I don't have an answer for that -- but I do know that the biggest obstacle to progress on this front is not a lack of answers/ideas/things we should try, but rather the widespread refusal to admit that the problem exists in the first place (see: the majority of posts in this thread). So I'm glad to see that you, at least (and a few other posters here) are willing to grapple with this in a more honest way.
What's worse is that the problem is systematic. I recently had a conversation with a officer from the NYPD, and he told me that their superior officers are constantly badgering them into making arrests. Now with major crime dropping to new lows every year means that the opportunity to arrest someone have dropped considerably leaving only petty criminals, who aren't hurting anyone to arrest. Thus they set their sights on Eric Garner for doing something Joe Kennedy did almost a century ago, selling bootleg contraband. Which got Joe wealthy, and got Eric killed.
Yes, making generalizations about Republicans is totally just as bad as denying and belittling the toxic lingering effects of slavery and institutionalized white supremacy. It is bigotry like mine that keeps today's Republicans mired in poverty-stricken ghettoes around the nation.
Oh, I see... You think only "minorities" are poor. That's utter crap.
The inability/unwillingness to distinguish between the idea that racism is a big problem in the US and this strawman of yours is an important characteristic of the Neverland.
How do you stop racism in a ever evolving population? NYC has the most segregated school system of all the major cities. Why? Not because of the city, but because people like living with their own kind, and settle only in certain neighborhoods. On paper the police force is more diverse, Asians, Indians, Eastern Europeans, etc.., and most are first generation that have had little interactions with other races. How do we prevent them from being racists?
Quite.
It always baffles me that diversity and multiculturalism are considered such good things, when in reality, races tend to stick together because of their culture. No-one accuses black people of racism for congregating together on the street, or living in neighbourhoods consisting mostly of their race.
When nature programmes take a look at far-flung tribes of people, we look on benevolently and admire them. We don't say, "How awful that there is only one race here! What a mono-cultural monstrosity!"
We need to learn to live and let live. If people wish to segregate themselves, so be it. If you wish to live in a place that isn't riven with violence and gang culture, then I would avoid some inner-cities and do some homework on where the peaceful places are. Personally, I think the police are onto a losing battle until there is a sea-change of culture amongst those who are currently violent.
I'll try to address a few of your stupid post starting with why your precious Apple store was the best place for a peaceful demonstration.
It wasn’t; you are wrong. Next!
Places like the Apple store provide a big audience to get the message across.
The message that got across is that they’re idiots. Next!
This demonstration took about 15 minutes then moved on.
So fewer people saw it than had it been held somewhere actually visible and meaningful. Next!
...we still have a long way to go in regards to race equality...
No. We don’t. This is a delusional psychosis. Next!
(homicides)
Yes, that is what ALL instances of a human death caused by a human are called.
...committed by police officers due to excessive force when arresting American citizens has a long history much of has not been reported in mainstream news outlets.
Indeed. In fact, the “homicide” of a white teenager by a black police officer just two days after the events of Ferguson, just to use an example, was not reported anywhere. It’s almost as though you’re deluded into the belief that it’s only “justice” if you get what you deem to be your way all the time.
If any of you care about your country and the rights of yourself and your fellow Americans you would support this effort to bring about meaningful change in how police are trained and prosecuted when unjustified force is used against citizens.
Not a single person here has said anything whatsoever about being against the revocation of law that violates constitutional rights.
Not a single person here has said anything whatsoever about being against stopping the use of excessive force in arrests.
STOP INVENTING STRAWMEN AND PRETENDING THAT’S THE WAY THE WORLD WORKS.
Originally Posted by billyjoebob
When I saw that this post had 300+ comments, I had a momentary hope that, this being a site associated with the company that urged us to "think different" and praised "the rebels, the misfits, the crazy ones", that I'd see sympathy, humanity, and reasoned debate in this thread.
Quit whining.
Originally Posted by billyjoebob
...the idea that racism is a big problem in the US and this straw man of yours...
