A very false narrative: Samsung Galaxy S8 vs Apple's iPhone

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  • Reply 121 of 167
    brucemcbrucemc Posts: 1,432member
    cropr said:
    wigby said:
    No one is saying that running multiple platforms isn't possible. But it's totally true that the only ones who do are tech journalists for their job and some others that get handmedown iPhones or android phones for free. Why would I want to deal with multiple paltforms if I didn't have to? It's not just about the apps, it's the Ui. Have you ever watched people use a foreign UI for the first time? It's painful to watch and never worth it unless it's your job.
    I am the owner of app developing company for both Android and iOS, so in my company we use on a daily basis both platforms extensively.
    Do you realize that in terms of UI, Android is on some points worse but on other points superior than iOS.  Just 2 examples where Android is clearly better.
    The iOS date and time selection widgets do look nice, but once you used the Android versions, you'll find the iOS widgets clumsy, inefficient and too much a gimmick. 
    Entering passwords is another key feature where Android is better.   Typically passwords contains characters and digits.  When typing a password, the Android keyboard is clever enough to switch off the word predictions (they are useless in this context) and to replace it with all the digits, so you have don't have to use the shift key when entering digits.  As a consequence, typing a password on Android is faster and less error prone.
    Thankfully, due to the impeccable implementation of TouchID, I only have to enter my password every couple of days.
    watto_cobra
  • Reply 122 of 167
    ronnronn Posts: 293member
    avon b7 said:
    So AI must be worried about Samsung and the S8 becoming popular otherwise no reason to write this piece.
    Your employers must be worried because you're always worried that AI is worried. 
    Clearly if DED was confident about Apple he wouldn't need to write these overly defensive and biased editorials. Same with everyone who throws out the Apple makes the most profit argument as if the only measure of success is generating massive profits. I don't remember Apple fans in the past being so obsessed with how much profit it makes. 
    Clearly that's pure opinion on your part and not fact based whatsoever. 

    Profit as a metric in debates about platform matter because 1) profit means people are voting with their dollars. 2) profit is the air corporations breathe, not market share. Note that even you would not be foolish enough to argue Mercedes was "worried" about their market share compared to Honda and Toyota. Yeah, because it doesn't matter to anyone but those looking to win pretend arguments on a rumor site. Profit share always trumps market share. 
    When you want to open up a huge 'services' revenue stream, market share is all that matters. You have a larger base to feed off and you take share (and potential services profits) from competitors. Market share matters for more than this but services is just one important reason.

    Apple Services Likely to Top $7 Billion This Quarter
    http://www.marketwatch.com/story/apple-services-likely-to-top-7-billion-this-quarter-2017-04-26

    Last quarter, Apple CEO Tim Cook, who has referred to services as a “large and important source of recurring revenues” for the company, forecast that Apple’s services revenue would double by 2020.

    Many (most?) Android vendors would love to have $7 Billion in revenue for an entire year. That's just Apple's revenue from Services in the most recent quarter.

    Profit trumps market share. It's not even a contest. 
    StrangeDayswatto_cobra
  • Reply 123 of 167
    volcanvolcan Posts: 1,684member
    avon b7 said:
    Yep. Or Telegram. iMessage is an option but being platform specific, very limited in use.
    Not sure why, but pretty much all of the people I communicate with are on iPhones, well except my dad who we call a cheap ass millionaire. He goes out of his way to make sure no one ever thinks he is elitist. Personally I have never even touched an Android device so I'm in no position to judge them. And by the way, iMessage works just like a regular text message if the other person is not on iOS so it is not limited to just iPhones. If the other person cannot receive text messages, that isn't really Apple's fault.
    ronnwatto_cobra
  • Reply 124 of 167
    avon b7 said:
    avon b7 said:
    minglok50 said:
    You are citing `the Verge as a credible balanced site...
    You are posting in thread hanging off a DED article. Balance is not something that springs to mind.
    I agree with the sentiment that DED articles cannot be considered balanced, but somehow I found this article to be a balanced one. May be, my own biases!!!
    Bias isn't a bad thing per se. We all have an element of It. When necessary we can all filter much of that bias out. I've worked in government and know how important it is to gIve everyone the same treatment Iindependently of my own personal opinion or feelings.

