Sources: Apple's 2015 'iPhone 6s' models to gain Force Touch but no dual-camera system

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  • Reply 41 of 90
    Quote:

    Originally Posted by Mac_128 View Post

     

    Interesting then that Ive, THE DESIGNER, would even address it then. If nobody cares, least of all Ive, then why call attention to it? Why call it a compromise? A compromise is generally understood to be a solution that nobody likes. Odd then, that Ive would make such a disclosure publicly, especially if it was NOT his compromise. I would expect if Ive intended it, he would have chosen different words, and talked about how he organically worked the larger camera into the overall beauty and design of the phone.




    Blah blah. Someone likely asked him about it. Sane people take the better camera (and it is amazing) over a crippled one caused by a flush back. I doubt he goes around the halls at Apple mumbling about the iPhone 6 camera design. You notice they did the same thing on the iPod Touch in 2012, right?

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  • Reply 42 of 90
    wood1208wood1208 Posts: 2,951member
    Quote:

    Originally Posted by Suddenly Newton View Post

     



    I don't think they are. The iPhone 5s and 5c are strong sellers in their categories. Apple has to do the right thing. Maybe the iPhone 7 will gcome in 3 sizes.


    Apple is a corporation like any and care to make money for their investors and employees. So, if market demands than they will make it. Apple or any corporation has common denominator and that is to serve customer's need and in process make money. Plus, iphone 5c/5s can't do Apple-Pay by itself like iphone 6 so Apple have to integrate NFC in new 4" plus/minus size iphone and release to market so those customers who don't like larger size iphone can get on Apple-pay bandwagon.

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  • Reply 43 of 90
    wigby wrote: »
    Yeah ...

    But there are already gestures like long press that are being used within current apps to drag things around. If you want to try it now, go to your home screen and long press one of the icons (as opposed to just tapping it). the app icons wiggle and can be deleted or dragged around within the window, to the task bar or to another window ...

    Apple just hasn't implemented this on a system level ... But they could for a multi-window iPad pro, as you suggest.

    Again, unless I'm missing something, force touch hardware is overkill.

    BTW, Apple current supports gestures like pan, zoom ... Some of these are customizable for duration, taps or touches, number of fingers ...


    700
     

    True but we've been able to move around wiggling app icons for years and I've never seen a single developer use this in any app so it's much more likely that Apple will introduce a new way to do this so all developers will get on board.

    What about dragging around events on the calendar, credit cards in Passbook, images, shapes, videos and text in various iWork apps ...

    There are lots of 3rd-party apps that use gestures to drag and drop -- architecture/CADD, Interior design, landscape design, page layout, to-do lists, paper dolls ...


    Have a look at this top 100 drag and drop apps for iPhone and iPad:

    http://appcrawlr.com/ios-apps/best-apps-drag-and-drop?q=drag+and+drop&query=best-apps-drag-and-drop&deviceSeo=iphone,ipad&prefix=top-apps&action=seoProcess&controller=app&&_rv=1
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  • Reply 44 of 90
    nolamacguy wrote: »
    what are you talking about? in the recent New Yorker article he said it was a pragmatic decision -- a case where a purely theoretical desire for a flat surface had to yield to the reality of a better camera. they made the right choice, hands down. even when naked its barely noticeable and doesn't impede usage whatsoever.

    Having your cake +
    Eating your cake +
    Deadline =
    Do what you gotta do. Engineering is not magic. It's practical problem solving. Designers want it all, of course. Physics be damned.

    I find these forum digs at the protruding lens as a sign of obsessive compulsive disorder. If it's that much of a problem, there are plenty of other smartphones in the sea.
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  • Reply 45 of 90
    wigbywigby Posts: 692member
    Quote:

    Originally Posted by Dick Applebaum View Post





    What about dragging around events on the calendar, credit cards in Passbook, images, shapes, videos and text in various iWork apps ...



    There are lots of 3rd-party apps that use gestures to drag and drop -- architecture/CADD, Interior design, landscape design, page layout, to-do lists, paper dolls ...





