<strong>Murk, that just wouldn't be worth it, and it wouldn't imagine what kind of concessions Apple would have to make to add the functionality. It just makes so much more sense to make a cheap plastic housing as Canon and Nikon have done. And like I said, submersibility is highly exaggerated most of the time. This camera's going to need a battery slot and a card slot. It's also going to need a FireWire or USB port...possibly video out and such...If it's going to do video, it's also going to need a microphone...Don't you see how impossible a task this is going to be?
</strong><hr></blockquote>
I was hoping no one would bring up the ports and the microphone. I knew it would shoot down the whole waterproof thing. Ah, well, even if I can't put it in my swim trunks, I'd be interested if it was both an excellent still camera and a video camcorder in one.
You should wait untill a few people who know what they're doing have had a chance to use it extensively before you declare it the greatest thing out there.</strong><hr></blockquote>
The link I posted was to a professional photographer's website. He's been using a Foveon imager based protoype for while now.
Anyway, I've seen plenty of photos from the new crop of pro SLRs. They're certainly nice. I want a D100 myself, but they don't compare.
Just look at these resolution charts and see for yourself:
You see all those colors coming from a black & white subject? This does not happen with the Foveon imager... Also notice the weird dot/artifacts in the Canon shot.
Look at the blatantly obvious moire pattern in the center of the D1x res. chart image...the circle. Look at the diagonal resolution chart...nasty!
These additional colors really hurt the maximum detail these cameras can put out.
Here's a crop from the a res chart photo taken with a Foveon based camera...by Phil Askey, the guy who runs <a href="http://www.dpreview.com"; target="_blank">www.dpreview.com</a> :
<strong>Am I missing something. If I buy 100 macs, I get 100 OS X disks. I guess when the next upgrade comes I only have to pay for one disk to update the 100 machines. However, I can update all of the machines over the net for free anyway. So apple is offering free OS upgrades from now on?? Oh boy....
So what's the deal or am I just tired.</strong><hr></blockquote>
If you remember, Apple charges for any OS update ending in a 0 or a 5. And has done so since 7.5 If you bought Mac OS X 10.0 you can upgrade clear to the current version without paying. Popular opinion has been that the next version will be 10.2 Don't fool yourselves. It could just as easily be 10.5 and it would require a purchase to upgrade.
- essentially, the foveon chip can combine pixels into groups - super-pixels - thus scaling the resolution instantly to something a DV format can handle. In essence, your high res still camera can instantly become a high quality (but lower res) video camera. This also reduces the s/n ratio, allowing better low-light photography.
The best bit:
<strong>
"And since the sizing of pixels can be done in an instant, a Foveon X3 image sensor can capture a high-resolution still photo in the midst of recording video."</strong>
- essentially, the foveon chip can combine pixels into groups - super-pixels - thus scaling the resolution instantly to something a DV format can handle. In essence, your high res still camera can instantly become a high quality (but lower res) video camera. This also reduces the s/n ratio, allowing better low-light photography.
The best bit:
[qb]
"And since the sizing of pixels can be done in an instant, a Foveon X3 image sensor can capture a high-resolution still photo in the midst of recording video."</strong>
if nothing else, maybe someone should forward this link to everyone and anyone at apple. this has SERIOUS ooh-aah factor for us gadget *****s. </strong><hr></blockquote>
okay, why did the board bullet out my use of the word "w h o r e"??? geez... <img src="graemlins/oyvey.gif" border="0" alt="[No]" />
I don't know anything about waterproofing or materials for underwater cameras, but why couldn't the Lucida use a saphire crystal lens cover (just like high end watches)? It would be very hard to scratch that even w/ salt and sand. Is its transmittance too low for high quality optics?
[quote] - essentially, the foveon chip can combine pixels into groups - super-pixels - thus scaling the resolution instantly to something a DV format can handle. In essence, your high res still camera can instantly become a high quality (but lower res) video camera. This also reduces the s/n ratio, allowing better low-light photography. <hr></blockquote>
Now this would be too cool if it put rudimentary Hi-Def into consumer hands... if it's recording to HardDrive, in native Quicktime. Of course iMovie won'twork with Hi-Def, though... so it's wishful thinking on my part I'm sure.
