time for apple to pack up their car team and work on something else. the profitable side of this market is locked down for the foreseeable future.
Agree 100%
Telsa is already losing about $17k for each Model S they sell. And those cars cost $70-$130k each. Imagine how much Tesla is losing on the Model 3 which as 75% of the features the Model S has?
Telsa must be losing at least $10k on each Model 3 they will sell. Even with mass production there is no way that car cost less than $45k to design, build, and market.
Apple should stick to what they know. Their next big product should be a HomeHub. An all in one device for home entertainment, connectivity, home security, and home automation. That's a market that sucks right now. I want my lights/AC/locks/security cameras to all be automated. I want to save all my movies, pictures, videos, ect on a single device on a home network. Not on a cloud. I want 4k video and lossless audio and high end gaming. HomeHub.
I don't think it's a matter of if, but when Apple will unveil a car. I agree, home automation blows right now, however I can't see them getting anywhere near "high end" gaming. I think they could do both well it's just a matter of what they will do first. They do seem slightly further along in home automation than automotive at this point, but of course none of us can see what Apple has in the labs.
Telsa is already losing about $17k for each Model S they sell. And those cars cost $70-$130k each. Imagine how much Tesla is losing on the Model 3 which as 75% of the features the Model S has?
Telsa must be losing at least $10k on each Model 3 they will sell. Even with mass production there is no way that car cost less than $45k to design, build, and market.
How long can any company with the size of the current Tesla backlog lose this amount per vehicle and stay in Business? They can't. It is simple economics. If as you say, they will lose $10K per car the creditors will soon come calling and want their part of the business. Perhaps this is Musk's plan all along? I would not put down even $1.00 on something that may well never get built. Remember when Tesla goes belly up, the people who put up their $1000 are at the end of the line when it comes to getting their money back. Far too risky but I admire his balls. Perhaps he is the next Apple CEO? Seems to me to be right out of the SJ mould.
1. Very nice overall design 2. $35k is very reasonable. Especially with the additional $7-$10k in tax credits 3. 0-60 in less than 6 seconds is very good 4. 200+ mile range 5. Cool glass roof
Things I don't like:
1. Interior is too plain. Large touch screen looks tacky and bolted on 2. No speed gauge on the driver side. 3. Front nose of the car looks 'naked' and awkward
I think the interior is great. Super minimalistic...Jobs would of liked that. As for a lack of drivers side speedo, its likely that this car incorporates a HUD for that and other information. As for the plain (lack of a grill) front-end, well its electric! And everybody knows that now because of it. Electric and proud I say! Anyway put a number plate on that 'lip' and it doesn't look so bare anymore.
In 10 to 15 years cars like this are going to be commonplace and from many manufactures. They'll start to become a commodity item, just like most internal combustion engined cars are today. I don't think Tesla will survive that (Apple be warned) they'll just end up a footnote, yet I don't think Elon Musk will mind all that much. Safe in the knowledge that he started a revolution and has his place in automotive history.
Apples only plus is a huge pile of money. I think its Teslas last option to use Apples software; why give control to another company if your very successful developing software yourself. The worry should be the other way around.
Not at all. Take a good look at Apple's APIs and Development tools. The lack of SIRI alone makes TESLA's car interface archaic and dangerous. TESLA reminds me of the BeOS. Lots of potential but still has a long way to go.
I think the value of Siri as it currently is is very limited. I suspect Tesla is developing such an interface and can 'borrow' from android when needed. The point is that they do not have to relinquish control in this way and can use the valuable feedback of their customers to shape future software systems. I think E.Musk is very knowledgeable about software and has a good sense of direction. I wouldn't underestimate that. But yes I agree, they have a way to go before they can surpass Apple in certain aspects.
Nothing irrational about my opinion since I work in the automotive engineering field. If you saw a Tesla the way I do (as a series of assembled components and sub-assemblies) you'd realize there's NOTHING special or unique about them. People act like they created some incredible machine that nobody else in the world knows how to.
So all cars are the same because they consist of ... components? It also consists of the same type of molecules as other cars.
But contrary to your opinion, the fact is that some important components of the model 3 are unique, for example it's electric motor(s) and floor panel battery pack and glass roof panel all the way through and its full control computer system with over the air updates.
A common mistake is to think that because somewhere in time at some place a specific car had a specific feature and if you combine that you have all he features of the model 3 and hence it isn't unique and all done before. We heard that argument before, to prove that the (first) iPhone wasn't unique, and now we know that's also true because it consists of ... components.
