i suspect it doesnt work that way because if they allowed it app devs would begin to introduce very small UI elements which in effect required a stylus to operate rather than by touch alone.
That's actually a very good point. I hadn't thought of it. But now, I'm going to use it, so thanks.
You're completely changing the narrative to fit your logic by adding in a recent comment about the Pencil from Ive's. Jobs never once said that a stylus was okay one way but not the other, he generalized the whole stylus concept as flawed without distinctions or we would have seen a Pencil on day one of the iPad. Which is fine, I'm not arguing the past but the present.
I'm also not asking for full navigation support fo the Pencil as I hate using a stylus for that purpose, might as well use your fingers. I just want to be able to use my Magic Mouse and Mac Keyboard together while the iPad Pro is sitting at my desk, that's it. Regardless of how good the new touch keyboard is, I don't want to use a portable keyboard or even touch the display while using the iPad Pro at my desk. This isn't some crazy request, I'm sure you even said the same thing about the stylus a year ago as you strike me as defend Apple's position no matter what kind of guy.
What will your answer be if Apple decides to add mouse support in an upcoming iOS 9 release, will you still be this staunch about it. I say no way, you'll back it up because Apple said it was okay. That is the real issue here, until Apple releases something, let it be a feature or device, it's all crap, even if it's not, like the Surface Pro which despite all of comments here, it's a good device, however you'll state as much solely because it doesn't have an Apple logo on it.
If and when Apple does finally release a convertible device and I have no doubt they will, just look at the iPad Pro, it's full of condescending technology that people here aggressively stated will never happen. Maybe this convertible will just simply switch the OS to iOS when the display is folded back, who knows, but I'll bet anything that their you'll be, calling it revolutionary, genius, etc. That's fine and I'll welcome it with open arms but don't piss all over a simple request that will make my life easier just because Apple doesn't or hasn't released the feature yet. It's not fair and just plain silly.
This post was not pointed to you directly but anyone who thinks that me wanting mouse support isn't a reasonable request.
That's wrong about Jobs. His point, which he explained, was that if a mobile device required a stylus to operate, it failed. Apple's mobile devices never required a stylus to operate, and that includes the Pro.
A short story I relate when this statement comes up is that when I bought the first 3G ipad, in May 2010, the sales person in the Apple Store asked me if I wanr]Ted a stylus with it, as I was intending g to do things with it that would be easier with a stylus, I bought it. Jobs was around back then, and you know he approved that for sale, as well those that came after. Jobs had nothing against a stylus. What he didn't like was the idea that you would need a stylus for the basic functionality of the device. This is cleverly designed to disallow that functionality.'
I don't see the need for mouse or trackpad support, though I wouldn't say it was a bad thing to add either. I don't understand why you don't understand that the way iOS 9 gives cursor support isn't good. It's very good.
I can't speak for others, but for myself, I see nothing wrong in offering more, even if I don't see the need for it.
I unferstand that graphic artists think the iPad Pro is better than the alternatives - but id good enough to convince an artist who now uses canvas as his medium of choice to switch? I'm not trying to criticize the iPad Pro - just trying to see its potential. I am not an artist - but my daughter is. She still prefers canvas, but she is just one data point.
There's a big difference. I haven't painted on canvas for a long time. But if you work in physical mediums, then this won't directly substitute, and no one is saying that it will.
But a lot of artists are digital, because their business is digital. In other words, their customers are those who publish through the digital medium, or who publish on paper, but whose product if made up digitally, and printed with halftone. Or they sell digital prints of their work.
For all of these, this is the way to go. Certainly, I can draw, or paint, a statue, but I can't sculpt one on the screen. Though, these days, I can draw something using a 3D app, and either have it carved from any medium I want, including stone, wood, and even metal, using a 3D carving machine, or cast from a mould made from my drawing, or have it 3D printed. So I suppose even a sculptor can use this do do their work, if they want to.
But, you see, art is about choices. Materials and techniques are up to the artist.
With the iPad Pro + Smart Keyboard, I have to reach the screen (something strongly criticized in the touchscreen notebooks), enable the on-screen keyboard, with two fingers move the cursor and close the keyboard. So that implementation is better than the Surface Pro keyboard with integrated trackpad. Are you sure of that?
You should read this article I posted before from SJ regarding notebooks with touchscreen, which are the same issues Apple have with the iPad Pro and the Smart Keyboard.
