The stylus is a requirement for a Surface no matter what you say. Microsoft knows it's a requirement, or they wouldn't have included it. It's pretty simple. Just read the reviews, and you'll see for yourself. When I used the various Surface models over the past three years, it was easy to see that the stylus was needed. The first 10.5" Pros were a real joke. That screen was so small, even using the stylus it was easy to make errors.
The stylus is a requirement for drawing and note taking, since it gives you a better experience in those tasks. And the Surface team did the right thing to include it. Do I need the stylus to navigate thru the Netflix app or MS Office Mobile? No. Those and many other apps are designed for touch.
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What is so interesting is that other than for the aborted Win 8, Microsoft has made few concessions to stylus, or touch usage on the Surface tablets, or for OEM models. It's not that much better than in 2002, when Gat4s made the statement, commenting on the new Microsoft "Tablets", which we all called convertibles, that most people would be buying one of them as their computing device by 2005. He couldn't have been more wrong.
Those laptops had 13" to 15" screens, and everyone agreed (again, just go back and read the articles and reviews) that those screens were too small for a stylus equipped Windows.cso the only uses for for vertical markets, such as warehouses, and other purposes where software consisted of boxes to tap with the stylus, and a signed name at the bottom. For everything else, it was too difficult.
So now we have these Win 10 tablets with a 12.3" screen. But Microsoft added almost nothing to accommodate those smaller screens, except to lower the emulated resolution to about 1280 X 1024. They did that to get the features big enough so that you could tap them reliably with the stylus. Most are still too small for a finger. But, as you can see from the Ads, they expect you to buy the keyboard too.
That's just a fact of life with a Windows tablet. You can argue all you want. I just don't see how you've used those without understanding it.
For some reason, you mention devices that doesn't exist and were terrible to use. Some of my customers had the Compaq TC1100, and was really bad. But the SP3 / SP4 are completely different. They have touch screen for touch optimised apps, stylus for note taking and drawing, optional keyboards (as the iPad Pro) for a better typing experience, and a touchpad so you can use your applications designed for mouse. Like I said before, they input device you use is based in the app and workflow. And the Surface Pro has all your bases covered.
But if you want to use the stylus as a pointing device, even though it wasn't designed for that, be my guest.
The stylus is a requirement for drawing and note taking, since it gives you a better experience in those tasks. And the Surface team did the right thing to include it. Do I need the stylus to navigate thru the Netflix app or MS Office Mobile? No. Those and many other apps are designed for touch.
For some reason, you mention devices that doesn't exist and were terrible to use. Some of my customers had the Compaq TC1100, and was really bad. But the SP3 / SP4 are completely different. They have touch screen for touch optimised apps, stylus for note taking and drawing, optional keyboards (as the iPad Pro) for a better typing experience, and a touchpad so you can use your applications designed for mouse. Like I said before, they input device you use is based in the app and workflow. And the Surface Pro has all your bases covered.
But if you want to use the stylus as a pointing device, even though it wasn't designed for that, be my guest.
So, according to you, Windows is unusable without a stylus, because apps such as Photoshop and Illustrator require a stylus to use properly. That's really strange.
The proper way to look at this is whether most uses are made much easier with the stylus or not. On a Desktop, most uses are not only not easier with a stylus, but more difficult, as long as a keyboard and mouse is present. But for a Windows tablet, most things are easier with a stylus. With iOS, the opposite is true, it's easier with your finger most of the time. That a major difference.
I just think it's amusing that a few people who are really wedded to the Surface Pro insist that a stylus isn't required for ease of use, when Microsoft clearly disagrees, and reviewers disagree as well.
So, according to you, Windows is unusable without a stylus, because apps such as Photoshop and Illustrator require a stylus to use properly. That's really strange.
Maybe your are replying to another person, since I never said that. BTW, do you know that Adobe optimized Adobe CC for the Surface Pro?
The proper way to look at this is whether most uses are made much easier with the stylus or not. On a Desktop, most uses are not only not easier with a stylus, but more difficult,mad long as a keyboard and mouse is present. But for a Windows tablet, most things are easier with a stylus. With iOS, the opposite is true, it's easier with your finger most of the time. That a major difference.
