I'm shocked by the level of ignorance, hate and intolerance on this forum. Everybody is an expert, everybody has an opinion... No wonder crazy backward laws like these are passed. Sad.
And as it seems multinationals and big corporations are now our moral compass, they are very pessimistic times indeed.
You're framing the issue yourself by your own words in almost every sentence, so please spare me the "above the fray" appeal.
Want to keep score on who's using the most "framing" devices and logical fallacies? I can put up the wiki pages for those things and we can go through the response and argue those points? It's pointless but surely one will come on top and we'll all feel "better" about that...
BTW, I'm a bi women, been around trans men, women in the hundreds through volunteer work since the 1980s (also volunteered during the height of the AIDS Crisis around gay men). So, I'm EXTREMELY well versed on this subject.
I've heard all of the myriads arguments on this and the appeal to "protecting" (sic) children, women and don't want to hear a word about it.
There is no stats on this needing to be addressed, just like there is no stats on significant voting fraud. Trans men and women (and queer men and women) use bathroom appropriate to their assumed gender all the time with no issue at all. These are dog whistle laws, not meant to solve any real problem, but meant to appeal to the GOP's base's bias and prejudices (this law and the voting "rights" (sic) laws) Often used as a distraction while the GOP base is kicking their own base on economic issues.
Trans men & women being called sick, pedophiles, perverts, being harassed, rocks thrown at them, apartments defaced, facing death-treats, so many suicides, so many disowned, thrown out of their apartments, sleeping on the street, can't get jobs, keeps jobs, etc.
It's just too much bullshit that I've been dealing with in helping the community for 30 years
This irrational "fear" based on nothing at all. must not be accommodated just like the fear of blacks, mexicans, gays, or whatever bogeyman must not be accommodated.
And yes, I don't give a shit about those irrational fears; people will get over them and move on.
So now I understand where your seeing everything I write with a bias. I'm approaching this as a logical problem, from a scientific point of view. I have zero bias on this topic. Zero. If it were up to me, I'd deal with this very specific issue as its dealt with in countries I've visited, like the Philippines. There, despite there being the same prejudices against the LGBT community, on top of widespread poverty, on this specific issue, it's live and let live. Nobody cares or minds which bathroom anyone uses. When I try to have a conversation about how to think about the issue, you seem to immediately assume I'm for NC's law. I could give a rats ass about NC, or politics in general. I deal in logic and facts. But you seem unwilling to have the conversation on that level. You're too wrapped up in the greater issues, understandably. But don't cast me with the others you see as hateful, because I simply don't have that in my nature.
Go on Wiki, go to framing as used in rhetoric and go to logical fallacies and go through all your own posts with a fine tooth comb. Send it to a teacher, a whatever if you want outside opinion.
I'm not going to talk about this again because your assertion that your actually building a logical argument is absurd and I don't accept it.
I'm an computer engineer, systems architect with 25 years+ of experience (+ grad degrees at McGill) and Tech Lead of several startups so I'm pretty versed well versed in logic... "Thanks" for sharing though...
Nothing is a fallacious and pisses me off as the "above the fray" framing when actual facts don't support it.
First, you do know you're making a reference to an imaginary being (this God thing you mention)? That pretty much tells any educated person where your arguments are coming from. And it's not a viable place.
Do you have an argument or can I go back to laughing at you for thinking that chromosomes are wrong about what they are?
Second, you do know that, like your gods and fiat currency, gender identity is an imagined construct.
If gender is a social construct, then there is no such thing as a “gender binary”. If this is true, how can one “transition” between “genders” or be “genderfluid?” If gender is a social construct and stereotypical gender binary “gender identities” and the gender roles stereotypically assigned thereto are entirely made up by an oppressive society for its own uses, why would “transgenders” want to take on, themselves, made up roles assigned to the nonexistent “gender” to which they are transitioning, and thus reenforce the system’s fake stereotypes of gender roles in the gender binary? By this “logic”, a man can act like a man but claim that he is a woman and feel no need in “transitioning”, and everyone must accept it.