This irony is going to make me have to lie down for a while.
Originally Posted by dasanman69
How do you stop racism in a ever evolving population?
I don't have an answer for that -- but I do know that the biggest obstacle to progress on this front is not a lack of answers/ideas/things we should try, but rather the widespread refusal to admit that the problem exists in the first place (see: the majority of posts in this thread). So I'm glad to see that you, at least (and a few other posters here) are willing to grapple with this in a more honest way.
What's worse is that the problem is systematic. I recently had a conversation with a officer from the NYPD, and he told me that their superior officers are constantly badgering them into making arrests. Now with major crime dropping to new lows every year means that the opportunity to arrest someone have dropped considerably leaving only petty criminals, who aren't hurting anyone to arrest. Thus they set their sights on Eric Garner for doing something Joe Kennedy did almost a century ago, selling bootleg contraband. Which got Joe wealthy, and got Eric killed.
Thieves are petty criminals, and thousands upon thousands still go free. They shouldn’t; every single one should be arrested and put in prison.
The message that got across is that they’re idiots. Next!
So fewer people saw it than had it been held somewhere actually visible and meaningful. Next!
No. We don’t. This is a delusional psychosis. Next!
Yes, that is what ALL instances of a human death caused by a human are called.
Indeed. In fact, the “homicide” of a white teenager by a black police officer just two days after the events of Ferguson, just to use an example, was not reported anywhere. It’s almost as though you’re deluded into the belief that it’s only “justice” if you get what you deem to be your way all the time.
Not a single person here has said anything whatsoever about being against the revocation of law that violates constitutional rights.
Not a single person here has said anything whatsoever about being against stopping the use of excessive force in arrests.
STOP INVENTING STRAWMEN AND PRETENDING THAT’S THE WAY THE WORLD WORKS.
Quit whining.
This irony is going to make me have to lie down for a while.
By not pretending it’s a problem.
Tallest, you're a smart guy but you're also ignorant to think that race relations and socioeconomic problems don't exist in America. Keep pretending problems don't exist since ignorance is your bliss.
Tallest, you're a smart guy but you're also ignorant to think that race relations and socioeconomic problems don't exist in America. Keep pretending problems don't exist since ignorance is your bliss.
Socio-economic problems aren't solved by throwing money into government programs, bailing out people or demanding solutions under threat of violence, property damage or criminal trespass.
Socio-economic problems aren't solved by throwing money into government programs, bailing out people or demanding solutions under threat of violence, property damage or criminal trespass.
No one said that, try staying on point. These problems exist and ignoring them will not make them go away. Also, don't make generalizations that you don't understand, social security and government education grants are - government programs. Just those two programs have kept people from being homeless and empowered others who don't have the financial means to pursue higher education goals.
It always baffles me that diversity and multiculturalism are considered such good things, when in reality, races tend to stick together because of their culture. No-one accuses black people of racism for congregating together on the street, or living in neighbourhoods consisting mostly of their race.
We need to learn to live and let live. If people wish to segregate themselves, so be it. If you wish to live in a place that isn't riven with violence and gang culture, then I would avoid some inner-cities and do some homework on where the peaceful places are. Personally, I think the police are onto a losing battle until there is a sea-change of culture amongst those who are currently violent.
Multi-culturarism is a good thing. We live in a connected world. If you are unwilling to participate in relationships with people of all races and backgrounds, you're artificially limiting yourself.
You really think African-Americans have a lot of choices as to where to live? You think they choose to live in ghettos only because other Black people live there? Black people live where they live either because they can't afford anywhere else (which is also partially due to racism) or because of racism, in spite of Federal Fair Housing laws.
