I also bought the SE solely for the size (as opposed to the price, though that was very nice too). And not just the form factor, either. The screen size is ideal for my hands. I can reach the whole screen with one hand, minimal shimmying. With the 6 it was a constant battle trying to do what I could so comfortably do with my 4S. When the SE was announced I leapt at the opportunity to "upgrade" and ditch my iPhone 6, which was far too large and cumbersome for my liking. I want to be able to use my phone with one hand without feeling the need to keep the other hand at the ready to type or tap something on the far reaches of the screen (n.b., I didn't find the Reachability feature useful on the 6).
Honestly, even if they kept the form factor the exact same and just updated the internals every 1-2 years, I would buy it over and over again. I'm more than willing to trade the latest and greatest features for a more comfortable/manageable handset.
The less-slippery form factor is also key. I don't even use a case on my SE because the edges make it so easy to grip; I've hardly ever dropped it. With the 6 the curved sides were so slippery I bought a case immediately and was still terrified of dropping it.
On top of that, the price made it a total no-brainer. It was basically a more compact version of the then-six-month old 6S (with a few small tradeoffs) for half the price. I travel overseas a lot so I bought the Sim-Free version outright. The next month I went to Spain and purchased a local SIM with 2-3GB of data for €10. The same data would have cost me $100+ with AT&T's overseas package. Needless to say it quickly paid for itself.
I know exactly what you mean. Personally I need a larger phone for my hands but if I apply the same situation to iPads I just don't feel comfortable with an iPad Air 2 against and iPad Mini 2. The Mini is perfect for me and, for phones, the SE size is perfect for many people. I also find the 6 and 7 series phones incredibly slippery. The SE, while looking a little more old fashioned IMO has a solid hold.
I hope we see some changes in that area on the new phones.
"incredibly slippery" "more old fashioned"
FFS. Is every minute of you life filled with such condescending bias?
By your definition, almost all Android OS smartphones with a metal and glass build are just as"incredibly slippery" as the iPhone 7.
Get a case or spent a little time training your muscle memory through repetition so you don't have to think about gripping it.
I also bought the SE solely for the size (as opposed to the price, though that was very nice too). And not just the form factor, either. The screen size is ideal for my hands. I can reach the whole screen with one hand, minimal shimmying. With the 6 it was a constant battle trying to do what I could so comfortably do with my 4S. When the SE was announced I leapt at the opportunity to "upgrade" and ditch my iPhone 6, which was far too large and cumbersome for my liking. I want to be able to use my phone with one hand without feeling the need to keep the other hand at the ready to type or tap something on the far reaches of the screen (n.b., I didn't find the Reachability feature useful on the 6).
Honestly, even if they kept the form factor the exact same and just updated the internals every 1-2 years, I would buy it over and over again. I'm more than willing to trade the latest and greatest features for a more comfortable/manageable handset.
The less-slippery form factor is also key. I don't even use a case on my SE because the edges make it so easy to grip; I've hardly ever dropped it. With the 6 the curved sides were so slippery I bought a case immediately and was still terrified of dropping it.
On top of that, the price made it a total no-brainer. It was basically a more compact version of the then-six-month old 6S (with a few small tradeoffs) for half the price. I travel overseas a lot so I bought the Sim-Free version outright. The next month I went to Spain and purchased a local SIM with 2-3GB of data for €10. The same data would have cost me $100+ with AT&T's overseas package. Needless to say it quickly paid for itself.
I know exactly what you mean. Personally I need a larger phone for my hands but if I apply the same situation to iPads I just don't feel comfortable with an iPad Air 2 against and iPad Mini 2. The Mini is perfect for me and, for phones, the SE size is perfect for many people. I also find the 6 and 7 series phones incredibly slippery. The SE, while looking a little more old fashioned IMO has a solid hold.
I hope we see some changes in that area on the new phones.
"incredibly slippery" "more old fashioned"
FFS. Is every minute of you life filled with such condescending bias?
By your definition, almost all Android OS smartphones with a metal and glass build are just as"incredibly slippery" as the iPhone 7.
Get a case or spent a little time training your muscle memory through repetition so you don't have to think about gripping it.
His presence on this forum has primarily been asserting he is a long time Apple customer that has been bitterly disappointed with Apple product strategy for macs and phones for the last 5 years or so. Amusingly, if you look into his very old posting history his opinion hasn't changed much so it is continually that Apple was awesome 5-6 years ago and all the new iMacs, MBPs, software, phones, ports, etc that suck and OMG we should go back to product X-5 years and all would be awesome again.
Most rational folks would have moved on to another company by now since Apple can't do anything right except for the past.
I also bought the SE solely for the size (as opposed to the price, though that was very nice too). And not just the form factor, either. The screen size is ideal for my hands. I can reach the whole screen with one hand, minimal shimmying. With the 6 it was a constant battle trying to do what I could so comfortably do with my 4S. When the SE was announced I leapt at the opportunity to "upgrade" and ditch my iPhone 6, which was far too large and cumbersome for my liking. I want to be able to use my phone with one hand without feeling the need to keep the other hand at the ready to type or tap something on the far reaches of the screen (n.b., I didn't find the Reachability feature useful on the 6).
Honestly, even if they kept the form factor the exact same and just updated the internals every 1-2 years, I would buy it over and over again. I'm more than willing to trade the latest and greatest features for a more comfortable/manageable handset.
The less-slippery form factor is also key. I don't even use a case on my SE because the edges make it so easy to grip; I've hardly ever dropped it. With the 6 the curved sides were so slippery I bought a case immediately and was still terrified of dropping it.
On top of that, the price made it a total no-brainer. It was basically a more compact version of the then-six-month old 6S (with a few small tradeoffs) for half the price. I travel overseas a lot so I bought the Sim-Free version outright. The next month I went to Spain and purchased a local SIM with 2-3GB of data for €10. The same data would have cost me $100+ with AT&T's overseas package. Needless to say it quickly paid for itself.