I don't know anything about waterproofing or materials for underwater cameras, but why couldn't the Lucida use a saphire crystal lens cover (just like high end watches)? It would be very hard to scratch that even w/ salt and sand. Is its transmittance too low for high quality optics?
Thoth</strong><hr></blockquote>
A crystal saphir lenses for watch cost approximatively 100 $ it is resistant to scratch but not so resistant to shock.
Now this would be too cool if it put rudimentary Hi-Def into consumer hands... if it's recording to HardDrive, in native Quicktime. Of course iMovie won'twork with Hi-Def, though... so it's wishful thinking on my part I'm sure.</strong><hr></blockquote>
speaking of hard drive, i do want to point out that the IPOD now has a nice 10 gig plug-n-play hard drive and a firewire port on its top. can anyone else see inserting the ipod into the camera to act as a hot-swappable extra hard drive? we all wondered why the ipod got such a generic moniker. maybe it was that apple had bigger plans for it later on, not just for music (true, 10 gigs will fille up quick with video, but it can't be too long before there's a 20 gig version, and that's getting pretty nice for a casual consumer's home movies of washing their dog and their kid's birthday).
damn, i hope apple is reading this thread and taking some notes...
It's still expensive and won't debut on any consumer camera for a while yet. The Nikon does have color artifacts but the canon does better. One interesting thing to note is that the Foveon is producing a 3+ MP image while other pro SLR's are producing a 6MP image. Down-converting a 6MP image to 3MP with a good scan utility would remove any Bayer artifacts and give just about the same resolution as the 3MP foveon, but not as much detail.
The advantages of the foveon would appear to be less processing, and easy video modes/fast (combined pixel) shooting modes (for more light sensitivity). Price currently goes to bayer pattern offerings. They do compare, and neither is truly a revelation in image quality untill they get about double the amount of pixels they now sport.
The best film scanners seem to be able to extract perciptible improvements in resolution at 4000dpi (which people are guessing is the limit of high quality film) So we can get 12-16MP images out of a Coolscan'd 35mm exposure. No digital SLR is really close to that yet. At least one more year for pro SLR's and at 3 more for pro/consumer. Scary to think what you could get out of a good scanner and a medium format film!!!
Untill then, you needn't fuss over the sensor pattern too much. However, when it gets REALLY CROWDED with pixels in those sensors, then the Foveon should have a distinct advantage. If it were cheap, I'd give it the advantage already, especially for combo-cameras (still+video)
they do compare, for now. That's all I meant, for the price bayer's aren't doing too badly.
Flovion... Not likely. It just barely went into production. Besides, With those apps that apple has already released and those apps that apple and Steve have hinted at. A super high end camera is not likely. Something more similar to <a href="http://www.americas.creative.com/products/product.asp?product=56&category=6&maincategory=6"; target="_blank"> Creatives Video blaster </a> are more likely. They need a camera that can do decent still shots, stream video like a webcam and capture a little video, say about 40 to 45 minures worth. That could be done without a tape if a a 10 Gig ipod like drive were used. DV occupies 1 gig per 4.5 minutes of video. Firewire in a good probability. What if it could back up to an ipod. to allow additional shooting. Or if it clips onto an iPod for storage purposes. Further still, if offlineRT was used for data storage, then a 10 gig drive could hold 400 minutes of video.
What if the camera had a 10 GB HD, AND a G4 CPU so that one could encode using a QT codec on the fly? I don't know the compression offhand, but wouldn't that allow for HOURS of video footage to be stored on 10 GB? Would it be difficult to build a small mobo+CPU unit that was specialized at compressing DV on the fly in real time? Would such a beast even need a G4? Would a G3 work? Would the iPod's CPUs work?
EDIT: is that what you mean, plague bearer, by oflineRT?
Yeah the G4 would be unlikely, but it IS an embedded processor.
Actually I would rather Apple focus on offering competitive hardware instead of wasting their time on cameras. There are already plenty of nice cameras on the market.
