Irish cabinet votes to appeal EU's $14.5B tax penalty on Apple

Posted:
in General Discussion
Apple's appeal of the European Commission's $14.5 billion charge in back taxes will be aided by Ireland's cabinet, who voted on Friday to endorse the legal challenge.




With approval from Ireland's cabinet, the republic's parliament will vote to support Apple and the nation's tax policies next week, according to Reuters. The result was expected but not guaranteed --?independents on the cabinet did not back the move.

Still, Apple has the support of Irish Finance Minister Michael Noonan and opposition party Fianna Fail. As a result, it's expected that Apple will easily win the support of parliament.

The European Commission, which is the legislative arm of the European Union, announced on Tuesday that it was levying a 13-billion-euro charge ($14.5 billion U.S.) against Apple for what it believes are unpaid back taxes. The Commission declared that tax rates on European profits were illegally low at 0.005 percent in 2014, and 1 percent in 2013.

Apple has already vowed to appeal the ruling, and has expressed confidence that the decision will be reversed. That process could take considerable time, however --?IBM just concluded a 7-year dispute with Japanese tax authorities, for example.

Regardless of how it plays out, Apple has more than enough cash on hand to pay the EU's tax bill. As of the end of last quarter, the company reported some $231 billion in cash, most of it held outside of the U.S.
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Comments

  • Reply 1 of 56
    gwydiongwydion Posts: 1,067member
    The Commission declared that tax rates on European profits were illegally low at 0.005 percent in 2014, and 1 percent in 2013

    No, this is not what the EC declared, what the EC declared illegal is the deal between the Irish Government and Apple for the way the amount of taxable profits in Ireland were calculated for Apple Sales International.

    The rate applied was 12.5%,  The problem has never been with the tax rates in Ireland, or the tax rates in Belgium in the latest analog ruling
    edited September 2016 gatorguysingularityentropysronn
  • Reply 2 of 56
    Just because I have $1000 in the bank, doesn't mean I want to pay someone $10 just because it would be a hassle to fight it. The logic that because Apple has a lot of money on hand they should just pay it is asinine.
    Capriguyrogifan_newSpamSandwichstevehpalominejustadcomicsentropys
  • Reply 3 of 56
    gwydion said:
    The Commission declared that tax rates on European profits were illegally low at 0.005 percent in 2014, and 1 percent in 2013

    No, this is not what the EC declared, what the EC declared illegal is the deal between the Irish Government and Apple for the way the amount of taxable profits in Ireland were calculated for Apple Sales International.

    The rate applied was 12.5%,  The problem has never been with the tax rates in Ireland, or the tax rates in Belgium in the latest analog ruling
    Incorrect.. The commission never proved their was a 'special' deal.. They only claimed it based on the 'low rates' in those years.. Their case is truly based on the low rates.. Which is why Ireland is largely fighting it, saying EU shouldn't be able to set their rates.

    It's believed this move by the EU is a first political move to attempt to force it's will of equalized rates across all countries that are part of the EU.. I have a feeling that, while people are poo poo'ing Apple, that soon other countries will soon (Netherlands for example) be in the EU's sights and things will heat up even more.

    The irony is; Tim Cook is completely disputing the low rates they claim. Example is Apple says they paid Ireland $400 million (5%) in taxes in 2014; which completely contradicts EU's contention that Apple only paid a $4-5 million (.005%) ... I'm VERY interested in seeing where the EU is getting their low numbers from..
    edited September 2016 stevehpalominejustadcomicsentropystmayjony0justbobfhlee1169argonaut
  • Reply 4 of 56
    adrayven said:
    Just because I have $1000 in the bank, doesn't mean I want to pay someone $10 just because it would be a hassle to fight it. The logic that because Apple has a lot of money on hand they should just pay it is asinine.
    I don't think anyone is arguing that are they? Those saying Apple should pay up, at least think it's ethical for Apple to pay taxes or even illegal not to.
    ronnjustbobf
  • Reply 5 of 56
    It's a touch early. The European Weltverbesserer will come to to this thread soon enough to tell you why Apple is wrong and every cent has to be paid. 

