Apple nixes plans to incorporate under-glass Touch ID in 'iPhone 8,' insider says

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Comments

  • Reply 41 of 90
    slurpyslurpy Posts: 5,190member
    Steve Jobs would of gotten it done!
    I very much doubt someone like you who doesn't understand basic grammar like "should have" would have any insight over what SJ would or would not have "gotten done". 

    Also, that's a moronic sentiment. SJ wasn't some God who could instantly solve any technical challenge. The white iPhone was delayed more than a year under his watch. There's a reason nobody has figured this out yet, there's a million technical challenges to overcome. We'll see if Apple has successfully done so soon. 
    edited August 2017 watto_cobraStrangeDaysRayz2016
  • Reply 42 of 90
    kamilton said:
    Seems to me, given supply chain demands and production timelines, whatever it's going to be, it's already a done deal.  Apple isn't making changes at this late date.  Thread is mute
    Yes, but by slipping it in before September, Kuo gets to take credit for another correct prediction, allowing him to keep a higher score for correct predictions later on.
    watto_cobra
  • Reply 43 of 90
    sricesrice Posts: 115member
    There are huge limitations with Facial Recognition. Let me give you an example.
    I ride motocycles. The law means that I have to wear a crash helmet. In winter I wear a silk balaclava underneath that. Coupled with active tint glasses there is often no bit of my face visible.
    How would facial recog work then eh?

    Now, with touch Id, I can simply stop the bike, take off one glove and touch the phone and I can use the phone. My crash helmet has BT connectivity to my phone.
    You should wear an Apple Watch, your phone will stay unlocked won't it?  Saves you taking your gloves off. 
    watto_cobra
  • Reply 44 of 90
    glynhglynh Posts: 132member
    Steve Jobs would of gotten it done!
    I cannot understand a plausible sentence construction in the English language where the word "of" follows the word "would" without punctuation (e.g., with a comma, wherein it would, of course, be possible).

    Punctuation would, of necessity, render the quoted sentence meaningless. 
    How about proper grammar in the original reading 'would have' instead of would, of as you seem to suggest?

    If I was wearing my 'Grammar Nazi' t-shirt I might have pointed out your overuse of commas.

    But I'm not...so I won't! :)
    watto_cobra
  • Reply 45 of 90
    tallest skiltallest skil Posts: 43,399member
    bobby88 said:
    Don't see facial recognition working on its own at the moment. Quite a few banking apps use Touch ID to login. Not saying they can't change the app but without having prior knowledge of what Apple will be making it will mean these apps will effectively be disabled(is already forgotten my physical password!)until any form of facial recognition is integrated back into said apps. Also from a normal payment point of view, you need to touch the ID button at the same time. It might not be so easy to get your face at the right angle to the screen to unlock/authorise payment
    You're kidding, right? The frameworks for TouchID would simply start accepting facial recognition as the same kind of "key." Apple will probably call it BiometricKit or something. Oh, wait, no; that's their naming convention for developer-editable frameworks… CoreSecurity? Like CoreUI, CoreGraphics, etc.
    foljs said:
    Lastly, the new design still doesn't have a physical home button…
    Also on that point... still don't like it. I really want a hardware 'out' of stuck software. I have a problem with Safari–and only Safari–on my iPhone 6 that I can only attribute to a broken transistor or other hardware problem inside the phone. Every single version of iOS, since the start, has had this problem, and it's only reproducible on my own device. I can browse for five minutes (never timed it, but it's always roughly the same amount of time) before Safari just crashes to the Springboard (or hangs until I have to force it to crash to the Springboard). Reopening it allows me to browse flawlessly thereafter until Safari is removed from the Fast App Switcher, at which point the "crash timer" resets and it will happen again, 100% of the time. A physical home button is needed to save users from stuck apps.
    edited August 2017
  • Reply 46 of 90
    SpamSandwichSpamSandwich Posts: 31,490member
    Ming Chi Kui... LMAO! Make up some new stuff, Ming.
    watto_cobra
  • Reply 47 of 90
    It's amazing to me how little imagination people have. It seems so obvious to me that they made 3D face topology scanning work plenty well enough to make touch ID obsolete. Now you'll be able to use your phone without even thinking about security and you'll get all the same security as touch ID. Apple has made changes like this A MILLION TIMES. How can everyone here not get this?

    Exactly this. The whole reason Apple took so long with the original Touch ID is they wanted to make unlocking seamless so that people would actually use it. There's no way Apple introduces a new technology if it doesn't work as good (or better) than Touch ID.