I know exactly what you mean. Personally I need a larger phone for my hands but if I apply the same situation to iPads I just don't feel comfortable with an iPad Air 2 against and iPad Mini 2. The Mini is perfect for me and, for phones, the SE size is perfect for many people. I also find the 6 and 7 series phones incredibly slippery. The SE, while looking a little more old fashioned IMO has a solid hold.
I hope we see some changes in that area on the new phones.
"incredibly slippery" "more old fashioned"
FFS. Is every minute of you life filled with such condescending bias?
By your definition, almost all Android OS smartphones with a metal and glass build are just as"incredibly slippery" as the iPhone 7.
Get a case or spent a little time training your muscle memory through repetition so you don't have to think about gripping it.
His presence on this forum has primarily been asserting he is a long time Apple customer that has been bitterly disappointed with Apple product strategy for macs and phones for the last 5 years or so. Amusingly, if you look into his very old posting history his opinion hasn't changed much so it is continually that Apple was awesome 5-6 years ago and all the new iMacs, MBPs, software, phones, ports, etc that suck and OMG we should go back to product X-5 years and all would be awesome again.
Most rational folks would have moved on to another company by now since Apple can't do anything right except for the past.
Yeah, I'm aware of all that, but he's not close enough to trollish behavior to ban, and personally blocking him would just give him more opportunity to spew B.S.
He sure references a lot of outdated Apple gear though, so, I'm guessing Apple's ecosystem doesn't stick to him.
avon b7 said: Of course, Apple must evaluate its ability to retain current users and draw in switchers but with phone saturation having been reached and most features already available on any phone, the chances of pulling ahead of the pack at any given time are slim and short lived.
I think Apple is already ahead of the pack on every meaningful metric except 'market share' which has always been a kind of bogus number as long as I can remember.
It would be interesting for someone to do a study of the actual number of higher-end, in-use Android phones some day. When I hear about on-line shopping, iOS devices are higher in actual use. The iOS to Android ratio for podcast listening is currently at 4.86:1. Most web metrics I see show Android with a much lower percentage of 'page views' than one would think from the supposed 'market share' percentages. When I was looking at the stats of one of my own websites that has nothing to do with tech (or anything that I can think would skew the numbers one way or the other), mobile was currently about 25% of traffic (which is low, I guess?) and 75% of the mobile traffic was iOS.
I see stuff like this over and over in the real world. Even if the 'units shipped' of 'market share' are accurate, how many of those Android devices are embedded stuff, cheapo phones (that only get used as phones), or came free with a new TV and are now sitting in a shoe box?
avon b7 said: Are saying that you think the SE can enter the Christmas season unchanged or discontinued? That Apple will basically repeat last year's approach (with the possible addition of a very high end new model)?
I suppose it depends on how much of a leap there is in whatever Apple releases in the fall, or if Apple really cares if the SE sales dip a bit in light of the new release bump. But, the SE isn't actually that out of date except for people spec-shopping. It's just fine for the foreseeable future (until Apple ups the RAM across the iOS line), or adds some must-have feature.
Thinking Apple must produce a "premium" large screen SE to chase market share because the flagships are "too expensive" is like thinking Apple must produce a mid tower xMac to chase desktop share because the iMac is "too expensive". ... If they upgrade the SE this year it'll be to get rid of the headphone jack and make it more water resistant. Then the lineup of SE, 7 and 7S will be uniform. As mike suggested Spring is more likely.
I don't see the parallel there. The reason to produce an xMac isn't because an iMac is too expensive, but because there are people who can't or won't afford a Mac Pro, but who might not want the display. An xMac or mini that's reasonably powerful would fill that hole in their product lineup, just like the SE fills the hole of people who don't want a ginormous phone. (For example, I already have a display, and it has extra inputs on it. I'd like a computer roughly as powerful as a MacBook Pro, but that can keep itself cool w/o tons of fan noise or damaging internal components... but there's no reason it should cost more than my car.)
re: SE w/o headphone jack - I suppose that's inevitable at some point. I'm hoping they stick with the current SE case and just keep putting newer innards, along with 3.5mm jack, in there. I haven't figured out what I'll do if Apple ever completely eliminates it.
By your definition, almost all Android OS smartphones with a metal and glass build are just as"incredibly slippery" as the iPhone 7.
Get a case or spent a little time training your muscle memory through repetition so you don't have to think about gripping it.
I'd have to agree on the slippery designs. Yes, adding a case helps, but as they come out of the box, I don't think it's a good design, whether it be Apple or Android. But, that's not my main beef with the design/look. As for old-fashioned, I disagree there. I think the newer phones look kinda cheap and plastic-y. The SE looks like a precision machine.
As for dropping... different people, I guess. My wife and son seem to drop their devices relatively often, whereas I think I've dropped mine (all iOS devices I've owned) a couple times over about 5+ years. Yes, if you're prone to dropping, a case is a must at which point the inherent slipperiness becomes a bit irrelevant.
nht said: His presence on this forum has primarily been asserting he is a long time Apple customer that has been bitterly disappointed with Apple product strategy for macs and phones for the last 5 years or so. Amusingly, if you look into his very old posting history his opinion hasn't changed much so it is continually that Apple was awesome 5-6 years ago and all the new iMacs, MBPs, software, phones, ports, etc that suck and OMG we should go back to product X-5 years and all would be awesome again.
Most rational folks would have moved on to another company by now since Apple can't do anything right except for the past.
I guess add me to that camp too. I wouldn't go so far as to say everything new sucks, but Apple is fundamentally a different company. The latest products and announcements have given me back a glimmer of hope.
