Apple automatically uploading iPhone call logs to iCloud, forensics firm says [u]

Posted:
in iCloud edited November 2016
Any iPhone user with iCloud Drive enabled is having their call logs automatically uploaded to Apple servers -- without their consent, and whether or not they have backups enabled, a Russian security firm said on Thursday. [Updated with statement from Apple]




The uploads happen "almost in real time, though sometimes only in a few hours," Elcomsoft CEO Vladimir Katalov told Forbes. The logs are said to include FaceTime calls as well, and in the case of iOS 10, missed calls from third-party apps like Skype and WhatsApp.

iPhone owners can stop the uploads by disabling iCloud Drive, Katalov noted, but this cuts off other iCloud-related features and can stop some apps from working.

The data could potentially be useful to government agencies with warrants or other legal access. Officially, though, Apple says the only iCloud data it can provide to agencies includes email logs and content, text messages, photos, documents, contacts, calendars, bookmarks, and iOS device backups.

Apple also says it doesn't hold onto FaceTime call data for more than 30 days, but Elcomsoft said it was able to extract call logs going back over four months. Presumably, deleting a call from an iPhone's logs would also delete that from the iCloud Drive backup.

Apple mentions call histories being included in iCloud backups as part of security whitepaper, but it's likely that most people haven't seen the document.

iOS forensics expert Jonathan Zdziarski suggested to Forbes that the tracking is likely just an oversight related to the handoffs needed for Apple's calling technology, which for instance allows people to seamlessly shift between devices.

"They need to be able to sync a lot of that call data," he said. "I suspect whatever software engineer wrote that part of it probably decided to just go and stick that data in your iCloud Drive because that's kind of what it's purpose is."

Apple could theoretically add end-to-end encryption to iCloud, but this might create even more conflict with U.S. spy and law enforcement agencies, which are already upset about their inability to break into iOS devices. The company stores the keys for iCloud accounts at its U.S. datacenters, allowing them to serve up (readable) data on demand.

Update: An Apple spokesman has provided a statement to AppleInsider:

"We offer call history syncing as a convenience to our customers so that they can return calls from any of their devices. Apple is deeply committed to safeguarding our customers' data. That's why we give our customers the ability to keep their data private. Device data is encrypted with a user's passcode, and access to iCloud data including backups requires the user's Apple ID and password. Apple recommends all customers select strong passwords and use two-factor authentication."
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Comments

  • Reply 1 of 49
    Non-story by someone needing some free publicity for their company.

    You know who else keeps a record of your calls? Your carrier. And you don't have any ability to opt-out of their tracking under any circumstances. And who knows how long they keep those records. I've looked at year-old detailed cell phone bills and seen all the numbers for incoming and outgoing calls.

    Edited. Forgot one more thing. Carriers also track which cell towers your phone connects to.
    edited November 2016 rogifan_newwlymSpamSandwichmike1williamlondonlondornetmageh2phoodslideindyfx
  • Reply 2 of 49
    avon b7avon b7 Posts: 3,757member
    sog35 said:
    good.

    I'm sick and tired of Tim Cook's stance on privacy.

    The hell with privacy. The truth is 99% of the population don't care about privacy. They just want a good product at a good price.

    Its time for Apple to go head first into Advertising and Data collection ala Facebook/Google.

    But one of Cook's pillars is privacy, so he would have egg whites all over his face.

    That's why Cook needs to be replaced with a savy, practical, and ruthless CEO.  Cook is more fit to be a CEO of a non-profit or charity organization. His stance on privacy has literally costed Apple HUNDREDS of BILLIONS in profits.

    Cook has all these pie in the sky ideals - privacy, diversity, gay rights, ect. Fine and dandy. But a CEO of the worlds most powerful company should not have its hands tied because of following those ideals. Cook should keep his personal values SEPERATE from the corporations values. All Apple should be about is providing the BEST PRODUCTS and SERVICES.......period.  If this means less diversity, less privacy, ect. so be it.
    Personal and Corporate values may overlap. Privacy is a fundamental right. Protecting privacy isn't only a question of values but legislation. The problem is that legislation will always trail technological advances. Just look at the problem of drones and privacy. 
    rob53londornetmagelostkiwijbdragonmagman1979ration allolliverargonaut
  • Reply 3 of 49
    sog35 said:
    Non-story by someone needing some free publicity for their company.

    You know who else keeps a record of your calls? Your carrier. And you don't have any ability to opt-out of their tracking under any circumstances. And who knows how long they keep those records. I've looked at year-old detailed cell phone bills and seen all the numbers for incoming and outgoing calls.

    Edited. Forgot one more thing. Carriers also track which cell towers your phone connects to.
    exactly.

    This is also why its so silly that Tim Cook is so strongly pushing privacy. NO ONE CARES. NO ONE. 

    90-95% of iOS users either use Facebook or Google services. So even if Apple keeps things 'private' it does not matter.

