But but...the MacBook Pro is overpriced and the dongle hell issue keeps everyone from buying them! And those iMacs...gosh, those are just so lame today!
Where are all of these people who basically said the new MacBook Pro will be a failure because of its lack of ports, you need a dongle for everything, its way too expensive? And don't give me this crap about well what if it had more ports and was cheaper, they'd sell twice as much. Thats absolute pure BS! That touch bar is just a gimmick and won't help sell the MacBook Pro.
Where are these people now? All quiet with their tail between their legs in defeat as usual. They never learn. Apple know its market a hell of a lot better than any one of us here. They see things we will never see. They have more data than we could possibly ever get. We need to stop trying to run Apple to suit our own needs. Our needs may not be the needs of the majority which is a hell of a lot more important to Apple as a company than a very small set of customers.
Almost... The truth is sometimes somewhere between!
The sales force market is what Apple sold to, not the real heavy-weigh creatives!
Apple saw the MacBook Air & MacBook (new) is what the sales force types want in size & weight with the performance of a MacBook Pro! Thats what Apple created and it sold to as it was the bigger market
If you are a real creative type or engineer the New MacBook Pro's fell short. They are the ones that have a big need in using ports and need gobs of RAM (video editing) This is the group Apple did not sell to. Apple needs to create a Pro's Pro (I'll call it the MacBook Pro-X) hitting all of the points Apple failed to address the Pro's need in a laptop. Maybe even coming out with a 17" model as well.
Yes! The creative & engineering users are vocal as they are in need of better gear too!
As an example the company I work for will be dropping 300+ MacBook Pro's and going to HP & Dell laptops. We just can't wait any more, 3 years in limbo! Our needs are ports Type A USB without dongles, removable storage (security) and long battery life. Within the next year or so I will likely loose my job because of the hardware switch. If Apple came out with the MacBook Pro-X I know the pro's would run and buy it. If it had come out in the spring our company would have bought replacements for what we have in the field and then some! And I would still a bright future supporting them all.
Side note for some reason paragraphs breaks don't seem to work for me in your GUI.
But but...the MacBook Pro is overpriced and the dongle hell issue keeps everyone from buying them! And those iMacs...gosh, those are just so lame today!
Where are all of these people who basically said the new MacBook Pro will be a failure because of its lack of ports, you need a dongle for everything, its way too expensive? And don't give me this crap about well what if it had more ports and was cheaper, they'd sell twice as much. Thats absolute pure BS! That touch bar is just a gimmick and won't help sell the MacBook Pro.
Where are these people now? All quiet with their tail between their legs in defeat as usual. They never learn. Apple know its market a hell of a lot better than any one of us here. They see things we will never see. They have more data than we could possibly ever get. We need to stop trying to run Apple to suit our own needs. Our needs may not be the needs of the majority which is a hell of a lot more important to Apple as a company than a very small set of customers.
>>> Almost... The truth is sometimes somewhere between! The sales force market is what Apple sold to, not the real heavy-weigh creatives! Apple saw the MacBook Air & MacBook (new) is what the sales force types want in size & weight with the performance of a MacBook Pro! Thats what Apple created and it sold to as it was the bigger market. <<<
>>> If you are a real creative type or engineer the New MacBook Pro's fell short. They are the ones that have a big need in using ports and need gobs of RAM (video editing) This is the group Apple did not sell to. Apple needs to create a Pro's Pro (i'll call it the MacBook Pro-X) hitting all of the points Apple failed to address. <<<
>>> Yes! The creative & engineering users are vocal as they are in need of better gear too! <<<
>>> As an example the company I work for will be dropping 300+ MacBook Pro's and going to HP & Dell laptops. We just can't wait any more, 3 years in limbo! Our needs are ports Type A USB without dongles, removable storage (security) and long battery life. Within the next year or so I will likely loose my job because of the hardware switch. If Apple came out with the MacBook Pro-X I know the pro's would run and buy it. If it had come out in the spring our company would have bought replacements for what we have in the field and then some! And I would still a bright future supporting them all. <<<
A USB-C to USB-B cable is $6. USB-C to micro-USB-B is $5. No dongles required. If you need 300 of them, you can probably get them cheaper.
Removable storage you won't find with a drive that has the speed of the MacBook Pro SSD, and you won't find in HP or Dell's workstations. Apple's battery life is best in class. Regarding RAM, talk to Intel. Kaby Lake doesn't support 32GB of LPDDR3 RAM, and to get there with LPDDR4 is two chip generations away. Other machines that can do it use a separate controller, and you won't get MacBook Pro battery life.
The Dell i7 15-inch with 32GB of RAM, and a slower 512GB SSD? It's $2899. It has a four-hour battery life.
If this is accurate, and I have no reason to believe it's not, your management and/or ownership are full of it and just want to be rid of Macs.
These Pros screaming for 32GB of RAM and beefy Apple hardware will need to put their money where their mouth is, and do it soon. The vast majority of Apple's market has spoken whether we like it or not. These Pros? They are in the low single-digits of 10 percent of Apple's business from a dollar perspective. At best, given Apple's own numbers, 0.5 percent, at best.
We need to stop trying to run Apple to suit our own needs. Our needs may not be the needs of the majority which is a hell of a lot more important to Apple as a company than a very small set of customers.
I don't think that they are trying to run Apple to adapt to their needs. They just want a device that adapt to their needs. And for many of them the Macbook have been their choice for years, and now they feel the 2016/2017 models miss important features that affect their workflow. And if you noticed, sales were flat even with the refresh of most devices. I don't think that's positive at all.
Sales were not flat. They were up year-over-year, and on the quarter as well, AND they were up in a quarter that the rest of the industry shrunk. The company does not operate in a vacuum.
4.29M from 4.25M YoY it's close to flat, IMO. But as you say, it still higher than the year before. But I would have expect higher numbers considering the recent iMac and MBP refresh.
This is something I've been trying to wrap my head around for a while. What features? What can't you get to with USB-C and TB3 that you could on the older machine? In what way is the machine a step backwards?
Based in what I have read, no USB 3.0 ports, not 32GB option and the removal of Magsafe were the most criticized things (which by the way, none of them affect my workflow). The other one, that I personally consider the worst is the keyboard. Is one of the worst I have ever used, specially when you have work with Thinkpads before.
We need to stop trying to run Apple to suit our own needs. Our needs may not be the needs of the majority which is a hell of a lot more important to Apple as a company than a very small set of customers.
I don't think that they are trying to run Apple to adapt to their needs. They just want a device that adapt to their needs. And for many of them the Macbook have been their choice for years, and now they feel the 2016/2017 models miss important features that affect their workflow. And if you noticed, sales were flat even with the refresh of most devices. I don't think that's positive at all.
Sales were not flat. They were up year-over-year, and on the quarter as well, AND they were up in a quarter that the rest of the industry shrunk. The company does not operate in a vacuum.
4.29M from 4.25M YoY it's close to flat, IMO. But as you say, it still higher than the year before. But I would have expect higher numbers considering the recent iMac and MBP refresh.
This is something I've been trying to wrap my head around for a while. What features? What can't you get to with USB-C and TB3 that you could on the older machine? In what way is the machine a step backwards?
Based in what I have read, no USB 3.0 ports, not 32GB option and the removal of Magsafe were the most criticized things (which by the way, none of them affect my workflow). The other one, that I personally consider the worst is the keyboard. Is one of the worst I have ever used, specially when you have work with Thinkpads before.
Correlation is not causation.
If it were, I could handily add that MS Surface revenue for the January Quarter was down 26% because many people have stated on the internet that don't want to fingerpaint bodily fluids all over their screens, a common complaint about hybrid 2 in 1's. The reality is the there was increased competition.
Let's wait awhile before we conclude that sales are "close to flat" because of lack of USB 3.0, lack of 32 GB DRAM, and lack of Magsafe. Apple did very, very, well compared to the market, so I'm thinking that maybe your supposition is wrong.
But but...the MacBook Pro is overpriced and the dongle hell issue keeps everyone from buying them! And those iMacs...gosh, those are just so lame today!
Where are all of these people who basically said the new MacBook Pro will be a failure because of its lack of ports, you need a dongle for everything, its way too expensive? And don't give me this crap about well what if it had more ports and was cheaper, they'd sell twice as much. Thats absolute pure BS! That touch bar is just a gimmick and won't help sell the MacBook Pro.
Where are these people now? All quiet with their tail between their legs in defeat as usual. They never learn. Apple know its market a hell of a lot better than any one of us here. They see things we will never see. They have more data than we could possibly ever get. We need to stop trying to run Apple to suit our own needs. Our needs may not be the needs of the majority which is a hell of a lot more important to Apple as a company than a very small set of customers.
