No touchscreens coming to pro Macs, says Apple's Phil Schiller

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Comments

  • Reply 41 of 67
    sog35 said:
    Is there any evidence the Surface Studio is selling? 
    There is ZERO evidence.

    I have no idea why AI had to insert their option by saying: 

    "Microsoft has had some success with the Surface Studio..."

    There is absolutely ZERO proof that the Surface Studio is doing anything except collecting dust in Microsoft stores.
    Yes, but as an expensive "halo product" it's meant to move inventory of other Windows PCs and make you feel better about Microsoft in general. Lots of people talk about how great the Surface Studio is, and that's kind of the point of its existence. It's a niche computer at best. Most PC snobs will read PC benchmarking websites and build their own PC from parts they ordered off newegg, complete with red and blue LED light strips and ATX cases designed after stealth fighters, then overclock the thing until they feel good about themselves. They're not buying this thing. Then they'll join these forums and say Apple should be copying Surface Studio, because they "know" about "pros" want.
    watto_cobra
  • Reply 42 of 67
    danvmdanvm Posts: 791member
    sog35 said:
    danvm said:
    sog35 said:
    danvm said:
    macxpress said:
    Is there any evidence the Surface Studio is selling? 
    Is there any evidence that any Microsoft computer selling? Touchscreens on a desktop are the biggest gimmick I've ever seen. I would almost go as far as saying touchscreen on a laptop are a gimmick too. 
    I haven't read a negative review of the Surface Studio yet, so it looks like that a usable desktop touchscreen is possible.  But it looks like Apple wasn't ready to make it happen. 
    All the reviews of the Surface Studio say the same thing: fast computer, beautiful screen,..............but ridiculously expensive. 
    Do you know that people say the same the same thing from Apple devices?

    And only worth it for a very very very small niche of the population AKA graphic designers and artists............who have $$$$ to burn.
    Yes, your are right.  Looks like the Surface Studio is worth the money for those users.  At least someone is innovating in the creative PC market, but too bad isn't Apple. 
    Apple devices are obviously not 'ridiculously expensive' since Apple sold about ONE BILLION of them the last 4 years. The Surface Studio? They would be lucky to sell a few thousand a year. So no Apple products are not ridiculously expensive. NEXT.
    Yes, Apple is more expensive (and sometimes "'ridiculously expensive") than other devices.  And you know what?  I see no issue with it, when devices are high quality.  And that applies to Apple devices, MS devices, Lenovo Thinkpad, HP Z Workstations and many other devices. 
    Worth the money to a few thousand niche users means absolutely ZERO to Apple. Whats the point of innovation if only a few thousand have any use for such a device? NEXT.

    I'll be worried if it means nothing to Apple.  Ignoring how competition is ahead of you in innovation in the tech market is very dangerous.

  • Reply 43 of 67
    brucemcbrucemc Posts: 1,532member
    sog35 said:
    Is there any evidence the Surface Studio is selling? 
    There is ZERO evidence.

    I have no idea why AI had to insert their option by saying: 

    "Microsoft has had some success with the Surface Studio..."

    There is absolutely ZERO proof that the Surface Studio is doing anything except collecting dust in Microsoft stores.
    Yes, but as an expensive "halo product" it's meant to move inventory of other Windows PCs and make you feel better about Microsoft in general. Lots of people talk about how great the Surface Studio is, and that's kind of the point of its existence. It's a niche computer at best. Most PC snobs will read PC benchmarking websites and build their own PC from parts they ordered off newegg, complete with red and blue LED light strips and ATX cases designed after stealth fighters, then overclock the thing until they feel good about themselves. They're not buying this thing. Then they'll join these forums and say Apple should be copying Surface Studio, because they "know" about "pros" want.
    Not sure Surface Studio would be considered a halo product - meaning someone buys a Studio and then invests in other MS products (Surface tablet I suppose).  In my view, a halo product is one which sells in larger volume than the product it helps to sell - like the iPod to the Mac - and upon using that product becomes more interested in other products from that company.

