danvm said: I agree with you that the issue with ports is overblown, but that's based in my line of work and workflow. Like I posted before, I'm looking forward to have a MBP 13", since most of the things that were removed don't affect my workflow (all but the awful keyboard). But you can't ignore when other people, in a different line of work with different needs, including professional users, are affected when USB 3.0 or the SD reader was removed from the MBP. It's clear that USB-C is far more capable and it's the future, but looks like people wasn't ready to switch to it in an instant.
What's funny to me is that the keyboard on this 2016 MacBook Pro is the best keyboard I've ever owned since the original ADB Extended Keyboard I got in 1989 (never liked the soft bottom of the ADB Extended Keyboard II that everybody raves about).
I didn't much like the 2016 MacBook keyboard when I tested it, but this thing (Pro)…sooo good.
I'll admit that it took me about a day to get used to it, though.
Maybe it's the best keyboard you have ever owned. But have you try Lenovo Thinkpad keyboards, like the T470s or the X1 Carbon? You'll see what a great keyboard is. And I don't understand the "get used to it". Macbook trackpads are excellent, and I have not heard of someone the had to get used to it. It was good, period. If the Macbook/MBP keyboards are so good, why do I have get used to it?
Because that's how our hands work?
I'm a professional keyboard player. Believe me, I'm fairly experienced when it comes to how fingers adjust to different tactile responses, amounts of travel, feedback, stiffness, bounce, and attack. Every single mechanical piano, every single different type of keyboard, takes some adjusting. I'll need a few minutes of playing just to acclimatise to each of the three pianos I have at home — an old acoustic, a 1977 Mk 1 Fender Rhodes, and a CP70 — and I've been playing those for years. Not to mention the 'boards I have in the studio, or the ones I take on the road.
I remember well when the SD slot was added and PRO users were up in arms about how ridiculous it was to remove an actual professional interface (the PC card slot) in favor of the toy standard SD card used by consumer equipment (all pro gear at the time was on Compact Flash). I'm pretty sure that those whose workflow involves an SD card reader are equally dependent upon USB-A ports, so a $20 dongle that does both is a great solution, problem solved, end of story.
And no, requiring a dongle is not "unprofessional" — all of us media pros carry around a bag of various cables and adapters at all times, and have for decades. Fact of life.
I also remember when the whole hoo-hah about glossy screens hit the fan in late 2008, this one customer came into the store about six or eight months later when new models dropped to take a quick look. He was obviously very pressed for time, but he made a point to stop and tell me that he was a sports photographer, making a rather good living with his machines and cameras, and that "all this crap" about the glossy screens was total bogus. Best screen he'd ever used, and best laptop he'd ever used. He was just so busy making money that he had no time to drop in and dispute all the crap he'd read online.
Every design decision, even a minor refresh, is going to affect somebody's special needs.
Most of us just weigh our options, and when the usual "Cupertino giveth; Cupertino taketh away" happens, we just take a deep breath, reconsider, and then start rebalancing our budgets.
Side note: How brilliant is it that I can use a single power supply to power the Mac, the iPad, AND the iPhone? Yeah, I had to buy a USB-C to Lightning cable. So what.
Again, I have no issues with the lack of ports in the Macbook/MBP, and agree with all the benefits of USB-C. But you, neither do I, can't ignore that for many people (pros and non pros) the removal of ports is an issue. That's the reason I made mention of it.
Of course it's an "issue". But not a major one, and unless there is somebody with a piece of hardware that actually breaks due to the port switch, I'm inclined not to take too seriously the concerns of people who have the time to whine all over the internet about how they are unable to work with a USB-C port.
Almost... The truth is sometimes somewhere between! The sales force market is what Apple sold to not the creatives! Apple saw the MacBook Air & MacBook (new) is what the sales force types want in size & weight with performance! Thats what Apple created and it sold.
If you are a real creative type or engineer the New MacBook Pro's fell short. They are the ones that have a big need in using ports and need gobs of RAM (video editing) This is the group Apple did not sell to.
But but...the MacBook Pro is overpriced and the dongle hell issue keeps everyone from buying them! And those iMacs...gosh, those are just so lame today!
Where are all of these people who basically said the new MacBook Pro will be a failure because of its lack of ports, you need a dongle for everything, its way too expensive? And don't give me this crap about well what if it had more ports and was cheaper, they'd sell twice as much. Thats absolute pure BS! That touch bar is just a gimmick and won't help sell the MacBook Pro.
Where are these people now? All quiet with their tail between their legs in defeat as usual. They never learn. Apple know its market a hell of a lot better than any one of us here. They see things we will never see. They have more data than we could possibly ever get. We need to stop trying to run Apple to suit our own needs. Our needs may not be the needs of the majority which is a hell of a lot more important to Apple as a company than a very small set of customers.
>>> Almost... The truth is sometimes somewhere between! The sales force market is what Apple sold to, not the real heavy-weigh creatives! Apple saw the MacBook Air & MacBook (new) is what the sales force types want in size & weight with the performance of a MacBook Pro! Thats what Apple created and it sold to as it was the bigger market. <<<
>>> If you are a real creative type or engineer the New MacBook Pro's fell short. They are the ones that have a big need in using ports and need gobs of RAM (video editing) This is the group Apple did not sell to. Apple needs to create a Pro's Pro (i'll call it the MacBook Pro-X) hitting all of the points Apple failed to address. <<<
>>> Yes! The creative & engineering users are vocal as they are in need of better gear too! <<<
>>> As an example the company I work for will be dropping 300+ MacBook Pro's and going to HP & Dell laptops. We just can't wait any more, 3 years in limbo! Our needs are ports Type A USB without dongles, removable storage (security) and long battery life. Within the next year or so I will likely loose my job because of the hardware switch. If Apple came out with the MacBook Pro-X I know the pro's would run and buy it. If it had come out in the spring our company would have bought replacements for what we have in the field and then some! And I would still a bright future supporting them all. <<<
A USB-C to USB-B cable is $6. USB-C to micro-USB-B is $5. No dongles required. If you need 300 of them, you can probably get them cheaper.
Removable storage you won't find with a drive that has the speed of the MacBook Pro SSD, and you won't find in HP or Dell's workstations. Apple's battery life is best in class. Regarding RAM, talk to Intel. Kaby Lake doesn't support 32GB of LPDDR3 RAM, and to get there with LPDDR4 is two chip generations away. Other machines that can do it use a separate controller, and you won't get MacBook Pro battery life.
The Dell i7 15-inch with 32GB of RAM, and a slower 512GB SSD? It's $2899. It has a four-hour battery life.
If this is accurate, and I have no reason to believe it's not, your management and/or ownership are full of it and just want to be rid of Macs.
These Pros screaming for 32GB of RAM and beefy Apple hardware will need to put their money where their mouth is, and do it soon. The vast majority of Apple's market has spoken whether we like it or not. These Pros? They are in the low single-digits of 10 percent of Apple's business from a dollar perspective. At best, given Apple's own numbers, 0.5 percent, at best.
Mike I'm not disagreeing with you. Apple saw a market that was underserved and it struct it and hit pay dirt! No question about that.
As for USB-B to USB-C cables. That works for printers and other devices that have removable cables. It doesn't solve the USB thumb drives and devices that don't have removable cables. Sadly we have a lot.
As far as storage theres more to it than speed it's gaining access to the data when the system craps out as well as the security of the data when the system needs to be serviced. Some of us work on stuff thats very confidential! Which is why removable internal storage is a must. Apples new SSD using in the 13" function key model appears to offer both speed & removability, so it can be done.
Our testing shows the Dell is 7~8 hours web surfing which is about the same for the MacBook Pro's using Chrome. So I'm not sure where you got 4 hours. Granted, this is not much of a load and in use. We can only get about 2hrs for either running CAD with our workloads in either. Which is why we need a bigger battery option. Right now we are using some external batteries when we have no choice. But they don't fit the USB-C port. I'm sure USB-C options will show up that will help but thats not now.
Yes, the heavy weight Pro market is much smaller but its also the group that made Apple Apple! If augmented reality (AR) is what Apple wants to get into its this group which will lead the pack. So if they can't do it with what Apple is selling were does that leave Apple?
Look at IBM with Watson this is a very expensive box and only a few 100 will be sold. Yet it will be what sets the mark in predictive analytical breakdown. I'm sure Apple has access to one or two for its AI efforts.
So big companies do see the value of small niche products that build sales indirectly. Apple needs to see the light here that this is no different! It's the development of the next big thing that it needs to nurture. Failing to do that will weaken its' importance as a leader.
As for the company I work for. They pleated directly with Apple quite a few times as they did not want to jump (they still don't want to). It was a very tough decision and was driven from the support staff not upper management. I know of one other mid-sized company that will likely do the same.
It's the small & mid-sized companies that don't have the deep pockets to rotate equipment like the bigger companies and they likewise want to squeeze out every ounce out of the gear they do buy or lease. This is the market Apple is loosing as in our case.
But but...the MacBook Pro is overpriced and the dongle hell issue keeps everyone from buying them! And those iMacs...gosh, those are just so lame today!
Where are all of these people who basically said the new MacBook Pro will be a failure because of its lack of ports, you need a dongle for everything, its way too expensive? And don't give me this crap about well what if it had more ports and was cheaper, they'd sell twice as much. Thats absolute pure BS! That touch bar is just a gimmick and won't help sell the MacBook Pro.
Where are these people now? All quiet with their tail between their legs in defeat as usual. They never learn. Apple know its market a hell of a lot better than any one of us here. They see things we will never see. They have more data than we could possibly ever get. We need to stop trying to run Apple to suit our own needs. Our needs may not be the needs of the majority which is a hell of a lot more important to Apple as a company than a very small set of customers.
While I don't disagree with the majority of your points, that net needs to be cast a little wider. I think there's a chain set up, with some of the "Pros" being very vocal disproportionate to their actual market sway about what they see as essential to Apple which feeds back to analysts.
See also: 32GB of RAM (which would be nice, but there are other technical considerations), doesn't need to be thin and light (it doesn't for some, but for most of Apple's market it does), and host of other crap.
A define a "Pro" not as "someone who uses at least one Pro application," but "someone who threatens to build a hackintosh because of their technical specs envy." I mean, that seems to be the working definition some people use in these forums.
BigDann said: Which is why we need a bigger battery option. Right now we are using some external batteries when we have no choice. But they don't fit the USB-C port. I'm sure USB-C options will show up that will help but thats not now.
Which is why we need a bigger battery option. Right now we are using some external batteries when we have no choice. But they don't fit the USB-C port. I'm sure USB-C options will show up that will help but thats not now.
You've got a port that, for the first time in Apple's history, will work with ANY generic USB battery pack and car charger, using just a USB-A to USB-C cable, and this is somehow a problem?
You ought to be jumping for joy at the 2016 models! (well, at least for that aspect — the non-removable-storage argument still holds, of course)
Yes, the heavy weight Pro market is much smaller but its also the group that made Apple Apple!
Not at all. This is the group that kept Apple alive during the 90s despite not being the people Macintosh was actually initially targeted at.
The group that made Apple Apple (as in: the hugest, most massive consumer electronics company the world has ever known) are the iPod customers and subsequently Windows-switchers who bought Macs, and even more so, those on iOS — "pro" or otherwise. THEY made the vision of mobile, connected computing — Jobs' original vision from the early 80s — a ubiquitous reality.
But but...the MacBook Pro is overpriced and the dongle hell issue keeps everyone from buying them! And those iMacs...gosh, those are just so lame today!
Where are all of these people who basically said the new MacBook Pro will be a failure because of its lack of ports, you need a dongle for everything, its way too expensive? And don't give me this crap about well what if it had more ports and was cheaper, they'd sell twice as much. Thats absolute pure BS! That touch bar is just a gimmick and won't help sell the MacBook Pro.
Where are these people now? All quiet with their tail between their legs in defeat as usual. They never learn. Apple know its market a hell of a lot better than any one of us here. They see things we will never see. They have more data than we could possibly ever get. We need to stop trying to run Apple to suit our own needs. Our needs may not be the needs of the majority which is a hell of a lot more important to Apple as a company than a very small set of customers.
>>> Almost... The truth is sometimes somewhere between! The sales force market is what Apple sold to, not the real heavy-weigh creatives! Apple saw the MacBook Air & MacBook (new) is what the sales force types want in size & weight with the performance of a MacBook Pro! Thats what Apple created and it sold to as it was the bigger market. <<<
>>> If you are a real creative type or engineer the New MacBook Pro's fell short. They are the ones that have a big need in using ports and need gobs of RAM (video editing) This is the group Apple did not sell to. Apple needs to create a Pro's Pro (i'll call it the MacBook Pro-X) hitting all of the points Apple failed to address. <<<
>>> Yes! The creative & engineering users are vocal as they are in need of better gear too! <<<
>>> As an example the company I work for will be dropping 300+ MacBook Pro's and going to HP & Dell laptops. We just can't wait any more, 3 years in limbo! Our needs are ports Type A USB without dongles, removable storage (security) and long battery life. Within the next year or so I will likely loose my job because of the hardware switch. If Apple came out with the MacBook Pro-X I know the pro's would run and buy it. If it had come out in the spring our company would have bought replacements for what we have in the field and then some! And I would still a bright future supporting them all. <<<
A USB-C to USB-B cable is $6. USB-C to micro-USB-B is $5. No dongles required. If you need 300 of them, you can probably get them cheaper.
Removable storage you won't find with a drive that has the speed of the MacBook Pro SSD, and you won't find in HP or Dell's workstations. Apple's battery life is best in class. Regarding RAM, talk to Intel. Kaby Lake doesn't support 32GB of LPDDR3 RAM, and to get there with LPDDR4 is two chip generations away. Other machines that can do it use a separate controller, and you won't get MacBook Pro battery life.
The Dell i7 15-inch with 32GB of RAM, and a slower 512GB SSD? It's $2899. It has a four-hour battery life.
If this is accurate, and I have no reason to believe it's not, your management and/or ownership are full of it and just want to be rid of Macs.
These Pros screaming for 32GB of RAM and beefy Apple hardware will need to put their money where their mouth is, and do it soon. The vast majority of Apple's market has spoken whether we like it or not. These Pros? They are in the low single-digits of 10 percent of Apple's business from a dollar perspective. At best, given Apple's own numbers, 0.5 percent, at best.
Mike I'm not disagreeing with you. Apple saw a market that was underserved and it struct it and hit pay dirt! No question about that.