    Cook needs to stop talking about privacy and get into the advertising/data collection game.  Not doing so, Cook is losing shareholders HUNDREDS OF BILLIONS.  Apple needs to collect data and advertise. Because Apple users have spoken loud and clear they DONT CARE ABOUT PRIVACY.
    Please choose a different attack vector if this is going to be your latest OCD obsession. Privacy is the big differentiator between iOS and Android and that isn't going to change.
    nouserrob53dick applebaumlondornetmagehoodslideericthehalfbeeroundaboutnowjahbladejbdragon
  • Reply 4 of 49
    Even if the majority of individual users these post authors may be aware of may not care, there are legal jurisdictions (I am in one) that prohibit storing data beyond the immediate territorial/legal border, as it regards confidential and sensitive client data, and so in effect making iCloud illegal for use for such work... In terms of export sales with the new US governance next year could such policies become increasingly ubiquitous and restrictive? The only solutions I can think of for Apple is to either make sure one can properly turn such services off, or perhaps a macOS server version of iCloud, which could be run locally, with encryption that ensures routing (the internet routes far and wide) is secure... Given the privacy creep of all things iCloud into the OSs, I hope Apple comes up with an option that allows for legal use beyond the mindset of the US border...
    edited November 2016
  • Reply 5 of 49
    sog35 said:

    This is also why its so silly that Tim Cook is so strongly pushing privacy. NO ONE CARES. NO ONE. 
    ...
    Because Apple users have spoken loud and clear they DONT CARE ABOUT PRIVACY.
    Until they do. And therein is the rub.
    rob53netmageration alwatto_cobra
  • Reply 6 of 49
    rob53rob53 Posts: 2,028member
    sog35 said:
    Non-story by someone needing some free publicity for their company.

    You know who else keeps a record of your calls? Your carrier. And you don't have any ability to opt-out of their tracking under any circumstances. And who knows how long they keep those records. I've looked at year-old detailed cell phone bills and seen all the numbers for incoming and outgoing calls.

    Edited. Forgot one more thing. Carriers also track which cell towers your phone connects to.
    exactly.

    This is also why its so silly that Tim Cook is so strongly pushing privacy. NO ONE CARES. NO ONE. 

    90-95% of iOS users either use Facebook or Google services. So even if Apple keeps things 'private' it does not matter.

    Cook needs to stop talking about privacy and get into the advertising/data collection game.  Not doing so, Cook is losing shareholders HUNDREDS OF BILLIONS.  Apple needs to collect data and advertise. Because Apple users have spoken loud and clear they DONT CARE ABOUT PRIVACY.
    Sorry sog, I have agreed with a couple of your posts but you're losing your mind on this one. Plenty of people care about privacy and hate all the advertising crap Facebook, Google, Amazon, and way too many other companies force on us. It's difficult to use an Ad blocker because websites are blocking our access to force us to put up with even more crap ads if we want to view their site. In most cases, I just say no. All IDC websites now only allow comments using Facebook or Twitter. Why should I have to use one of those two accounts with all their lack of privacy and forced intrusion into my life just to post a comment? 

    I worked a long time for a government contractor and we required strong privacy and encryption on all of our computers, especially unclassified systems. Just because you don't care doesn't mean the vast majority of people don't need it even though many of these don't understand that fact. Apple is being a big brother/sister without asking because there are way too many people who just don't understand things and need this help. If you wanted to be a responsible person, I'd suggest you spend you time educating people who don't understand how to protect themselves instead of demanding Apple turn into another cheap advertising company who don't produce anything of value (yes, I star with Google, then Facebook and all the other social networks).
    dick applebaumlondornetmagesmiffy31yanimacmacseekerroundaboutnowjahbladejbdragonrandominternetperson
  • Reply 7 of 49
    sog35 said:
    avon b7 said:
    sog35 said:
    good.

    I'm sick and tired of Tim Cook's stance on privacy.

    The hell with privacy. The truth is 99% of the population don't care about privacy. They just want a good product at a good price.

    Its time for Apple to go head first into Advertising and Data collection ala Facebook/Google.

    But one of Cook's pillars is privacy, so he would have egg whites all over his face.

    That's why Cook needs to be replaced with a savy, practical, and ruthless CEO.  Cook is more fit to be a CEO of a non-profit or charity organization. His stance on privacy has literally costed Apple HUNDREDS of BILLIONS in profits.

    Cook has all these pie in the sky ideals - privacy, diversity, gay rights, ect. Fine and dandy. But a CEO of the worlds most powerful company should not have its hands tied because of following those ideals. Cook should keep his personal values SEPERATE from the corporations values. All Apple should be about is providing the BEST PRODUCTS and SERVICES.......period.  If this means less diversity, less privacy, ect. so be it.
    Personal and Corporate values may overlap. Privacy is a fundamental right. Protecting privacy isn't only a question of values but legislation. The problem is that legislation will always trail technological advances. Just look at the problem of drones and privacy. 
    But Apple customers don't give 2 sheets about privacy.