Comments
<strong>Murk, that just wouldn't be worth it, and it wouldn't imagine what kind of concessions Apple would have to make to add the functionality. It just makes so much more sense to make a cheap plastic housing as Canon and Nikon have done. And like I said, submersibility is highly exaggerated most of the time. This camera's going to need a battery slot and a card slot. It's also going to need a FireWire or USB port...possibly video out and such...If it's going to do video, it's also going to need a microphone...Don't you see how impossible a task this is going to be?
</strong><hr></blockquote>
I was hoping no one would bring up the ports and the microphone. I knew it would shoot down the whole waterproof thing. Ah, well, even if I can't put it in my swim trunks, I'd be interested if it was both an excellent still camera and a video camcorder in one.
<strong><other stuff snipped>
You should wait untill a few people who know what they're doing have had a chance to use it extensively before you declare it the greatest thing out there.</strong><hr></blockquote>
The link I posted was to a professional photographer's website. He's been using a Foveon imager based protoype for while now.
Anyway, I've seen plenty of photos from the new crop of pro SLRs. They're certainly nice. I want a D100 myself, but they don't compare.
Just look at these resolution charts and see for yourself:
<a href="http://www.dpreview.com/articles/nikond100/page12.asp"; target="_blank">http://www.dpreview.com/articles/nikond100/page12.asp</a>;
You see all those colors coming from a black & white subject? This does not happen with the Foveon imager... Also notice the weird dot/artifacts in the Canon shot.
Look at the blatantly obvious moire pattern in the center of the D1x res. chart image...the circle. Look at the diagonal resolution chart...nasty!
These additional colors really hurt the maximum detail these cameras can put out.
Here's a crop from the a res chart photo taken with a Foveon based camera...by Phil Askey, the guy who runs <a href="http://www.dpreview.com"; target="_blank">www.dpreview.com</a> :
<a href="http://www.dpreview.com/news/0202/02021103foveonx3preview.asp"; target="_blank">http://www.dpreview.com/news/0202/02021103foveonx3preview.asp</a>;
The Foveon CCD isn't some legend or myth...it is very real.
EDIT: no external links to dpreview images...
[ 05-27-2002: Message edited by: Eugene ]</p>
Can you say, handjob?
SethMonster
<strong>Am I missing something. If I buy 100 macs, I get 100 OS X disks. I guess when the next upgrade comes I only have to pay for one disk to update the 100 machines. However, I can update all of the machines over the net for free anyway. So apple is offering free OS upgrades from now on?? Oh boy....
So what's the deal or am I just tired.</strong><hr></blockquote>
If you remember, Apple charges for any OS update ending in a 0 or a 5. And has done so since 7.5 If you bought Mac OS X 10.0 you can upgrade clear to the current version without paying. Popular opinion has been that the next version will be 10.2 Don't fool yourselves. It could just as easily be 10.5 and it would require a purchase to upgrade.
<img src="graemlins/oyvey.gif" border="0" alt="[No]" />
<a href="http://www.foveon.net/X3_vps.html"; target="_blank">http://www.foveon.net/X3_vps.html</a>;
- essentially, the foveon chip can combine pixels into groups - super-pixels - thus scaling the resolution instantly to something a DV format can handle. In essence, your high res still camera can instantly become a high quality (but lower res) video camera. This also reduces the s/n ratio, allowing better low-light photography.
The best bit:
<strong>
"And since the sizing of pixels can be done in an instant, a Foveon X3 image sensor can capture a high-resolution still photo in the midst of recording video."</strong>
[ 05-27-2002: Message edited by: Gee4orce ]</p>
DVD video is 500 lines horizontal isn't it? We've had CMOS sensors for about six dollars capable of that for years now..
I don't want to pretend I know what I'm talking about so any explination of my ignorance would be welcome
<strong>Whoa - there may be something in this rumour...