    Have a look at this top 100 drag and drop apps for iPhone and iPad:



    http://appcrawlr.com/ios-apps/best-apps-drag-and-drop?q=drag+and+drop&query=best-apps-drag-and-drop&deviceSeo=iphone,ipad&prefix=top-apps&action=seoProcess&controller=app&&_rv=1



    I think you're kind of proving my point. Any developer can come up with a workaround for drag and drop with no mouse. I use GoToMyPC on iPad and iPhone. Yes you can drag and drop but it's a horrible two finger gesture that I always forget how to use. If Apple would just implement a simple, gesture that everyone can intuitively use for drag and drop, it would solve the problem. No one wants to fiddle with a different implementation for each app.

     

    The real problem is that there is no motivation for Apple to respond to this because we really don't need drag and drop on a small, multitouch screen with no true multitask or multiple window option. Once they have 2 or more windows on the screen at once, they will need to address this in some way. Until then, not enough iOS users care.

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  • Reply 46 of 90
    wood1208 wrote: »
    Apple is a corporation like any and care to make money for their investors and employees. So, if market demands than they will make it. Apple or any corporation has common denominator and that is to serve customer's need and in process make money. Plus, iphone 5c/5s can't do Apple-Pay by itself like iphone 6 so Apple have to integrate NFC in new 4" plus/minus size iphone and release to market so those customers who don't like larger size iphone can get on Apple-pay bandwagon.

    I'm hoping that is the case. We'll see. When the iPhone 5c/5s reaches EOL, Apple will either have a smaller device for 4" fans, or they won't because that market isn't sufficiently profitable. Consumer tastes will change with time. For now, the 5s is still a current product, if not the latest. But as of September 2014, it was Apple's flagship. It's hardly "obsolete" as some here tried to argue.
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  • Reply 47 of 90
    Dick Applebaum, doesn't your last incredibly long comment just prove the point that two separate gestures, each of which, as you indicate, can be mapped to multiple actions, is better than one? Wasn't you're first contention that Force Touch is the same as Long Press and therefore doesn't add value? Be careful what argument you make; it may defeat you're initial contention. As you you have now done.

    My assertion is that everything that can be done with Force Touch -- can be done by Long Press -- without the cost and reliability implications of additional hardware.

    Certainly, it is always advantageous to have choices -- but often, the are not worth the additional costs or problems.

    Without you being more specific, I think I have been very consistent in my assertions.
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  • Reply 48 of 90



    1. Force Touch - easy to predict

     

    2. Dual-Camera iPhone - nonsense.

     

    Unless the iPhone is going to take 3D photos and video, having dual cameras makes no sense at all.

     

    It is far easier for Apple to add a high-resolution sensor camera with a bent light path similar to the Sony Cybershot T-series cameras of years ago.  This would keep the iPhone nice and thin.  This would give Apple the option of having also a zoom lens while keeping optical stabilization.

     

    Since Sony makes the camera for Apple, it would be easy for Sony to use its old bent light path technology for new cameras for Apple.

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  • Reply 49 of 90
    Quote:

    Originally Posted by oldmacs View Post



    No 4 inch :'(. Hopefully there is a 4 inch in development though and its just not been seen.

    Agreed. I don't want to sound unappreciative of Apple's efforts with the 6's but I'm still running a "heavy" 4s with a cracked screen just b/c of it's relatively small form factor. 

     

    I want all the latests innards of the 6 (cameras, applepay, security, etc.) but in a smaller size.

     

    Best.

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  • Reply 50 of 90
    Quote:

    Originally Posted by Rogifan View Post

     
    Quote:

    Originally Posted by Benjamin Frost View Post







    Yep.







    Good to see Ive man up about the protruding camera lens. His disappointment is shared by me.







    Great minds think alike.

     




    He didn't "man up" about anything. You're just choosing to believe what you want to believe. 74 million people don't give a shit about this small camera bulge.

     

     

    Maybe.

