Review: 2017 MacBook Pro fulfills the promise of the line's redesign

Posted:
in Current Mac Hardware edited October 2017
At the WWDC, Apple took the opportunity to toss the new Kaby Lake i7 processor into the the redesigned 2016 MacBook Pro chassis. If you liked the 2016 but didn't jump, you'll be even happier with the 2017.





The latest MacBook Pro models are internally Apple's 13th generation MacBook Pro, but they effectively represent the fourth major body redesign. The new design leans heavily on techniques used for the Retina MacBook, MacBook Air, and iPad, trimming down the design to 0.61 inches (15.5 mm) thick and and 4.02 pounds -- making it thinner than the MacBook Air.




Apple's high end 15-inch MacBook Pro is available in standard silver and a darker Space Gray finish, and is sold alongside a smaller 13-inch version -- but that model is a different review.

As with the 2017 13-inch non-Touch Bar model's similarity to the 2016 model, so is the 15-inch Touch Bar version nearly identical to last year's variant (which is now $200 to $450 off at authorized resellers). If you're not a fan of four Thunderbolt 3 as found on the 2016, there's no additions here. Likewise, the keyboard, screen, trackpad, and Touch Bar are the same year-over-year, so if you were hoping that Apple would change direction, you'll be disappointed.




As before, the Touch ID button is still a physical one, and it serves mostly as an emergency way to force a shut down in the case of a nasty Kernel Panic, more than a power-on switch. Other power functions are handled automatically by default, with the user opening and closing the lid to respectively wake or start and sleep the machine.

Touch ID isn't universal, though. If you log out of your account, you'll need to supply a password to log back in; Touch ID only works if your account is active. You also need to log in manually after a power cycle, just as with iOS devices.




The Touch Bar is still intended to appear and function as a dynamic strip of virtual keyboard keys, unconfined by the physical structure of mechanical keys. When you hold down the FN key, the Touch Bar reverts to a standard strip of 12 function keys and the ESC key (below). If you boot into Windows, the Touch Bar reverts to displaying virtual FN keys.

After nearly nine months of use, the verdict is still out on the Touch Bar. it's not a universal tool, and we don't use it for everything. Mileage may vary, user to user.

But -- you're probably not reading to hear about the Touch Bar again.

Hardware boosts

The whole point of the 2017 MacBook Pro refresh was the addition of Kaby Lake. When the machine was originally designed and shipped, the quad-core processor suitable for the 15-inch MacBook Pro wasn't available.

It is now, and Apple has fulfilled what was heralded in 2006 as the big advantage to shifting to Intel -- the ability to update the hardware frequently.




There are two main configurations of the 15-inch MacBook Pro. We tested the most powerful model with a 3.1GHz i7 and Radeon 560 4GB graphics and compared it to the 2016 with its top i7 2.9GHz processor and Radeon 460.

The 2016 Mac rated decent single- and multi-core scores of 4,635 points and 13,416 points, respectively, on the latest version of Geekbench 4. By comparison, the 2017 model reached 4,891 points and 16,426 points, respectively. The 12-percent single core and 24-percent multi-core improvements came as a surprise considering typical CPU updates usually result in single digit improvements.

Even though the rated clock speeds have only risen by 200 to 300MHz, actual usable performance under load has increased by 500 to 600mhz explaining the large multi-core improvements. Kaby lake in the 2017 also runs cooler than the Skylake in the 2016, allowing the turbo boost clock speed to stay higher for longer during processor intensive tasks.




The CPU improvements are two-fold -- there is a slight gain in performance because of the architectural improvements, but the bigger gain is because the processor runs cooler, and a frequency boost was possible. At 16,426 points, the multi-core score almost matches the 16,975 points of the Skylake 4.0Ghz i7 CPU, which was the best processor option available with the late-2015 5K iMac.

As far as rumored 32GB configurations go -- Kaby Lake can also support more than 16GB of DDR3 and DDR4 RAM. However, LPDDR3 has little in common with its desktop progenitor, and is limited to 16GB by spec and design.

Users needing a 32GB model will need to wait for a possible redesign to use the more power-hungry RAM, or for Cannon Lake processors to ship, at some point in late 2018.

Renumbered GPUs don't mean an enormous up-tick in performance

New with the 2017 model are the 500-series of Radeon Pro GPUs. The 450, 455, and 460 shipped in the 2016 iteration, and the 555 and 560 ship in the 2017 model.

The 1 teraflop Radeon Pro 450 is gone in the "low end" of the 15-inch MacBook Pro. It's been replaced by the 1.5Tflop 555 in the base configuration, with the 1.9Tflop 560 at the high end.

Roughly, the 555 at the low-end is analogous to the 455 in the higher end of the store-available 2016 MacBook Pro, and the 560 is about the same as the 460.

Like previous models, macOS can automatically activate and switch to the dedicated GPU when necessary and fall back to integrated graphics to save energy. In these cases, the on-board graphics are a hair faster, but nothing notable.




Geekbench 4's OpenCL graphics test showed almost identical scores for both machines. The 2016 came in at 42,887 and the 2017 version scored 42,990. We also tested Unigen Heaven, a 3D graphics benchmark, with the older model getting a score of 461 with 18.3 frames per second, while the 2017 15-inch Macbook Pro with 560 graphics rated 468 and 18.6FPS.

While faster processors are nice for those editing video or performing other graphics intensive tasks, the graphics card is more of a limitation. Comparing Geekbench 4 scores to the latest fully-upgraded 5k iMac, the 2017 Macbook Pro CPU keeps up quite well but the Radeon Pro 560 is miles behind the Radeon Pro 580. The 2017 iMac attains nearly three times higher OpenCL scores at 117,742 compared to 42,990 for the MacBook Pro.

We have been using the 2016 Macbook Pro for video production since launch and the bottleneck has always been graphics capabilities. When working with effects or animations, the CPU sits at about 30-50 percent usage while the graphics card is maxed out.

This is further proven by BruceX, a Final Cut benchmark in which the 2015 5K iMac with practically the same CPU performance but faster graphics takes 27 seconds to complete. By contrast, the fastest 2017 Macbook Pro takes 40 seconds for the same task.

A word about Thunderbolt 3

There remains a great deal of gnashing of teeth about Thunderbolt 3. Users complain about the expense of dongles to adapt, and Apple's lack of consideration for users in moving to the new connector.




In the user's defense, they're not entirely wrong. In Apple's defense, Thunderbolt 3 with the USB-C connector is more future-proof and far faster than USB 3.0.

A solution that may keep costs down is a Thunderbolt dock. While Thunderbolt 3 docks start at $199 retail, the $49 Apple Thunderbolt 2 to Thunderbolt 3 adapter will work nicely to use an older dock with the newer gear, possibly making the prospect of a Thunderbolt 2 (or even original Thunderbolt) dock cheaper than a bag full of adapters.

