EU hammers Google with record $2.7 billion antitrust fine for illegal search manipulation

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  • Reply 121 of 150
    bshankbshank Posts: 256member
    foggyhill said:
    nht said:
    foggyhill said:
    nht said:
    clemynx said:
    ike17055 said:
    The European elites continue to demonstrate that they have no real understanding of free markets and competition. 
    Nonsense. This decision is precisely defending European consumers. Nothing elite about it. Quit defending megacorporations instead of actual consumers. 
    And the US should defend US companies from unfair EU fines.  We need to curbstomp the EU and maybe they will stop targeting US companies with these excessive fines.  It's a blatant money grab.

    Brussels wants us to not protect our steel industry from Chinese dumping because it might hurt them (this after imposing their own 73% tariffs on Chinese steel) and threatens us with "retaliation" if we do but hits US companies with huge fines based on worldwide earnings at the same time.  Fuck them.  Hit Europe as hard as possible with steel tariffs but let UK steel in.  Frankly if the EU want to sell us anything they can go through the UK.  That'll make them understand not to be total douches during Brexit.

    Let them try their "nuclear option".
    Right... Unfair, you do know they fine their own company just as much hey bud.
    Stating some baseless claims doesn't make it true.
    No, they don't "fine their own company just as much" which is why they call it a "record-breaking fine" as opposed to "the usual wrist-slap fine".

    "Apple ordered to pay a record-breaking €13bn".
    "Google hit with a record €2.4 billion fine".
    "EU issues a record $1.45B fine to Intel".

    So yes, stating some baseless claim doesn't make it true.  The EU hits US companies with huge record breaking fines that aren't levied on EU companies. 
    One is a god damn tax thing, it's as much a snub on Ireland as apple and apple will likely never pay, so get  a clue and stop lying. The fine is proportional to the size of the company, if the company is a smaller company with a non monopolistic position, they get hit less. How the hell is that hard to understand.
    btw, considering the us just levied 2 billion in tarifs annuallly on much smaller Canadian lumber companies as a protectionist measure without proof even (a 10 times higher levy), your whole spiel is laughable.
    It sounds like you don't know the definition of a monopoly. In the 90's Microsoft had Windows and IE pre-installed on PC's forgoing the rest of the options available so that people didn't even know about other options. Google is a website. All 4 search engines are installed in Apple products so people can choose. Not sure how Google holds a "monopoly" unless we're seriously stretching the definition of monopoly
    SpamSandwichgatorguyanton zuykov
  • Reply 122 of 150
    avon b7avon b7 Posts: 7,892member
    ike17055 said:
    avon b7 said:
    nht said:
    foggyhill said:
    nht said:
    foggyhill said:
    nht said:
    clemynx said:
    ike17055 said:
    The European elites continue to demonstrate that they have no real understanding of free markets and competition. 
    Nonsense. This decision is precisely defending European consumers. Nothing elite about it. Quit defending megacorporations instead of actual consumers. 
    And the US should defend US companies from unfair EU fines.  We need to curbstomp the EU and maybe they will stop targeting US companies with these excessive fines.  It's a blatant money grab.

    Brussels wants us to not protect our steel industry from Chinese dumping because it might hurt them (this after imposing their own 73% tariffs on Chinese steel) and threatens us with "retaliation" if we do but hits US companies with huge fines based on worldwide earnings at the same time.  Fuck them.  Hit Europe as hard as possible with steel tariffs but let UK steel in.  Frankly if the EU want to sell us anything they can go through the UK.  That'll make them understand not to be total douches during Brexit.

    Let them try their "nuclear option".
    Right... Unfair, you do know they fine their own company just as much hey bud.
    Stating some baseless claims doesn't make it true.
    No, they don't "fine their own company just as much" which is why they call it a "record-breaking fine" as opposed to "the usual wrist-slap fine".

    "Apple ordered to pay a record-breaking €13bn".
    "Google hit with a record €2.4 billion fine".
    "EU issues a record $1.45B fine to Intel".