<a href="http://www.foveon.net/X3_vps.html"; target="_blank">http://www.foveon.net/X3_vps.html</a>;
- essentially, the foveon chip can combine pixels into groups - super-pixels - thus scaling the resolution instantly to something a DV format can handle. In essence, your high res still camera can instantly become a high quality (but lower res) video camera. This also reduces the s/n ratio, allowing better low-light photography.
The best bit:
[qb]
"And since the sizing of pixels can be done in an instant, a Foveon X3 image sensor can capture a high-resolution still photo in the midst of recording video."</strong>
[ 05-27-2002: Message edited by: Gee4orce ][/QB]<hr></blockquote>
if nothing else, maybe someone should forward this link to everyone and anyone at apple. this has SERIOUS ooh-aah factor for us gadget *****s.
<strong>
if nothing else, maybe someone should forward this link to everyone and anyone at apple. this has SERIOUS ooh-aah factor for us gadget *****s.
okay, why did the board bullet out my use of the word "w h o r e"??? geez... <img src="graemlins/oyvey.gif" border="0" alt="[No]" />
I don't know anything about waterproofing or materials for underwater cameras, but why couldn't the Lucida use a saphire crystal lens cover (just like high end watches)? It would be very hard to scratch that even w/ salt and sand. Is its transmittance too low for high quality optics?
Thoth
Now this would be too cool if it put rudimentary Hi-Def into consumer hands... if it's recording to HardDrive, in native Quicktime. Of course iMovie won'twork with Hi-Def, though... so it's wishful thinking on my part I'm sure.
<strong>Eugene -
I don't know anything about waterproofing or materials for underwater cameras, but why couldn't the Lucida use a saphire crystal lens cover (just like high end watches)? It would be very hard to scratch that even w/ salt and sand. Is its transmittance too low for high quality optics?
Thoth</strong><hr></blockquote>
A crystal saphir lenses for watch cost approximatively 100 $ it is resistant to scratch but not so resistant to shock.
<strong>
Now this would be too cool if it put rudimentary Hi-Def into consumer hands... if it's recording to HardDrive, in native Quicktime. Of course iMovie won'twork with Hi-Def, though... so it's wishful thinking on my part I'm sure.</strong><hr></blockquote>
speaking of hard drive, i do want to point out that the IPOD now has a nice 10 gig plug-n-play hard drive and a firewire port on its top. can anyone else see inserting the ipod into the camera to act as a hot-swappable extra hard drive? we all wondered why the ipod got such a generic moniker. maybe it was that apple had bigger plans for it later on, not just for music (true, 10 gigs will fille up quick with video, but it can't be too long before there's a 20 gig version, and that's getting pretty nice for a casual consumer's home movies of washing their dog and their kid's birthday).
damn, i hope apple is reading this thread and taking some notes...
The advantages of the foveon would appear to be less processing, and easy video modes/fast (combined pixel) shooting modes (for more light sensitivity). Price currently goes to bayer pattern offerings. They do compare, and neither is truly a revelation in image quality untill they get about double the amount of pixels they now sport.
The best film scanners seem to be able to extract perciptible improvements in resolution at 4000dpi (which people are guessing is the limit of high quality film) So we can get 12-16MP images out of a Coolscan'd 35mm exposure. No digital SLR is really close to that yet. At least one more year for pro SLR's and at 3 more for pro/consumer. Scary to think what you could get out of a good scanner and a medium format film!!!
Untill then, you needn't fuss over the sensor pattern too much. However, when it gets REALLY CROWDED with pixels in those sensors, then the Foveon should have a distinct advantage. If it were cheap, I'd give it the advantage already, especially for combo-cameras (still+video)
they do compare, for now. That's all I meant, for the price bayer's aren't doing too badly.
[ 05-27-2002: Message edited by: Matsu ]
[ 05-27-2002: Message edited by: Matsu ]</p>
EDIT: is that what you mean, plague bearer, by oflineRT?
[ 05-27-2002: Message edited by: Junkyard Dawg ]</p>
That sounds pretty likely. Even if it only had the 5GB drive, that's still a lot of photos and/or a lot of footage.
Actually I would rather Apple focus on offering competitive hardware instead of wasting their time on cameras. There are already plenty of nice cameras on the market.