My daughter bought a new house on a "lane" that is part of her HOA, not a city street. The city/county changed the name a couple times during her buying process causing all sorts of problems. The county assessor has the correct name and location yet the mapping companies don't seem to get street information from them. I talked to a person at a city government office and she had to contact someone else before everything finally was fixed but said the mapping companies don't update their databases except (maybe) twice a year. I don't believe there is a single source for mapping information although the assessor's office should be the most accurate information.
Assessor's office keeps data on parcel value and not roads (unless it's a private road and even then that road would have to be a separate parcel such as an HOA road for a subdivision). Their road data is probably rarely ever updated.
I think Google will continue to be the map leader for two main reasons. One, they can use their search data and apply it to maps, and two, they can use their Street View data and apply that to maps as well. They have all the data they need. Apple has none of that.
I think Google will continue to be the map "leader" because you only get a one opportunity to make a first impression, and for Apple Maps, that opportunity has past. In years to come, Apple Maps will get better, but people tend to remember big, splashy flameouts, not quiet, steady improvement.
Independence has its benefits, but sometimes working with partners is more practical. If Apple wanted to, they could get white label Bing search just like Yahoo does. Building ones own search engine from scratch is a decade long undertaking, just like Apple Maps will end up being before it will be considered truly professional grade.
I didn't say it would be quick or easy. You're right that it will take years, and that's why the sooner they get started the better. I'm sure there's many within Apple who feel they need their own search engine and it's time to end the internal debate and get the ball rolling. Every day they waste is another day they could've spent getting closer to the finish line, such as standing idle while companies like Google buy up other firms to strengthen their search ambitions.
Apple needs their own search engine and it's only a matter of time before they finally reach that conclusion.
Apple needs their own search engine and it's only a matter of time before they finally reach that conclusion.
Search is not really a stand alone product. It is generally expected that it be coupled with ads. Businesses want to achieve top page rank so search is by definition very commercial. Apple has dabbled in the advertising sector but mostly to support third party developers not to really be in the advertising business. I don't think iAds is really a commercial success either. All of Apple's online services are designed as benefits to Apple hardware buyers not commercial enterprises for their own sake.
Anyway, once they start working on it, it won't be a secret, because they will need a page crawling bot which will show up in the logs.
I think Google will continue to be the map "leader" because you only get a one opportunity to make a first impression, and for Apple Maps, that opportunity has past. In years to come, Apple Maps will get better, but people tend to remember big, splashy flameouts, not quiet, steady improvement.
I don't think that is all that important. Apple has prime visibility on the iOS home screen. Most people will default to that rather than intentionally go to Google Maps. Also, MapKit will give developers the ability to integrate Apple Maps into their apps. Once Apple Maps is really good, then people will forget about the stumble out of the gate. I would guess it will take at least a few more years before they get there.
I didn't say it would be quick or easy. You're right that it will take years, and that's why the sooner they get started the better. I'm sure there's many within Apple who feel they need their own search engine and it's time to end the internal debate and get the ball rolling. Every day they waste is another day they could've spent getting closer to the finish line, such as standing idle while companies like Google buy up other firms to strengthen their search ambitions.
Apple needs their own search engine and it's only a matter of time before they finally reach that conclusion.
I often think buying Yahoo might be the quickest way to start the ball rolling in search and they gain other useful stuff too. Just not sure if that would be cheaper than starting from scratch though, I suspect time might be more valuable to save than money though ... just thinking out loud here ... They were quite close but Apple seems to have stepped a wee bit further away recently.
I don't think that is all that important. Apple has prime visibility on the iOS home screen. Most people will default to that rather than intentionally go to Google Maps. Also, MapKit will give developers the ability to integrate Apple Maps into their apps. Once Apple Maps is really good, then people will forget about the stumble out of the gate. I would guess it will take at least a few more years before they get there.
I must admit I do use Street view a lot on Google maps and let us not forget Google Earth is pretty impressive. I support Apple 100% in dumping Google ASAP but obviously it is not because Googles mapping is bad, it's simply because Google back stabbed Apple and stole the iOS IP. So, my point is, Apple might soon be able to match basic Google maps but I'd miss Street view and Earth if I didn't have them. I don't see Apple trying to replicate either of those efforts ... does anyone think they would?
I must admit I do use Street view a lot on Google maps ...
I don't use Street View much at all. I know it is important for realtors and home buying, leasing and getting to know a new city, but I rarely need that. What do you use Street View for?
I didn't say it would be quick or easy. You're right that it will take years, and that's why the sooner they get started the better. I'm sure there's many within Apple who feel they need their own search engine and it's time to end the internal debate and get the ball rolling. Every day they waste is another day they could've spent getting closer to the finish line, such as standing idle while companies like Google buy up other firms to strengthen their search ambitions.