As for USB-B to USB-C cables. That works for printers and other devices that have removable cables. It doesn't solve the USB thumb drives and devices that don't have removable cables. Sadly we have a lot.
As far as storage theres more to it than speed it's gaining access to the data when the system craps out as well as the security of the data when the system needs to be serviced. Some of us work on stuff thats very confidential! Which is why removable internal storage is a must. Apples new SSD using in the 13" function key model appears to offer both speed & removability, so it can be done.
Our testing shows the Dell is 7~8 hours web surfing which is about the same for the MacBook Pro's using Chrome. So I'm not sure where you got 4 hours. Granted, this is not much of a load and in use. We can only get about 2hrs for either running CAD with our workloads in either. Which is why we need a bigger battery option. Right now we are using some external batteries when we have no choice. But they don't fit the USB-C port. I'm sure USB-C options will show up that will help but thats not now.
Yes, the heavy weight Pro market is much smaller but its also the group that made Apple Apple! If augmented reality (AR) is what Apple wants to get into its this group which will lead the pack. So if they can't do it with what Apple is selling were does that leave Apple?
Look at IBM with Watson this is a very expensive box and only a few 100 will be sold. Yet it will be what sets the mark in predictive analytical breakdown. I'm sure Apple has access to one or two for its AI efforts.
So big companies do see the value of small niche products that build sales indirectly. Apple needs to see the light here that this is no different! It's the development of the next big thing that it needs to nurture. Failing to do that will weaken its' importance as a leader.
As for the company I work for. They pleated directly with Apple quite a few times as they did not want to jump (they still don't want to). It was a very tough decision and was driven from the support staff not upper management. I know of one other mid-sized company that will likely do the same.
It's the small & mid-sized companies that don't have the deep pockets to rotate equipment like the bigger companies and they likewise want to squeeze out every ounce out of the gear they do buy or lease. This is the market Apple is loosing as in our case.
I disagree with you for the most part on what Apple should do for the market; your use case has "niche" written all over it, and you/your company doesn't seem to care to adapt, very fast anyway. "Pro's" are just as likely to resist change as any other computing segment; move on.
Purchase USB Type C Thumb Drive; they are readily available.
Increase your battery life by using Safari instead of Chrome, which has a notorious reputation for poor battery life on an MBP, albeit Google has greatly improved it to date.
Solve your removable storage issue by using a USB Type C mass storage device, including a TB 3 one for performance . Use a different CAD system not laden with decades of legacy code, which most are, to increase battery life. A difficult transition, but otherwise, I'm not seeing the need for Apple to figure out why your CAD software is so power inefficient. What software do use you and what for?
I am reminded of the other concern that Pro's had; 32 GB of DRAM. For the most part, I see this as a requirement that they pulled out of their asses, with no actual, nor relevant testing to determine if it was even required. But some "Pro Creatives" did test, for video workflows as an example and did find that the top end MBP did just fine, and posted benchmarks and workflow to prove it. In fact, the only relevant concern I can see that is not covered by the Intel Roadmap in the near future, is the need for a top end MBP without the Touch Bar.
Finally, wrt the Mac Pro, Apple has hinted at a new form factor, with, I'm assuming, reasonable performance levels.
I would add, If the Mac Mini dies, it is because it has outlived it's usefulness as the utility of entry level PC's diminishes.
danvm said: I agree with you that the issue with ports is overblown, but that's based in my line of work and workflow. Like I posted before, I'm looking forward to have a MBP 13", since most of the things that were removed don't affect my workflow (all but the awful keyboard). But you can't ignore when other people, in a different line of work with different needs, including professional users, are affected when USB 3.0 or the SD reader was removed from the MBP. It's clear that USB-C is far more capable and it's the future, but looks like people wasn't ready to switch to it in an instant.
What's funny to me is that the keyboard on this 2016 MacBook Pro is the best keyboard I've ever owned since the original ADB Extended Keyboard I got in 1989 (never liked the soft bottom of the ADB Extended Keyboard II that everybody raves about).
I didn't much like the 2016 MacBook keyboard when I tested it, but this thing (Pro)…sooo good.
I'll admit that it took me about a day to get used to it, though.
Maybe it's the best keyboard you have ever owned. But have you try Lenovo Thinkpad keyboards, like the T470s or the X1 Carbon? You'll see what a great keyboard is. And I don't understand the "get used to it". Macbook trackpads are excellent, and I have not heard of someone the had to get used to it. It was good, period. If the Macbook/MBP keyboards are so good, why do I have get used to it?
Because that's how our hands work?
I'm a professional keyboard player. Believe me, I'm fairly experienced when it comes to how fingers adjust to different tactile responses, amounts of travel, feedback, stiffness, bounce, and attack. Every single mechanical piano, every single different type of keyboard, takes some adjusting. I'll need a few minutes of playing just to acclimatise to each of the three pianos I have at home — an old acoustic, a 1977 Mk 1 Fender Rhodes, and a CP70 — and I've been playing those for years. Not to mention the 'boards I have in the studio, or the ones I take on the road.
What you are saying then is that there is no good or bad keyboard or track pad, since at the end, you'll be get used to it. I don't think that's right at all. As you say, you'll get used to what ever you use daily. But when there is something better, you'll notice the difference. That happened with Macbook trackpads in a positive way, and with the keyboards in a negative way.
Of course it's an "issue". But not a major one, and unless there is somebody with a piece of hardware that actually breaks due to the port switch, I'm inclined not to take too seriously the concerns of people who have the time to whine all over the internet about how they are unable to work with a USB-C port.
It's not major issue for us, but you cannot say in absolute terms that isn't an issue for some people.
But but...the MacBook Pro is overpriced and the dongle hell issue keeps everyone from buying them! And those iMacs...gosh, those are just so lame today!
Where are all of these people who basically said the new MacBook Pro will be a failure because of its lack of ports, you need a dongle for everything, its way too expensive? And don't give me this crap about well what if it had more ports and was cheaper, they'd sell twice as much. Thats absolute pure BS! That touch bar is just a gimmick and won't help sell the MacBook Pro.
Where are these people now? All quiet with their tail between their legs in defeat as usual. They never learn. Apple know its market a hell of a lot better than any one of us here. They see things we will never see. They have more data than we could possibly ever get. We need to stop trying to run Apple to suit our own needs. Our needs may not be the needs of the majority which is a hell of a lot more important to Apple as a company than a very small set of customers.
>>> Almost... The truth is sometimes somewhere between! The sales force market is what Apple sold to, not the real heavy-weigh creatives! Apple saw the MacBook Air & MacBook (new) is what the sales force types want in size & weight with the performance of a MacBook Pro! Thats what Apple created and it sold to as it was the bigger market. <<<
>>> If you are a real creative type or engineer the New MacBook Pro's fell short. They are the ones that have a big need in using ports and need gobs of RAM (video editing) This is the group Apple did not sell to. Apple needs to create a Pro's Pro (i'll call it the MacBook Pro-X) hitting all of the points Apple failed to address. <<<
>>> Yes! The creative & engineering users are vocal as they are in need of better gear too! <<<
>>> As an example the company I work for will be dropping 300+ MacBook Pro's and going to HP & Dell laptops. We just can't wait any more, 3 years in limbo! Our needs are ports Type A USB without dongles, removable storage (security) and long battery life. Within the next year or so I will likely loose my job because of the hardware switch. If Apple came out with the MacBook Pro-X I know the pro's would run and buy it. If it had come out in the spring our company would have bought replacements for what we have in the field and then some! And I would still a bright future supporting them all. <<<
A USB-C to USB-B cable is $6. USB-C to micro-USB-B is $5. No dongles required. If you need 300 of them, you can probably get them cheaper.
Removable storage you won't find with a drive that has the speed of the MacBook Pro SSD, and you won't find in HP or Dell's workstations. Apple's battery life is best in class. Regarding RAM, talk to Intel. Kaby Lake doesn't support 32GB of LPDDR3 RAM, and to get there with LPDDR4 is two chip generations away. Other machines that can do it use a separate controller, and you won't get MacBook Pro battery life.
The Dell i7 15-inch with 32GB of RAM, and a slower 512GB SSD? It's $2899. It has a four-hour battery life.
If this is accurate, and I have no reason to believe it's not, your management and/or ownership are full of it and just want to be rid of Macs.
These Pros screaming for 32GB of RAM and beefy Apple hardware will need to put their money where their mouth is, and do it soon. The vast majority of Apple's market has spoken whether we like it or not. These Pros? They are in the low single-digits of 10 percent of Apple's business from a dollar perspective. At best, given Apple's own numbers, 0.5 percent, at best.
Mike I'm not disagreeing with you. Apple saw a market that was underserved and it struct it and hit pay dirt! No question about that.
As for USB-B to USB-C cables. That works for printers and other devices that have removable cables. It doesn't solve the USB thumb drives and devices that don't have removable cables. Sadly we have a lot.
As far as storage theres more to it than speed it's gaining access to the data when the system craps out as well as the security of the data when the system needs to be serviced. Some of us work on stuff thats very confidential! Which is why removable internal storage is a must. Apples new SSD using in the 13" function key model appears to offer both speed & removability, so it can be done.
Our testing shows the Dell is 7~8 hours web surfing which is about the same for the MacBook Pro's using Chrome. So I'm not sure where you got 4 hours. Granted, this is not much of a load and in use. We can only get about 2hrs for either running CAD with our workloads in either. Which is why we need a bigger battery option. Right now we are using some external batteries when we have no choice. But they don't fit the USB-C port. I'm sure USB-C options will show up that will help but thats not now.
Yes, the heavy weight Pro market is much smaller but its also the group that made Apple Apple! If augmented reality (AR) is what Apple wants to get into its this group which will lead the pack. So if they can't do it with what Apple is selling were does that leave Apple?
Look at IBM with Watson this is a very expensive box and only a few 100 will be sold. Yet it will be what sets the mark in predictive analytical breakdown. I'm sure Apple has access to one or two for its AI efforts.
So big companies do see the value of small niche products that build sales indirectly. Apple needs to see the light here that this is no different! It's the development of the next big thing that it needs to nurture. Failing to do that will weaken its' importance as a leader.
As for the company I work for. They pleated directly with Apple quite a few times as they did not want to jump (they still don't want to). It was a very tough decision and was driven from the support staff not upper management. I know of one other mid-sized company that will likely do the same.
It's the small & mid-sized companies that don't have the deep pockets to rotate equipment like the bigger companies and they likewise want to squeeze out every ounce out of the gear they do buy or lease. This is the market Apple is loosing as in our case.
I disagree with you for the most part on what Apple should do for the market; your use case has "niche" written all over it, and you/your company doesn't seem to care to adapt, very fast anyway. "Pro's" are just as likely to resist change as any other computing segment; move on.
You blame the company because they don't want to adapt, but have you consider that what Apple offered didn't match their needs, while HP and Dell (which have great devices) did?
Purchase USB Type C Thumb Drive; they are readily available.
Increase your battery life by using Safari instead of Chrome, which has a notorious reputation for poor battery life on an MBP, albeit Google has greatly improved it to date.
Solve your removable storage issue by using a USB Type C mass storage device, including a TB 3 one for performance . Use a different CAD system not laden with decades of legacy code, which most are, to increase battery life. A difficult transition, but otherwise, I'm not seeing the need for Apple to figure out why your CAD software is so power inefficient. What software do use you and what for?
You suggest to replace all of their USB drives, stop using Chrome and change their CAD system just to stay with Mac. That wouldn't have been an issue if MBP had USB 3.0 ports and had a 32GB/64GB. Apple went to remove the ports, and in this case, the customer decided to move away from them. So it looks like the negative feedback you saw in internet involved some real customers.
And how do you know if their CAD software is power inefficient? Could it be that the type of work require a lot of CPU/GPU, draining the battery more quickly?
I am reminded of the other concern that Pro's had; 32 GB of DRAM. For the most part, I see this as a requirement that they pulled out of their asses, with no actual, nor relevant testing to determine if it was even required. But some "Pro Creatives" did test, for video workflows as an example and did find that the top end MBP did just fine, and posted benchmarks and workflow to prove it. In fact, the only relevant concern I can see that is not covered by the Intel Roadmap in the near future, is the need for a top end MBP without the Touch Bar.
Pro Creatives are only one of a long list of professional who will benefit of having more than 16GB or RAM. As an example, architects and engineers working in huge CAD drawings, even in 3D.
Finally, wrt the Mac Pro, Apple has hinted at a new form factor, with, I'm assuming, reasonable performance levels.
I would add, If the Mac Mini dies, it is because it has outlived it's usefulness as the utility of entry level PC's diminishes.
Apple completely failed with the Mac Pro and Mac Mini, even though they were good devices for their time. You mention how the Mac Mini died because of it outlived their usefulness. That's the opposite of HP, that had the vision of creating a workstation in a size similar to the Mac Mini. Why Apple didn't though of that?
But but...the MacBook Pro is overpriced and the dongle hell issue keeps everyone from buying them! And those iMacs...gosh, those are just so lame today!
Where are all of these people who basically said the new MacBook Pro will be a failure because of its lack of ports, you need a dongle for everything, its way too expensive? And don't give me this crap about well what if it had more ports and was cheaper, they'd sell twice as much. Thats absolute pure BS! That touch bar is just a gimmick and won't help sell the MacBook Pro.
Where are these people now? All quiet with their tail between their legs in defeat as usual. They never learn. Apple know its market a hell of a lot better than any one of us here. They see things we will never see. They have more data than we could possibly ever get. We need to stop trying to run Apple to suit our own needs. Our needs may not be the needs of the majority which is a hell of a lot more important to Apple as a company than a very small set of customers.
>>> Almost... The truth is sometimes somewhere between! The sales force market is what Apple sold to, not the real heavy-weigh creatives! Apple saw the MacBook Air & MacBook (new) is what the sales force types want in size & weight with the performance of a MacBook Pro! Thats what Apple created and it sold to as it was the bigger market. <<<
>>> If you are a real creative type or engineer the New MacBook Pro's fell short. They are the ones that have a big need in using ports and need gobs of RAM (video editing) This is the group Apple did not sell to. Apple needs to create a Pro's Pro (i'll call it the MacBook Pro-X) hitting all of the points Apple failed to address. <<<
>>> Yes! The creative & engineering users are vocal as they are in need of better gear too! <<<
>>> As an example the company I work for will be dropping 300+ MacBook Pro's and going to HP & Dell laptops. We just can't wait any more, 3 years in limbo! Our needs are ports Type A USB without dongles, removable storage (security) and long battery life. Within the next year or so I will likely loose my job because of the hardware switch. If Apple came out with the MacBook Pro-X I know the pro's would run and buy it. If it had come out in the spring our company would have bought replacements for what we have in the field and then some! And I would still a bright future supporting them all. <<<
A USB-C to USB-B cable is $6. USB-C to micro-USB-B is $5. No dongles required. If you need 300 of them, you can probably get them cheaper.