You think it's only "violent people" (by which you obviously primarily mean Black people who live in poor neighborhoods) who need to change their culture? The police need to change their culture of "us" against "them" and the culture of seeing poor people, and especially minorities, as less than human (or at best, less than White people). Relations between the police and Black and other minority communities in NYC were actually pretty good until Bloomberg instituted the "stop and frisk" policy, a policy which while having the best of intentions, alienated entire neighborhoods, broke any trust the police had gained with such communities especially after 9/11, and only resulted in a 1% arrest rate and many of those arrests were thrown out of court. So any intelligent analysis of "stop and frisk" would detail that it didn't work and had tremendous negative impacts.
But in spite of that and the recent tragedies of people being killed by NYC police, I still think that NYC cops are better than most other city cops around the nation. At least they never became militarized and there's a decent amount of minority cops on the force. But they do apparently need to be retrained in how to make common sense decisions on when to be aggressive and how to defuse such situations and it needs to be easier to get violent thug cops off the force. I've seen cops surround demonstrations in the past, and they usually do so passively, usually looking more bored than anything else. But in the recent protests, they've been far more aggressive in trying to break up these demonstrations. They should be doing just the opposite. I thought the Constitution still gave us the right to protest in this country, even if we're wrong.
During the civil-rights and Vietnam era, the police became politicized. Instead of enforcing the law, they enforced their personal dislike for the politics of the protestors. That was a huge mistake, but it looks like the NYC (and other) police are becoming politicized again.
While Eric Garner shares some blame for physically pushing the officers away and he was probably a jerk, there's no way he deserved to die for selling a single loose cigarette. Bankers on Wall Street destroyed the lives of millions of people and they walked away still living their 1% lives by taking even more of our (tax) money in the bailout. But we don't think of them as criminal because they're rich and White and because they push the law away with lawyers and lobbyists instead of with their bodies. As far as I'm concerned, they did far more harm than Eric Garner ever did.
...and empowered others who don’t have the financial means to pursue higher education goals.
By means that are otherwise illegal.
Originally Posted by zoetmb
Multi-culturarism is a good thing.
No. Diversity is a good thing.
Black people live where they live either because they can't afford anywhere else (which is also partially due to racism) or because of racism, in spite of Federal Fair Housing laws.
Oh, SHUT UP already. People who think this make me sick.
But in the recent protests, they've been far more aggressive in trying to break up these demonstrations.
I guess the Constitution also lets us set fire to and loot businesses.
But we don’t think of them as criminal because they’re rich and White...
I’m gonna take a flying leap and guess that not all of them are.
While Eric Garner shares some blame for physically pushing the officers away and he was probably a jerk, there's no way he deserved to die for selling a single loose cigarette.
Eric Garner's death was clearly accidental. You can see the arrest video, not all of the officers are white either:
He had asthma and was very overweight. That's not to say the officers couldn't have gone a bit more lightly as he wasn't resisting much but not everyone would die under the same circumstances:
"The medical examiner said compression of the neck and chest, along with Garner's positioning on the ground while being restrained by police during the July 17 stop on Staten Island, caused his death. Garner's acute and chronic bronchial asthma, obesity and hypertensive cardiovascular disease were contributing factors, the medical examiner determined."
Wording it as 'deserve to die' implies the officers intended to kill him. Accidental deaths happen in all kinds of circumstances. Stats taken over 6 years for arrest-related deaths are here:
98 million arrests, 4,813 deaths. About half were homicide by law enforcement.
1233 white, 937 black, 599 hispanic, 189 other.
The number of black deaths per population is higher than white but that's because of the higher rate of crime per population.
There are more white police officers because there are more white people in the US by a ratio of over 5:1. Blacks are poorer than white at a ratio of around 2.5:1. White people are arrested more than black by 2.5:1:
This still means more crime and subsequent arrests per population for blacks.
Programs like stop and frisk have been shown to be targeting minorities far more because they are acting on the suspicions of the officers and not responding to a report of a crime. Those are damaging. Making a race campaign out of a couple of accidental deaths during arrest isn't backed up by the arrest stats, which shows more white people are killed during arrest than black.