    It also appears everyone here forgot about all of Apples acquisitions surrounding facial recognition and image processing (LinX, PimeSense, RealFace, Emotient are some of the main ones). Apple is not Samsung. They're not going to use some half-baked face unlock that requires you to hold your phone up to your face or gets fooled by a picture. If you look at the technology and capabilities described by these companies you can get an idea of how face unlock would work with an iPhone.

    - It can identify your face even when part of it is obscured.
    - It can identify your face from a variety of angles, eliminating the need to hold your phone to your face. Even sitting on your desk.
    - It can even tell the difference between identical twins (something RealFace likes to brag about).
    - It doesn't get fooled by pictures. Even images that are placed on a 3D sculpture of your face won't fool it.
    - It can identify you even if you grow a beard (or shave) or you switch from glasses to contacts.

    The way I see this working is that you have your iPhone in your hand and press the screen (3D Touch) to signal that you want it to unlock. Just like you press the Home button. And your iPhone just magically unlocks as if it had Touch ID embedded under the glass. The reason it can do this is simple: If you can see the screen of your iPhone then your iPhone can see your eyes/face. Therefore it's able to identify you and unlock using your face without (and this is the important part) the user having to make any changes to their normal unlocking routine (such as holding your iPhone in front of your face).

    This would also work for Apple Pay. I look at my iPhone screen when using Apple Pay and wait for the check mark inside the circle telling me my "tap" has been accepted. Again, if I can see the screen then it can see me and use my face to identify.
    tmaywatto_cobraStrangeDays
  • Reply 48 of 90
    farmboyfarmboy Posts: 152member
    There is one big reason to forgo having an under glass fingerprint sensor:  It would make the iPhone much harder for a blind person to use. 
    This made it unacceptable.
    I'm not sure I agree. People with sight deficits are, by necessity, quite clever when it comes to figuring out spatial relationships. Locating a space at the bottom of the phone (using the side buttons to first determine orientation) is simple enough, or a space in the middle two knuckle lengths of your index finger up from the bottom, etc. There may indeed be a myriad of other reasons that Touch ID is ruled out, but I don't think this is one of them.
    watto_cobranetmage
  • Reply 49 of 90
    NotsofastNotsofast Posts: 440member
    There is one big reason to forgo having an under glass fingerprint sensor:  It would make the iPhone much harder for a blind person to use. 
    This made it unacceptable.
    Negative grasshopper.  Even sighted people would have no problem rapidly developing muscle memory when picking up the phone as to what area triggers "home" button without looking at it.  Moreover, Apple is master of haptic feedback with its great Taptic engine if feedback is desired. I still find that most people think they are pushing a real button on the iPhone 7 and that's the ultimate test.
    bb-15watto_cobraStrangeDaysnetmage
  • Reply 50 of 90
    slurpyslurpy Posts: 5,190member
    It's amazing to me how little imagination people have. It seems so obvious to me that they made 3D face topology scanning work plenty well enough to make touch ID obsolete. Now you'll be able to use your phone without even thinking about security and you'll get all the same security as touch ID. Apple has made changes like this A MILLION TIMES. How can everyone here not get this?
    There are huge limitations with Facial Recognition. Let me give you an example.
    I ride motocycles. The law means that I have to wear a crash helmet. In winter I wear a silk balaclava underneath that. Coupled with active tint glasses there is often no bit of my face visible.
    How would facial recog work then eh?

    Now, with touch Id, I can simply stop the bike, take off one glove and touch the phone and I can use the phone. My crash helmet has BT connectivity to my phone.


    Sorry, maybe I'm being insane, but if you're going through all the trouble of stopping your bike, and taking off your gloves, would it be THAT much of an issue to just take another half second and enter your passcode in that very specific case? It's like people forget there is a passcode fallback, which, you know, works if you're wearing a helmet, dangling upside down with a skimask, or other such scenario. Yes, there are cases where Face ID won't work (wearing a mask), just like there are cases where Touch ID won't work (wearing gloves). These will NEVER cover 100% of cases, and when they don't entering a passcode isn't going to kill you.  
    StrangeDays
  • Reply 51 of 90
    "Kuo says Apple has "cancelled" plans to embed a fingerprint recognition solution in the next-generation flagship iPhone." It sounds a bit fishy that Apple would just now (a month before release) cancel a major feature of the new iPhone. All features were likely locked-in a year ago. There is no way that Apple would just now be making a major change to their product, which probably had contracts for all components established at least a year ago, and probably is already in production in order to have a stockpile for next month's release.
    watto_cobraStrangeDays
  • Reply 52 of 90
    bb-15bb-15 Posts: 272member
    srice said:
    There are huge limitations with Facial Recognition. Let me give you an example.
    I ride motocycles. The law means that I have to wear a crash helmet. In winter I wear a silk balaclava underneath that. Coupled with active tint glasses there is often no bit of my face visible.
    How would facial recog work then eh?

