First look: Apple's new aesthetic for OS X Yosemite

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  • Reply 121 of 168
    Quote:
    Originally Posted by Red Rogers View Post

     

    I wish Apple would finally end this Sturm und Drang aesthetic metamorphosis and get on with revamping major parts of the OS. What I keep hoping for is another Leopard- Snow Leopard release cycle, catching - and surpassing - competing operating systems in core technologies. Instead, Apple seems to be focussing on window dressing and extensions, and less on major components that need updating or overhaul, like the woeful file system, kludgy Finder, and awkward networking. Losing focus, Apple.


     

    Quote:
    Originally Posted by iaeen View Post

     

    You complained that, in your opinion, OSX was being subsumed by iOS. I'm just saying that this process that you are lamenting might be due to the very same unpreventable market forces that you cite. With this in mind, I find it hard to agree with your assessment that Apple is losing focus. On the contrary, they are doing exactly what they need to do to survive.


     

    See my original post above.

     

    Your comments:

     

    1. re: OS X subsumed by iOS - unpreventable market forces?

     

    Levelling and homogenizing OS X and iOS technologies aren't necessarily a concern for me. It could be larger market forces at work, or the deliberate actions of Apple's braintrust, or both, or more. Who really knows? What I do know is that I still need desktop, workstation and server operating systems. The features Apple keeps adding to OS X are all fine and well, but could it just FTFF already? And replace HFS or at least offer a better alternative? Apple started to do both these things in the past, but stopped short or killed the project for various reasons. But now that Apple is so wealthy, large and powerful, I think it no longer has any excuses. Again, hardcore Unix infrastructure and Intel iron brought the critical mass of IT users back to Mac OS X to ensure its short term survivability, and iOS have added many consumers to that as well. I think Apple needs to truly get back to the Mac and address these long-running concerns.

     

    2. re: losing focus – you don't agree – they are doing what the need to survive.

     

    I think Apple is safely way beyond the 'beleaguered' survival stage at this point. Again, my question is, what prevents them from addressing the major core OS issues at the same time? It seems to me, the answer is that they don't consider it (as) important, and by extension, OS X is being dumbed down (streamlined, euphemistically), and that a robust and bullet-proof file system is no longer a priority. Ditto for the Finder - why bother if Cocoa Touch is the way forward for a combined interface? I am certainly not the only one to come to this conclusion.

     

    Regardless, these issues I raised are well-founded and vocalised elsewhere, and certainly no justification for the vitriol I have been subjected to in this thread.

  • Reply 122 of 168
    frxntierfrxntier Posts: 97member
    red rogers wrote: »
    Now I see how you racked up those 16,813 posts (over 500 per day on AppleInsider alone!) in a little over 2.5 years.
    Let me be of assistance. I'll take your numbers.

    31 months = 930 days
    16818 / 930 = 18 posts per day.

    18 is not equal to 500.

    MathS is used across Britain, Australia and NZ and various other countries. Not that the use of the word indicates the level of competency (or maybe it does?)
  • Reply 123 of 168
    iaeeniaeen Posts: 588member
    red rogers wrote: »

    I think Apple is safely way beyond the 'beleaguered' survival stage at this point. Again, my question is, what prevents them from addressing the major core OS issues at the same time? It seems to me, the answer is that they don't consider it (as) important, and by extension, OS X is being dumbed down (streamlined, euphemistically), and that a robust and bullet-proof file system is no longer a priority. Ditto for the Finder - why bother if Cocoa Touch is the way forward for a combined interface? I am certainly not the only one to come to this conclusion.

    Regardless, these issues I raised are well-founded and vocalised elsewhere, and certainly no justification for the vitriol I have been subjected to in this thread.

    No tech company is beyond the survival stage. As soon as they start thinking they are, someone else will come along and blow them out of the water.

    I totally agree that all the things you mention aren't a priority for Apple. Where we disagree is whether or not these things *should* be a priority. To be honest, I have no idea what you are talking about. These file systems are totally alien to me and, I would guess, at least 99% of people using OSX. That being the case, working on these things isn't going to help Apple sell Macs. Apple isn't losing focus, they just aren't focusing on what you want them to.