    90-95% of iOS users either are on Facebook or use Google services. That is a FACT.

    Yet Apple sacrifices literally TENS of BILLIONS of dollars because of their ridiculous stance on privacy.

    IMO, I'd rather have Apple be the custodian of my information than Google/Facebook. I want Apple to start their versions of Facebook/Google so they can rake in BILLIONS and also keep that data away from Google/FB.

    Bottom line is people will be using social media and sites that require data collection. With or without Apple. So it makes ZERO sense for Apple to be stubborn and not participate. 

    Cook is actually hurting iOS customers because he is forcing them to use Google/FB instead of an Apple run equilvelent.

    Cook is stuck with 1995 thinking. Data collecting is not evil. Adversting is not evil. As long as the data is kept safe and anonymous its fine. People are willing to sacrifice some privacy for awesome services that make their life more productive and enjoyable. Its time for Apple to wake up and stop their extreme privacy stance.
    OK @sog35, you had your say, now give it a rest!

    netmagetaniwhawaverboyroundaboutnowlostkiwijbdragonai46gilly017boredumbrevenant
  • Reply 8 of 49
    haarhaar Posts: 563member
    One problem, the  handset is uncrackable...  The cloud back up is not!...  Apple will handover the cloud data with a court order ... and that data is decrypted easily.  (And A iphone handset is uncrackable Because you can't get to the data) 

      THEY WILL NOT DECRYPT A HANDSET...  but they will handover the iCloud data.  And the NSA has capabilities to decrypt that data...
     So it looks like you will have to turn off iCloud back ups if you don't want your call logs to end up in the wrong hands...
    lostkiwi
  • Reply 9 of 49
    avon b7avon b7 Posts: 3,757member
    It doesn't matter if users value it or not. That's the least of it. As a fundamental right, it is there and rightly so.

     sog35 said:
    avon b7 said:
    sog35 said:
    good.

    I'm sick and tired of Tim Cook's stance on privacy.

    The hell with privacy. The truth is 99% of the population don't care about privacy. They just want a good product at a good price.

    Its time for Apple to go head first into Advertising and Data collection ala Facebook/Google.

    But one of Cook's pillars is privacy, so he would have egg whites all over his face.

    That's why Cook needs to be replaced with a savy, practical, and ruthless CEO.  Cook is more fit to be a CEO of a non-profit or charity organization. His stance on privacy has literally costed Apple HUNDREDS of BILLIONS in profits.

    Cook has all these pie in the sky ideals - privacy, diversity, gay rights, ect. Fine and dandy. But a CEO of the worlds most powerful company should not have its hands tied because of following those ideals. Cook should keep his personal values SEPERATE from the corporations values. All Apple should be about is providing the BEST PRODUCTS and SERVICES.......period.  If this means less diversity, less privacy, ect. so be it.
    Personal and Corporate values may overlap. Privacy is a fundamental right. Protecting privacy isn't only a question of values but legislation. The problem is that legislation will always trail technological advances. Just look at the problem of drones and privacy. 
    But Apple customers don't give 2 sheets about privacy.

    90-95% of iOS users either are on Facebook or use Google services. That is a FACT.

    Yet Apple sacrifices literally TENS of BILLIONS of dollars because of their ridiculous stance on privacy.

    IMO, I'd rather have Apple be the custodian of my information than Google/Facebook. I want Apple to start their versions of Facebook/Google so they can rake in BILLIONS and also keep that data away from Google/FB.

    Bottom line is people will be using social media and sites that require data collection. With or without Apple. So it makes ZERO sense for Apple to be stubborn and not participate. 

    Cook is actually hurting iOS customers because he is forcing them to use Google/FB instead of an Apple run equilvelent.

    Cook is stuck with 1995 thinking. Data collecting is not evil. Adversting is not evil. As long as the data is kept safe and anonymous its fine. People are willing to sacrifice some privacy for awesome services that make their life more productive and enjoyable. Its time for Apple to wake up and stop their extreme privacy s
    edited November 2016 baconstanglolliver
  • Reply 10 of 49
    sog35 said:
    avon b7 said:
    sog35 said:
    good.

    I'm sick and tired of Tim Cook's stance on privacy.

    The hell with privacy. The truth is 99% of the population don't care about privacy. They just want a good product at a good price.

    Its time for Apple to go head first into Advertising and Data collection ala Facebook/Google.

    But one of Cook's pillars is privacy, so he would have egg whites all over his face.

    That's why Cook needs to be replaced with a savy, practical, and ruthless CEO.  Cook is more fit to be a CEO of a non-profit or charity organization. His stance on privacy has literally costed Apple HUNDREDS of BILLIONS in profits.