Apple needs their own search engine and it's only a matter of time before they finally reach that conclusion.
Would the Apple search engine help this maps/POI problem? Or are you talking about a search engine in general to get away from Google?
For POI data... the information has to be somewhere online for Apple's search engine to crawl.
But I'm getting the impression from this thread that there is NOT an online location where all this POI data exists.
If there was... why couldn't Apple just licence that data instead of building a search engine to crawl the web?
I agree that Apple should build a search engine... but I'm not seeing how it will help their maps woes.
I agree that Apple should build a search engine... but I'm not seeing how it will help their maps woes.
Every company has a web page and almost all of them have their current address and phone number listed. There is also invisible web server, network info which can be cross referenced to registrars to know what types of searches are being done from a certain location by knowing the IP blocks that serve a company.
Google crawls my web pages almost every single day.
Try living in the UK - the POI content on Apple Maps is appalling.
Unlike Google, whose worldwide database seems pretty comprehensive, Apple seems intent on treating anyone who doesn't live in North America as a second-class citizen.
Every company has a web page and almost all of them have their current address and phone number listed. There is also invisible web server, network info which can be cross referenced to registrars to know what types of searches are being done from a certain location by knowing the IP blocks that serve a company.
Google crawls my web pages almost every single day.
Gotcha... that makes sense. They need to get on with it then!
I can see that working for small businesses... but what about large chains?
Would Apple's search engine have to scrape McDonalds.com or Subway.com to get the addresses of all their restaurants? Or the hundreds of other restaurants and stores with one website but many locations?
I definitely sense a sea change coming with Apple's Maps. Just in the past week, I saw the new error reporting option for Apple to notify you when they make the correction. I like that this now creates some accountability. In the past, I would submit an error report and over a year would pass before I finally see the map corrected (and of course, there was no option for notification, so you had no idea when they actually fixed things).
Someone mentioned that Apple no longer relies on Yelp for business location data. However, I do recall that Apple supposedly did not display businesses that fell below a certain Yelp rating (or I guess a certain number of reviews). The business would still come up if you search for it, but Apple did not display it by default. I don't know if these Yelp ties still exist, but I know that the businesses displayed on Apple Maps are still hit or miss, with a lot of missing entries.
Quote:
Originally Posted by mstone
In southern California, before Internet mapping, there was a company named Thomas Bros. Maps. They published new maps each year for every county and every government vehicle was required to have the most current version. I think they are out of business now. Their headquarters in Irvine closed. Anyway they indeed listed every single street, highway, alleyway and public building, but they surely had to contact every little city, every county, and the state, and the information wasn't digital either. That is a tremendous amount of work. But it can be done.
Thomas Bros. charged a lot of money for those books, and their business depended on extreme accuracy because the police and fire departments relied on them. Apple doesn't seem to have that sense of responsibility or urgency, and their revenue stream is not at all affected by the lack of map accuracy. I'm not sure what mapping the police use today but I'd be willing to bet it isn't Apple.
The Thomas Guides are now published by Rand McNally. Apparently, they are no longer updated with the same veracity as when Thomas Bros. operated, and no longer updated annually. The Wikipedia entry says that they now purchase the database info from third parties that might not know the local terrain as well as Thomas Bros. once did. Thomas did actually make the transition to digital mapping and retained the same fanatical attention to accuracy until they overexpanded their territory into several other states and had to be bought out.
I remember that the City of LA keyed their aerial photos (in the days before satellite images could be readily accessed) and many of their location-based docs to the Thomas Bros. grid. The guides were a staple in city-owned vehicles and IIRC also with LAPD squad cars. Definitely the gold standard for local paper maps, and in many ways, a lot more readily readable than online maps.
I noticed that a location error I had reported several times over the last year or so, is now fixed. Not sure if it took so long because I was the only one complaining or if it represents an increased effort on their part. Either way, good to see it corrected.
POI's are a tough nut to crack. I've had many many errors with google maps too. To answer the question- is there not one place that has a list of correct POI's? Answer- sort of, it just needs to be gathered. IMO - the best path forward is to partner(ie pay) with local, state, or country wide entries who's primary purposes are to know and go to said POI's on a regular basis. Example - US postal service/fedex/UPS. Do they or do they not essentially go to POI regularly? So... Pay these companies to audit public stand alone POI's with an iPhone strapped to a wrist. Phone should say -your are now here at this POI(s). YES NO? Then report.(don't hate, but google glass would be great for this) The wearer my or may not have time to update, but could be put in to a record. First go around will be full of errors that need correction. However, by some relatively short time, that list should be down to the normal flux of changes. Let's say it takes said employee 5 minutes to update. He/she would get paid say... $5 for each. Of course this is greatly greatly... greatly simplified, but seems 'as a method' to be viable. Thoughts? Should I email Tim? /s That said, fedex etc could do this on their own and sell it!