    Now, with touch Id, I can simply stop the bike, take off one glove and touch the phone and I can use the phone. My crash helmet has BT connectivity to my phone.
    You should wear an Apple Watch, your phone will stay unlocked won't it?  Saves you taking your gloves off. 
    I have an AW and no my iPhone doesn't stay unlocked.
    watto_cobranetmage
  • Reply 53 of 90
    bb-15bb-15 Posts: 272member
    firelock said:
    I was driving the other day with my phone mounted on my dash. I asked Siri to open Google Maps and she replied I would have to unlock my iPhone first. I suddenly realized how convenient facial recognition for authentication would be.
    Where I live in the US a car driver is not allowed to look at their phone (to get directions) even when parked on the side of the road.
    I control Maps with hands free Bluetooth in my car. If Siri says I need to unlock my iPhone, a simple touch will do it even if the phone is in my pocket.
    edited August 2017
  • Reply 54 of 90
    iPhone 8 is due next year. So don’t your hopes too high for this year. It’s going to be the 7s & 7s+ just like after the 4 came the 4s, after the 5 came the 5s and after the 6 came the 6s.
  • Reply 55 of 90
    wizard69wizard69 Posts: 12,891member
    Rayz2016 said:
    It's amazing to me how little imagination people have. It seems so obvious to me that they made 3D face topology scanning work plenty well enough to make touch ID obsolete. Now you'll be able to use your phone without even thinking about security and you'll get all the same security as touch ID. Apple has made changes like this A MILLION TIMES. How can everyone here not get this?
    There are huge limitations with Facial Recognition. Let me give you an example.
    I ride motocycles. The law means that I have to wear a crash helmet. In winter I wear a silk balaclava underneath that. Coupled with active tint glasses there is often no bit of my face visible.
    How would facial recog work then eh?

    Now, with touch Id, I can simply stop the bike, take off one glove and touch the phone and I can use the phone. My crash helmet has BT connectivity to my phone.

    Then you get people on building sites who have to wear protective gear and it is unlawful to remove them outside a building. So tinted safety spec would in many cases stop facial Id from working.

    We shall have to wait and see how it works in reality but I am sure of one thing and that it Facial ID is not something that I want or need. TouchID works and "if it ain't broke, don't fix it".
    Just my thoughts on the topic which aren't worth anything so can be ignored.

    Ignored? I don't think so, but that's probably because I was about to say the exact same thing. 

    I approach an NFC terminal, and rather than touching a button to authorise a payment, now I have to hold up the phone, take off my glasses (or put the on – did I have them in when I took the pic?), take off my hat, maybe have a shave…


    It does seem stupid.     However cell phones are sold based on new features even if you dont need them.  Camera base ID is just a new selling point probably synced up with a big AI push.  
    watto_cobra
  • Reply 56 of 90
    gatorguygatorguy Posts: 21,242member
    jurassic said:
    "Kuo says Apple has "cancelled" plans to embed a fingerprint recognition solution in the next-generation flagship iPhone." It sounds a bit fishy that Apple would just now (a month before release) cancel a major feature of the new iPhone. All features were likely locked-in a year ago. There is no way that Apple would just now be making a major change to their product, which probably had contracts for all components established at least a year ago, and probably is already in production in order to have a stockpile for next month's release.
    Why would it be so impossible to believe that Apple might plan for a feature, but not be able to roll it out for reasons beyond their control? Best laid plans and all that....
  • Reply 57 of 90
    anton zuykovanton zuykov Posts: 1,040member
    Apple has decided against an embedded Touch ID solution for its forthcoming "iPhone 8" handset, according to well-connected analyst Ming-Chi Kuo..
    Oh, for f**k's sake... give me a break!
    Let me fix that. Apparently some interpretor mistranslated what Mr. Kuo actually said.
    Here we go.
    Ming-Chi Kuo: I got a bit creative with my stuff regarding what Apple is going to do later this year. 
    Due to that unfortunate incident that was, I assure you, absolutely accidental, there appears to be a diversion between what I promised, and what will actually happen in reality. So, in order to reconcile the two, I now have to creatively retract my own statements, so I don't look like a completely dishonest person.
    radarthekatwatto_cobraStrangeDays
  • Reply 58 of 90
    mattinozmattinoz Posts: 1,149member
    It's amazing to me how little imagination people have. It seems so obvious to me that they made 3D face topology scanning work plenty well enough to make touch ID obsolete. Now you'll be able to use your phone without even thinking about security and you'll get all the same security as touch ID. Apple has made changes like this A MILLION TIMES. How can everyone here not get this?

