If you require your employees to be on site for something that you deem a part of their workday duties, then should pay them for that time. If they are indeed waiting up to a quarter-hour just to be allowed to leave, then that should be reflected in their hours worked, and if that gets them from part-time to full-time as a result, or into overtime, that should be reflected in their benefits and pay.
Goodwill and an office are no different from an Apple Store. You can steal thousands of dollars worth of stuff at both.
The bag check thing was stupid. Doesn't Apple keep inventory and security cameras around?
Anyone who works at a corner store or bank knows how this works.
If you're saying the lawsuit was stupid, I agree. If you are suggesting Apple was stupid for their bag checks, which will no doubt continue, then we disagree.
If you require your employees to be on site for something that you deem a part of their workday duties, then should pay them for that time. If they are indeed waiting up to a quarter-hour just to be allowed to leave, then that should be reflected in their hours worked, and if that gets them from part-time to full-time as a result, or into overtime, that should be reflected in their benefits and pay.
I am on the fence on this one. On one side, why should
A company pay for your choice of carrying a big bag when
You can avoided. I mean, how much stuff do you really need
To bring into work? Also, some people can see this as an
Opportunity to milk the clock a little, the bigger the bag, the
More time it will take to search it, the more money the
Company will have to pay. So I am really not sure if I support
Either way, pay or not pay time for bag search. So, I think that
If you work at a place that searches you bag on the way out,
Don't bring a bag unless it is really necessary.
My recollection of those notices - which recollection my be faulty - is that I was given the option to participate or opt out.
I don't resent them, in fact I rather appreciate being notified that something which might affect me is being addressed,
when I hitherto had no notion it was feasible. That said, I can't recall ever tagging along, except for the one about Kindle price refunds.
Class action lawsuits generally do not result in much being paid out to individuals who were deemed to be a part of the lawsuit. What happens is you have a few people being the claimants (many times lawyers go out and find the claimants - not the claimants go to the lawyer and say we want to take x to court)..... then apply for the court case to be turned into a class action lawsuit. The claimants don't pay any legal fees (I would not be surprised if the law firms don't sometimes give the claimants money), and if the lawsuit wins there is a pool of money set aside which will often see exorbitant legal fees deducted from the settlement. In some ways it is the legal version of extortion - in the same way the patent system has turned into a legal version of extortion. There are lawyers out there that have personal fortunes in the 100s of millions of dollars from class action lawsuits, while most of the "claimants" end up with a few pennies, maybe a coupon.....
If you're saying the lawsuit was stupid, I agree. If you are suggesting Apple was stupid for their bag checks, which will no doubt continue, then we disagree.
Ok I'll play along
So you have a situation where you have 300 employees. 286 of them don't bring anything with themselves to work. That means when they arrive to work 286 of them can go straight to work - no locker check in (unless cell phones are forbidden on the floor like Walgreens) but these other 14 people will have to stop, check their bag into a locker, close it, lock it then go to work. Do these people also get to arrive to their position late by 3-7 minutes past their start time because their job starts at 9am and technically they got there "in time?" I'm guessing they don't consider this stealing because they were in the building right st 9am the problem is these 14 people are NEVER to their assign post on time ever because "I had to check in my stuff".
How is this fair to the other 286 people? I'm sure their employer has told them time and time again "your job starts at 9am not 9:07". And I'll also wager these same people punch their time card BEFORE checking their stuff into the locker too.
I know this for a fact because we deal with this all the time at Walgreens. These people don't even recognize they are stealing from the company when they punch first then check in their stuff. They feel Walgreens should pay these 14 people to take care of their business whereas the other 286 employees leave their stuff locked in their car and arrive at their station on time.
So this person who represents the "workers of the world unite we have a right to bring in bags and leave with them unsearched so we can leave on time" are crapping all over the rights of the 286 people who just arrived to work and started on time because they feel entitled?