And, yes, I'm a pretty long time Apple user, going back to the mid-late-80s. The problem with moving on, is that there isn't much of anywhere to move on to. My complaining isn't that Apple is now so much worse than the competition, but rather that I'd like to see them stay way out ahead of the competition. And... a recognition that if they keep slipping, they'll eventually fall to the competition, and our journey along the way as users won't be very enjoyable. (Also, while the hardware isn't always what I want - and until recently, simply falling behind - it's the software that gets the majority of my complaints.)
I also bought the SE solely for the size (as opposed to the price, though that was very nice too). And not just the form factor, either. The screen size is ideal for my hands. I can reach the whole screen with one hand, minimal shimmying. With the 6 it was a constant battle trying to do what I could so comfortably do with my 4S. When the SE was announced I leapt at the opportunity to "upgrade" and ditch my iPhone 6, which was far too large and cumbersome for my liking. I want to be able to use my phone with one hand without feeling the need to keep the other hand at the ready to type or tap something on the far reaches of the screen (n.b., I didn't find the Reachability feature useful on the 6).
Honestly, even if they kept the form factor the exact same and just updated the internals every 1-2 years, I would buy it over and over again. I'm more than willing to trade the latest and greatest features for a more comfortable/manageable handset.
The less-slippery form factor is also key. I don't even use a case on my SE because the edges make it so easy to grip; I've hardly ever dropped it. With the 6 the curved sides were so slippery I bought a case immediately and was still terrified of dropping it.
On top of that, the price made it a total no-brainer. It was basically a more compact version of the then-six-month old 6S (with a few small tradeoffs) for half the price. I travel overseas a lot so I bought the Sim-Free version outright. The next month I went to Spain and purchased a local SIM with 2-3GB of data for €10. The same data would have cost me $100+ with AT&T's overseas package. Needless to say it quickly paid for itself.
I know exactly what you mean. Personally I need a larger phone for my hands but if I apply the same situation to iPads I just don't feel comfortable with an iPad Air 2 against and iPad Mini 2. The Mini is perfect for me and, for phones, the SE size is perfect for many people. I also find the 6 and 7 series phones incredibly slippery. The SE, while looking a little more old fashioned IMO has a solid hold.
I hope we see some changes in that area on the new phones.
"incredibly slippery" "more old fashioned"
FFS. Is every minute of you life filled with such condescending bias?
By your definition, almost all Android OS smartphones with a metal and glass build are just as"incredibly slippery" as the iPhone 7.
Get a case or spent a little time training your muscle memory through repetition so you don't have to think about gripping it.
Not at all. The Android phones that share the same design cues as the iPhone 6/7 are in the same boat but there are others that are better for handling. It's one of the aspects I hope gets changed with the new iPhones. If not, a case is needed. I haven't held one yet but the glass front and back Honor 9 reportedly comes with a case in the box.
Nobody should need to practise holding a phone to avoid dropping it. It has long been argued that if you need a case to improve grip, then something is wrong with the design. I don't mind cases, though.
As for 'old fashioned'. Perhaps not the best adjective but I've been using 'stale' (which even Gruber seems to agree with for the 6/7) and just wanted to change the word. Perhaps uninspiring, tired or boring would be better.
There's not much you can do with design as it's almost all been done before. Just like clothes. The point is to get trends right. The P10 comes in those vibrant colours precisely because market research for Huawei said that bright colours were becoming popular.
The current Apple colours are at the opposite end of the colour positioning.
I don't know which styling is more popular right now.
I also bought the SE solely for the size (as opposed to the price, though that was very nice too). And not just the form factor, either. The screen size is ideal for my hands. I can reach the whole screen with one hand, minimal shimmying. With the 6 it was a constant battle trying to do what I could so comfortably do with my 4S. When the SE was announced I leapt at the opportunity to "upgrade" and ditch my iPhone 6, which was far too large and cumbersome for my liking. I want to be able to use my phone with one hand without feeling the need to keep the other hand at the ready to type or tap something on the far reaches of the screen (n.b., I didn't find the Reachability feature useful on the 6).
Honestly, even if they kept the form factor the exact same and just updated the internals every 1-2 years, I would buy it over and over again. I'm more than willing to trade the latest and greatest features for a more comfortable/manageable handset.
The less-slippery form factor is also key. I don't even use a case on my SE because the edges make it so easy to grip; I've hardly ever dropped it. With the 6 the curved sides were so slippery I bought a case immediately and was still terrified of dropping it.
On top of that, the price made it a total no-brainer. It was basically a more compact version of the then-six-month old 6S (with a few small tradeoffs) for half the price. I travel overseas a lot so I bought the Sim-Free version outright. The next month I went to Spain and purchased a local SIM with 2-3GB of data for €10. The same data would have cost me $100+ with AT&T's overseas package. Needless to say it quickly paid for itself.
I know exactly what you mean. Personally I need a larger phone for my hands but if I apply the same situation to iPads I just don't feel comfortable with an iPad Air 2 against and iPad Mini 2. The Mini is perfect for me and, for phones, the SE size is perfect for many people. I also find the 6 and 7 series phones incredibly slippery. The SE, while looking a little more old fashioned IMO has a solid hold.
I hope we see some changes in that area on the new phones.
"incredibly slippery" "more old fashioned"
FFS. Is every minute of you life filled with such condescending bias?
By your definition, almost all Android OS smartphones with a metal and glass build are just as"incredibly slippery" as the iPhone 7.
Get a case or spent a little time training your muscle memory through repetition so you don't have to think about gripping it.
His presence on this forum has primarily been asserting he is a long time Apple customer that has been bitterly disappointed with Apple product strategy for macs and phones for the last 5 years or so. Amusingly, if you look into his very old posting history his opinion hasn't changed much so it is continually that Apple was awesome 5-6 years ago and all the new iMacs, MBPs, software, phones, ports, etc that suck and OMG we should go back to product X-5 years and all would be awesome again.