Have you used one of the Surface keyboards, because I have. They're not great. Serviceable in the latest versions, but not great. The trackpads are not good. Trackpads on laptop Windows machines aren't good as a category. Just read any review. Almost all reviews compare then to Apple's, and they always come up short. Well, the Surface cover keyboard trackpads are much worse. As I said, the new one is usable, which is better than the previous one which was way too small and insensitive.
Yes, and I agree with what he said. If you need to hunt and pick on the screen constantly, it's bad. But if you need to do something occasionally, it's not so bad. I don't use a keyboard with my iPads, and I'm not using one now with my Pro, that I'm typing on right now.
I'll tell you what I think Apple did wrong on the screen keyboard. On the bottom right side, they give us that double width keyboard key, and another double width numbers key. We really don't need two numbers keys, so the one on the right can go. We don't need a double width keyboard key. If they eliminated the numbers key there, and shrunk the keyboard key to a one key width, they could add the four key cursor control we have on other keyboards. But we have those four cursor keys on Apple Magic Keyboard, so what's the problem?
You're completely changing the narrative to fit your logic by adding in a recent comment about the Pencil from Ive's. Jobs never once said that a stylus was okay one way but not the other, he generalized the whole stylus concept as flawed without distinctions or we would have seen a Pencil on day one of the iPad.
Nola is spot on. This exactly the distinction. Pencil is a optional drawing accessory aimed at a subset of users. You can buy an iPad Pro and use it perfectly without the Pencil.
Jobs also said "let's not invent another one" in reference to the stylus.
I don't have an issue with Apple making a stylus for the iPad, but many on here ridiculed Samsung, and Microsoft for including a stylus (that aren't required for the UI) with their tablets/smartphones using the very same quotes Jobs made about a stylus. Those same people are now gushing over the Pencil. That's called hypocrisy.
Have you used one of the Surface keyboards, because I have. They're not great. Serviceable in the latest versions, but not great. The trackpads are not good. Trackpads on laptop Windows machines aren't good as a category. Just read any review. Almost all reviews compare then to Apple's, and they always come up short. Well, the Surface cover keyboard trackpads are much worse. As I said, the new one is usable, which is better than the previous one which was way too small and insensitive.
Yes, I have used them and are better than the previous version, and I even consider the tactile feel better than the MacBook. MacBook's trackpads are the best, that's an easy one. But we are talking about the iPad Pro. It's easy to said that the Surface Pro has a better trackpad and keyboard.
Quote:
Yes, and I agree with what he said. If you need to hunt and pick on the screen constantly, it's bad. But if you need to do something occasionally, it's not so bad. I don't use a keyboard with my iPads, and I'm not using one now with my Pro, that I'm typing on right now.
So I have an iPad Pro + Smart Keyboard for occasional usage, since it's won't give the best experience with it's keyboard. Is that what you saying?
Quote:
I'll tell you what I think Apple did wrong on the screen keyboard. On the bottom right side, they give us that double width keyboard key, and another double width numbers key. We really don't need two nights hers keys, so the one on the right can go. We don't need a double width keyboard key. If they eliminated the NJ bears key there, and shrunk the keyboard key to a one key width, they could add the four key cursor control we have on other keyboards. But we have those four cursor keys on Apple Magic Keyboard, so what's the problem?
Maybe for your type of usage, the on screen keyboard is good enough for you, but not for me and neither for the way Tim Cook positioned the iPad Pro as a possible desktop replacement.
Jobs also said "let's not invent another one" in reference to the stylus.
I don't have an issue with Apple making a stylus for the iPad, but many on here ridiculed Samsung, and Microsoft for including a stylus (that aren't required for the UI) with their tablets/smartphones using the very same quotes Jobs made about a stylus. Those same people are now gushing over the Pencil. That's called hypocrisy.
A stylus that is used for all operations on a tablet is quite different to a Pencil that is used only for handwriting and drawing applications. There is no hypocrisy in criticising the former and happily accepting the latter.
Because it's big, and heavy. People will lay it down on a table and then realize their necks hurt from looking down, so they'll prop it up, and then their arms will hurt from reaching up to touch it, and will then think "I wish it had a mouse"
Jobs also said "let's not invent another one" in reference to the stylus.
I don't have an issue with Apple making a stylus for the iPad, but many on here ridiculed Samsung, and Microsoft for including a stylus (that aren't required for the UI) with their tablets/smartphones using the very same quotes Jobs made about a stylus. Those same people are now gushing over the Pencil. That's called hypocrisy.