    Sadly, the damage has been done already. Had te commission simply declared that no tax aid can be given (in the future) this all could have been avoided. In that respect I think what Steve Cook has said makes sense. Simply Pro-europeanism.
    Capriguyentropys
  • Reply 6 of 56
    gatorguygatorguy Posts: 19,817member
    adrayven said:
    gwydion said:
    The Commission declared that tax rates on European profits were illegally low at 0.005 percent in 2014, and 1 percent in 2013

    No, this is not what the EC declared, what the EC declared illegal is the deal between the Irish Government and Apple for the way the amount of taxable profits in Ireland were calculated for Apple Sales International.

    The rate applied was 12.5%,  The problem has never been with the tax rates in Ireland, or the tax rates in Belgium in the latest analog ruling
    Incorrect.. The commission never proved their was a 'special' deal.. They only claimed it based on the 'low rates' in those years.. Their case is truly based on the low rates..
    You're getting ahead of yourself. The EU would disagree with you about what has been proven. None of us have even seen the full report yet so we're all commenting with extremely limited knowledge of the facts. If there's no "proof" then neither Ireland nor Apple has anything to worry about. If the EU has overstepped their authority then again neither Ireland nor Apple has anything to worry about as the courts will toss it out. 
    gwydionronn
  • Reply 7 of 56
    Ireland and apple won't get away with this.
    Good apple is putting money aside to deal with their crap. 
    edited September 2016 ronn
  • Reply 8 of 56
    listening to Tim saying that apple has paid every penny in taxes reminds me of Bill Clinton denying any sexual contact with Lewinsky 
    singularitycrowleyronn
  • Reply 9 of 56
    gwydiongwydion Posts: 1,067member
    adrayven said:
    gwydion said:
    The Commission declared that tax rates on European profits were illegally low at 0.005 percent in 2014, and 1 percent in 2013

    No, this is not what the EC declared, what the EC declared illegal is the deal between the Irish Government and Apple for the way the amount of taxable profits in Ireland were calculated for Apple Sales International.

    The rate applied was 12.5%,  The problem has never been with the tax rates in Ireland, or the tax rates in Belgium in the latest analog ruling
    Incorrect.. The commission never proved their was a 'special' deal.. They only claimed it based on the 'low rates' in those years.. Their case is truly based on the low rates.. Which is why Ireland is largely fighting it, saying EU shouldn't be able to set their rates.

    It's believed this move by the EU is a first political move to attempt to force it's will of equalized rates across all countries that are part of the EU.. I have a feeling that, while people are poo poo'ing Apple, that soon other countries will soon (Netherlands for example) be in the EU's sights and things will heat up even more.

    The irony is; Tim Cook is completely disputing the low rates they claim. Example is Apple says they paid Ireland $400 million (5%) in taxes in 2014; which completely contradicts EU's contention that Apple only paid a $4-5 million (.005%) ... I'm VERY interested in seeing where the EU is getting their low numbers from..

    The you should read the Press Release and the ruling.

    And the EC has never said that Apple has paid an effective rate of 0.005%
    ronnblitz1
  • Reply 10 of 56
    Give the Irish a referendum. I didn't speak to a single person on my trip to Dublin who didn't congratulate me on getting out of the EU.
    JanNLstevehpalomineapple ][entropys
  • Reply 11 of 56
    adrayven said:
    Just because I have $1000 in the bank, doesn't mean I want to pay someone $10 just because it would be a hassle to fight it. The logic that because Apple has a lot of money on hand they should just pay it is asinine.
    I don't think anyone is arguing that are they? Those saying Apple should pay up, at least think it's ethical for Apple to pay taxes or even illegal not to.
    What are you talking about? Apple pays more taxes than any other corporation.
    justadcomicshlee1169
  • Reply 12 of 56
    JanNLJanNL Posts: 257member
    adrayven said:
    gwydion said:
    The Commission declared that tax rates on European profits were illegally low at 0.005 percent in 2014, and 1 percent in 2013

    No, this is not what the EC declared, what the EC declared illegal is the deal between the Irish Government and Apple for the way the amount of taxable profits in Ireland were calculated for Apple Sales International.

    The rate applied was 12.5%,  The problem has never been with the tax rates in Ireland, or the tax rates in Belgium in the latest analog ruling

    It's believed this move by the EU is a first political move to attempt to force it's will of equalized rates across all countries that are part of the EU.. I have a feeling that, while people are poo poo'ing Apple, that soon other countries will soon (Netherlands for example) be in the EU's sights and things will heat up even more.