Removable storage you won't find with a drive that has the speed of the MacBook Pro SSD, and you won't find in HP or Dell's workstations. Apple's battery life is best in class. Regarding RAM, talk to Intel. Kaby Lake doesn't support 32GB of LPDDR3 RAM, and to get there with LPDDR4 is two chip generations away. Other machines that can do it use a separate controller, and you won't get MacBook Pro battery life.
The Dell i7 15-inch with 32GB of RAM, and a slower 512GB SSD? It's $2899. It has a four-hour battery life.
If this is accurate, and I have no reason to believe it's not, your management and/or ownership are full of it and just want to be rid of Macs.
These Pros screaming for 32GB of RAM and beefy Apple hardware will need to put their money where their mouth is, and do it soon. The vast majority of Apple's market has spoken whether we like it or not. These Pros? They are in the low single-digits of 10 percent of Apple's business from a dollar perspective. At best, given Apple's own numbers, 0.5 percent, at best.
Mike I'm not disagreeing with you. Apple saw a market that was underserved and it struct it and hit pay dirt! No question about that.
As for USB-B to USB-C cables. That works for printers and other devices that have removable cables. It doesn't solve the USB thumb drives and devices that don't have removable cables. Sadly we have a lot.
As far as storage theres more to it than speed it's gaining access to the data when the system craps out as well as the security of the data when the system needs to be serviced. Some of us work on stuff thats very confidential! Which is why removable internal storage is a must. Apples new SSD using in the 13" function key model appears to offer both speed & removability, so it can be done.
Our testing shows the Dell is 7~8 hours web surfing which is about the same for the MacBook Pro's using Chrome. So I'm not sure where you got 4 hours. Granted, this is not much of a load and in use. We can only get about 2hrs for either running CAD with our workloads in either. Which is why we need a bigger battery option. Right now we are using some external batteries when we have no choice. But they don't fit the USB-C port. I'm sure USB-C options will show up that will help but thats not now.
Yes, the heavy weight Pro market is much smaller but its also the group that made Apple Apple! If augmented reality (AR) is what Apple wants to get into its this group which will lead the pack. So if they can't do it with what Apple is selling were does that leave Apple?
Look at IBM with Watson this is a very expensive box and only a few 100 will be sold. Yet it will be what sets the mark in predictive analytical breakdown. I'm sure Apple has access to one or two for its AI efforts.
So big companies do see the value of small niche products that build sales indirectly. Apple needs to see the light here that this is no different! It's the development of the next big thing that it needs to nurture. Failing to do that will weaken its' importance as a leader.
As for the company I work for. They pleated directly with Apple quite a few times as they did not want to jump (they still don't want to). It was a very tough decision and was driven from the support staff not upper management. I know of one other mid-sized company that will likely do the same.
It's the small & mid-sized companies that don't have the deep pockets to rotate equipment like the bigger companies and they likewise want to squeeze out every ounce out of the gear they do buy or lease. This is the market Apple is loosing as in our case.
I disagree with you for the most part on what Apple should do for the market; your use case has "niche" written all over it, and you/your company doesn't seem to care to adapt, very fast anyway. "Pro's" are just as likely to resist change as any other computing segment; move on.
You blame the company because they don't want to adapt, but have you consider that what Apple offered didn't match their needs, while HP and Dell (which have great devices) did?
Purchase USB Type C Thumb Drive; they are readily available.
Increase your battery life by using Safari instead of Chrome, which has a notorious reputation for poor battery life on an MBP, albeit Google has greatly improved it to date.
Solve your removable storage issue by using a USB Type C mass storage device, including a TB 3 one for performance . Use a different CAD system not laden with decades of legacy code, which most are, to increase battery life. A difficult transition, but otherwise, I'm not seeing the need for Apple to figure out why your CAD software is so power inefficient. What software do use you and what for?
You suggest to replace all of their USB drives, stop using Chrome and change their CAD system just to stay with Mac. That wouldn't have been an issue if MBP had USB 3.0 ports and had a 32GB/64GB. Apple went to remove the ports, and in this case, the customer decided to move away from them. So it looks like the negative feedback you saw in internet involved some real customers.
And how do you know if their CAD software is power inefficient? Could it be that the type of work require a lot of CPU/GPU, draining the battery more quickly?
I am reminded of the other concern that Pro's had; 32 GB of DRAM. For the most part, I see this as a requirement that they pulled out of their asses, with no actual, nor relevant testing to determine if it was even required. But some "Pro Creatives" did test, for video workflows as an example and did find that the top end MBP did just fine, and posted benchmarks and workflow to prove it. In fact, the only relevant concern I can see that is not covered by the Intel Roadmap in the near future, is the need for a top end MBP without the Touch Bar.
Pro Creatives are only one of a long list of professional who will benefit of having more than 16GB or RAM. As an example, architects and engineers working in huge CAD drawings, even in 3D.
Finally, wrt the Mac Pro, Apple has hinted at a new form factor, with, I'm assuming, reasonable performance levels.
I would add, If the Mac Mini dies, it is because it has outlived it's usefulness as the utility of entry level PC's diminishes.
Apple completely failed with the Mac Pro and Mac Mini, even though they were good devices for their time. You mention how the Mac Mini died because of it outlived their usefulness. That's the opposite of HP, that had the vision of creating a workstation in a size similar to the Mac Mini. Why Apple didn't though of that?
I proposed some minimalist purchases and various practices that would at low cost, easily mitigate most of the posters requirements. Sorry, but his use case was niche, and your arguing that Apple needs to provide niche products is not supported by your arguments. As I well recall, you are a big fan of Surface Products, and to date, those products leave out TB and as well, don't provide 32 GB either, and have more limited battery life in the same workflows that the MBP. MS doesn't build portable workstations either.
I use CAD, Solidworks and Inventor, program machine tools, and in almost all use cases, barring heavy simulation, there isn't a requirement for anywhere near 16 GB. As I stated, Apple is waiting for Intel, likely the Cannon Lake processor family, for implementation into a future MBP, the user of which will get 32 GB with continued good battery life, all in a widely marketed package.
Still, one has to look at any application that only gets two hours of life out of a laptop as an aberration; a portable workstation might get double that at most. You would still need an external battery/power supply in that use case.
If you don't like Apple's product line, if you believe that the next Mac Pro will be a market failure, then buy your favored Dell or HP products, but you still haven't made a case for Apple building a portable workstation, which is what your are asking for, for a very niche market. That's why I pointed out how well Apple profits are growing in the market; they won't build stuff that is unprofitable.
BigDann said: Which is why we need a bigger battery option. Right now we are using some external batteries when we have no choice. But they don't fit the USB-C port. I'm sure USB-C options will show up that will help but thats not now.
Which is why we need a bigger battery option. Right now we are using some external batteries when we have no choice. But they don't fit the USB-C port. I'm sure USB-C options will show up that will help but thats not now.
You've got a port that, for the first time in Apple's history, will work with ANY generic USB battery pack and car charger, using just a USB-A to USB-C cable, and this is somehow a problem?
You ought to be jumping for joy at the 2016 models! (well, at least for that aspect — the non-removable-storage argument still holds, of course)
Yes, the heavy weight Pro market is much smaller but its also the group that made Apple Apple!
Not at all. This is the group that kept Apple alive during the 90s despite not being the people Macintosh was actually initially targeted at.
The group that made Apple Apple (as in: the hugest, most massive consumer electronics company the world has ever known) are the iPod customers and subsequently Windows-switchers who bought Macs, and even more so, those on iOS — "pro" or otherwise. THEY made the vision of mobile, connected computing — Jobs' original vision from the early 80s — a ubiquitous reality.
Yes, USB-C is one step forward, yet one step back the lack of a quick release system (MagSafe) is still a bit of a downer. There is also another nasty looming out there! Junk cloned USB-C chargers! If you visit Louis Rossmann's https://www.youtube.com/user/rossmanngroup/videos YouTube channel. He had two new MacBooks zapped by a cheap USB-C knockoff.
I agree at the time heavy weight Pro market was a bigger group in scale than what the rest of what Apple sells to today. Alas, its become smaller market. The group is still much larger than what Razer Computer sells to in the gaming space! So its still a profitable venture if done right. I think Tim & Company are being swayed by the value of Apples stock and the shareholders (greed).
Huzzah. Most curious to hear how the haters and critics spin these facts to fit their narrative...
I was amused to see how the haters on MR spun the increase in ipad sales — “This is just the cheap new ipad padding the numbers!” first time i’d heard of anyone criticizing Apple for offering cheap ipads! what will they complain about next?!!
Avon will chime in that he provided no hard breakdown by units so it must just be spin and the new MBP sales in actuality sucked and all the sales the legacy MBP.
I could chime in with a lot of things. Let's start with some hard facts as some comments seem to based on things that weren't made the way they are portrayed.
After the disastrous Christmas episode which saw little of the Mac line updated, Apple reported earnings and claimed that most sales were to first time Mac buyers. In spite of pent up demand from Mac users, are we to understand that the majority of those existing mac users didn't actually bite even after the long wait? Those earnings could have been the worst Mac figures for a Christmas season in a very, very long time. Are we to believe that Windows switchers and computer newbies saved Apple's Christmas bacon?
Basically, the only new Macs were the MacBook Pros with USB-C TB. In spite of most of the then current Mac line not having USB-C, the fervent ones quickly proclaimed anything non-USB C as 'legacy'. A strange claim when Apple, at that very time, was offering those same 'legacy' ports on, ehem, 'new' machines (although in reality they were basically the same ones that had on sale the previous Christmas - 2015). No wonder many Mac users passed on those machines during the Christmas 2016 period. But did they jump on the new models instead? It seems not if the majority of buyers were new to the Mac. But of course, we can't know because Apple doesn't provide that info.
Months passed and finally we got the new, looooong awaited iMacs. Hooray! And they were half decent upgrades to boot. Double hooray! But, no doubt to the dismay of the fervent ones, they came with lots of legacy ports on them! Without doubt that put them in a bit of a predicament. Legacy wasn't legacy after all! Apple just did what most sane people expected from the outset. They added USB-C TB to the existing line. 'Pure Genius!' some might say, although the correct phrase would be better left at 'Elementary, dear Watson'.
So what happened? Ah, my twisted theory is that while Jony Ive was busy designing his Christmas tree, someone at Apple decided to to do the right thing and transition to USB-C and got the new iMacs approved without making them even thinner! Of course it would also be logical to conclude that if those ports weren't legacy at all, then the MBP could have received a similar upgrade. A true transition in the true sense of the word. After all, at the time, the world wasn't exactly awash with devices that could take advantage of the ports. The world was awash (and still is!) with your standard slow speed gear which users had, and still have. Something that went completely over the heads of many people was that the ports themselves weren't even the issue. No one is or was anti-USB-C TB. That just wasn't the case. Never was.
The fervent ones defended the new MBPs as best they could but many became obsessed with the dongle situation (probably hurt by Apple becoming an internet laughing stock at the time) but lost track of the fact that ports were not the only quibble. Price was another. And there were many others too.
Some people weren't convinced by the processor situation and doubted about putting so much money into a new machine because they feared a revision in a few months might make their investment a bad one. People tried to allay those fears by saying a processor change would only bring marginal improvements so it was a non-issue bla, bla, bla.
Apple duly updated those Macs and surprise, surprise, the performance improvement was actually rather noticeable. Ouch! But not to worry, those who invested in the previous iteration were good for years as Macs last so long! And look how thin they are! You can almost touch the glue through that silent ;-) keyboard! Personally, being long in the tooth, I would look more closely at what Kabylake offered and see that if h.265 was important for you, then putting the purchase back might make more sense. It all depended on how long Apple would take to upgrade the machines, which in the end was no time at all. Is that a double ouch!? Perhaps, somewhat strange given the massive success of the line! Why fiddle with the line if it was blazing a trail of glory? And they brought the baseline price down too. Something Apple is famed for when it has a roaring success on its hands. Not!
People talk about 'whiners' (it's so easy to label people) but those same people are seemingly incapable of actually listening to what is being said. The reasons put on the table etc.
I'm convinced that, as a result of people's geniune opinions, Apple has responded favourably on several fronts. They admitted to the press (yes, the press, no less!) that the 'innovative' Mac Pro design had backed them into a corner. They promised to fix that. This was a totally unprecedented move by Apple but it didn't stop there. At the introduction of the new iMacs, they even provided some details on a new breed of iMac which would be released at a much later date. I wonder why these things ever happened? There was no real need for it. Surely it wasn't due to the whiners! Heaven forbid. This isn't the same as with the HomePod. With that, Apple is late to the game and needed to put the product on the radar. A wise move, especially after hinting that such a device wasn't really necessary.
So here we are in the run up to the end of the year and we will possibly have those legacy ports into 2018. Who would have thought that by reading comments here from 2016?
After all the fuss about the new MBPs, and Phil Schiller desperately trying to douse the flames by actually coming out and publicly saying how great sales of the new machines were, even though he only had a few days sales data to go on (yes, the devil is in the details, as always), just made a rod for his own back. He really should have followed up on those comments. He didn't.
Apple's refusal to break figures down is nothing new but they could have easily made a small exception for the new MBP given the furor around them. 'Slim chance of that' you might say, but would it be slimmer than Apple calling a meeting with tech journalists to tell the world how wrong they got it with the Mac Pro? Slimmer than them announcing a major new product line months in advance?
So. Sales. I have yet to see a new MBP outside an AppleStore. That isn't normal so long after release. I don't live under a rock and I travel a lot. It might not mean much but, for me, it remains very unusual.
Are the MBPs flying off the shelves? I very much doubt it. The processor upgrade, a far better iMac line and a reduction in the entry level price of the MBP probably helped out across the board, but as I've said before and so many times, sales are only part of the picture. The sales you don't get are equally important and knowing why you don't get them is key.
Luca said: "Thanks to great performance from the new MacBook Pro we generated 7 percent revenue growth over last year".
Is that growth in MBP revenue, or is it the 7% growth across the board that is mentioned in the opener?