    Cook has all these pie in the sky ideals - privacy, diversity, gay rights, ect. Fine and dandy. But a CEO of the worlds most powerful company should not have its hands tied because of following those ideals. Cook should keep his personal values SEPERATE from the corporations values. All Apple should be about is providing the BEST PRODUCTS and SERVICES.......period.  If this means less diversity, less privacy, ect. so be it.
    Personal and Corporate values may overlap. Privacy is a fundamental right. Protecting privacy isn't only a question of values but legislation. The problem is that legislation will always trail technological advances. Just look at the problem of drones and privacy. 
    But Apple customers don't give 2 sheets about privacy.

    90-95% of iOS users either are on Facebook or use Google services. That is a FACT.

    Yet Apple sacrifices literally TENS of BILLIONS of dollars because of their ridiculous stance on privacy.

    IMO, I'd rather have Apple be the custodian of my information than Google/Facebook. I want Apple to start their versions of Facebook/Google so they can rake in BILLIONS and also keep that data away from Google/FB.

    Bottom line is people will be using social media and sites that require data collection. With or without Apple. So it makes ZERO sense for Apple to be stubborn and not participate. 

    Cook is actually hurting iOS customers because he is forcing them to use Google/FB instead of an Apple run equilvelent.

    Cook is stuck with 1995 thinking. Data collecting is not evil. Adversting is not evil. As long as the data is kept safe and anonymous its fine. People are willing to sacrifice some privacy for awesome services that make their life more productive and enjoyable. Its time for Apple to wake up and stop their extreme privacy stance.
    Enough Sog - you seriously need to get some help! Your obsession with Tim Cook is worrying.

    BTW I do give 2 sheets about privacy.
    netmagelostkiwirevenantmagman1979ration albaconstanglolliverwatto_cobraicoco3
  • Reply 11 of 49
    sog35 said:
    avon b7 said:
    It doesn't matter if users value it or not. That's the least of it. As a fundamental right, it is there and rightly so.

     sog35 said:
    avon b7 said:
    sog35 said:
    good.

    I'm sick and tired of Tim Cook's stance on privacy.

    The hell with privacy. The truth is 99% of the population don't care about privacy. They just want a good product at a good price.

    Its time for Apple to go head first into Advertising and Data collection ala Facebook/Google.

    But one of Cook's pillars is privacy, so he would have egg whites all over his face.

    That's why Cook needs to be replaced with a savy, practical, and ruthless CEO.  Cook is more fit to be a CEO of a non-profit or charity organization. His stance on privacy has literally costed Apple HUNDREDS of BILLIONS in profits.

    Cook has all these pie in the sky ideals - privacy, diversity, gay rights, ect. Fine and dandy. But a CEO of the worlds most powerful company should not have its hands tied because of following those ideals. Cook should keep his personal values SEPERATE from the corporations values. All Apple should be about is providing the BEST PRODUCTS and SERVICES.......period.  If this means less diversity, less privacy, ect. so be it.
    Personal and Corporate values may overlap. Privacy is a fundamental right. Protecting privacy isn't only a question of values but legislation. The problem is that legislation will always trail technological advances. Just look at the problem of drones and privacy. 
    But Apple customers don't give 2 sheets about privacy.

    90-95% of iOS users either are on Facebook or use Google services. That is a FACT.

    Yet Apple sacrifices literally TENS of BILLIONS of dollars because of their ridiculous stance on privacy.

    IMO, I'd rather have Apple be the custodian of my information than Google/Facebook. I want Apple to start their versions of Facebook/Google so they can rake in BILLIONS and also keep that data away from Google/FB.

    Bottom line is people will be using social media and sites that require data collection. With or without Apple. So it makes ZERO sense for Apple to be stubborn and not participate. 

    Cook is actually hurting iOS customers because he is forcing them to use Google/FB instead of an Apple run equilvelent.

    Cook is stuck with 1995 thinking. Data collecting is not evil. Adversting is not evil. As long as the data is kept safe and anonymous its fine. People are willing to sacrifice some privacy for awesome services that make their life more productive and enjoyable. Its time for Apple to wake up and stop their extreme privacy s
    I never said Apple should break the law regarding privacy

    But they should remove their extreme privacy stance.

    iOS users have spoken. They don't care about privacy aka 90-95% of iOS users use Facebook/Google
    Using Facebook/Google and caring about privacy are not mutually exclusive.  

    I use Facebook sometimes, I have to - everyone I know is there.  It doesn't mean I can't care about privacy.  I do very much.  When presented with a choice, I use iOS because of many things but one of those things is that I can enjoy all the advantages of the latest technology without Apple knowing my every move.  I am the customer, not the corporations looking to advertise. That's important to me, and I suspect the majority of Apple customers.
    netmagelostkiwiration albaconstanglolliverwatto_cobraargonauticoco3
  • Reply 12 of 49
    wigbywigby Posts: 689member
    sog35 said:
    good.

    I'm sick and tired of Tim Cook's stance on privacy.