    Studio is more like a showcase product - meant to generate press/buzz, but not going to move the finances at all.  This press/buzz can help from a marketing perspective.
    watto_cobra
  • Reply 44 of 67
    Rayz2016 said:
    I think Apple would rather expand the touchpad/magic pad idea; make it into a screen that can act as as touchpad/keyboard/drawing tablet.
    This is what I've been saying.  What if that rumor floating around about a new 10.5" iPad Pro (with OLED display) is actually a Magic Touch Board?  Combine the trackpad and keyboard into a full touch surface for desktop Macs where basically the current Magic Touch Bar takes over the entire keyboard.  Current keyboard commands that power users know but lots of people don't could now be dynamic software buttons (surfacing hidden features, empowering the masses, kind of what Apple is all about).  Make the keyboard faux clicky with some fancy pre-touch sensing so that when you strike a software key you get taptic feedback ala the current trackpad.  This kind of thing would also open the door for Apple Pencil support on Macs and all sorts of rad multi-touch interfaces for Pro apps and such.  And introducing it as a desktop Mac accessory would allow for people to still have their favorite real keyboard hooked up as I'm sure there will be much gnashing of teeth about a full on software keyboard and the elimination of keyboard shortcuts.
    watto_cobra
  • Reply 45 of 67
    gunner1954gunner1954 Posts: 141member
    sog35 said:
    Good. Touchscreens on desktops are idiotic.

    Who the hell wants to stretch their arm to a vertical screen. DUMB.


    A better solution would be to 'tether' (via USB or WiFi) an iPad Pro to an iMac Pro and use the iPad and pen combination as an input device, with the added benefit that what you see on the screen of the iMac is also be on the screen of the iPad.

    OR is there already a solution as I mentioned?
    watto_cobra
  • Reply 46 of 67
    jorgie said:
    minglok50 said:
    sog35 said:
    danvm said:
    macxpress said:
    Is there any evidence the Surface Studio is selling? 
    Is there any evidence that any Microsoft computer selling? Touchscreens on a desktop are the biggest gimmick I've ever seen. I would almost go as far as saying touchscreen on a laptop are a gimmick too. 
    I haven't read a negative review of the Surface Studio yet, so it looks like that a usable desktop touchscreen is possible.  But it looks like Apple wasn't ready to make it happen. 
    All the reviews of the Surface Studio say the same thing: fast computer, beautiful screen,..............but ridiculously expensive.  And only worth it for a very very very small niche of the population AKA graphic designers and artists............who have $$$$ to burn.
    The majority of graphic designers use Macs, so the Surface Studio wouldn't be an option.
    That's BS... Once you launch the Adobe product of choice, the OS just doesn't matter.
    Why is that BS? All the agencies I freelance at use Macs for creative design so from my experience it is true.
    Rayz2016watto_cobra
  • Reply 47 of 67
    jorgie said:
    minglok50 said:
    sog35 said:
    danvm said:
    macxpress said:
    Is there any evidence the Surface Studio is selling? 
    Is there any evidence that any Microsoft computer selling? Touchscreens on a desktop are the biggest gimmick I've ever seen. I would almost go as far as saying touchscreen on a laptop are a gimmick too. 
    I haven't read a negative review of the Surface Studio yet, so it looks like that a usable desktop touchscreen is possible.  But it looks like Apple wasn't ready to make it happen. 
    All the reviews of the Surface Studio say the same thing: fast computer, beautiful screen,..............but ridiculously expensive.  And only worth it for a very very very small niche of the population AKA graphic designers and artists............who have $$$$ to burn.
    The majority of graphic designers use Macs, so the Surface Studio wouldn't be an option.
    That's BS... Once you launch the Adobe product of choice, the OS just doesn't matter.
    I just checked your comment history and you have absolutely nothing positive to say about Apple so I guess we'll always disagree.

    Rayz2016watto_cobra
  • Reply 48 of 67
    SpamSandwichSpamSandwich Posts: 31,334member
    Know what architects, designers and other professionals used for decades that was like a giant touchscreen? A drafting table. There's some value to the concept of making a drafting table-touchscreen computer and hopefully Apple will not completely abandon or avoid it. Perhaps that kind of configuration would be better addressed by an AR solution these days... I don't really know.
    edited April 2017 mattinoz
  • Reply 49 of 67
    StrangeDaysStrangeDays Posts: 8,304member
    Know what architects, designers and other professionals used for decades that was like a giant touchscreen? A drafting table. There's some value to the concept of making a drafting table-touchscreen computer and hopefully Apple will not completely abandon or avoid it.
    What sort of realistic sales do you believe there are for drafting-table-sized computers? Sounds ultra niche to me, and not at all Apple's bag. 
    edited April 2017 watto_cobra
  • Reply 50 of 67
    danvmdanvm Posts: 791member
    danvm said:
    mknelson said:
    danvm said: I haven't read a negative review of the Surface Studio yet, so it looks like that a usable desktop touchscreen is possible.  But it looks like Apple wasn't ready to make it happen.  
    Usable is one thing - many graphics/photo professionals are borderline paranoid about glare/reflections for good reason and fingerprints and smudges are worse!
    iMac's have reflective screen for years, including the 5K model, and many professionals still use them without issues.  Regarding fingerprints and smudges, that's part of a touchscreen, same as iPads, and people still use them.  But I hope both issues get better in future versions.
    There is a world of difference between moving an iPad screen a few degrees to get rid of the reflections to possibly constantly moving a desktop screen. TBH, my iPad Mini has an anti-glare screen on it and my 4K monitor is Matte so I don't have issues with reflections on it. If I got an iMac then I would put an anti-glare screen on it just because of where I'd use it.
    If you noticed, I use iMac's as an example of PC's with reflective screens.  I just mention iPads when talking about smudges and fingerprints. 