This is really straight forward:
Bring a bag to work = do the time (be searched on your own time because you chose that option vs the 286 that chose not to and they get to walk out the door when their shift is over.
Plus I think the 14 people should be handed their time clock card as they leave for the floor not as they walk in. Then as they see their paycheck docked week after week making slightly less than people who didn't bring bags to work it will show them "this works both ways. If you want your full paycheck arrive to work before your shift"
Again I speak from actual experience. Walgreens went to a "you'll get your card to punch in when you're ACTUALLY ready to work, not when you "got to work". It was a little victory for the 286 of us that leave our stuff in the car and are ready to work on time.
I am on the fence on this one. On one side, why should
A company pay for your choice of carrying a big bag when
You can avoided. I mean, how much stuff do you really need
To bring into work? Also, some people can see this as an
Opportunity to milk the clock a little, the bigger the bag, the
More time it will take to search it, the more money the
Company will have to pay. So I am really not sure if I support
Either way, pay or not pay time for bag search. So, I think that
If you work at a place that searches you bag on the way out,
Don't bring a bag unless it is really necessary.
What do you think would be the result of the lawsuit... yep - you guessed it... a ban on all "bags" being brought into the Apple store so you would have to find your own off-premises location to store them.
Apple stores have a right to search - too many bad apples working for them (pun intended) and every retailer I worked for in my youth did this. But they should have instituted a gentler policy. I guess a lot of bad apples among the store managers - btw do the managers get searched, too? Finally, I wonder if the former employees who sued were spies sent by Apple's competitors.
If you're saying the lawsuit was stupid, I agree. If you are suggesting Apple was stupid for their bag checks, which will no doubt continue, then we disagree.
I can't speak for the lawsuit since I don't know the details but anyone who's worked at a bank or even a wal mart will tell you, cameras and inventory do all the work for you. No need to check a bag as employees leave.
This case was a foregone conclusion because of the Supreme Court's ruling in a similar matter in 2013 or 2014.
But I always enjoy the armchair lawyering that comes out after such cases are decided. This was by no means a frivolous lawsuit - as evidenced that a similar case went all the way to the Supreme Court - as there was obviously a bonafide issue to be decided. Namely, can employers impose non-compensated time on employees for specific purposes. The decision was yes. While it may seem like a great idea to wrap up your view in the anti-lawsuit and pro-Apple of "screw those employees", you might want to consider the precedent set here around that aspect of non-compensated time.
As for those who propose retribution on employees who participated in the class action, besides being blatantly illegal (not just civilly, but potentially criminally), it would be a rather immature way to run a business.
Don't worry too much. As you can read above the Apple extremists are in full force with this one.
Had this been a Microsoft Store lawsuit these same people would be screaming "BS!!! This was outright illegal!!! Sue MS!!!!!"
I am on the fence on this one. On one side, why should
A company pay for your choice of carrying a big bag when
You can avoided. I mean, how much stuff do you really need
To bring into work? Also, some people can see this as an
Opportunity to milk the clock a little, the bigger the bag, the
More time it will take to search it, the more money the
Company will have to pay. So I am really not sure if I support
Either way, pay or not pay time for bag search. So, I think that
If you work at a place that searches you bag on the way out,
Don't bring a bag unless it is really necessary.
Is it just big bags, or does it also include purses? It's quite common for women to carry purses in all areas, but backpacks can also be common in certain areas where people don't have cars nearby, perhaps at NYC stores where they do take public transportation.
Fine, the judge through it out, and Apple doesn't think it should pay for keeping employees over their scheduled times, I'm not going to spend a lot of time and effort on such a minor issue where the employees can get other jobs in a country with full employment, but if this was my company, I'd add in a 5 minutes buffer, to start, so that employee bags can be checked, or perhaps even setup a break room or lockers that is detached from the store area so that their bags are not kept in an area that could lead to employee theft.