     

    Ive does, though.

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  • Reply 51 of 90
    wigby wrote: »
    What about dragging around events on the calendar, credit cards in Passbook, images, shapes, videos and text in various iWork apps ...


    There are lots of 3rd-party apps that use gestures to drag and drop -- architecture/CADD, Interior design, landscape design, page layout, to-do lists, paper dolls ...



    Have a look at this top 100 drag and drop apps for iPhone and iPad:

    [URL=http://appcrawlr.com/ios-apps/best-apps-drag-and-drop?q=drag+and+drop


    I think you're kind of proving my point. Any developer can come up with a workaround for drag and drop with no mouse. I use GoToMyPC on iPad and iPhone. Yes you can drag and drop but it's a horrible two finger gesture that I always forget how to use. If Apple would just implement a simple, gesture that everyone can intuitively use for drag and drop, it would solve the problem. No one wants to fiddle with a different implementation for each app.

    The real problem is that there is no motivation for Apple to respond to this because we really don't need drag and drop on a small, multitouch screen with no true multitask or multiple window option. Once they have 2 or more windows on the screen at once, they will need to address this in some way. Until then, not enough iOS users care.

    I agree that Apple has been rather lax (careless ?) in specifying and enforcing Human Interface Guidelines for gestures. Sometimes Apple does this on purpose to see what the developers come up with -- currently a hodge-podge.

    However, Apple can easily correct this by explicitly defining the gestures -- then requiring that they be implemented in all apps submitted after a certain date.

    As you've pointed out -- multiple-window iPad displays (and dragon-droppings among them) will, likely provide the impetus ... and I suspect that the Apple / IBM partnership has a lot to do with it.

    My assertion is that Apple does not need to add expensive and problematical force touch hardware to the iPad to accomplish this objective.

    Given the choice, I'd rather see them clean up their gesture act -- and spend the money on more RAM and Flash storage ...


    In addition, Swift * is giving Apple the opportunity to re-think a lot of software/hardware implementations in ways that were unimaginable a few years ago.

    * I've been taking the free Stanford course on Developing iOS app with Swift. The instructor, Paul Hegerty, is a long time Obj-C programmer from the NeXT days. He's really a great teacher and he really knows his stuff! You can tell by what and how he teaches -- where he thinks the platform will evolve. For example, I infer that things like the currently kludgey implementations of dragon-droppings will be streamlined, under-the-covers, by re-implementation of things like gestures to take maxim advantage of GPU hardware, RAM, etc.



    https://itunes.apple.com/us/course/developing-ios-8-apps-swift/id961180099

    Look at the last 3 minutes of the video for lesson 12 @ 1:11.08 to get some ideas of the possibilities.
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  • Reply 52 of 90

    Seems to me that Force Touch is just more intuitive and enjoyable to use than the long press. One of the things that fascinates me about Apple is their attention to the subtle, split-second behaviors and thoughts that we process during routine tasks. For instance, I feel a twinge of anxiety and frustration waiting for the menu to pop up during the long press. A quick, Force Touch would likely make me more efficient, and less frustrated. Not only that, but using force to solve problems is in our nature, waiting is certainly not (despite our enlarged forebrain, we're still animals). TV's not working.. give it a whack. Want to jump higher in a game.. press harder! I think people will learn this new behavior very quickly.

     

    And technically, it doesn't seem like it would be much of a challenge relative to Apple's other engineering feats. It doesn't need to be specific, just be able to register when there is extra force applied to the screen in general, while using the capacitance sensor to pinpoint the location.

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  • Reply 53 of 90
    foggyhillfoggyhill Posts: 4,767member
    Quote:

    Originally Posted by PatchyThePirate View Post

     

    Seems to me that Force Touch is just more intuitive and enjoyable to use than the long press. One of the things that fascinates me about Apple is their attention to the subtle, split-second behaviors and thoughts that we process during routine tasks. For instance, I feel a twinge of anxiety and frustration waiting for the menu to pop up during the long press. A quick, Force Touch would likely make me more efficient, and less frustrated. Not only that, but using force to solve problems is in our nature, waiting is certainly not (despite our enlarged forebrain, we're still animals). TV's not working.. give it a whack. Want to jump higher in a game.. press harder! I think people will learn this new behavior very quickly.