    So yes, stating some baseless claim doesn't make it true.  The EU hits US companies with huge record breaking fines that aren't levied on EU companies. 
    One is a god damn tax thing, it's as much a snub on Ireland as apple and apple will likely never pay, so get  a clue and stop lying. The fine is proportional to the size of the company, if the company is a smaller company with a non monopolistic position, they get hit less. How the hell is that hard to understand.
    It's not hard to understand when you take it in the proper context:

    ""We don't want to become a digital colony of global internet giants," Montebourg said in May. "What's at stake is our sovereignty itself.""

    Döpfner warned: "Voluntary self-subjugation cannot be the last word from the Old World. On the contrary, the desire of the European digital economy to succeed could finally become something for European policy, which the EU has so sorely missed in the past few decades: an emotional narrative."

    The EU (via Juncker, Vestager and Oettinger) has declared war on US tech companies because EU tech companies are uncompetitive without an uneven playing field.  That hurts German and French sensibilities.
    Ehem. The EU hasn't declared war on anyone. It has taken decisions to give itself more homegrown technology and not depend as much on external technology

    That is why it is developing its own processors for initial use in supercomputing, but will further develop them for other uses.

    These are completely logical steps.
    Again, Europe is certainly free to pursue its national interest first and foremost.  In fact, that is the duty of every sovereign nation.  But please don't hide behind bogus EU rulings to do so.   You seem to be admitting that EU exists to bamboozle the world into thinking it is somehow "fair."

    So, if NATO is a sham to allow Europe to shortchange its defense by getting America to pay, and the EU is a sham to provide legal cover for protectionism, hmmmmm, why, oh why, would those Americans get the idea that a climate treaty that does not apply to the world's largest polluters is somehow, not on the up and up?? I wonder...


    Sorry but you lost me with that.
  • Reply 123 of 150
    SpamSandwichSpamSandwich Posts: 33,407member
    clemynx said:
    clemynx said:
    clemynx said:
    ike17055 said:
    The European elites continue to demonstrate that they have no real understanding of free markets and competition. 
    You could not be more wrong. Google has a virtual monopoly of search (>80%) so they have to play fairly. Promoting their own products and services above those of a competitor is an abuse of that market.  That gives a freer and more equal market than otherwise.

    Google has a large share of search because people are lazy and not well informed. That doesn't make them a monopoly. Plus, idiots voluntarily choose to buy cheap Android phones instead of Apple, so they are 100% responsible for contributing to the fortunes of Google.

    This is just the same old EU blackmailing tactics they've pulled on Apple, Microsoft and others.
    It's just a matter of perspective. 

    You think that the American dream is real and that customers have a choice. I think you are naive, that the American dream has been shown to be a lie, that the US are a big scam, that consumers only have the illusion of a choice and that big companies prey on their consumers. 
    All complete hogwash. No one is forced to buy or use any of the services in question here.

    Incapable EU politicians are poison to free markets.
    And here you prove that you do not get this at all. 
    This is not about end consumers. It's about competing companies that want to appear in search results and can't compete with Google Shopping's prominent placement. 
    Look, I know you're downvoting my replies. It still doesn't help your position.
    Oh my god, quit acting like a baby! 

    Back on on the subject, you proved you don't understand this problem. This has little to do with end consumers and everything to do with smaller shopping websites that can't compete with Google because Google advertises its products on its engine even when its products aren't the most relevant. 
    Bshank said it exactly right. It's Google's site, they paid billions of dollars to build it and maintain it, no one it forced to use it.
    bshankanton zuykov
  • Reply 124 of 150
    ike17055ike17055 Posts: 121member
    clemynx said:
    ike17055 said:
    clemynx said:
    It's just a matter of perspective. 

    You think that the American dream is real and that customers have a choice. I think you are naive, that the American dream has been shown to be a lie, that the US are a big scam, that consumers only have the illusion of a choice and that big companies prey on their consumers. 
    I live the the American dream everyday. The choices we have are truly astounding.the freedoms are incredible, if unfortunately under intense pressure of politicans who want us to be "more like Europe."  You have no clue what you are talking about. 