    The hell with privacy. The truth is 99% of the population don't care about privacy. They just want a good product at a good price.

    Its time for Apple to go head first into Advertising and Data collection ala Facebook/Google.

    But one of Cook's pillars is privacy, so he would have egg whites all over his face.

    That's why Cook needs to be replaced with a savy, practical, and ruthless CEO.  Cook is more fit to be a CEO of a non-profit or charity organization. His stance on privacy has literally costed Apple HUNDREDS of BILLIONS in profits.

    Cook has all these pie in the sky ideals - privacy, diversity, gay rights, ect. Fine and dandy. But a CEO of the worlds most powerful company should not have its hands tied because of following those ideals. Cook should keep his personal values SEPERATE from the corporations values. All Apple should be about is providing the BEST PRODUCTS and SERVICES.......period.  If this means less diversity, less privacy, ect. so be it.
    First we thought you were being serious. Then we thought you were being sarcastic. Now you don't want to know what we think of you.

    FYI - Steve Jobs had the exact same stance on privacy.
    minglok50taniwharoundaboutnowmagman1979baconstanglolliverwatto_cobraargonaut
  • Reply 13 of 49
    wigbywigby Posts: 689member

    sog35 said:
    minglok50 said:
    sog35 said:
    avon b7 said:
    sog35 said:
    good.

    I'm sick and tired of Tim Cook's stance on privacy.

    The hell with privacy. The truth is 99% of the population don't care about privacy. They just want a good product at a good price.

    Its time for Apple to go head first into Advertising and Data collection ala Facebook/Google.

    But one of Cook's pillars is privacy, so he would have egg whites all over his face.

    That's why Cook needs to be replaced with a savy, practical, and ruthless CEO.  Cook is more fit to be a CEO of a non-profit or charity organization. His stance on privacy has literally costed Apple HUNDREDS of BILLIONS in profits.

    Cook has all these pie in the sky ideals - privacy, diversity, gay rights, ect. Fine and dandy. But a CEO of the worlds most powerful company should not have its hands tied because of following those ideals. Cook should keep his personal values SEPERATE from the corporations values. All Apple should be about is providing the BEST PRODUCTS and SERVICES.......period.  If this means less diversity, less privacy, ect. so be it.
    Personal and Corporate values may overlap. Privacy is a fundamental right. Protecting privacy isn't only a question of values but legislation. The problem is that legislation will always trail technological advances. Just look at the problem of drones and privacy. 
    But Apple customers don't give 2 sheets about privacy.

    90-95% of iOS users either are on Facebook or use Google services. That is a FACT.

    Yet Apple sacrifices literally TENS of BILLIONS of dollars because of their ridiculous stance on privacy.

    IMO, I'd rather have Apple be the custodian of my information than Google/Facebook. I want Apple to start their versions of Facebook/Google so they can rake in BILLIONS and also keep that data away from Google/FB.

    Bottom line is people will be using social media and sites that require data collection. With or without Apple. So it makes ZERO sense for Apple to be stubborn and not participate. 

    Cook is actually hurting iOS customers because he is forcing them to use Google/FB instead of an Apple run equilvelent.

    Cook is stuck with 1995 thinking. Data collecting is not evil. Adversting is not evil. As long as the data is kept safe and anonymous its fine. People are willing to sacrifice some privacy for awesome services that make their life more productive and enjoyable. Its time for Apple to wake up and stop their extreme privacy stance.
    Enough Sog - you seriously need to get some help! Your obsession with Tim Cook is worrying.

    BTW I do give 2 sheets about privacy.
    and that's why you would be able to opt out even if Apple started a Google/Facebook clone service

    Thats my point. Give customers a CHOICE.  90-95% of customers are willing to sacrifice some privacy for a better more convient service.

    Instead Cook in is extreme stance is making the choice for a billion users.
    Google and Facebook already allow opt-out of their services. The hardware makers have all caught up to Apple for now. What would distinguish Apple from their competitors in your customer choice fantasy? Higher prices?
    lostkiwibaconstang
  • Reply 14 of 49
    sog35 said:
    avon b7 said:
    sog35 said:
    good.

    I'm sick and tired of Tim Cook's stance on privacy.

    The hell with privacy. The truth is 99% of the population don't care about privacy. They just want a good product at a good price.

    Its time for Apple to go head first into Advertising and Data collection ala Facebook/Google.

    But one of Cook's pillars is privacy, so he would have egg whites all over his face.

    That's why Cook needs to be replaced with a savy, practical, and ruthless CEO.  Cook is more fit to be a CEO of a non-profit or charity organization. His stance on privacy has literally costed Apple HUNDREDS of BILLIONS in profits.

