Not to quote you twice but are you thinking about the so called Braswell chip Intel is talking up? If so that would have to be an extremely low end MBA. Apples A7 would perform about the same.
The slide were on some Chinese site. Since not many other western media were publishing report on IDF China. Anand had no news to confirm either.
Not Braswell, which many media were quoting as Skylake ( wrong ). But a Slide on possibility of Fanless PC with the Broadwell 14nm running at ~15W TDP range. So basically you dont get any CPU performance improvement from the previous Haswell CPU, you get 50% improvement in GPU, and a large drop of TDP.
The slide were on some Chinese site. Since not many other western media were publishing report on IDF China. Anand had no news to confirm either.
Must have missed that too.
Not Braswell, which many media were quoting as Skylake ( wrong ). But a Slide on possibility of Fanless PC with the Broadwell 14nm running at ~15W TDP range.
I really see problems with trying to run a fan less laptop at 15 watts. Plug in a 15 watt incandescent light bulb and grab ahold of it. Beyond that passively cooled industrial boards in that wattage range have huge heat sinks. Passive cooling of devices in this power range can be done with a suitable heatsink but most laptops aren't suitable.
There is a potential here if Apple redesigned the milled out chassis to also function as a heatsink. That is about the only way they could get enough aluminum bulk into the machine to effectively cool a 15 watt processor. Making that look good though may be a challenge for Apple.
So basically you dont get any CPU performance improvement from the previous Haswell CPU, you get 50% improvement in GPU, and a large drop of TDP.
Sounds about right and frankly is what Apple and the rest of the industry has been demanding of Intel. People want to put Intel into low powered devices and not get crap results. For most uses that means a focus on the GPU and not the CPU. Sucks if you need machines with better CPU performance though.
I really see problems with trying to run a fan less laptop at 15 watts. Plug in a 15 watt incandescent light bulb and grab ahold of it. Beyond that passively cooled industrial boards in that wattage range have huge heat sinks. Passive cooling of devices in this power range can be done with a suitable heatsink but most laptops aren't suitable.
There is a potential here if Apple redesigned the milled out chassis to also function as a heatsink. That is about the only way they could get enough aluminum bulk into the machine to effectively cool a 15 watt processor. Making that look good though may be a challenge for Apple.
Apple has been doing some high design work to dynamically change clock speed and do some other OS work to move maximum data through the CPU at minimum energy. If they can put something like the M7 in the MBA, they may squeeze out even more flops per watt. As long as Apple is using an industry standard CPU they will be optimizing everything else to make the MBA a better product then similar laptops. Vertical integration at it's best!
Must have missed that too.
I really see problems with trying to run a fan less laptop at 15 watts. Plug in a 15 watt incandescent light bulb and grab ahold of it. Beyond that passively cooled industrial boards in that wattage range have huge heat sinks. Passive cooling of devices in this power range can be done with a suitable heatsink but most laptops aren't suitable.
There is a potential here if Apple redesigned the milled out chassis to also function as a heatsink. That is about the only way they could get enough aluminum bulk into the machine to effectively cool a 15 watt processor. Making that look good though may be a challenge for Apple.
Sounds about right and frankly is what Apple and the rest of the industry has been demanding of Intel. People want to put Intel into low powered devices and not get crap results. For most uses that means a focus on the GPU and not the CPU. Sucks if you need machines with better CPU performance though.
I don't think you enter the 'fanless' TPD until you get to 7W.
Well HP already has an Fanless Ultrabook running with Core i5 Haswell. Yes, Poor HP gets no coverage or reviews, it was a pretty decent built machine.
Really, first I've heard of this machine. I have to wonder about performance and how quickly it thermally throttles. Do you have a model number we can search on, somebody would have reviewed the thing if it was at all worth it by now. I just don't follow Windows world hardware unless it is known to support Windows well.
So you can be assured only better performance or even lower power from Broadwell.
If Intel lives up to its own hype, it would be foolish to purchase an Air this year. However we have seen Intel not live up to its claims and frankly they have already slipped the release of Broadwell.
And Intel has since introduce SDP, scenario design power. Which is different to TDP.
Which doesn't help at all when it comes to grasping capabilities and performance one can expect. With everything we know about processors and performance I still see a need for a very significantly sized heat sink. If Apple goes this way I can see them using the CNC'ed case as that heat sink, optimizing the case for thermal transfer. Still 7, 12 or whatever watts, is a lot of power to handle in a very enclosed space.