My business address is wrong on Apple and Google maps.
I wonder where they got that data from?
Did you move your business from one address to another? Or is it listed somewhere completely wrong? Maybe they have old data that hasn't been updated... but what is that data?
I want to know where Apple and Google gets these addresses in the first place. If we knew that, we'd at least have a place to start making corrections.
No one seems to know where they get this data from... yet all the POI data is dependent upon it.
Apple used to think there were two Walmarts in my town... one at the correct address... and one at an old factory. (there's only one Walmart)
I'm curious as to how Apple placed a 2nd Walmart at that wrong address. There shouldn't be a document or record on Earth that ever listed a Walmart at that wrong address. So how did it end up in Apple's listings?
They've since deleted the extra Walmart... but how did it happen in the first place?
Comments
My daughter bought a new house on a "lane" that is part of her HOA, not a city street. The city/county changed the name a couple times during her buying process causing all sorts of problems. The county assessor has the correct name and location yet the mapping companies don't seem to get street information from them. I talked to a person at a city government office and she had to contact someone else before everything finally was fixed but said the mapping companies don't update their databases except (maybe) twice a year. I don't believe there is a single source for mapping information although the assessor's office should be the most accurate information.
Assessor's office keeps data on parcel value and not roads (unless it's a private road and even then that road would have to be a separate parcel such as an HOA road for a subdivision). Their road data is probably rarely ever updated.
I think Google will continue to be the map leader for two main reasons. One, they can use their search data and apply it to maps, and two, they can use their Street View data and apply that to maps as well. They have all the data they need. Apple has none of that.
I think Google will continue to be the map "leader" because you only get a one opportunity to make a first impression, and for Apple Maps, that opportunity has past. In years to come, Apple Maps will get better, but people tend to remember big, splashy flameouts, not quiet, steady improvement.
Apple needs their own search engine and it's only a matter of time before they finally reach that conclusion.
Search is not really a stand alone product. It is generally expected that it be coupled with ads. Businesses want to achieve top page rank so search is by definition very commercial. Apple has dabbled in the advertising sector but mostly to support third party developers not to really be in the advertising business. I don't think iAds is really a commercial success either. All of Apple's online services are designed as benefits to Apple hardware buyers not commercial enterprises for their own sake.
Anyway, once they start working on it, it won't be a secret, because they will need a page crawling bot which will show up in the logs.
I think Google will continue to be the map "leader" because you only get a one opportunity to make a first impression, and for Apple Maps, that opportunity has past. In years to come, Apple Maps will get better, but people tend to remember big, splashy flameouts, not quiet, steady improvement.
I don't think that is all that important. Apple has prime visibility on the iOS home screen. Most people will default to that rather than intentionally go to Google Maps. Also, MapKit will give developers the ability to integrate Apple Maps into their apps. Once Apple Maps is really good, then people will forget about the stumble out of the gate. I would guess it will take at least a few more years before they get there.
I often think buying Yahoo might be the quickest way to start the ball rolling in search and they gain other useful stuff too. Just not sure if that would be cheaper than starting from scratch though, I suspect time might be more valuable to save than money though ... just thinking out loud here ... They were quite close but Apple seems to have stepped a wee bit further away recently.
I mentioned in the last article that I had resubmitted some of the things I’d done initially, none of which had been fixed.
Several have been fixed now. Several others, right next door, haven’t, but it’s infinitely faster than before.
I must admit I do use Street view a lot on Google maps and let us not forget Google Earth is pretty impressive. I support Apple 100% in dumping Google ASAP but obviously it is not because Googles mapping is bad, it's simply because Google back stabbed Apple and stole the iOS IP. So, my point is, Apple might soon be able to match basic Google maps but I'd miss Street view and Earth if I didn't have them. I don't see Apple trying to replicate either of those efforts ... does anyone think they would?
I must admit I do use Street view a lot on Google maps ...
I don't use Street View much at all. I know it is important for realtors and home buying, leasing and getting to know a new city, but I rarely need that. What do you use Street View for?
Would the Apple search engine help this maps/POI problem? Or are you talking about a search engine in general to get away from Google?
For POI data... the information has to be somewhere online for Apple's search engine to crawl.
But I'm getting the impression from this thread that there is NOT an online location where all this POI data exists.
If there was... why couldn't Apple just licence that data instead of building a search engine to crawl the web?
I agree that Apple should build a search engine... but I'm not seeing how it will help their maps woes.
Every company has a web page and almost all of them have their current address and phone number listed. There is also invisible web server, network info which can be cross referenced to registrars to know what types of searches are being done from a certain location by knowing the IP blocks that serve a company.