No bear will agree to not maul you
No bear is stupid enough to lop off its own penis and try to mate with other male bears.
Hell, in nature, genes aren't always even the final word in reproductive role. Just ask any of the species of fish who swap gender, and successfully mate as their new gender.
Okay. Prove human gender swapping. Just like parthenogenesis, you’re not going to be able to. Because that’s utter nonsense.
You can speak of X and Y chromosomes all you like, but we're not talking about that in this conversation
That’s exactly what we’re fucking talking about. You don’t magically get to pretend to be something you’re not and expect everyone who isn’t mentally ill to go along with it. If someone says they are Napoleon trapped in the body of a modern day human, society agrees they are insane and the person is given medication and treatment. They are not invited to rule France (or exiled) for being Napoleon.
Of course, this is a “terrible” sign of the “oppression” that “transNapoleons” face on a daily basis. Every single day, they try to live their lives in accordance with their inner “identity” as Emperor of the French, King of Italy, and Protector of the Rhine Confederations. Every single day, they are derided and mocked. Small children run up to them and yell, “You’ll never be real emperor!” and “You’ll never lead the Grand Armee against the combined armies of Tsar Alexander and Emperor Francis at Austerlitz!”
All they want is what other Napoleons have–absolute power over the French Empire and its satellites in Europe, plus a dedicated Corps of Imperial Guards and a palace in which to live. But they can’t even move into the Palais de Versailles without “bigoted” policemen trying to arrest them.
Think about that. We cis-identified people get to live in our natural homes, but if they try to move into their natural home, they get arrested. I don’t even want to think about how the Russians would treat them if they went to visit Moscow.
So have a heart, mes amis. Start working for greater social justice for transNapoleons!
I asked before; I didn’t get a response: If I identify as 14,600,000 square miles of saltwater, can I be transatlantic? You’re a bigot if you demean the question in any way, much less give me a response I don’t like. After all, those are your own rules.
crowley said: Really doesn't matter what the SPLC is or isn't, we aren't relying on them for scientific evidence.
Sure it is pumpkin. The SPLC just took statements from the ACPs website and actions that they've taken on the public record and collected them on a web page. You can accuse them of bias if you want, I care not, the SPLC isn't the organisation in question, it's the ACP, because they've been cited as a scientific authority, when in reality they're a fringe group whose existence is predicated on their bias. This is evident from thbeir values and objectives: https://www.acpeds.org/about-us, which are more political than medical.
crowley said: the SPLC isn't the organisation in question
It is. The only response to science is science. They have none.
Sorry buttercup, they aren't in question, and they aren't claiming any science. They are claiming that APC don't present unbiased science, they present politically biased opinion. It is not disputable that the APC are not an independent research group, since they are openly and actively a lobbying organization; its on their own webpage.
You don't need to fight non-science with science, you just point out that it isn't science.
In terms you might understand: "they don't have a fucking argument"
First, you do know you're making a reference to an imaginary being (this God thing you mention)? That pretty much tells any educated person where your arguments are coming from. And it's not a viable place.
Do you have an argument or can I go back to laughing at you for thinking that chromosomes are wrong about what they are?
My argument is sound. You're the one evoking imaginary beings and mischaracterizing what I'm saying. This is a issue of gender identity, but you seem not to understand what the word identify means, so you keep dropping it from the conversation and basing your responses on merely the word gender.
Second, you do know that, like your gods and fiat currency, gender identity is an imagined construct.
If gender is a social construct, then there is no such thing as a “gender binary”. If this is true, how can one “transition” between “genders” or be “genderfluid?” If gender is a social construct and stereotypical gender binary “gender identities” and the gender roles stereotypically assigned thereto are entirely made up by an oppressive society for its own uses, why would “transgenders” want to take on, themselves, made up roles assigned to the nonexistent “gender” to which they are transitioning, and thus reenforce the system’s fake stereotypes of gender roles in the gender binary? By this “logic”, a man can act like a man but claim that he is a woman and feel no need in “transitioning”, and everyone must accept it.
