you know you should consider patenting your incredible diagnostic technique. instead of having to pay for a proper psychological examination, people can just talk to you and listen in awe as you flawlessly diagnose them with a wide array of mental illnesses based on nothing but their comments and views. then you could sue any small child who ends an argument will 'well you're just retarded' and make an arse-load of cash
Still waiting for you to have a refutation of anything presented.
No force of will, no power of man, and no act of a God will ever make you anything other than what your genes say you are.
second time you've used that phrase. interestingly though, I never argued that fact. nowhere in my genes does it ever say I have a particular gender. all they say is 'hey foetus, grow these sex organs'. it was the doctors who said 'hey, this baby is a particular gender!' and everyone just sort of went 'yup'
AND, the idiotic Governor will do NOTHING .... This is a classic case of actions speak louder than words. Only two things create change in this life, money amd pain. Unless these 68 companies are willing to do whatever it takes to suck money out of this cesspool, and create pain more intense than this weeneie is willing to tolerate, NOTHING will budge... You move cookies...
Detroit. Now have a goddamn argument.
If you wanted to tell us you have no idea what you're talking about, you could have just said, "I have no idea what I'm talking about."
Ok, name me one other country in the world that passed a law about going to the toilet. A law that will never be enforceable. Or will you have police men checking ID's at toilets?
Second, no single report on this has ever been reported before. It's republicans seeking "solutions" to a problem that doesn't exist to push their conservative agenda. If republicans really intended this to help and support a minority, they would have had a discussion with that community and realised they were making things a whole lot worse for them by stigmatising them and drawing attention to them.
Third, you do realise that the law intended to prevent men going into women restrooms will exactly cause that? A transgender man (looks and acts like a man) will now have to go into the woman restroom. Causing distress. Why? It's so stupid and retarded, only intended to be anti-LGBT. I'm glad that if government fails like they did now, there are US companies stepping up. That's the only positive thing that has come out of this shameful ordeal.
Ok, name me one other country in the world that passed a law about going to the toilet.
Quite a few, both for and against.
Second, no single report on this has ever been reported before.
Eh, I doubt that.
Hey, look, the first result in Google (yes, I had to use Google because Bing is so fucking terrible it can’t even search Microsoft’s own help database, much less do a time-based query) when you kick the time back to before the passage of the law. And this site seems to be aggregating every single one it can find, regardless of timing.
So of course it has happened before and it has happened for decades.
If republicans really intended this to help and support a minority...
They’d expand mental healthcare.
...they were making things a whole lot worse for them by stigmatizing them and drawing attention to them.
Maybe don’t do wrong instead? Then there wouldn’t be stigma. And having attention drawn to them is the entire point of the modern obsession with their mental illness, so isn’t that the opposite of what they want?
Third, you do realise that the law intended to prevent men going into women restrooms will exactly cause that?
Just like the law against murder is the cause of murder.
A transgender man (looks and acts like a man) will now have to go into the woman restroom. Causing distress. Why?
Because mental illness elicits a subconscious reaction in people’s minds as a defense mechanism to preserve the safety and security of the social in-group. You see the same thing with people who interact with sociopaths and sufferers of NPD. Oh, they can fake it, usually, but people are shown to be subconsciously put on edge around them. It’s the brain telling you “There’s something wrong here, and I can’t quite put my lobe on it, but be careful around this person.”
So, what are you talking about?
Maybe know that before entering into a discussion? Just a suggestion.
So of course it has happened before and it has happened for decades.
So you give examples of perverts that are not related to the transgender community to defend your point? Are you really that naive to think that a non-enforceable law will prevent perverts from peeping? Perverts and criminals do what they do, regardless of any laws. Therefore, law enforcement should focus on keeping those perverts out of the streets and in jail.
But zooming in on just transgenders is just plain wrong as it won't prevent the examples you refer to because it has NOTHING to do with it.
Maybe don’t do wrong instead? Then there wouldn’t be stigma
What are you talking about? Do you even know what transgender means?
Because mental illness elicits a subconscious reaction in people’s minds as a defense mechanism to preserve the safety and security of the social in-group. You see the same thing with people who interact with sociopaths and sufferers of NPD. Oh, they can fake it, usually, but people are shown to be subconsciously put on edge around them. It’s the brain telling you “There’s something wrong here, and I can’t quite put my lobe on it, but be careful around this person.”
Why do you drag sociopaths and NPD into this discussion? One has nothing to do with the other.