  • Reply 51 of 67
    danvmdanvm Posts: 791member
    minglok50 said:
    danvm said:
    minglok50 said:
    danvm said:
    minglok50 said:

    Is there any evidence the Surface Studio is selling? 
    I don't have any sales numbers because where I live (Canada) you can't even buy them yet - only pre-order.  That said, it looks like a wonderful device, a fantastic display. Really, the "ultimate" Surface Studio would be for them to remove the computer bits, and for it to only be a display.  And then you plug it into a PC if your choice.  Then, you can build a monumentally powerful computer that isn't as thermally constrained, and that you can upgrade from time to time.

    Maybe even write the necessary drivers for macOS.  For example, when developing iOS apps, wouldn't it be nice if you could use your fingers and have the iOS Simulator accept touch input?  I know I would love that!  Pen input too!  You could debug your Apple Pencil specific code on your Mac!

    Seriously, I wish Cupertino would fire up their photocopiers.  If Apple could make the iMac more like the Surface Studio, it would be a better product.
    What evidence do you have in saying the Surface Studio is a better machine to an iMac? As someone who works in the graphic design industry the thought of using a touchscreen monitor makes little sense. How many fingerprints would be over the screen when you clearly need a smudge free display to create work.
    If smudge is an issue to create work, how does people are doing it in their Surface devices and iPad Pro?
    I don't know any designers/production artworker who use a Surface or iPad Pro to do their daily work so your point isn't relevant this time. Even if designers use laptops, they are usually hooked up to a larger display.
    You'll find in Google many people who use iPads and Surface for art work.  Here are two examples,

    http://appleinsider.com/articles/16/08/09/stranger-things-poster-created-using-apples-ipad-pro-and-apple-pencil
    https://www.penny-arcade.com/news/post/2016/10/26/the-surface-studio

    And I haven't seen how smudge limits their creativity or workflow.  Still, I would love to see smudge disappear, and I hope someone develops something to solve this issue. 
    I think you're mistaking creating art and a Production Artworker setting up design files for print. The latter relates to the graphic design industry which I have worked in for 19 years. My job cannot be done on a Surface or iPad.
    Looks like I misunderstood.  Thanks for clarifying. 
    watto_cobra
  • Reply 52 of 67
    palegolaspalegolas Posts: 1,283member
    Touch perhaps isn't registering.. but Apple Pencil does.
    SpamSandwichwatto_cobra
  • Reply 53 of 67
    darkvaderdarkvader Posts: 329member
    Is there any evidence the Surface Studio is selling? 
    I don't have any sales numbers because where I live (Canada) you can't even buy them yet - only pre-order.  That said, it looks like a wonderful device, a fantastic display. Really, the "ultimate" Surface Studio would be for them to remove the computer bits, and for it to only be a display.  And then you plug it into a PC if your choice.  Then, you can build a monumentally powerful computer that isn't as thermally constrained, and that you can upgrade from time to time.

    Maybe even write the necessary drivers for macOS.  For example, when developing iOS apps, wouldn't it be nice if you could use your fingers and have the iOS Simulator accept touch input?  I know I would love that!  Pen input too!  You could debug your Apple Pencil specific code on your Mac!

    Seriously, I wish Cupertino would fire up their photocopiers.  If Apple could make the iMac more like the Surface Studio, it would be a better product.
    While the Surface is a horrible piece of garbage just like everything else out of MicroSloth, what you want is already here, and has been for years.