The adapter situation has already started to lighten some, if that's not ideal for you. USB-C to USB 3.0 type-B peripheral cables for hard drives can be had for $10 or so from Amazon, needing no adapter at all.

The MacBook Pro is a workhorse, but it's not a desktop

The MacBook Pro is not a Mac Pro replacement. The next closest thing to the Mac Pro is the forthcoming iMac Pro, but failing that, a 4K or 5K iMac will fit the bill for horsepower.

If you need oomph plus portability, get a MacBook Pro. If processing power and RAM are first in your mind, get a 4K or 5K iMac for fewer bucks than a less powerful MacBook Pro will cost. Otherwise, wait to drop $5,000 or more on an iMac Pro.

Score 4.5 out of 5.

Where to buy

Adorama is offering AppleInsider readers the lowest prices on Mid 2017 15-inch MacBook Pros thanks to coupon code APINSIDER, which knocks $50 to $100 off most configurations. Plus, since Adorama will not collect sales tax on orders shipped outside NY and NJ, many shoppers outside those two states can save $210 to $575 compared to paying full price with tax at the Apple Store. For a full list of deals and up-to-date prices, please visit our Mid 2017 15-inch MacBook Pro Price Guide.

Mid 2017 15-inch MacBook Pros
15" (2.8GHz 16GB 256GB Radeon 555) Space Gray for $2,199.00 *
($50 off + no tax outside NY and NJ)
15" (2.8GHz 16GB 256GB Radeon 555) Silver for $2,199.00 *
($200 off + no tax outside NY and NJ)
15" (2.8GHz 16GB 512GB Radeon 555) Space Gray for $2,499.00 *
($100 off + no tax outside NY and NJ)
15" (2.8GHz 16GB 512GB Radeon 555) Silver for $2,379.00 *
($220 off + no tax outside NY and NJ)
15" (2.8GHz 16GB 1TB Radeon 555) Space Gray for $2,879.00 *
($120 off + no tax outside NY and NJ)
15" (2.8GHz 16GB 1TB Radeon 555) Silver for $2,879.00 *
($120 off + no tax outside NY and NJ)
15" (2.8GHz 16GB 2TB Radeon 555) Space Gray for $3,679.00 *
($120 off + no tax outside NY and NJ)
15" (2.8GHz 16GB 2TB Radeon 555) Silver for $3,679.00 *
($120 off + no tax outside NY and NJ)
15" (2.8GHz 16GB 256GB Radeon 560) Space Gray for $2,379.00 *
($120 off + no tax outside NY and NJ)
15" (2.8GHz 16GB 256GB Radeon 560) Silver for $2,379.00 *
($120 off + no tax outside NY and NJ)
15" (2.8GHz 16GB 512GB Radeon 560) Space Gray for $2,499.00 *
($200 off + no tax outside NY and NJ)
15" (2.8GHz 16GB 512GB Radeon 560) Silver for $2,579.00 *
($120 off + no tax outside NY and NJ)
15" (2.8GHz 16GB 1TB Radeon 560) Space Gray for $2,899.00 *
($200 off + no tax outside NY and NJ)
15" (2.8GHz 16GB 1TB Radeon 560) Silver for $2,979.00 *
($120 off + no tax outside NY and NJ)
15" (2.8GHz 16GB 2TB Radeon 560) Space Gray for $3,779.00 *
($120 off + no tax outside NY and NJ)
15" (2.8GHz 16GB 2TB Radeon 560) Silver for $3,779.00 *
($120 off + no tax outside NY and NJ)
15" (2.9GHz 16GB 512GB Radeon 560) Space Gray for $2,599.00
($200 off + no tax outside NY and NJ)
15" (2.9GHz 16GB 512GB Radeon 560) Silver for $2,549.00 *
($250 off + no tax outside NY and NJ)
15" (2.9GHz 16GB 1TB Radeon 560) Space Gray for $2,879.00 *
($320 off + no tax outside NY and NJ)
15" (2.9GHz 16GB 1TB Radeon 560) Silver for $2,899.00 *
($300 off + no tax outside NY and NJ)
15" (2.9GHz 16GB 2TB Radeon 560) Space Gray for $3,879.00 *
($120 off + no tax outside NY and NJ)
15" (2.9GHz 16GB 2TB Radeon 560) Silver for $3,879.00 *
($120 off + no tax outside NY and NJ)
15" (3.1GHz 16GB 256GB Radeon 555) Space Gray for $2,579.00 *
($120 off + no tax outside NY and NJ)
15" (3.1GHz 16GB 256GB Radeon 555) Silver for $2,579.00 *
($120 off + no tax outside NY and NJ)
15" (3.1GHz 16GB 512GB Radeon 555) Space Gray for $2,779.00 *
($120 off + no tax outside NY and NJ)
15" (3.1GHz 16GB 512GB Radeon 555) Silver for $2,779.00 *
($120 off + no tax outside NY and NJ)
15" (3.1GHz 16GB 1TB Radeon 555) Space Gray for $3,179.00 *
($120 off + no tax outside NY and NJ)
15" (3.1GHz 16GB 1TB Radeon 555) Silver for $3,179.00 *
($120 off + no tax outside NY and NJ)
15" (3.1GHz 16GB 2TB Radeon 555) Space Gray for $3,979.00 *
($120 off + no tax outside NY and NJ)
15" (3.1GHz 16GB 2TB Radeon 555) Silver for $3,979.00 *
($120 off + no tax outside NY and NJ)
15" (3.1GHz 16GB 256GB Radeon 560) Space Gray for $2,679.00 *
($120 off + no tax outside NY and NJ)
15" (3.1GHz 16GB 256GB Radeon 560) Silver for $2,679.00 *
($120 off + no tax outside NY and NJ)
15" (3.1GHz 16GB 512GB Radeon 560) Space Gray for $2,899.00 *
($100 off + no tax outside NY and NJ)
15" (3.1GHz 16GB 512GB Radeon 560) Silver for $2,879.00 *
($120 off + no tax outside NY and NJ)
15" (3.1GHz 16GB 1TB Radeon 560) Space Gray for $3,299.00 *
($100 off + no tax outside NY and NJ)
15" (3.1GHz 16GB 1TB Radeon 560) Silver for $3,299.00 *
($100 off + no tax outside NY and NJ)
15" (3.1GHz 16GB 2TB Radeon 560) Space Gray for $4,099.00 *
($100 off + no tax outside NY and NJ)
15" (3.1GHz 16GB 2TB Radeon 560) Silver for $4,099.00 *
($100 off + no tax outside NY and NJ)
* Price with promo code APINSIDER using the step-by-step instructions below. Adorama will not collect sales tax on orders shipped outside NY & NJ.