     

    And technically, it doesn't seem like it would be much of a challenge relative to Apple's other engineering feats. It doesn't need to be specific, just be able to register when there is extra force applied to the screen in general, while using the capacitance sensor to pinpoint the location.


     

    The force of the touch is certainly more intuitive. Long presses are kind of guessing game when they should be considered long to different people; windows would have people adjust this in some UI panel. But, Apple will not do this.

    A tap vs a press is for most people a lot less ambiguous.

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  • Reply 54 of 90
    One thing I really hate about using Siri is that long press needed to activate it simply takes longer than is common when having a conversation, which is how I wish to talk with Siri. Using (and loving) Amazon Echo has made this painfully clear.

    Could Force Touch be used on the Home Button or display so that we can start calling Siri instantly?
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  • Reply 55 of 90
    wizard69wizard69 Posts: 13,377member
    Yep.

    Good to see Ive man up about the protruding camera lens. His disappointment is shared by me.

    Great minds think alike.

    Is your phone in a case?
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  • Reply 56 of 90
    rogifanrogifan Posts: 10,669member
    ?Watch flexible retina display is OLED. Does this mean the 6S will be sporting an OLED screen and perhaps we'll get a dark theme for iOS 9?
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  • Reply 57 of 90
    wizard69wizard69 Posts: 13,377member
    mac_128 wrote: »
    Interesting then that Ive, THE DESIGNER, would even address it then. If nobody cares, least of all Ive, then why call attention to it? Why call it a compromise? A compromise is generally understood to be a solution that nobody likes.
    Baloney. A compromise is what happens when you balance competing needs. Often an individual is the one making the compromises.
    Odd then, that Ive would make such a disclosure publicly, especially if it was NOT his compromise. I would expect if Ive intended it, he would have chosen different words, and talked about how he organically worked the larger camera into the overall beauty and design of the phone.
    I've is not a magician, like all designers he has to work within the limits of physics and current technology. Beyond that you need to realize that many people buy iPhones for the cameras and do so with a high expectation of good performance. There are only a few people that are seriously upset about the ring, most people realize that it is a requirement to deliver iPhones high quality photos. As such they made the right decision to go after quality.
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  • Reply 58 of 90
    wizard69wizard69 Posts: 13,377member
    Having your cake +
    Eating your cake +
    Deadline =
    Do what you gotta do. Engineering is not magic. It's practical problem solving. Designers want it all, of course. Physics be damned.

    I find these forum digs at the protruding lens as a sign of obsessive compulsive disorder. If it's that much of a problem, there are plenty of other smartphones in the sea.

    It is certainly a mental health problem of some sort. I'm not qualified to say it is obsessive compulsive but certainly a failure grasp reality.
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  • Reply 59 of 90
    wizard69wizard69 Posts: 13,377member
    rogifan wrote: »
    ?Watch flexible retina display is OLED. Does this mean the 6S will be sporting an OLED screen and perhaps we'll get a dark theme for iOS 9?

    I have no idea but honestly would prefer an LCD screen.
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  • Reply 60 of 90
    Quote:

    Originally Posted by SolipsismY View Post



    One thing I really hate about using Siri is that long press needed to activate it simply takes longer than is common when having a conversation, which is how I wish to talk with Siri. Using (and loving) Amazon Echo has made this painfully clear.



    Could Force Touch be used on the Home Button or display so that we can start calling Siri instantly?



    I guessing that on the 6s there's a good chance we'll be able to query Siri with a "Hey Siri," without being plugged into a power source, and possibly this will accompanied by a dedicated voice chip that will allow voice command processing without an internet connection. That, plus the force touch, would make for a compelling upgrade option for anyone holding out on the new, bigger screened phones.

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