And yes, I think Tesla created that incredible machine you and the rest of the automotive industry are so very afraid of. It's quite an achievement to not see the disruption (and revolution) in front of you, I guess it's because you choose to...
A large part of the cost at the entry level is the battery, which is estimated at $250/kWh just now. This would be $15k on an entry model. Tesla's Gigafactory is how Tesla plans to lower the price:
I question whether lithium battery technology is sustainable. Lithium is not very plentiful. Fuel cell with hydrogen may be a little more future proof. If you use geothermal power to extract hydrogen from sea water it could be economical.
Countries around the Pacific rim and even Iceland where you have volcanos near the ocean could become energy producing super powers which might help decrease dependence on fossil fuels.
There is no question that storing energy in a battery is more convenient and with fewer moving parts is cheaper and requires less maintenance but using lithium seems like short term solution. We will eventually need a new battery technology that is not dependent on an element that is so rare.
A side note about the perceived environmental benefits. Nearly 70% of electricity generated in the United States comes from fossil fuels, so you might feel better about yourself driving an electric car, but in reality it's just shifting the problem somewhere else.
Why is how come buying a hybrid is more environmentally friendly, until the percentage of power generated moves to > 50% renewable.
1. The tax credit is 7500 for the first 200k vehicles from each manufacturer then has a "ramp down" over multiple quarters that is not volume based.
2. Existing car manufacturers absolutely have a barrier to their entry in the EV space - their existing product / revenue and dealers who make most of their profit on service and maintenance.
3. The Model S has captured 25% of the luxury car segment in the US. It's the #1 selling luxury car.
4. The base Model 3 is $35k BEFORE any tax credits or rebates (some states also have additional over the federal credit). It will be cheaper than the Bolt, much better performing, and is not a Chevy. Tesla is an aspirational brand. Tesla owners are rabidly in love with the Tesla and its products. Sound familiar?
5. Elon Musk has said again and again that he started Tesla to kickstart the move to EVs. He wants the other manufacturers to join in.
Have you seen the cars driven by the vast consumers? They will buy the Bolt ten to one over this car. By the time this car is released the Bolt will be on its second revision and the rest of the global auto industry will have their EVs out.
Nothing irrational about my opinion since I work in the automotive engineering field. If you saw a Tesla the way I do (as a series of assembled components and sub-assemblies) you'd realize there's NOTHING special or unique about them. People act like they created some incredible machine that nobody else in the world knows how to.
So all cars are the same because they consist of ... components? It also consists of the same type of molecules as other cars.
But contrary to your opinion, the fact is that some important components of the model 3 are unique, for example it's electric motor(s) and floor panel battery pack and glass roof panel all the way through and its full control computer system with over the air updates.
A common mistake is to think that because somewhere in time at some place a specific car had a specific feature and if you combine that you have all he features of the model 3 and hence it isn't unique and all done before. We heard that argument before, to prove that the (first) iPhone wasn't unique, and now we know that's also true because it consists of ... components.
And yes, I think Tesla created that incredible machine you and the rest of the automotive industry are so very afraid of. It's quite an achievement to not see the disruption (and revolution) in front of you, I guess it's because you choose to...
Way to try and twist my words around. Please show me where I said all cars are the same. Oh wait, I didn't. What I did say is there's nothing special about the components in a Tesla.
You mentioned electric motors. Laughable. There's nothing special about the electric motors in a Tesla. That's like saying company A makes a 7.0L V8 engine and company B decided to make a smaller 4.0L V8 engine and suddenly they've innovated something entirely new. The principle of operation of the motors in a Tesla (or any other electric vehicle) were first described around 125 years ago. The design of these motors is fixed based on principles of physics and they HAVE to be built a certain way or else they would simply not work. Tesla motors are exactly the same as every other AC induction motor that's been in common use for around 100 years now. Don't buy their fancy marketing BS - all they did is make a motor of a specific size/capacity to meet their goals.
To further expand on this, AC induction motors have for several decades now been driven by VFD's (variable frequency drives) which can output a variable frequency AC voltage to allow for control of the speed and output of these motors (which will run at a fixed speed when connected to something like your AC outlet at home). These are so common that all the major semiconductor manufacturers make microcontrollers that perform all the functions needed to make a VFD on a single chip you can buy for a couple dollars. And since you need to handle large amounts of current they also happen to make the necessary output drivers (transistors) which are simply put together in groups depending on how much power your motor consumes.