>>> Almost... The truth is sometimes somewhere between! The sales force market is what Apple sold to, not the real heavy-weigh creatives! Apple saw the MacBook Air & MacBook (new) is what the sales force types want in size & weight with the performance of a MacBook Pro! Thats what Apple created and it sold to as it was the bigger market. <<<
>>> If you are a real creative type or engineer the New MacBook Pro's fell short. They are the ones that have a big need in using ports and need gobs of RAM (video editing) This is the group Apple did not sell to. Apple needs to create a Pro's Pro (i'll call it the MacBook Pro-X) hitting all of the points Apple failed to address. <<<
>>> Yes! The creative & engineering users are vocal as they are in need of better gear too! <<<
>>> As an example the company I work for will be dropping 300+ MacBook Pro's and going to HP & Dell laptops. We just can't wait any more, 3 years in limbo! Our needs are ports Type A USB without dongles, removable storage (security) and long battery life. Within the next year or so I will likely loose my job because of the hardware switch. If Apple came out with the MacBook Pro-X I know the pro's would run and buy it. If it had come out in the spring our company would have bought replacements for what we have in the field and then some! And I would still a bright future supporting them all. <<<
A USB-C to USB-B cable is $6. USB-C to micro-USB-B is $5. No dongles required. If you need 300 of them, you can probably get them cheaper.
From what I understood, the people that had issues with dongles were not related to price, specially when you consider that they are ready to purchase a +$1300 MBP. What they miss is the practicality of having the ports in the notebook.
Removable storage you won't find with a drive that has the speed of the MacBook Pro SSD, and you won't find in HP or Dell's workstations. Apple's battery life is best in class. Regarding RAM, talk to Intel. Kaby Lake doesn't support 32GB of LPDDR3 RAM, and to get there with LPDDR4 is two chip generations away. Other machines that can do it use a separate controller, and you won't get MacBook Pro battery life.
The Dell i7 15-inch with 32GB of RAM, and a slower 512GB SSD? It's $2899. It has a four-hour battery life.
You point out some advantages the MBP have over the HP Z workstations and Dell Precisions (SSD performance, battery life), and I may add weight, size and trackpad. But there are some benefits from HP and Dell workstations have over the MBP, as 32GB and 64GB of RAM, more ports, 3YR warranty standard with onsite support, discreet graphics in the 14" notebooks, spill resistant keyboard and 4K screens.
If this is accurate, and I have no reason to believe it's not, your management and/or ownership are full of it and just want to be rid of Macs.
These Pros screaming for 32GB of RAM and beefy Apple hardware will need to put their money where their mouth is, and do it soon. The vast majority of Apple's market has spoken whether we like it or not. These Pros? They are in the low single-digits of 10 percent of Apple's business from a dollar perspective. At best, given Apple's own numbers, 0.5 percent, at best.
I find interesting how HP and Dell, which have far less resources than Apple, make sure that small percentage of customers have a device that matches their needs and workflow, while, in your opinion, Apple should ignore them. Too bad.
But but...the MacBook Pro is overpriced and the dongle hell issue keeps everyone from buying them! And those iMacs...gosh, those are just so lame today!
Where are all of these people who basically said the new MacBook Pro will be a failure because of its lack of ports, you need a dongle for everything, its way too expensive? And don't give me this crap about well what if it had more ports and was cheaper, they'd sell twice as much. Thats absolute pure BS! That touch bar is just a gimmick and won't help sell the MacBook Pro.
Where are these people now? All quiet with their tail between their legs in defeat as usual. They never learn. Apple know its market a hell of a lot better than any one of us here. They see things we will never see. They have more data than we could possibly ever get. We need to stop trying to run Apple to suit our own needs. Our needs may not be the needs of the majority which is a hell of a lot more important to Apple as a company than a very small set of customers.
>>> Almost... The truth is sometimes somewhere between! The sales force market is what Apple sold to, not the real heavy-weigh creatives! Apple saw the MacBook Air & MacBook (new) is what the sales force types want in size & weight with the performance of a MacBook Pro! Thats what Apple created and it sold to as it was the bigger market. <<<
>>> If you are a real creative type or engineer the New MacBook Pro's fell short. They are the ones that have a big need in using ports and need gobs of RAM (video editing) This is the group Apple did not sell to. Apple needs to create a Pro's Pro (i'll call it the MacBook Pro-X) hitting all of the points Apple failed to address. <<<
>>> Yes! The creative & engineering users are vocal as they are in need of better gear too! <<<
>>> As an example the company I work for will be dropping 300+ MacBook Pro's and going to HP & Dell laptops. We just can't wait any more, 3 years in limbo! Our needs are ports Type A USB without dongles, removable storage (security) and long battery life. Within the next year or so I will likely loose my job because of the hardware switch. If Apple came out with the MacBook Pro-X I know the pro's would run and buy it. If it had come out in the spring our company would have bought replacements for what we have in the field and then some! And I would still a bright future supporting them all. <<<
A USB-C to USB-B cable is $6. USB-C to micro-USB-B is $5. No dongles required. If you need 300 of them, you can probably get them cheaper.
From what I understood, the people that had issues with dongles were not related to price, specially when you consider that they are ready to purchase a +$1300 MBP. What they miss is the practicality of having the ports in the notebook.
Removable storage you won't find with a drive that has the speed of the MacBook Pro SSD, and you won't find in HP or Dell's workstations. Apple's battery life is best in class. Regarding RAM, talk to Intel. Kaby Lake doesn't support 32GB of LPDDR3 RAM, and to get there with LPDDR4 is two chip generations away. Other machines that can do it use a separate controller, and you won't get MacBook Pro battery life.
The Dell i7 15-inch with 32GB of RAM, and a slower 512GB SSD? It's $2899. It has a four-hour battery life.
You point out some advantages the MBP have over the HP Z workstations and Dell Precisions (SSD performance, battery life), and I may add weight, size and trackpad. But there are some benefits from HP and Dell workstations have over the MBP, as 32GB and 64GB of RAM, more ports, 3YR warranty standard with onsite support, discreet graphics in the 14" notebooks, spill resistant keyboard and 4K screens.
If this is accurate, and I have no reason to believe it's not, your management and/or ownership are full of it and just want to be rid of Macs.
These Pros screaming for 32GB of RAM and beefy Apple hardware will need to put their money where their mouth is, and do it soon. The vast majority of Apple's market has spoken whether we like it or not. These Pros? They are in the low single-digits of 10 percent of Apple's business from a dollar perspective. At best, given Apple's own numbers, 0.5 percent, at best.
I find interesting how HP and Dell, which have far less resources than Apple, make sure that small percentage of customers have a device that matches their needs and workflow, while, in your opinion, Apple should ignore them. Too bad.
Don't attribute malice when there is none. I don't think that Apple should ignore them, and I am on record for saying that many, many times and I never said that here.
But, looking at the entire picture from the outside, it's pretty clear that's what's going on, and will continue to go on.
You're in a big business, given that 300 MBPs are headed to the scrapyard. You're telling me that 0.5 percent of your user base gets the same level of attention from a R&D standpoint that nine percent gets?
The complaints about the 2016 MBP started from the pros BEFORE THEY EVER HAD ONE, and one pro assumes that every other pro needs exactly the same thing which is ludicrous at its face. The complaints began literally, hour one after announcement.
What IS my opinion is that the drama about no USB-A ports is overblown, and Thunderbolt 3 with USB-C is a far more flexible, far higher bandwidth port, with several technical advantages. It will serve the future much better than the 5GBps USB 3.1 type A port will in every regard.
There are no practicality concerns with it that can't be solved by a standard cable -- and that's the whole point of USB-C as the connector and not something wacky, is it not?
We need to stop trying to run Apple to suit our own needs. Our needs may not be the needs of the majority which is a hell of a lot more important to Apple as a company than a very small set of customers.
I don't think that they are trying to run Apple to adapt to their needs. They just want a device that adapt to their needs. And for many of them the Macbook have been their choice for years, and now they feel the 2016/2017 models miss important features that affect their workflow. And if you noticed, sales were flat even with the refresh of most devices. I don't think that's positive at all.
Sales were not flat. They were up year-over-year, and on the quarter as well, AND they were up in a quarter that the rest of the industry shrunk. The company does not operate in a vacuum.
4.29M from 4.25M YoY it's close to flat, IMO. But as you say, it still higher than the year before. But I would have expect higher numbers considering the recent iMac and MBP refresh.
This is something I've been trying to wrap my head around for a while. What features? What can't you get to with USB-C and TB3 that you could on the older machine? In what way is the machine a step backwards?
Based in what I have read, no USB 3.0 ports, not 32GB option and the removal of Magsafe were the most criticized things (which by the way, none of them affect my workflow). The other one, that I personally consider the worst is the keyboard. Is one of the worst I have ever used, specially when you have work with Thinkpads before.
Correlation is not causation.
If it were, I could handily add that MS Surface revenue for the January Quarter was down 26% because many people have stated on the internet that don't want to fingerpaint bodily fluids all over their screens, a common complaint about hybrid 2 in 1's. The reality is the there was increased competition.
Let's wait awhile before we conclude that sales are "close to flat" because of lack of USB 3.0, lack of 32 GB DRAM, and lack of Magsafe. Apple did very, very, well compared to the market, so I'm thinking that maybe your supposition is wrong.
If that's the case, I could say that iPad had the same issues with fingerpaint bodily fluids all over their screen, so their sales were down for close to three years (at last last quarter was positive for iPad's). But I don't think you'll agree.
You mentioned on reason of the revenue dip, increased competition, and the article mentions a second reason, aging product line. In Apple case, they have no competition if you are looking for need a MacOS device, different from the Surface Pro, where you can find many 2-in-1 devices. So Apple have a big advantage here, and still sales are close to flat.