    You want a Wacom Cintiq.  http://www.wacom.com/en-us/products/pen-displays

    There you go, hook it up to whatever Mac you want, available now.
    watto_cobra
  • Reply 54 of 67
    mattinozmattinoz Posts: 1,124member
    dewme said:
    Re:"Maybe even write the necessary drivers for macOS.  For example, when developing iOS apps, wouldn't it be nice if you could use your fingers and have the iOS Simulator accept touch input?  I know I would love that!  Pen input too!  You could debug your Apple Pencil specific code on your Mac!"

    This seems like a reasonable use case, but overly narrow and insufficient to justify making a major change to an entire product line. It likely doesn't meet the 80/20 rule or qualify as an essential use case, but it is one of the few cases that would benefit from touch input. Other cases that fall into this category include kiosks and POS systems. However, the iPad product line, and especially the iPad Pro, is an even better fit for kiosks/POS use cases. I'm surprised that a tethered version of the Apple Pencil and Touch ID reader are not being used in POS applications already instead of current pin pad devices.

    As far as the iPad Pro with keyboard, I agree that the current combination of keyboard plus touchscreen feels clumsy at times. The more I use this combination the more I realize what's missing from the iPad Pro keyboard for these scenarios is a trackpad. In other words, to make the iPad Pro feel like a true notebook I'd want to have a trackpad. And while you're at it you may as well also throw in a Touch Bar. That way I never have to leave the keyboard to touch the screen! So what I'm really saying is that the optimal notebook experience is achieved when you obviate its need for a touch screen. Likewise, the optimal iPad touch experience is achieved when you obviate its need for a keyboard. Any other combination is a clumsy compromise.

    Hmm, maybe these Apple designers are on to something.....
    Still that leaves Apples new line of Pro Displays that could be anywhere from now till and the shipping of the modMacPro.
    One of those could be a touch based standless option designed to be used flat on the desk or for Kiosk installations.
    Certainly more flexible in marketing terms. Given it could be used with iMac as a second screen, MacMini as Surface studio competitor, Mac pro drive a couple of them and some monster size HDR 4K+ monitors and you have a fully flexible control deck for any number of hands on pro workflows. 
    watto_cobra
  • Reply 55 of 67
    I find some of the Apple apologists arguments interesting.

    It boils down to this: "You professionals aren't important enough for Apple to make products that fit your needs.  You're not mass market enough."

    Apple even said that XCode development was the #1 "pro" activity, and I imagine much of that development is iOS development - which is touch-focused. Having a Mac that understands touch interaction may only be of interest to developers.  But if you're a developer and the message Apple is sending to you is "you're not important enough for us to care", maybe we should be taking our business elsewhere.

    I find that sentiment infuriating, especially given Apple's past where they absolutely cared about the professional market.  And if Apple wants better iOS Apps that let their iPads replace laptops, maybe they should help make developers more productive.

  • Reply 56 of 67
    Rayz2016Rayz2016 Posts: 4,730member
    danvm said:
    minglok50 said:
    danvm said:
    minglok50 said:
    danvm said:
    minglok50 said:

    Is there any evidence the Surface Studio is selling? 
    I don't have any sales numbers because where I live (Canada) you can't even buy them yet - only pre-order.  That said, it looks like a wonderful device, a fantastic display. Really, the "ultimate" Surface Studio would be for them to remove the computer bits, and for it to only be a display.  And then you plug it into a PC if your choice.  Then, you can build a monumentally powerful computer that isn't as thermally constrained, and that you can upgrade from time to time.

    Maybe even write the necessary drivers for macOS.  For example, when developing iOS apps, wouldn't it be nice if you could use your fingers and have the iOS Simulator accept touch input?  I know I would love that!  Pen input too!  You could debug your Apple Pencil specific code on your Mac!

    Seriously, I wish Cupertino would fire up their photocopiers.  If Apple could make the iMac more like the Surface Studio, it would be a better product.
    What evidence do you have in saying the Surface Studio is a better machine to an iMac? As someone who works in the graphic design industry the thought of using a touchscreen monitor makes little sense. How many fingerprints would be over the screen when you clearly need a smudge free display to create work.
    If smudge is an issue to create work, how does people are doing it in their Surface devices and iPad Pro?
    I don't know any designers/production artworker who use a Surface or iPad Pro to do their daily work so your point isn't relevant this time. Even if designers use laptops, they are usually hooked up to a larger display.
    You'll find in Google many people who use iPads and Surface for art work.  Here are two examples,

    http://appleinsider.com/articles/16/08/09/stranger-things-poster-created-using-apples-ipad-pro-and-apple-pencil
    https://www.penny-arcade.com/news/post/2016/10/26/the-surface-studio

    And I haven't seen how smudge limits their creativity or workflow.  Still, I would love to see smudge disappear, and I hope someone develops something to solve this issue. 
    I think you're mistaking creating art and a Production Artworker setting up design files for print. The latter relates to the graphic design industry which I have worked in for 19 years. My job cannot be done on a Surface or iPad.
    Looks like I misunderstood.  Thanks for clarifying. 
    Jesus wept, did someone … did someone actually apologise on the internet??