    You are being treated poorly not because of the issues you raised, but because of your attitude. We get a lot of trolls here that show up and accuse Apple of losing its touch. The pattern has repeated itself over and over. The somewhat rough welcome did have some opportunity to explain your position, but instead you got offended and started throwing insults. I've been on this site a long time (I read a whole lot more than I post) and I can tell you that you have managed to piss off some people who are normally very fair minded and extremely knowledgable (along with, I'll admit, some people who are less so). As long as you continue the attitude of being on a crusade against the Apple fanatics, you will continue to be ridiculed, regardless of how well formed your opinions are, until you are eventually banned.
  • Reply 124 of 168
    Quote:
    Originally Posted by iaeen View Post





    No tech company is beyond the survival stage. As soon as they start thinking they are, someone else will come along and blow them out of the water.



    I totally agree that all the things you mention aren't a priority for Apple. Where we disagree is whether or not these things *should* be a priority. To be honest, I have no idea what you are talking about. These file systems are totally alien to me and, I would guess, at least 99% of people using OSX. That being the case, working on these things isn't going to help Apple sell Macs. Apple isn't losing focus, they just aren't focusing on what you want them to.



    You are being treated poorly not because of the issues you raised, but because of your attitude. We get a lot of trolls here that show up and accuse Apple of losing its touch. The pattern has repeated itself over and over. The somewhat rough welcome did have some opportunity to explain your position, but instead you got offended and started throwing insults. I've been on this site a long time (I read a whole lot more than I post) and I can tell you that you have managed to piss off some people who are normally very fair minded and extremely knowledgable (along with, I'll admit, some people who are less so). As long as you continue the attitude of being on a crusade against the Apple fanatics, you will continue to be ridiculed, regardless of how well formed your opinions are, until you are eventually banned.

     

    Or, maybe you and your ilk are just too thin-skinned, as you seem to lump everything which is less than congratulatory into the same target box. For example, you launched a tirade at me and you apparently had not even read my initial posts. As soon as one of your homies sounds a battle cry against an invader, you're all ready to attack.

     

    I have been reading AppleInsider since the 90s and am as much an Apple fan as anyone on this site. I don't need anyone here to lecture me, and I certainly gained nothing from this process from people who don't know or care what a file system is all about.

     

    As I said previously, some things never change in Apple land. What goes around comes around. Remember that.

  • Reply 125 of 168
    asdasdasdasd Posts: 5,678member
    red rogers wrote: »
    You are misrepresenting and exaggerating what I have said ("you feel OSX is doing a poor job at core OS tasks"), but I'm happy to repeat what has been posted previously. Look at this post:


    So, to answer your question:

    file systems: ZFS and forked variants are way better than HFS - see FreeBSD, Solaris; btrfs - Linux; ReFS - Windows Server - maybe desktop (soon).

    Finder: still the best for the masses, but it still leaves so much to be desired. See above. Not hard to find well-seasoned, respectable opinions on the Finder's shortcomings ....

    Networking:  in heterogenous environments, the Windows and Unix ecosystems are (far) better. No one takes OS X Server seriously anymore – even Apple – so the domain for this problem is considerably smaller in Mac-land.

    Security: see above. Generally, Mac OS X is far better for end users than most OSs; still, some Apple technologies like Safari have been vulnerable from time to time. Apple has also been somewhat lackadaisical at patching recent, high-profile vulnerabilities. See also comment related to Server above.

    Browsers: Safari has lagged Chrome and Firefox in features and security, arguably, and memory leaks have been a persistent problem. It has improved a lot since version 7, but it still has issues.

    So not so bad then. Just bad against the potential perfect world of non existant OSes ( networking and file system aside) rather than the competition. And Safari is not an OS release. It can continue to add security, as it should, between cycles. They have sandboxed tabs and windows into their own processes since mavericks and fixed numerous security issues. It keeps getting updated.