That's the beauty of the Surface Pro, it adapts to your needs. Doesn't matter if the task it's easier with a stylus or mouse+keyboard, it support both. You want to do some handwriting, draw or annotate PDF documents, use the stylus. Do you need to navigate an application with mouse? Use the trackpad or mouse. And the best thing is that touch apps works with no need to navigate the UI with the Pen, like Netflix and MS Office Mobile.
Compare that to the iPad Pro experience, where it's no capable of external input devices. It means that if I need to do extensive typing, work in a spreadsheet or other kind of task, I have to reach the screen to navigate the UI. In the words of Steve Jobs, it is "ergonomically terrible". Here is what he said about touch screen notebooks,
"We've done tons of user testing on this, and it turns out it doesn't work. Touch surfaces don't want to be vertical. It gives great demo but after a short period of time, you start to fatigue and after an extended period of time, your arm wants to fall off. it doesn't work, it's ergonomically terrible. Touch surfaces want to be horizontal, hence pads."
And that's exactly the experience you have with the iPad Pro. For some reason Apple decide to ignore the "ton of tests" they did around 2010.
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I just think it's amusing that a few people who are really wedded to the Surface Pro insist that a stylus isn't required for ease of use, when Microsoft clearly disagrees, and reviewers disagree as well.
From what I have seen, Microsoft and reviewers mention that the Pen benefits apps like OneNote, Freshpaint, etc. Would be nice if you post a link where MS or reviewers mention that the Pen is for "ease of use" or for navigating the UI. I haven't seen it, and would like to read it.
There is a conflict between the hardware that wants to be vertical and the touch interface that wants to be horizontal.
I disagree that the hardware wants to be vertical. The iPad Pro no more needs to be vertical than a legal pad does.
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Originally Posted by DanVM
Compare that to the iPad Pro experience, where it's no capable of external input devices. It means that if I need to do extensive typing, work in a spreadsheet or other kind of task, I have to reach the screen to navigate the UI. In the words of Steve Jobs, it is "ergonomically terrible". Here is what he said about touch screen notebooks,
"We've done tons of user testing on this, and it turns out it doesn't work. Touch surfaces don't want to be vertical. It gives great demo but after a short period of time, you start to fatigue and after an extended period of time, your arm wants to fall off. it doesn't work, it's ergonomically terrible. Touch surfaces want to be horizontal, hence pads."
And that's exactly the experience you have with the iPad Pro. For some reason Apple decide to ignore the "ton of tests" they did around 2010.
a) This is why you have an on-screen keyboard when the iPad is laying flat on the desk, which is its default operational mode.
b) iPad has supported Bluetooth keyboards since the very first version.
c) I realize that the Keyboard Cover stands in blatant disregard of these ergonomics; you're absolutely correct there. As I try to make sense of this product: I believe they're offering it as a "pfft, whatever, Surface Pro" solution that people will buy because they think they need it. When I worked for an Apple reseller, I saw a lot of this — people switching who thought they'd need all sorts of stuff they couldn't imagine being without, that I'd talk them out of, or sell them alongside the computer to alleviate concerns of customers who might not have bought the Mac otherwise. (Like an external mouse for first-time MacBook customers.) It would take them a while to realise I was right, and that they really didn't use the product.
I believe this is why the original iPad Keyboard Dock existed (and was killed fairly quickly).
Maybe your are replying to another person, since I never said that. BTW, do you know that Adobe optimized Adobe CC for the Surface Pro?
http://blogs.adobe.com/creativecloud/creative-cloud-and-microsoft-surface-pro-3/
That's the beauty of the Surface Pro, it adapts to your needs. Doesn't matter if the task it's easier with a stylus or mouse+keyboard, it support both. You want to do some handwriting, draw or annotate PDF documents, use the stylus. Do you need to navigate an application with mouse? Use the trackpad or mouse. And the best thing is that touch apps works with no need to navigate the UI with the Pen, like Netflix and MS Office Mobile.
Compare that to the iPad Pro experience, where it's no capable of external input devices. It means that if I need to do extensive typing, work in a spreadsheet or other kind of task, I have to reach the screen to navigate the UI. In the words of Steve Jobs, it is "ergonomically terrible". Here is what he said about touch screen notebooks,
"We've done tons of user testing on this, and it turns out it doesn't work. Touch surfaces don't want to be vertical. It gives great demo but after a short period of time, you start to fatigue and after an extended period of time, your arm wants to fall off. it doesn't work, it's ergonomically terrible. Touch surfaces want to be horizontal, hence pads."