    In this article it's his opinion but as usual soaked in bias. Sometimes I get through them, others I don't. This time I didn't.

    I'm not forced to read them.

    I think in this article I hit on two unbalanced points and then threw in the towel.

    One was the stab at facial recognition. The company tells you you shouldn't use it as a security feature and it won't even allow you to  make payments with it. On the other hand they offer you an iris scanner which no iPhone has, and AFAIK at this point, is very secure. Nevertheless it seems ok to take a gratuitous poke at facial recognition because it is 'weak' and just skip the iris scanner, as mentioning that would make the stab less effective.

    Of course, to work, you would need some kind of ssocial engineering. You need a photo of the person. The last time I checked, Apple would allow you to not even set a passcode and would definitely accept ultra weak passcode. In that regard, it is just as weak as facial recognition. 

    The other point was services. The article's sets out the stand very clearly. S8. iPhone. The lead in then just opens the door to everything under the sun because it wants to include historical context (biased of course :-))

    But why did it slam Samsung's entire mobile division with that direct non historical comparison to Apple Services? The relevance of Services is very recent and is derived from the entire Apple spectrum, not just iPhone. I didn't see any balance there. 

    It's true that I just stopped reading anyway so maybe there was some kind of justification elsewhere in the article. Anyway, that's how I saw when I started reading.
    You say Samsung doesn't portray the face recognition feature as involving security, but there's a picture of Samsung's S8 launch website that calls it "personal security." The fact that it was as poorly designed in terms of security as everything else the company does comes as no surprise. But if it's not intended to be secure, why tout it as being security feature? 

    Second, the article doesn't even reference Apple's Services revenue. 🤔

    ericthehalfbeeStrangeDaysai46ronnpscooter63watto_cobra
  • Reply 125 of 167
    avon b7avon b7 Posts: 2,635member
    volcan said:
    avon b7 said:
    Yep. Or Telegram. iMessage is an option but being platform specific, very limited in use.
    Not sure why, but pretty much all of the people I communicate with are on iPhones, well except my dad who we call a cheap ass millionaire. He goes out of his way to make sure no one ever thinks he is elitist. Personally I have never even touched an Android device so I'm in no position to judge them. And by the way, iMessage works just like a regular text message if the other person is not on iOS so it is not limited to just iPhones. If the other person cannot receive text messages, that isn't really Apple's fault.
    Regular text messages can cost money and are limited in length, unless you have your messages spread over various. There is no support for images unless it is a multimedia message which could cost the receiver more.

    Whatsapp and Telegram were built to kill them, which is what they have done and why they dominate this space with the likes of Line etc.
    edited April 2017
  • Reply 126 of 167
    blastdoorblastdoor Posts: 1,873member
    saltyzip said:
    blastdoor said:

    The thing that really is kind of crazy is how bad Android phones are at web browser performance when "the open web" is supposedly central to Google's existence. You'd think that of all things on an Android phone, the web browser would be highly optimized and would be competitive with the iPhone. But you'd be wrong. So weird. 
    Pop into your local phone shop and pickup an internet connected android phone such as the pixel and fire up chrome. See if your perception on web browsing on android changes. Google have made strives in the past two years, I can't say if it rivals the iPhone, but from my experience its fast and almost silky smooth.
    I actually did exactly that and the Pixel was noticeably worse than the Galaxy S8, which was noticeably worse than the iPhone. For each phone in the Verizon shop, I just walked up, fired up the web browser, and loaded the CNN website. The iPhone wasn't literally instantaneous, but compared to the Android phones it felt instantaneous. 
    StrangeDaysronnwatto_cobra
  • Reply 127 of 167
    Unfortunately, though, Apple is more and more neglecting software, or cognizant that its core is software. Bugs, serious bugs, are being left unattended and unfixed for years - particularly on the iPad platform. Siri, 5 years in, is basically unchanged. iOS' contextual awareness has regressed and might as well not exist. But hey, glad Jonny is obsessing over making everything thinner.
    brucemcavon b7
  • Reply 128 of 167
    brucemcbrucemc Posts: 1,432member
    It is helpful to read some of the reviews of the S8 from sources that are not just focused on "it is new & cool, so it is great!!!'.  Walt Mossberg provided a review on The Verge (yes, the Verge), and it is useful reading for those that tout the iPhone as boring, and Samsung as leading the smartphone race.  Not surprisingly, Mossberg gave strong marks to the design aspect of large screen in smallish case, and the screen itself.  All sources seem to agree that it is a great looking phone with a bright/colourful screen.