Most rational folks would have moved on to another company by now since Apple can't do anything right except for the past.
You really need to understand that this is a discussion forum. All opinions are valid if presented respectfully even if you don't like them.
I criticise Apple when I see fit and give my reasons. Have you seen me criticise my iPad Mini 2? My old iPhone 4, the MBP, the version of the Air I have. My Sawtooth?
You went searching through posts of mine as far back as 2004 to try and call me out. You failed and I had to point that out to you. I don't consider that normal behaviour but I accept it. You were going to ignore me but you never did. You often act like the sheriff and are trigger happy with sticking troll and BS labels on other people's opinions. You also call people idiots, etc. You once tried to describe AI as some kind of hobbyist club which it is not.
Just try to live with other opinions and the next time you want to call someone an idiot, troll or whatever, think twice because you are lending nothing to the discussion and more often than not, being disrespectful. Apart from the one post wonders, there are no trolls to be seen here. Just people's opinions.
I also bought the SE solely for the size (as opposed to the price, though that was very nice too). And not just the form factor, either. The screen size is ideal for my hands. I can reach the whole screen with one hand, minimal shimmying. With the 6 it was a constant battle trying to do what I could so comfortably do with my 4S. When the SE was announced I leapt at the opportunity to "upgrade" and ditch my iPhone 6, which was far too large and cumbersome for my liking. I want to be able to use my phone with one hand without feeling the need to keep the other hand at the ready to type or tap something on the far reaches of the screen (n.b., I didn't find the Reachability feature useful on the 6).
Honestly, even if they kept the form factor the exact same and just updated the internals every 1-2 years, I would buy it over and over again. I'm more than willing to trade the latest and greatest features for a more comfortable/manageable handset.
The less-slippery form factor is also key. I don't even use a case on my SE because the edges make it so easy to grip; I've hardly ever dropped it. With the 6 the curved sides were so slippery I bought a case immediately and was still terrified of dropping it.
On top of that, the price made it a total no-brainer. It was basically a more compact version of the then-six-month old 6S (with a few small tradeoffs) for half the price. I travel overseas a lot so I bought the Sim-Free version outright. The next month I went to Spain and purchased a local SIM with 2-3GB of data for €10. The same data would have cost me $100+ with AT&T's overseas package. Needless to say it quickly paid for itself.
I know exactly what you mean. Personally I need a larger phone for my hands but if I apply the same situation to iPads I just don't feel comfortable with an iPad Air 2 against and iPad Mini 2. The Mini is perfect for me and, for phones, the SE size is perfect for many people. I also find the 6 and 7 series phones incredibly slippery. The SE, while looking a little more old fashioned IMO has a solid hold.
I hope we see some changes in that area on the new phones.
"incredibly slippery" "more old fashioned"
FFS. Is every minute of you life filled with such condescending bias?
By your definition, almost all Android OS smartphones with a metal and glass build are just as"incredibly slippery" as the iPhone 7.
Get a case or spent a little time training your muscle memory through repetition so you don't have to think about gripping it.
His presence on this forum has primarily been asserting he is a long time Apple customer that has been bitterly disappointed with Apple product strategy for macs and phones for the last 5 years or so. Amusingly, if you look into his very old posting history his opinion hasn't changed much so it is continually that Apple was awesome 5-6 years ago and all the new iMacs, MBPs, software, phones, ports, etc that suck and OMG we should go back to product X-5 years and all would be awesome again.
Most rational folks would have moved on to another company by now since Apple can't do anything right except for the past.
Yeah, I'm aware of all that, but he's not close enough to trollish behavior to ban, and personally blocking him would just give him more opportunity to spew B.S.
He sure references a lot of outdated Apple gear though, so, I'm guessing Apple's ecosystem doesn't stick to him.
Picked up a 500 plus euro iPad Air 2 late last year, I am looking for a new Mini this year and the wife is holding out for the new iPhone this year end. Upgraded the 2011 MBP and it's doing very well. No need to get a new Mac just right now and hope to revive the i7 2009 iMac at some point.
I refuse to buy into the new MBP for varying reasons but the biggest is price. It's early days for the new design (including TouchBar).
The storage wasn't so much an 'upgrade' as a necessity. I'll bet on on a bigger upgrade this autumn although screen size will be a limiting factor. To have something is better than nothing. If they want to be courageous, then an affordable large screen option should be offered but it would cut into margins.
Do you think there is a "NEED" for Apple to do it in 2017 or 2018, with all the talks of upcoming super-cycle? I think it is premature to talk about it. May be early 2019 would be a better time to talk about this. What do you think?
With the emphasis on 'need', I see none at the moment, mainly because of the suspected supercycle and not knowing how the rumoured 7s will be priced. That's from a purely Apple/financial perspective.
From a user perspective I think there is a market for a larger screen, modern, affordable premium iPhone. A very big market.
Of course any such phone would immediately eat into the next tier up and very possibly the next tier down (SE). So what is in it for Apple? Potentially, users. If services as a revenue stream is to be developed, the more users, the more potential. You can take your services to the user (by providing them on Android etc) or, preferably get users to come to you, and one of the big drivers is the iPhone. And one of the biggest hurdles to real new growth is price.
At current price points. I see little margin for real unit growth, just cyclical movements.
Of course, Apple must evaluate its ability to retain current users and draw in switchers but with phone saturation having been reached and most features already available on any phone, the chances of pulling ahead of the pack at any given time are slim and short lived.
For example, one of the biggest rumoured features of the premium iPhone will be the under screen sensor but if Apple manages to be first, it won't be long at all before competitors offer their own solutions.
However, that feature isn't really as great an advance as we like to believe. It is still just a print scanner at the end of the day and a regular scanner does the job perfectly well even if it requires a physical space away from the display.