Add AppleCare and save $30
You can easily tack on an AppleCare+ extended protection plan to these Mid 2017 15-inch MacBook Pros for the discounted rate of $349 by selecting the AppleCare option immediately after you press the "Add to Cart" button on Adorama's website.

(%) Step by Step Instructions for these Deals at Adorama

    1) Make sure you're using a browser with cookies enabled that isn't in private mode.
    2) Click on the price link to the desired configuration from this article or the Adorama price links in our Price Guides. You MUST click through our links in the same shopping session that you use our coupon. If you try to save a link for late, the coupon WON'T WORK. Once you click through a price link, you'll see a price that's higher than advertised (we'll fix that in a moment).
    3) Add the MacBook to your cart anyway, and when you're done shopping, begin the checkout process.
    4) After you enter your shipping information, move to the Payment section during checkout.
    5) Look for a link that says "Do you have a gift card or promo code?" next to the gift icon. Click that to bring up a coupon code field.


    6) Enter the coupon code APINSIDER in the field and click apply. The discount should appear under "Promo Savings" above the order total.
    7) That's it. If you live outside NY & NJ Adorama will also not collect sales tax on your order.
    As always, if you have any issues, you can reach out to us at priceguides@gmail.com and we'll try and help.
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Comments

  • Reply 1 of 175
    zimmermannzimmermann Posts: 193member
    I don't seem to reed it in this article. Is this a winner, or is it an OK laptop for a very high price?
    williamlondon
  • Reply 2 of 175
    slurpyslurpy Posts: 4,995member
    I'd love one of these machines, but my 2014 MBP is still working beautifully, I have no complaints. I think I'll upgrade whenever Apple releases their new display, as I'll probably need USB-C ports. 
    williamlondonwatto_cobraschlack
  • Reply 3 of 175
    appexappex Posts: 687member
    Why not tell the full story? MacBook Pro is great (albeit expensive), but Apple should use standard ports and connectors, not soldered proprietary components. Apple should allow to use custom SSD for instance, like the awesome Samsung 960 PRO SSD. Besides not charging two to three times more for them, as now does with iMac RAM, for instance when compared to market price at sites like Amazon. Do not get me wrong. I love the Mac, but Apple does not do it right sometimes. And this is a positive criticism to make happy customers and boost market share.
    Nameo_avon b7tyler82
  • Reply 4 of 175
    StrangeDaysStrangeDays Posts: 4,751member
    appex said:
    Why not tell the full story? MacBook Pro is great (albeit expensive), but Apple should use standard ports and connectors, not soldered proprietary components. Apple should allow to use custom SSD for instance, like the awesome Samsung 960 PRO SSD. Besides not charging two to three times more for them, as now does with iMac RAM, for instance when compared to market price at sites like Amazon. Do not get me wrong. I love the Mac, but Apple does not do it right sometimes. And this is a positive criticism to make happy customers and boost market share.
    What planet are you from? Because here on earth, USBC is a standard port. 

    And comparing MBP components with Amazon crap is rich. As if. 

    Lastly, you seem to be routinely asking for installable DIY components in the slimmest, lightest, most power efficient, longest lasting notebooks on our planet – not going to happen. Ever. Just stop. Buy a Dell. 
    radarthekatwilliamlondonmwhitemacxpressbrucemcpscooter63dewmechiawatto_cobrajSnively
  • Reply 5 of 175
    sphericspheric Posts: 1,524member
    I don't seem to reed it in this article. Is this a winner, or is it an OK laptop for a very high price?
    "If you need oomph plus portability, get a MacBook Pro. If processing power and RAM are first in your mind, get a 4K or 5K iMac for fewer bucks than a less powerful MacBook Pro will cost. Otherwise, wait to drop $5,000 or more on an iMac Pro.

    Score 4.5 out of 5."


    mwhitebrucemcwatto_cobra
  • Reply 6 of 175
    avon b7avon b7 Posts: 2,203member
    For me, everything starts with price. It doesn't matter how great something is if I can't afford it. One of the most absurd comments I've heard on the subject is to save for longer. Sigh.

    Next problem is what you get for the price. Again, it doesn't matter how great something is if you don't really need it. Some people love retina screens but I could get by easily with non retina. Same for soldered RAM/SSD. Once again, I could get by without the fastest options if flexibility were factored into the offer. The option to upgrade down the line is something I have always taken advantage of.

    Thinness? This is probably a Jony Ive obsession which I can easily live without if accessibility and longer battery life are the end result. The previous line was already thin. Having the battery glued to the upper casing is something I could also do without and after repeated use in different stores I still dislike the keyboard.

    Touch Bar and Touch ID? For the added cost that comes with it, I could easily do without both. At the end of the day they are convenience items. Nothing more.

    So what we have is an expensive (no other word for it) base system that could easily cost far less and which you have to BTO at current Apple pricing pushing the price even higher.

    I haven't bought a laptop for a few years now and my current upgraded Macs have new blood in them. I will not be buying into this line until prices come down and/or ugradeability is looked at with a new corporate perspective.

    People will say something stupid like 'Apple doesn't cater to me'. That is irrelevant. Apple caters to sales. It seems clear that new MBP sales didn't fly off the charts. There was pent up demand and that was quenched. We will see what Apple does in the future if sales flatten out. After many people claiming the MBA was eol, that wasn't the case. Just as it wasn't the case that anything not USB-C was 'legacy'. 

    Apple put itself into a pigeon hole. If people are willing to buy into the sealed up, glued in, BTO at purchase, short warranty, expensive laptop, that's their decision. Mine is to pass.

    The question is how many others pass or not. 


    zoetmbirelandtoranaga
  • Reply 7 of 175
    mwhitemwhite Posts: 136member
    avon b7 said:
    For me, everything starts with price. It doesn't matter how great something is if I can't afford it. One of the most absurd comments I've heard on the subject is to save for longer. Sigh.

    Next problem is what you get for the price. Again, it doesn't matter how great something is if you don't really need it. Some people love retina screens but I could get by easily with non retina. Same for soldered RAM/SSD. Once again, I could get by without the fastest options if flexibility were factored into the offer. The option to upgrade down the line is something I have always taken advantage of.

    Thinness? This is probably a Jony Ive obsession which I can easily live without if accessibility and longer battery life are the end result. The previous line was already thin. Having the battery glued to the upper casing is something I could also do without and after repeated use in different stores I still dislike the keyboard.

    Touch Bar and Touch ID? For the added cost that comes with it, I could easily do without both. At the end of the day they are convenience items. Nothing more.

    So what we have is an expensive (no other word for it) base system that could easily cost far less and which you have to BTO at current Apple pricing pushing the price even higher.

    I haven't bought a laptop for a few years now and my current upgraded Macs have new blood in them. I will not be buying into this line until prices come down and/or ugradeability is looked at with a new corporate perspective.