As I mentioned in another thread all one has to do is take a 12 watt light bulb and put it in a tight container and watch how hot that container gets. Apples challenge will be to spread that heat across the whole housing quickly. I wouldn't be surprised to find heat pipe like solutions built into the case, maybe even some newfangled carbon fiber based solutions.
Speaking of carbon fiber has anyone heard any recent rumors about Apple going that route for a machine case? I know there appeared to be a big push in that direction a few years ago. The blogosphere sphere however has been silent on that for a long time now.
Speaking of carbon fiber has anyone heard any recent rumors about Apple going that route for a machine case? I know there appeared to be a big push in that direction a few years ago. The blogosphere sphere however has been silent on that for a long time now.
I don't think it's feasible. It doesn't dissipate heat, it can't be milled to the precision that a block of aluminum can, nor can it be milled to allow for special structural features, like mounting areas. I also don't think it can be as thin as milled aluminum which means that to get a particular strength it would need to be bulkier.
I don't think it's feasible. It doesn't dissipate heat, it can't be milled to the precision that a block of aluminum can, nor can it be milled to allow for special structural features, like mounting areas. I also don't think it can be as thin as milled aluminum which means that to get a particular strength it would need to be bulkier.
It's often used for light weight. Look at common use cases where carbon fiber is popular. Bicycle frames, tennis rackets, and tripods are 3 of the most frequent ones I know..
It's often used for light weight. Look at common use cases where carbon fiber is popular. Bicycle frames, tennis rackets, and tripods are 3 of the most frequent ones I know..
Sure, but those are structures that are much thicker and current MBP casing, don't need to have circuit boards and batteries adhered, or allow heat to dissipate. For larger items mold carbon fiber and epoxy obviously can be better than using metal but so far I've seen nothing that would indicate it would be thinner, lighter, or even close to being better (even if we ignore costs) than using milled aluminium.
The closest usage in a MBP might be the bottom panel since it's mostly flat, only has screw holes (not screw mounts), and is used more for protection than for structural integrity like the top part of the chassis or strong metal display top.
I don't think it's feasible. It doesn't dissipate heat, it can't be milled to the precision that a block of aluminum can, nor can it be milled to allow for special structural features, like mounting areas. I also don't think it can be as thin as milled aluminum which means that to get a particular strength it would need to be bulkier.
Actually the carbon fibers that are good for heat dissipation are structurally different than the stuff used to build stiff structures. When properly used carbon finer is one of the best conductors of heat we have. There is on going research to use it in rifle barrels to conduct heat away from the liner for example. It is a very interesting material really and likewise there has been research into heat sinks for high performance electronics.
As for milling you wouldn't do that at all, instead it has to be molded in to a net shape or near net shape. Actually milling carbon fiber is very expensive because it wears tooling incredibly fast. The molding processes can actually give you really strong products as you can put material where you need it. The common application here is boats, airplanes and other things that need high strength and light weight.
Sure, but those are structures that are much thicker and current MBP casing, don't need to have circuit boards and batteries adhered, or allow heat to dissipate. For larger items mold carbon fiber and epoxy obviously can be better than using metal but so far I've seen nothing that would indicate it would be thinner, lighter, or even close to being better (even if we ignore costs) than using milled aluminium.
Costs are significant but if Apple has no other way to remove heat then it is about the only alternative to aluminum. Interestingly Sapphire is a good conductor of heat. I could see Apple using Sapphire as a heat spreader in a laptop or even a iPad. It would be an expensive choice but maybe more reliable and easier to integrate into existing aluminum housings.
The closest usage in a MBP might be the bottom panel since it's mostly flat, only has screw holes (not screw mounts), and is used more for protection than for structural integrity like the top part of the chassis or strong metal display top.
I think you are missing just how rigid this stuff can be, it is often used to make structures that are far more rigid for their weight than can be accomplished with Aluminum. The frames for many space based telescopes are carbon fiber for example.
Actually the carbon fibers that are good for heat dissipation are structurally different than the stuff used to build stiff structures. When properly used carbon finer is one of the best conductors of heat we have. There is on going research to use it in rifle barrels to conduct heat away from the liner for example. It is a very interesting material really and likewise there has been research into heat sinks for high performance electronics.
As for milling you wouldn't do that at all, instead it has to be molded in to a net shape or near net shape. Actually milling carbon fiber is very expensive because it wears tooling incredibly fast. The molding processes can actually give you really strong products as you can put material where you need it. The common application here is boats, airplanes and other things that need high strength and light weight.
Can CF be as thin and as strong as the thinnest part of the MBP chassis? What about the resin and heat dissipation since it's about the total material, not just one element.