Second, aging product line, since the SP4 was close to 1 - 1/2 years without updates. Apple had recently updated most of their devices, and that was the reason I was expecting a larger growth.
What it's clear is that the MBP 2016/2017 had a very negative feedback, and most of them was related to lack of ports, the 16GB limit, removal of magsafe and the keyboard (which I consider one of the worst in the market).
I find interesting how HP and Dell, which have far less resources than Apple, make sure that small percentage of customers have a device that matches their needs and workflow, while, in your opinion, Apple should ignore them. Too bad.
Client Solutions Group continued to outgrow the market worldwide for units in both commercial and consumer product categories on a calendar year basis. Revenue for the fiscal fourth quarter was $9.8 billion, up 11 percent versus the fourth quarter of last year, and revenue for the full year was $36.8 billion, up 2 percent year over fiscal year 2016. Operating income was $342 million for the quarter, and $1.8 billion for the full year.
You would think that Dell, as an example, would be making more profit off of its much larger share of the PC market, especially with all of those niches, than Apple does, but they don't.
Perhaps Dell is doing it wrong? That probably goes for HP as well.
But but...the MacBook Pro is overpriced and the dongle hell issue keeps everyone from buying them! And those iMacs...gosh, those are just so lame today!
Where are all of these people who basically said the new MacBook Pro will be a failure because of its lack of ports, you need a dongle for everything, its way too expensive? And don't give me this crap about well what if it had more ports and was cheaper, they'd sell twice as much. Thats absolute pure BS! That touch bar is just a gimmick and won't help sell the MacBook Pro.
Where are these people now? All quiet with their tail between their legs in defeat as usual. They never learn. Apple know its market a hell of a lot better than any one of us here. They see things we will never see. They have more data than we could possibly ever get. We need to stop trying to run Apple to suit our own needs. Our needs may not be the needs of the majority which is a hell of a lot more important to Apple as a company than a very small set of customers.
>>> Almost... The truth is sometimes somewhere between! The sales force market is what Apple sold to, not the real heavy-weigh creatives! Apple saw the MacBook Air & MacBook (new) is what the sales force types want in size & weight with the performance of a MacBook Pro! Thats what Apple created and it sold to as it was the bigger market. <<<
>>> If you are a real creative type or engineer the New MacBook Pro's fell short. They are the ones that have a big need in using ports and need gobs of RAM (video editing) This is the group Apple did not sell to. Apple needs to create a Pro's Pro (i'll call it the MacBook Pro-X) hitting all of the points Apple failed to address. <<<
>>> Yes! The creative & engineering users are vocal as they are in need of better gear too! <<<
>>> As an example the company I work for will be dropping 300+ MacBook Pro's and going to HP & Dell laptops. We just can't wait any more, 3 years in limbo! Our needs are ports Type A USB without dongles, removable storage (security) and long battery life. Within the next year or so I will likely loose my job because of the hardware switch. If Apple came out with the MacBook Pro-X I know the pro's would run and buy it. If it had come out in the spring our company would have bought replacements for what we have in the field and then some! And I would still a bright future supporting them all. <<<
A USB-C to USB-B cable is $6. USB-C to micro-USB-B is $5. No dongles required. If you need 300 of them, you can probably get them cheaper.
From what I understood, the people that had issues with dongles were not related to price, specially when you consider that they are ready to purchase a +$1300 MBP. What they miss is the practicality of having the ports in the notebook.
Removable storage you won't find with a drive that has the speed of the MacBook Pro SSD, and you won't find in HP or Dell's workstations. Apple's battery life is best in class. Regarding RAM, talk to Intel. Kaby Lake doesn't support 32GB of LPDDR3 RAM, and to get there with LPDDR4 is two chip generations away. Other machines that can do it use a separate controller, and you won't get MacBook Pro battery life.
The Dell i7 15-inch with 32GB of RAM, and a slower 512GB SSD? It's $2899. It has a four-hour battery life.
You point out some advantages the MBP have over the HP Z workstations and Dell Precisions (SSD performance, battery life), and I may add weight, size and trackpad. But there are some benefits from HP and Dell workstations have over the MBP, as 32GB and 64GB of RAM, more ports, 3YR warranty standard with onsite support, discreet graphics in the 14" notebooks, spill resistant keyboard and 4K screens.
If this is accurate, and I have no reason to believe it's not, your management and/or ownership are full of it and just want to be rid of Macs.
These Pros screaming for 32GB of RAM and beefy Apple hardware will need to put their money where their mouth is, and do it soon. The vast majority of Apple's market has spoken whether we like it or not. These Pros? They are in the low single-digits of 10 percent of Apple's business from a dollar perspective. At best, given Apple's own numbers, 0.5 percent, at best.
I find interesting how HP and Dell, which have far less resources than Apple, make sure that small percentage of customers have a device that matches their needs and workflow, while, in your opinion, Apple should ignore them. Too bad.
Don't attribute malice when there is none. I don't think that Apple should ignore them, and I am on record for saying that many, many times and I never said that here.
But, looking at the entire picture from the outside, it's pretty clear that's what's going on, and will continue to go on.
You're in a big business, given that 300 MBPs are headed to the scrapyard. You're telling me that 0.5 percent of your user base gets the same level of attention from a R&D standpoint that nine percent gets?
The complaints about the 2016 MBP started from the pros BEFORE THEY EVER HAD ONE, and one pro assumes that every other pro needs exactly the same thing which is ludicrous at its face. The complaints began literally, hour one after announcement.
What IS my opinion is that the drama about no USB-A ports is overblown, and Thunderbolt 3 with USB-C is a far more flexible, far higher bandwidth port, with several technical advantages. It will serve the future much better than the 5GBps USB 3.1 type A port will in every regard.
There are no practicality concerns with it that can't be solved by a standard cable -- and that's the whole point of USB-C as the connector and not something wacky, is it not?
I apologize that I misunderstood your post. Still, Apple did ignore the high end market in desktop and laptops. The Mac Pro is the worst offender, while the Macbook remove many things high end customers consider important, like SD reader, USB 3.0, magesafe connector and a good keyboard.
I agree with you that the issue with ports is overblown, but that's based in my line of work and workflow. Like I posted before, I'm looking forward to have a MBP 13", since most of the things that were removed don't affect my workflow (all but the awful keyboard). But you can't ignore when other people, in a different line of work with different needs, including professional users, are affected when USB 3.0 or the SD reader was removed from the MBP. It's clear that USB-C is far more capable and it's the future, but looks like people wasn't ready to switch to it in an instant.
But but...the MacBook Pro is overpriced and the dongle hell issue keeps everyone from buying them! And those iMacs...gosh, those are just so lame today!
Where are all of these people who basically said the new MacBook Pro will be a failure because of its lack of ports, you need a dongle for everything, its way too expensive? And don't give me this crap about well what if it had more ports and was cheaper, they'd sell twice as much. Thats absolute pure BS! That touch bar is just a gimmick and won't help sell the MacBook Pro.
Where are these people now? All quiet with their tail between their legs in defeat as usual. They never learn. Apple know its market a hell of a lot better than any one of us here. They see things we will never see. They have more data than we could possibly ever get. We need to stop trying to run Apple to suit our own needs. Our needs may not be the needs of the majority which is a hell of a lot more important to Apple as a company than a very small set of customers.
>>> Almost... The truth is sometimes somewhere between! The sales force market is what Apple sold to, not the real heavy-weigh creatives! Apple saw the MacBook Air & MacBook (new) is what the sales force types want in size & weight with the performance of a MacBook Pro! Thats what Apple created and it sold to as it was the bigger market. <<<
>>> If you are a real creative type or engineer the New MacBook Pro's fell short. They are the ones that have a big need in using ports and need gobs of RAM (video editing) This is the group Apple did not sell to. Apple needs to create a Pro's Pro (i'll call it the MacBook Pro-X) hitting all of the points Apple failed to address. <<<
>>> Yes! The creative & engineering users are vocal as they are in need of better gear too! <<<
>>> As an example the company I work for will be dropping 300+ MacBook Pro's and going to HP & Dell laptops. We just can't wait any more, 3 years in limbo! Our needs are ports Type A USB without dongles, removable storage (security) and long battery life. Within the next year or so I will likely loose my job because of the hardware switch. If Apple came out with the MacBook Pro-X I know the pro's would run and buy it. If it had come out in the spring our company would have bought replacements for what we have in the field and then some! And I would still a bright future supporting them all. <<<
A USB-C to USB-B cable is $6. USB-C to micro-USB-B is $5. No dongles required. If you need 300 of them, you can probably get them cheaper.
From what I understood, the people that had issues with dongles were not related to price, specially when you consider that they are ready to purchase a +$1300 MBP. What they miss is the practicality of having the ports in the notebook.
Removable storage you won't find with a drive that has the speed of the MacBook Pro SSD, and you won't find in HP or Dell's workstations. Apple's battery life is best in class. Regarding RAM, talk to Intel. Kaby Lake doesn't support 32GB of LPDDR3 RAM, and to get there with LPDDR4 is two chip generations away. Other machines that can do it use a separate controller, and you won't get MacBook Pro battery life.
The Dell i7 15-inch with 32GB of RAM, and a slower 512GB SSD? It's $2899. It has a four-hour battery life.