    However, there were a significant number of not-so-great and even cons:
    - Battery life was good.  Nothing that stuck out as great.
    - Very tall shape that often sticks out of pockets, restricts one-handed use, and the s/w accessibility feature to deal with this is not as good as iPhone or Pixel.
    - Screen is very good, but (as often with Samsung phones) oversaturated
    - Camera is very good, but not as good as Pixel in the Android crowd (iPhone was not compared)
    - Bixby assistant was "unimpressive"

    Major downsides:
    - Biometric security.  "..the Galaxy S8 had the least reliable, most frustrating, biometric security measures I’ve ever tested. The fingerprint sensor has been moved to a high, awkward position on the rear of the phone, and I found that it constantly failed to recognize either of my two index fingers. Even enrolling the fingers was slow and jerky.  Facial recognition, in addition to being relatively insecure according to Samsung, also failed almost all the time for me. And the same was true for a more secure method, Iris recognition, which was slow even in the minority of times it worked.  The result: I wound up typing in a pin almost all the time."

    - Bloatware/Software.  "And then there was the bloatware. Samsung has cut way back on its once laughably complex settings menus and some other features of its Android skin. But it still thinks it’s a software company. So, on my test unit, there was a passel of unnecessary, duplicative Samsung software, and another folder chock full of bloatware from the carrier, T-Mobile.  I much prefer the clean experiences on my iPhone and Pixel. So does everyone I know, Maybe it’s finally time for Samsung to emulate Apple and use its brand power to bar preinstalled carrier software. Maybe it’s also time for Samsung to either get fabulous at its own software or stop trying"

    http://www.theverge.com/2017/4/18/15333752/walt-mossberg-review-samsung-galaxy-s8
    tmayStrangeDaysronnwatto_cobra
  • Reply 129 of 167
    linkmanlinkman Posts: 828member
    brucemc said:
     Facial recognition, in addition to being relatively insecure according to Samsung, also failed almost all the time for me.
    Mossberg needs to use a picture of himself. That works better than your real face.
    tmayronnwatto_cobra
  • Reply 130 of 167
    volcanvolcan Posts: 1,684member
    avon b7 said:
    Whatsapp and Telegram were built to kill them, which is what they have done and why they dominate this space with the likes of Line etc.
    As was iMessage.

    All the years I've had an iPhone, literally only one person has ever asked me if I had WhatsApp. They had a Samsung then but now they are on iPhone.

    I like iMessage because it also works on my Macs.
    StrangeDaysronnpscooter63watto_cobra
  • Reply 131 of 167
    nhtnht Posts: 4,214member
    avon b7 said:
    nht said:
    Android's problem is that 50% of the installed base is still KitKat or Lollipop.  

    If you want to reach at least half the market you have to work on Lollipop which still has 32% share.

    Whereas on iOS you can safely target iOS 10 and get 79% of the market.  So at best you can compare Lollipop features against iOS 10 features.
    What are the absolute numbers behind those percentages? Percentages are fine if both groups are the same size. That isn't the case here.
    Neither Apple nor Google provides that information in their stats.

    In the US the market share is 55% Android vs 43% iOS.  It is similar in other English speaking countries like U.K. And AUS.


    So yes, for English language app developers the numbers are sufficiently similar.

    Also, given that the App Store generated $5.5B vs $3.4B by google we can infer that the majority of the most lucrative users are likely flagship phone owners. If we compare Samsung vs Apple flagships the 2014 S5 was stuck on marshmallow when nougat was released in 2016.

    in fact many Samsung users are only now getting Marshmallow.

    http://www.gottabemobile.com/samsung-galaxy-marshmallow-update-2017/

    So really Lollipop is the safe target even for S6 users.