    Good news to white background haters. Yosemite has a dark mode. iOS 8 has a greyscale mode.
    Both have API and settings to largely change the size of the font across the system. All mentioned in the state of the union ( where they advised devs to be careful about transparency and readability.). Although not mentioned I am pretty sure that sidebar transparency can be turned off just as the menu bar transparency can be.
  • Reply 126 of 168
    crowleycrowley Posts: 9,098member
    solipsismx wrote: »
    Based your definition Time Machine also isn't an app because it's in the Menu Bar but not in the Dock.
    Time Machine used to be in the dock, to my knowledge it still can be, and I think it still should be by default. If you click it in the menu bar iirc you get a menu, and from there you can open an app window. If you click it in the sock you go straight to the app window. That's the conceptual difference - menu bar goes to menu, or a little bit of widget-ish small UI in a pop up in the top right corner; dock goes to app window.
    solipsismx wrote: »
    The .app file is under Applications
    I'm not going to dispute what the package is, I'm talking about the difference in concept between things that live in the menu bar and things that live in the dock, and how they behave.
    solipsismx wrote: »
    but that doesn't ever propagate in the Dock; when it's called it does something unique, like Spotlight. Alfred, the app that looks very much like the new Spotlight, also gets called the same way and doesn't live in your Dock and yet it's very much an app.
    Alfred also does the wrong thing, in my opinion.
  • Reply 127 of 168
    crowleycrowley Posts: 9,098member
    Tbh I think they should just make the Spotlight app the default window when you click Finder.
  • Reply 128 of 168
    frxntierfrxntier Posts: 97member
    crowley wrote: »
    Tbh I think they should just make the Spotlight app the default window when you click Finder.
    Then how would one access Finder? What a ridiculous thing to say. Now you're just trolling.
  • Reply 129 of 168
    pbpb Posts: 4,237member
    Quote:
    Originally Posted by Red Rogers View Post

     

    The demise of the desktop PC, if it ever happens, will be no more preventable than extinction or natural selection. But I think nature (or the markets) will have the final say, not some pundit or self-proclaimed expert. For my (Mac) use cases, it isn't conceivable that iOS and related devices could even meet any of my current or near-term requirements. Although some users have settled for (and may be happy with) iPads or other tablets exclusively, they probably never needed a desktop (or notebook) computer in the first instance. 


     

    Well, although I agree generally, no one can predict what the future in personal computing will exactly be. Perhaps, when miniaturization, storage and performance will advance even more, all we will need as a computer will be the equivalent in volume of a matches box, that can be taken away everywhere and just be connected to some display and input devices in order to load a full-fledged operating system. But for now, I also understand that many users settle for tablets (almost) exclusively because this is exactly what they needed in the first place. I believe this is a non-negligible percentage of the general population. Apparently Apple saw the potential and acted accordingly.

     

    Quote:

    Originally Posted by Red Rogers View Post

     

    I think Apple has great vision. I just think they have neglected very important components of OS X for far too long, like the Finder, the file system, networking and security.



     

    The Finder is such an old story. I don't see any rational explanation for this neglect. Perhaps it has its roots in the NeXTSTEP origin of Mac OS X, although there were some nice features that never made it in Mac OS X. It will be a subject of study for the technology historians of the future.

     

    But can you elaborate on the security aspect? It is true that in a few cases in the past Apple has been slow in issuing some security updates, but that was it (according to my knowledge).

  • Reply 130 of 168
    crowleycrowley Posts: 9,098member
    Quote:
    Originally Posted by frxntier View Post





    Then how would one access Finder? What a ridiculous thing to say. Now you're just trolling.


     

    Do you have no imagination?  They could do many things to better integrate them.  You already have access to a Spotlight search from Finder, I'm just talking about bringing the Spotlight search interface more to the forefront, either as a splash screen with a "browse" option to get into the normal Finder window, or (my preference) a more prominent search area of the banner that you're ready to type into straight away and access the new rich Spotlight results with a better results pane.

     

    The point being, if Spotlight is a menu bar widget, make it a menu bar widget.  If it's a full app then make it a full app.   Alternatively, avoid the UI issue and integrate it with an app that provides similar functionality - the Finder.

     

     

     

    If having an opinion makes me a troll around here I'm happy to be one.  In my opinion throwing around accusation of trolling with gay abandon is far more trollish than anything I've said.

  • Reply 131 of 168
    pbpb Posts: 4,237member
    Quote:
    Originally Posted by iaeen View Post


    These file systems are totally alien to me and, I would guess, at least 99% of people using OSX. That being the case, working on these things isn't going to help Apple sell Macs.

     

    I think the file system can be a great selling point today. It depends on the features. Other file systems (and from what I remember that was the case of ZFS that died suddenly while it was ported to the Mac) can ensure a much higher level of data integrity, bringing other nice features as well. Of course this does not eliminate the need for backups, but securing the user's data in the best possible way should be of prime priority.

     

    Quote:


    Originally Posted by iaeen View Post

    Apple isn't losing focus, they just aren't focusing on what you want them to.



     

    Indeed. Apple seems more focused than ever these days. I just don't like the new focus either but I am not going to fuss about it.