Mr frost,
Would you agree with me that the mostly Anglo Saxon race in Britain is arguably the most racist bigoted nation/race on earth (which by the way the United States is making a really good attempt at improving upon by killing even more people) not only because of it's patently aggressive barbaric history but also because it's people think they are morally and genetically superior but also because they further this by additionally creating more barriers using their ridiculous class system where a mere accent usually brings out hatred, resentment and a myriad of controls and limitations in terms of access to education, employment and social groups and institutions. You can take your British lies and distortion and name calling and stuff it up your "bottom".
Comments
What's worse is that the problem is systematic. I recently had a conversation with a officer from the NYPD, and he told me that their superior officers are constantly badgering them into making arrests. Now with major crime dropping to new lows every year means that the opportunity to arrest someone have dropped considerably leaving only petty criminals, who aren't hurting anyone to arrest. Thus they set their sights on Eric Garner for doing something Joe Kennedy did almost a century ago, selling bootleg contraband. Which got Joe wealthy, and got Eric killed.
Oh, I see... You think only "minorities" are poor. That's utter crap.
There are 'white' ghettos.
The inability/unwillingness to distinguish between the idea that racism is a big problem in the US and this strawman of yours is an important characteristic of the Neverland.
How do you stop racism in a ever evolving population? NYC has the most segregated school system of all the major cities. Why? Not because of the city, but because people like living with their own kind, and settle only in certain neighborhoods. On paper the police force is more diverse, Asians, Indians, Eastern Europeans, etc.., and most are first generation that have had little interactions with other races. How do we prevent them from being racists?
Quite.
It always baffles me that diversity and multiculturalism are considered such good things, when in reality, races tend to stick together because of their culture. No-one accuses black people of racism for congregating together on the street, or living in neighbourhoods consisting mostly of their race.
When nature programmes take a look at far-flung tribes of people, we look on benevolently and admire them. We don't say, "How awful that there is only one race here! What a mono-cultural monstrosity!"
We need to learn to live and let live. If people wish to segregate themselves, so be it. If you wish to live in a place that isn't riven with violence and gang culture, then I would avoid some inner-cities and do some homework on where the peaceful places are. Personally, I think the police are onto a losing battle until there is a sea-change of culture amongst those who are currently violent.
I'll try to address a few of your stupid post starting with why your precious Apple store was the best place for a peaceful demonstration.
It wasn’t; you are wrong. Next!
The message that got across is that they’re idiots. Next!
So fewer people saw it than had it been held somewhere actually visible and meaningful. Next!
No. We don’t. This is a delusional psychosis. Next!
(homicides)
Yes, that is what ALL instances of a human death caused by a human are called.
Indeed. In fact, the “homicide” of a white teenager by a black police officer just two days after the events of Ferguson, just to use an example, was not reported anywhere. It’s almost as though you’re deluded into the belief that it’s only “justice” if you get what you deem to be your way all the time.
Not a single person here has said anything whatsoever about being against the revocation of law that violates constitutional rights.
Not a single person here has said anything whatsoever about being against stopping the use of excessive force in arrests.
STOP INVENTING STRAWMEN AND PRETENDING THAT’S THE WAY THE WORLD WORKS.
Quit whining.
This irony is going to make me have to lie down for a while.
By not pretending it’s a problem.
I don't have an answer for that -- but I do know that the biggest obstacle to progress on this front is not a lack of answers/ideas/things we should try, but rather the widespread refusal to admit that the problem exists in the first place (see: the majority of posts in this thread). So I'm glad to see that you, at least (and a few other posters here) are willing to grapple with this in a more honest way.
What's worse is that the problem is systematic. I recently had a conversation with a officer from the NYPD, and he told me that their superior officers are constantly badgering them into making arrests. Now with major crime dropping to new lows every year means that the opportunity to arrest someone have dropped considerably leaving only petty criminals, who aren't hurting anyone to arrest. Thus they set their sights on Eric Garner for doing something Joe Kennedy did almost a century ago, selling bootleg contraband. Which got Joe wealthy, and got Eric killed.