A stylus that is used for all operations on a tablet is quite different to a Pencil that is used only for handwriting and drawing applications. There is no hypocrisy in criticising the former and happily accepting the latter.
Except the stylus for Samsung/Microsoft devices are not necessary for the operation of the tablet. My friend has a Note smartphone and never once used the stylus. It is included but it is optional.
There's a big difference. I haven't painted on canvas for a long time. But if you work in physical mediums, then this won't directly substitute, and no one is saying that it will.
But a lot of artists are digital, because their business is digital. In other words, their customers are those who publish through the digital medium, or who publish on paper, but whose product if made up digitally, and printed with halftone. Or they sell digital prints of their work.
For all of these, this is the way to go. Certainly, I can draw, or paint, a statue, but I can't sculpt one on the screen. Though, these days, I can draw something using a 3D app, and either have it carved from any medium I want, including stone, wood, and even metal, using a 3D carving machine, or cast from a mould made from my drawing, or have it 3D printed. So I suppose even a sculptor can use this do do their work, if they want to.
But, you see, art is about choices. Materials and techniques are up to the artist.
Thanks - that's kinda what I was after: to get the opinion of a painter; whether a painter would consider making the digital screen and iPencil their primary mode of expression when they're not getting paid for it. As I said initially, to me there's still this "disconnectedness" between the tool and the drawing surface. Seems sterile somehow. Sorry - I'm rambling.
Still Apple went ahead with the current iPad Pro + Smart Keyboard implementation. Looks like MS did their homework a designed the Surface Pro keyboard with a touchpad, while Apple just ignored all the research they did on the issue.
Apple should make the iPad OS compatible with the magic keyboard and magic mouse.
It is a very different story from making a dedicated iPad keyboard and mouse. They're both bad trade-offs. Put together, they look like a clumsy Macbook. And seriously, I cannot see a goofy tablet laptop replacing a superior Macbook which Apple refined over the years.
Apple should make the iPad OS compatible with the magic keyboard and magic mouse.
It is a very different story from making a dedicated iPad keyboard and mouse. They're both bad trade-offs. Put together, they look like a clumsy Macbook. And seriously, I cannot see a goofy tablet laptop replacing a superior Macbook which Apple refined over the years.
What would you control with the trackpad? iOS has no cursor. It is completely impossible to remote-control iOS via pointing devices - that's the whole reason it exists.
What would you control with the trackpad? iOS has no cursor. It is completely impossible to remote-control iOS via pointing devices - that's the whole reason it exists.
It is for those who want to use their iPad in upright position, like a laptop.
Having said that. A big hurdle for my dad to use the laptop is the cursor and the keyboard. The touch interface is so much more intuitive to him. Adding a keyboard and pointing device would therefore clutter his iPad experience. So, I find Apple's sudden move to make the iPad look like a laptop somewhat strange. You're going to estrange a large demographic from the computer again.
It is for those who want to use their iPad in upright position, like a laptop.
Personally I do believe that an iPad should always be used flat with a smart cover. It offers the best affordance for touch. It obliterates the use of a mouse or trackpad. So, if the iPad is going to have a smart keyboard cover, then the iPad should lay flat and not stand upright.
It is for those who want to use their iPad in upright position, like a laptop.
That wasn't the question.
The question was what exactly a trackpad would control.
There is no pointer, no abstraction layer to the interface on iOS. You can only manipulate content directly. A trackpad or any other pointing device makes no sense whatsoever without a mouse pointer.
The question was what exactly a trackpad would control.
There is no pointer, no abstraction layer to the interface on iOS. You can only manipulate content directly. A trackpad or any other pointing device makes no sense whatsoever without a mouse pointer.
Good point. The iPad Pro is not a Surface. It has its own iOS.
It is the upright position of the iPad that necessitates a pointing device to solve the gorilla arm issue. But, you're right, iOS is designed for touch. There is a conflict between the hardware that wants to be vertical and the touch interface that wants to be horizontal.
Personally I do believe that an iPad should always be used flat with a smart cover. It offers the best affordance for touch. It obliterates the use of a mouse or trackpad. So, if the iPad is going to have a smart keyboard cover, then the iPad should lay flat and not stand upright.
If you are going to integrate a keyboard, then the 'smart keyboard cover' should actually be a 'smartcase keyboard' where the keyboard flips into the case. This way the screen stays flat at an ergonomic angle, ideal for touch.