    Cook has all these pie in the sky ideals - privacy, diversity, gay rights, ect. Fine and dandy. But a CEO of the worlds most powerful company should not have its hands tied because of following those ideals. Cook should keep his personal values SEPERATE from the corporations values. All Apple should be about is providing the BEST PRODUCTS and SERVICES.......period.  If this means less diversity, less privacy, ect. so be it.
    Personal and Corporate values may overlap. Privacy is a fundamental right. Protecting privacy isn't only a question of values but legislation. The problem is that legislation will always trail technological advances. Just look at the problem of drones and privacy. 
    But Apple customers don't give 2 sheets about privacy.

    90-95% of iOS users either are on Facebook or use Google services. That is a FACT.

    Yet Apple sacrifices literally TENS of BILLIONS of dollars because of their ridiculous stance on privacy.

    IMO, I'd rather have Apple be the custodian of my information than Google/Facebook. I want Apple to start their versions of Facebook/Google so they can rake in BILLIONS and also keep that data away from Google/FB.

    Bottom line is people will be using social media and sites that require data collection. With or without Apple. So it makes ZERO sense for Apple to be stubborn and not participate. 

    Cook is actually hurting iOS customers because he is forcing them to use Google/FB instead of an Apple run equilvelent.

    Cook is stuck with 1995 thinking. Data collecting is not evil. Adversting is not evil. As long as the data is kept safe and anonymous its fine. People are willing to sacrifice some privacy for awesome services that make their life more productive and enjoyable. Its time for Apple to wake up and stop their extreme privacy stance.
    Where do you get your facts and stats ? Apple client and shareholder here and I respectfully and completely disagree with your pov. You're obviously entitled to your opinion and if you are really convinced that Cook needs to go, then buy enough shares to go to the next shareholder meeting and vote him out.
    edited November 2016 ration albaconstangwatto_cobraargonaut
  • Reply 15 of 49
    So msog35 said:
    But Apple customers don't give 2 sheets about privacy.

    90-95% of iOS users either are on Facebook or use Google services. That is a FACT.

    Yet Apple sacrifices literally TENS of BILLIONS of dollars because of their ridiculous stance on privacy.

    IMO, I'd rather have Apple be the custodian of my information than Google/Facebook. I want Apple to start their versions of Facebook/Google so they can rake in BILLIONS and also keep that data away from Google/FB.

    Bottom line is people will be using social media and sites that require data collection. With or without Apple. So it makes ZERO sense for Apple to be stubborn and not participate. 

    Cook is actually hurting iOS customers because he is forcing them to use Google/FB instead of an Apple run equilvelent.

    Cook is stuck with 1995 thinking. Data collecting is not evil. Adversting is not evil. As long as the data is kept safe and anonymous its fine. People are willing to sacrifice some privacy for awesome services that make their life more productive and enjoyable. Its time for Apple to wake up and stop their extreme privacy stance.
    This is speculation whether you put "FACT" in caps or not. How do you know 90-95% are on either service? Speaking personally, I wouldn't doubt it's the vast majority but to say it's fact with a broad claim doesn't help your case. Nor do any of the other claims - 10s of billions, social media that *require* data collection, hurting iOS customers??

    Cook claims that they won't be involved with the process of collecting this type of data, that when it's a free service YOU are the product. Apple's values lie in a different direction. It's tilting after windmills to insist that they make a change. Your "facts" and argument don't make sense.
    lostkiwiration albaconstangwatto_cobra
  • Reply 16 of 49
    Rayz2016Rayz2016 Posts: 4,591member
    sog35 said:
    sog35 said:

    This is also why its so silly that Tim Cook is so strongly pushing privacy. NO ONE CARES. NO ONE. 
    ...
    Because Apple users have spoken loud and clear they DONT CARE ABOUT PRIVACY.
    Until they do. And therein is the rub.
    90-95% of iOS users use either Facebook, Google Services, or both.

    iOS users have spoken loud and clear: WE DONT CARE ABOUT PRIVACY
    It's probably more accurate to say that 90-95% of users don't know they're giving up their privacy, since we're back to pulling made-up figures out of the air. 

    Seriously, is there nothing you wouldn't give up for your portfolio? The importance you attach to your money (to the exclusion of everything else) is quite disturbing. 
    lostkiwimagman1979ration albaconstangwatto_cobraargonaut
  • Reply 17 of 49
    roakeroake Posts: 638member
    sog35 said:
    avon b7 said:
    It doesn't matter if users value it or not. That's the least of it. As a fundamental right, it is there and rightly so.

     sog35 said:
    avon b7 said:
    sog35 said:
    good.

    I'm sick and tired of Tim Cook's stance on privacy.

    The hell with privacy. The truth is 99% of the population don't care about privacy. They just want a good product at a good price.

    Its time for Apple to go head first into Advertising and Data collection ala Facebook/Google.

    But one of Cook's pillars is privacy, so he would have egg whites all over his face.

    That's why Cook needs to be replaced with a savy, practical, and ruthless CEO.  Cook is more fit to be a CEO of a non-profit or charity organization. His stance on privacy has literally costed Apple HUNDREDS of BILLIONS in profits.