    More like Europe would be great. Let’s take France

    Work 35 hours per week
    5 weeks of paid vacation per year
    Paid medical leave
    Paid maternity leave for 3 months and paternity for 2 weeks
    Paid retirement at 63 
    Free healthcare for all
    Free ambulances 
    College at 600$ per year
    Better trains and public transportation 
    Better food
    Basically it's a paradise compared to the US. 
    Keep your version of paradise. I have been there. Your generous benefits are in part, affordable (but not really affordabke) through machinations and manipulations including short changing defense and taxing the crap out of initiative. The only reason you don't look like Puerto Rico right now is that America pays for Europe's defense disproportionately, and (largely American) tourist dollars provide a huge lift too. The labor situation in Europe is horrible, and job creation is largely stagnant, so even the home-growns (not to mention the "immigrants") suffer from lack of opportunity (except for welfare benefits) all because of the demands paying for the nanny state safety net.  in a few years, especialy if US defense committment wanes, a lot of what is "free" won't be available at all...and unless the BBC is lying, France does not appear to be paradise to a growing Muslim population that is disenfranchised and detached economically and politically. Troubles in Paradise. 
    tallest skilanton zuykov
  • Reply 125 of 150
    clemynxclemynx Posts: 1,552member

    ike17055 said:

    Perhaps EU leaders DESERVE to be insulted.  Diplomacy has gotten us nowhere for decades. Pay for your own defense. We are foing broke propping up your nanny state ways. 
    Wow, you seem to suffer from an acute trumpist syndrome. 

    In the real world, European leaders certainly do not deserve to be insulted. Diplomacy has made the world safer than it was for centuries. It’s troglodytes like Trump who want to bring it back to the Middle Ages with: 
    rejection of science (climate change)
    rejection of the balance of power (constant attacks on justice and the media)
    rejection of the people's wellbeing (removing healthcare from 22 million people)
    rejection of wisdom (a huge ignorant thinking Belgium was a city, Trump rejects the idea of learning)
    rejection of good manners (the sociopathic handshake)
    rejection of reality (all that is fake is real and vice versa, the inauguration crowd, the birth certificate, the election fraud, the wiretapping, the tapes, the kept Medicaid...)
  • Reply 126 of 150
    clemynxclemynx Posts: 1,552member
    gatorguy said:
    Which one of the participants is that meant for? :/
    Not you :)
  • Reply 127 of 150
    nhtnht Posts: 4,522member

    avon b7 said:
    nht said:

    It's not hard to understand when you take it in the proper context:

    ""We don't want to become a digital colony of global internet giants," Montebourg said in May. "What's at stake is our sovereignty itself.""

    Döpfner warned: "Voluntary self-subjugation cannot be the last word from the Old World. On the contrary, the desire of the European digital economy to succeed could finally become something for European policy, which the EU has so sorely missed in the past few decades: an emotional narrative."

    The EU (via Juncker, Vestager and Oettinger) has declared war on US tech companies because EU tech companies are uncompetitive without an uneven playing field.  That hurts German and French sensibilities.
    Ehem. The EU hasn't declared war on anyone. It has taken decisions to give itself more homegrown technology and not depend as much on external technology

    That is why it is developing its own processors for initial use in supercomputing, but will further develop them for other uses.

    These are completely logical steps.
    Then we won't be declaring trade war on anyone when we block EU steel sales so as to not depend as much on external sources of steel.

    Give it a rest.  Folks like Montebourg and Döpfner did declare war on US tech companies using such rhetoric as "colonization", "subjugation" and "sovereignty" and pushed Vestager into her slot via Juncker.  If Merkel hadn't shafted Cameron by backing Juncker life would have been much better for everyone.

    EU can go pound sand.  They installed as president the guy who said:
    • We decide on something, leave it lying around and wait and see what happens. If no one kicks up a fuss, because most people don't understand what has been decided, we continue step by step until there is no turning back.
    • "Britain is different. Of course there will be transfers of sovereignty. But would I be intelligent to draw the attention of public opinion to this fact?"
    • Monetary policy is a serious issue. We should discuss this in secret, in the Eurogroup [...] I'm ready to be insulted as being insufficiently democratic, but I want to be serious [...] I am for secret, dark debates.
    As a direct bitchslap to the UK and then acted all surprised and hurt when Brexit happened.
    anton zuykov
  • Reply 128 of 150
    SpamSandwichSpamSandwich Posts: 33,407member
    clemynx said:
    ike17055 said:
    clemynx said:
    ike17055 said:

    In fact, it is You who could not be more wrong. "Freer" and "more equal" are essentially contradictory in the marketplace. The freedom to succeed, or fail, is dependent largely on individual or organizational abilities and desire to exceed and outperform the practices of all others, not equality. The power of the consumer to choose ultimately picks the winner, not socialist interventions toward equality. This is the fundamental piece of free markets that European decisionmake
    Agreed. But since any sane person would say that equality is more important than a "free market" that only makes companies richer, there is no doubt that the EU is doing the right thing.
    No, no sane person who understands the real world and cares about personal freedom would choose "equality" in the European sense over freedome of choice.   This attitude is why my ancestors and those of millions of others fled Europe. Nothing has really changed much.you still look to The State for your answers to everything. The free market provides for a lot more than making the rich richer.  It does that too, for sure. Often to a fault, but that is usually due to politically driven government policies, not free markets.
    That is factually wrong as every neoliberal move in the past 30 years has only lead to more inequality. But please, keep on pretending that 1% holding half of the wealth is acceptable. I think it’s a scandal. 
    Make your own money then see what are your views about utterly unfair, confiscatory Socialist policies.
    bshank
  • Reply 129 of 150
    ike17055ike17055 Posts: 121member
    clemynx said:
    ike17055 said:
    clemynx said:
    It's just a matter of perspective. 

    You think that the American dream is real and that customers have a choice. I think you are naive, that the American dream has been shown to be a lie, that the US are a big scam, that consumers only have the illusion of a choice and that big companies prey on their consumers. 
    I live the the American dream everyday. The choices we have are truly astounding.the freedoms are incredible, if unfortunately under intense pressure of politicans who want us to be "more like Europe."  You have no clue what you are talking about. 

    More like Europe would be great. Let’s take France

    Work 35 hours per week
    5 weeks of paid vacation per year
    Paid medical leave
    Paid maternity leave for 3 months and paternity for 2 weeks
    Paid retirement at 63 
    Free healthcare for all
    Free ambulances 
    College at 600$ per year
    Better trains and public transportation 
    Better food
    Basically it's a paradise compared to the US. 
    Right...France (and much of the rest of Europe) ...also known as "Greece in waiting."  I remember when Greece was cited as such as "paradise."  Now they wait for the next bailout from Germany....but who will then bailout out the bailors...beggar thy neighbor policies, tax-dodging as sport, more and more debt...once America's defense umbrella is closed up, we will start to see repeats.  And soon, it will be time to blame the Jews again, I guess.  I only wish I could say that the U.S. Has learned a lesson by watching this unfold, but not yet. We may steer clear yet from the destructive path of socialism and dependency.
    SpamSandwich
  • Reply 130 of 150
    ike17055ike17055 Posts: 121member
    clemynx said:
    ike17055 said:
    foggyhill said:
    ike17055 said:
    wizard69 said:
    This is a prime example of the EU's obsession with successful American companies.    Frankly i think the goverment here in the USA needs to take a more active roll in adressing this harassment.   
    Google's success, and that of others, is in part how we can afford to continue paying the bulk of Europe's defense, while they sneer at us and laugh publicly at American admonishment for Europe's broken financial committment-- to itself. Trump gets a lot wrong, but he is right on this: if Europe wants to complain about how they cannot "depend" on America, perhaps they should stop shortchanging their own responsibilities, and quit always trying to play the U.S. for chumps, and begin to act like allies are supposed to act for once. 
    So, a Trump lie huh, ok, now I know who to ignore.
    Dimwit, the fact is: Trump has pointed out what has been record for years. Europe agreed to meet NATO funding percentages, then ignored the commitments they made, happily relying on the Americans to continue funding an excessive percentage. It is Europe that is the "unreliable partner."  Now it seems, America will reset its committment based on the realities of its own budget needs, and the unwillingness of Europe (again) to sacrifice butter today, for the guns that protect its cuture and freedoms. This time, we will not be bailing you out.  The Russians which to dominate the continent, just as they have for centuries. Now, it seems, they will.  We are more concerned about South Korea and Japan now.  And that actually began under Obama with his "pivot to Asia." 
    Shame on you for talking like that. You are an ignorant person full of hate. 
    Yeah. Fall back on name calling when you have no facts and are confronted with uncomfortable realities. No wonder the American Left and Europe's Left find so much in common. 