So, sorry to say, nothing in the Tesla drivetrain is unique, special or new.
I and automakers are afraid of Tesla? It's Tesla that should be afraid of GM and all the other automotive companies since they can make an electric car tomorrow. All it requires is a decision to make one and has nothing to do with technology or capability. And since companies are driven by responsibility to their shareholders, they're limited as to when they can go ahead (which is right around now as battery technology - which Tesla didn't invent either - is finally getting to a cost/capacity range to make electric cars feasible). And as batteries get better and better automakers will dive in and leave Tesla behind, since they don't really have any technology advantage over anyone else.
This is a all electric car. It's not going to look like a gas car everyone is used to. There's no need for a front grill because there is not radiator to cool a gas engine. That means you really need no temp gauge, or RPM gauge, etc. So there really is no need for the typical dashboard of a gas car! I like the large single screen of this car though the way it sticks out, will it make it a target for theifs?
In a couple years these will end up on the used car market as people buy new versions and so more people will be able to afford them as they get down to $20 thousand and less. My brother just got a used all electric Ford Focus for $10 thousand. He really likes it. The range is short at around 60 miles but more then enough for his commute. It replaced the Volvo he has that wasn't all that old and falling apart!!!
Now there is no gas stations he has to go to. There's no oil changes. There's no engine belt you have to replace every 60,000 miles or whatever. Electric cars are the future.
I hope you realize Electric Motors generate a lot of heat out. In short, it needs to vent that heat like a thermocycle just in a different approach.
Have you seen the cars driven by the vast consumers? They will buy the Bolt ten to one over this car. By the time this car is released the Bolt will be on its second revision and the rest of the global auto industry will have their EVs out.
So all cars are the same because they consist of ... components? It also consists of the same type of molecules as other cars.
But contrary to your opinion, the fact is that some important components of the model 3 are unique, for example it's electric motor(s) and floor panel battery pack and glass roof panel all the way through and its full control computer system with over the air updates.
A common mistake is to think that because somewhere in time at some place a specific car had a specific feature and if you combine that you have all he features of the model 3 and hence it isn't unique and all done before. We heard that argument before, to prove that the (first) iPhone wasn't unique, and now we know that's also true because it consists of ... components.
And yes, I think Tesla created that incredible machine you and the rest of the automotive industry are so very afraid of. It's quite an achievement to not see the disruption (and revolution) in front of you, I guess it's because you choose to...
Way to try and twist my words around. Please show me where I said all cars are the same. Oh wait, I didn't. What I did say is there's nothing special about the components in a Tesla.
You mentioned electric motors. Laughable. There's nothing special about the electric motors in a Tesla. That's like saying company A makes a 7.0L V8 engine and company B decided to make a smaller 4.0L V8 engine and suddenly they've innovated something entirely new. The principle of operation of the motors in a Tesla (or any other electric vehicle) were first described around 125 years ago. The design of these motors is fixed based on principles of physics and they HAVE to be built a certain way or else they would simply not work. Tesla motors are exactly the same as every other AC induction motor that's been in common use for around 100 years now. Don't buy their fancy marketing BS - all they did is make a motor of a specific size/capacity to meet their goals.
To further expand on this, AC induction motors have for several decades now been driven by VFD's (variable frequency drives) which can output a variable frequency AC voltage to allow for control of the speed and output of these motors (which will run at a fixed speed when connected to something like your AC outlet at home). These are so common that all the major semiconductor manufacturers make microcontrollers that perform all the functions needed to make a VFD on a single chip you can buy for a couple dollars. And since you need to handle large amounts of current they also happen to make the necessary output drivers (transistors) which are simply put together in groups depending on how much power your motor consumes.
So, sorry to say, nothing in the Tesla drivetrain is unique, special or new.
I and automakers are afraid of Tesla? It's Tesla that should be afraid of GM and all the other automotive companies since they can make an electric car tomorrow. All it requires is a decision to make one and has nothing to do with technology or capability. And since companies are driven by responsibility to their shareholders, they're limited as to when they can go ahead (which is right around now as battery technology - which Tesla didn't invent either - is finally getting to a cost/capacity range to make electric cars feasible). And as batteries get better and better automakers will dive in and leave Tesla behind, since they don't really have any technology advantage over anyone else.