    People will say something stupid like 'Apple doesn't cater to me'. That is irrelevant. Apple caters to sales. It seems clear that new MBP sales didn't fly off the charts. There was pent up demand and that was quenched. We will see what Apple does in the future if sales flatten out. After many people claiming the MBA was eol, that wasn't the case. Just as it wasn't the case that anything not USB-C was 'legacy'. 

    Apple put itself into a pigeon hole. If people are willing to buy into the sealed up, glued in, BTO at purchase, short warranty, expensive laptop, that's their decision. Mine is to pass.

    The question is how many others pass or not. 


    Good that you pass you would not be happy with a Mac so go on to a different computer that won't last as long as a Apple computer. With Apple you get your money's worth.
    brucemcpscooter63chiawatto_cobratzm41magman1979StrangeDaysschlack
  • Reply 8 of 175
    lkrupplkrupp Posts: 5,990member
    appex said:
    Why not tell the full story? MacBook Pro is great (albeit expensive), but Apple should use standard ports and connectors, not soldered proprietary components. Apple should allow to use custom SSD for instance, like the awesome Samsung 960 PRO SSD. Besides not charging two to three times more for them, as now does with iMac RAM, for instance when compared to market price at sites like Amazon. Do not get me wrong. I love the Mac, but Apple does not do it right sometimes. And this is a positive criticism to make happy customers and boost market share.
    By your logic in this post Apple NEVER does anything right. And taking your “requirements” into mind why would you buy any Apple product? So no, you don’t love the Mac.
    macxpressmwhitebrucemcwilliamlondonwatto_cobratzm41StrangeDays
  • Reply 9 of 175
    jdwjdw Posts: 592member
    Fulfilling the promise?

    Let's see...
    • Smaller battery to make the case as thin as Mr. Ive alone wanted
    • No internal SD card slot, necessitating the need for a stupid dongle
    • Not even 1 legacy USB-A connector, necessitating the need for another dongle or adapter
    • No MagSafe = NotSafe
    • No LED on power connector
    • Trackpad so large you need extremely advanced palm rejection to make it usable
    • No illuminated Apple logo on back
    • Still no 32GB of RAM

    Yeah, that's fulfilling a promise alright.

    And before the status-quo-at-Cupertino defenders start to take issue with me, consider well I speak of the 15" model, which has plenty of space to have accommodated 1 legacy USB-A port and an SD card slot.  At the very least they should have done that.  USB-C won't be seen "pretty much everywhere" for at least another 3-5 years.  Having one legacy USB-A port would have been the right thing to do, to slowly transition the machine into the future.  And as to SD cards, they are no going anywhere, not even 5 years hence.  The remove of that was just a stupid over simplification.  And I say this as someone who tends to like Apple's simplifications.

    Last November I turned a blind eye to the above deficiencies and placed an order for the 2016 MBP 15", top-end spec.  After a month of waiting, I could wait no more so I cancelled the order and found a top-end late 2015 edition rMBP 15" with dGPU.  I bought that and until a week ago did not regret that decision.  Now after a merely 5 light wipe-downs of the screen, the anti-glare coating is starting to come off as shown in my video here:



    I used to think Apple was an exception to the rule when one thought about "American Made."  You know what I mean.  American cars compared to Japanese cars being no comparison in that American cars break down far more.  Yet in years past I always thought Apple in a class of its own.  Then I bought a late 2009 iMac and had the video card die just after the AppleCare expired, and it took an email to Tim Cook to get it fixed, which I appreciate.  But 3 years after the video card swap the same problem happened, prompting me to perform a DIY fix as shown here:



    I love Apple, yet Apple pisses me off too.  Boy do they piss me off.  Especially the stupid delimitation problem even on the last good rMBP (the 2015 edition).  Joining the Staingate FaceBook page I see people who are on their 3 screen and still have the same problem, which means Apple never fixed the problem.  And who knows if the 2016 and 2017 rMBP's have that problem too.  Yet I've never had such delimitation problems on any iOS device, despite my having cleaned them in a more harsh way (rubbing my iPad on my T-shirt, etc.).  If Apple can make decent iOS devices, what's the deal with the low Mac quality?

    I've also owned a variety of Macs since my first Mac, the 128k, in 1984.  Macs of old were truly built like tanks and even now I have my vintage Macs like the SE/30 going strong.  But more modern Macs are of a different level of quality.

    Low quality Macs Apple won't fix (replacing a screen that has a delimitation problem with another screen that will potential have the same problem is no fix at all), coupled with gutted "pro" machines (read the caveat list above) makes me sick to my stomach.  I want to continue to love my favorite computer maker, but what in the world is wrong with Apple?  Why can't all that money, all those employees, and all that sheer brainpower produce a level of quality in their computers that matches the price?  The previous poster said, "With Apple you get your money's worth."  More than 10 years ago, I would have agreed.  But as I've said, Macs in recent years are not necessarily one's that give you your money's worth.  And it saddens me terribly to say that.  Indeed, I want Apple to change that, while making it right with all the customers who have been plagued with problems.

    Sorry for the rant.  I'm just frustrated to tears.
    edited June 2017 avon b7xzuwilliamlondonnubuspalominetoranaga
  • Reply 10 of 175
    avon b7avon b7 Posts: 2,203member
    mwhite said:
    avon b7 said:
    For me, everything starts with price. It doesn't matter how great something is if I can't afford it. One of the most absurd comments I've heard on the subject is to save for longer. Sigh.

    Next problem is what you get for the price. Again, it doesn't matter how great something is if you don't really need it. Some people love retina screens but I could get by easily with non retina. Same for soldered RAM/SSD. Once again, I could get by without the fastest options if flexibility were factored into the offer. The option to upgrade down the line is something I have always taken advantage of.

    Thinness? This is probably a Jony Ive obsession which I can easily live without if accessibility and longer battery life are the end result. The previous line was already thin. Having the battery glued to the upper casing is something I could also do without and after repeated use in different stores I still dislike the keyboard.

    Touch Bar and Touch ID? For the added cost that comes with it, I could easily do without both. At the end of the day they are convenience items. Nothing more.

    So what we have is an expensive (no other word for it) base system that could easily cost far less and which you have to BTO at current Apple pricing pushing the price even higher.

    I haven't bought a laptop for a few years now and my current upgraded Macs have new blood in them. I will not be buying into this line until prices come down and/or ugradeability is looked at with a new corporate perspective.

    People will say something stupid like 'Apple doesn't cater to me'. That is irrelevant. Apple caters to sales. It seems clear that new MBP sales didn't fly off the charts. There was pent up demand and that was quenched. We will see what Apple does in the future if sales flatten out. After many people claiming the MBA was eol, that wasn't the case. Just as it wasn't the case that anything not USB-C was 'legacy'. 

    Apple put itself into a pigeon hole. If people are willing to buy into the sealed up, glued in, BTO at purchase, short warranty, expensive laptop, that's their decision. Mine is to pass.