Is it just big bags, or does it also include purses? It's quite common for women to carry purses in all areas, but backpacks can also be common in certain areas where people don't have cars nearby, perhaps at NYC stores where they do take public transportation.
Fine, the judge through it out, and Apple doesn't think it should pay for keeping employees over their scheduled times, I'm not going to spend a lot of time and effort on such a minor issue where the employees can get other jobs in a country with full employment, but if this was my company, I'd add in a 5 minutes buffer, to start, so that employee bags can be checked, or perhaps even setup a break room or lockers that is detached from the store area so that their bags are not kept in an area that could lead to employee theft.
Where do you draw the line.... I mean if you believe you should pay for an extra 5 minutes for them to get in the store, then should you not also pay them to drive to work... You are taking time out of their lives to force them to spend their own time to drive to work. Then of course some people live 1.5 hours out so you will have to pay those people for their choices to live so far away. The simple answer is DON'T bring personal items to work.
So you have a situation where you have 300 employees. 286 of them don't bring anything with themselves to work. That means when they arrive to work 286 of them can go straight to work - no locker check in (unless cell phones are forbidden on the floor like Walgreens) but these other 14 people will have to stop, check their bag into a locker, close it, lock it then go to work. Do these people also get to arrive to their position late by 3-7 minutes past their start time because their job starts at 9am and technically they got there "in time?" I'm guessing they don't consider this stealing because they were in the building right st 9am the problem is these 14 people are NEVER to their assign post on time ever because "I had to check in my stuff".
How is this fair to the other 286 people? I'm sure their employer has told them time and time again "your job starts at 9am not 9:07". And I'll also wager these same people punch their time card BEFORE checking their stuff into the locker too.
I know this for a fact because we deal with this all the time at Walgreens. These people don't even recognize they are stealing from the company when they punch first then check in their stuff. They feel Walgreens should pay these 14 people to take care of their business whereas the other 286 employees leave their stuff locked in their car and arrive at their station on time.
So this person who represents the "workers of the world unite we have a right to bring in bags and leave with them unsearched so we can leave on time" are crapping all over the rights of the 286 people who just arrived to work and started on time because they feel entitled?
This is really straight forward:
Bring a bag to work = do the time (be searched on your own time because you chose that option vs the 286 that chose not to and they get to walk out the door when their shift is over.
Plus I think the 14 people should be handed their time clock card as they leave for the floor not as they walk in. Then as they see their paycheck docked week after week making slightly less than people who didn't bring bags to work it will show them "this works both ways. If you want your full paycheck arrive to work before your shift"
Again I speak from actual experience. Walgreens went to a "you'll get your card to punch in when you're ACTUALLY ready to work, not when you "got to work". It was a little victory for the 286 of us that leave our stuff in the car and are ready to work on time.
I don't think your scenario is fair. You're talking about pre-work actions. For that, the employee should be ready to go. I see this a lot in office buildings more than in retail. People come in, clock in, then go about getting coffee in the break room, etc. I'm very much a stickler for having all things completed so that my start time is when my head is fully into my work.
That said, at the end of the work day, it's the employer that is the one keeping the employee on the clocker later than the given time. In that case, the employer needs to start their bag check before the clock out time so the don't go over in hours, or they need to give those employees the time. If that isn't agreeable then they need to ban employees bringing large bags into the store, but I'm not sure that's feasible in a large cities where driving to work and using your car for storage is feasible.
Where do you draw the line.... I mean if you believe you should pay for an extra 5 minutes for them to get in the store, then should you not also pay them to drive to work... You are taking time out of their lives to force them to spend their own time to drive to work. Then of course some people live 1.5 hours out so you will have to pay those people for their choices to live so far away. The simple answer is DON'T bring personal items to work.
A purse is a bag....
The employee sought out and agreed to that position. The drive isn't inherent to working for the company, but being on site and not being able to leave as a result of the bag check is part of your work day.
The employee sought out and agreed to that position. The drive isn't inherent to working for the company, but being on site and not being able to leave as a result of the bag check is part of your work day.