    Netherlands were already in the sights of EU, with Starbucks, but paid too easy. Nice the Irish don't give in.
    entropys
  • Reply 13 of 56
    johnbear said:
    Ireland and apple won't get away with this.
    Good apple is putting money aside to deal with their crap. 
    Apple and Ireland will not get away with not doing anything wrong. Welcome to bizarro world.
    edited September 2016 palominejustadcomics
  • Reply 14 of 56
    bellsbells Posts: 111member
    gwydion said:
    adrayven said:
    gwydion said:
    The Commission declared that tax rates on European profits were illegally low at 0.005 percent in 2014, and 1 percent in 2013

    No, this is not what the EC declared, what the EC declared illegal is the deal between the Irish Government and Apple for the way the amount of taxable profits in Ireland were calculated for Apple Sales International.

    The rate applied was 12.5%,  The problem has never been with the tax rates in Ireland, or the tax rates in Belgium in the latest analog ruling
    Incorrect.. The commission never proved their was a 'special' deal.. They only claimed it based on the 'low rates' in those years.. Their case is truly based on the low rates.. Which is why Ireland is largely fighting it, saying EU shouldn't be able to set their rates.

    It's believed this move by the EU is a first political move to attempt to force it's will of equalized rates across all countries that are part of the EU.. I have a feeling that, while people are poo poo'ing Apple, that soon other countries will soon (Netherlands for example) be in the EU's sights and things will heat up even more.

    The irony is; Tim Cook is completely disputing the low rates they claim. Example is Apple says they paid Ireland $400 million (5%) in taxes in 2014; which completely contradicts EU's contention that Apple only paid a $4-5 million (.005%) ... I'm VERY interested in seeing where the EU is getting their low numbers from..

    The you should read the Press Release and the ruling.

    And the EC has never said that Apple has paid an effective rate of 0.005%
    Yes, because a press release is the way to get your facts. 

    I have  little idea how much Apple has paid in taxes, but I know the taxes system of Ireland has been in place ever since Apple set up shop over 30 years ago. I read about it when Jobs first came back.

    The rate was designed to attract foreign investment, desperately needed in Ireland. Many companies took advantage of the tax laws, and no special deal was set up just for Apple. 

    It simply is unfair for the EU to 30 + years later claim Apple has been under paying when it has known for that long Ireland's tax rate and how much companies like Apple paid. This isn't a recent revelation. 

    Further, if Ireland set an illegal rate, Ireland should eat the cost not a company following the law.

    Moreover, the fight isn't really about the taxes, it is about who gets to collect them. Apple's view is the US is the proper taxing entity.

    The instability this precedent sets will destabilize European investment and costs will be passed on to consumers.  

    This will validate Britain's decision to leave the EU. 

    I think companies like Apple should pay more taxes, but not retroactively. Governments should clarify the tax laws.
    JanNLpalominesricetmayhlee1169argonaut
  • Reply 15 of 56
    Capriguy said:
    No matter what Ireland wants they must comply with what we say. 
    I initially thought you were joking and thought this was hilarious. Then I read your previous post and realized that you might be crazy...please clarify.
    stevehJanNLpacificfilmnolamacguyjustadcomicsronnargonaut
  • Reply 16 of 56
    adrayven said:
    gwydion said:
    The Commission declared that tax rates on European profits were illegally low at 0.005 percent in 2014, and 1 percent in 2013

    No, this is not what the EC declared, what the EC declared illegal is the deal between the Irish Government and Apple for the way the amount of taxable profits in Ireland were calculated for Apple Sales International.

    The rate applied was 12.5%,  The problem has never been with the tax rates in Ireland, or the tax rates in Belgium in the latest analog ruling
    Incorrect.. The commission never proved their was a 'special' deal.. They only claimed it based on the 'low rates' in those years.. Their case is truly based on the low rates.. Which is why Ireland is largely fighting it, saying EU shouldn't be able to set their rates.

    It's believed this move by the EU is a first political move to attempt to force it's will of equalized rates across all countries that are part of the EU.. I have a feeling that, while people are poo poo'ing Apple, that soon other countries will soon (Netherlands for example) be in the EU's sights and things will heat up even more.