Thieves are petty criminals, and thousands upon thousands still go free. They shouldn’t; every single one should be arrested and put in prison.
The problem with that is that often times a petty criminal comes out of prison a much more hardened one.
It wasn’t; you are wrong. Next!
The message that got across is that they’re idiots. Next!
So fewer people saw it than had it been held somewhere actually visible and meaningful. Next!
No. We don’t. This is a delusional psychosis. Next!
Yes, that is what ALL instances of a human death caused by a human are called.
Indeed. In fact, the “homicide” of a white teenager by a black police officer just two days after the events of Ferguson, just to use an example, was not reported anywhere. It’s almost as though you’re deluded into the belief that it’s only “justice” if you get what you deem to be your way all the time.
Not a single person here has said anything whatsoever about being against the revocation of law that violates constitutional rights.
Not a single person here has said anything whatsoever about being against stopping the use of excessive force in arrests.
STOP INVENTING STRAWMEN AND PRETENDING THAT’S THE WAY THE WORLD WORKS.
Quit whining.
This irony is going to make me have to lie down for a while.
By not pretending it’s a problem.
Tallest, you're a smart guy but you're also ignorant to think that race relations and socioeconomic problems don't exist in America. Keep pretending problems don't exist since ignorance is your bliss.
Tallest, you're a smart guy but you're also ignorant to think that race relations and socioeconomic problems don't exist in America. Keep pretending problems don't exist since ignorance is your bliss.
Socio-economic problems aren't solved by throwing money into government programs, bailing out people or demanding solutions under threat of violence, property damage or criminal trespass.
Keep manufacturing them, then.
Socio-economic problems aren't solved by throwing money into government programs, bailing out people or demanding solutions under threat of violence, property damage or criminal trespass.
No one said that, try staying on point. These problems exist and ignoring them will not make them go away. Also, don't make generalizations that you don't understand, social security and government education grants are - government programs. Just those two programs have kept people from being homeless and empowered others who don't have the financial means to pursue higher education goals.
Quite.
It always baffles me that diversity and multiculturalism are considered such good things, when in reality, races tend to stick together because of their culture. No-one accuses black people of racism for congregating together on the street, or living in neighbourhoods consisting mostly of their race.
We need to learn to live and let live. If people wish to segregate themselves, so be it. If you wish to live in a place that isn't riven with violence and gang culture, then I would avoid some inner-cities and do some homework on where the peaceful places are. Personally, I think the police are onto a losing battle until there is a sea-change of culture amongst those who are currently violent.
Multi-culturarism is a good thing. We live in a connected world. If you are unwilling to participate in relationships with people of all races and backgrounds, you're artificially limiting yourself.
You really think African-Americans have a lot of choices as to where to live? You think they choose to live in ghettos only because other Black people live there? Black people live where they live either because they can't afford anywhere else (which is also partially due to racism) or because of racism, in spite of Federal Fair Housing laws.
You think it's only "violent people" (by which you obviously primarily mean Black people who live in poor neighborhoods) who need to change their culture? The police need to change their culture of "us" against "them" and the culture of seeing poor people, and especially minorities, as less than human (or at best, less than White people). Relations between the police and Black and other minority communities in NYC were actually pretty good until Bloomberg instituted the "stop and frisk" policy, a policy which while having the best of intentions, alienated entire neighborhoods, broke any trust the police had gained with such communities especially after 9/11, and only resulted in a 1% arrest rate and many of those arrests were thrown out of court. So any intelligent analysis of "stop and frisk" would detail that it didn't work and had tremendous negative impacts.