Wordplay, but nothing special or unique (your words) implies the same (regarding important aspects), so yes you did say that. Anyway, electric motors are special and unique simply because almost no car has such a drivetrain. The same goes for the other things I mentioned; I might add that power electronics (in conjunction with the electric motors) is certainly unique (and special) too.
Your right that other car makers will enter the electric party when Tesla proves succesful, but by then it will be to late. Funny actually because Mr Musk explains every step of the way (he even likes competition); it seems you have to really believe in something and focus and not doing it for the money or shareholders to get revolutionary stuff going. Kudos for Mr Musk and company!
This is a all electric car. It's not going to look like a gas car everyone is used to. There's no need for a front grill because there is not radiator to cool a gas engine. That means you really need no temp gauge, or RPM gauge, etc. So there really is no need for the typical dashboard of a gas car! I like the large single screen of this car though the way it sticks out, will it make it a target for theifs?
In a couple years these will end up on the used car market as people buy new versions and so more people will be able to afford them as they get down to $20 thousand and less. My brother just got a used all electric Ford Focus for $10 thousand. He really likes it. The range is short at around 60 miles but more then enough for his commute. It replaced the Volvo he has that wasn't all that old and falling apart!!!
Now there is no gas stations he has to go to. There's no oil changes. There's no engine belt you have to replace every 60,000 miles or whatever. Electric cars are the future.
I hope you realize Electric Motors generate a lot of heat out. In short, it needs to vent that heat like a thermocycle just in a different approach.
Eh, no. 98, 99% efficiency and 20% for electric cars and combustion cars resp., what do you think? jbdragon is completely right, no cooling system to break down or spark plugs to renew or exhaust pipe or catalyst unit to replace (expensive!) or even brakes (because most of the breaking is done by regenerating, wow!) or axels and gear units to revision or repair and the list goes on. Combustion engines are one oil dripping hell filled with exhaust fumes, they need to be replaces as soon as possible. Another huge difference is the cost of 'fuel', that's one fifth for an electric car; on avarage car owners spend as much money on fuel as the value of the car (at least in government tax paradise Europe) that's in this case $35000, so when driving electric you save $29000, and that's something to think about!
Edit: not to mention the $6000 or more you spend on repair costs that now is slashed to almost zero: this amounts to $35000 or more you save during the lifetime of your electrical car ...
I would not put down even $1.00 on something that may well never get built. Remember when Tesla goes belly up, the people who put up their $1000 are at the end of the line when it comes to getting their money back.
No different from having an account at any bank in the Western world. Your account balance is owned by the bank in question and will be used as the first line of defense to bail the bank in when it fails.
No different from having an account at any bank in the Western world. Your account balance is owned by the bank in question and will be used as the first line of defense to bail the bank in when it fails.
There is the FDIC. Do you think the US government is going to fail along with the bank? If so, you can bury precious metals in your back yard. A little inconvenient, but at least you'll be prepared if Trump gets elected and starts WW III.
Maybe you missed the part where the bank controls US currency and the government has absolutely no power whatsoever, much less any actual protection. Or maybe you missed the laws that have been passed since 2008 that explicitly say “all funds from accounts will be used as funds to bail out any given bank if it fails”. There is literally no protection. (wish we had the angry emoticon still... or could just use unicode characters. “purple devil” doesn’t really cut it)
Do you think the US government is going to fail along with the bank?
It has to, by definition, yes.
If so, you can bury precious metals in your back yard.
Basement’s easier to deal with.
...if Trump gets elected and starts WW III.
LOL TRUMP WILL START A WAR MEME! Plus one! “Like”!
Comments
They can't. It is simple economics. If as you say, they will lose $10K per car the creditors will soon come calling and want their part of the business.
Perhaps this is Musk's plan all along?
I would not put down even $1.00 on something that may well never get built. Remember when Tesla goes belly up, the people who put up their $1000 are at the end of the line when it comes to getting their money back.
Far too risky but I admire his balls.
Perhaps he is the next Apple CEO? Seems to me to be right out of the SJ mould.
I suspect Tesla is developing such an interface and can 'borrow' from android when needed.
The point is that they do not have to relinquish control in this way and can use the valuable feedback of their customers to shape future software systems.
I think E.Musk is very knowledgeable about software and has a good sense of direction.
I wouldn't underestimate that.
But yes I agree, they have a way to go before they can surpass Apple in certain aspects.
So all cars are the same because they consist of ... components?
It also consists of the same type of molecules as other cars.