    The question is how many others pass or not. 


    Good that you pass you would not be happy with a Mac so go on to a different computer that won't last as long as a Apple computer. With Apple you get your money's worth.
    That's impossible to know with the late 2016 re-design. It also wouldn't be good if I'm not alone with my resistance and users are holding off in numbers. When the one or two year standard warranties expire we will begin to see how people fare. Some BTO early adopters were faced with weeks without their machines while completely new ones were put together. The ones they bought were unrepairable or the tools necessary for repair were not available. In November this year we will be able to start gauging out of warranty failures and how people feel about them. We will also be able to compare MBP and BTO pricing of last year with this year's and evaluate if it was a good deal to pay between 3,000-5,000 dollars for a three to five year investment. I'm sure that some users would have preferred to wait for this refresh if they had known it was coming. And to think people were insisting that the incorporation of the newest processors would only produce minimal gains. In the end, this refresh has seen enough gains to make some rethink their decisions.



  • Reply 11 of 175
    mwhitemwhite Posts: 136member
    jdw said:
    Fulfilling the promise?

    Let's see...
    • Smaller battery to make the case as thin as Mr. Ive alone wanted
    • No internal SD card slot, necessitating the need for a stupid dongle
    • Not even 1 legacy USB-A connector, necessitating the need for another dongle or adapter
    • No MagSafe = NotSafe
    • No LED on power connector
    • Trackpad so large you need extremely advanced palm rejection to make it usable
    • No illuminated Apple logo on back
    • Still no 32GB of RAM

    Yeah, that's fulfilling a promise alright.

    And before the status-quo-at-Cupertino defenders start to take issue with me, consider well I speak of the 15" model, which has plenty of space to have accommodated 1 legacy USB-A port and an SD card slot.  At the very least they should have done that.  USB-C won't be seen "pretty much everywhere" for at least another 3-5 years.  Having one legacy USB-A port would have been the right thing to do, to slowly transition the machine into the future.  And as to SD cards, they are no going anywhere, not even 5 years hence.  The remove of that was just a stupid over simplification.  And I say this as someone who tends to like Apple's simplifications.

    Last November I turned a blind eye to the above deficiencies and placed an order for the 2016 MBP 15", top-end spec.  After a month of waiting, I could wait no more so I cancelled the order and found a top-end late 2015 edition rMBP 15" with dGPU.  I bought that and until a week ago did not regret that decision.  Now after a merely 5 light wipe-downs of the screen, the anti-glare coating is starting to come off as shown in my video here:



    I used to think Apple was an exception to the rule when one thought about "American Made."  You know what I mean.  American cars compared to Japanese cars being no comparison in that American cars break down far more.  Yet in years past I always thought Apple in a class of its own.  Then I bought a late 2009 iMac and had the video card die just after the AppleCare expired, and it took an email to Tim Cook to get it fixed, which I appreciate.  But 3 years after the video card swap the same problem happened, prompting me to perform a DIY fix as shown here:



    I love Apple, yet Apple pisses me off too.  Boy do they piss me off.  Especially the stupid delimitation problem even on the last good rMBP (the 2015 edition).  Joining the Staingate FaceBook page I see people who are on their 3 screen and still have the same problem, which means Apple never fixed the problem.  And who knows if the 2016 and 2017 rMBP's have that problem too.  Yet I've never had such delimitation problems on any iOS device, despite my having cleaned them in a more harsh way (rubbing my iPad on my T-shirt, etc.).  If Apple can make decent iOS devices, what's the deal with the low Mac quality?

    I've also owned a variety of Macs since my first Mac, the 128k, in 1984.  Macs of old were truly built like tanks and even now I have my vintage Macs like the SE/30 going strong.  But more modern Macs are of a different level of quality.

    Low quality Macs Apple won't fix (replacing a screen that has a delimitation problem with another screen that will potential have the same problem is no fix at all), coupled with gutted "pro" machines (read the caveat list above) makes me sick to my stomach.  I want to continue to love my favorite computer maker, but what in the world is wrong with Apple?  Why can't all that money, all those employees, and all that sheer brainpower produce a level of quality in their computers that matches the price?  The previous poster said, "With Apple you get your money's worth."  More than 10 years ago, I would have agreed.  But as I've said, Macs in recent years are not necessarily one's that give you your money's worth.  And it saddens me terribly to say that.  Indeed, I want Apple to change that, while making it right with all the customers who have been plagued with problems.

    Sorry for the rant.  I'm just frustrated to tears.
    Garbage.....
    lkrupppscooter63chiawilliamlondonmejsricwatto_cobramagman1979Rayz2016nubus
  • Reply 12 of 175
    slurpyslurpy Posts: 4,995member
    avon b7 said:
    For me, everything starts with price. It doesn't matter how great something is if I can't afford it. One of the most absurd comments I've heard on the subject is to save for longer. Sigh.

    Next problem is what you get for the price. Again, it doesn't matter how great something is if you don't really need it. Some people love retina screens but I could get by easily with non retina. Same for soldered RAM/SSD. Once again, I could get by without the fastest options if flexibility were factored into the offer. The option to upgrade down the line is something I have always taken advantage of.

    Thinness? This is probably a Jony Ive obsession which I can easily live without if accessibility and longer battery life are the end result. The previous line was already thin. Having the battery glued to the upper casing is something I could also do without and after repeated use in different stores I still dislike the keyboard.

    Touch Bar and Touch ID? For the added cost that comes with it, I could easily do without both. At the end of the day they are convenience items. Nothing more.

    So what we have is an expensive (no other word for it) base system that could easily cost far less and which you have to BTO at current Apple pricing pushing the price even higher.

    I haven't bought a laptop for a few years now and my current upgraded Macs have new blood in them. I will not be buying into this line until prices come down and/or ugradeability is looked at with a new corporate perspective.

    People will say something stupid like 'Apple doesn't cater to me'. That is irrelevant. Apple caters to sales. It seems clear that new MBP sales didn't fly off the charts. There was pent up demand and that was quenched. We will see what Apple does in the future if sales flatten out. After many people claiming the MBA was eol, that wasn't the case. Just as it wasn't the case that anything not USB-C was 'legacy'. 

    Apple put itself into a pigeon hole. If people are willing to buy into the sealed up, glued in, BTO at purchase, short warranty, expensive laptop, that's their decision. Mine is to pass.

    The question is how many others pass or not. 


    A long rant to say very little. Apple doesn't make cheap trash. This has always been the case, and hopefully always will be. You have a thousand other pc companies for that. Just go buy one of those products instead of whining and saying you don't want any of the features that make a macbook a macbook, like high resolution screens and amazing build quality. 

    jdw said:
    Fulfilling the promise?