It seems like a very vague, almost empty statement to make, and 7% is giving a new definition to 'great' in my book. And if we're talking MBP growth over the same period last year, perhaps it would have been better not to say anything. Or perhaps I'm just not seeing something that is so evident it becomes invisible. To be absolutely honest I haven't perused anything in these last calls.
I vote with my money. I don't like the new MBPs for a host of reasons and will not buy one today. My opinion hasn't changed in the slightest since they were released.
People say 'you're not Apple's target' which is fine - to a point - but given what has happened since last November it might be better to reserve those 'absolute' claims for a little longer in an attempt to avoid egg on one's face because many of things people have said since last November, that would never happen, actually have!
There are signs of very slight change at Apple. Perhaps they are inching out of the 'only premium' corner some say they backed themselves into over the last few years.
The MBA refuses to die. People were saying it was EOL no sooner had the new MBs and MBPs arrived. That was 2016. It might now stay around until 2018, I don't know. What I do know is that those people who said it was dead, were simply wrong. The fact that it got an update (albeit minuscule) said a lot.
The 'low end' could very well be saving the day. We can't know but the entry level price reduction on the MBP wasn't necessary, right? Such was the popularity of the range, even with the eye watering price tags.
People said Apple doesn't make things 'fatter' and if you don't like thin, 'Apple isn't for you'. They forget that even the iPhone has got fatter in the past. They don't want to see that the iPad got fatter. People say 'premium' is all Apple does and forget that the new entry level iPad was designed (and priced) for the non-premium market. They forget that the iPhone 6 is receiving a major marketing push right now at affordable prices. As mentioned, the Air refuses to die. This all goes against the grain of the people who throw absolutes around. Apple is definitely realising that they cannot keep going as a premium only brand. It has most of its eggs in the iPhone basket and when the bottom falls out of that basket things won't be nice for them on Wall Street, or anywhere.
Am I wrong to say 'when' instead of 'if' here? Only an utter fool would say (today) that Apple can replicate the same success of the last 8 years in the coming 8 years. They absolutely have to reduce dependency on the 'premium' iPhone as the competition has pulled up its socks and China remains flat and with no signs of changing. Isn't that what Time Cook himself said?
We are still missing the large screen affordable iPhone and the Mini, and in the absence of some kind of AR headset/glasses I think the iPad would actually be well suited for something like AR, especially the iPad Mini (as strange as that might sound seeing as so many think it is already dead).
In conclusion, did sales of the new MBP sky rocket after launch? No (if they had, Schiller would have had tweet orgasm over it). Has the price reduction and Kabylake upgrade kept MBP momentum going? Probably. Has the iMac refresh helped? Of course. Have the iPhone 7/7+ been the real backbone of this quarter? That's clear. Are people holding off iPhone purchases until the September/October announcements? That's also clear. Will we see slight improvements and price adjustments to the iMac/MBP/MB for the Christmas season. I hope so.
So to sum up, yeah, you were right, LOL. Apple still hasn't put any real numbers on the table (understandably or not) but there is nothing there to say the new MBP has been a massive seller and I do actually believe they could sell a lot more than they currently do.
This is my opinion of course and as I'm just not interested in the current MBP for so many reasons, I haven't bothered to fact check everything. I'm speaking from memory but I'm sure you'll correct me if there is something factually incorrect. LOL.
But but...the MacBook Pro is overpriced and the dongle hell issue keeps everyone from buying them! And those iMacs...gosh, those are just so lame today!
Where are all of these people who basically said the new MacBook Pro will be a failure because of its lack of ports, you need a dongle for everything, its way too expensive? And don't give me this crap about well what if it had more ports and was cheaper, they'd sell twice as much. Thats absolute pure BS! That touch bar is just a gimmick and won't help sell the MacBook Pro.
Where are these people now? All quiet with their tail between their legs in defeat as usual. They never learn. Apple know its market a hell of a lot better than any one of us here. They see things we will never see. They have more data than we could possibly ever get. We need to stop trying to run Apple to suit our own needs. Our needs may not be the needs of the majority which is a hell of a lot more important to Apple as a company than a very small set of customers.
>>> Almost... The truth is sometimes somewhere between! The sales force market is what Apple sold to, not the real heavy-weigh creatives! Apple saw the MacBook Air & MacBook (new) is what the sales force types want in size & weight with the performance of a MacBook Pro! Thats what Apple created and it sold to as it was the bigger market. <<<
>>> If you are a real creative type or engineer the New MacBook Pro's fell short. They are the ones that have a big need in using ports and need gobs of RAM (video editing) This is the group Apple did not sell to. Apple needs to create a Pro's Pro (i'll call it the MacBook Pro-X) hitting all of the points Apple failed to address. <<<
>>> Yes! The creative & engineering users are vocal as they are in need of better gear too! <<<
>>> As an example the company I work for will be dropping 300+ MacBook Pro's and going to HP & Dell laptops. We just can't wait any more, 3 years in limbo! Our needs are ports Type A USB without dongles, removable storage (security) and long battery life. Within the next year or so I will likely loose my job because of the hardware switch. If Apple came out with the MacBook Pro-X I know the pro's would run and buy it. If it had come out in the spring our company would have bought replacements for what we have in the field and then some! And I would still a bright future supporting them all. <<<
A USB-C to USB-B cable is $6. USB-C to micro-USB-B is $5. No dongles required. If you need 300 of them, you can probably get them cheaper.
Removable storage you won't find with a drive that has the speed of the MacBook Pro SSD, and you won't find in HP or Dell's workstations. Apple's battery life is best in class. Regarding RAM, talk to Intel. Kaby Lake doesn't support 32GB of LPDDR3 RAM, and to get there with LPDDR4 is two chip generations away. Other machines that can do it use a separate controller, and you won't get MacBook Pro battery life.
The Dell i7 15-inch with 32GB of RAM, and a slower 512GB SSD? It's $2899. It has a four-hour battery life.
If this is accurate, and I have no reason to believe it's not, your management and/or ownership are full of it and just want to be rid of Macs.
These Pros screaming for 32GB of RAM and beefy Apple hardware will need to put their money where their mouth is, and do it soon. The vast majority of Apple's market has spoken whether we like it or not. These Pros? They are in the low single-digits of 10 percent of Apple's business from a dollar perspective. At best, given Apple's own numbers, 0.5 percent, at best.
Mike I'm not disagreeing with you. Apple saw a market that was underserved and it struct it and hit pay dirt! No question about that.
As for USB-B to USB-C cables. That works for printers and other devices that have removable cables. It doesn't solve the USB thumb drives and devices that don't have removable cables. Sadly we have a lot.
As far as storage theres more to it than speed it's gaining access to the data when the system craps out as well as the security of the data when the system needs to be serviced. Some of us work on stuff thats very confidential! Which is why removable internal storage is a must. Apples new SSD using in the 13" function key model appears to offer both speed & removability, so it can be done.
Our testing shows the Dell is 7~8 hours web surfing which is about the same for the MacBook Pro's using Chrome. So I'm not sure where you got 4 hours. Granted, this is not much of a load and in use. We can only get about 2hrs for either running CAD with our workloads in either. Which is why we need a bigger battery option. Right now we are using some external batteries when we have no choice. But they don't fit the USB-C port. I'm sure USB-C options will show up that will help but thats not now.
Yes, the heavy weight Pro market is much smaller but its also the group that made Apple Apple! If augmented reality (AR) is what Apple wants to get into its this group which will lead the pack. So if they can't do it with what Apple is selling were does that leave Apple?
Look at IBM with Watson this is a very expensive box and only a few 100 will be sold. Yet it will be what sets the mark in predictive analytical breakdown. I'm sure Apple has access to one or two for its AI efforts.
So big companies do see the value of small niche products that build sales indirectly. Apple needs to see the light here that this is no different! It's the development of the next big thing that it needs to nurture. Failing to do that will weaken its' importance as a leader.
As for the company I work for. They pleated directly with Apple quite a few times as they did not want to jump (they still don't want to). It was a very tough decision and was driven from the support staff not upper management. I know of one other mid-sized company that will likely do the same.
It's the small & mid-sized companies that don't have the deep pockets to rotate equipment like the bigger companies and they likewise want to squeeze out every ounce out of the gear they do buy or lease. This is the market Apple is loosing as in our case.
I disagree with you for the most part on what Apple should do for the market; your use case has "niche" written all over it, and you/your company doesn't seem to care to adapt, very fast anyway. "Pro's" are just as likely to resist change as any other computing segment; move on.
Purchase USB Type C Thumb Drive; they are readily available.
Increase your battery life by using Safari instead of Chrome, which has a notorious reputation for poor battery life on an MBP, albeit Google has greatly improved it to date.
Solve your removable storage issue by using a USB Type C mass storage device, including a TB 3 one for performance . Use a different CAD system not laden with decades of legacy code, which most are, to increase battery life. A difficult transition, but otherwise, I'm not seeing the need for Apple to figure out why your CAD software is so power inefficient. What software do use you and what for?
I am reminded of the other concern that Pro's had; 32 GB of DRAM. For the most part, I see this as a requirement that they pulled out of their asses, with no actual, nor relevant testing to determine if it was even required. But some "Pro Creatives" did test, for video workflows as an example and did find that the top end MBP did just fine, and posted benchmarks and workflow to prove it. In fact, the only relevant concern I can see that is not covered by the Intel Roadmap in the near future, is the need for a top end MBP without the Touch Bar.
Finally, wrt the Mac Pro, Apple has hinted at a new form factor, with, I'm assuming, reasonable performance levels.
I would add, If the Mac Mini dies, it is because it has outlived it's usefulness as the utility of entry level PC's diminishes.
Sorry Guy we don't throw out the baby with the bathwater!
You have no idea the scale of change you are talking about here! You also don't follow we are on the cutting edge! We need more horse power as we are doing more and in most cases we are using the best software available.
You have this idea there are options in software there are none! We are using the best thats available.
A good 25% of the time we are hitting the 16GB RAM wall so 32GB would improve things for us, Some of the tools we use work better with more RAM.
BigDann said: Which is why we need a bigger battery option. Right now we are using some external batteries when we have no choice. But they don't fit the USB-C port. I'm sure USB-C options will show up that will help but thats not now.
Which is why we need a bigger battery option. Right now we are using some external batteries when we have no choice. But they don't fit the USB-C port. I'm sure USB-C options will show up that will help but thats not now.
You've got a port that, for the first time in Apple's history, will work with ANY generic USB battery pack and car charger, using just a USB-A to USB-C cable, and this is somehow a problem?
You ought to be jumping for joy at the 2016 models! (well, at least for that aspect — the non-removable-storage argument still holds, of course)
Yes, the heavy weight Pro market is much smaller but its also the group that made Apple Apple!
Not at all. This is the group that kept Apple alive during the 90s despite not being the people Macintosh was actually initially targeted at.
The group that made Apple Apple (as in: the hugest, most massive consumer electronics company the world has ever known) are the iPod customers and subsequently Windows-switchers who bought Macs, and even more so, those on iOS — "pro" or otherwise. THEY made the vision of mobile, connected computing — Jobs' original vision from the early 80s — a ubiquitous reality.
Yes, USB-C is one step forward, yet one step back the lack of a quick release system (MagSafe) is still a bit of a downer. There is also another nasty looming out there! Junk cloned USB-C chargers! If you visit Louis Rossmannhttps://www.youtube.com/user/rossmanngroup/videos YouTube channel. He had two new MacBooks zapped by a cheap knockoff.
At the time heavy weight Pro market was a bigger group in scale than what the rest of what Apple sells to today. Alas, its become smaller market. The group is still much larger than what Razer Computer sells to in the gaming space! So its still a profitable venture if done right. I think Tim & Company are being swayed by the value of Apples stock and the shareholders (greed).
There are Magsafe equivalent adaptors available today, and many more instances probably in the future, all from third parties. That there are issues with third party chargers is well known, so I'm not even sure why you brought it up; maybe just to poison the well.
You imply that the market 20 years ago means something today, it doesn't, and that the Pro market isn't, for the most part, well served by the MBP, which it is. Once you get to workstation requirements, for AR development as an example, then Apple has an iMac Pro on the way, and a bundled development system using the current iMac and a TB Graphics.
But the actual market for a MBP Workstation is too small a niche for Apple to be interested, at least at this time. As thermal requirements are reduced for laptops, while at the same time providing increased performance, you will still less and less requirement for a portable workstation. It will morph to a more capable MBP over time.
But but...the MacBook Pro is overpriced and the dongle hell issue keeps everyone from buying them! And those iMacs...gosh, those are just so lame today!
Where are all of these people who basically said the new MacBook Pro will be a failure because of its lack of ports, you need a dongle for everything, its way too expensive? And don't give me this crap about well what if it had more ports and was cheaper, they'd sell twice as much. Thats absolute pure BS! That touch bar is just a gimmick and won't help sell the MacBook Pro.
Where are these people now? All quiet with their tail between their legs in defeat as usual. They never learn. Apple know its market a hell of a lot better than any one of us here. They see things we will never see. They have more data than we could possibly ever get. We need to stop trying to run Apple to suit our own needs. Our needs may not be the needs of the majority which is a hell of a lot more important to Apple as a company than a very small set of customers.
>>> Almost... The truth is sometimes somewhere between! The sales force market is what Apple sold to, not the real heavy-weigh creatives! Apple saw the MacBook Air & MacBook (new) is what the sales force types want in size & weight with the performance of a MacBook Pro! Thats what Apple created and it sold to as it was the bigger market. <<<
>>> If you are a real creative type or engineer the New MacBook Pro's fell short. They are the ones that have a big need in using ports and need gobs of RAM (video editing) This is the group Apple did not sell to. Apple needs to create a Pro's Pro (i'll call it the MacBook Pro-X) hitting all of the points Apple failed to address. <<<
>>> Yes! The creative & engineering users are vocal as they are in need of better gear too! <<<
>>> As an example the company I work for will be dropping 300+ MacBook Pro's and going to HP & Dell laptops. We just can't wait any more, 3 years in limbo! Our needs are ports Type A USB without dongles, removable storage (security) and long battery life. Within the next year or so I will likely loose my job because of the hardware switch. If Apple came out with the MacBook Pro-X I know the pro's would run and buy it. If it had come out in the spring our company would have bought replacements for what we have in the field and then some! And I would still a bright future supporting them all. <<<
A USB-C to USB-B cable is $6. USB-C to micro-USB-B is $5. No dongles required. If you need 300 of them, you can probably get them cheaper.