As an aside it's worth noting that mid range Android phones have actually become slightly more expensive over the last couple of years, not cheaper. I don't know if this is due to component costs or increased margins but it doesn't appear to have slowed sales down.
Agreed completely, from an user perspective. The potential for a new mid-range large sized iPhone is enormous. Would it help? Yes, of course. Would it cause disruption in the market - Yes, again. But there are downsides to it as well, as you already noted down. Why take risk when the going is good? So I don't see it happening anytime soon until there is a "NEED" for Apple.
I also bought the SE solely for the size (as opposed to the price, though that was very nice too). And not just the form factor, either. The screen size is ideal for my hands. I can reach the whole screen with one hand, minimal shimmying. With the 6 it was a constant battle trying to do what I could so comfortably do with my 4S. When the SE was announced I leapt at the opportunity to "upgrade" and ditch my iPhone 6, which was far too large and cumbersome for my liking. I want to be able to use my phone with one hand without feeling the need to keep the other hand at the ready to type or tap something on the far reaches of the screen (n.b., I didn't find the Reachability feature useful on the 6).
Honestly, even if they kept the form factor the exact same and just updated the internals every 1-2 years, I would buy it over and over again. I'm more than willing to trade the latest and greatest features for a more comfortable/manageable handset.
The less-slippery form factor is also key. I don't even use a case on my SE because the edges make it so easy to grip; I've hardly ever dropped it. With the 6 the curved sides were so slippery I bought a case immediately and was still terrified of dropping it.
On top of that, the price made it a total no-brainer. It was basically a more compact version of the then-six-month old 6S (with a few small tradeoffs) for half the price. I travel overseas a lot so I bought the Sim-Free version outright. The next month I went to Spain and purchased a local SIM with 2-3GB of data for €10. The same data would have cost me $100+ with AT&T's overseas package. Needless to say it quickly paid for itself.
I know exactly what you mean. Personally I need a larger phone for my hands but if I apply the same situation to iPads I just don't feel comfortable with an iPad Air 2 against and iPad Mini 2. The Mini is perfect for me and, for phones, the SE size is perfect for many people. I also find the 6 and 7 series phones incredibly slippery. The SE, while looking a little more old fashioned IMO has a solid hold.
I hope we see some changes in that area on the new phones.
"incredibly slippery" "more old fashioned"
FFS. Is every minute of you life filled with such condescending bias?
By your definition, almost all Android OS smartphones with a metal and glass build are just as"incredibly slippery" as the iPhone 7.
Get a case or spent a little time training your muscle memory through repetition so you don't have to think about gripping it.
Not at all. The Android phones that share the same design cues as the iPhone 6/7 are in the same boat but there are others that are better for handling. It's one of the aspects I hope gets changed with the new iPhones. If not, a case is needed. I haven't held one yet but the glass front and back Honor 9 reportedly comes with a case in the box.
Nobody should need to practise holding a phone to avoid dropping it. It has long been argued that if you need a case to improve grip, then something is wrong with the design. I don't mind cases, though.
As for 'old fashioned'. Perhaps not the best adjective but I've been using 'stale' (which even Gruber seems to agree with for the 6/7) and just wanted to change the word. Perhaps uninspiring, tired or boring would be better.
There's not much you can do with design as it's almost all been done before. Just like clothes. The point is to get trends right. The P10 comes in those vibrant colours precisely because market research for Huawei said that bright colours were becoming popular.
The current Apple colours are at the opposite end of the colour positioning.
I don't know which styling is more popular right now.
"if you need a case to improve grip, then something is wrong with the design". See Honor P10 with glossy black finish as an example of said bad design.
Nobody argues that without being laughed at. Heck, I've never even come across anybody but you stating that.
Trends.
How's that fidget spinner working our for your focus?
avon b7 said: As for 'old fashioned'. Perhaps not the best adjective but I've been using 'stale' (which even Gruber seems to agree with for the 6/7) and just wanted to change the word. Perhaps uninspiring, tired or boring would be better.
There's not much you can do with design as it's almost all been done before. Just like clothes. The point is to get trends right.
I have to disagree here. There is a difference between style and fashion. If 'stale' is what you're basing it on... who cares? Is my BMW stale because it's based on more timeless design/style instead of all the bulbous, swoopy 'future' designs? IMO, it's just bad industrial design, with 'trendy' being the excuse. BTW, that's one of my arguments in regards to 'new' Apple vs 'old' Apple. Old Apple put UX first and sometimes set the trends in doing so. New Apple seems more concerned with retail fashion, the 'in crowd', following other 'trend setters', and all that sort of baloney. I want good or the best, not popular (as the two often don't match). (end rant)
avon b7 said: I refuse to buy into the new MBP for varying reasons but the biggest is price. It's early days for the new design (including TouchBar).
Yea, I'm just not sure what to do on the computer front right now. I should probably open a thread elsewhere and seek advice. It's like the first time in my history with Apple that I truly don't know which direction to go. I thought I'd probably go with a new laptop this fall or next spring, but now I'm kind of headed back more towards a desktop and laptop combo once again. (I'm a bit in limbo right now, as I sold my iMac, kept my MB Air, anticipating going laptop only.) I don't like the TouchBar, I don't like the pricing, and am not sure the MBP 'esc' will quite cut it. And, then there is the whole USB-C mess, which I'm sure will eventually resolve (hopefully).
"if you need a case to improve grip, then something is wrong with the design". See Honor P10 with glossy black finish as an example of said bad design.
I think the super-thin, rounded edges, camera bump, etc. is bad design. That said, I can't imagine not putting a case on something that costs $800+ and is insanely fragile, that you carry around with you and take in and out of bag/pockets regularly.
avon b7 said: As for 'old fashioned'. Perhaps not the best adjective but I've been using 'stale' (which even Gruber seems to agree with for the 6/7) and just wanted to change the word. Perhaps uninspiring, tired or boring would be better.