Transgender people don't cause harm to other people, there is no crime committed, you don't have to be careful around them. So there shouldn't be an in-group. It's not us versus them. And the whole point of modern society is not to listen to that subconscious reaction (or worse, act on it) because it's a result of ignorance. If society deems something normal, that subconscious reaction will soon fade. The same as it does with race, colour, sexual orientation, disabilities, and everything else that makes us unique. It takes all kinds to create a world.
Just like the law against murder is the cause of murder.
With the big difference NO crime has been committed. Being a transgender is not a crime. Being a pervert and peeping in restrooms is.
You're missing the point that a post-operation transgender, who completely switched gender, will now have to go back to the restrooms of their old gender, they and society do NOT identify with. Why would prefer a transgender man in the women's bathroom? It's just absurd.
That bill is wrong because it divides instead of unites. Good for Apple and 67 other companies on realising that.
So of course it has happened before and it has happened for decades.
So you give examples of perverts that are not related to the transgender community to defend your point? Are you really that naive to think that a non-enforceable law will prevent perverts from peeping? Perverts and criminals do what they do, regardless of any laws. Therefore, law enforcement should focus on keeping those perverts out of the streets and in jail.
But zooming in on just transgenders is just plain wrong as it won't prevent the examples you refer to because it has NOTHING to do with it.
What are you talking about? Do you even know what transgender means?
Why do you drag sociopaths and NPD into this discussion? One has nothing to do with the other.
Transgender people don't cause harm to other people, there is no crime committed, you don't have to be careful around them. So there shouldn't be an in-group. It's not us versus them. And the whole point of modern society is not to listen to that subconscious reaction (or worse, act on it) because it's a result of ignorance. If society deems something normal, that subconscious reaction will soon fade. The same as it does with race, colour, sexual orientation, disabilities, and everything else that makes us unique. It takes all kinds to create a world.
With the big difference NO crime has been committed. Being a transgender is not a crime. Being a pervert and peeping in restrooms is.
You're missing the point that a post-operation transgender, who completely switched gender, will now have to go back to the restrooms of their old gender, they and society do NOT identify with. Why would prefer a transgender man in the women's bathroom? It's just absurd.
That bill is wrong because it divides instead of unites. Good for Apple and 67 other companies on realising that.
come on, Crowley. at least let tallest skil share some more of their views. I'd prefer to ridicule them rather than just bully them
I don't think for a second that he'll stop; he's been making of fool of himself on these boards for years now, and bullying is his MO, not mine, I'm simply bored of his bile and not willing to give his juvenile, repetitive RAH RAH (insult strewn "argument" about treason and mental illness) WAH WAH (playing the victim whining about libel) the time of day.
Engaging him on any level that gives any credence or legitimacy to his (probably fake, certainly plagiarized) views just encourages him to do more grandstanding in his desperate need for attention.
Ignore or belittle, I swing between the two. And I genuinely doubt that he's spoken to anyone that he isn't related to for a while.
Tallest believes all LGBT are mentally ill and need treatment nothing will dissuade him from that point. Also he apparently believes we are a total slave to our genes. A total nature not nurture advocate. So better stop that research into gene therapy. It's apparently impossible!
This viewpoint is something many people disagree with and unfortunately many agree with.
I’d prefer a transgender man getting the treatment he needs.
As we all do. And the current scientific and medical point of view is that the best "cure" or "workaround" is, in well defined cases, to get their sex changed. Deal with it.
No force of will, no power of man, and no act of a god will ever make you anything than what your genes dictate.
If that's what you believe, it's the best argument you will ever have to accept the LGBT community. Put it on a sticker and do some good in the world.
Transgender people don't cause harm to other people [citation needed]
Wow, just wow.
There is if there’s a law against a given action.
You confuse two distinct groups: perverts and transgenders. As long as you will keep doing that, there's no point in continuing this discussion.
If some people feel uneasy around transgenders that's the problem of those people. Not of the transgender. Fifty years ago, some people felt uneasy sitting next to someone of another color in the bus. Times change and you can drag your feet about it but don't hold the rest of society back while we want to continue forward.
I'm glad these 68 companies are setting an example.
Yes, indeed why. Having an open public area with no doors (like many places are right now, maybe even put cameras in that place), for washing hands, whatever, with stalls for everyone (maybe self-cleaning) would solve every issue in large areas. Everywhere else, have single stalls bathrooms (which is already the case in many new buildings, this also accommodates people with disabilities better).