    Let's see...
    • Smaller battery to make the case as thin as Mr. Ive alone wanted
    • No internal SD card slot, necessitating the need for a stupid dongle
    • Not even 1 legacy USB-A connector, necessitating the need for another dongle or adapter
    • No MagSafe = NotSafe
    • No LED on power connector
    • Trackpad so large you need extremely advanced palm rejection to make it usable
    • No illuminated Apple logo on back
    • Still no 32GB of RAM

    Yeah, that's fulfilling a promise alright. 
    Wow, it really must be an amazing machine if those are the worst criticisms you can find. You're really, really reaching with most of these and it's clear you're finding excuses to hate on it and push a narrative. 
    • Smaller battery to make the case as thin as Mr. Ive alone wanted: And? The MBP gets better battery life than previous models, and best in the industry. Isn't that what matters? Literally 90% of the inside is battery. Why is 10hrs not enough for you?
    • No internal SD card slot, necessitating the need for a stupid dongle: It doesn't "necessitate" a dongle for people who don't use SD cards. I'm glad Apple did this, I don't want ports wasting internal space that I'll NEVER use. And for people like you who need one, a $10 adapter does the job. USB-C/Thunderbolt 3 ports make this machine insanely versatile.
    • Not even 1 legacy USB-A connector, necessitating the need for another dongle or adapter: Yes, Apple using the absolute best ports available is a "bad" thing. Thank God Apple has the guts to move forward to aggressively motivate , instead of clinging on to old technology for decades. It's good for the industry, whether you want to admit it or not. As someone who apparently needs 32GB of RAM, you'd think you'd appreciate insane transfer speeds, or fact that you can now use eGPUs, or plug in multiple 4K/5K monitors + charging using a single cable. But these advantages don't fit in your narrative, so you'll pretend they don't exist. 
    • No MagSafe = NotSafe: Magsafe was nice, but being able to plug in the power on any side and have that double as a connector is even nicer and more convenient. 
    • No LED on power connector: I doubt anyone besides you cares about this
    • Trackpad so large you need extremely advanced palm rejection to make it usable: A large trackpad is now a negative, gotcha! Also, in every single review I've read there wasn't a SINGLE critisism about palm rejection not working. Again, a made up complaint. 
    • No illuminated Apple logo on back: Personally, I'd prefer the logo not blind everyone else in a dark room, and I'm sure millions of others will appreciate that too. There is literally zero benefit of a glowing logo. Another made up "problem". 
    • Still no 32GB of RAM: I'd love to know what you need 32GB of RAM for. 
    Not a single one of those bullets points to something actually "wrong" with the machine, just your own personal preferences, most of which have to do with wanting Apple to be stuck in the past. As for your screen issue, instead of whining for paragraphs I'm 100% positive you can get it replaced under warranty. Believe it or not, these issues can happen no matter how much QC there is. Technology is not perfect, and Apple's stuff was NOT more reliable or solid in the past, despite how much dishonest revisionist history the "Apple is doomed" people like you use. 
    edited June 2017 mwhitekruegdudebrucemcpscooter63chiawilliamlondonsphericmejsricwatto_cobramagman1979
  • Reply 13 of 175
    kruegdudekruegdude Posts: 128member
    slurpy said:
    avon b7 said:
    For me, everything starts with price. It doesn't matter how great something is if I can't afford it. One of the most absurd comments I've heard on the subject is to save for longer. Sigh.

    Next problem is what you get for the price. Again, it doesn't matter how great something is if you don't really need it. Some people love retina screens but I could get by easily with non retina. Same for soldered RAM/SSD. Once again, I could get by without the fastest options if flexibility were factored into the offer. The option to upgrade down the line is something I have always taken advantage of.

    Thinness? This is probably a Jony Ive obsession which I can easily live without if accessibility and longer battery life are the end result. The previous line was already thin. Having the battery glued to the upper casing is something I could also do without and after repeated use in different stores I still dislike the keyboard.

    Touch Bar and Touch ID? For the added cost that comes with it, I could easily do without both. At the end of the day they are convenience items. Nothing more.

    So what we have is an expensive (no other word for it) base system that could easily cost far less and which you have to BTO at current Apple pricing pushing the price even higher.

    I haven't bought a laptop for a few years now and my current upgraded Macs have new blood in them. I will not be buying into this line until prices come down and/or ugradeability is looked at with a new corporate perspective.

    People will say something stupid like 'Apple doesn't cater to me'. That is irrelevant. Apple caters to sales. It seems clear that new MBP sales didn't fly off the charts. There was pent up demand and that was quenched. We will see what Apple does in the future if sales flatten out. After many people claiming the MBA was eol, that wasn't the case. Just as it wasn't the case that anything not USB-C was 'legacy'. 

    Apple put itself into a pigeon hole. If people are willing to buy into the sealed up, glued in, BTO at purchase, short warranty, expensive laptop, that's their decision. Mine is to pass.

    The question is how many others pass or not. 


    A long rant to say very little. Apple doesn't make cheap trash. This has always been the case, and hopefully always will be. You have a thousand other pc companies for that. Just go buy one of those products instead of whining and saying you don't want any of the features that make a macbook a macbook, like high resolution screens and amazing build quality. 

    jdw said:
    Fulfilling the promise?

    Let's see...
    • Smaller battery to make the case as thin as Mr. Ive alone wanted
    • No internal SD card slot, necessitating the need for a stupid dongle
    • Not even 1 legacy USB-A connector, necessitating the need for another dongle or adapter
    • No MagSafe = NotSafe
    • No LED on power connector
    • Trackpad so large you need extremely advanced palm rejection to make it usable
    • No illuminated Apple logo on back
    • Still no 32GB of RAM