There's not much you can do with design as it's almost all been done before. Just like clothes. The point is to get trends right.
I have to disagree here. There is a difference between style and fashion. If 'stale' is what you're basing it on... who cares? Is my BMW stale because it's based on more timeless design/style instead of all the bulbous, swoopy 'future' designs? IMO, it's just bad industrial design, with 'trendy' being the excuse. BTW, that's one of my arguments in regards to 'new' Apple vs 'old' Apple. Old Apple put UX first and sometimes set the trends in doing so. New Apple seems more concerned with retail fashion, the 'in crowd', following other 'trend setters', and all that sort of baloney. I want good or the best, not popular (as the two often don't match). (end rant)
avon b7 said: I refuse to buy into the new MBP for varying reasons but the biggest is price. It's early days for the new design (including TouchBar).
Yea, I'm just not sure what to do on the computer front right now. I should probably open a thread elsewhere and seek advice. It's like the first time in my history with Apple that I truly don't know which direction to go. I thought I'd probably go with a new laptop this fall or next spring, but now I'm kind of headed back more towards a desktop and laptop combo once again. (I'm a bit in limbo right now, as I sold my iMac, kept my MB Air, anticipating going laptop only.) I don't like the TouchBar, I don't like the pricing, and am not sure the MBP 'esc' will quite cut it. And, then there is the whole USB-C mess, which I'm sure will eventually resolve (hopefully).
"if you need a case to improve grip, then something is wrong with the design". See Honor P10 with glossy black finish as an example of said bad design.
I think the super-thin, rounded edges, camera bump, etc. is bad design. That said, I can't imagine not putting a case on something that costs $800+ and is insanely fragile, that you carry around with you and take in and out of bag/pockets regularly.
I'll play.
Try building and selling a premium smartphone that's not thin and light. Those are desirable traits in a smartphone.
Now try putting a state of the art camera module into a smartphone that's thinner than that module. The bump is a compromise to thin, and in the real world, is mitigated with a case.
Rounded edges are there for so many reasons, but I'll pick a few. Try putting a smartphone without rounded edges into a pocket or purse. Chances are, it hangs up, especially on soft, breathable, fabrics.
Rounded edges also tend to keep the smartphone from catching on hard substrates and helps to reduce impact damage.
I'll throw in this; hard, smooth, anodized metal surfaces are attractive and scratch resistant and available in many colors.
I have difficulty calling the basic design for almost all successful smartphones "bad design".
But you, you know better than everyone else, so start your own company and profit!
tmay said: Try building and selling a premium smartphone that's not thin and light. Those are desirable traits in a smartphone.
Now try putting a state of the art camera module into a smartphone that's thinner than that module. The bump is a compromise to thin, and in the real world, is mitigated with a case.
Rounded edges are there for so many reasons, but I'll pick a few. Try putting a smartphone without rounded edges into a pocket or purse. Chances are, it hangs up, especially on soft, breathable, fabrics. Rounded edges also tend to keep the smartphone from catching on hard substrates and helps to reduce impact damage. I'll throw in this; hard, smooth, anodized metal surfaces are attractive and scratch resistant and available in many colors. I have difficulty calling the basic design for almost all successful smartphones "bad design". But you, you know better than everyone else, so start your own company and profit!
Find me someone who wouldn't trade a bit more thickness and the associated battery longevity, to get rid of the bump. Desirable for who? Ive? My SE fits in my pocket better than a 7, even with it's non-rounded edges. re: successful smartphones - what's the alternative? It's not like we have rounded and non-rounded with feature parity to choose from. Also, I didn't say rounded edges alone were bad design. Bad ergonomics, with poor tradeoffs to get there, is the bad design. re: start your own company - let me know when you've come up with a few billion in VC, and I will.
Find me someone who wouldn't trade a bit more thickness and the associated battery longevity, to get rid of the bump. Desirable for who? Ive? My SE fits in my pocket better than a 7, even with it's non-rounded edges. re: successful smartphones - what's the alternative? It's not like we have rounded and non-rounded with feature parity to choose from. Also, I didn't say rounded edges alone were bad design. Bad ergonomics, with poor tradeoffs to get there, is the bad design. re: start your own company - let me know when you've come up with a few billion in VC, and I will.
1) Most of Apple's non-AI reader user base wants thin, and cases their phones anyway so the bump is a non-issue for them. 2) No opinion on the Ive thing. 3) That's why I use mine as my prime mover. I want a big screen, I've got iPads.
And, do start that thread on advice on what to buy for Macs. It'll probably be good, lengthy, and heated.
Find me someone who wouldn't trade a bit more thickness and the associated battery longevity, to get rid of the bump. Desirable for who? Ive? My SE fits in my pocket better than a 7, even with it's non-rounded edges. re: successful smartphones - what's the alternative? It's not like we have rounded and non-rounded with feature parity to choose from. Also, I didn't say rounded edges alone were bad design. Bad ergonomics, with poor tradeoffs to get there, is the bad design. re: start your own company - let me know when you've come up with a few billion in VC, and I will.
1) Most of Apple's non-AI reader user base wants thin, and cases their phones anyway so the bump is a non-issue for them. 2) No opinion on the Ive thing. 3) That's why I use mine as my prime mover. I want a big screen, I've got iPads.
And, do start that thread on advice on what to buy for Macs. It'll probably be good, lengthy, and heated.
It's funny when there were rumours of larger phones and Apple trailing for not having a phablet class phone we were told we were rediculous for not recognising that option shouldn't be avalible* and it was going to kill the company. Now all Apple's feature options are phablet class and they are clearly in need of more distinct options to move demand to various production chains and we are told we are rediculous for suggesting that a device between the 4S and SE in size and screen specs would be a very good thing in the mix.