Protecting "da women" "da children" (sic) is often used as a justification for all kind of boneheaded or bigoted laws, including segregation laws.
are we now having a conversation about rebuilding all existing bathrooms? Because that's not what I was talking about. I was very clear that the problem is one of determining how to allocate a large spectrum of gender identities within two existing restroom options. That's an issue that needs to be resolved, even if new builds take a different approach.
And I deliberately worded my reference to males being less likely to be in danger or offended in a manner to avoid exactly the hyperbole you went directly to. This just shows you have an agenda and aren't considering what others are actually writing here. You don't seem to want to actually have a reasonable discussion that could lead to a workable solution.
You're framing the issue yourself by your own words in almost every sentence, so please spare me the "above the fray" appeal.
Want to keep score on who's using the most "framing" devices and logical fallacies? I can put up the wiki pages for those things and we can go through the response and argue those points? It's pointless but surely one will come on top and we'll all feel "better" about that...
BTW, I'm a bi women, been around trans men, women in the hundreds through volunteer work since the 1980s (also volunteered during the height of the AIDS Crisis around gay men). So, I'm EXTREMELY well versed on this subject.
I've heard all of the myriads arguments on this and the appeal to "protecting" (sic) children, women and don't want to hear a word about it.
There is no stats on this needing to be addressed, just like there is no stats on significant voting fraud. Trans men and women (and queer men and women) use bathroom appropriate to their assumed gender all the time with no issue at all. These are dog whistle laws, not meant to solve any real problem, but meant to appeal to the GOP's base's bias and prejudices (this law and the voting "rights" (sic) laws) Often used as a distraction while the GOP base is kicking their own base on economic issues.
Trans men & women being called sick, pedophiles, perverts, being harassed, rocks thrown at them, apartments defaced, facing death-treats, so many suicides, so many disowned, thrown out of their apartments, sleeping on the street, can't get jobs, keeps jobs, etc.
It's just too much bullshit that I've been dealing with in helping the community for 30 years
This irrational "fear" based on nothing at all. must not be accommodated just like the fear of blacks, mexicans, gays, or whatever bogeyman must not be accommodated.
And yes, I don't give a shit about those irrational fears; people will get over them and move on.
So now I understand where your seeing everything I write with a bias. I'm approaching this as a logical problem, from a scientific point of view. I have zero bias on this topic. Zero. If it were up to me, I'd deal with this very specific issue as its dealt with in countries I've visited, like the Philippines. There, despite there being the same prejudices against the LGBT community, on top of widespread poverty, on this specific issue, it's live and let live. Nobody cares or minds which bathroom anyone uses. When I try to have a conversation about how to think about the issue, you seem to immediately assume I'm for NC's law. I could give a rats ass about NC, or politics in general. I deal in logic and facts. But you seem unwilling to have the conversation on that level. You're too wrapped up in the greater issues, understandably. But don't cast me with the others you see as hateful, because I simply don't have that in my nature.
Yay big government, down with states rights, right?
States' rights has been a mostly dead issue since the 14th Amendment. There's still a few things left that the Constitution doesn't address, like dealing with intra-State commerce, but for the most part, the States must now also abide by U.S. Constitutional restrictions.
In the main, that's a good thing, as States no longer have the "right" to, for instance, infringe your free speech rights, but it does give the Feds an opportunity for overreach in some things.
NC should have left whatever was original law alone and offer to add 3rd kind bathroom in new constructions or if extra bathroom is available in existing facility than convert one for transgender people. So, provide male, female and trans type bathrooms.
You know, I've actually come around on a lot of issues, and I do support gay marriage and other lgbt rights, but I don't know about this whole bathroom business.
I mean, what's to stop some pervert from just declaring that they're transgender all of a sudden, and then the pervert can just go on a city-wide tour of women's restrooms, and changing rooms and other places that are only for females?
What do females have to say about this? They're the ones that will have to be subjected to the intruder in their bathroom.
Would a parent want their underaged daughter to be using the same restrooms that a big hairy male uses?
I'm just saying.