And that's exactly the experience you have with the iPad Pro. For some reason Apple decide to ignore the "ton of tests" they did around 2010.
From what I have seen, Microsoft and reviewers mention that the Pen benefits apps like OneNote, Freshpaint, etc. Would be nice if you post a link where MS or reviewers mention that the Pen is for "ease of use" or for navigating the UI. I haven't seen it, and would like to read it.
I know what they do, but it's trying to squeeze something into something else that it doesn't properly fit into. No matter what they do, the performance of PS on the Surface will be much poorer than a computer with more RAM and a graphics board. I expect that PS will do fairly well on the top model Surfacebook. But the lessor ones will have the same problem PS has on any laptop when compared to almost any Desktop with a graphics card and more RAM.
It just shows that you know nothing about the ipad Pro. Yes, as we know, there are keyboards. There is the Pencil, and mine arrived 5 minutes ago. There are many devices that plug into the iPad's connector, from electronics measuring equipment, medical equipment, infrared measuring equipment, etc. You can also plus drives into it for storage of files of most any kind, and, of course, there are all of the major online storage companies, such as BOX, Dropbox, iCloud, One Drive, etc. there are wired and wireless game controllers too. We have no problem printing either.
I know what they do, but it's trying to squeeze something into something else that it doesn't properly fit into. No matter what they do, the performance of PS on the Surface will be much poorer than a computer with more RAM and a graphics board. I expect that PS will do fairly well on the top model Surfacebook. But the lessor ones will have the same problem PS has on any laptop when compared to almost any Desktop with a graphics card and more RAM.
My point of my post was about usability, not performance. Still, a Surface Pro with Core i7 with Iris adapter would do good for many graphics tasks.
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It just shows that you know nothing about the ipad Pro. Yes, as we know, there are keyboards. There is the Pencil, and mine arrived 5 minutes ago. There are many devices that plug into the iPad's connector, from electronics measuring equipment, medical equipment, infrared measuring equipment, etc. You can also plus drives into it for storage of files of most any kind, and, of course, there are all of the major online storage companies, such as BOX, Dropbox, iCloud, One Drive, etc. there are wired and wireless game controllers too. We have no problem printing either.
Don't see what your post has to do with what I wrote.
I know what they do, but it's trying to squeeze something into something else that it doesn't properly fit into. No matter what they do, the performance of PS on the Surface will be much poorer than a computer with more RAM and a graphics board. I expect that PS will do fairly well on the top model Surfacebook. But the lessor ones will have the same problem PS has on any laptop when compared to almost any Desktop with a graphics card and more RAM.
It is my understanding that Photoshop hasn't required a "high end" computer since the Core 2 Duo days.
RAM is indeed an issue, but CPU-wise, an iPad Pro should be more than able to handle a full Photoshop, should they ever make it for iOS.
You can use the Surface Dock and connect up to two large screen monitors.
Right, a huge benefit mind you. Connecting an iPad Pro to an external monitor, just seriously sucks. Not only is the aspect ratio always off but the DPI is huge, almost comically so. iOS also only mirrors it's desktop and doesn't extend it, which is just a waste of another display. Also apps in iOS manage their own resolutions, so the experience is, well, weir, also extremely inconsistent. It's really designed more for apps like iTunes.
I don't know man. It's just seems such a mess. An iMac 5K starts at 1799$.
There are users that need a notebook and a desktop. And I think it's nice to have the mobile device that you can dock and use it as a full desktop. With that in mind, there are cases where a SP4 can replace a notebook, tablet and desktop. And it may results in lower costs than having 3 separate devices.
Comments
The stylus is a requirement for a Surface no matter what you say. Microsoft knows it's a requirement, or they wouldn't have included it. It's pretty simple. Just read the reviews, and you'll see for yourself. When I used the various Surface models over the past three years, it was easy to see that the stylus was needed. The first 10.5" Pros were a real joke. That screen was so small, even using the stylus it was easy to make errors.
The stylus is a requirement for drawing and note taking, since it gives you a better experience in those tasks. And the Surface team did the right thing to include it. Do I need the stylus to navigate thru the Netflix app or MS Office Mobile? No. Those and many other apps are designed for touch.