Yet oddly Apple own figures show that people are holding phones longer and this has been the trend since the 6 was introduced. I think that is a very solid market vote that phone got to big and bulky even if they sold thinness as a saving grace. Edit to add: The 6 being the first time your replacement phone wasn't a smaller volume than previous unless you upgraded from a 3G which in terms of volume is on par with the Plus.
*I'd like to note not many suggested at the time there should be options.
Mike Wuerthele said: 1) Most of Apple's non-AI reader user base wants thin, and cases their phones anyway so the bump is a non-issue for them.
And, do start that thread on advice on what to buy for Macs. It'll probably be good, lengthy, and heated.
How do we know this, though? A lot of people complain about battery life, and the camera bump can't be seen as a good thing by anyone, as far as I can see. So, if given the choice between 1) an iPhone a bit thicker with more battery life and no camera bump, or 2) the current iPhone... You're saying most people would chose 2? I don't think I believe that.
re: thread - I need to get my thoughts together, and I'll have to do that.
Mike Wuerthele said: 1) Most of Apple's non-AI reader user base wants thin, and cases their phones anyway so the bump is a non-issue for them.
And, do start that thread on advice on what to buy for Macs. It'll probably be good, lengthy, and heated.
How do we know this, though? A lot of people complain about battery life, and the camera bump can't be seen as a good thing by anyone, as far as I can see. So, if given the choice between 1) an iPhone a bit thicker with more battery life and no camera bump, or 2) the current iPhone... You're saying most people would chose 2? I don't think I believe that.
re: thread - I need to get my thoughts together, and I'll have to do that.
See any popular Android OS smartphones that meet your description?
Neither do I.
If there really was a market for these, some Android OS OEM would have attempted to fill it. At best, there are a few models available that nobody buys.
tmay said: See any popular Android OS smartphones that meet your description?
Neither do I. If there really was a market for these, some Android OS OEM would have attempted to fill it. At best, there are a few models available that nobody buys.
I don't pay much attention to the Android market, but it seems when I walk past the displays in the stores, they are available in about every horrible design, shape, and configuration. I've seen very few compelling designs at all, to be honest.
But, I'm kind of missing how that relates to the two options I presented to Mike's point.
tmay said: See any popular Android OS smartphones that meet your description?
Neither do I. If there really was a market for these, some Android OS OEM would have attempted to fill it. At best, there are a few models available that nobody buys.
I don't pay much attention to the Android market, but it seems when I walk past the displays in the stores, they are available in about every horrible design, shape, and configuration. I've seen very few compelling designs at all, to be honest.
But, I'm kind of missing how that relates to the two options I presented to Mike's point.
"But, I'm kind of missing how that relates to the two options I presented to Mike's point."
80% of the smartphone market is Android OS.
Why isn't there a wide selection of devices a "bit thicker with more battery life and no camera bump"? Are Android OS users and iPhone users all that different tin tastes?
Consider that your belief is wrong; people, for the most part, don't care about either more battery life or the camera bump. They are happy as is.
Comments
"more old fashioned"
FFS.
Is every minute of you life filled with such condescending bias?
By your definition, almost all Android OS smartphones with a metal and glass build are just as"incredibly slippery" as the iPhone 7.
Get a case or spent a little time training your muscle memory through repetition so you don't have to think about gripping it.
Most rational folks would have moved on to another company by now since Apple can't do anything right except for the past.
He sure references a lot of outdated Apple gear though, so, I'm guessing Apple's ecosystem doesn't stick to him.
It would be interesting for someone to do a study of the actual number of higher-end, in-use Android phones some day. When I hear about on-line shopping, iOS devices are higher in actual use. The iOS to Android ratio for podcast listening is currently at 4.86:1. Most web metrics I see show Android with a much lower percentage of 'page views' than one would think from the supposed 'market share' percentages. When I was looking at the stats of one of my own websites that has nothing to do with tech (or anything that I can think would skew the numbers one way or the other), mobile was currently about 25% of traffic (which is low, I guess?) and 75% of the mobile traffic was iOS.
I see stuff like this over and over in the real world. Even if the 'units shipped' of 'market share' are accurate, how many of those Android devices are embedded stuff, cheapo phones (that only get used as phones), or came free with a new TV and are now sitting in a shoe box?
I suppose it depends on how much of a leap there is in whatever Apple releases in the fall, or if Apple really cares if the SE sales dip a bit in light of the new release bump. But, the SE isn't actually that out of date except for people spec-shopping. It's just fine for the foreseeable future (until Apple ups the RAM across the iOS line), or adds some must-have feature.
I don't see the parallel there. The reason to produce an xMac isn't because an iMac is too expensive, but because there are people who can't or won't afford a Mac Pro, but who might not want the display. An xMac or mini that's reasonably powerful would fill that hole in their product lineup, just like the SE fills the hole of people who don't want a ginormous phone. (For example, I already have a display, and it has extra inputs on it. I'd like a computer roughly as powerful as a MacBook Pro, but that can keep itself cool w/o tons of fan noise or damaging internal components... but there's no reason it should cost more than my car.)
re: SE w/o headphone jack - I suppose that's inevitable at some point. I'm hoping they stick with the current SE case and just keep putting newer innards, along with 3.5mm jack, in there. I haven't figured out what I'll do if Apple ever completely eliminates it.
As for old-fashioned, I disagree there. I think the newer phones look kinda cheap and plastic-y. The SE looks like a precision machine.
As for dropping... different people, I guess. My wife and son seem to drop their devices relatively often, whereas I think I've dropped mine (all iOS devices I've owned) a couple times over about 5+ years. Yes, if you're prone to dropping, a case is a must at which point the inherent slipperiness becomes a bit irrelevant.