Bringing personal items to work is not inherent to working for the company.... it is a personal decision to bring personal items to work.
Bringing personal items to work is not inherent to working for the company.... it is a personal decision to bring personal items to work.
Everyone brings "personal items" with them everywhere they go. Telling a woman she needs to wait 10 minutes after clocking out so some shift manager can come look in her purse with her ID, money, cards, phone, and medication, and, lavatory items is not fair.
Everyone brings "personal items" with them everywhere they go. Telling a woman she needs to wait 10 minutes after clocking out so some shift manager can come look in her purse with her ID, money, cards, phone, and medication, and, lavatory items is not fair.
I know plenty of people that bring all of those things in their pockets. My father has medication, he has a little pill case that fits with his wallet, cards, money, phone quite nicely in his pocket. I know plenty of women that don't bring purses.
The whole "don't bring a bag" blow-off is yet another example of the utter lack of realism and empathy for others shown by corporations and apparently federal judges (who are probably not being searched, and are paid well, as opposed to the employees whose case they tossed out). "Doesn't impact me, so I've no problem with it". Fail. People aren't uniform or machines.
People carry belongings for various legitimate reasons.
The bag check isn't the real problem. The lost time not being paid for being searched IS the problem.
No it isn't. And there IS no problem. The suit was thrown out, and that's it.
I know plenty of people that bring all of those things in their pockets. My father has medication, he has a little pill case that fits with his wallet, cards, money, phone quite nicely in his pocket. I know plenty of women that don't bring purses.
You know plenty of women in large cities where driving your car is let feasible that will carry no purse and will stuff a days worth of lavatory items in their pockets to carry around all day? I really doubt that.
Everyone brings "personal items" with them everywhere they go. Telling a woman she needs to wait 10 minutes after clocking out so some shift manager can come look in her purse with her ID, money, cards, phone, and medication, and, lavatory items is not fair.
Yes it is, if you want to work at an Apple Store. It's policy. It's what you agree to if you sign on. If you don't like it, find a job elsewhere.
Telling a woman she needs to wait 10 minutes after clocking out so some shift manager can come look in her purse with her ID, money, cards, phone, and medication, and, lavatory items is not fair.
Then she shouldn’t bring in her purse. Problem solved.
Yes it is, if you want to work at an Apple Store. It's policy. It's what you agree to if you sign on. If you don't like it, find a job elsewhere.
1) Which is what I previously stated.
2) Did they agree and sign such a document before starting that stated they would be held indefinitely until such time as someone can verify they are not stealing, or is that a policy that started after they had been working for the company?
Comments
If you're saying the lawsuit was stupid, I agree. If you are suggesting Apple was stupid for their bag checks, which will no doubt continue, then we disagree.
I am on the fence on this one. On one side, why should
A company pay for your choice of carrying a big bag when
You can avoided. I mean, how much stuff do you really need
To bring into work? Also, some people can see this as an
Opportunity to milk the clock a little, the bigger the bag, the
More time it will take to search it, the more money the
Company will have to pay. So I am really not sure if I support
Either way, pay or not pay time for bag search. So, I think that
If you work at a place that searches you bag on the way out,
Don't bring a bag unless it is really necessary.
My recollection of those notices - which recollection my be faulty - is that I was given the option to participate or opt out.
I don't resent them, in fact I rather appreciate being notified that something which might affect me is being addressed,
when I hitherto had no notion it was feasible. That said, I can't recall ever tagging along, except for the one about Kindle price refunds.