    Yeah, that's fulfilling a promise alright. 
    Wow, it really must be an amazing machine if those are the worst criticisms you can find. You're really, really reaching with most of these and it's clear you're finding excuses to hate on it and push a narrative. 
    • Smaller battery to make the case as thin as Mr. Ive alone wanted: And? The MBP gets better battery life than previous models, and best in the industry. Isn't that what matters? Literally 90% of the inside is battery. Why is 10hrs not enough for you?
    • No internal SD card slot, necessitating the need for a stupid dongle: It doesn't "necessitate" a dongle for people who don't use SD cards. I'm glad Apple did this, I don't want ports wasting internal space that I'll NEVER use. And for people like you who need one, a $10 adapter does the job. USB-C/Thunderbolt 3 ports make this machine insanely versatile.
    • Not even 1 legacy USB-A connector, necessitating the need for another dongle or adapter: Yes, Apple using the absolute best ports available is a "bad" thing. Thank God Apple has the guts to move forward to aggressively motivate , instead of clinging on to old technology for decades. It's good for the industry, whether you want to admit it or not. As someone who apparently needs 32GB of RAM, you'd think you'd appreciate insane transfer speeds, or fact that you can now use eGPUs, or plug in multiple 4K/5K monitors + charging using a single cable. But these advantages don't fit in your narrative, so you'll pretend they don't exist. 
    • No MagSafe = NotSafe: Magsafe was nice, but being able to plug in the power on any side and have that double as a connector is even nicer and more convenient. 
    • No LED on power connector: I doubt anyone besides you cares about this
    • Trackpad so large you need extremely advanced palm rejection to make it usable: A large trackpad is now a negative, gotcha! Also, in every single review I've read there wasn't a SINGLE critisism about palm rejection not working. Again, a made up complaint. 
    • No illuminated Apple logo on back: Personally, I'd prefer the logo not blind everyone else in a dark room, and I'm sure millions of others will appreciate that too. There is literally zero benefit of a glowing logo. Another made up "problem". 
    • Still no 32GB of RAM: I'd love to know what you need 32GB of RAM for. 
    Not a single one of those bullets points to something actually "wrong" with the machine, just your own personal preferences, most of which have to do with wanting Apple to be stuck in the past. As for your screen issue, instead of whining for paragraphs I'm 100% positive you can get it replaced under warranty. Believe it or not, these issues can happen no matter how much QC there is. Technology is not perfect, and Apple's stuff was NOT more reliable or solid in the past, despite how much dishonest revisionist history the "Apple is doomed" people like you use. 
    I signed in to comment and found that you've already done a better job. Thanks! :-)
    xzupscooter63williamlondonsphericwatto_cobramagman1979StrangeDays
  • Reply 14 of 175
    jdwjdw Posts: 592member
    The previous 3 posts are but a defense of the status quo.  The remarks made do little to push humanity forward and merely gloss over legitimate points of concern, reinterpreting them as "no problems at all."  

    People in online forums could use a bit more empathy along the lines of, "I may now agree with you on all points, but we both love Apple.  Even though many people may join you in your opinion, here's why I prefer the new machine."  Beating someone when they are down with a sledgehammer of "garbage" is just plain horrid.  Wherefore art though, Civility?

    williamlondonirelandnubustoranaga
  • Reply 15 of 175
    Mike WuertheleMike Wuerthele Posts: 2,672administrator
    appex said:
    Why not tell the full story? MacBook Pro is great (albeit expensive), but Apple should use standard ports and connectors, not soldered proprietary components. Apple should allow to use custom SSD for instance, like the awesome Samsung 960 PRO SSD. Besides not charging two to three times more for them, as now does with iMac RAM, for instance when compared to market price at sites like Amazon. Do not get me wrong. I love the Mac, but Apple does not do it right sometimes. And this is a positive criticism to make happy customers and boost market share.
    They are. LPDDR isn't socketed, and is standard. The "awesome" 960 Pro SSD you're speaking of is half the speed of the storage in the MBP. USB-C is standard.

    Adding socketed RAM and replaceable SSDs to the 15-inch won't boost marketshare in any significant way. Believing it will because you, yourself want it (and to be fair, I wouldn't mind it) flies in the face of facts.
    edited June 2017 kruegdudebrucemcmacxpressSolicgWerksmwhitepscooter63dewmechiawilliamlondon
  • Reply 16 of 175
    GeorgeBMacGeorgeBMac Posts: 2,234member
    avon b7 said:
    For me, everything starts with price. It doesn't matter how great something is if I can't afford it. One of the most absurd comments I've heard on the subject is to save for longer. Sigh.

    Next problem is what you get for the price. Again, it doesn't matter how great something is if you don't really need it. Some people love retina screens but I could get by easily with non retina. Same for soldered RAM/SSD. Once again, I could get by without the fastest options if flexibility were factored into the offer. The option to upgrade down the line is something I have always taken advantage of.

    Thinness? This is probably a Jony Ive obsession which I can easily live without if accessibility and longer battery life are the end result. The previous line was already thin. Having the battery glued to the upper casing is something I could also do without and after repeated use in different stores I still dislike the keyboard.

    Touch Bar and Touch ID? For the added cost that comes with it, I could easily do without both. At the end of the day they are convenience items. Nothing more.

    So what we have is an expensive (no other word for it) base system that could easily cost far less and which you have to BTO at current Apple pricing pushing the price even higher.

    I haven't bought a laptop for a few years now and my current upgraded Macs have new blood in them. I will not be buying into this line until prices come down and/or ugradeability is looked at with a new corporate perspective.

    People will say something stupid like 'Apple doesn't cater to me'. That is irrelevant. Apple caters to sales. It seems clear that new MBP sales didn't fly off the charts. There was pent up demand and that was quenched. We will see what Apple does in the future if sales flatten out. After many people claiming the MBA was eol, that wasn't the case. Just as it wasn't the case that anything not USB-C was 'legacy'. 

    Apple put itself into a pigeon hole. If people are willing to buy into the sealed up, glued in, BTO at purchase, short warranty, expensive laptop, that's their decision. Mine is to pass.

    The question is how many others pass or not. 


    Compromise always sucks because it involves, well, compromise....
    Power vs portability
    Price vs functionality
    ... are at the top of the list...
    williamlondonwatto_cobraStrangeDays
  • Reply 17 of 175
    Mike WuertheleMike Wuerthele Posts: 2,672administrator
    One at a time:

    1 - Not just Mr. Ive. The majority of the purchasing population.
    2 - A good USB-C to USB-B cable is about $8. A USB-A to USB-B cable is about $5.
    3 - See #2.
    4 - Disagree with your assessment, but I expect mileage may vary. 
    5 - So what? The OS does a pretty good job of letting me know when its charging.
    6 - Yup, palm rejection. It works, too.
    7 - The illuminated Apple logo was from light bleed on the old screens. I'm not certain why this is a failure.
    8 - See also #1, and Kaby Lake's limitations in this regard, that we've been telling you all about for eight months.

    You know full well that Apple doesn't have meetings to see who they can piss off next. They have meetings on how to advance what the company wants, while at the same time, retaining or growing its user base.

    I get what you want, and why you want it. I'm not saying that I don't want some things that the machine doesn't have.

    But -- one more time -- We are not Apple's target market anymore, and they owe us nothing. 

    Be mad. Tell Apple corporate what you like and what you don't -- you are doing that, right, and not just howling into the void or venting at Apple retail people? 

    Just don't expect them to bend to your will, or decide that the 1% of the 12% deserve more than 0.001 percent of Apple's attention.

    Apple made a promise in the line's refresh, and it refined it in this iteration. It just didn't make that promise to you.
    jdw said:
    Fulfilling the promise?