  • Reply 132 of 168
    pbpb Posts: 4,237member
    Quote:
    Originally Posted by frxntier View Post



    Then how would one access Finder? What a ridiculous thing to say. Now you're just trolling.



    Please guys, stop attacking and calling names other members of the forum because they say something different. This place used to be a very nice forum in the past. Let's make an effort to keep it polite and civilized. It is easy.

  • Reply 133 of 168
    asciiascii Posts: 5,941member
    Quote:
    Originally Posted by AppleInsider View Post



    Overall, OS X Yosemite sits in an uncanny valley between its more detailed heritage and the spartan adornment of iOS under Jony Ive.

    I think it looks like a dog's breakfast too. 

     

    Quote:

    Originally Posted by AppleInsider View Post



    This is not particularly surprising, given the huge amount of baggage OS X carries and the monumental task of rebuilding the entire user experience of two flagship operating systems back to back, but the Apple human interface group has a long road ahead.

    If you watch the "Adapting Your App to the New UI of OS X Yosemite" talk, it sounds like this is not a work in progress, but pretty much the finished product. They even explain the principles behind why they made it that way. But you would think something based on principles would look more consistent.

  • Reply 134 of 168
    I hope there is a setting to turn translucency off. W7 came with it here at work and it was beyond distracting having other things show through while you are trying to read text. I'm not sure exactly how this is supposed to be helpful to a user...
  • Reply 135 of 168
    antkm1antkm1 Posts: 1,441member

    I'm late to this thread but I'll throw my 2 cents in.

    just on the surface...seeing the keynote and not trying the beta yet, I have to say i think they didn't take it far enough.

    There are many visual changes that i welcome but I feel like they could have taken it much further.  Plus, there are changes that I don't think I like as much.

    In general I like that it's going back to the one-UI look between iOS and OS X.  It makes a lot of sense.  It's a good start but they could have done better?  What the heck as Ive and his design team been doing for a year?  The groundwork was already laid with iOS 7.  I sure hope it's in the hardware aspect they've been working so hard on for a year...at least then i'd give this UI overhaul a pass.

     

    Here's a couple "for instances":

    Safari, Apple must have some reason to truncate the favorites into a quick look from the search bar, but I don't like that.  I have a large and very organized collection of favorites in many folders and sub-folder all organized by type and subsequently alphabetized that I've been collecting over the many years of web surfing.  I like the favorites bar and I hope that is a toggle that I can resurrect.

    Additionally, I would really...really like to see the rubber-band drag to refresh and didn't get it.  (same goes for mail, messages and email as well).  here's hoping that it's there or some beta testers out there can drop some hints to Apple Devs.

     

    App icons: I like that they are getting closer to some visual connection between iOS and OS X but some of the icons are largely unchanged and just more of a caricature of what they once were; closer to iOS look but still not uniform enough.  I'd really wish the messages icon between the two platforms was the same color.  Same goes for others.  In the AI screen-caps, the iTunes icon is still the old one but on Apple's website it's the same color as iOS.  Weird.  There still seems to be no uniformity between icons.  Are they going to be all rectangular?  Round?  Free-form?  is there any internal logic as to why some are one shape and others are different?  What about the coloring?  Is there any logic there as to what apps are a certain color and others are different?  perhaps by type of App?  These are still things I wish for to gain more visual clarity.

    So what is it going to be Apple?  Slanted flatted 3D rectangular shapes?  Circular iCons? Flattened rectangles?  Free-form shapes?  Pick one or give us some logical reason why they are the way they are.

     

    Notes & Reminders?  Meh...i didn't like the new iOS 7 look and I don't like the look here either.  Try again Apple.

     

    Notification Center:

    looks like they just copy&pasted iOS 7 and added widgets.  It's like they wanted to get rid of Dashboard but couldn't think of any better ideas but to toss them in the Notf-center.  Really?  I don't use Notification center as it is and I probably will use the widget even less than if they had just kept them in Dashboard.  I do use Dashboard 100% more than Notf-Center.

    My wish list was to bring some clarity back to dashboard.  not redundant apps like calculator and such.  Why not take the Dashboard-like apps from iOS and dump them in there?  (clock, stocks, especially trailers, etc).  Since in iOS they are small screen apps they would be perfect in Dashboard. This sidebar widgets is just lazy design and not intuitive.

    What I would have liked to see...if they wanted to do a slide-out sidebar for widgets...don't lump them into the Notif-Center...create one from the left.  You slide out from the right for Notification, from the left for widgets?  That makes a hell of a lot more sense than how it currently is.