I think it unlikely that perverts will dress up as the other sex to get access to bathrooms. They can do that anytime anyway. Also, I have never heard of a fake transgender person committing a rape, or another obscene act in a bathroom, though it probably has happened at some point, somewhere or other. I have two teenage girls and The prospect of a trans woman using the washroom does not worry me in the slightest. If I had a son that was transgender and he was forced to use men's bathrooms however, I would fear for his life. I really believe that people need to learn a little about what it means to be transgender before passing judgement. If I go to the bathroom and some guy goes and uses a stall to take a leak, I couldn't care less. If that guy has female gentalia it really is none of my business. If a woman stood next to me and hitched up her skirt I'd cast a sideways look, for sure, but I'd probably wonder why she didn't use the ladies'.
One reason perhaps for not hearing about it is it hasn't been pushed as a "law" until recently. With these new "rights", the perverts don't need to dress up. What's next, outlawing urinals?
you know you should consider patenting your incredible diagnostic technique. instead of having to pay for a proper psychological examination, people can just talk to you and listen in awe as you flawlessly diagnose them with a wide array of mental illnesses based on nothing but their comments and views. then you could sue any small child who ends an argument will 'well you're just retarded' and make an arse-load of cash
Still waiting for you to have a refutation of anything presented.
No force of will, no power of man, and no act of a God will ever make you anything other than what your genes say you are.
First, you do know you're making a reference to an imaginary being (this God thing you mention)? That pretty much tells any educated person where your arguments are coming from. And it's not a viable place.
Second, you do know that, like your gods and fiat currency, gender identity is an imagined construct. Humans define these constructs and only humans adhere to them. No bear will agree to not maul you regardless of what number you offer to write on a bank check in his name. And your genes aren't the final word on your ultimate gender identity. Hell, in nature, genes aren't always even the final word in reproductive role. Just ask any of the species of fish who swap gender, and successfully mate as their new gender. In this case, the environment (a lack of males in the population, for example) is more deterministic of the fish's ultimate gender. You can speak of X and Y chromosomes all you like, but we're not talking about that in this conversation, and I suspect you know that. We're not speaking of reproductive ability, we're talking about gender IDENTITY, aren't we? And which bathroom to use.
What?? Please take a second to think about the logistics of what you just wrote. If someone has female genitalia, they are a female, and vice versa for male. This whole issue is a mental illness issue. And before you label me a bigot and hateful and whatever else, look up Gender Identity Disorder and Gender Dysphoria. They are medically recognized mental disorders that they are trying to find a cure for.
I am all for people getting help, but getting the right kind of help is the only real solution. Chopping something off or putting something there that isn't doesn't make the real problem go away.
Is that medical expertise or is that some bullshit coming out of your fucking mouth.
Comments
second time you've used that phrase. interestingly though, I never argued that fact. nowhere in my genes does it ever say I have a particular gender. all they say is 'hey foetus, grow these sex organs'. it was the doctors who said 'hey, this baby is a particular gender!' and everyone just sort of went 'yup'
Also, open a dictionary.
Ok, name me one other country in the world that passed a law about going to the toilet. A law that will never be enforceable. Or will you have police men checking ID's at toilets?
Second, no single report on this has ever been reported before. It's republicans seeking "solutions" to a problem that doesn't exist to push their conservative agenda. If republicans really intended this to help and support a minority, they would have had a discussion with that community and realised they were making things a whole lot worse for them by stigmatising them and drawing attention to them.
Third, you do realise that the law intended to prevent men going into women restrooms will exactly cause that? A transgender man (looks and acts like a man) will now have to go into the woman restroom. Causing distress. Why? It's so stupid and retarded, only intended to be anti-LGBT. I'm glad that if government fails like they did now, there are US companies stepping up. That's the only positive thing that has come out of this shameful ordeal.
So, what are you talking about?
Eh, I doubt that.
Hey, look, the first result in Google (yes, I had to use Google because Bing is so fucking terrible it can’t even search Microsoft’s own help database, much less do a time-based query) when you kick the time back to before the passage of the law. And this site seems to be aggregating every single one it can find, regardless of timing.
So of course it has happened before and it has happened for decades.
They’d expand mental healthcare.
Maybe don’t do wrong instead? Then there wouldn’t be stigma. And having attention drawn to them is the entire point of the modern obsession with their mental illness, so isn’t that the opposite of what they want?
Just like the law against murder is the cause of murder.
Because mental illness elicits a subconscious reaction in people’s minds as a defense mechanism to preserve the safety and security of the social in-group. You see the same thing with people who interact with sociopaths and sufferers of NPD. Oh, they can fake it, usually, but people are shown to be subconsciously put on edge around them. It’s the brain telling you “There’s something wrong here, and I can’t quite put my lobe on it, but be careful around this person.”