Google crawls my web pages almost every single day.
Try living in the UK - the POI content on Apple Maps is appalling.
Unlike Google, whose worldwide database seems pretty comprehensive, Apple seems intent on treating anyone who doesn't live in North America as a second-class citizen.
Pretty funny coming from The British "Empire".
Apple seems intent on treating anyone who doesn't live in North America as a second-class citizen.
Given that they’re an American company, I’m confused why you find this confusing. Enjoy Airstrip One.
Gotcha... that makes sense. They need to get on with it then!
I can see that working for small businesses... but what about large chains?
Would Apple's search engine have to scrape McDonalds.com or Subway.com to get the addresses of all their restaurants? Or the hundreds of other restaurants and stores with one website but many locations?
I definitely sense a sea change coming with Apple's Maps. Just in the past week, I saw the new error reporting option for Apple to notify you when they make the correction. I like that this now creates some accountability. In the past, I would submit an error report and over a year would pass before I finally see the map corrected (and of course, there was no option for notification, so you had no idea when they actually fixed things).
Someone mentioned that Apple no longer relies on Yelp for business location data. However, I do recall that Apple supposedly did not display businesses that fell below a certain Yelp rating (or I guess a certain number of reviews). The business would still come up if you search for it, but Apple did not display it by default. I don't know if these Yelp ties still exist, but I know that the businesses displayed on Apple Maps are still hit or miss, with a lot of missing entries.
Quote:
In southern California, before Internet mapping, there was a company named Thomas Bros. Maps. They published new maps each year for every county and every government vehicle was required to have the most current version. I think they are out of business now. Their headquarters in Irvine closed. Anyway they indeed listed every single street, highway, alleyway and public building, but they surely had to contact every little city, every county, and the state, and the information wasn't digital either. That is a tremendous amount of work. But it can be done.
Thomas Bros. charged a lot of money for those books, and their business depended on extreme accuracy because the police and fire departments relied on them. Apple doesn't seem to have that sense of responsibility or urgency, and their revenue stream is not at all affected by the lack of map accuracy. I'm not sure what mapping the police use today but I'd be willing to bet it isn't Apple.
The Thomas Guides are now published by Rand McNally. Apparently, they are no longer updated with the same veracity as when Thomas Bros. operated, and no longer updated annually. The Wikipedia entry says that they now purchase the database info from third parties that might not know the local terrain as well as Thomas Bros. once did. Thomas did actually make the transition to digital mapping and retained the same fanatical attention to accuracy until they overexpanded their territory into several other states and had to be bought out.
I remember that the City of LA keyed their aerial photos (in the days before satellite images could be readily accessed) and many of their location-based docs to the Thomas Bros. grid. The guides were a staple in city-owned vehicles and IIRC also with LAPD squad cars. Definitely the gold standard for local paper maps, and in many ways, a lot more readily readable than online maps.
I noticed that a location error I had reported several times over the last year or so, is now fixed. Not sure if it took so long because I was the only one complaining or if it represents an increased effort on their part. Either way, good to see it corrected.
To answer the question- is there not one place that has a list of correct POI's?
Answer- sort of, it just needs to be gathered.
IMO - the best path forward is to partner(ie pay) with local, state, or country wide entries who's primary purposes are to know and go to said POI's on a regular basis. Example - US postal service/fedex/UPS. Do they or do they not essentially go to POI regularly? So... Pay these companies to audit public stand alone POI's with an iPhone strapped to a wrist. Phone should say -your are now here at this POI(s). YES NO? Then report.(don't hate, but google glass would be great for this) The wearer my or may not have time to update, but could be put in to a record. First go around will be full of errors that need correction. However, by some relatively short time, that list should be down to the normal flux of changes. Let's say it takes said employee 5 minutes to update. He/she would get paid say... $5 for each.
Of course this is greatly greatly... greatly simplified, but seems 'as a method' to be viable. Thoughts? Should I email Tim? /s That said, fedex etc could do this on their own and sell it!
I wonder where they got that data from?
Did you move your business from one address to another? Or is it listed somewhere completely wrong? Maybe they have old data that hasn't been updated... but what is that data?
I want to know where Apple and Google gets these addresses in the first place. If we knew that, we'd at least have a place to start making corrections.
No one seems to know where they get this data from... yet all the POI data is dependent upon it.
Apple used to think there were two Walmarts in my town... one at the correct address... and one at an old factory. (there's only one Walmart)
I'm curious as to how Apple placed a 2nd Walmart at that wrong address. There shouldn't be a document or record on Earth that ever listed a Walmart at that wrong address. So how did it end up in Apple's listings?
They've since deleted the extra Walmart... but how did it happen in the first place?