Class action lawsuits generally do not result in much being paid out to individuals who were deemed to be a part of the lawsuit. What happens is you have a few people being the claimants (many times lawyers go out and find the claimants - not the claimants go to the lawyer and say we want to take x to court)..... then apply for the court case to be turned into a class action lawsuit. The claimants don't pay any legal fees (I would not be surprised if the law firms don't sometimes give the claimants money), and if the lawsuit wins there is a pool of money set aside which will often see exorbitant legal fees deducted from the settlement. In some ways it is the legal version of extortion - in the same way the patent system has turned into a legal version of extortion. There are lawyers out there that have personal fortunes in the 100s of millions of dollars from class action lawsuits, while most of the "claimants" end up with a few pennies, maybe a coupon.....
Ok I'll play along
So you have a situation where you have 300 employees. 286 of them don't bring anything with themselves to work. That means when they arrive to work 286 of them can go straight to work - no locker check in (unless cell phones are forbidden on the floor like Walgreens) but these other 14 people will have to stop, check their bag into a locker, close it, lock it then go to work. Do these people also get to arrive to their position late by 3-7 minutes past their start time because their job starts at 9am and technically they got there "in time?" I'm guessing they don't consider this stealing because they were in the building right st 9am the problem is these 14 people are NEVER to their assign post on time ever because "I had to check in my stuff".
How is this fair to the other 286 people? I'm sure their employer has told them time and time again "your job starts at 9am not 9:07". And I'll also wager these same people punch their time card BEFORE checking their stuff into the locker too.
I know this for a fact because we deal with this all the time at Walgreens. These people don't even recognize they are stealing from the company when they punch first then check in their stuff. They feel Walgreens should pay these 14 people to take care of their business whereas the other 286 employees leave their stuff locked in their car and arrive at their station on time.
So this person who represents the "workers of the world unite we have a right to bring in bags and leave with them unsearched so we can leave on time" are crapping all over the rights of the 286 people who just arrived to work and started on time because they feel entitled?
This is really straight forward:
Bring a bag to work = do the time (be searched on your own time because you chose that option vs the 286 that chose not to and they get to walk out the door when their shift is over.
Plus I think the 14 people should be handed their time clock card as they leave for the floor not as they walk in. Then as they see their paycheck docked week after week making slightly less than people who didn't bring bags to work it will show them "this works both ways. If you want your full paycheck arrive to work before your shift"
Again I speak from actual experience. Walgreens went to a "you'll get your card to punch in when you're ACTUALLY ready to work, not when you "got to work". It was a little victory for the 286 of us that leave our stuff in the car and are ready to work on time.
I am on the fence on this one. On one side, why should
A company pay for your choice of carrying a big bag when
You can avoided. I mean, how much stuff do you really need
To bring into work? Also, some people can see this as an
Opportunity to milk the clock a little, the bigger the bag, the
More time it will take to search it, the more money the
Company will have to pay. So I am really not sure if I support
Either way, pay or not pay time for bag search. So, I think that
If you work at a place that searches you bag on the way out,
Don't bring a bag unless it is really necessary.
What do you think would be the result of the lawsuit... yep - you guessed it... a ban on all "bags" being brought into the Apple store so you would have to find your own off-premises location to store them.
I can't speak for the lawsuit since I don't know the details but anyone who's worked at a bank or even a wal mart will tell you, cameras and inventory do all the work for you. No need to check a bag as employees leave.
Don't worry too much. As you can read above the Apple extremists are in full force with this one.
Had this been a Microsoft Store lawsuit these same people would be screaming "BS!!! This was outright illegal!!! Sue MS!!!!!"
Happens all the time.
Is it just big bags, or does it also include purses? It's quite common for women to carry purses in all areas, but backpacks can also be common in certain areas where people don't have cars nearby, perhaps at NYC stores where they do take public transportation.
Fine, the judge through it out, and Apple doesn't think it should pay for keeping employees over their scheduled times, I'm not going to spend a lot of time and effort on such a minor issue where the employees can get other jobs in a country with full employment, but if this was my company, I'd add in a 5 minutes buffer, to start, so that employee bags can be checked, or perhaps even setup a break room or lockers that is detached from the store area so that their bags are not kept in an area that could lead to employee theft.
