Interchange fees, hubris key challenges to Australian Apple Pay rollout

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  • Reply 101 of 138
    crowleycrowley Posts: 10,453member
    ^ I think I'm following now. Putting the iPhone against the NFC terminal will show your cards on the home screen, with your default card selected, but changeable, and you finalise the payment by touching the home button.

    I didn't know you could change your card during the process, that's good. Can imagine it being a bit fiddly because of the way some NFC terminals are mounted though, it'd be good if there was a way to do it before putting your phone against the NFC terminal (i.e. getting ready while in the checkout queue).
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  • Reply 102 of 138
    cnocbuicnocbui Posts: 3,613member

    The servers Apple Pay relies on are in the US, right?

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  • Reply 103 of 138
    sflagelsflagel Posts: 884member
    crowley wrote: »
    ^ I think I'm following now. Putting the iPhone against the NFC terminal will show your cards on the home screen, with your default card selected, but changeable, and you finalise the payment by touching the home button.

    I didn't know you could change your card during the process, that's good. Can imagine it being a bit fiddly because of the way some NFC terminals are mounted though, it'd be good if there was a way to do it before putting your phone against the NFC terminal (i.e. getting ready while in the checkout queue).

    I agree, I never noticed that neither. That changes that part of my experience. Will try out (although, given that Apple Pay is limited to £20 in the UK, I may as well just use my Apple Watch; using theiPhone only makes sense for amounts that have to be verified by fingerprint, ie over £20, which hardly is anywhere in the UK ).
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  • Reply 104 of 138
    cnocbuicnocbui Posts: 3,613member
    Quote:

    Originally Posted by NolaMacGuy View Post





    why are you constantly spouting nonsense bullshit? oh yeah, trolling, as usual.



    Apple Pay isn't a copy of Australia.



    Apple pay doesn't represent a "free ride" for Apple. they built up a service that adds value.



    Apple pay does represent a free ride for Apple.  It can only work at all by piggybacking on the costly infrastructure put in place and paid for by the banks.  Saying Apple built up a service is like saying a hitchhiker grew a thumb.  Apple Pay only adds value in countries like the US where the electronic payment systems currently in use are insecure and outdated.  We are talking about Australia where this is absolutely not the case and hasn't been for a long time.

     

    What value does Apple Pay add in Australia that you think justifies Apple taking a substantial cut of transaction fees?

     

     

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  • Reply 105 of 138
    cnocbuicnocbui Posts: 3,613member
    Quote:

    Originally Posted by NolaMacGuy View Post





    free ride? as if Apple wasn't also creating value. get real dude.



    In the context of the Payment systems and infrastructure already in place in Australia, explain what value is Apple creating?

     

    From the banks point of view it has nothing to offer.  Security?  No, they already have that.  Convenience?  Not for the banks.  From Australian banks point of view, what incentive is there for them?  More revenue?  No, just more expense and an actual decline in revenue.

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  • Reply 106 of 138
    plovellplovell Posts: 826member



    And there are only four of them. A right-royal cartel.

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  • Reply 107 of 138
    plovellplovell Posts: 826member
    Quote:

    Originally Posted by cnocbui View Post

     

    The servers Apple Pay relies on are in the US, right?




    The signup stuff is handled by, or perhaps "through", Apple's servers. The actual process is done by the card issuer (Visa, MasterCard, AmEx, etc)

     

    For actual payment I believe that the transaction goes directly to the issuer. Apple does not get the purchase transaction.

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  • Reply 108 of 138
    plovellplovell Posts: 826member
    Quote:

    Originally Posted by saarek View Post

     
    Quote:

    Originally Posted by SpamSandwich View Post



    As soon as your preferred retailers are hacked and your information is compromised you'll think twice about Apple Pay and Apple's unequaled security measures.


    Why would my information be hacked? The retailer has no more data than if I'd used chip and pin. They don't keep my details on some secret file.

    Actually, the retailer with chip+PIN has more information than is the case with AP. With AP, they don't get your actual card number, for example, which is one of the merchant gripes that CurrentC is supposed to address (although poorly).

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  • Reply 109 of 138
    plovellplovell Posts: 826member
    Quote:

    Originally Posted by ascii View Post

     
    Quote:
    Originally Posted by Roake View Post

     



    Inflation = fees on cash.  Loss of investment revenues = fees on cash.