I guess add me to that camp too. I wouldn't go so far as to say everything new sucks, but Apple is fundamentally a different company. The latest products and announcements have given me back a glimmer of hope.
And, yes, I'm a pretty long time Apple user, going back to the mid-late-80s. The problem with moving on, is that there isn't much of anywhere to move on to. My complaining isn't that Apple is now so much worse than the competition, but rather that I'd like to see them stay way out ahead of the competition. And... a recognition that if they keep slipping, they'll eventually fall to the competition, and our journey along the way as users won't be very enjoyable. (Also, while the hardware isn't always what I want - and until recently, simply falling behind - it's the software that gets the majority of my complaints.)
Nobody should need to practise holding a phone to avoid dropping it. It has long been argued that if you need a case to improve grip, then something is wrong with the design. I don't mind cases, though.
As for 'old fashioned'. Perhaps not the best adjective but I've been using 'stale' (which even Gruber seems to agree with for the 6/7) and just wanted to change the word. Perhaps uninspiring, tired or boring would be better.
There's not much you can do with design as it's almost all been done before. Just like clothes. The point is to get trends right. The P10 comes in those vibrant colours precisely because market research for Huawei said that bright colours were becoming popular.
The current Apple colours are at the opposite end of the colour positioning.
I don't know which styling is more popular right now.
I criticise Apple when I see fit and give my reasons. Have you seen me criticise my iPad Mini 2? My old iPhone 4, the MBP, the version of the Air I have. My Sawtooth?
You went searching through posts of mine as far back as 2004 to try and call me out. You failed and I had to point that out to you. I don't consider that normal behaviour but I accept it. You were going to ignore me but you never did. You often act like the sheriff and are trigger happy with sticking troll and BS labels on other people's opinions. You also call people idiots, etc. You once tried to describe AI as some kind of hobbyist club which it is not.
Just try to live with other opinions and the next time you want to call someone an idiot, troll or whatever, think twice because you are lending nothing to the discussion and more often than not, being disrespectful. Apart from the one post wonders, there are no trolls to be seen here. Just people's opinions.
I refuse to buy into the new MBP for varying reasons but the biggest is price. It's early days for the new design (including TouchBar).
I can sit and sweat things out for a while.
Nobody argues that without being laughed at. Heck, I've never even come across anybody but you stating that.
Trends.
How's that fidget spinner working our for your focus?
I'm laughing at you and your simplistic world.
Yea, I'm just not sure what to do on the computer front right now. I should probably open a thread elsewhere and seek advice. It's like the first time in my history with Apple that I truly don't know which direction to go. I thought I'd probably go with a new laptop this fall or next spring, but now I'm kind of headed back more towards a desktop and laptop combo once again. (I'm a bit in limbo right now, as I sold my iMac, kept my MB Air, anticipating going laptop only.) I don't like the TouchBar, I don't like the pricing, and am not sure the MBP 'esc' will quite cut it. And, then there is the whole USB-C mess, which I'm sure will eventually resolve (hopefully).
I think the super-thin, rounded edges, camera bump, etc. is bad design. That said, I can't imagine not putting a case on something that costs $800+ and is insanely fragile, that you carry around with you and take in and out of bag/pockets regularly.
Try building and selling a premium smartphone that's not thin and light. Those are desirable traits in a smartphone.
Now try putting a state of the art camera module into a smartphone that's thinner than that module. The bump is a compromise to thin, and in the real world, is mitigated with a case.
Rounded edges are there for so many reasons, but I'll pick a few. Try putting a smartphone without rounded edges into a pocket or purse. Chances are, it hangs up, especially on soft, breathable, fabrics.
Rounded edges also tend to keep the smartphone from catching on hard substrates and helps to reduce impact damage.
I'll throw in this; hard, smooth, anodized metal surfaces are attractive and scratch resistant and available in many colors.
I have difficulty calling the basic design for almost all successful smartphones "bad design".
But you, you know better than everyone else, so start your own company and profit!
Desirable for who? Ive?
My SE fits in my pocket better than a 7, even with it's non-rounded edges.
re: successful smartphones - what's the alternative? It's not like we have rounded and non-rounded with feature parity to choose from. Also, I didn't say rounded edges alone were bad design. Bad ergonomics, with poor tradeoffs to get there, is the bad design.
re: start your own company - let me know when you've come up with a few billion in VC, and I will.
2) No opinion on the Ive thing.
3) That's why I use mine as my prime mover. I want a big screen, I've got iPads.
And, do start that thread on advice on what to buy for Macs. It'll probably be good, lengthy, and heated.
Yet oddly Apple own figures show that people are holding phones longer and this has been the trend since the 6 was introduced. I think that is a very solid market vote that phone got to big and bulky even if they sold thinness as a saving grace.
Edit to add: The 6 being the first time your replacement phone wasn't a smaller volume than previous unless you upgraded from a 3G which in terms of volume is on par with the Plus.
*I'd like to note not many suggested at the time there should be options.
So, if given the choice between 1) an iPhone a bit thicker with more battery life and no camera bump, or 2) the current iPhone...
You're saying most people would chose 2? I don't think I believe that.
re: thread - I need to get my thoughts together, and I'll have to do that.
See any popular Android OS smartphones that meet your description?
Neither do I.
If there really was a market for these, some Android OS OEM would have attempted to fill it. At best, there are a few models available that nobody buys.
But, I'm kind of missing how that relates to the two options I presented to Mike's point.
Also, in case anyone was wondering what I meant above when I mentioned the USB-C mess, cf. http://ioblog.suider.com/type-c-personality/
80% of the smartphone market is Android OS.
Why isn't there a wide selection of devices a "bit thicker with more battery life and no camera bump"? Are Android OS users and iPhone users all that different tin tastes?
Consider that your belief is wrong; people, for the most part, don't care about either more battery life or the camera bump. They are happy as is.