Removable storage you won't find with a drive that has the speed of the MacBook Pro SSD, and you won't find in HP or Dell's workstations. Apple's battery life is best in class. Regarding RAM, talk to Intel. Kaby Lake doesn't support 32GB of LPDDR3 RAM, and to get there with LPDDR4 is two chip generations away. Other machines that can do it use a separate controller, and you won't get MacBook Pro battery life.
The Dell i7 15-inch with 32GB of RAM, and a slower 512GB SSD? It's $2899. It has a four-hour battery life.
If this is accurate, and I have no reason to believe it's not, your management and/or ownership are full of it and just want to be rid of Macs.
These Pros screaming for 32GB of RAM and beefy Apple hardware will need to put their money where their mouth is, and do it soon. The vast majority of Apple's market has spoken whether we like it or not. These Pros? They are in the low single-digits of 10 percent of Apple's business from a dollar perspective. At best, given Apple's own numbers, 0.5 percent, at best.
Mike I'm not disagreeing with you. Apple saw a market that was underserved and it struct it and hit pay dirt! No question about that.
As for USB-B to USB-C cables. That works for printers and other devices that have removable cables. It doesn't solve the USB thumb drives and devices that don't have removable cables. Sadly we have a lot.
As far as storage theres more to it than speed it's gaining access to the data when the system craps out as well as the security of the data when the system needs to be serviced. Some of us work on stuff thats very confidential! Which is why removable internal storage is a must. Apples new SSD using in the 13" function key model appears to offer both speed & removability, so it can be done.
Our testing shows the Dell is 7~8 hours web surfing which is about the same for the MacBook Pro's using Chrome. So I'm not sure where you got 4 hours. Granted, this is not much of a load and in use. We can only get about 2hrs for either running CAD with our workloads in either. Which is why we need a bigger battery option. Right now we are using some external batteries when we have no choice. But they don't fit the USB-C port. I'm sure USB-C options will show up that will help but thats not now.
Yes, the heavy weight Pro market is much smaller but its also the group that made Apple Apple! If augmented reality (AR) is what Apple wants to get into its this group which will lead the pack. So if they can't do it with what Apple is selling were does that leave Apple?
Look at IBM with Watson this is a very expensive box and only a few 100 will be sold. Yet it will be what sets the mark in predictive analytical breakdown. I'm sure Apple has access to one or two for its AI efforts.
So big companies do see the value of small niche products that build sales indirectly. Apple needs to see the light here that this is no different! It's the development of the next big thing that it needs to nurture. Failing to do that will weaken its' importance as a leader.
As for the company I work for. They pleated directly with Apple quite a few times as they did not want to jump (they still don't want to). It was a very tough decision and was driven from the support staff not upper management. I know of one other mid-sized company that will likely do the same.
It's the small & mid-sized companies that don't have the deep pockets to rotate equipment like the bigger companies and they likewise want to squeeze out every ounce out of the gear they do buy or lease. This is the market Apple is loosing as in our case.
I disagree with you for the most part on what Apple should do for the market; your use case has "niche" written all over it, and you/your company doesn't seem to care to adapt, very fast anyway. "Pro's" are just as likely to resist change as any other computing segment; move on.
Purchase USB Type C Thumb Drive; they are readily available.
Increase your battery life by using Safari instead of Chrome, which has a notorious reputation for poor battery life on an MBP, albeit Google has greatly improved it to date.
Solve your removable storage issue by using a USB Type C mass storage device, including a TB 3 one for performance . Use a different CAD system not laden with decades of legacy code, which most are, to increase battery life. A difficult transition, but otherwise, I'm not seeing the need for Apple to figure out why your CAD software is so power inefficient. What software do use you and what for?
I am reminded of the other concern that Pro's had; 32 GB of DRAM. For the most part, I see this as a requirement that they pulled out of their asses, with no actual, nor relevant testing to determine if it was even required. But some "Pro Creatives" did test, for video workflows as an example and did find that the top end MBP did just fine, and posted benchmarks and workflow to prove it. In fact, the only relevant concern I can see that is not covered by the Intel Roadmap in the near future, is the need for a top end MBP without the Touch Bar.
Finally, wrt the Mac Pro, Apple has hinted at a new form factor, with, I'm assuming, reasonable performance levels.
I would add, If the Mac Mini dies, it is because it has outlived it's usefulness as the utility of entry level PC's diminishes.
Sorry Guy we don't throw out the baby with the bathwater!
You have no idea the scale of change you are talking about here! You also don't follow we are on the cutting edge! We need more horse power as we are doing more and in most cases we are using the best software available.
You have this idea there are options in software there are none! We are using the best thats available.
A good 25% of the time we are hitting the 16GB RAM wall so 32GB would improve things for us, Some of the tools we use work better with more RAM.
You continue making a very, very vague case for an MBP workstation. I continue to be unimpressed by your "requirements", how ever much you believe they are required. I've yet to even understand your need for mobility; i.e., a laptop at all. You know the roadmap for Apple's MBP is driven by Intel, the capabilities of the iMac and iMac Pro, and the teased Mac Pro next year. If today any combination of those won't meet your current or future needs, then you and your company really need to move on.
Your story comes across as very vague, but whatever, I've had enough of this.
You suggest to replace all of their USB drives, stop using Chrome and change their CAD system just to stay with Mac. That wouldn't have been an issue if MBP had USB 3.0 ports and had a 32GB/64GB. Apple went to remove the ports, and in this case, the customer decided to move away from them. So it looks like the negative feedback you saw in internet involved some real customers.
Apple added more useful ports and there's no need to replace drives when a cheap USB-C hub works.
External USB-C batteries exist with 85W output...but frankly, having done heavy computing in the field...anything burning through a battery in 2 hours you're better off using a generator than external battery packs or replacement batteries.
Huzzah. Most curious to hear how the haters and critics spin these facts to fit their narrative...
I was amused to see how the haters on MR spun the increase in ipad sales — “This is just the cheap new ipad padding the numbers!” first time i’d heard of anyone criticizing Apple for offering cheap ipads! what will they complain about next?!!
Avon will chime in that he provided no hard breakdown by units so it must just be spin and the new MBP sales in actuality sucked and all the sales the legacy MBP.
I could chime in with a lot of things. Let's start with some hard facts as some comments seem to based on things that weren't made the way they are portrayed.
After the disastrous Christmas episode which saw little of the Mac line updated, Apple reported earnings and claimed that most sales were to first time Mac buyers. In spite of pent up demand from Mac users, are we to understand that the majority of those existing mac users didn't actually bite even after the long wait? Those earnings could have been the worst Mac figures for a Christmas season in a very, very long time. Are we to believe that Windows switchers and computer newbies saved Apple's Christmas bacon?
Basically, the only new Macs were the MacBook Pros with USB-C TB. In spite of most of the then current Mac line not having USB-C, the fervent ones quickly proclaimed anything non-USB C as 'legacy'. A strange claim when Apple, at that very time, was offering those same 'legacy' ports on, ehem, 'new' machines (although in reality they were basically the same ones that had on sale the previous Christmas - 2015). No wonder many Mac users passed on those machines during the Christmas 2016 period. But did they jump on the new models instead? It seems not if the majority of buyers were new to the Mac. But of course, we can't know because Apple doesn't provide that info.
Months passed and finally we got the new, looooong awaited iMacs. Hooray! And they were half decent upgrades to boot. Double hooray! But, no doubt to the dismay of the fervent ones, they came with lots of legacy ports on them! Without doubt that put them in a bit of a predicament. Legacy wasn't legacy after all! Apple just did what most sane people expected from the outset. They added USB-C TB to the existing line. 'Pure Genius!' some might say, although the correct phrase would be better left at 'Elementary, dear Watson'.
So what happened? Ah, my twisted theory is that while Jony Ive was busy designing his Christmas tree, someone at Apple decided to to do the right thing and transition to USB-C and got the new iMacs approved without making them even thinner! Of course it would also be logical to conclude that if those ports weren't legacy at all, then the MBP could have received a similar upgrade. A true transition in the true sense of the word. After all, at the time, the world wasn't exactly awash with devices that could take advantage of the ports. The world was awash (and still is!) with your standard slow speed gear which users had, and still have. Something that went completely over the heads of many people was that the ports themselves weren't even the issue. No one is or was anti-USB-C TB. That just wasn't the case. Never was.
The fervent ones defended the new MBPs as best they could but many became obsessed with the dongle situation (probably hurt by Apple becoming an internet laughing stock at the time) but lost track of the fact that ports were not the only quibble. Price was another. And there were many others too.
Some people weren't convinced by the processor situation and doubted about putting so much money into a new machine because they feared a revision in a few months might make their investment a bad one. People tried to allay those fears by saying a processor change would only bring marginal improvements so it was a non-issue bla, bla, bla.
Apple duly updated those Macs and surprise, surprise, the performance improvement was actually rather noticeable. Ouch! But not to worry, those who invested in the previous iteration were good for years as Macs last so long! And look how thin they are! You can almost touch the glue through that silent ;-) keyboard! Personally, being long in the tooth, I would look more closely at what Kabylake offered and see that if h.265 was important for you, then putting the purchase back might make more sense. It all depended on how long Apple would take to upgrade the machines, which in the end was no time at all. Is that a double ouch!? Perhaps, somewhat strange given the massive success of the line! Why fiddle with the line if it was blazing a trail of glory? And they brought the baseline price down too. Something Apple is famed for when it has a roaring success on its hands. Not!
People talk about 'whiners' (it's so easy to label people) but those same people are seemingly incapable of actually listening to what is being said. The reasons put on the table etc.
I'm convinced that, as a result of people's geniune opinions, Apple has responded favourably on several fronts. They admitted to the press (yes, the press, no less!) that the 'innovative' Mac Pro design had backed them into a corner. They promised to fix that. This was a totally unprecedented move by Apple but it didn't stop there. At the introduction of the new iMacs, they even provided some details on a new breed of iMac which would be released at a much later date. I wonder why these things ever happened? There was no real need for it. Surely it wasn't due to the whiners! Heaven forbid. This isn't the same as with the HomePod. With that, Apple is late to the game and needed to put the product on the radar. A wise move, especially after hinting that such a device wasn't really necessary.
So here we are in the run up to the end of the year and we will possibly have those legacy ports into 2018. Who would have thought that by reading comments here from 2016?
After all the fuss about the new MBPs, and Phil Schiller desperately trying to douse the flames by actually coming out and publicly saying how great sales of the new machines were, even though he only had a few days sales data to go on (yes, the devil is in the details, as always), just made a rod for his own back. He really should have followed up on those comments. He didn't.
Apple's refusal to break figures down is nothing new but they could have easily made a small exception for the new MBP given the furor around them. 'Slim chance of that' you might say, but would it be slimmer than Apple calling a meeting with tech journalists to tell the world how wrong they got it with the Mac Pro? Slimmer than them announcing a major new product line months in advance?
So. Sales. I have yet to see a new MBP outside an AppleStore. That isn't normal so long after release. I don't live under a rock and I travel a lot. It might not mean much but, for me, it remains very unusual.
Are the MBPs flying off the shelves? I very much doubt it. The processor upgrade, a far better iMac line and a reduction in the entry level price of the MBP probably helped out across the board, but as I've said before and so many times, sales are only part of the picture. The sales you don't get are equally important and knowing why you don't get them is key.
Luca said: "Thanks to great performance from the new MacBook Pro we generated 7 percent revenue growth over last year".
Is that growth in MBP revenue, or is it the 7% growth across the board that is mentioned in the opener?
It seems like a very vague, almost empty statement to make, and 7% is giving a new definition to 'great' in my book. And if we're talking MBP growth over the same period last year, perhaps it would have been better not to say anything. Or perhaps I'm just not seeing something that is so evident it becomes invisible. To be absolutely honest I haven't perused anything in these last calls.
I vote with my money. I don't like the new MBPs for a host of reasons and will not buy one today. My opinion hasn't changed in the slightest since they were released.
People say 'you're not Apple's target' which is fine - to a point - but given what has happened since last November it might be better to reserve those 'absolute' claims for a little longer in an attempt to avoid egg on one's face because many of things people have said since last November, that would never happen, actually have!
There are signs of very slight change at Apple. Perhaps they are inching out of the 'only premium' corner some say they backed themselves into over the last few years.
The MBA refuses to die. People were saying it was EOL no sooner had the new MBs and MBPs arrived. That was 2016. It might now stay around until 2018, I don't know. What I do know is that those people who said it was dead, were simply wrong. The fact that it got an update (albeit minuscule) said a lot.
The 'low end' could very well be saving the day. We can't know but the entry level price reduction on the MBP wasn't necessary, right? Such was the popularity of the range, even with the eye watering price tags.
People said Apple doesn't make things 'fatter' and if you don't like thin, 'Apple isn't for you'. They forget that even the iPhone has got fatter in the past. They don't want to see that the iPad got fatter. People say 'premium' is all Apple does and forget that the new entry level iPad was designed (and priced) for the non-premium market. They forget that the iPhone 6 is receiving a major marketing push right now at affordable prices. As mentioned, the Air refuses to die. This all goes against the grain of the people who throw absolutes around. Apple is definitely realising that they cannot keep going as a premium only brand. It has most of its eggs in the iPhone basket and when the bottom falls out of that basket things won't be nice for them on Wall Street, or anywhere.
Am I wrong to say 'when' instead of 'if' here? Only an utter fool would say (today) that Apple can replicate the same success of the last 8 years in the coming 8 years. They absolutely have to reduce dependency on the 'premium' iPhone as the competition has pulled up its socks and China remains flat and with no signs of changing. Isn't that what Time Cook himself said?
We are still missing the large screen affordable iPhone and the Mini, and in the absence of some kind of AR headset/glasses I think the iPad would actually be well suited for something like AR, especially the iPad Mini (as strange as that might sound seeing as so many think it is already dead).
In conclusion, did sales of the new MBP sky rocket after launch? No (if they had, Schiller would have had tweet orgasm over it). Has the price reduction and Kabylake upgrade kept MBP momentum going? Probably. Has the iMac refresh helped? Of course. Have the iPhone 7/7+ been the real backbone of this quarter? That's clear. Are people holding off iPhone purchases until the September/October announcements? That's also clear. Will we see slight improvements and price adjustments to the iMac/MBP/MB for the Christmas season. I hope so.
So to sum up, yeah, you were right, LOL. Apple still hasn't put any real numbers on the table (understandably or not) but there is nothing there to say the new MBP has been a massive seller and I do actually believe they could sell a lot more than they currently do.