    I wasn't saying you should keep all your money in cash under the mattress, just that you could avoid transaction fees and improve anonymity by using cash.

     

    For example instead of using cards everywhere, which tells your bank and/or credit card company everywhere you've been, just take a few hundred out of the bank every Monday, and use that for the rest of the week.




    I guess you haven't yet been hit up for the transaction fee for withdrawing cash. Many banks do at ATMs, of course, but some also do even at the teller window.

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  • Reply 110 of 138
    gatorguygatorguy Posts: 24,769member
    plovell wrote: »

    The signup stuff is handled by, or perhaps "through", Apple's servers. The actual process is done by the card issuer (Visa, MasterCard, AmEx, etc)

    For actual payment I believe that the transaction goes directly to the issuer. Apple does not get the purchase transaction.
    I think the transaction still goes to Apple but they don't keep the details on file for any significant time after the payment takes place. I'm guessing that means they may retain some anonymized transaction information but not "personally-identifiable". The one part that they don't give much detail on is how your recent ApplePay transactions end up in Passbook/Wallet.

    In any event Apple is clear they don't keep your personal transaction history. I wouldn't worry one iota about the safety of the details.
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  • Reply 111 of 138
    plovellplovell Posts: 826member
    Quote:

    Originally Posted by Gatorguy View Post

     
    Quote:

    Originally Posted by plovell View Post





    The signup stuff is handled by, or perhaps "through", Apple's servers. The actual process is done by the card issuer (Visa, MasterCard, AmEx, etc)



    For actual payment I believe that the transaction goes directly to the issuer. Apple does not get the purchase transaction.


    I think the transaction still goes to Apple but they don't keep the details on file for any significant time after the payment takes place. I'm guessing that means they may retain some anonymized transaction information but not "personally-identifiable". The one part that they don't give much detail on is how your recent ApplePay transactions end up in Passbook/Wallet.



    In any event Apple is clear they don't keep your personal transaction history. I wouldn't worry one iota about the safety of the details.



    Actually, I'm pretty sure that the transaction doesn't go to Apple. Here's why:- your iPhone converses via NFC with the merchant's terminal, and the transaction then goes to the appropriate card issuer (Visa, MC, AmEx, etc). They don't route it through Apple, but directly from their back-office system, or whatever.

     

    You are correct that the signup process goes via Apple, or at least seems to (how else does your iPhone know where/how to send the signup?). Maybe Apple handles an initial handshake and then hands off to a direct connection, or somesuch - I don't know. But for the purchase transaction there seems to be no way for Apple to be in the loop, as far as I can tell.

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  • Reply 112 of 138
    solipsismysolipsismy Posts: 5,099member
    gatorguy wrote: »
    I think the transaction still goes to Apple but they don't keep the details on file for any significant time after the payment takes place. I'm guessing that means they may retain some anonymized transaction information but not "personally-identifiable". The one part that they don't give much detail on is how your recent ApplePay transactions end up in Passbook/Wallet.

    If they do keep anonymized data to get a better understanding of Apple Pay usage, which is something I stated I recently, it would make no sense to do some pointlessly circuitous routing of transactions through Apple's servers when they can simply look at the Passbook/Wallet app and send the data back with diagnostic info, assuming one hasn't opted out.
    In any event Apple is clear they don't keep your personal transaction history. I wouldn't worry one iota about the safety of the details.

    No, it's not clear. In fact, it's so unclear there there is zero evidence to support they keep any personal transaction history.
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  • Reply 113 of 138
    gatorguygatorguy Posts: 24,769member
    solipsismy wrote: »
    If they do keep anonymized data to get a better understanding of Apple Pay usage, which is something I stated I recently, it would make no sense to do some pointlessly circuitous routing of transactions through Apple's servers when they can simply look at the Passbook/Wallet app and send the data back with diagnostic info, assuming one hasn't opted out.
    No, it's not clear. In fact, it's so unclear there there is zero evidence to support they keep any personal transaction history.

    http://www.apple.com/apple-pay/

    Based on Apple's description I think it's evident the transaction does route via Apple (if not why do they get a cut of the processing) but no personal transaction information is retained by Apple. Certainly possible there's a disclaimer in there somewhere tho making an exception for opt-in loyalty or reward cards. I didn't look for one.
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  • Reply 114 of 138
    solipsismysolipsismy Posts: 5,099member
    crowley wrote: »
    Seriously, do you have to be so hostile all the time.