    SpamSandwichbshankanton zuykov
  • Reply 131 of 150
    nhtnht Posts: 4,522member
    clemynx said:
    ike17055 said:
    clemynx said:
    It's just a matter of perspective. 

    You think that the American dream is real and that customers have a choice. I think you are naive, that the American dream has been shown to be a lie, that the US are a big scam, that consumers only have the illusion of a choice and that big companies prey on their consumers. 
    I live the the American dream everyday. The choices we have are truly astounding.the freedoms are incredible, if unfortunately under intense pressure of politicans who want us to be "more like Europe."  You have no clue what you are talking about. 

    More like Europe would be great. Let’s take France

    Work 35 hours per week
    5 weeks of paid vacation per year
    Paid medical leave
    Paid maternity leave for 3 months and paternity for 2 weeks
    Paid retirement at 63 
    Free healthcare for all
    Free ambulances 
    College at 600$ per year
    Better trains and public transportation 
    Better food
    Basically it's a paradise compared to the US. 
    Local Purchasing Power in United States is 28.08% higher than in France

    https://www.numbeo.com/cost-of-living/compare_countries_result.jsp?country1=France&country2=United+States

    Average monthly disposable salary France: 2761, vs US 3,258 (18% more than France)



    http://www.nationmaster.com/country-info/compare/France/United-States/Cost-of-living

    Better food?  

    Top 50 restaurants lists Eleven Madison Park in NY as the best while Miramar in Menton was #4

    Lets not take France, thanks.

    ike17055SpamSandwichbshank
  • Reply 132 of 150
    ike17055ike17055 Posts: 121member
    clemynx said:
    ike17055 said:
    clemynx said:
    ike17055 said:

    In fact, it is You who could not be more wrong. "Freer" and "more equal" are essentially contradictory in the marketplace. The freedom to succeed, or fail, is dependent largely on individual or organizational abilities and desire to exceed and outperform the practices of all others, not equality. The power of the consumer to choose ultimately picks the winner, not socialist interventions toward equality. This is the fundamental piece of free markets that European decisionmake
    Agreed. But since any sane person would say that equality is more important than a "free market" that only makes companies richer, there is no doubt that the EU is doing the right thing.
    No, no sane person who understands the real world and cares about personal freedom would choose "equality" in the European sense over freedome of choice.   This attitude is why my ancestors and those of millions of others fled Europe. Nothing has really changed much.you still look to The State for your answers to everything. The free market provides for a lot more than making the rich richer.  It does that too, for sure. Often to a fault, but that is usually due to politically driven government policies, not free markets.
    That is factually wrong as every neoliberal move in the past 30 years has only lead to more inequality. But please, keep on pretending that 1% holding half of the wealth is acceptable. I think it’s a scandal. 
    Never defended it.As stated, this is not a failure of the marketplace. It results from deliberate policies of the government, whose keepers then decry it, while fixing its foundations into cement. The Left and Right share responsibility for it by putting their political agendas and supporters above national interest and the defense of our Founding ideals. 
    SpamSandwich
  • Reply 133 of 150
    ike17055ike17055 Posts: 121member
    clemynx said:

    ike17055 said:

    Perhaps EU leaders DESERVE to be insulted.  Diplomacy has gotten us nowhere for decades. Pay for your own defense. We are foing broke propping up your nanny state ways. 
    Wow, you seem to suffer from an acute trumpist syndrome. 

    In the real world, European leaders certainly do not deserve to be insulted. Diplomacy has made the world safer than it was for centuries. It’s troglodytes like Trump who want to bring it back to the Middle Ages with: 
    rejection of science (climate change)
    rejection of the balance of power (constant attacks on justice and the media)
    rejection of the people's wellbeing (removing healthcare from 22 million people)
    rejection of wisdom (a huge ignorant thinking Belgium was a city, Trump rejects the idea of learning)
    rejection of good manners (the sociopathic handshake)
    rejection of reality (all that is fake is real and vice versa, the inauguration crowd, the birth certificate, the election fraud, the wiretapping, the tapes, the kept Medicaid...)
    Not defending Trump. You are misdirecting again. I merely stated that he has hit a nerve by expressing his reluctance to continue overpaying for NATO when Europe won't pay its agreed-to fair share has a huge impact and that America is reaching the end of its patience with being "rich Uncle" to spoiled children who insult the very source of their many indulgences.  
    SpamSandwich
  • Reply 134 of 150
    ike17055ike17055 Posts: 121member
    clemynx said:

    ike17055 said:

    Perhaps EU leaders DESERVE to be insulted.  Diplomacy has gotten us nowhere for decades. Pay for your own defense. We are foing broke propping up your nanny state ways. 
    Wow, you seem to suffer from an acute trumpist syndrome. 