But in spite of that and the recent tragedies of people being killed by NYC police, I still think that NYC cops are better than most other city cops around the nation. At least they never became militarized and there's a decent amount of minority cops on the force. But they do apparently need to be retrained in how to make common sense decisions on when to be aggressive and how to defuse such situations and it needs to be easier to get violent thug cops off the force. I've seen cops surround demonstrations in the past, and they usually do so passively, usually looking more bored than anything else. But in the recent protests, they've been far more aggressive in trying to break up these demonstrations. They should be doing just the opposite. I thought the Constitution still gave us the right to protest in this country, even if we're wrong.
During the civil-rights and Vietnam era, the police became politicized. Instead of enforcing the law, they enforced their personal dislike for the politics of the protestors. That was a huge mistake, but it looks like the NYC (and other) police are becoming politicized again.
While Eric Garner shares some blame for physically pushing the officers away and he was probably a jerk, there's no way he deserved to die for selling a single loose cigarette. Bankers on Wall Street destroyed the lives of millions of people and they walked away still living their 1% lives by taking even more of our (tax) money in the bailout. But we don't think of them as criminal because they're rich and White and because they push the law away with lawyers and lobbyists instead of with their bodies. As far as I'm concerned, they did far more harm than Eric Garner ever did.
By means that are otherwise illegal.
Multi-culturarism is a good thing.
No. Diversity is a good thing.
Black people live where they live either because they can't afford anywhere else (which is also partially due to racism) or because of racism, in spite of Federal Fair Housing laws.
Oh, SHUT UP already. People who think this make me sick.
I guess the Constitution also lets us set fire to and loot businesses.
But we don’t think of them as criminal because they’re rich and White...
I’m gonna take a flying leap and guess that not all of them are.
Stop whining.
I’d have to be whining first.
Eric Garner's death was clearly accidental. You can see the arrest video, not all of the officers are white either:
http://www.theguardian.com/us-news/video/2014/dec/04/i-cant-breathe-eric-garner-chokehold-death-video
He had asthma and was very overweight. That's not to say the officers couldn't have gone a bit more lightly as he wasn't resisting much but not everyone would die under the same circumstances:
"The medical examiner said compression of the neck and chest, along with Garner's positioning on the ground while being restrained by police during the July 17 stop on Staten Island, caused his death. Garner's acute and chronic bronchial asthma, obesity and hypertensive cardiovascular disease were contributing factors, the medical examiner determined."
Wording it as 'deserve to die' implies the officers intended to kill him. Accidental deaths happen in all kinds of circumstances. Stats taken over 6 years for arrest-related deaths are here:
http://www.bjs.gov/content/pub/pdf/ard0309st.pdf
98 million arrests, 4,813 deaths. About half were homicide by law enforcement.
1233 white, 937 black, 599 hispanic, 189 other.
The number of black deaths per population is higher than white but that's because of the higher rate of crime per population.
There are more white police officers because there are more white people in the US by a ratio of over 5:1. Blacks are poorer than white at a ratio of around 2.5:1. White people are arrested more than black by 2.5:1:
http://www.fbi.gov/about-us/cjis/ucr/crime-in-the-u.s/2012/crime-in-the-u.s.-2012/tables/43tabledatadecoverviewpdf
This still means more crime and subsequent arrests per population for blacks.
Programs like stop and frisk have been shown to be targeting minorities far more because they are acting on the suspicions of the officers and not responding to a report of a crime. Those are damaging. Making a race campaign out of a couple of accidental deaths during arrest isn't backed up by the arrest stats, which shows more white people are killed during arrest than black.
Mr frost,
Would you agree with me that the mostly Anglo Saxon race in Britain is arguably the most racist bigoted nation/race on earth (which by the way the United States is making a really good attempt at improving upon by killing even more people) not only because of it's patently aggressive barbaric history but also because it's people think they are morally and genetically superior but also because they further this by additionally creating more barriers using their ridiculous class system where a mere accent usually brings out hatred, resentment and a myriad of controls and limitations in terms of access to education, employment and social groups and institutions. You can take your British lies and distortion and name calling and stuff it up your "bottom".
Sincerely yours
You're saying you've taken anything without permission? Not even legally downloaded a TV show you've missed?