    The irony is; Tim Cook is completely disputing the low rates they claim. Example is Apple says they paid Ireland $400 million (5%) in taxes in 2014; which completely contradicts EU's contention that Apple only paid a $4-5 million (.005%) ... I'm VERY interested in seeing where the EU is getting their low numbers from..
    Maybe Ireland was misreporting and skimming from the taxes? ;)
    JanNL
  • Reply 17 of 56
    The former EU Commissioner -- Neelie Kroes, who was no great friend of multinational corporations avoiding taxes -- is lambasting this EU decision and report. In The Guardian, no less. https://www.theguardian.com/technology/2016/sep/01/eu-state-aid-tax-avoidance-apple

    Worth a read, especially if you live, or do business, in the EU.
    sricehlee1169
  • Reply 18 of 56
    Capriguy said:
    igorsky said:
    Capriguy said:
    No matter what Ireland wants they must comply with what we say. 
    I initially thought you were joking and thought this was hilarious. Then I read your previous post and realized that you might be crazy...please clarify.
    How much you pay in taxes igor? You probably owe us. Have you been in EU lately? If not for Apple Nokia be the most powerful mobile company in the world. Nokia had the best phones ever, and now it's unfair that Nokia can't make iPhone destroyer due to this tax deal. 
    I have to tell you my first reaction was to laugh...I'm thinking "this is a funny dude!".  Yet I'm still on the fence about how serious you may or may not be.

    To clarify, I live in the United States and pay all the taxes that I legally owe, no more, no less.  Just as Apple has done in Ireland.  However I'll be visiting the UK later this month...please advise on the tax code so that I will be prepared when I get there.
    edited September 2016 Capriguyroundaboutnow
  • Reply 19 of 56
    JanNLJanNL Posts: 257member
    The former EU Commissioner -- Neelie Kroes, who was no great friend of multinational corporations avoiding taxes -- is lambasting this EU decision and report. In The Guardian, no less. https://www.theguardian.com/technology/2016/sep/01/eu-state-aid-tax-avoidance-apple

    Worth a read, especially if you live, or do business, in the EU.
    And, not unexpectedly, the EU Commission gives her a reprimande within a day. But she's right.
    Capriguyentropys
  • Reply 20 of 56
    gwydiongwydion Posts: 1,067member
    bells said:
    gwydion said:
    adrayven said:
    gwydion said:
    The Commission declared that tax rates on European profits were illegally low at 0.005 percent in 2014, and 1 percent in 2013

    No, this is not what the EC declared, what the EC declared illegal is the deal between the Irish Government and Apple for the way the amount of taxable profits in Ireland were calculated for Apple Sales International.

    The rate applied was 12.5%,  The problem has never been with the tax rates in Ireland, or the tax rates in Belgium in the latest analog ruling
    Incorrect.. The commission never proved their was a 'special' deal.. They only claimed it based on the 'low rates' in those years.. Their case is truly based on the low rates.. Which is why Ireland is largely fighting it, saying EU shouldn't be able to set their rates.

    It's believed this move by the EU is a first political move to attempt to force it's will of equalized rates across all countries that are part of the EU.. I have a feeling that, while people are poo poo'ing Apple, that soon other countries will soon (Netherlands for example) be in the EU's sights and things will heat up even more.

    The irony is; Tim Cook is completely disputing the low rates they claim. Example is Apple says they paid Ireland $400 million (5%) in taxes in 2014; which completely contradicts EU's contention that Apple only paid a $4-5 million (.005%) ... I'm VERY interested in seeing where the EU is getting their low numbers from..

    The you should read the Press Release and the ruling.

    And the EC has never said that Apple has paid an effective rate of 0.005%
    Yes, because a press release is the way to get your facts. 

    I have  little idea how much Apple has paid in taxes, but I know the taxes system of Ireland has been in place ever since Apple set up shop over 30 years ago. I read about it when Jobs first came back.

    The rate was designed to attract foreign investment, desperately needed in Ireland. Many companies took advantage of the tax laws, and no special deal was set up just for Apple. 

    It simply is unfair for the EU to 30 + years later claim Apple has been under paying when it has known for that long Ireland's tax rate and how much companies like Apple paid. This isn't a recent revelation. 

    Further, if Ireland set an illegal rate, Ireland should eat the cost not a company following the law.

    Moreover, the fight isn't really about the taxes, it is about who gets to collect them. Apple's view is the US is the proper taxing entity.

    The instability this precedent sets will destabilize European investment and costs will be passed on to consumers.  

    This will validate Britain's decision to leave the EU. 

    I think companies like Apple should pay more taxes, but not retroactively. Governments should clarify the tax laws.

    How many times must be said that the tax rates of Ireland are not the problem?
    singularitygatorguyronn
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