    In the real world, European leaders certainly do not deserve to be insulted. Diplomacy has made the world safer than it ...
    European leaders who make committments and break them and then lampoon the American president, even as he speaks in front of them, deserve SO much more than being insulted.  

    You also misdirected agin. I said diplomacy achieved nothing in reference specifically to trying to persuade the Europeans from reneging on their defense commitment. But since you raise the topic of diplomacy...the fact is that diplomacy in and of itself has not kept the peace...the deterrent power of American military might has been the single biggest factor in keeping the peace in Europe and keeping the Russians out of Western Europe. But diplomacy has served a vital role in avoiding conflict...conflict that is only even a possibility because of Soviet /  Russian desires to dominate the continent, particularly in the post-WW II period -- except you know, we kept them from doing so. So, the inconvenient fact for you is that the Bomb (and American bombers) has more to do with preserving European territorial integrity and sovereignty, than just about anything else. Especially diplomacy. But fine, we can remive our bases, and we will see if the Americans ir the Russians are the ones you should have been worrying about. 

    SpamSandwich
  • Reply 135 of 150
    bshankbshank Posts: 256member
    clemynx said:
    bshank said:
    clemynx said:
    bshank said:
    ike17055 said:
    The European elites continue to demonstrate that they have no real understanding of free markets and competition. 
    Uh, that's actually the point of the ruling: Google was intentionally subverting competition by giving their own shopping links the priority within a general search. 
     It is Google's website after all. The first two links are sponsored, not the first two pages of search results.  Why don't you spend billions of dollars to create a website and let us all post whatever we want on there for free where ever we want?!  It seems like you're saying every website everyone builds is free to everybody to use however they want to use it.  Completely ridiculous logic 
    It's not ridiculous logic when you are used by the vast majority of people. 
    There are other options if people want to use them regardless of whatever ridiculous statement you want to make
    No there are not precisely because Google impedes those options to appear as they should in their search results. 
    So if I look up Bing or Yahoo you're saying it will only produce Google in the results? ߤ㰟䣰藍
    edited June 2017 anton zuykov
  • Reply 136 of 150
    EsquireCatsEsquireCats Posts: 1,268member
    gatorguy said:
    cropr said:
    ike17055 said:
    The European elites continue to demonstrate that they have no real understanding of free markets and competition. 
    The American elites continue to think that the American law is applicable all over the world and that their view on anticompetitive behaviour is by definition the correct one.
    In this case it looks like the EU elites think their view of anti-competitive behavior is the only correct one and thus insists on changing worldwide operations of multinational companies. I've no idea how it came about that the EU claims entitlement to a share of worldwide revenue, but I plan to do a little background reading later on. 
    I agree with both of you here. (Your comment and the one you're replying to.) Yes - the EU should have control over services that operate in their domain which affect their citizens and businesses. AND Yes, damages should only be proportionate to what the EU share entails. (While this is based on a percentage of worldwide revenue, that percentage could be the EU component.) As for the rest of you, stop banging your nationalistic drums. There is zero proof that this has anything to do with EU and USA competition, and an utter f'tonne of evidence that it is based on long established precedent to the EU definition of anticompetitive behaviour.
  • Reply 137 of 150
    fallenjtfallenjt Posts: 4,056member
    wizard69 said:
    This is a prime example of the EU's obsession with successful American companies.    Frankly i think the goverment here in the USA needs to take a more active roll in adressing this harassment.     In the end that is exactly what it is.   