    So the user experience for the majority of even flagship users is Android circa 2015.  

    Android developers may target Lollipop and test with it but I would say most use a Nougat device for personal use based on our devs so their experience isn't typical.  

    That nougat is on par with iOS and vice versa is IMHO mostly true but so what? Only 4.9% of users are running Nougat.

    watto_cobra
  • Reply 132 of 167
    StrangeDaysStrangeDays Posts: 5,393member
    Unfortunately, though, Apple is more and more neglecting software, or cognizant that its core is software. Bugs, serious bugs, are being left unattended and unfixed for years - particularly on the iPad platform. Siri, 5 years in, is basically unchanged. iOS' contextual awareness has regressed and might as well not exist. But hey, glad Jonny is obsessing over making everything thinner.
    Yeah except not really.
    watto_cobra
  • Reply 133 of 167
    StrangeDaysStrangeDays Posts: 5,393member

    volcan said:
    avon b7 said:
    Whatsapp and Telegram were built to kill them, which is what they have done and why they dominate this space with the likes of Line etc.
    As was iMessage.

    All the years I've had an iPhone, literally only one person has ever asked me if I had WhatsApp. They had a Samsung then but now they are on iPhone.

    I like iMessage because it also works on my Macs.
    Being able to use iMessage on my desktop, notebook, phone, and tablet is boss.
    ronnpscooter63watto_cobra
  • Reply 134 of 167
    StrangeDaysStrangeDays Posts: 5,393member
    avon b7 said:
    So AI must be worried about Samsung and the S8 becoming popular otherwise no reason to write this piece.
    Your employers must be worried because you're always worried that AI is worried. 
    Clearly if DED was confident about Apple he wouldn't need to write these overly defensive and biased editorials. Same with everyone who throws out the Apple makes the most profit argument as if the only measure of success is generating massive profits. I don't remember Apple fans in the past being so obsessed with how much profit it makes. 
    Clearly that's pure opinion on your part and not fact based whatsoever. 

    Profit as a metric in debates about platform matter because 1) profit means people are voting with their dollars. 2) profit is the air corporations breathe, not market share. Note that even you would not be foolish enough to argue Mercedes was "worried" about their market share compared to Honda and Toyota. Yeah, because it doesn't matter to anyone but those looking to win pretend arguments on a rumor site. Profit share always trumps market share. 
    When you want to open up a huge 'services' revenue stream, market share is all that matters. You have a larger base to feed off and you take share (and potential services profits) from competitors. Market share matters for more than this but services is just one important reason.
    You've just move the goal posts -- we were discussing all the profit iPhone sucks up in its market, not services. Regardless, profit is the overall metric a corporation needs to survive and show its dominance with. Apple's leading in profit share is unmistakable and cannot be argued around. Profit is boss. Apple is king of profit right now.
    edited April 2017 tmaypscooter63watto_cobra
  • Reply 135 of 167
    StrangeDaysStrangeDays Posts: 5,393member

    avon b7 said:
    avon b7 said:
    Blunt said:
    cropr said:
    Entering passwords is another key feature where Android is better.   Typically passwords contains characters and digits.  When typing a password, the Android keyboard is clever enough to switch off the word predictions (they are useless in this context) and to replace it with all the digits, so you have don't have to use the shift key when entering digits.  As a consequence, typing a password on Android is faster and less error prone.

    Entering passwords a key feature? Saves you several seconds a month. Wow. Android is amazing.
    It was an interesting post. I can't see why it warranted a sarcastic reply.
    Because it's a stupid point -- doing something neat with passwords doesn't make it a great OS. And it's easily countered with android doing something dumb, like this:



    ...firstly why is it ever necessary to tell the user this (or have it happen at all), and secondly the ramifications to the user of selecting which button to click are quite unclear. It's completely anti-user and stupid in every way. 

    So bringing up password keyboard behavior, and claiming it's a "key feature" of Android, is completely ridiculous. 
    I will repeat myself.

    It wasn't a stupid comment and didn't warrant a sarcastic reply.

    Now onto your specific point. I do not have that specific Android but do have a similar feature (which can be turned off).

    The ramifications are clear to me. 'Cancel' is to close the dialog, leaving everything as is, and 'Close App' is to close the App.