    Someone needs to interview this guy!
    watto_cobra
  • Reply 57 of 67
    Rayz2016Rayz2016 Posts: 4,730member
    Rayz2016 said:
    I think Apple would rather expand the touchpad/magic pad idea; make it into a screen that can act as as touchpad/keyboard/drawing tablet.
    But that's awful. I hate the disconnect when using my tablet to draw in OS X. What would be useful is a desktop with a stand that allows the user to rotate the whole thing downward to operate like a drafting table. Of course no one wants a vertical touchscreen, but who says it has to be when actually using it? Remember the versatility of the G4 iMac? I get that we're talking about a far more complex stand now, but if anyone can do it it'd be Apple. Rotate up for data consumption, rotate down for data production. You could even emulate a soundboard or video editing station in touchscreen mode. Re-skeuomorphize it! :p

    Didn't I say that this was a screen? I'd be suprised if Apple didn't mirror whatever you're drawing on the main screen. They can allow you to trace on the lower screen, or add grid lines to help with scale. The main screen wouldn't need control palette controls and wouldn't have your elbow in the way, so you can see the whole piece. 
    watto_cobra
  • Reply 58 of 67
    steveausteveau Posts: 242member
    xzu said:
    The Apple pencil is amazing, make it ubiquitous. 
    And add native handwriting recognition into iOS; that would make it doubly amazing.
    watto_cobra
  • Reply 59 of 67
    "Touch doesn't even register on the list of things pro users are interested in talking about,"
    All it will take is one vital new app to pop Phill's bubble. Then we can all watch Apple flap around and call another panic press huddle to explain how they are going to fix it in the 2019 computers. Can't innovate indeed.
    edited April 2017
  • Reply 60 of 67
    danvm said:
    minglok50 said:
    danvm said:
    minglok50 said:
    danvm said:
    minglok50 said:

    Is there any evidence the Surface Studio is selling? 
    I don't have any sales numbers because where I live (Canada) you can't even buy them yet - only pre-order.  That said, it looks like a wonderful device, a fantastic display. Really, the "ultimate" Surface Studio would be for them to remove the computer bits, and for it to only be a display.  And then you plug it into a PC if your choice.  Then, you can build a monumentally powerful computer that isn't as thermally constrained, and that you can upgrade from time to time.

    Maybe even write the necessary drivers for macOS.  For example, when developing iOS apps, wouldn't it be nice if you could use your fingers and have the iOS Simulator accept touch input?  I know I would love that!  Pen input too!  You could debug your Apple Pencil specific code on your Mac!

    Seriously, I wish Cupertino would fire up their photocopiers.  If Apple could make the iMac more like the Surface Studio, it would be a better product.
    What evidence do you have in saying the Surface Studio is a better machine to an iMac? As someone who works in the graphic design industry the thought of using a touchscreen monitor makes little sense. How many fingerprints would be over the screen when you clearly need a smudge free display to create work.
    If smudge is an issue to create work, how does people are doing it in their Surface devices and iPad Pro?
    I don't know any designers/production artworker who use a Surface or iPad Pro to do their daily work so your point isn't relevant this time. Even if designers use laptops, they are usually hooked up to a larger display.
    You'll find in Google many people who use iPads and Surface for art work.  Here are two examples,

    http://appleinsider.com/articles/16/08/09/stranger-things-poster-created-using-apples-ipad-pro-and-apple-pencil
    https://www.penny-arcade.com/news/post/2016/10/26/the-surface-studio

    And I haven't seen how smudge limits their creativity or workflow.  Still, I would love to see smudge disappear, and I hope someone develops something to solve this issue. 
    I think you're mistaking creating art and a Production Artworker setting up design files for print. The latter relates to the graphic design industry which I have worked in for 19 years. My job cannot be done on a Surface or iPad.
    Looks like I misunderstood.  Thanks for clarifying. 
    Not a problem – happy to have a good debate, even if we have opposing views
    watto_cobra
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