You point out some advantages the MBP have over the HP Z workstations and Dell Precisions (SSD performance, battery life), and I may add weight, size and trackpad. But there are some benefits from HP and Dell workstations have over the MBP, as 32GB and 64GB of RAM, more ports, 3YR warranty standard with onsite support, discreet graphics in the 14" notebooks, spill resistant keyboard and 4K screens.
If this is accurate, and I have no reason to believe it's not, your management and/or ownership are full of it and just want to be rid of Macs.
These Pros screaming for 32GB of RAM and beefy Apple hardware will need to put their money where their mouth is, and do it soon. The vast majority of Apple's market has spoken whether we like it or not. These Pros? They are in the low single-digits of 10 percent of Apple's business from a dollar perspective. At best, given Apple's own numbers, 0.5 percent, at best.
I find interesting how HP and Dell, which have far less resources than Apple, make sure that small percentage of customers have a device that matches their needs and workflow, while, in your opinion, Apple should ignore them. Too bad.
Don't attribute malice when there is none. I don't think that Apple should ignore them, and I am on record for saying that many, many times and I never said that here.
But, looking at the entire picture from the outside, it's pretty clear that's what's going on, and will continue to go on.
You're in a big business, given that 300 MBPs are headed to the scrapyard. You're telling me that 0.5 percent of your user base gets the same level of attention from a R&D standpoint that nine percent gets?
The complaints about the 2016 MBP started from the pros BEFORE THEY EVER HAD ONE, and one pro assumes that every other pro needs exactly the same thing which is ludicrous at its face. The complaints began literally, hour one after announcement.
What IS my opinion is that the drama about no USB-A ports is overblown, and Thunderbolt 3 with USB-C is a far more flexible, far higher bandwidth port, with several technical advantages. It will serve the future much better than the 5GBps USB 3.1 type A port will in every regard.
There are no practicality concerns with it that can't be solved by a standard cable -- and that's the whole point of USB-C as the connector and not something wacky, is it not?
I apologize that I misunderstood your post. Still, Apple did ignore the high end market in desktop and laptops. The Mac Pro is the worst offender, while the Macbook remove many things high end customers consider important, like SD reader, USB 3.0, magesafe connector and a good keyboard.
I agree with you that the issue with ports is overblown, but that's based in my line of work and workflow. Like I posted before, I'm looking forward to have a MBP 13", since most of the things that were removed don't affect my workflow (all but the awful keyboard). But you can't ignore when other people, in a different line of work with different needs, including professional users, are affected when USB 3.0 or the SD reader was removed from the MBP. It's clear that USB-C is far more capable and it's the future, but looks like people wasn't ready to switch to it in an instant.
USB-C is USB 3.0 compatible. You act as if they removed USB ports as opposed to added two more. Anyone dependent on USB peripherals welcomes having 4 ports instead of 2.
SD reader isn't really a pro requirement. For example the Nikon D5 is CF or XQD. Canon uses CF and CFast. Video is often on SSD sleds or CFast. Studio shooters often just shoot tethered not muck around with SD cards.
Folks shooting SD are mostly using mid-tier gear and not Pro gear.
I have a high end Dell laptop workstation. It sits unused because it's too heavy to even want to haul into the field. You need power anyway because the battery doesn't last long enough to matter. If I gotta lug a generator on site it defeats the purpose of having a laptop.
As a software engineer who also does FCPX for fun I call your assessment that the MBP isn't high end as bogus.
I find interesting how HP and Dell, which have far less resources than Apple, make sure that small percentage of customers have a device that matches their needs and workflow, while, in your opinion, Apple should ignore them. Too bad.
Client Solutions Group continued to outgrow the market worldwide for units in both commercial and consumer product categories on a calendar year basis. Revenue for the fiscal fourth quarter was $9.8 billion, up 11 percent versus the fourth quarter of last year, and revenue for the full year was $36.8 billion, up 2 percent year over fiscal year 2016. Operating income was $342 million for the quarter, and $1.8 billion for the full year.
You would think that Dell, as an example, would be making more profit off of its much larger share of the PC market, especially with all of those niches, than Apple does, but they don't.
Perhaps Dell is doing it wrong? That probably goes for HP as well.
That's exactly my point, with far less revenue/profit, HP and Dell keep ahead with their workstation line far ahead of what Apple offers, even though it's not a mass market business. Just compare an HP Z-840 to a Mac Pro, and you start to think what Apple were thinking when they release that device. HP even have the Z2 Mini, a workstation that's very similar as the Mac Mini. And what Apple have done with the Mac Mini? I won't even go there. That's the reason revenue/profit is meaningless for me as a customer. I just see devices and services, and Apple do excellent on some and fail in others, as every company today.
But but...the MacBook Pro is overpriced and the dongle hell issue keeps everyone from buying them! And those iMacs...gosh, those are just so lame today!
Where are all of these people who basically said the new MacBook Pro will be a failure because of its lack of ports, you need a dongle for everything, its way too expensive? And don't give me this crap about well what if it had more ports and was cheaper, they'd sell twice as much. Thats absolute pure BS! That touch bar is just a gimmick and won't help sell the MacBook Pro.
Where are these people now? All quiet with their tail between their legs in defeat as usual. They never learn. Apple know its market a hell of a lot better than any one of us here. They see things we will never see. They have more data than we could possibly ever get. We need to stop trying to run Apple to suit our own needs. Our needs may not be the needs of the majority which is a hell of a lot more important to Apple as a company than a very small set of customers.
>>> Almost... The truth is sometimes somewhere between! The sales force market is what Apple sold to, not the real heavy-weigh creatives! Apple saw the MacBook Air & MacBook (new) is what the sales force types want in size & weight with the performance of a MacBook Pro! Thats what Apple created and it sold to as it was the bigger market. <<<
>>> If you are a real creative type or engineer the New MacBook Pro's fell short. They are the ones that have a big need in using ports and need gobs of RAM (video editing) This is the group Apple did not sell to. Apple needs to create a Pro's Pro (i'll call it the MacBook Pro-X) hitting all of the points Apple failed to address. <<<
>>> Yes! The creative & engineering users are vocal as they are in need of better gear too! <<<
>>> As an example the company I work for will be dropping 300+ MacBook Pro's and going to HP & Dell laptops. We just can't wait any more, 3 years in limbo! Our needs are ports Type A USB without dongles, removable storage (security) and long battery life. Within the next year or so I will likely loose my job because of the hardware switch. If Apple came out with the MacBook Pro-X I know the pro's would run and buy it. If it had come out in the spring our company would have bought replacements for what we have in the field and then some! And I would still a bright future supporting them all. <<<
A USB-C to USB-B cable is $6. USB-C to micro-USB-B is $5. No dongles required. If you need 300 of them, you can probably get them cheaper.
From what I understood, the people that had issues with dongles were not related to price, specially when you consider that they are ready to purchase a +$1300 MBP. What they miss is the practicality of having the ports in the notebook.
Removable storage you won't find with a drive that has the speed of the MacBook Pro SSD, and you won't find in HP or Dell's workstations. Apple's battery life is best in class. Regarding RAM, talk to Intel. Kaby Lake doesn't support 32GB of LPDDR3 RAM, and to get there with LPDDR4 is two chip generations away. Other machines that can do it use a separate controller, and you won't get MacBook Pro battery life.
The Dell i7 15-inch with 32GB of RAM, and a slower 512GB SSD? It's $2899. It has a four-hour battery life.
You point out some advantages the MBP have over the HP Z workstations and Dell Precisions (SSD performance, battery life), and I may add weight, size and trackpad. But there are some benefits from HP and Dell workstations have over the MBP, as 32GB and 64GB of RAM, more ports, 3YR warranty standard with onsite support, discreet graphics in the 14" notebooks, spill resistant keyboard and 4K screens.
If this is accurate, and I have no reason to believe it's not, your management and/or ownership are full of it and just want to be rid of Macs.
These Pros screaming for 32GB of RAM and beefy Apple hardware will need to put their money where their mouth is, and do it soon. The vast majority of Apple's market has spoken whether we like it or not. These Pros? They are in the low single-digits of 10 percent of Apple's business from a dollar perspective. At best, given Apple's own numbers, 0.5 percent, at best.
I find interesting how HP and Dell, which have far less resources than Apple, make sure that small percentage of customers have a device that matches their needs and workflow, while, in your opinion, Apple should ignore them. Too bad.
Don't attribute malice when there is none. I don't think that Apple should ignore them, and I am on record for saying that many, many times and I never said that here.
But, looking at the entire picture from the outside, it's pretty clear that's what's going on, and will continue to go on.
You're in a big business, given that 300 MBPs are headed to the scrapyard. You're telling me that 0.5 percent of your user base gets the same level of attention from a R&D standpoint that nine percent gets?
The complaints about the 2016 MBP started from the pros BEFORE THEY EVER HAD ONE, and one pro assumes that every other pro needs exactly the same thing which is ludicrous at its face. The complaints began literally, hour one after announcement.
What IS my opinion is that the drama about no USB-A ports is overblown, and Thunderbolt 3 with USB-C is a far more flexible, far higher bandwidth port, with several technical advantages. It will serve the future much better than the 5GBps USB 3.1 type A port will in every regard.