This is my opinion of course and as I'm just not interested in the current MBP for so many reasons, I haven't bothered to fact check everything. I'm speaking from memory but I'm sure you'll correct me if there is something factually incorrect. LOL.
Most of your screed is pure CT, a great deal of very poor analysis of facts, and frankly numbers of falsehoods, and of course, I disagree with what you and every other so called expert states abput Apple Marketing.
Still, after all that you have accused Apple of, do you really believe that Luca lied to shareholders about MBP sales?
Just for the record, Apple is generating more revenue and profits on the Apple Watch than MS is generating on its entire surface line. I just threw that out there because I could.
But but...the MacBook Pro is overpriced and the dongle hell issue keeps everyone from buying them! And those iMacs...gosh, those are just so lame today!
Where are all of these people who basically said the new MacBook Pro will be a failure because of its lack of ports, you need a dongle for everything, its way too expensive? And don't give me this crap about well what if it had more ports and was cheaper, they'd sell twice as much. Thats absolute pure BS! That touch bar is just a gimmick and won't help sell the MacBook Pro.
Where are these people now? All quiet with their tail between their legs in defeat as usual. They never learn. Apple know its market a hell of a lot better than any one of us here. They see things we will never see. They have more data than we could possibly ever get. We need to stop trying to run Apple to suit our own needs. Our needs may not be the needs of the majority which is a hell of a lot more important to Apple as a company than a very small set of customers.
>>> Almost... The truth is sometimes somewhere between! The sales force market is what Apple sold to, not the real heavy-weigh creatives! Apple saw the MacBook Air & MacBook (new) is what the sales force types want in size & weight with the performance of a MacBook Pro! Thats what Apple created and it sold to as it was the bigger market. <<<
>>> If you are a real creative type or engineer the New MacBook Pro's fell short. They are the ones that have a big need in using ports and need gobs of RAM (video editing) This is the group Apple did not sell to. Apple needs to create a Pro's Pro (i'll call it the MacBook Pro-X) hitting all of the points Apple failed to address. <<<
>>> Yes! The creative & engineering users are vocal as they are in need of better gear too! <<<
>>> As an example the company I work for will be dropping 300+ MacBook Pro's and going to HP & Dell laptops. We just can't wait any more, 3 years in limbo! Our needs are ports Type A USB without dongles, removable storage (security) and long battery life. Within the next year or so I will likely loose my job because of the hardware switch. If Apple came out with the MacBook Pro-X I know the pro's would run and buy it. If it had come out in the spring our company would have bought replacements for what we have in the field and then some! And I would still a bright future supporting them all. <<<
A USB-C to USB-B cable is $6. USB-C to micro-USB-B is $5. No dongles required. If you need 300 of them, you can probably get them cheaper.
Removable storage you won't find with a drive that has the speed of the MacBook Pro SSD, and you won't find in HP or Dell's workstations. Apple's battery life is best in class. Regarding RAM, talk to Intel. Kaby Lake doesn't support 32GB of LPDDR3 RAM, and to get there with LPDDR4 is two chip generations away. Other machines that can do it use a separate controller, and you won't get MacBook Pro battery life.
The Dell i7 15-inch with 32GB of RAM, and a slower 512GB SSD? It's $2899. It has a four-hour battery life.
If this is accurate, and I have no reason to believe it's not, your management and/or ownership are full of it and just want to be rid of Macs.
These Pros screaming for 32GB of RAM and beefy Apple hardware will need to put their money where their mouth is, and do it soon. The vast majority of Apple's market has spoken whether we like it or not. These Pros? They are in the low single-digits of 10 percent of Apple's business from a dollar perspective. At best, given Apple's own numbers, 0.5 percent, at best.
Mike I'm not disagreeing with you. Apple saw a market that was underserved and it struct it and hit pay dirt! No question about that.
As for USB-B to USB-C cables. That works for printers and other devices that have removable cables. It doesn't solve the USB thumb drives and devices that don't have removable cables. Sadly we have a lot.
As far as storage theres more to it than speed it's gaining access to the data when the system craps out as well as the security of the data when the system needs to be serviced. Some of us work on stuff thats very confidential! Which is why removable internal storage is a must. Apples new SSD using in the 13" function key model appears to offer both speed & removability, so it can be done.
Our testing shows the Dell is 7~8 hours web surfing which is about the same for the MacBook Pro's using Chrome. So I'm not sure where you got 4 hours. Granted, this is not much of a load and in use. We can only get about 2hrs for either running CAD with our workloads in either. Which is why we need a bigger battery option. Right now we are using some external batteries when we have no choice. But they don't fit the USB-C port. I'm sure USB-C options will show up that will help but thats not now.
Yes, the heavy weight Pro market is much smaller but its also the group that made Apple Apple! If augmented reality (AR) is what Apple wants to get into its this group which will lead the pack. So if they can't do it with what Apple is selling were does that leave Apple?
Look at IBM with Watson this is a very expensive box and only a few 100 will be sold. Yet it will be what sets the mark in predictive analytical breakdown. I'm sure Apple has access to one or two for its AI efforts.
So big companies do see the value of small niche products that build sales indirectly. Apple needs to see the light here that this is no different! It's the development of the next big thing that it needs to nurture. Failing to do that will weaken its' importance as a leader.
As for the company I work for. They pleated directly with Apple quite a few times as they did not want to jump (they still don't want to). It was a very tough decision and was driven from the support staff not upper management. I know of one other mid-sized company that will likely do the same.
It's the small & mid-sized companies that don't have the deep pockets to rotate equipment like the bigger companies and they likewise want to squeeze out every ounce out of the gear they do buy or lease. This is the market Apple is loosing as in our case.
I disagree with you for the most part on what Apple should do for the market; your use case has "niche" written all over it, and you/your company doesn't seem to care to adapt, very fast anyway. "Pro's" are just as likely to resist change as any other computing segment; move on.
You blame the company because they don't want to adapt, but have you consider that what Apple offered didn't match their needs, while HP and Dell (which have great devices) did?
Purchase USB Type C Thumb Drive; they are readily available.
Increase your battery life by using Safari instead of Chrome, which has a notorious reputation for poor battery life on an MBP, albeit Google has greatly improved it to date.
Solve your removable storage issue by using a USB Type C mass storage device, including a TB 3 one for performance . Use a different CAD system not laden with decades of legacy code, which most are, to increase battery life. A difficult transition, but otherwise, I'm not seeing the need for Apple to figure out why your CAD software is so power inefficient. What software do use you and what for?
You suggest to replace all of their USB drives, stop using Chrome and change their CAD system just to stay with Mac. That wouldn't have been an issue if MBP had USB 3.0 ports and had a 32GB/64GB. Apple went to remove the ports, and in this case, the customer decided to move away from them. So it looks like the negative feedback you saw in internet involved some real customers.
And how do you know if their CAD software is power inefficient? Could it be that the type of work require a lot of CPU/GPU, draining the battery more quickly?
I am reminded of the other concern that Pro's had; 32 GB of DRAM. For the most part, I see this as a requirement that they pulled out of their asses, with no actual, nor relevant testing to determine if it was even required. But some "Pro Creatives" did test, for video workflows as an example and did find that the top end MBP did just fine, and posted benchmarks and workflow to prove it. In fact, the only relevant concern I can see that is not covered by the Intel Roadmap in the near future, is the need for a top end MBP without the Touch Bar.
Pro Creatives are only one of a long list of professional who will benefit of having more than 16GB or RAM. As an example, architects and engineers working in huge CAD drawings, even in 3D.
Finally, wrt the Mac Pro, Apple has hinted at a new form factor, with, I'm assuming, reasonable performance levels.
I would add, If the Mac Mini dies, it is because it has outlived it's usefulness as the utility of entry level PC's diminishes.
Apple completely failed with the Mac Pro and Mac Mini, even though they were good devices for their time. You mention how the Mac Mini died because of it outlived their usefulness. That's the opposite of HP, that had the vision of creating a workstation in a size similar to the Mac Mini. Why Apple didn't though of that?
I proposed some minimalist purchases and various practices that would at low cost, easily mitigate most of the posters requirements. Sorry, but his use case was niche, and your arguing that Apple needs to provide niche products is not supported by your arguments. As I well recall, you are a big fan of Surface Products, and to date, those products leave out TB and as well, don't provide 32 GB either, and have more limited battery life in the same workflows that the MBP. MS doesn't build portable workstations either.
You propose to change the CAD application. That option by itself it's not low cost at all. On this case being a niche, I don't think you have all the details of their needs to label them as niche. What is clear is that Apple devices didn't suit their business needs. You need to understand that Apple in not the only high end option, HP, Dell and Lenovo have great devices too. BTW, would you give them the same options to keep their devices if they were moving from HP/Dell or Mac, or would you tell them to move ASAP?
About me being a Surface fan, personally I don't consider being one, neither of Macbooks (BTW, I currently own a MBA that died after 4yrs and will replace with a MBP). They are great devices, but only with the purpose of accomplish my work. So I don't have an attachment or need to be a fan of them. And while MS don't have workstations, I have seen in my customers Dell Precision and HP Z workstations that are as good, and sometimes better than what Apple offers. And that doesn't mean Apple devices are bad, just that there are cases where other devices are better than what they offer.
I use CAD, Solidworks and Inventor, program machine tools, and in almost all use cases, barring heavy simulation, there isn't a requirement for anywhere near 16 GB. As I stated, Apple is waiting for Intel, likely the Cannon Lake processor family, for implementation into a future MBP, the user of which will get 32 GB with continued good battery life, all in a widely marketed package.
Still, one has to look at any application that only gets two hours of life out of a laptop as an aberration; a portable workstation might get double that at most. You would still need an external battery/power supply in that use case.
In your case there is no need for +16GB of RAM, but that doesn't mean there are cases where more is needed. Right now Apple went with the 16GB / good battery life option, while Dell and HP gives you more options. You should know the are real cases where 32GB of RAM is the best option.
On battery life, application not always are the cause of the problem. Sometimes the type of work requiere a lot of CPU/GPU draining battery faster.
If you don't like Apple's product line, if you believe that the next Mac Pro will be a market failure, then buy your favored Dell or HP products, but you still haven't made a case for Apple building a portable workstation, which is what your are asking for, for a very niche market. That's why I pointed out how well Apple profits are growing in the market; they won't build stuff that is unprofitable.
I like Apple product, and own many of them. I know the current Mac Pro is a failure and that the current workstations from HP and Dell are great devices. But have no ideal how the Mac Pro / iMac Pro will do. I don't need to make a case for Apple building a mobile workstation, that's up to them. But I'm sure that when you have customers like Dreamworks and NASA, among others big names, there is big money involved. I don't think the workstation market is unprofitable at all.
>>> Almost... The truth is sometimes somewhere between! The sales force market is what Apple sold to, not the real heavy-weigh creatives! Apple saw the MacBook Air & MacBook (new) is what the sales force types want in size & weight with the performance of a MacBook Pro! Thats what Apple created and it sold to as it was the bigger market. <<<
>>> If you are a real creative type or engineer the New MacBook Pro's fell short. They are the ones that have a big need in using ports and need gobs of RAM (video editing) This is the group Apple did not sell to. Apple needs to create a Pro's Pro (i'll call it the MacBook Pro-X) hitting all of the points Apple failed to address. <<<
>>> Yes! The creative & engineering users are vocal as they are in need of better gear too! <<<
>>> As an example the company I work for will be dropping 300+ MacBook Pro's and going to HP & Dell laptops. We just can't wait any more, 3 years in limbo! Our needs are ports Type A USB without dongles, removable storage (security) and long battery life. Within the next year or so I will likely loose my job because of the hardware switch. If Apple came out with the MacBook Pro-X I know the pro's would run and buy it. If it had come out in the spring our company would have bought replacements for what we have in the field and then some! And I would still a bright future supporting them all. <<<
A USB-C to USB-B cable is $6. USB-C to micro-USB-B is $5. No dongles required. If you need 300 of them, you can probably get them cheaper.
Removable storage you won't find with a drive that has the speed of the MacBook Pro SSD, and you won't find in HP or Dell's workstations. Apple's battery life is best in class. Regarding RAM, talk to Intel. Kaby Lake doesn't support 32GB of LPDDR3 RAM, and to get there with LPDDR4 is two chip generations away. Other machines that can do it use a separate controller, and you won't get MacBook Pro battery life.
The Dell i7 15-inch with 32GB of RAM, and a slower 512GB SSD? It's $2899. It has a four-hour battery life.
If this is accurate, and I have no reason to believe it's not, your management and/or ownership are full of it and just want to be rid of Macs.
These Pros screaming for 32GB of RAM and beefy Apple hardware will need to put their money where their mouth is, and do it soon. The vast majority of Apple's market has spoken whether we like it or not. These Pros? They are in the low single-digits of 10 percent of Apple's business from a dollar perspective. At best, given Apple's own numbers, 0.5 percent, at best.
Mike I'm not disagreeing with you. Apple saw a market that was underserved and it struct it and hit pay dirt! No question about that.
As for USB-B to USB-C cables. That works for printers and other devices that have removable cables. It doesn't solve the USB thumb drives and devices that don't have removable cables. Sadly we have a lot.
As far as storage theres more to it than speed it's gaining access to the data when the system craps out as well as the security of the data when the system needs to be serviced. Some of us work on stuff thats very confidential! Which is why removable internal storage is a must. Apples new SSD using in the 13" function key model appears to offer both speed & removability, so it can be done.
Our testing shows the Dell is 7~8 hours web surfing which is about the same for the MacBook Pro's using Chrome. So I'm not sure where you got 4 hours. Granted, this is not much of a load and in use. We can only get about 2hrs for either running CAD with our workloads in either. Which is why we need a bigger battery option. Right now we are using some external batteries when we have no choice. But they don't fit the USB-C port. I'm sure USB-C options will show up that will help but thats not now.
Yes, the heavy weight Pro market is much smaller but its also the group that made Apple Apple! If augmented reality (AR) is what Apple wants to get into its this group which will lead the pack. So if they can't do it with what Apple is selling were does that leave Apple?
Look at IBM with Watson this is a very expensive box and only a few 100 will be sold. Yet it will be what sets the mark in predictive analytical breakdown. I'm sure Apple has access to one or two for its AI efforts.
So big companies do see the value of small niche products that build sales indirectly. Apple needs to see the light here that this is no different! It's the development of the next big thing that it needs to nurture. Failing to do that will weaken its' importance as a leader.