But again, I am not a big fan of adding a subpar soft keyboard. The smartcase keyboard is only a solution to obliterate the need of a soft trackpad. The iPad should always be used flat, unless you're watching netflix movies.
Comments
That's actually a very good point. I hadn't thought of it. But now, I'm going to use it, so thanks.
That's wrong about Jobs. His point, which he explained, was that if a mobile device required a stylus to operate, it failed. Apple's mobile devices never required a stylus to operate, and that includes the Pro.
A short story I relate when this statement comes up is that when I bought the first 3G ipad, in May 2010, the sales person in the Apple Store asked me if I wanr]Ted a stylus with it, as I was intending g to do things with it that would be easier with a stylus, I bought it. Jobs was around back then, and you know he approved that for sale, as well those that came after. Jobs had nothing against a stylus. What he didn't like was the idea that you would need a stylus for the basic functionality of the device. This is cleverly designed to disallow that functionality.'
I don't see the need for mouse or trackpad support, though I wouldn't say it was a bad thing to add either. I don't understand why you don't understand that the way iOS 9 gives cursor support isn't good. It's very good.
I can't speak for others, but for myself, I see nothing wrong in offering more, even if I don't see the need for it.
There's a big difference. I haven't painted on canvas for a long time. But if you work in physical mediums, then this won't directly substitute, and no one is saying that it will.
But a lot of artists are digital, because their business is digital. In other words, their customers are those who publish through the digital medium, or who publish on paper, but whose product if made up digitally, and printed with halftone. Or they sell digital prints of their work.
For all of these, this is the way to go. Certainly, I can draw, or paint, a statue, but I can't sculpt one on the screen. Though, these days, I can draw something using a 3D app, and either have it carved from any medium I want, including stone, wood, and even metal, using a 3D carving machine, or cast from a mould made from my drawing, or have it 3D printed. So I suppose even a sculptor can use this do do their work, if they want to.
But, you see, art is about choices. Materials and techniques are up to the artist.
Have you used one of the Surface keyboards, because I have. They're not great. Serviceable in the latest versions, but not great. The trackpads are not good. Trackpads on laptop Windows machines aren't good as a category. Just read any review. Almost all reviews compare then to Apple's, and they always come up short. Well, the Surface cover keyboard trackpads are much worse. As I said, the new one is usable, which is better than the previous one which was way too small and insensitive.
Yes, and I agree with what he said. If you need to hunt and pick on the screen constantly, it's bad. But if you need to do something occasionally, it's not so bad. I don't use a keyboard with my iPads, and I'm not using one now with my Pro, that I'm typing on right now.
I'll tell you what I think Apple did wrong on the screen keyboard. On the bottom right side, they give us that double width keyboard key, and another double width numbers key. We really don't need two numbers keys, so the one on the right can go. We don't need a double width keyboard key. If they eliminated the numbers key there, and shrunk the keyboard key to a one key width, they could add the four key cursor control we have on other keyboards. But we have those four cursor keys on Apple Magic Keyboard, so what's the problem?
Jobs also said "let's not invent another one" in reference to the stylus.
I don't have an issue with Apple making a stylus for the iPad, but many on here ridiculed Samsung, and Microsoft for including a stylus (that aren't required for the UI) with their tablets/smartphones using the very same quotes Jobs made about a stylus. Those same people are now gushing over the Pencil. That's called hypocrisy.
Have you used one of the Surface keyboards, because I have. They're not great. Serviceable in the latest versions, but not great. The trackpads are not good. Trackpads on laptop Windows machines aren't good as a category. Just read any review. Almost all reviews compare then to Apple's, and they always come up short. Well, the Surface cover keyboard trackpads are much worse. As I said, the new one is usable, which is better than the previous one which was way too small and insensitive.
Yes, I have used them and are better than the previous version, and I even consider the tactile feel better than the MacBook. MacBook's trackpads are the best, that's an easy one. But we are talking about the iPad Pro. It's easy to said that the Surface Pro has a better trackpad and keyboard.
So I have an iPad Pro + Smart Keyboard for occasional usage, since it's won't give the best experience with it's keyboard. Is that what you saying?
Maybe for your type of usage, the on screen keyboard is good enough for you, but not for me and neither for the way Tim Cook positioned the iPad Pro as a possible desktop replacement.
Jobs also said "let's not invent another one" in reference to the stylus.
I don't have an issue with Apple making a stylus for the iPad, but many on here ridiculed Samsung, and Microsoft for including a stylus (that aren't required for the UI) with their tablets/smartphones using the very same quotes Jobs made about a stylus. Those same people are now gushing over the Pencil. That's called hypocrisy.