There are no practicality concerns with it that can't be solved by a standard cable -- and that's the whole point of USB-C as the connector and not something wacky, is it not?
I apologize that I misunderstood your post. Still, Apple did ignore the high end market in desktop and laptops. The Mac Pro is the worst offender, while the Macbook remove many things high end customers consider important, like SD reader, USB 3.0, magesafe connector and a good keyboard.
I agree with you that the issue with ports is overblown, but that's based in my line of work and workflow. Like I posted before, I'm looking forward to have a MBP 13", since most of the things that were removed don't affect my workflow (all but the awful keyboard). But you can't ignore when other people, in a different line of work with different needs, including professional users, are affected when USB 3.0 or the SD reader was removed from the MBP. It's clear that USB-C is far more capable and it's the future, but looks like people wasn't ready to switch to it in an instant.
USB-C is USB 3.0 compatible. You act as if they removed USB ports as opposed to added two more. Anyone dependent on USB peripherals welcomes having 4 ports instead of 2.
SD reader isn't really a pro requirement. For example the Nikon D5 is CF or XQD. Canon uses CF and CFast. Video is often on SSD sleds or CFast. Studio shooters often just shoot tethered not muck around with SD cards.
Folks shooting SD are mostly using mid-tier gear and not Pro gear.
I have a high end Dell laptop workstation. It sits unused because it's too heavy to even want to haul into the field. You need power anyway because the battery doesn't last long enough to matter. If I gotta lug a generator on site it defeats the purpose of having a laptop.
As a software engineer who also does FCPX for fun I call your assessment that the MBP isn't high end as bogus.
I suppose you didn't read my line "I agree with you that the issue with ports is overblown". I see no issues at all with USB ports in the MBP, but other people do.
SD reader, as you said, may apply to mid-tier gear. But still those users still need the SD reader on a MBP, and it's a valid request for their workflow.
I don't know what model of Precision you have, but the Dell Precision 5520 is ligher (3.96lbs) and thinner than the MBP 2017. I read a few tests, and found to have an excellent battery life. IMO, working with a notebook plugged in won't defeat it's purpose. Many of them have notebooks because is more practical when traveling from home to work or visiting customers, not because they can work a whole day in battery.
Since you are a software engineer, and have fun with FCPX, can you find where did I say that the MBP isn't a high end notebook? Did you noticed that I even compared it to Dell Precision and HP Z workstations, that are high end devices too?
For a long time Apple made laptops without enough holes in them and those devices need to be replaced. Brilliant!
But the larger reason is that having the new chassis MBP is a status symbol for some. Dare I say, almost like owning a BMW (i.e., not the best bang for the buck, but sufficiently respected and popular enough that everyone knows you had the buck).
I'd like to see the numbers on the UltraFine 5K sales...The product has been widely panned in its reviews on the AppleStore website but many who buy at retail or add it to their order at checkout would have been unaware of its shielding and grounding issues (which may shorten the life of their new MBP).
From what I understood, the people that had issues with dongles were not related to price, specially when you consider that they are ready to purchase a +$1300 MBP. What they miss is the practicality of having the ports in the notebook.
Removable storage you won't find with a drive that has the speed of the MacBook Pro SSD, and you won't find in HP or Dell's workstations. Apple's battery life is best in class. Regarding RAM, talk to Intel. Kaby Lake doesn't support 32GB of LPDDR3 RAM, and to get there with LPDDR4 is two chip generations away. Other machines that can do it use a separate controller, and you won't get MacBook Pro battery life.
The Dell i7 15-inch with 32GB of RAM, and a slower 512GB SSD? It's $2899. It has a four-hour battery life.
You point out some advantages the MBP have over the HP Z workstations and Dell Precisions (SSD performance, battery life), and I may add weight, size and trackpad. But there are some benefits from HP and Dell workstations have over the MBP, as 32GB and 64GB of RAM, more ports, 3YR warranty standard with onsite support, discreet graphics in the 14" notebooks, spill resistant keyboard and 4K screens.
If this is accurate, and I have no reason to believe it's not, your management and/or ownership are full of it and just want to be rid of Macs.
These Pros screaming for 32GB of RAM and beefy Apple hardware will need to put their money where their mouth is, and do it soon. The vast majority of Apple's market has spoken whether we like it or not. These Pros? They are in the low single-digits of 10 percent of Apple's business from a dollar perspective. At best, given Apple's own numbers, 0.5 percent, at best.
I find interesting how HP and Dell, which have far less resources than Apple, make sure that small percentage of customers have a device that matches their needs and workflow, while, in your opinion, Apple should ignore them. Too bad.
Don't attribute malice when there is none. I don't think that Apple should ignore them, and I am on record for saying that many, many times and I never said that here.
But, looking at the entire picture from the outside, it's pretty clear that's what's going on, and will continue to go on.
You're in a big business, given that 300 MBPs are headed to the scrapyard. You're telling me that 0.5 percent of your user base gets the same level of attention from a R&D standpoint that nine percent gets?
The complaints about the 2016 MBP started from the pros BEFORE THEY EVER HAD ONE, and one pro assumes that every other pro needs exactly the same thing which is ludicrous at its face. The complaints began literally, hour one after announcement.
What IS my opinion is that the drama about no USB-A ports is overblown, and Thunderbolt 3 with USB-C is a far more flexible, far higher bandwidth port, with several technical advantages. It will serve the future much better than the 5GBps USB 3.1 type A port will in every regard.
There are no practicality concerns with it that can't be solved by a standard cable -- and that's the whole point of USB-C as the connector and not something wacky, is it not?
I apologize that I misunderstood your post. Still, Apple did ignore the high end market in desktop and laptops. The Mac Pro is the worst offender, while the Macbook remove many things high end customers consider important, like SD reader, USB 3.0, magesafe connector and a good keyboard.
I agree with you that the issue with ports is overblown, but that's based in my line of work and workflow. Like I posted before, I'm looking forward to have a MBP 13", since most of the things that were removed don't affect my workflow (all but the awful keyboard). But you can't ignore when other people, in a different line of work with different needs, including professional users, are affected when USB 3.0 or the SD reader was removed from the MBP. It's clear that USB-C is far more capable and it's the future, but looks like people wasn't ready to switch to it in an instant.
USB-C is USB 3.0 compatible. You act as if they removed USB ports as opposed to added two more. Anyone dependent on USB peripherals welcomes having 4 ports instead of 2.
SD reader isn't really a pro requirement. For example the Nikon D5 is CF or XQD. Canon uses CF and CFast. Video is often on SSD sleds or CFast. Studio shooters often just shoot tethered not muck around with SD cards.
Folks shooting SD are mostly using mid-tier gear and not Pro gear.
I have a high end Dell laptop workstation. It sits unused because it's too heavy to even want to haul into the field. You need power anyway because the battery doesn't last long enough to matter. If I gotta lug a generator on site it defeats the purpose of having a laptop.
As a software engineer who also does FCPX for fun I call your assessment that the MBP isn't high end as bogus.
I suppose you didn't read my line "I agree with you that the issue with ports is overblown". I see no issues at all with USB ports in the MBP, but other people do.
SD reader, as you said, may apply to mid-tier gear. But still those users still need the SD reader on a MBP, and it's a valid request for their workflow.
You mentioned ports. If it's overblown then its not worth mentioning. Some users require a DVD burner and it's a "valid request for their workflow". So what? It's still not a pro/higher end requirement.
I don't know what model of Precision you have, but the Dell Precision 5520 is ligher (3.96lbs) and thinner than the MBP 2017. I read a few tests, and found to have an excellent battery life. IMO, working with a notebook plugged in won't defeat it's purpose. Many of them have notebooks because is more practical when traveling from home to work or visiting customers, not because they can work a whole day in battery.
I have the Precision 7710.
The 5520 can't have 64GB RAM (32GB limit) and configured the same way as my $2799 MBP with 2.9Ghz quad i7, M2 PCIe 512GB SSD, 16GB RAM and Quadro M1200 is $4355. More importantly the 5520 is significantly thermally limited and scores LOWER than the entry level $2400 15" MBP (2.8 Ghz 7700HQ, Radeon Pro 555) in the PCMark 8 Work benchmark (4291 vs 4648) even when using the higher clocked (and more expensive) 3.0Ghz Kaby Lake Xeon E3-1505M.
Note that the price only comes with 1 year service. 32GB RAM is an additional $560. Woot.
It has 4 hours battery life (better than my 7710 but that's not saying much) vs 10 hours on the MBP in the WiFi test. Using the 97 WHr battery it's better at 7 hrs but then it weighs 4.56 lbs and costs $90 more. You want lighter you have to live with a 4 hour battery.
The Dell laptop keyboards are iffy...some users of the very similar XPS 15 9560 (the consumer version of the 5520) report keys double typing. My 7710 doesn't have this issue thankfully. It would drive me nuts...especially given how expensive it was. Lenovo has better keyboards.
Unless you specifically need 32GB the 15" MBP is superior to the 5520 at far less cost. If you need true workstation performance, don't get the 5520, get the 7520. It's heavy as sin but comes with 3 year support standard (note: next business day service costs you an extra $250) and isn't thermally crippled. It isn't a laptop you'll be happy lugging home at night or visiting customers. For field work, it's easier to throw a real workstation into a pelican case and ship it with a monitor than lug this thing around AND live with the compromises.