Those laptops had 13" to 15" screens, and everyone agreed (again, just go back and read the articles and reviews) that those screens were too small for a stylus equipped Windows.cso the only uses for for vertical markets, such as warehouses, and other purposes where software consisted of boxes to tap with the stylus, and a signed name at the bottom. For everything else, it was too difficult.
So now we have these Win 10 tablets with a 12.3" screen. But Microsoft added almost nothing to accommodate those smaller screens, except to lower the emulated resolution to about 1280 X 1024. They did that to get the features big enough so that you could tap them reliably with the stylus. Most are still too small for a finger. But, as you can see from the Ads, they expect you to buy the keyboard too.
That's just a fact of life with a Windows tablet. You can argue all you want. I just don't see how you've used those without understanding it.
For some reason, you mention devices that doesn't exist and were terrible to use. Some of my customers had the Compaq TC1100, and was really bad. But the SP3 / SP4 are completely different. They have touch screen for touch optimised apps, stylus for note taking and drawing, optional keyboards (as the iPad Pro) for a better typing experience, and a touchpad so you can use your applications designed for mouse. Like I said before, they input device you use is based in the app and workflow. And the Surface Pro has all your bases covered.
But if you want to use the stylus as a pointing device, even though it wasn't designed for that, be my guest.
So, according to you, Windows is unusable without a stylus, because apps such as Photoshop and Illustrator require a stylus to use properly. That's really strange.
The proper way to look at this is whether most uses are made much easier with the stylus or not. On a Desktop, most uses are not only not easier with a stylus, but more difficult, as long as a keyboard and mouse is present. But for a Windows tablet, most things are easier with a stylus. With iOS, the opposite is true, it's easier with your finger most of the time. That a major difference.
I just think it's amusing that a few people who are really wedded to the Surface Pro insist that a stylus isn't required for ease of use, when Microsoft clearly disagrees, and reviewers disagree as well.
So, according to you, Windows is unusable without a stylus, because apps such as Photoshop and Illustrator require a stylus to use properly. That's really strange.
Maybe your are replying to another person, since I never said that. BTW, do you know that Adobe optimized Adobe CC for the Surface Pro?
http://blogs.adobe.com/creativecloud/creative-cloud-and-microsoft-surface-pro-3/
Quote:
That's the beauty of the Surface Pro, it adapts to your needs. Doesn't matter if the task it's easier with a stylus or mouse+keyboard, it support both. You want to do some handwriting, draw or annotate PDF documents, use the stylus. Do you need to navigate an application with mouse? Use the trackpad or mouse. And the best thing is that touch apps works with no need to navigate the UI with the Pen, like Netflix and MS Office Mobile.
Compare that to the iPad Pro experience, where it's no capable of external input devices. It means that if I need to do extensive typing, work in a spreadsheet or other kind of task, I have to reach the screen to navigate the UI. In the words of Steve Jobs, it is "ergonomically terrible". Here is what he said about touch screen notebooks,
"We've done tons of user testing on this, and it turns out it doesn't work. Touch surfaces don't want to be vertical. It gives great demo but after a short period of time, you start to fatigue and after an extended period of time, your arm wants to fall off. it doesn't work, it's ergonomically terrible. Touch surfaces want to be horizontal, hence pads."
http://www.businessinsider.com/steve-jobs-touch-screen-mac-2010-10
And that's exactly the experience you have with the iPad Pro. For some reason Apple decide to ignore the "ton of tests" they did around 2010.
From what I have seen, Microsoft and reviewers mention that the Pen benefits apps like OneNote, Freshpaint, etc. Would be nice if you post a link where MS or reviewers mention that the Pen is for "ease of use" or for navigating the UI. I haven't seen it, and would like to read it.
There is a conflict between the hardware that wants to be vertical and the touch interface that wants to be horizontal.
I disagree that the hardware wants to be vertical. The iPad Pro no more needs to be vertical than a legal pad does.