We're talking about gender identity. You keep taking my words, gender identity, and shortening them to just gender. That's where you're losing the plot.
Look, even in a world of just men and women, there is a spectrum from the most girliest of girls to the most manliest of men. When my friend the stone mason laughs at me when I tell him I spent the morning tearing out the countertops getting ready for the new granite to be delivered, and he asks if I got my girly office worker hands dirty while reminding me how many tons of rock he shifted that morning, I remind him that he married a woman who looks and dresses just like him. So if being an office worker with girly hands gets me the females farther down the spectrum of femininity, which is where I date, then I'll wear the label happily. So you don't even need to speak of biology to speak to gender identity. There are more and less rugged, manly men, and more and less girly, feminine women in this world, all of whole identify as either make or female. What makes you think that's all that lies along the spectrum?
No bear will agree to not maul you
No bear is stupid enough to lop off its own penis and try to mate with other male bears.
regardless, you are still speak of imaginary beings.
Hell, in nature, genes aren't always even the final word in reproductive role. Just ask any of the species of fish who swap gender, and successfully mate as their new gender.
Okay. Prove human gender swapping. Just like parthenogenesis, you’re not going to be able to. Because that’s utter nonsense.
You can speak of X and Y chromosomes all you like, but we're not talking about that in this conversation
That’s exactly what we’re fucking talking about. You don’t magically get to pretend to be something you’re not and expect everyone who isn’t mentally ill to go along with it. If someone says they are Napoleon trapped in the body of a modern day human, society agrees they are insane and the person is given medication and treatment. They are not invited to rule France (or exiled) for being Napoleon.
Of course, this is a “terrible” sign of the “oppression” that “transNapoleons” face on a daily basis. Every single day, they try to live their lives in accordance with their inner “identity” as Emperor of the French, King of Italy, and Protector of the Rhine Confederations. Every single day, they are derided and mocked. Small children run up to them and yell, “You’ll never be real emperor!” and “You’ll never lead the Grand Armee against the combined armies of Tsar Alexander and Emperor Francis at Austerlitz!”
All they want is what other Napoleons have–absolute power over the French Empire and its satellites in Europe, plus a dedicated Corps of Imperial Guards and a palace in which to live. But they can’t even move into the Palais de Versailles without “bigoted” policemen trying to arrest them.
Think about that. We cis-identified people get to live in our natural homes, but if they try to move into their natural home, they get arrested. I don’t even want to think about how the Russians would treat them if they went to visit Moscow.
So have a heart, mes amis. Start working for greater social justice for transNapoleons!
I asked before; I didn’t get a response: If I identify as 14,600,000 square miles of saltwater, can I be transatlantic? You’re a bigot if you demean the question in any way, much less give me a response I don’t like. After all, those are your own rules.
So now I understand where your seeing everything I write with a bias. I'm approaching this as a logical problem, from a scientific point of view. I have zero bias on this topic. Zero. If it were up to me, I'd deal with this very specific issue as its dealt with in countries I've visited, like the Philippines. There, despite there being the same prejudices against the LGBT community, on top of widespread poverty, on this specific issue, it's live and let live. Nobody cares or minds which bathroom anyone uses. When I try to have a conversation about how to think about the issue, you seem to immediately assume I'm for NC's law. I could give a rats ass about NC, or politics in general. I deal in logic and facts. But you seem unwilling to have the conversation on that level. You're too wrapped up in the greater issues, understandably. But don't cast me with the others you see as hateful, because I simply don't have that in my nature.
Go on Wiki, go to framing as used in rhetoric and go to logical fallacies and go through all your own posts with a fine tooth comb. Send it to a teacher, a whatever if you want outside opinion.
I'm not going to talk about this again because your assertion that your actually building a logical argument is absurd and I don't accept it.