As for the company I work for. They pleated directly with Apple quite a few times as they did not want to jump (they still don't want to). It was a very tough decision and was driven from the support staff not upper management. I know of one other mid-sized company that will likely do the same.
It's the small & mid-sized companies that don't have the deep pockets to rotate equipment like the bigger companies and they likewise want to squeeze out every ounce out of the gear they do buy or lease. This is the market Apple is loosing as in our case.
I disagree with you for the most part on what Apple should do for the market; your use case has "niche" written all over it, and you/your company doesn't seem to care to adapt, very fast anyway. "Pro's" are just as likely to resist change as any other computing segment; move on.
Purchase USB Type C Thumb Drive; they are readily available.
Increase your battery life by using Safari instead of Chrome, which has a notorious reputation for poor battery life on an MBP, albeit Google has greatly improved it to date.
Solve your removable storage issue by using a USB Type C mass storage device, including a TB 3 one for performance . Use a different CAD system not laden with decades of legacy code, which most are, to increase battery life. A difficult transition, but otherwise, I'm not seeing the need for Apple to figure out why your CAD software is so power inefficient. What software do use you and what for?
I am reminded of the other concern that Pro's had; 32 GB of DRAM. For the most part, I see this as a requirement that they pulled out of their asses, with no actual, nor relevant testing to determine if it was even required. But some "Pro Creatives" did test, for video workflows as an example and did find that the top end MBP did just fine, and posted benchmarks and workflow to prove it. In fact, the only relevant concern I can see that is not covered by the Intel Roadmap in the near future, is the need for a top end MBP without the Touch Bar.
Finally, wrt the Mac Pro, Apple has hinted at a new form factor, with, I'm assuming, reasonable performance levels.
I would add, If the Mac Mini dies, it is because it has outlived it's usefulness as the utility of entry level PC's diminishes.
Sorry Guy we don't throw out the baby with the bathwater!
You have no idea the scale of change you are talking about here! You also don't follow we are on the cutting edge! We need more horse power as we are doing more and in most cases we are using the best software available.
You have this idea there are options in software there are none! We are using the best thats available.
A good 25% of the time we are hitting the 16GB RAM wall so 32GB would improve things for us, Some of the tools we use work better with more RAM.
Frankly you're full of it. First you claim the MBP is only for the "sales force market" and not "real heavy-weigh [sic} creatives" claiming that video requires "lots of RAM". Ignoring FCPX because we know the MBP runs that very well and only considering PPro doing a 10 camera 4K ProRes the app memory used was 5.85 GB. Doing split 4K the measured RAM usage was 10GB with only moderate memory pressure.
Here's a quote from Adobe:
"There is a certain amount of overhead as projects grow that requires more and more RAM for larger projects. Uses such as multiple applications with heavy DynamicLink benefit from lots of memory. The “Deadpool” [feature film] reels would have been painful with 16 GB. Most people however aren’t working on “Deadpool” or even using multiple applications and so don’t practically demand this level of resources. Where [its] available, [as with the] iMacs, I’d suggest [adding] more just because RAM is so cheap, but the limits on the MacBooks won’t hurt the wide bulk of our user base."
-- Al Mooney, Senior Product Manager for Professional Video Editing at Adobe Systems
Then you talk about running CAD and burning through batteries in 2 hours. As if most folks using CAD software is doing it somewhere without AC power. In any case there are USB-C battery solutions that provide 87W power (hyper juice batteries + USB-C adapter) but as I mentioned earlier, it's a lot easier to use a generator if you're in the field and need heavy compute power for longer periods.
As a note, Autodesk added Touchbar support for AutoCAD 2017. So has Graphisoft in ARCHICAD 21.
But frankly, if I was regularly using CAD heavily in the field I'd throw an 27" iMac into a pelican case and arrange to have a Honda generator. Using any CAD software on a 15" screen is simply painful. Somewhere I still have my 3d connexion space mouse from back when and I had a 30" monitor back then that always seemed too small.
You propose to change the CAD application. That option by itself it's not low cost at all. On this case being a niche, I don't think you have all the details of their needs to label them as niche. What is clear is that Apple devices didn't suit their business needs. You need to understand that Apple in not the only high end option, HP, Dell and Lenovo have great devices too. BTW, would you give them the same options to keep their devices if they were moving from HP/Dell or Mac, or would you tell them to move ASAP?
About me being a Surface fan, personally I don't consider being one, neither of Macbooks (BTW, I currently own a MBA that died after 4yrs and will replace with a MBP). They are great devices, but only with the purpose of accomplish my work. So I don't have an attachment or need to be a fan of them. And while MS don't have workstations, I have seen in my customers Dell Precision and HP Z workstations that are as good, and sometimes better than what Apple offers. And that doesn't mean Apple devices are bad, just that there are cases where other devices are better than what they offer.
I use CAD, Solidworks and Inventor, program machine tools, and in almost all use cases, barring heavy simulation, there isn't a requirement for anywhere near 16 GB. As I stated, Apple is waiting for Intel, likely the Cannon Lake processor family, for implementation into a future MBP, the user of which will get 32 GB with continued good battery life, all in a widely marketed package.
Still, one has to look at any application that only gets two hours of life out of a laptop as an aberration; a portable workstation might get double that at most. You would still need an external battery/power supply in that use case.
In your case there is no need for +16GB of RAM, but that doesn't mean there are cases where more is needed. Right now Apple went with the 16GB / good battery life option, while Dell and HP gives you more options. You should know the are real cases where 32GB of RAM is the best option.
On battery life, application not always are the cause of the problem. Sometimes the type of work requiere a lot of CPU/GPU draining battery faster.
So, here's the thing.
I've been around Mac's since the 128. I even worked for a Federal agency at the time that was installing Computervision MCAD hardware, which I help evaluate and spec, based on a 68020 Sun Workstation, and in my entire life since then, I've noted so few CAD programs exclusive to the Mac, that I'm left to believe that BigDann is pushing an inaccurate storyline.
Now I might be wrong about BigDann, though he could certainly clear that up with a bit of concise information about the applications.
I do believe that there are many use cases that require 32GB or more DRAM, but I can't fault Apple for 1) not building a niche workstation out of the MBP, and, 2) waiting until Intel supports LPDDR4 mobile DRAM so they can maintain good battery life. As for the rest of the complaints, including the keyboard, I'm not buying it other that personal preference, or, inability to adapt to loss of legacy I/0.
Apple isn't attempting to compete with Dell or Hp in the PC market. Apple is participating in the x86/x64 market for the benefit of its Mac OS users who need that capability, though certainly Apple has a roadmap where Intel hardware can be deprecated in favor of something else, likely more customizable.
Mike Wuerthele said: The vast majority of Apple's market has spoken whether we like it or not. These Pros? They are in the low single-digits of 10 percent of Apple's business from a dollar perspective. At best, given Apple's own numbers, 0.5 percent, at best.
The problem with this argument is that’s basically the percentage of farmers in the Western world these days. So farm equipment should just stop being made, because it’s such a small percentage of the overall vehicle market. Right? It does Apple no good to make ONLY machines that are designed for content consumption if there’s no content left to be consumed.
“But your analogy is flawed,” you say, “as content creators will simply go to Windows and produce from there. Comparing the entirety of the farming industry to just a small portion of the computer industry is wrong. It would be better to say, ‘There may not be farm implements anymore, but people can still eat tofu and pasteurized processed cheese-flavored spread.’”
Well, if that’s the world you want.
Sometimes i feel like a great chef who has devoted his entire life to monastic study of the art of cooking and gathered the finest ingredients and built the most advanced kitchen and prepared the most exquisite meal–so perfect, so delicious, so extraordinary; more astounding than any meal ever created. Yet each day i stand in my window and watch 97% percent of the world walk past my restaurant into the McDonald’s across the street… – Fake Steve Jobs
Comments
I'm a professional keyboard player. Believe me, I'm fairly experienced when it comes to how fingers adjust to different tactile responses, amounts of travel, feedback, stiffness, bounce, and attack. Every single mechanical piano, every single different type of keyboard, takes some adjusting. I'll need a few minutes of playing just to acclimatise to each of the three pianos I have at home — an old acoustic, a 1977 Mk 1 Fender Rhodes, and a CP70 — and I've been playing those for years. Not to mention the 'boards I have in the studio, or the ones I take on the road.
Of course it's an "issue". But not a major one, and unless there is somebody with a piece of hardware that actually breaks due to the port switch, I'm inclined not to take too seriously the concerns of people who have the time to whine all over the internet about how they are unable to work with a USB-C port.
I beg to differ.
As for USB-B to USB-C cables. That works for printers and other devices that have removable cables. It doesn't solve the USB thumb drives and devices that don't have removable cables. Sadly we have a lot.
As far as storage theres more to it than speed it's gaining access to the data when the system craps out as well as the security of the data when the system needs to be serviced. Some of us work on stuff thats very confidential! Which is why removable internal storage is a must. Apples new SSD using in the 13" function key model appears to offer both speed & removability, so it can be done.
Our testing shows the Dell is 7~8 hours web surfing which is about the same for the MacBook Pro's using Chrome. So I'm not sure where you got 4 hours. Granted, this is not much of a load and in use. We can only get about 2hrs for either running CAD with our workloads in either. Which is why we need a bigger battery option. Right now we are using some external batteries when we have no choice. But they don't fit the USB-C port. I'm sure USB-C options will show up that will help but thats not now.
Yes, the heavy weight Pro market is much smaller but its also the group that made Apple Apple! If augmented reality (AR) is what Apple wants to get into its this group which will lead the pack. So if they can't do it with what Apple is selling were does that leave Apple?
Look at IBM with Watson this is a very expensive box and only a few 100 will be sold. Yet it will be what sets the mark in predictive analytical breakdown. I'm sure Apple has access to one or two for its AI efforts.
So big companies do see the value of small niche products that build sales indirectly. Apple needs to see the light here that this is no different! It's the development of the next big thing that it needs to nurture. Failing to do that will weaken its' importance as a leader.
As for the company I work for. They pleated directly with Apple quite a few times as they did not want to jump (they still don't want to). It was a very tough decision and was driven from the support staff not upper management. I know of one other mid-sized company that will likely do the same.
It's the small & mid-sized companies that don't have the deep pockets to rotate equipment like the bigger companies and they likewise want to squeeze out every ounce out of the gear they do buy or lease. This is the market Apple is loosing as in our case.
You ought to be jumping for joy at the 2016 models! (well, at least for that aspect — the non-removable-storage argument still holds, of course)
Not at all. This is the group that kept Apple alive during the 90s despite not being the people Macintosh was actually initially targeted at.
The group that made Apple Apple (as in: the hugest, most massive consumer electronics company the world has ever known) are the iPod customers and subsequently Windows-switchers who bought Macs, and even more so, those on iOS — "pro" or otherwise. THEY made the vision of mobile, connected computing — Jobs' original vision from the early 80s — a ubiquitous reality.
Purchase USB Type C Thumb Drive; they are readily available.
Increase your battery life by using Safari instead of Chrome, which has a notorious reputation for poor battery life on an MBP, albeit Google has greatly improved it to date.
Solve your removable storage issue by using a USB Type C mass storage device, including a TB 3 one for performance
.
Use a different CAD system not laden with decades of legacy code, which most are, to increase battery life. A difficult transition, but otherwise, I'm not seeing the need for Apple to figure out why your CAD software is so power inefficient. What software do use you and what for?
I am reminded of the other concern that Pro's had; 32 GB of DRAM. For the most part, I see this as a requirement that they pulled out of their asses, with no actual, nor relevant testing to determine if it was even required. But some "Pro Creatives" did test, for video workflows as an example and did find that the top end MBP did just fine, and posted benchmarks and workflow to prove it. In fact, the only relevant concern I can see that is not covered by the Intel Roadmap in the near future, is the need for a top end MBP without the Touch Bar.
Finally, wrt the Mac Pro, Apple has hinted at a new form factor, with, I'm assuming, reasonable performance levels.
I would add, If the Mac Mini dies, it is because it has outlived it's usefulness as the utility of entry level PC's diminishes.
It's not major issue for us, but you cannot say in absolute terms that isn't an issue for some people.
You suggest to replace all of their USB drives, stop using Chrome and change their CAD system just to stay with Mac. That wouldn't have been an issue if MBP had USB 3.0 ports and had a 32GB/64GB. Apple went to remove the ports, and in this case, the customer decided to move away from them. So it looks like the negative feedback you saw in internet involved some real customers.
And how do you know if their CAD software is power inefficient? Could it be that the type of work require a lot of CPU/GPU, draining the battery more quickly?
Pro Creatives are only one of a long list of professional who will benefit of having more than 16GB or RAM. As an example, architects and engineers working in huge CAD drawings, even in 3D.
Apple completely failed with the Mac Pro and Mac Mini, even though they were good devices for their time. You mention how the Mac Mini died because of it outlived their usefulness. That's the opposite of HP, that had the vision of creating a workstation in a size similar to the Mac Mini. Why Apple didn't though of that?
http://www8.hp.com/us/en/workstations/z2mini.html
I use CAD, Solidworks and Inventor, program machine tools, and in almost all use cases, barring heavy simulation, there isn't a requirement for anywhere near 16 GB. As I stated, Apple is waiting for Intel, likely the Cannon Lake processor family, for implementation into a future MBP, the user of which will get 32 GB with continued good battery life, all in a widely marketed package.
Still, one has to look at any application that only gets two hours of life out of a laptop as an aberration; a portable workstation might get double that at most. You would still need an external battery/power supply in that use case.
If you don't like Apple's product line, if you believe that the next Mac Pro will be a market failure, then buy your favored Dell or HP products, but you still haven't made a case for Apple building a portable workstation, which is what your are asking for, for a very niche market. That's why I pointed out how well Apple profits are growing in the market; they won't build stuff that is unprofitable.
I agree at the time heavy weight Pro market was a bigger group in scale than what the rest of what Apple sells to today. Alas, its become smaller market. The group is still much larger than what Razer Computer sells to in the gaming space! So its still a profitable venture if done right. I think Tim & Company are being swayed by the value of Apples stock and the shareholders (greed).
After the disastrous Christmas episode which saw little of the Mac line updated, Apple reported earnings and claimed that most sales were to first time Mac buyers. In spite of pent up demand from Mac users, are we to understand that the majority of those existing mac users didn't actually bite even after the long wait? Those earnings could have been the worst Mac figures for a Christmas season in a very, very long time. Are we to believe that Windows switchers and computer newbies saved Apple's Christmas bacon?