    Nope, it's a stupid thing to claim password keyboard behavior is a "key feature" of android. Real stupid.

    As for the stupid dialog from one of the knockoffs, the ramifications are *not* clear -- if the app "needs to be closed", then why is it seemingly giving me a choice? What are the ramifications of canceling the dialog? Does it get closed anyway? Does it stay open? Will it crash the app? If the system (CPU) is overloaded, will it be bad for my other apps? My device? Etc. This is shit UI.

    And the fact that it's even happening in the first place is shit engineering.

    Shit sandwich, no matter how you try to pretend it looks tasty.
    edited April 2017 ronnpscooter63watto_cobra
  • Reply 136 of 167
    StrangeDaysStrangeDays Posts: 5,393member

    avon b7 said:
    Blunt said:
    cropr said:
    Entering passwords is another key feature where Android is better.   Typically passwords contains characters and digits.  When typing a password, the Android keyboard is clever enough to switch off the word predictions (they are useless in this context) and to replace it with all the digits, so you have don't have to use the shift key when entering digits.  As a consequence, typing a password on Android is faster and less error prone.

    Entering passwords a key feature? Saves you several seconds a month. Wow. Android is amazing.
    It was an interesting post. I can't see why it warranted a sarcastic reply.
    Because it's a stupid point -- doing something neat with passwords doesn't make it a great OS. And it's easily countered with android doing something dumb, like this:



    ...firstly why is it ever necessary to tell the user this (or have it happen at all), and secondly the ramifications to the user of selecting which button to click are quite unclear. It's completely anti-user and stupid in every way. 

    So bringing up password keyboard behavior, and claiming it's a "key feature" of Android, is completely ridiculous. 

    It was an interesting screenshot, which I have never seen in last 4 years of gmail app use (not even once, and I do use gmail daily) !!! Just curious to know - did this happen in an iPhone or an Android phone? If Android phone, which model?
    That dialog is not even possible on an iPhone. That's the whole point.
    ronnpscooter63watto_cobra
  • Reply 137 of 167
    StrangeDaysStrangeDays Posts: 5,393member

    WLee said:
    Wow, the s8 appears to have folks here really rattled based on this article, it exposes a real insecurity about what apple is producing at the moment. 

    Before I am flamed for that, I am a long term apple user, iPads, iPhones for years but there is no denying that the s8 has set the standard for design and the concept phones that I am seeing as leaks are tragically way off the creativity of the s8. I think this article actually reinforces that because it's loaded with attacks, we attack when flight of fight is triggered. 

    Step up apple. 
    Nonsense post. This article uses facts and real data to negate the BS narratives being put forth by other news sources. To claim we're "rattled" by yet another knockoff by the masters of knockoffs, is an attempt to make yourself feel better about owning a knockoff.

    The S8 has set no "standard for design" -- case in point, the poor design decision to put the fingerprint sensor on the back right next to the camera has already got reviewers complaining about smudging their lenses. That's shit design. Design is how a thing works, not just how it looks. Looks alone is like having a trophy-wife airhead.
    ronntmaypscooter63watto_cobra
  • Reply 138 of 167
    It is the same media narrative as during US presidential elections. The proof showed up and everybody was shocked that none of media "news" and speculations were true.
    watto_cobra
  • Reply 139 of 167
    avon b7 said:
    So AI must be worried about Samsung and the S8 becoming popular otherwise no reason to write this piece.
    Your employers must be worried because you're always worried that AI is worried. 
    Clearly if DED was confident about Apple he wouldn't need to write these overly defensive and biased editorials. Same with everyone who throws out the Apple makes the most profit argument as if the only measure of success is generating massive profits. I don't remember Apple fans in the past being so obsessed with how much profit it makes. 
    Clearly that's pure opinion on your part and not fact based whatsoever. 

    Profit as a metric in debates about platform matter because 1) profit means people are voting with their dollars. 2) profit is the air corporations breathe, not market share. Note that even you would not be foolish enough to argue Mercedes was "worried" about their market share compared to Honda and Toyota. Yeah, because it doesn't matter to anyone but those looking to win pretend arguments on a rumor site. Profit share always trumps market share. 
    When you want to open up a huge 'services' revenue stream, market share is all that matters. You have a larger base to feed off and you take share (and potential services profits) from competitors. Market share matters for more than this but services is just one important reason.