    By the way iagree with Google, links to other search sites just waste my time.  The last thing we need is crappy service from Google because the EU can't compete.  
    I personally don't like Google but seriously, EU has too much hate toward American companies and trues to rip them by enforcing some antitrust bullshits!
  • Reply 138 of 150
    tallest skiltallest skil Posts: 43,388member
    ike17055 said:
    I would so much upvote this 20 times if i could do so. 
    The problem with so many people is that they’ve been raised their entire lives on a false dichotomy and thus can’t comprehend anything which exists outside it. “Do we raise the debt ceiling or do we not raise the debt ceiling?” HOW ABOUT WE FUCKING END THE FEDERAL RESERVE ENTIRELY? But that doesn’t get through. It just doesn’t compute. Are they even alive? There is no reason in discourse anymore. It’s platitudes on top and propaganda below. It’s killing me. This shit takes a toll on a person, day in and day out, when you’re holding proven truth in people’s faces and they just look right through it at the person who’s saying it. Language itself has been bastardized now. “You’re wrong!” they scream, when what they mean is “What you have said is wrong,” but even then it isn’t. They’re at least two steps back from the actual point being discussed.
    SpamSandwichanton zuykov
  • Reply 139 of 150
    ike17055ike17055 Posts: 121member

    It's not hard to understand when you take it in the proper context:

    ""We don't want to become a digital colony of global internet giants," Montebourg said in May. "What's at stake is our sovereignty itself.""

    Döpfner warned: "Voluntary self-subjugation cannot be the last word from the Old World. On the contrary, the desire of the European digital economy to succeed could finally become something for European policy, which the EU has so sorely missed in the past few decades: an emotional narrative."

    The EU (via Juncker, Vestager and Oettinger) has declared war on US tech companies because EU tech companies are uncompetitive without an uneven playing field.  That hurts German and French sensibilities.
    Yeah. Re-read those quotes. Those comments, along with euro-centric comments here really sum up the entire trajectory of Atlantic relations for decades now:  Europe's entire political narrative, is consumed by one single overarching premise: trying to disguise the fading relevance of European power on the world stage, and to do so by dismissing the true nature of the rise of American power and Asian power in supplanting Europe as the centerpiece of international relations. 
    anton zuykov
  • Reply 140 of 150
    foggyhillfoggyhill Posts: 4,767member
    ike17055 said:
    foggyhill said:
    ike17055 said:
    MisterKit said:
    Nice to see a system that favors the people and not corporations.
    A favor? It is about as much of a favor as Chavez did to his people.
    In a truly free society, consumers decide who serves the people and they do so with their choices on where to spend their currency. Not an interventionist government that treats the endorsement of consumers as a crime. 
    What endorsement?

    If they control a service and you don't see the alternatives and drive them all out of business, they (or you) don't have a choice, they (or you) don't see the alternative.
    They can then gouge you, provide substandard service and there will be no alternative; you will be stuck.
    If they're big enough, in many countries with weak anti-trust laws or tootless ones, they can even influence government policy to keep others out.

    This is illusory free market that will stay fair and self regulate only exists in the mind of people's notion of economics stopped, at economics 101 were they simplify everything so you can grasp basic concepts.

    So, bring on some more of this libertarian tripe, go on.
    The consumers endorse a product or service by choosing it over other competitors...usually a direct relationship to its ability to satisfy consumer wants.  No one says it is self regulating, but having governments choosing winners and losers based on a sense of "equality" is completly foreign to a marketplace that functions correctly. It is prone toward manipulations and politics and lots of non-economic factors. Most "market failures" are not failures of the market at all...they usually result from market interventions that warp fundamental influences of a true market that governs through both the self-interest of buyer and seller.  Amazingly, ideas that are foundational to both political and economic freedoms began among European scholars, yet were largely orphaned there until eventually being adopted and nurtured by the Americans. 
    Give me the pile of recent sources (less than 3 years) from reputable institutions with tons of citations for other reputable institutions and researchers in the many fields this involves (not just economics either) that actually demonstrate what you say otherwise your blowing steam straight out of your rump. You saying crap, or feeling it is true, doesn't make it true; prove it or desist. Talk a big game; well bring it buddy. Come on, there must be thousands of grade A studies with thousands of citations behind your grand affirmations.... Time to dig deep into your pit of lies.

    I don't want to hear anything from right wing think tanks, fox, or from a book some hack wrote in the 1980s or some youtube video that excited you last week; only reputable sources.









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