But contrary to your opinion, the fact is that some important components of the model 3 are unique, for example it's electric motor(s) and floor panel battery pack and glass roof panel all the way through and its full control computer system with over the air updates.
A common mistake is to think that because somewhere in time at some place a specific car had a specific feature and if you combine that you have all he features of the model 3 and hence it isn't unique and all done before. We heard that argument before, to prove that the (first) iPhone wasn't unique, and now we know that's also true because it consists of ... components.
And yes, I think Tesla created that incredible machine you and the rest of the automotive industry are so very afraid of. It's quite an achievement to not see the disruption (and revolution) in front of you, I guess it's because you choose to...
Countries around the Pacific rim and even Iceland where you have volcanos near the ocean could become energy producing super powers which might help decrease dependence on fossil fuels.
There is no question that storing energy in a battery is more convenient and with fewer moving parts is cheaper and requires less maintenance but using lithium seems like short term solution. We will eventually need a new battery technology that is not dependent on an element that is so rare.
Way to try and twist my words around. Please show me where I said all cars are the same. Oh wait, I didn't. What I did say is there's nothing special about the components in a Tesla.
You mentioned electric motors. Laughable. There's nothing special about the electric motors in a Tesla. That's like saying company A makes a 7.0L V8 engine and company B decided to make a smaller 4.0L V8 engine and suddenly they've innovated something entirely new. The principle of operation of the motors in a Tesla (or any other electric vehicle) were first described around 125 years ago. The design of these motors is fixed based on principles of physics and they HAVE to be built a certain way or else they would simply not work. Tesla motors are exactly the same as every other AC induction motor that's been in common use for around 100 years now. Don't buy their fancy marketing BS - all they did is make a motor of a specific size/capacity to meet their goals.
To further expand on this, AC induction motors have for several decades now been driven by VFD's (variable frequency drives) which can output a variable frequency AC voltage to allow for control of the speed and output of these motors (which will run at a fixed speed when connected to something like your AC outlet at home). These are so common that all the major semiconductor manufacturers make microcontrollers that perform all the functions needed to make a VFD on a single chip you can buy for a couple dollars. And since you need to handle large amounts of current they also happen to make the necessary output drivers (transistors) which are simply put together in groups depending on how much power your motor consumes.
So, sorry to say, nothing in the Tesla drivetrain is unique, special or new.
I and automakers are afraid of Tesla? It's Tesla that should be afraid of GM and all the other automotive companies since they can make an electric car tomorrow. All it requires is a decision to make one and has nothing to do with technology or capability. And since companies are driven by responsibility to their shareholders, they're limited as to when they can go ahead (which is right around now as battery technology - which Tesla didn't invent either - is finally getting to a cost/capacity range to make electric cars feasible). And as batteries get better and better automakers will dive in and leave Tesla behind, since they don't really have any technology advantage over anyone else.
I hope you realize Electric Motors generate a lot of heat out. In short, it needs to vent that heat like a thermocycle just in a different approach.
Wordplay, but nothing special or unique (your words) implies the same (regarding important aspects), so yes you did say that.
Anyway, electric motors are special and unique simply because almost no car has such a drivetrain.
The same goes for the other things I mentioned; I might add that power electronics (in conjunction with the electric motors) is certainly unique (and special) too.
Your right that other car makers will enter the electric party when Tesla proves succesful, but by then it will be to late. Funny actually because Mr Musk explains every step of the way (he even likes competition); it seems you have to really believe in something and focus and not doing it for the money or shareholders to get revolutionary stuff going.
Kudos for Mr Musk and company!
jbdragon is completely right, no cooling system to break down or spark plugs to renew or exhaust pipe or catalyst unit to replace (expensive!) or even brakes (because most of the breaking is done by regenerating, wow!) or axels and gear units to revision or repair and the list goes on.
Combustion engines are one oil dripping hell filled with exhaust fumes, they need to be replaces as soon as possible.
Another huge difference is the cost of 'fuel', that's one fifth for an electric car; on avarage car owners spend as much money on fuel as the value of the car (at least in government tax paradise Europe) that's in this case $35000, so when driving electric you save $29000, and that's something to think about!
Edit: not to mention the $6000 or more you spend on repair costs that now is slashed to almost zero: this amounts to $35000 or more you save during the lifetime of your electrical car ...
It has to, by definition, yes.
Basement’s easier to deal with.
LOL TRUMP WILL START A WAR MEME! Plus one! “Like”!