    Exactly this. The whole reason Apple took so long with the original Touch ID is they wanted to make unlocking seamless so that people would actually use it. There's no way Apple introduces a new technology if it doesn't work as good (or better) than Touch ID.

    It also appears everyone here forgot about all of Apples acquisitions surrounding facial recognition and image processing (LinX, PimeSense, RealFace, Emotient are some of the main ones). Apple is not Samsung. They're not going to use some half-baked face unlock that requires you to hold your phone up to your face or gets fooled by a picture. If you look at the technology and capabilities described by these companies you can get an idea of how face unlock would work with an iPhone.

    - It can identify your face even when part of it is obscured.
    - It can identify your face from a variety of angles, eliminating the need to hold your phone to your face. Even sitting on your desk.
    - It can even tell the difference between identical twins (something RealFace likes to brag about).
    - It doesn't get fooled by pictures. Even images that are placed on a 3D sculpture of your face won't fool it.
    - It can identify you even if you grow a beard (or shave) or you switch from glasses to contacts.

    The way I see this working is that you have your iPhone in your hand and press the screen (3D Touch) to signal that you want it to unlock. Just like you press the Home button. And your iPhone just magically unlocks as if it had Touch ID embedded under the glass. The reason it can do this is simple: If you can see the screen of your iPhone then your iPhone can see your eyes/face. Therefore it's able to identify you and unlock using your face without (and this is the important part) the user having to make any changes to their normal unlocking routine (such as holding your iPhone in front of your face).

    This would also work for Apple Pay. I look at my iPhone screen when using Apple Pay and wait for the check mark inside the circle telling me my "tap" has been accepted. Again, if I can see the screen then it can see me and use my face to identify.
    Also I think it's worth noting Apple Pay on the watch, which continues to work from a valid unlock until such time as watch can't be sure you are wearing it.
    Same could be applied to phone activate apple pay do a face security check and that code stays valid while the phone is sure I'm still holding it. Given the phone contains a fairly massive touch sensor amougst others that should be to hard.

    Now if camera looses sight of my face pay code is still valid and transaction still works as long as phone is happy its still in my hand.
    Say at drive thru window.

    Could be good for banking apps and other secure apps, they could add a suspend security option to what touchID does now. Which would say fully lock me out of the app so I could keep say adding detials for a transation but it wouldn't let the transaction process until it had a visual an ID agian.

    This is all about lowering friction which in turn means they can make more things like per app even per document locking a thing. Even say multi-user accounts now that the device knows it's been handed from one user to another. 
  • Reply 59 of 90
    mattinozmattinoz Posts: 1,149member
    farmboy said:
    There is one big reason to forgo having an under glass fingerprint sensor:  It would make the iPhone much harder for a blind person to use. 
    This made it unacceptable.
    I'm not sure I agree. People with sight deficits are, by necessity, quite clever when it comes to figuring out spatial relationships. Locating a space at the bottom of the phone (using the side buttons to first determine orientation) is simple enough, or a space in the middle two knuckle lengths of your index finger up from the bottom, etc. There may indeed be a myriad of other reasons that Touch ID is ruled out, but I don't think this is one of them.
    Plus the phone knows exactly who has picked up the phone and could well be set to activate siri listening for key words that trigger a command.
    I'm assuming in this situation "hey siri" is a thing of the past and a whole demain of commands get processed on device without going to servers. Lowering Siri friction as well as unlock friction. Then the only haptic needed is for the phone has been picked up but can't see a face maybe because it's upsidedown which the big power button would tell you as well. 

    Indeed why not just siri listening graphic the new home button. Phone wakes to lock screen, kicks in onboard siri, tap the screen any where thats not a notication control and home screen appears. 
  • Reply 60 of 90
    MarvinMarvin Posts: 14,230moderator
    There are huge limitations with Facial Recognition. Let me give you an example.
    I ride motocycles. The law means that I have to wear a crash helmet. In winter I wear a silk balaclava underneath that. Coupled with active tint glasses there is often no bit of my face visible.
    How would facial recog work then eh?

    Now, with touch Id, I can simply stop the bike, take off one glove and touch the phone and I can use the phone. My crash helmet has BT connectivity to my phone.

    Then you get people on building sites who have to wear protective gear and it is unlawful to remove them outside a building. So tinted safety spec would in many cases stop facial Id from working.
    You don't have to worry, they're going to provide a dongle for naysayers:



    $99.
    tallest skilStrangeDaysRayz2016
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