We need to stop trying to run Apple to suit our own needs. Our needs may not be the needs of the majority which is a hell of a lot more important to Apple as a company than a very small set of customers.
I don't think that they are trying to run Apple to adapt to their needs. They just want a device that adapt to their needs. And for many of them the Macbook have been their choice for years, and now they feel the 2016/2017 models miss important features that affect their workflow. And if you noticed, sales were flat even with the refresh of most devices. I don't think that's positive at all.
Sales were not flat. They were up year-over-year, and on the quarter as well, AND they were up in a quarter that the rest of the industry shrunk. The company does not operate in a vacuum.
4.29M from 4.25M YoY it's close to flat, IMO. But as you say, it still higher than the year before. But I would have expect higher numbers considering the recent iMac and MBP refresh.
This is something I've been trying to wrap my head around for a while. What features? What can't you get to with USB-C and TB3 that you could on the older machine? In what way is the machine a step backwards?
Based in what I have read, no USB 3.0 ports, not 32GB option and the removal of Magsafe were the most criticized things (which by the way, none of them affect my workflow). The other one, that I personally consider the worst is the keyboard. Is one of the worst I have ever used, specially when you have work with Thinkpads before.
Based on what you have read?
And there's the problem right there , folks.
No actual purchase. No actual tryout. No experience with the product. Just read something somewhere, and repeated it.
And you may not think that the rise in sales is significant, but it is when you consider that the rest of the market is not doing spectacularly well. People just don't need to upgrade PCs as often as they used to.
danvm said: I agree with you that the issue with ports is overblown, but that's based in my line of work and workflow. Like I posted before, I'm looking forward to have a MBP 13", since most of the things that were removed don't affect my workflow (all but the awful keyboard). But you can't ignore when other people, in a different line of work with different needs, including professional users, are affected when USB 3.0 or the SD reader was removed from the MBP. It's clear that USB-C is far more capable and it's the future, but looks like people wasn't ready to switch to it in an instant.
What's funny to me is that the keyboard on this 2016 MacBook Pro is the best keyboard I've ever owned since the original ADB Extended Keyboard I got in 1989 (never liked the soft bottom of the ADB Extended Keyboard II that everybody raves about).
I didn't much like the 2016 MacBook keyboard when I tested it, but this thing (Pro)…sooo good.
I'll admit that it took me about a day to get used to it, though.
I remember well when the SD slot was added and PRO users were up in arms about how ridiculous it was to remove an actual professional interface (the PC card slot) in favor of the toy standard SD card used by consumer equipment (all pro gear at the time was on Compact Flash). I'm pretty sure that those whose workflow involves an SD card reader are equally dependent upon USB-A ports, so a $20 dongle that does both is a great solution, problem solved, end of story.
And no, requiring a dongle is not "unprofessional" — all of us media pros carry around a bag of various cables and adapters at all times, and have for decades. Fact of life.
I also remember when the whole hoo-hah about glossy screens hit the fan in late 2008, this one customer came into the store about six or eight months later when new models dropped to take a quick look. He was obviously very pressed for time, but he made a point to stop and tell me that he was a sports photographer, making a rather good living with his machines and cameras, and that "all this crap" about the glossy screens was total bogus. Best screen he'd ever used, and best laptop he'd ever used. He was just so busy making money that he had no time to drop in and dispute all the crap he'd read online.
Every design decision, even a minor refresh, is going to affect somebody's special needs.
Most of us just weigh our options, and when the usual "Cupertino giveth; Cupertino taketh away" happens, we just take a deep breath, reconsider, and then start rebalancing our budgets.
Side note: How brilliant is it that I can use a single power supply to power the Mac, the iPad, AND the iPhone? Yeah, I had to buy a USB-C to Lightning cable. So what.
From what I understood, the people that had issues with dongles were not related to price, specially when you consider that they are ready to purchase a +$1300 MBP. What they miss is the practicality of having the ports in the notebook.
Removable storage you won't find with a drive that has the speed of the MacBook Pro SSD, and you won't find in HP or Dell's workstations. Apple's battery life is best in class. Regarding RAM, talk to Intel. Kaby Lake doesn't support 32GB of LPDDR3 RAM, and to get there with LPDDR4 is two chip generations away. Other machines that can do it use a separate controller, and you won't get MacBook Pro battery life.
The Dell i7 15-inch with 32GB of RAM, and a slower 512GB SSD? It's $2899. It has a four-hour battery life.
You point out some advantages the MBP have over the HP Z workstations and Dell Precisions (SSD performance, battery life), and I may add weight, size and trackpad. But there are some benefits from HP and Dell workstations have over the MBP, as 32GB and 64GB of RAM, more ports, 3YR warranty standard with onsite support, discreet graphics in the 14" notebooks, spill resistant keyboard and 4K screens.
If this is accurate, and I have no reason to believe it's not, your management and/or ownership are full of it and just want to be rid of Macs.
These Pros screaming for 32GB of RAM and beefy Apple hardware will need to put their money where their mouth is, and do it soon. The vast majority of Apple's market has spoken whether we like it or not. These Pros? They are in the low single-digits of 10 percent of Apple's business from a dollar perspective. At best, given Apple's own numbers, 0.5 percent, at best.
I find interesting how HP and Dell, which have far less resources than Apple, make sure that small percentage of customers have a device that matches their needs and workflow, while, in your opinion, Apple should ignore them. Too bad.
Don't attribute malice when there is none. I don't think that Apple should ignore them, and I am on record for saying that many, many times and I never said that here.
But, looking at the entire picture from the outside, it's pretty clear that's what's going on, and will continue to go on.
You're in a big business, given that 300 MBPs are headed to the scrapyard. You're telling me that 0.5 percent of your user base gets the same level of attention from a R&D standpoint that nine percent gets?
The complaints about the 2016 MBP started from the pros BEFORE THEY EVER HAD ONE, and one pro assumes that every other pro needs exactly the same thing which is ludicrous at its face. The complaints began literally, hour one after announcement.
What IS my opinion is that the drama about no USB-A ports is overblown, and Thunderbolt 3 with USB-C is a far more flexible, far higher bandwidth port, with several technical advantages. It will serve the future much better than the 5GBps USB 3.1 type A port will in every regard.
There are no practicality concerns with it that can't be solved by a standard cable -- and that's the whole point of USB-C as the connector and not something wacky, is it not?
I apologize that I misunderstood your post. Still, Apple did ignore the high end market in desktop and laptops. The Mac Pro is the worst offender, while the Macbook remove many things high end customers consider important, like SD reader, USB 3.0, magesafe connector and a good keyboard.
I agree with you that the issue with ports is overblown, but that's based in my line of work and workflow. Like I posted before, I'm looking forward to have a MBP 13", since most of the things that were removed don't affect my workflow (all but the awful keyboard). But you can't ignore when other people, in a different line of work with different needs, including professional users, are affected when USB 3.0 or the SD reader was removed from the MBP. It's clear that USB-C is far more capable and it's the future, but looks like people wasn't ready to switch to it in an instant.
USB-C is USB 3.0 compatible. You act as if they removed USB ports as opposed to added two more. Anyone dependent on USB peripherals welcomes having 4 ports instead of 2.
SD reader isn't really a pro requirement. For example the Nikon D5 is CF or XQD. Canon uses CF and CFast. Video is often on SSD sleds or CFast. Studio shooters often just shoot tethered not muck around with SD cards.
Folks shooting SD are mostly using mid-tier gear and not Pro gear.
I have a high end Dell laptop workstation. It sits unused because it's too heavy to even want to haul into the field. You need power anyway because the battery doesn't last long enough to matter. If I gotta lug a generator on site it defeats the purpose of having a laptop.
As a software engineer who also does FCPX for fun I call your assessment that the MBP isn't high end as bogus.
I suppose you didn't read my line "I agree with you that the issue with ports is overblown". I see no issues at all with USB ports in the MBP, but other people do.
SD reader, as you said, may apply to mid-tier gear. But still those users still need the SD reader on a MBP, and it's a valid request for their workflow.
You mentioned ports. If it's overblown then its not worth mentioning. Some users require a DVD burner and it's a "valid request for their workflow". So what? It's still not a pro/higher end requirement.
I don't know what model of Precision you have, but the Dell Precision 5520 is ligher (3.96lbs) and thinner than the MBP 2017. I read a few tests, and found to have an excellent battery life. IMO, working with a notebook plugged in won't defeat it's purpose. Many of them have notebooks because is more practical when traveling from home to work or visiting customers, not because they can work a whole day in battery.
I mentioned the ports because it was related to my original point, that even though ports is not an issue for you an me, it's a big issue for others. Can they had a USB dongle? Yes. Bur for many reasons you'll find it's not the best option for THEM, even though is not an issue for US.
I have the Precision 7710.
The 5520 can't have 64GB RAM (32GB limit) and configured the same way as my $2799 MBP with 2.9Ghz quad i7, M2 PCIe 512GB SSD, 16GB RAM and Quadro M1200 is $4355. More importantly the 5520 is significantly thermally limited and scores LOWER than the entry level $2400 15" MBP (2.8 Ghz 7700HQ, Radeon Pro 555) in the PCMark 8 Work benchmark (4291 vs 4648) even when using the higher clocked (and more expensive) 3.0Ghz Kaby Lake Xeon E3-1505M.