    Cook has all these pie in the sky ideals - privacy, diversity, gay rights, ect. Fine and dandy. But a CEO of the worlds most powerful company should not have its hands tied because of following those ideals. Cook should keep his personal values SEPERATE from the corporations values. All Apple should be about is providing the BEST PRODUCTS and SERVICES.......period.  If this means less diversity, less privacy, ect. so be it.
    Personal and Corporate values may overlap. Privacy is a fundamental right. Protecting privacy isn't only a question of values but legislation. The problem is that legislation will always trail technological advances. Just look at the problem of drones and privacy. 
    But Apple customers don't give 2 sheets about privacy.

    90-95% of iOS users either are on Facebook or use Google services. That is a FACT.

    Yet Apple sacrifices literally TENS of BILLIONS of dollars because of their ridiculous stance on privacy.

    IMO, I'd rather have Apple be the custodian of my information than Google/Facebook. I want Apple to start their versions of Facebook/Google so they can rake in BILLIONS and also keep that data away from Google/FB.

    Bottom line is people will be using social media and sites that require data collection. With or without Apple. So it makes ZERO sense for Apple to be stubborn and not participate. 

    Cook is actually hurting iOS customers because he is forcing them to use Google/FB instead of an Apple run equilvelent.

    Cook is stuck with 1995 thinking. Data collecting is not evil. Adversting is not evil. As long as the data is kept safe and anonymous its fine. People are willing to sacrifice some privacy for awesome services that make their life more productive and enjoyable. Its time for Apple to wake up and stop their extreme privacy s
    I never said Apple should break the law regarding privacy

    But they should remove their extreme privacy stance.

    iOS users have spoken. They don't care about privacy aka 90-95% of iOS users use Facebook/Google
    SOG35 - It's happened.  You have lost your mind.  You need to seek some professional help.
    cwoloszynskiwaverboyrhinotufflostkiwiavon b7magman1979ration albaconstangwatto_cobraargonaut
  • Reply 18 of 49
    sog35 said:
    sog35 said:
    avon b7 said:
    It doesn't matter if users value it or not. That's the least of it. As a fundamental right, it is there and rightly so.

     sog35 said:
    avon b7 said:
    sog35 said:
    good.

    I'm sick and tired of Tim Cook's stance on privacy.

    The hell with privacy. The truth is 99% of the population don't care about privacy. They just want a good product at a good price.

    Its time for Apple to go head first into Advertising and Data collection ala Facebook/Google.

    But one of Cook's pillars is privacy, so he would have egg whites all over his face.

    That's why Cook needs to be replaced with a savy, practical, and ruthless CEO.  Cook is more fit to be a CEO of a non-profit or charity organization. His stance on privacy has literally costed Apple HUNDREDS of BILLIONS in profits.

    Cook has all these pie in the sky ideals - privacy, diversity, gay rights, ect. Fine and dandy. But a CEO of the worlds most powerful company should not have its hands tied because of following those ideals. Cook should keep his personal values SEPERATE from the corporations values. All Apple should be about is providing the BEST PRODUCTS and SERVICES.......period.  If this means less diversity, less privacy, ect. so be it.
    Personal and Corporate values may overlap. Privacy is a fundamental right. Protecting privacy isn't only a question of values but legislation. The problem is that legislation will always trail technological advances. Just look at the problem of drones and privacy. 
    But Apple customers don't give 2 sheets about privacy.

    90-95% of iOS users either are on Facebook or use Google services. That is a FACT.

    Yet Apple sacrifices literally TENS of BILLIONS of dollars because of their ridiculous stance on privacy.

    IMO, I'd rather have Apple be the custodian of my information than Google/Facebook. I want Apple to start their versions of Facebook/Google so they can rake in BILLIONS and also keep that data away from Google/FB.

    Bottom line is people will be using social media and sites that require data collection. With or without Apple. So it makes ZERO sense for Apple to be stubborn and not participate. 

    Cook is actually hurting iOS customers because he is forcing them to use Google/FB instead of an Apple run equilvelent.

    Cook is stuck with 1995 thinking. Data collecting is not evil. Adversting is not evil. As long as the data is kept safe and anonymous its fine. People are willing to sacrifice some privacy for awesome services that make their life more productive and enjoyable. Its time for Apple to wake up and stop their extreme privacy s
    I never said Apple should break the law regarding privacy

    But they should remove their extreme privacy stance.

    iOS users have spoken. They don't care about privacy aka 90-95% of iOS users use Facebook/Google
    Using Facebook/Google and caring about privacy are not mutually exclusive.  

    I use Facebook sometimes, I have to - everyone I know is there.  It doesn't mean I can't care about privacy.  I do very much.  When presented with a choice, I use iOS because of many things but one of those things is that I can enjoy all the advantages of the latest technology without Apple knowing my every move.  I am the customer, not the corporations looking to advertise. That's important to me, and I suspect the majority of Apple customers.
    You are in the minority.