I'm an computer engineer, systems architect with 25 years+ of experience (+ grad degrees at McGill) and Tech Lead of several startups so I'm pretty versed well versed in logic... "Thanks" for sharing though...
Nothing is a fallacious and pisses me off as the "above the fray" framing when actual facts don't support it.
And yeah I'm far from above the fray....
So according to you, NOBODY can be above the fray. A very long time ago I grasped the concept of imaginary versus objective reality, and have for decades practiced to see things apart from the myopia and brainwashing that is culture and much of modern society. You really should try to take a fully objective view of things, stepping all the way out of your biases. It can be done, but it takes a concerted effort to peel back all the layers. It's a great place to reside, out here beyond the fray.
crowley said: You don't need to fight non-science with science, you just point out that it isn't science.
The only way to point it out is with science. They have none. Pretty simple to comprehend.
We're talking about gender identity. You keep taking my words, gender identity, and shortening them to just gender.
Because it’s mental illness to think you’re something you’re not. If it was actually about gender identity, the latter portion of my statement:
By this “logic”, a man can act like a man but claim that he is a woman and feel no need in “transitioning”, and everyone must accept it.
would be the only thing we hear about. It’s not. These people are mutilating themselves. They are pretending they actually are the other sex, not just calling themselves it.
Look, even in a world of just men and women, there is a spectrum from the most girliest of girls to the most manliest of men.
Okay. And because a real spectrum exists, that magically means that a fake one also exists, despite literally every single point of scientific evidence saying otherwise?
regardless, you are still speak of imaginary beings.
crowley said: You don't need to fight non-science with science, you just point out that it isn't science.
The only way to point it out is with science. They have none. Pretty simple to comprehend.
Sorry sugar, but no. Science is as much about the method as the result, because bad method contaminates the result. The ACP is not a practioner of good scientific methods. Again, they are a lobbying group. Unless they can present independent research to back up their claims then they have no argument and no science worth taking the time to disprove. They have none. You do not need contradictory science to point that out, it is its own contradiction.
You know how when someone posts a link to a website you don't like and you act like a total ass about it? That's this, except with logic and reason.
crowley said: Unless they can present independent research to back up their claims
I’ve done so. My research align with theirs. You still don’t give a shit. Because you don’t care about fact. You care about feelings.
I wasn't responding to "your" research, I was responding to what lcoco3 posted, which was the ACP, which is an institution founded on feelings before fact. So please stop projecting your shit onto me and discussions that you aren't involved in.
Oh, and if you're referring to that copy-pasted list of links you posted a few pages back as independent research and facts, then that's a joke. You've been thoroughly disassembled there, pookie.
There's a very specific question in there, and for the reasons I've outlined the answer is no. I don't really give a damn what you think a bunch of links you found in some scuzzy backwater forum prove, I'm not talking to them.
It's not always about you, special though you may be.
Comments
https://www.splcenter.org/hatewatch/2015/11/13/meet-anti-lgbt-hate-group-filed-amicus-brief-alabama-supreme-court
I can Google as well.
http://humanevents.com/2011/07/28/isnt-the-southern-poverty-law-center-the-real-hate-group-2/
http://www.thesocialcontract.com/answering_our_critics/southern_poverty_law_center_splc_info.html
http://www.huffingtonpost.com/carol-m-swain/mission-creep-and-the-sou_b_255029.html
Left/Right, we all have out views on things. Will leave you with a favorite from Ronald Reagan:
“It isn't so much that liberals are ignorant. It's just that they know so many things that aren't so.”
No wonder crazy backward laws like these are passed. Sad.
And as it seems multinationals and big corporations are now our moral compass, they are very pessimistic times indeed.
Send it to a teacher, a whatever if you want outside opinion.
I'm not going to talk about this again because your assertion that your actually building a logical argument is absurd and I don't accept it.