    Let's see...
    • Smaller battery to make the case as thin as Mr. Ive alone wanted
    • No internal SD card slot, necessitating the need for a stupid dongle
    • Not even 1 legacy USB-A connector, necessitating the need for another dongle or adapter
    • No MagSafe = NotSafe
    • No LED on power connector
    • Trackpad so large you need extremely advanced palm rejection to make it usable
    • No illuminated Apple logo on back
    • Still no 32GB of RAM
    edited June 2017 kruegdudeSolipscooter63chiawilliamlondonwatto_cobraStrangeDaysslprescott
  • Reply 18 of 175
    Mike WuertheleMike Wuerthele Posts: 2,672administrator
    jdw said:
    The previous 3 posts are but a defense of the status quo.  The remarks made do little to push humanity forward and merely gloss over legitimate points of concern, reinterpreting them as "no problems at all."  

    People in online forums could use a bit more empathy along the lines of, "I may now agree with you on all points, but we both love Apple.  Even though many people may join you in your opinion, here's why I prefer the new machine."  Beating someone when they are down with a sledgehammer of "garbage" is just plain horrid.  Wherefore art though, Civility?

    Good:
    "Here's why I don't like the MacBook Pro, and won't buy it."

    Bad:
    "The MacBook Pro's lack of a/inclusion of _____ will drive the company into the ground, and marketshare will EXPLODE if they include/cut out _____."
    Solilkruppmwhitepscooter63dewmechiawilliamlondonwatto_cobramagman1979GeorgeBMac
  • Reply 19 of 175
    appex said:
    Why not tell the full story? MacBook Pro is great (albeit expensive), but Apple should use standard ports and connectors, not soldered proprietary components. Apple should allow to use custom SSD for instance, like the awesome Samsung 960 PRO SSD. Besides not charging two to three times more for them, as now does with iMac RAM, for instance when compared to market price at sites like Amazon. Do not get me wrong. I love the Mac, but Apple does not do it right sometimes. And this is a positive criticism to make happy customers and boost market share.
    They are. LPDDR isn't socketed, and is standard. The "awesome" 960 Pro SSD you're speaking of is half the speed of the storage in the MBP. USB-C is standard.

    Adding socketed RAM and replaceable SSDs to the 15-inch won't boost marketshare in any significant way. Believing it will because you, yourself want it (and to be fair, I wouldn't mind it) flies in the face of facts.
    Sorry Mike for pros (this is labelled such) flexibility would seem basic, for some investing in higher capacity vs the crazy fast & crazy pricey Apple ransom drive, at perhaps $1k per seat, or the 32GB ram portable desktop vs 'all day' battery life...

    How does this serve Apple? By ransoming power users to buy 2 machines perhaps, making iCloud more compelling, or indispensable, despite being illegal in some jurisdictions? The whole thing feels surreptitiously unhelpful to the pro customer...

    As I've said before one cannot now even delete Photos now from MacOS. Really? Since when did an auto image tagging consumer grade photos app belong on a pro user machine? Why can't photos be deleted from contact manager...? Is AI trolling being baked in?

    In the past pro macs were upgraded roughly every 3 years with Applecare here - that stopped with the 'onboard' approach, fixed iMac mounts, pentilobe screws and the take it or leave it stance, with the last 2 test mbp designs being sent back, so literally thousands of dollars per seat stopped flowing to Apple, despite the logic of optimizing speed by more closely matching the memory... Every pro mac here has had ram and drives upgraded over time. It is so bloody basic.

    By all means offer top tier, yet would such be better simply as a BTO, to actually serve the customer...?  One might hope...

    edited June 2017 williamlondon
  • Reply 20 of 175
    Mike WuertheleMike Wuerthele Posts: 2,672administrator
    appex said:
    Why not tell the full story? MacBook Pro is great (albeit expensive), but Apple should use standard ports and connectors, not soldered proprietary components. Apple should allow to use custom SSD for instance, like the awesome Samsung 960 PRO SSD. Besides not charging two to three times more for them, as now does with iMac RAM, for instance when compared to market price at sites like Amazon. Do not get me wrong. I love the Mac, but Apple does not do it right sometimes. And this is a positive criticism to make happy customers and boost market share.
    They are. LPDDR isn't socketed, and is standard. The "awesome" 960 Pro SSD you're speaking of is half the speed of the storage in the MBP. USB-C is standard.

    Adding socketed RAM and replaceable SSDs to the 15-inch won't boost marketshare in any significant way. Believing it will because you, yourself want it (and to be fair, I wouldn't mind it) flies in the face of facts.
    Sorry Mike for pros (this is labelled such) flexibility would seem basic, for some investing in higher capacity vs the crazy fast & crazy pricey Apple ransom drive, at perhaps $1k per seat, or the 32GB ram portable desktop vs 'all day' battery life...

    How does this serve Apple? By ransoming power users to buy 2 machines perhaps, making iCloud more compelling, or indispensable, despite being illegal in some jurisdictions? The whole thing feels surreptitiously unhelpful to the pro customer...

    As I've said before one cannot now even delete Photos now from MacOS. Really? Since when did an auto image tagging consumer grade photos app belong on a pro user machine? Why can't photos be deleted from contact manager...? Is AI trolling being baked in?

    In the past pro macs were upgraded roughly every 3 years with Applecare here - that stopped with the 'onboard' approach, fixed iMac mounts, pentilobe screws and the take it or leave it stance, with the last 2 test mbp designs being sent back, so literally thousands of dollars per seat stopped flowing to Apple, despite the logic of optimizing speed by more closely matching the memory... Every pro mac here has had ram and drives upgraded over time. It is so bloody basic.

    By all means offer top tier, yet would such be better simply as a BTO, to actually serve the customer...?  One might hope...

    You're misunderstanding what I'm saying. I am on record in saying that I'd be good with those additions. I'm also on record for being a realist about it. In 1997, the Apple "faithful" for lack of a better word, were 80% of its business. In 2007, about 40 percent. In 2017, despite selling more Macs in a year than it ever has before, we are 12 percent.

    So, what does reality say? It says that Apple has other priorities. Would these things be great for AppleInsider readers and writers? Yup.

    Any guesses on what percentage of Apple users are AI readers? Heck, I'm pretty sure that we don't even capture 1 percent of the Mac-using population.

    How does this serve Apple? It serves Apple by building one machine to cater to very, very conservatively 90 percent of its Mac user base -- and the real number is probably closer to 99 percent. It has zero to do with forcing iCloud to be more compelling or other tinfoil hat theory on the matter. 

    Again, as always, I understand what you want. I know why you want it. It would be cool. But, as with just a few posts up, we are not Apple's target market anymore, and they owe us nothing.

    If all of us bought iMac Pros, it wouldn't even be a rounding error in sales numbers for the quarter. It would be lost in the noise of the quarter.

    None of these things that Apple is doing are conspiracies. It's not Apple spitting in your eye. It's just business.

    Anyway, gang. I'm off to smoke some pork and brisket. Have a nice weekend. 
    edited June 2017 xzupscooter63williamlondonsphericwatto_cobramagman1979xsmi
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