    Textbook example of a typical GatorGuy response. Let me explain.

    First you make a blanket statement and present it as absolute fact. In your case: "When you want to open up a huge 'services' revenue stream, market share is all that matters."

    It sort of makes sense when you first read it, but you realize there's one very important component missing that completely changes the meaning (and why your statement is an outright lie). You forgot to add a qualifier to your statement.

    You should have said something like: "
    When you want to open up a huge 'services' revenue stream, market share vs competitors selling the same product is all that matters."

    A company that makes trucks is only concerned with their market share of the overall truck market. They don't compare their sales to cars, minivans or sports cars. The iPhone completely dominates the high-end smartphone market. This is why, with half as many App downloads (vs Google Play), they generate almost twice the revenue. This makes 1 iPhone user worth as much as 4 Android users. And why overall market share means nothing. Apple is only concerned with the high-end market (the most valuable customers). And of this part of the market, Apple has the largest share.
    ronntmaywatto_cobra
  • Reply 140 of 167
    avon b7avon b7 Posts: 2,635member
    avon b7 said:
    avon b7 said:
    minglok50 said:
    You are citing `the Verge as a credible balanced site...
    You are posting in thread hanging off a DED article. Balance is not something that springs to mind.
    I agree with the sentiment that DED articles cannot be considered balanced, but somehow I found this article to be a balanced one. May be, my own biases!!!
    Bias isn't a bad thing per se. We all have an element of It. When necessary we can all filter much of that bias out. I've worked in government and know how important it is to gIve everyone the same treatment Iindependently of my own personal opinion or feelings.

    In this article it's his opinion but as usual soaked in bias. Sometimes I get through them, others I don't. This time I didn't.

    I'm not forced to read them.

    I think in this article I hit on two unbalanced points and then threw in the towel.

    One was the stab at facial recognition. The company tells you you shouldn't use it as a security feature and it won't even allow you to  make payments with it. On the other hand they offer you an iris scanner which no iPhone has, and AFAIK at this point, is very secure. Nevertheless it seems ok to take a gratuitous poke at facial recognition because it is 'weak' and just skip the iris scanner, as mentioning that would make the stab less effective.

    Of course, to work, you would need some kind of ssocial engineering. You need a photo of the person. The last time I checked, Apple would allow you to not even set a passcode and would definitely accept ultra weak passcode. In that regard, it is just as weak as facial recognition. 

    The other point was services. The article's sets out the stand very clearly. S8. iPhone. The lead in then just opens the door to everything under the sun because it wants to include historical context (biased of course :-))

    But why did it slam Samsung's entire mobile division with that direct non historical comparison to Apple Services? The relevance of Services is very recent and is derived from the entire Apple spectrum, not just iPhone. I didn't see any balance there. 

    It's true that I just stopped reading anyway so maybe there was some kind of justification elsewhere in the article. Anyway, that's how I saw when I started reading.
    You say Samsung doesn't portray the face recognition feature as involving security, but there's a picture of Samsung's S8 launch website that calls it "personal security." The fact that it was as poorly designed in terms of security as everything else the company does comes as no surprise. But if it's not intended to be secure, why tout it as being security feature? 

    Second, the article doesn't even reference Apple's Services revenue. 🤔

    Like I said, I didn't finish the article. I was speaking off the top off my head. 

    I've criticised the presence of facial recognition on the security page at Samsung here on AI but in another thread. I don't think it should be portrayed that way but at the end of the day, it is security feature, just a weak one. Weaker than a poor,  obvious or no passcode? It is an unbalanced criticism if the company gives you a warning and no mention is made of other methods that have the potential to be even weaker but that are simply not mentioned. I haven't checked personally but can you setup an iPhone without a passcode or 1234 o 123456 or my birthday? Which is better, facial recognition for unlock or nothing?

    'Other stuff', non iPhone revenue. I suppose 'services' must be included in that group. I think the point stands though.
    dominosixtyseven
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