I'm an computer engineer, systems architect with 25 years+ of experience (+ grad degrees at McGill)
and Tech Lead of several startups so I'm pretty versed well versed in logic... "Thanks" for sharing though...
Nothing is a fallacious and pisses me off as the "above the fray" framing when actual facts don't support it.
And yeah I'm far from above the fray....
Guess who isn’t born that way.
So no citation, then. Not even an attempt to back it up. Just 13-year-old valley girl shitposting.Nope. Again, mental illness is mental illness. The brain registers it even if the person doesn’t.
IT’S THE CURRENT YEAR!
Buy a fucking map. In this case it’s a medical textbook.
radarthekat said: Do you have an argument or can I go back to laughing at you for thinking that chromosomes are wrong about what they are?
If gender is a social construct, then there is no such thing as a “gender binary”. If this is true, how can one “transition” between “genders” or be “genderfluid?” If gender is a social construct and stereotypical gender binary “gender identities” and the gender roles stereotypically assigned thereto are entirely made up by an oppressive society for its own uses, why would “transgenders” want to take on, themselves, made up roles assigned to the nonexistent “gender” to which they are transitioning, and thus reenforce the system’s fake stereotypes of gender roles in the gender binary? By this “logic”, a man can act like a man but claim that he is a woman and feel no need in “transitioning”, and everyone must accept it.
No bear is stupid enough to lop off its own penis and try to mate with other male bears.Okay. Prove human gender swapping. Just like parthenogenesis, you’re not going to be able to. Because that’s utter nonsense.
That’s exactly what we’re fucking talking about. You don’t magically get to pretend to be something you’re not and expect everyone who isn’t mentally ill to go along with it. If someone says they are Napoleon trapped in the body of a modern day human, society agrees they are insane and the person is given medication and treatment. They are not invited to rule France (or exiled) for being Napoleon.
Of course, this is a “terrible” sign of the “oppression” that “transNapoleons” face on a daily basis. Every single day, they try to live their lives in accordance with their inner “identity” as Emperor of the French, King of Italy, and Protector of the Rhine Confederations. Every single day, they are derided and mocked. Small children run up to them and yell, “You’ll never be real emperor!” and “You’ll never lead the Grand Armee against the combined armies of Tsar Alexander and Emperor Francis at Austerlitz!”
All they want is what other Napoleons have–absolute power over the French Empire and its satellites in Europe, plus a dedicated Corps of Imperial Guards and a palace in which to live. But they can’t even move into the Palais de Versailles without “bigoted” policemen trying to arrest them.
Think about that. We cis-identified people get to live in our natural homes, but if they try to move into their natural home, they get arrested. I don’t even want to think about how the Russians would treat them if they went to visit Moscow.
So have a heart, mes amis. Start working for greater social justice for transNapoleons!
You don't need to fight non-science with science, you just point out that it isn't science.
In terms you might understand: "they don't have a fucking argument"
Because it’s mental illness to think you’re something you’re not. If it was actually about gender identity, the latter portion of my statement:
By this “logic”, a man can act like a man but claim that he is a woman and feel no need in “transitioning”, and everyone must accept it.
would be the only thing we hear about. It’s not. These people are mutilating themselves. They are pretending they actually are the other sex, not just calling themselves it.
Okay. And because a real spectrum exists, that magically means that a fake one also exists, despite literally every single point of scientific evidence saying otherwise?
I have news for you.How dare you say I can’t identify as Napoleon! En garde, Napolephobe! Also no shit we are; that’s what I’m saying.
You know how when someone posts a link to a website you don't like and you act like a total ass about it? That's this, except with logic and reason.
Thanks sweety-pie.
And when they come to the same conclusion...
Actually, I probably do need to finish that sentence, since your reading comprehension is so anemic you won’t know what I’m implying.
I'm responding to this...
There's a very specific question in there, and for the reasons I've outlined the answer is no. I don't really give a damn what you think a bunch of links you found in some scuzzy backwater forum prove, I'm not talking to them.
It's not always about you, special though you may be.