Originally Posted by DanVM
Compare that to the iPad Pro experience, where it's no capable of external input devices. It means that if I need to do extensive typing, work in a spreadsheet or other kind of task, I have to reach the screen to navigate the UI. In the words of Steve Jobs, it is "ergonomically terrible". Here is what he said about touch screen notebooks,
"We've done tons of user testing on this, and it turns out it doesn't work. Touch surfaces don't want to be vertical. It gives great demo but after a short period of time, you start to fatigue and after an extended period of time, your arm wants to fall off. it doesn't work, it's ergonomically terrible. Touch surfaces want to be horizontal, hence pads."
http://www.businessinsider.com/steve-jobs-touch-screen-mac-2010-10
And that's exactly the experience you have with the iPad Pro. For some reason Apple decide to ignore the "ton of tests" they did around 2010.
a) This is why you have an on-screen keyboard when the iPad is laying flat on the desk, which is its default operational mode.
b) iPad has supported Bluetooth keyboards since the very first version.
c) I realize that the Keyboard Cover stands in blatant disregard of these ergonomics; you're absolutely correct there. As I try to make sense of this product: I believe they're offering it as a "pfft, whatever, Surface Pro" solution that people will buy because they think they need it. When I worked for an Apple reseller, I saw a lot of this — people switching who thought they'd need all sorts of stuff they couldn't imagine being without, that I'd talk them out of, or sell them alongside the computer to alleviate concerns of customers who might not have bought the Mac otherwise. (Like an external mouse for first-time MacBook customers.) It would take them a while to realise I was right, and that they really didn't use the product.
I believe this is why the original iPad Keyboard Dock existed (and was killed fairly quickly).
I disagree that the hardware wants to be vertical. The iPad Pro no more needs to be vertical than a legal pad does.
a) This is why you have an on-screen keyboard when the iPad is laying flat on the desk, which is its default operational mode.
My post was about a user who does extensive typing or work in spreadsheets. IMO, laying flat is not the most ergonomic way for that kind of work.
I know what they do, but it's trying to squeeze something into something else that it doesn't properly fit into. No matter what they do, the performance of PS on the Surface will be much poorer than a computer with more RAM and a graphics board. I expect that PS will do fairly well on the top model Surfacebook. But the lessor ones will have the same problem PS has on any laptop when compared to almost any Desktop with a graphics card and more RAM.
It just shows that you know nothing about the ipad Pro. Yes, as we know, there are keyboards. There is the Pencil, and mine arrived 5 minutes ago. There are many devices that plug into the iPad's connector, from electronics measuring equipment, medical equipment, infrared measuring equipment, etc. You can also plus drives into it for storage of files of most any kind, and, of course, there are all of the major online storage companies, such as BOX, Dropbox, iCloud, One Drive, etc. there are wired and wireless game controllers too. We have no problem printing either.
I know what they do, but it's trying to squeeze something into something else that it doesn't properly fit into. No matter what they do, the performance of PS on the Surface will be much poorer than a computer with more RAM and a graphics board. I expect that PS will do fairly well on the top model Surfacebook. But the lessor ones will have the same problem PS has on any laptop when compared to almost any Desktop with a graphics card and more RAM.
My point of my post was about usability, not performance. Still, a Surface Pro with Core i7 with Iris adapter would do good for many graphics tasks.
Don't see what your post has to do with what I wrote.
It is my understanding that Photoshop hasn't required a "high end" computer since the Core 2 Duo days.
RAM is indeed an issue, but CPU-wise, an iPad Pro should be more than able to handle a full Photoshop, should they ever make it for iOS.
A 13-inch screen capable of displaying 4K content, smarty pants.
And don't forget the marvelous UX of doing video and photo editing on a 13-inch screen vs a 27-inch monitor.
You can use the Surface Dock and connect up to two large screen monitors.
Right, a huge benefit mind you. Connecting an iPad Pro to an external monitor, just seriously sucks. Not only is the aspect ratio always off but the DPI is huge, almost comically so. iOS also only mirrors it's desktop and doesn't extend it, which is just a waste of another display. Also apps in iOS manage their own resolutions, so the experience is, well, weir, also extremely inconsistent. It's really designed more for apps like iTunes.
I don't know man. It's just seems such a mess. An iMac 5K starts at 1799$.
There are users that need a notebook and a desktop. And I think it's nice to have the mobile device that you can dock and use it as a full desktop. With that in mind, there are cases where a SP4 can replace a notebook, tablet and desktop. And it may results in lower costs than having 3 separate devices.