Is it just big bags, or does it also include purses? It's quite common for women to carry purses in all areas, but backpacks can also be common in certain areas where people don't have cars nearby, perhaps at NYC stores where they do take public transportation.
Fine, the judge through it out, and Apple doesn't think it should pay for keeping employees over their scheduled times, I'm not going to spend a lot of time and effort on such a minor issue where the employees can get other jobs in a country with full employment, but if this was my company, I'd add in a 5 minutes buffer, to start, so that employee bags can be checked, or perhaps even setup a break room or lockers that is detached from the store area so that their bags are not kept in an area that could lead to employee theft.
Where do you draw the line.... I mean if you believe you should pay for an extra 5 minutes for them to get in the store, then should you not also pay them to drive to work... You are taking time out of their lives to force them to spend their own time to drive to work. Then of course some people live 1.5 hours out so you will have to pay those people for their choices to live so far away. The simple answer is DON'T bring personal items to work.
A purse is a bag....
I don't think your scenario is fair. You're talking about pre-work actions. For that, the employee should be ready to go. I see this a lot in office buildings more than in retail. People come in, clock in, then go about getting coffee in the break room, etc. I'm very much a stickler for having all things completed so that my start time is when my head is fully into my work.
That said, at the end of the work day, it's the employer that is the one keeping the employee on the clocker later than the given time. In that case, the employer needs to start their bag check before the clock out time so the don't go over in hours, or they need to give those employees the time. If that isn't agreeable then they need to ban employees bringing large bags into the store, but I'm not sure that's feasible in a large cities where driving to work and using your car for storage is feasible.
The employee sought out and agreed to that position. The drive isn't inherent to working for the company, but being on site and not being able to leave as a result of the bag check is part of your work day.
The employee sought out and agreed to that position. The drive isn't inherent to working for the company, but being on site and not being able to leave as a result of the bag check is part of your work day.
Bringing personal items to work is not inherent to working for the company.... it is a personal decision to bring personal items to work.
Everyone brings "personal items" with them everywhere they go. Telling a woman she needs to wait 10 minutes after clocking out so some shift manager can come look in her purse with her ID, money, cards, phone, and medication, and, lavatory items is not fair.
Everyone brings "personal items" with them everywhere they go. Telling a woman she needs to wait 10 minutes after clocking out so some shift manager can come look in her purse with her ID, money, cards, phone, and medication, and, lavatory items is not fair.
I know plenty of people that bring all of those things in their pockets. My father has medication, he has a little pill case that fits with his wallet, cards, money, phone quite nicely in his pocket. I know plenty of women that don't bring purses.
Why so much hostility to workers here?
The whole "don't bring a bag" blow-off is yet another example of the utter lack of realism and empathy for others shown by corporations and apparently federal judges (who are probably not being searched, and are paid well, as opposed to the employees whose case they tossed out). "Doesn't impact me, so I've no problem with it". Fail. People aren't uniform or machines.
People carry belongings for various legitimate reasons.
The bag check isn't the real problem. The lost time not being paid for being searched IS the problem.
No it isn't. And there IS no problem. The suit was thrown out, and that's it.
Quit complaining and move on.
You know plenty of women in large cities where driving your car is let feasible that will carry no purse and will stuff a days worth of lavatory items in their pockets to carry around all day? I really doubt that.
Everyone brings "personal items" with them everywhere they go. Telling a woman she needs to wait 10 minutes after clocking out so some shift manager can come look in her purse with her ID, money, cards, phone, and medication, and, lavatory items is not fair.
Yes it is, if you want to work at an Apple Store. It's policy. It's what you agree to if you sign on. If you don't like it, find a job elsewhere.
Then she shouldn’t bring in her purse. Problem solved.
1) Which is what I previously stated.
2) Did they agree and sign such a document before starting that stated they would be held indefinitely until such time as someone can verify they are not stealing, or is that a policy that started after they had been working for the company?