    Yes, I will do what I can to prevent people like you from trolling the forum by talking out your ass.
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  • Reply 115 of 138
    solipsismysolipsismy Posts: 5,099member
    gatorguy wrote: »
    http://www.apple.com/apple-pay/

    Based on Apple's description I think it's evident the transaction does route via Apple

    I see nothing in there that says the transaction data goes through Apple's severs. I seem to recall them saying they are specifically kept out of that loop. Device to NFC terminal to retailers POS service to financial institution and back again.
    if not why do they get a cut of the processing

    Why wouldn't they? Do you think it costs nothing to invest a secure process that helps protect fraud? Do you think the code on their device is naturally forming?
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  • Reply 116 of 138
    gatorguygatorguy Posts: 24,769member
    solipsismy wrote: »
    I see nothing in there that says the transaction data goes through Apple's severs. I seem to recall them saying they are specifically kept out of that loop. Device to NFC terminal to retailers POS service to financial institution and back again.
    Why wouldn't they? Do you think it costs nothing to invest a secure process that helps protect fraud? Do you think the code on their device is naturally forming?
    Soli, are you familiar with what an interchange fee is?
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  • Reply 117 of 138
    solipsismysolipsismy Posts: 5,099member
    gatorguy wrote: »
    Soli, are you familiar with what an interchange fee is?

    An IF has nothing to do with your claim that all payments made from an Apple Device first traverse through Apple's servers before heading to their banks. Why would banks agree to any of this and why would the biggest draw for Apple Pay and bank adoption be to protect their customers from any circuitous routing of funds the way Google Wallet does it. I guess it's possible Apple has been lying to us for a year and expects that they will never get caught, but do you think that is a realistic scenario? I don't.
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  • Reply 118 of 138
    gatorguygatorguy Posts: 24,769member
    solipsismy wrote: »
    An IF has nothing to do with your claim that all payments made from an Apple Device first traverse through Apple's servers before heading to their banks. Why would banks agree to any of this and why would the biggest draw for Apple Pay and bank adoption be to protect their customers from any circuitous routing of funds the way Google Wallet does it. I guess it's possible Apple has been lying to us for a year and expects that they will never get caught, but do you think that is a realistic scenario? I don't.
    Why would Apple have lied if the transaction routes via Apple? All they say is they don't KEEP the personal transaction data, not that it never went thru their system unless you saw something I didn't.

    Now they do specifically say your CC# is not stored on Apple servers, but that's not the same thing as not seeing a transaction occurred. In fact I seem to recall Apple saying banks had to agree to Apple collecting some transaction info to accurately audit the fees they owed to Apple for handling the payment.
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  • Reply 119 of 138
    solipsismysolipsismy Posts: 5,099member
    gatorguy wrote: »
    Why would Apple have lied if the transaction routes via Apple? All they say is they don't KEEP the personal transaction data, not that it never went thru their system unless you saw something I didn't.

    From Apple's site: Payment transactions are between you, the merchant, and your bank.

    If that's not accurate then I suggest we all sign for a class action lawsuit.
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  • Reply 120 of 138
    plovellplovell Posts: 826member
    Quote:

    Originally Posted by SolipsismY View Post

     
    Quote:

    Originally Posted by Gatorguy View Post



    http://www.apple.com/apple-pay/



    Based on Apple's description I think it's evident the transaction does route via Apple




    I see nothing in there that says the transaction data goes through Apple's severs. I seem to recall them saying they are specifically kept out of that loop. Device to NFC terminal to retailers POS service to financial institution and back again.

    Gator - I believe that Soli is correct on this. I read the EMV docs that describe how tokenized transactions are done and it does seem to me that the transaction goes from the merchant to the payment processor (one of the EMV, etc). There isn't a place on the path for Apple to handle the transaction.

     

    For signup, though, there is obviously a step through Apple's servers. How else can a signup get from your phone to the card issuer? But for purchase transactions, your phone is dealing with the merchant and the merchant handles it.

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