Sure, but those are structures that are much thicker and current MBP casing, don't need to have circuit boards and batteries adhered, or allow heat to dissipate. For larger items mold carbon fiber and epoxy obviously can be better than using metal but so far I've seen nothing that would indicate it would be thinner, lighter, or even close to being better (even if we ignore costs) than using milled aluminium.
The closest usage in a MBP might be the bottom panel since it's mostly flat, only has screw holes (not screw mounts), and is used more for protection than for structural integrity like the top part of the chassis or strong metal display top.
It doesn't conduct a lot of heat, which is one of the reasons it's popular for various tripods. It can be set up in cold weather without extreme hand discomfort. I don't know that they really use the shell for heat dissipation. It gets hot, but nothing about the cooling channels really suggests that the use of aluminum improves temperature levels. I mentioned the prior stuff due to it offering a better ratio between weight and tensile strength for some of those applications. It's only used in more expensive items presumably due to higher manufacturing costs compared to aluminum. I'm not sure how it would compare to machined aluminum, as that is likely to be much more labor intensive.
Can CF be as thin and as strong as the thinnest part of the MBP chassis?
Good question to which I don't have a good answer. You are talking about material with different characteristics. For instance deformed aluminum might not spring back while a carbon fiber unit may.
What about the resin and heat dissipation since it's about the total material, not just one element.
Some really interesting stuff is happening out there when it comes to cooling electronics. Not that these solutions aren't simple matrices of carbon blinded in epoxy. I don't have time to look for further information but there are al sorts of interesting things happening in labs related to the use of various forms of carbon for heat removal.
There are a number of ways to put the various forms of carbon to work on heat transfer. The question is how do you do it in a mass produced laptop computer. That isn't an easy question to answer. I'm still thinking that coupling the CPU directly to the CNC'ed aluminum housing might do the trick for Apple if they went with an ARM based solution. I'm just not convinced that Intel has the right solution.
Comments
Not to quote you twice but are you thinking about the so called Braswell chip Intel is talking up? If so that would have to be an extremely low end MBA. Apples A7 would perform about the same.
The slide were on some Chinese site. Since not many other western media were publishing report on IDF China. Anand had no news to confirm either.
Not Braswell, which many media were quoting as Skylake ( wrong ). But a Slide on possibility of Fanless PC with the Broadwell 14nm running at ~15W TDP range. So basically you dont get any CPU performance improvement from the previous Haswell CPU, you get 50% improvement in GPU, and a large drop of TDP.
There is a potential here if Apple redesigned the milled out chassis to also function as a heatsink. That is about the only way they could get enough aluminum bulk into the machine to effectively cool a 15 watt processor. Making that look good though may be a challenge for Apple.
Sounds about right and frankly is what Apple and the rest of the industry has been demanding of Intel. People want to put Intel into low powered devices and not get crap results. For most uses that means a focus on the GPU and not the CPU. Sucks if you need machines with better CPU performance though.
I really see problems with trying to run a fan less laptop at 15 watts. Plug in a 15 watt incandescent light bulb and grab ahold of it. Beyond that passively cooled industrial boards in that wattage range have huge heat sinks. Passive cooling of devices in this power range can be done with a suitable heatsink but most laptops aren't suitable.
There is a potential here if Apple redesigned the milled out chassis to also function as a heatsink. That is about the only way they could get enough aluminum bulk into the machine to effectively cool a 15 watt processor. Making that look good though may be a challenge for Apple.
Apple has been doing some high design work to dynamically change clock speed and do some other OS work to move maximum data through the CPU at minimum energy. If they can put something like the M7 in the MBA, they may squeeze out even more flops per watt. As long as Apple is using an industry standard CPU they will be optimizing everything else to make the MBA a better product then similar laptops. Vertical integration at it's best!
I don't think you enter the 'fanless' TPD until you get to 7W.
I don't think you enter the 'fanless' TPD until you get to 7W.
Well HP already has an Fanless Ultrabook running with Core i5 Haswell. Yes, Poor HP gets no coverage or reviews, it was a pretty decent built machine.
So you can be assured only better performance or even lower power from Broadwell.
And Intel has since introduce SDP, scenario design power. Which is different to TDP.
Which doesn't help at all when it comes to grasping capabilities and performance one can expect. With everything we know about processors and performance I still see a need for a very significantly sized heat sink. If Apple goes this way I can see them using the CNC'ed case as that heat sink, optimizing the case for thermal transfer. Still 7, 12 or whatever watts, is a lot of power to handle in a very enclosed space.