A stylus that is used for all operations on a tablet is quite different to a Pencil that is used only for handwriting and drawing applications. There is no hypocrisy in criticising the former and happily accepting the latter.
Nailed it.
Except the stylus for Samsung/Microsoft devices are not necessary for the operation of the tablet. My friend has a Note smartphone and never once used the stylus. It is included but it is optional.
There's a big difference. I haven't painted on canvas for a long time. But if you work in physical mediums, then this won't directly substitute, and no one is saying that it will.
But a lot of artists are digital, because their business is digital. In other words, their customers are those who publish through the digital medium, or who publish on paper, but whose product if made up digitally, and printed with halftone. Or they sell digital prints of their work.
For all of these, this is the way to go. Certainly, I can draw, or paint, a statue, but I can't sculpt one on the screen. Though, these days, I can draw something using a 3D app, and either have it carved from any medium I want, including stone, wood, and even metal, using a 3D carving machine, or cast from a mould made from my drawing, or have it 3D printed. So I suppose even a sculptor can use this do do their work, if they want to.
But, you see, art is about choices. Materials and techniques are up to the artist.
Thanks - that's kinda what I was after: to get the opinion of a painter; whether a painter would consider making the digital screen and iPencil their primary mode of expression when they're not getting paid for it. As I said initially, to me there's still this "disconnectedness" between the tool and the drawing surface. Seems sterile somehow. Sorry - I'm rambling.
I find interesting that the article mentions,
Still Apple went ahead with the current iPad Pro + Smart Keyboard implementation. Looks like MS did their homework a designed the Surface Pro keyboard with a touchpad, while Apple just ignored all the research they did on the issue.
Apple should make the iPad OS compatible with the magic keyboard and magic mouse.
It is a very different story from making a dedicated iPad keyboard and mouse. They're both bad trade-offs. Put together, they look like a clumsy Macbook. And seriously, I cannot see a goofy tablet laptop replacing a superior Macbook which Apple refined over the years.
What would you control with the trackpad? iOS has no cursor. It is completely impossible to remote-control iOS via pointing devices - that's the whole reason it exists.
What would you control with the trackpad? iOS has no cursor. It is completely impossible to remote-control iOS via pointing devices - that's the whole reason it exists.
It is for those who want to use their iPad in upright position, like a laptop.
Having said that. A big hurdle for my dad to use the laptop is the cursor and the keyboard. The touch interface is so much more intuitive to him. Adding a keyboard and pointing device would therefore clutter his iPad experience. So, I find Apple's sudden move to make the iPad look like a laptop somewhat strange. You're going to estrange a large demographic from the computer again.
It is for those who want to use their iPad in upright position, like a laptop.
Personally I do believe that an iPad should always be used flat with a smart cover. It offers the best affordance for touch. It obliterates the use of a mouse or trackpad. So, if the iPad is going to have a smart keyboard cover, then the iPad should lay flat and not stand upright.
It is for those who want to use their iPad in upright position, like a laptop.
That wasn't the question.
The question was what exactly a trackpad would control.
There is no pointer, no abstraction layer to the interface on iOS. You can only manipulate content directly. A trackpad or any other pointing device makes no sense whatsoever without a mouse pointer.
That wasn't the question.
The question was what exactly a trackpad would control.
There is no pointer, no abstraction layer to the interface on iOS. You can only manipulate content directly. A trackpad or any other pointing device makes no sense whatsoever without a mouse pointer.
Good point. The iPad Pro is not a Surface. It has its own iOS.
It is the upright position of the iPad that necessitates a pointing device to solve the gorilla arm issue. But, you're right, iOS is designed for touch. There is a conflict between the hardware that wants to be vertical and the touch interface that wants to be horizontal.
Personally I do believe that an iPad should always be used flat with a smart cover. It offers the best affordance for touch. It obliterates the use of a mouse or trackpad. So, if the iPad is going to have a smart keyboard cover, then the iPad should lay flat and not stand upright.
If you are going to integrate a keyboard, then the 'smart keyboard cover' should actually be a 'smartcase keyboard' where the keyboard flips into the case. This way the screen stays flat at an ergonomic angle, ideal for touch.
But again, I am not a big fan of adding a subpar soft keyboard. The smartcase keyboard is only a solution to obliterate the need of a soft trackpad. The iPad should always be used flat, unless you're watching netflix movies.