Maybe know that before entering into a discussion? Just a suggestion.
So you give examples of perverts that are not related to the transgender community to defend your point? Are you really that naive to think that a non-enforceable law will prevent perverts from peeping? Perverts and criminals do what they do, regardless of any laws. Therefore, law enforcement should focus on keeping those perverts out of the streets and in jail.
But zooming in on just transgenders is just plain wrong as it won't prevent the examples you refer to because it has NOTHING to do with it.
What are you talking about? Do you even know what transgender means?
Why do you drag sociopaths and NPD into this discussion? One has nothing to do with the other.
Transgender people don't cause harm to other people, there is no crime committed, you don't have to be careful around them. So there shouldn't be an in-group. It's not us versus them. And the whole point of modern society is not to listen to that subconscious reaction (or worse, act on it) because it's a result of ignorance. If society deems something normal, that subconscious reaction will soon fade. The same as it does with race, colour, sexual orientation, disabilities, and everything else that makes us unique. It takes all kinds to create a world.
With the big difference NO crime has been committed. Being a transgender is not a crime. Being a pervert and peeping in restrooms is.
You're missing the point that a post-operation transgender, who completely switched gender, will now have to go back to the restrooms of their old gender, they and society do NOT identify with. Why would prefer a transgender man in the women's bathroom? It's just absurd.
That bill is wrong because it divides instead of unites. Good for Apple and 67 other companies on realising that.
So get rid of all laws. Problem solved.
Are you incapable of comprehending concepts in the abstract–specifically the idea of future repercussions of a given action?And you have the audacity to wonder why I told you RIGHT off the bat that you have no clue what we’re even discussing...[citation needed]
There is if there’s a law against a given action.
1. Complete bullshit.
2. If that was the point, “modern society” would have collapsed the month it got off the ground.
NOPE. Moral relativism is bullshit. “The majority is always sane” was not a tenant to follow. It was a warning.
There is if there’s a law against a given action.
No force of will, no power of man, and no act of a god will ever make you anything than what your genes dictate.
They.
I’d prefer a transgender man getting the treatment he needs.
No fucking kidding.
Not an argument. Suicidal insanity, rather.
Engaging him on any level that gives any credence or legitimacy to his (probably fake, certainly plagiarized) views just encourages him to do more grandstanding in his desperate need for attention.
Ignore or belittle, I swing between the two. And I genuinely doubt that he's spoken to anyone that he isn't related to for a while.
Also he apparently believes we are a total slave to our genes. A total nature not nurture advocate. So better stop that research into gene therapy. It's apparently impossible!
This viewpoint is something many people disagree with and unfortunately many agree with.
If that's what you believe, it's the best argument you will ever have to accept the LGBT community. Put it on a sticker and do some good in the world.
Wow, just wow.
You confuse two distinct groups: perverts and transgenders. As long as you will keep doing that, there's no point in continuing this discussion.
If some people feel uneasy around transgenders that's the problem of those people. Not of the transgender. Fifty years ago, some people felt uneasy sitting next to someone of another color in the bus. Times change and you can drag your feet about it but don't hold the rest of society back while we want to continue forward.
I'm glad these 68 companies are setting an example.
States' rights has been a mostly dead issue since the 14th Amendment. There's still a few things left that the Constitution doesn't address, like dealing with intra-State commerce, but for the most part, the States must now also abide by U.S. Constitutional restrictions.
In the main, that's a good thing, as States no longer have the "right" to, for instance, infringe your free speech rights, but it does give the Feds an opportunity for overreach in some things.
What's next, outlawing urinals?
Second, you do know that, like your gods and fiat currency, gender identity is an imagined construct. Humans define these constructs and only humans adhere to them. No bear will agree to not maul you regardless of what number you offer to write on a bank check in his name. And your genes aren't the final word on your ultimate gender identity. Hell, in nature, genes aren't always even the final word in reproductive role. Just ask any of the species of fish who swap gender, and successfully mate as their new gender. In this case, the environment (a lack of males in the population, for example) is more deterministic of the fish's ultimate gender. You can speak of X and Y chromosomes all you like, but we're not talking about that in this conversation, and I suspect you know that. We're not speaking of reproductive ability, we're talking about gender IDENTITY, aren't we? And which bathroom to use.
https://www.acpeds.org/the-college-speaks/position-statements/gender-ideology-harms-children
Does that count for medical expertise?