Note that the price only comes with 1 year service. 32GB RAM is an additional $560. Woot.
It has 4 hours battery life (better than my 7710 but that's not saying much) vs 10 hours on the MBP in the WiFi test. Using the 97 WHr battery it's better at 7 hrs but then it weighs 4.56 lbs and costs $90 more. You want lighter you have to live with a 4 hour battery.
The Dell laptop keyboards are iffy...some users of the very similar XPS 15 9560 (the consumer version of the 5520) report keys double typing. My 7710 doesn't have this issue thankfully. It would drive me nuts...especially given how expensive it was. Lenovo has better keyboards.
In my post I was referring that you can have 32GB and 64GB of RAM in Dell Precisions in general, not in the 5520. I did the exercise, went to the Dell website and configure a Precision 5520 with a i7 7820HQ (2.9GHz), 4K screen, 16GB of RAM, 512GB PCIe SSD Class 50, NVidia Quadro M1200 w/ 4GB GDDR5 and 3YR of basic warranty, and it went for $2813.00. That's a little different from your $4355.00.
Regarding throttling, I didn't found others review with the same issue. For example, this article mentioned "The processor's peak temperature of 91°C is a tad high, but the clock speed never throttled and the silicon never became unstable."
Same as battery life, where for example, the like below had the 5520 at +11 hours of continuous web browsing over Wi-Fi. Other article had it in +8 hours. Both are more time than the +4 hours of wifi browsing. .
About keyboards, I read the same as you. Apparently it isn't the best keyboard, so it looks like Dell and Apple have work to do on the typing experience. As today, Lenovo still the leader in keyboards, by far.
Unless you specifically need 32GB the 15" MBP is superior to the 5520 at far less cost. If you need true workstation performance, don't get the 5520, get the 7520. It's heavy as sin but comes with 3 year support standard (note: next business day service costs you an extra $250) and isn't thermally crippled. It isn't a laptop you'll be happy lugging home at night or visiting customers. For field work, it's easier to throw a real workstation into a pelican case and ship it with a monitor than lug this thing around AND live with the compromises.
32GB of RAM, ports and 4K display are benefits of the 5520 over the MBP. Plus the cost, based in the exercise I did, is very similar to the MBP, even though it had 4K screen and 3Y warranty. IMO, both are great devices with their positives and negatives. I don't think Macbook/MBP are bad devices, but I don't think they are the absolute best, specially when compared to high end devices from Dell, HP and Lenovo.
We need to stop trying to run Apple to suit our own needs. Our needs may not be the needs of the majority which is a hell of a lot more important to Apple as a company than a very small set of customers.
I don't think that they are trying to run Apple to adapt to their needs. They just want a device that adapt to their needs. And for many of them the Macbook have been their choice for years, and now they feel the 2016/2017 models miss important features that affect their workflow. And if you noticed, sales were flat even with the refresh of most devices. I don't think that's positive at all.
Sales were not flat. They were up year-over-year, and on the quarter as well, AND they were up in a quarter that the rest of the industry shrunk. The company does not operate in a vacuum.
4.29M from 4.25M YoY it's close to flat, IMO. But as you say, it still higher than the year before. But I would have expect higher numbers considering the recent iMac and MBP refresh.
This is something I've been trying to wrap my head around for a while. What features? What can't you get to with USB-C and TB3 that you could on the older machine? In what way is the machine a step backwards?
Based in what I have read, no USB 3.0 ports, not 32GB option and the removal of Magsafe were the most criticized things (which by the way, none of them affect my workflow). The other one, that I personally consider the worst is the keyboard. Is one of the worst I have ever used, specially when you have work with Thinkpads before.
Based on what you have read?
And there's the problem right there , folks.
No actual purchase. No actual tryout. No experience with the product. Just read something somewhere, and repeated it.
And you may not think that the rise in sales is significant, but it is when you consider that the rest of the market is not doing spectacularly well. People just don't need to upgrade PCs as often as they used to.
I don't need to purchase or try a MBP to notice there are no USB 3.0 ports, SD readers or a maximum of 16GB of RAM. But regarding the keyboard, yes, I tried it since I'm looking forward to purchase a MBP 13", plus I have work with my customer 15" MBP 2016 and it's the same awful experience.
danvm said: I agree with you that the issue with ports is overblown, but that's based in my line of work and workflow. Like I posted before, I'm looking forward to have a MBP 13", since most of the things that were removed don't affect my workflow (all but the awful keyboard). But you can't ignore when other people, in a different line of work with different needs, including professional users, are affected when USB 3.0 or the SD reader was removed from the MBP. It's clear that USB-C is far more capable and it's the future, but looks like people wasn't ready to switch to it in an instant.
What's funny to me is that the keyboard on this 2016 MacBook Pro is the best keyboard I've ever owned since the original ADB Extended Keyboard I got in 1989 (never liked the soft bottom of the ADB Extended Keyboard II that everybody raves about).
I didn't much like the 2016 MacBook keyboard when I tested it, but this thing (Pro)…sooo good.
I'll admit that it took me about a day to get used to it, though.
Maybe it's the best keyboard you have ever owned. But have you try Lenovo Thinkpad keyboards, like the T470s or the X1 Carbon? You'll see what a great keyboard is. And I don't understand the "get used to it". Macbook trackpads are excellent, and I have not heard of someone the had to get used to it. It was good, period. If the Macbook/MBP keyboards are so good, why do I have get used to it?
I remember well when the SD slot was added and PRO users were up in arms about how ridiculous it was to remove an actual professional interface (the PC card slot) in favor of the toy standard SD card used by consumer equipment (all pro gear at the time was on Compact Flash). I'm pretty sure that those whose workflow involves an SD card reader are equally dependent upon USB-A ports, so a $20 dongle that does both is a great solution, problem solved, end of story.
And no, requiring a dongle is not "unprofessional" — all of us media pros carry around a bag of various cables and adapters at all times, and have for decades. Fact of life.
I also remember when the whole hoo-hah about glossy screens hit the fan in late 2008, this one customer came into the store about six or eight months later when new models dropped to take a quick look. He was obviously very pressed for time, but he made a point to stop and tell me that he was a sports photographer, making a rather good living with his machines and cameras, and that "all this crap" about the glossy screens was total bogus. Best screen he'd ever used, and best laptop he'd ever used. He was just so busy making money that he had no time to drop in and dispute all the crap he'd read online.
Every design decision, even a minor refresh, is going to affect somebody's special needs.
Most of us just weigh our options, and when the usual "Cupertino giveth; Cupertino taketh away" happens, we just take a deep breath, reconsider, and then start rebalancing our budgets.
Side note: How brilliant is it that I can use a single power supply to power the Mac, the iPad, AND the iPhone? Yeah, I had to buy a USB-C to Lightning cable. So what.
Again, I have no issues with the lack of ports in the Macbook/MBP, and agree with all the benefits of USB-C. But you, neither do I, can't ignore that for many people (pros and non pros) the removal of ports is an issue. That's the reason I made mention of it.
"But but...the MacBook Pro is overpriced and the dongle hell issue keeps everyone from buying them! And those iMacs...gosh, those are just so lame today!
Where are all of these people who basically said the new MacBook Pro will be a failure because of its lack of ports, you need a dongle for everything, its way too expensive? And don't give me this crap about well what if it had more ports and was cheaper, they'd sell twice as much. Thats absolute pure BS! That touch bar is just a gimmick and won't help sell the MacBook Pro.
Where are these people now? All quiet with their tail between their legs in defeat as usual. They never learn. Apple know its market a hell of a lot better than any one of us here. They see things we will never see. They have more data than we could possibly ever get. We need to stop trying to run Apple to suit our own needs. Our needs may not be the needs of the majority which is a hell of a lot more important to Apple as a company than a very small set of customers."
Almost... The truth is sometimes somewhere between! The sales force market is what Apple sold to not the creatives! Apple saw the MacBook Air & MacBook (new) is what the sales force types want in size & weight with performance! Thats what Apple created and it sold.
If you are a real creative type or engineer the New MacBook Pro's fell short. They are the ones that have a big need in using ports and need gobs of RAM (video editing) This is the group Apple did not sell to.
Comments
Almost... The truth is sometimes somewhere between!
The sales force market is what Apple sold to, not the real heavy-weigh creatives!
Based in what I have read, no USB 3.0 ports, not 32GB option and the removal of Magsafe were the most criticized things (which by the way, none of them affect my workflow). The other one, that I personally consider the worst is the keyboard. Is one of the worst I have ever used, specially when you have work with Thinkpads before.
If it were, I could handily add that MS Surface revenue for the January Quarter was down 26% because many people have stated on the internet that don't want to fingerpaint bodily fluids all over their screens, a common complaint about hybrid 2 in 1's. The reality is the there was increased competition.
https://www.engadget.com/2017/04/27/microsoft-surface-sales/
Let's wait awhile before we conclude that sales are "close to flat" because of lack of USB 3.0, lack of 32 GB DRAM, and lack of Magsafe. Apple did very, very, well compared to the market, so I'm thinking that maybe your supposition is wrong.