     

    New Calendar look find...like iOS...but my wish list had the ability to share an entire calendar with someone or create a family calendar...it's been years since Google did this, why not Apple?

     

    Messages:

    yeah looks like iOS, fine.  But what about adding updating from 3rd party chat history?  I GChat with a friend sometimes on Google, sometimes through OS X.  why if I send a message via google does that not show up in my Messages History?  That's probably a 1% of the install-base problem so whatever.  It'll probably never happen.

    SMS in Messages.  Yeah nice feature if you text anyone anymore.

    What about opening up Messages to things like feeds and threads.  Make it more social like WeChat or other chat clients?  what about opening Messages to 3rd Parties?  Messages should be the the catch all, just like Mail is for all your 3rd party mail clients.

     

    Nothing in the Keynote mentioned improved podcast sync between iOS and OSX.  it's absolutely horrible for me and many others that I know.  I could write a short essay on the numerous ways it sucks so I'll just leave it at that.

     

    I hear on a podcasts that the "Green"  button is not only going to be fullscreen and not "maximize"?  Is this correct?  if so, that will piss me off because i do use both features equally and will be pissed if the green maximize has been eliminated for just full-screen.

     

    Clickable areas:

    I do really really like that they did not go the route of iOS and make colored clickable text. The way they've done is in OS X is exactly how it should have been in iOS.  I've posted numerous times on my reasoning so I can point you in the right direction if you want me to explain.  Just so much more intuitive and easier to follow than colored bolded text.

     

    iCloud Docs:

    This was a no brainer from forever ago.  But I fear this isn't really an innovation more-so playing catch up to people like Google and Dropbox.  There is literally nothing innovative about iCloud Docs.  It's Dropox in every way.  Comon Apple.  What I would have liked to see is iCloud save all your files.  Like Google Docs.  If I have to remember to put files in iCloud...its a fail because 99 times out of 100 i will have forgotten that one file i wanted.

     

    anyway, I could go on but I won't.  Of course there's the caveat that some of what I speak of will be in the public release, but we won't know for months to come.  So it's wait and see.  I hope i've given some ideas to the beta testers out there to suggest to apple.

  • Reply 136 of 168
    iaeeniaeen Posts: 588member
    red rogers wrote: »
    Or, maybe you and your ilk are just too thin-skinned, as you seem to lump everything which is less than congratulatory into the same target box. For example, you launched a tirade at me and you apparently had not even read my initial posts. As soon as one of your homies sounds a battle cry against an invader, you're all ready to attack.

    I have been reading AppleInsider since the 90s and am as much an Apple fan as anyone on this site. I don't need anyone here to lecture me, and I certainly gained nothing from this process from people who don't know or care what a file system is all about.

    As I said previously, some things never change in Apple land. What goes around comes around. Remember that.

    Whatever. Good luck with your crusade.
  • Reply 137 of 168
    clemynxclemynx Posts: 1,512member

    OSX has never looked and worked better. It's just amazing.

  • Reply 138 of 168
    iaeeniaeen Posts: 588member
    pb wrote: »
    I think the file system can be a great selling point today. It depends on the features. Other file systems (and from what I remember that was the case of ZFS that died suddenly while it was ported to the Mac) can ensure a much higher level of data integrity, bringing other nice features as well. Of course this does not eliminate the need for backups, but securing the user's data in the best possible way should be of prime priority.


    Indeed. Apple seems more focused than ever these days. I just don't like the new focus either but I am not going to fuss about it.

    What features do these new file systems bring to the table? From the content of your post it sounds like they are less likely to corrupt data, but what other features do they have?

    When I think of data loss, I think of physical HDD failure. Data corruption, in my mind, is so rare that it's a non issue.
  • Reply 139 of 168
    Hey is it just me or what...but I would like to have the same features text typing words in iOS that can figure out what you want to type it's so much faster ...in OS X
  • Reply 140 of 168
    iaeeniaeen Posts: 588member
    larrymagoo wrote: »
    Hey is it just me or what...but I would like to have the same features text typing words in iOS that can figure out what you want to type it's so much faster ...in OS X

    They did add autocorrect to OSX a year or two ago, but it's not nearly as robust as the iOS version. Word prediction like they are adding to iOS 8 would be difficult on OSX because I can't see any convenient way to select the words without redesigning the keyboard.
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