Basically, the only new Macs were the MacBook Pros with USB-C TB. In spite of most of the then current Mac line not having USB-C, the fervent ones quickly proclaimed anything non-USB C as 'legacy'. A strange claim when Apple, at that very time, was offering those same 'legacy' ports on, ehem, 'new' machines (although in reality they were basically the same ones that had on sale the previous Christmas - 2015). No wonder many Mac users passed on those machines during the Christmas 2016 period. But did they jump on the new models instead? It seems not if the majority of buyers were new to the Mac. But of course, we can't know because Apple doesn't provide that info.
Months passed and finally we got the new, looooong awaited iMacs. Hooray! And they were half decent upgrades to boot. Double hooray! But, no doubt to the dismay of the fervent ones, they came with lots of legacy ports on them! Without doubt that put them in a bit of a predicament. Legacy wasn't legacy after all! Apple just did what most sane people expected from the outset. They added USB-C TB to the existing line. 'Pure Genius!' some might say, although the correct phrase would be better left at 'Elementary, dear Watson'.
So what happened? Ah, my twisted theory is that while Jony Ive was busy designing his Christmas tree, someone at Apple decided to to do the right thing and transition to USB-C and got the new iMacs approved without making them even thinner! Of course it would also be logical to conclude that if those ports weren't legacy at all, then the MBP could have received a similar upgrade. A true transition in the true sense of the word. After all, at the time, the world wasn't exactly awash with devices that could take advantage of the ports. The world was awash (and still is!) with your standard slow speed gear which users had, and still have. Something that went completely over the heads of many people was that the ports themselves weren't even the issue. No one is or was anti-USB-C TB. That just wasn't the case. Never was.
The fervent ones defended the new MBPs as best they could but many became obsessed with the dongle situation (probably hurt by Apple becoming an internet laughing stock at the time) but lost track of the fact that ports were not the only quibble. Price was another. And there were many others too.
Some people weren't convinced by the processor situation and doubted about putting so much money into a new machine because they feared a revision in a few months might make their investment a bad one. People tried to allay those fears by saying a processor change would only bring marginal improvements so it was a non-issue bla, bla, bla.
Apple duly updated those Macs and surprise, surprise, the performance improvement was actually rather noticeable. Ouch! But not to worry, those who invested in the previous iteration were good for years as Macs last so long! And look how thin they are! You can almost touch the glue through that silent ;-) keyboard! Personally, being long in the tooth, I would look more closely at what Kabylake offered and see that if h.265 was important for you, then putting the purchase back might make more sense. It all depended on how long Apple would take to upgrade the machines, which in the end was no time at all. Is that a double ouch!? Perhaps, somewhat strange given the massive success of the line! Why fiddle with the line if it was blazing a trail of glory? And they brought the baseline price down too. Something Apple is famed for when it has a roaring success on its hands. Not!
People talk about 'whiners' (it's so easy to label people) but those same people are seemingly incapable of actually listening to what is being said. The reasons put on the table etc.
I'm convinced that, as a result of people's geniune opinions, Apple has responded favourably on several fronts. They admitted to the press (yes, the press, no less!) that the 'innovative' Mac Pro design had backed them into a corner. They promised to fix that. This was a totally unprecedented move by Apple but it didn't stop there. At the introduction of the new iMacs, they even provided some details on a new breed of iMac which would be released at a much later date. I wonder why these things ever happened? There was no real need for it. Surely it wasn't due to the whiners! Heaven forbid. This isn't the same as with the HomePod. With that, Apple is late to the game and needed to put the product on the radar. A wise move, especially after hinting that such a device wasn't really necessary.
So here we are in the run up to the end of the year and we will possibly have those legacy ports into 2018. Who would have thought that by reading comments here from 2016?
After all the fuss about the new MBPs, and Phil Schiller desperately trying to douse the flames by actually coming out and publicly saying how great sales of the new machines were, even though he only had a few days sales data to go on (yes, the devil is in the details, as always), just made a rod for his own back. He really should have followed up on those comments. He didn't.
Apple's refusal to break figures down is nothing new but they could have easily made a small exception for the new MBP given the furor around them. 'Slim chance of that' you might say, but would it be slimmer than Apple calling a meeting with tech journalists to tell the world how wrong they got it with the Mac Pro? Slimmer than them announcing a major new product line months in advance?
So. Sales. I have yet to see a new MBP outside an AppleStore. That isn't normal so long after release. I don't live under a rock and I travel a lot. It might not mean much but, for me, it remains very unusual.
Are the MBPs flying off the shelves? I very much doubt it. The processor upgrade, a far better iMac line and a reduction in the entry level price of the MBP probably helped out across the board, but as I've said before and so many times, sales are only part of the picture. The sales you don't get are equally important and knowing why you don't get them is key.
Luca said: "Thanks to great performance from the new MacBook Pro we generated 7 percent revenue growth over last year".
Is that growth in MBP revenue, or is it the 7% growth across the board that is mentioned in the opener?
It seems like a very vague, almost empty statement to make, and 7% is giving a new definition to 'great' in my book. And if we're talking MBP growth over the same period last year, perhaps it would have been better not to say anything. Or perhaps I'm just not seeing something that is so evident it becomes invisible. To be absolutely honest I haven't perused anything in these last calls.
I vote with my money. I don't like the new MBPs for a host of reasons and will not buy one today. My opinion hasn't changed in the slightest since they were released.
People say 'you're not Apple's target' which is fine - to a point - but given what has happened since last November it might be better to reserve those 'absolute' claims for a little longer in an attempt to avoid egg on one's face because many of things people have said since last November, that would never happen, actually have!
There are signs of very slight change at Apple. Perhaps they are inching out of the 'only premium' corner some say they backed themselves into over the last few years.
The MBA refuses to die. People were saying it was EOL no sooner had the new MBs and MBPs arrived. That was 2016. It might now stay around until 2018, I don't know. What I do know is that those people who said it was dead, were simply wrong. The fact that it got an update (albeit minuscule) said a lot.
The 'low end' could very well be saving the day. We can't know but the entry level price reduction on the MBP wasn't necessary, right? Such was the popularity of the range, even with the eye watering price tags.
People said Apple doesn't make things 'fatter' and if you don't like thin, 'Apple isn't for you'. They forget that even the iPhone has got fatter in the past. They don't want to see that the iPad got fatter. People say 'premium' is all Apple does and forget that the new entry level iPad was designed (and priced) for the non-premium market. They forget that the iPhone 6 is receiving a major marketing push right now at affordable prices. As mentioned, the Air refuses to die. This all goes against the grain of the people who throw absolutes around. Apple is definitely realising that they cannot keep going as a premium only brand. It has most of its eggs in the iPhone basket and when the bottom falls out of that basket things won't be nice for them on Wall Street, or anywhere.
Am I wrong to say 'when' instead of 'if' here? Only an utter fool would say (today) that Apple can replicate the same success of the last 8 years in the coming 8 years. They absolutely have to reduce dependency on the 'premium' iPhone as the competition has pulled up its socks and China remains flat and with no signs of changing. Isn't that what Time Cook himself said?
We are still missing the large screen affordable iPhone and the Mini, and in the absence of some kind of AR headset/glasses I think the iPad would actually be well suited for something like AR, especially the iPad Mini (as strange as that might sound seeing as so many think it is already dead).
In conclusion, did sales of the new MBP sky rocket after launch? No (if they had, Schiller would have had tweet orgasm over it). Has the price reduction and Kabylake upgrade kept MBP momentum going? Probably. Has the iMac refresh helped? Of course. Have the iPhone 7/7+ been the real backbone of this quarter? That's clear. Are people holding off iPhone purchases until the September/October announcements? That's also clear. Will we see slight improvements and price adjustments to the iMac/MBP/MB for the Christmas season. I hope so.
So to sum up, yeah, you were right, LOL. Apple still hasn't put any real numbers on the table (understandably or not) but there is nothing there to say the new MBP has been a massive seller and I do actually believe they could sell a lot more than they currently do.
This is my opinion of course and as I'm just not interested in the current MBP for so many reasons, I haven't bothered to fact check everything. I'm speaking from memory but I'm sure you'll correct me if there is something factually incorrect. LOL.
Sorry Guy we don't throw out the baby with the bathwater!
You have no idea the scale of change you are talking about here! You also don't follow we are on the cutting edge! We need more horse power as we are doing more and in most cases we are using the best software available.
You have this idea there are options in software there are none! We are using the best thats available.
A good 25% of the time we are hitting the 16GB RAM wall so 32GB would improve things for us, Some of the tools we use work better with more RAM.
You imply that the market 20 years ago means something today, it doesn't, and that the Pro market isn't, for the most part, well served by the MBP, which it is. Once you get to workstation requirements, for AR development as an example, then Apple has an iMac Pro on the way, and a bundled development system using the current iMac and a TB Graphics.
But the actual market for a MBP Workstation is too small a niche for Apple to be interested, at least at this time. As thermal requirements are reduced for laptops, while at the same time providing increased performance, you will still less and less requirement for a portable workstation. It will morph to a more capable MBP over time.
Your story comes across as very vague, but whatever, I've had enough of this.
External USB-C batteries exist with 85W output...but frankly, having done heavy computing in the field...anything burning through a battery in 2 hours you're better off using a generator than external battery packs or replacement batteries.
Still, after all that you have accused Apple of, do you really believe that Luca lied to shareholders about MBP sales?
Just for the record, Apple is generating more revenue and profits on the Apple Watch than MS is generating on its entire surface line. I just threw that out there because I could.
About me being a Surface fan, personally I don't consider being one, neither of Macbooks (BTW, I currently own a MBA that died after 4yrs and will replace with a MBP). They are great devices, but only with the purpose of accomplish my work. So I don't have an attachment or need to be a fan of them. And while MS don't have workstations, I have seen in my customers Dell Precision and HP Z workstations that are as good, and sometimes better than what Apple offers. And that doesn't mean Apple devices are bad, just that there are cases where other devices are better than what they offer.
In your case there is no need for +16GB of RAM, but that doesn't mean there are cases where more is needed. Right now Apple went with the 16GB / good battery life option, while Dell and HP gives you more options. You should know the are real cases where 32GB of RAM is the best option.
On battery life, application not always are the cause of the problem. Sometimes the type of work requiere a lot of CPU/GPU draining battery faster.
I like Apple product, and own many of them. I know the current Mac Pro is a failure and that the current workstations from HP and Dell are great devices. But have no ideal how the Mac Pro / iMac Pro will do. I don't need to make a case for Apple building a mobile workstation, that's up to them. But I'm sure that when you have customers like Dreamworks and NASA, among others big names, there is big money involved. I don't think the workstation market is unprofitable at all.
Frankly you're full of it. First you claim the MBP is only for the "sales force market" and not "real heavy-weigh [sic} creatives" claiming that video requires "lots of RAM". Ignoring FCPX because we know the MBP runs that very well and only considering PPro doing a 10 camera 4K ProRes the app memory used was 5.85 GB. Doing split 4K the measured RAM usage was 10GB with only moderate memory pressure.
Here's a quote from Adobe:
"There is a certain amount of overhead as projects grow that requires more and more RAM for larger projects. Uses such as multiple applications with heavy DynamicLink benefit from lots of memory. The “Deadpool” [feature film] reels would have been painful with 16 GB. Most people however aren’t working on “Deadpool” or even using multiple applications and so don’t practically demand this level of resources. Where [its] available, [as with the] iMacs, I’d suggest [adding] more just because RAM is so cheap, but the limits on the MacBooks won’t hurt the wide bulk of our user base."
-- Al Mooney, Senior Product Manager for Professional Video Editing at Adobe Systems
https://larryjordan.com/articles/is-the-new-macbook-pro-fast-enough-for-video-editing/#Practical
Then you talk about running CAD and burning through batteries in 2 hours. As if most folks using CAD software is doing it somewhere without AC power. In any case there are USB-C battery solutions that provide 87W power (hyper juice batteries + USB-C adapter) but as I mentioned earlier, it's a lot easier to use a generator if you're in the field and need heavy compute power for longer periods.
https://www.hypershop.com/collections/power/products/hyperjuice-magic-box-100w-allows-hyperjuice-macbook-battery-packs-to-charge-usb-c-macbook
That 25% of your needs require more than 16GB is possible but AutoDesk disagrees with you on the ability to use CAD on the MBP:
“The MacBook Pro is a very popular device,” says O’Brien. “I think it is a device that has been optimized for running programs like AutoCAD.”
-- Marcus O’Brien, senior product line manager, Autodesk.
https://architosh.com/2016/12/more-relevant-than-ever-autodesk-totally-committed-to-autocad-and-the-mac/
As a note, Autodesk added Touchbar support for AutoCAD 2017. So has Graphisoft in ARCHICAD 21.
But frankly, if I was regularly using CAD heavily in the field I'd throw an 27" iMac into a pelican case and arrange to have a Honda generator. Using any CAD software on a 15" screen is simply painful. Somewhere I still have my 3d connexion space mouse from back when and I had a 30" monitor back then that always seemed too small.
Cutting edge my ass.
I've been around Mac's since the 128. I even worked for a Federal agency at the time that was installing Computervision MCAD hardware, which I help evaluate and spec, based on a 68020 Sun Workstation, and in my entire life since then, I've noted so few CAD programs exclusive to the Mac, that I'm left to believe that BigDann is pushing an inaccurate storyline.
Now I might be wrong about BigDann, though he could certainly clear that up with a bit of concise information about the applications.
I do believe that there are many use cases that require 32GB or more DRAM, but I can't fault Apple for 1) not building a niche workstation out of the MBP, and, 2) waiting until Intel supports LPDDR4 mobile DRAM so they can maintain good battery life. As for the rest of the complaints, including the keyboard, I'm not buying it other that personal preference, or, inability to adapt to loss of legacy I/0.
Apple isn't attempting to compete with Dell or Hp in the PC market. Apple is participating in the x86/x64 market for the benefit of its Mac OS users who need that capability, though certainly Apple has a roadmap where Intel hardware can be deprecated in favor of something else, likely more customizable.
“But your analogy is flawed,” you say, “as content creators will simply go to Windows and produce from there. Comparing the entirety of the farming industry to just a small portion of the computer industry is wrong. It would be better to say, ‘There may not be farm implements anymore, but people can still eat tofu and pasteurized processed cheese-flavored spread.’”
Well, if that’s the world you want.