    But if Apple did start a Facebook/Google like service you could do the same thing. Opt out of the data collecting features.

    I and most Apple users probably would feel more comfortable with Apple collecting our data then Facebook/Google. That's why its so important that Apple start these services (adversting, data collection, social). Because now we don't have a choice. Its either give your data to FB/Google or be left out. I want a third choice, and that's Apple being the custodian of my data.
    How do you know I am in the minority?  What empirical research have you done.  I'd love to see it.

    Your argument is illogical, but to debate with your train of thought: Apple do collect your data, of course they do.  They just anonymise and/or encrypt it and don't, unless the service specifically requires it, tie it back to you.  How do you think they recommend news to you in News, and new artists to you in Music?  

    However Facebook are not the same as Apple.  Apple are not a social network, nor do they try to be.  Facebook are.  Google offer a device to customers, and a platform for other OEMs to build devices.  Does Android collect a lot about you? Yes.  More than iOS?  Yes.  Does it have to to provide better services? No.  Google's choice has been to collect everything they can.  As they are an advertising company it is built into the corporate DNA.  It takes the likes of the EU to put them in their place with regard to data privacy.  Apple are a hardware/software company so it's not in their corporate DNA to collect and use all the data about you they can.  

    With regard to your other points: Apple did have an advertising unit. It went away because they couldn't offer such invasive profiling as Google, Facebook and increasingly Snap can.  That's not bad news because Apple is not an advertising company so why do something they don't want to do.  They aren't a conglomerate.  They write software and design hardware.

    Apple collects massive amounts of data regarding your behaviour.  Read about their approach which guarantees your privacy in other articles recently.

    All in all, do I want to be advertised to? No.  What has that got to do with the device I use?  It shouldn't.  However, as I'm the customer I choose to pay for my device, not have the OS development underwritten by advertising revenue.  This is my choice, and I do have a choice.  Whether I run Facebook or Google services on top of this device is another choice.  Do I like them profiling me against all those little 'Like' buttons on EVERY web page in existence.  No.  So I block them, like so many other people - with an ad blocker.  The same for those Google + buttons, and Google's ad network.  All blocked.  I am exercising my right to privacy as best as I am able.  I can't think of any Google services which I must use because they are significantly better than non-Google services which give me more privacy.  Not one.  My privacy is in good shape and I'm missing nothing by insisting on it.
    lostkiwiwatto_cobra
  • Reply 19 of 49
    sog35 said:

    Cook is stuck with 1995 thinking. Data collecting is not evil. Adversting is not evil. As long as the data is kept safe and anonymous its fine. People are willing to sacrifice some privacy for awesome services that make their life more productive and enjoyable. Its time for Apple to wake up and stop their extreme privacy stance.
    !00% wrong.  Data collection is EVIL. Just look at what the likes of Google and Amazon do with your data.
    I made a decision years ago to never sign up to any Google service NOT to any Social Media site. The less they know about you the better.
    If you google for me using my name, you find other people with my name but not me. That means I'm not the product.
    There is a reason that the Military uses the term 'Need to know'.
    Advertising is also evil. It sets out to make you buy stuff that you don't want or can't afford using a weakness in the human psyche. And yes I did spend 4 years working for an Ad company. IT was there that I reached my opinion about it.
    If I get a 'targetted' advert (I'm looking at you Amazon) then I ignore it and buy something else (or nothing at all).
    So Sog35 why don't you leave this place and go over to the Google place where you will be amongst friends and you can slag off Apple to your hearts content and get upvoted for it. You obviously hate everything about Apple and have done for some time. time to quit.

    lostkiwimagman1979watto_cobra
  • Reply 20 of 49
    sog35 said:
    sog35 said:

    This is also why its so silly that Tim Cook is so strongly pushing privacy. NO ONE CARES. NO ONE. 
    ...
    Because Apple users have spoken loud and clear they DONT CARE ABOUT PRIVACY.
    Until they do. And therein is the rub.
    90-95% of iOS users use either Facebook, Google Services, or both.

    iOS users have spoken loud and clear: WE DONT CARE ABOUT PRIVACY
    In order for you logic to work, you have to assume that everyone has an educated opinion on privacy and how they personally want to handle it. If this is in fact the case then, by your logic, people would be choosing to abandon iOS and go with Android. But that's not what is happening. Many people don't know any better which is why they are still buying Apple products. In other words if iOS users have really 'spoken loud and clear: WE DONT CARE ABOUT PRIVACY' then they would be jumping ship and aligning their digital lives with a company that reflects their views and that is simply not happening, at least yet.

    I personally am one of those that are with Apple for not only their high standards but their also their stance on Privacy and in no way want Apple to relax their stance on it.
    lostkiwibaconstangwatto_cobra
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