As I mentioned in another thread all one has to do is take a 12 watt light bulb and put it in a tight container and watch how hot that container gets. Apples challenge will be to spread that heat across the whole housing quickly. I wouldn't be surprised to find heat pipe like solutions built into the case, maybe even some newfangled carbon fiber based solutions.
I don't think it's feasible. It doesn't dissipate heat, it can't be milled to the precision that a block of aluminum can, nor can it be milled to allow for special structural features, like mounting areas. I also don't think it can be as thin as milled aluminum which means that to get a particular strength it would need to be bulkier.
I don't think it's feasible. It doesn't dissipate heat, it can't be milled to the precision that a block of aluminum can, nor can it be milled to allow for special structural features, like mounting areas. I also don't think it can be as thin as milled aluminum which means that to get a particular strength it would need to be bulkier.
It's often used for light weight. Look at common use cases where carbon fiber is popular. Bicycle frames, tennis rackets, and tripods are 3 of the most frequent ones I know..
Sure, but those are structures that are much thicker and current MBP casing, don't need to have circuit boards and batteries adhered, or allow heat to dissipate. For larger items mold carbon fiber and epoxy obviously can be better than using metal but so far I've seen nothing that would indicate it would be thinner, lighter, or even close to being better (even if we ignore costs) than using milled aluminium.
The closest usage in a MBP might be the bottom panel since it's mostly flat, only has screw holes (not screw mounts), and is used more for protection than for structural integrity like the top part of the chassis or strong metal display top.
Actually the carbon fibers that are good for heat dissipation are structurally different than the stuff used to build stiff structures. When properly used carbon finer is one of the best conductors of heat we have. There is on going research to use it in rifle barrels to conduct heat away from the liner for example. It is a very interesting material really and likewise there has been research into heat sinks for high performance electronics.
As for milling you wouldn't do that at all, instead it has to be molded in to a net shape or near net shape. Actually milling carbon fiber is very expensive because it wears tooling incredibly fast. The molding processes can actually give you really strong products as you can put material where you need it. The common application here is boats, airplanes and other things that need high strength and light weight.
I think you are missing just how rigid this stuff can be, it is often used to make structures that are far more rigid for their weight than can be accomplished with Aluminum. The frames for many space based telescopes are carbon fiber for example.
Can CF be as thin and as strong as the thinnest part of the MBP chassis? What about the resin and heat dissipation since it's about the total material, not just one element.
Sure, but those are structures that are much thicker and current MBP casing, don't need to have circuit boards and batteries adhered, or allow heat to dissipate. For larger items mold carbon fiber and epoxy obviously can be better than using metal but so far I've seen nothing that would indicate it would be thinner, lighter, or even close to being better (even if we ignore costs) than using milled aluminium.
The closest usage in a MBP might be the bottom panel since it's mostly flat, only has screw holes (not screw mounts), and is used more for protection than for structural integrity like the top part of the chassis or strong metal display top.
It doesn't conduct a lot of heat, which is one of the reasons it's popular for various tripods. It can be set up in cold weather without extreme hand discomfort. I don't know that they really use the shell for heat dissipation. It gets hot, but nothing about the cooling channels really suggests that the use of aluminum improves temperature levels. I mentioned the prior stuff due to it offering a better ratio between weight and tensile strength for some of those applications. It's only used in more expensive items presumably due to higher manufacturing costs compared to aluminum. I'm not sure how it would compare to machined aluminum, as that is likely to be much more labor intensive.
Here is a link with information on a carbon foam solution to heat removal: http://web.ornl.gov/~webworks/cpr/rpt/106741_.pdf. Here is info on a carbon fiber solution: http://marketplace.yet2.com/app/insight/techofweek/33192?sid=350. Here is another solution using Carbon nano tubes: http://www.extremetech.com/extreme/175457-this-carbon-nanotube-heatsink-is-six-times-more-thermally-conductive-could-trigger-a-revolution-in-cpu-clock-speeds.
Some really interesting stuff is happening out there when it comes to cooling electronics. Not that these solutions aren't simple matrices of carbon blinded in epoxy. I don't have time to look for further information but there are al sorts of interesting things happening in labs related to the use of various forms of carbon for heat removal.
Wikipedia has some interesting info: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Thermal_conductivity. Which shows that diamond and Graphene are also great conductors of hear. Again forms of carbon.
There are a number of ways to put the various forms of carbon to work on heat transfer. The question is how do you do it in a mass produced laptop computer. That isn't an easy question to answer. I'm still thinking that coupling the CPU directly to the CNC'ed aluminum housing might do the trick for Apple if they went with an ARM based solution. I'm just not convinced that Intel has the right solution.