You point out some advantages the MBP have over the HP Z workstations and Dell Precisions (SSD performance, battery life), and I may add weight, size and trackpad. But there are some benefits from HP and Dell workstations have over the MBP, as 32GB and 64GB of RAM, more ports, 3YR warranty standard with onsite support, discreet graphics in the 14" notebooks, spill resistant keyboard and 4K screens.
I find interesting how HP and Dell, which have far less resources than Apple, make sure that small percentage of customers have a device that matches their needs and workflow, while, in your opinion, Apple should ignore them. Too bad.
You mentioned on reason of the revenue dip, increased competition, and the article mentions a second reason, aging product line. In Apple case, they have no competition if you are looking for need a MacOS device, different from the Surface Pro, where you can find many 2-in-1 devices. So Apple have a big advantage here, and still sales are close to flat.
Second, aging product line, since the SP4 was close to 1 - 1/2 years without updates. Apple had recently updated most of their devices, and that was the reason I was expecting a larger growth.
What it's clear is that the MBP 2016/2017 had a very negative feedback, and most of them was related to lack of ports, the 16GB limit, removal of magsafe and the keyboard (which I consider one of the worst in the market).
http://www.prnewswire.com/news-releases/dell-technologies-reports-fiscal-year-2017-fourth-quarter-and-full-year-financial-results-300431802.html
Client Solutions Group continued to outgrow the market worldwide for units in both commercial and consumer product categories on a calendar year basis. Revenue for the fiscal fourth quarter was $9.8 billion, up 11 percent versus the fourth quarter of last year, and revenue for the full year was $36.8 billion, up 2 percent year over fiscal year 2016. Operating income was $342 million for the quarter, and $1.8 billion for the full year.
Perhaps Dell is doing it wrong? That probably goes for HP as well.
I agree with you that the issue with ports is overblown, but that's based in my line of work and workflow. Like I posted before, I'm looking forward to have a MBP 13", since most of the things that were removed don't affect my workflow (all but the awful keyboard). But you can't ignore when other people, in a different line of work with different needs, including professional users, are affected when USB 3.0 or the SD reader was removed from the MBP. It's clear that USB-C is far more capable and it's the future, but looks like people wasn't ready to switch to it in an instant.
SD reader isn't really a pro requirement. For example the Nikon D5 is CF or XQD. Canon uses CF and CFast. Video is often on SSD sleds or CFast. Studio shooters often just shoot tethered not muck around with SD cards.
Folks shooting SD are mostly using mid-tier gear and not Pro gear.
I have a high end Dell laptop workstation. It sits unused because it's too heavy to even want to haul into the field. You need power anyway because the battery doesn't last long enough to matter. If I gotta lug a generator on site it defeats the purpose of having a laptop.
As a software engineer who also does FCPX for fun I call your assessment that the MBP isn't high end as bogus.
SD reader, as you said, may apply to mid-tier gear. But still those users still need the SD reader on a MBP, and it's a valid request for their workflow.
I don't know what model of Precision you have, but the Dell Precision 5520 is ligher (3.96lbs) and thinner than the MBP 2017. I read a few tests, and found to have an excellent battery life. IMO, working with a notebook plugged in won't defeat it's purpose. Many of them have notebooks because is more practical when traveling from home to work or visiting customers, not because they can work a whole day in battery.
Since you are a software engineer, and have fun with FCPX, can you find where did I say that the MBP isn't a high end notebook? Did you noticed that I even compared it to Dell Precision and HP Z workstations, that are high end devices too?
But the larger reason is that having the new chassis MBP is a status symbol for some. Dare I say, almost like owning a BMW (i.e., not the best bang for the buck, but sufficiently respected and popular enough that everyone knows you had the buck).
I'd like to see the numbers on the UltraFine 5K sales...The product has been widely panned in its reviews on the AppleStore website but many who buy at retail or add it to their order at checkout would have been unaware of its shielding and grounding issues (which may shorten the life of their new MBP).
I have the Precision 7710.
The 5520 can't have 64GB RAM (32GB limit) and configured the same way as my $2799 MBP with 2.9Ghz quad i7, M2 PCIe 512GB SSD, 16GB RAM and Quadro M1200 is $4355. More importantly the 5520 is significantly thermally limited and scores LOWER than the entry level $2400 15" MBP (2.8 Ghz 7700HQ, Radeon Pro 555) in the PCMark 8 Work benchmark (4291 vs 4648) even when using the higher clocked (and more expensive) 3.0Ghz Kaby Lake Xeon E3-1505M.
Note that the price only comes with 1 year service. 32GB RAM is an additional $560. Woot.
https://www.notebookcheck.net/Dell-Precision-5520-E3-1505M-UHD-Workstation-Review.213844.0.html
https://www.notebookcheck.net/Apple-MacBook-Pro-15-2017-2-8-GHz-555-Laptop-Review.230096.0.html
It has 4 hours battery life (better than my 7710 but that's not saying much) vs 10 hours on the MBP in the WiFi test. Using the 97 WHr battery it's better at 7 hrs but then it weighs 4.56 lbs and costs $90 more. You want lighter you have to live with a 4 hour battery.
The Dell laptop keyboards are iffy...some users of the very similar XPS 15 9560 (the consumer version of the 5520) report keys double typing. My 7710 doesn't have this issue thankfully. It would drive me nuts...especially given how expensive it was. Lenovo has better keyboards.
Unless you specifically need 32GB the 15" MBP is superior to the 5520 at far less cost. If you need true workstation performance, don't get the 5520, get the 7520. It's heavy as sin but comes with 3 year support standard (note: next business day service costs you an extra $250) and isn't thermally crippled. It isn't a laptop you'll be happy lugging home at night or visiting customers. For field work, it's easier to throw a real workstation into a pelican case and ship it with a monitor than lug this thing around AND live with the compromises.
And there's the problem right there , folks.
No actual purchase. No actual tryout. No experience with the product. Just read something somewhere, and repeated it.
And you may not think that the rise in sales is significant, but it is when you consider that the rest of the market is not doing spectacularly well. People just don't need to upgrade PCs as often as they used to.
I didn't much like the 2016 MacBook keyboard when I tested it, but this thing (Pro)…sooo good.
I'll admit that it took me about a day to get used to it, though.
I remember well when the SD slot was added and PRO users were up in arms about how ridiculous it was to remove an actual professional interface (the PC card slot) in favor of the toy standard SD card used by consumer equipment (all pro gear at the time was on Compact Flash). I'm pretty sure that those whose workflow involves an SD card reader are equally dependent upon USB-A ports, so a $20 dongle that does both is a great solution, problem solved, end of story.
And no, requiring a dongle is not "unprofessional" — all of us media pros carry around a bag of various cables and adapters at all times, and have for decades. Fact of life.
I also remember when the whole hoo-hah about glossy screens hit the fan in late 2008, this one customer came into the store about six or eight months later when new models dropped to take a quick look. He was obviously very pressed for time, but he made a point to stop and tell me that he was a sports photographer, making a rather good living with his machines and cameras, and that "all this crap" about the glossy screens was total bogus. Best screen he'd ever used, and best laptop he'd ever used. He was just so busy making money that he had no time to drop in and dispute all the crap he'd read online.
Every design decision, even a minor refresh, is going to affect somebody's special needs.
Most of us just weigh our options, and when the usual "Cupertino giveth; Cupertino taketh away" happens, we just take a deep breath, reconsider, and then start rebalancing our budgets.
Side note: How brilliant is it that I can use a single power supply to power the Mac, the iPad, AND the iPhone? Yeah, I had to buy a USB-C to Lightning cable. So what.
In my post I was referring that you can have 32GB and 64GB of RAM in Dell Precisions in general, not in the 5520. I did the exercise, went to the Dell website and configure a Precision 5520 with a i7 7820HQ (2.9GHz), 4K screen, 16GB of RAM, 512GB PCIe SSD Class 50, NVidia Quadro M1200 w/ 4GB GDDR5 and 3YR of basic warranty, and it went for $2813.00. That's a little different from your $4355.00.
Regarding throttling, I didn't found others review with the same issue. For example, this article mentioned "The processor's peak temperature of 91°C is a tad high, but the clock speed never throttled and the silicon never became unstable."
http://www.itpro.co.uk/laptops/28461/dell-precision-5520-review-1
Same as battery life, where for example, the like below had the 5520 at +11 hours of continuous web browsing over Wi-Fi. Other article had it in +8 hours. Both are more time than the +4 hours of wifi browsing. .
https://www.laptopmag.com/reviews/laptops/dell-precision-5520
About keyboards, I read the same as you. Apparently it isn't the best keyboard, so it looks like Dell and Apple have work to do on the typing experience. As today, Lenovo still the leader in keyboards, by far.
32GB of RAM, ports and 4K display are benefits of the 5520 over the MBP. Plus the cost, based in the exercise I did, is very similar to the MBP, even though it had 4K screen and 3Y warranty. IMO, both are great devices with their positives and negatives. I don't think Macbook/MBP are bad devices, but I don't think they are the absolute best, specially when compared to high end devices from Dell, HP and Lenovo.
Again, I have no issues with the lack of ports in the Macbook/MBP, and agree with all the benefits of USB-C. But you, neither do I, can't ignore that for many people (pros and non pros) the removal of ports is an issue. That's the reason I made mention of it.