Criminal lawsuit over iPhone battery slowdowns filed in France, where planned obsolescence...

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  • Reply 61 of 108
    bshankbshank Posts: 163member
    bshank said:
    Which conspiracy is a it? Planned obsolescence? Or slowing down old phones to help them last longer? Both conspiracy theories cannot both be true at the same time.
    But people didn’t know their phones were being slowed down to extend their lifespan. What about those who bought a new phone not knowing that at $79 battery replacement would solve the issue of their slower phone? It’s not like Apple is out there advertising to replace the battery if your software is sluggish.
    People go into Apple stores all the time and buy battery replacements. Even old grannies. If an old granny can bring her phone to the store and buy a new battery any customer can. 
  • Reply 62 of 108
    charlesn said:
    Lithium ion batteries inevitably degrade over time and recharging. If that's planned obsolescence, then someone should sue Michelin in France for manufacturing tires that wear out. That said... while I have no issue with Apple developing this software fix to deal with a degraded battery, it's inexcusable, inexplicable--and just plain stupid from a PR standpoint--to keep that fix a secret until it's discovered outside the company. So Apple has only itself to blame for the flood of lawsuits and bad press that will continue until this latest "Apple is trying to screw you" furor dies down, as it always does. Note to Tim Cook: there is no company the mainstream tech press loves to hate more than Apple, so stop providing fodder for their headlines. This kind of secrecy never ends well for Apple. 

    I do wonder why this battery issue seems to have begun with the 6 series of phones, and whether bigger screens, more powerful computing, etc., have something to do with it. I have seen the shutdown issue on a friend's iPhone 6, and it's really problematic--the phone, on a practical basis, would essentially be unusable were it not for this fix. 
    What if the chips Apple’s silicon team is designing are too powerful and the batteries aren’t big enough to support? Plus users don’t typically have these issues but those phones also have the largest batteries.
  • Reply 63 of 108
    bshank said:
    78Bandit said:
    bshank said:
    lewchenko said:
    I think this could be a turning point for Apple in terms of them losing "trust and integrity" with the general population.

    At a family Christmas visit, where most people have iPhones, this was surpisingly a hot topic - with non techy people.

    And the consensus was that apple played a devious card by not telling them their phone battery was compromised, and thus slowing down the phone. People were angry that they probably upgraded from their 6 recently due it being slow as a snail when they could have just got a new battery. Even worse that you can go to an Apple store and they will test the battery and say its fine even though iOS is slowing down your CPU due to the battery. Thats unforgivable. My family agreed.

    That lack of transparency is gonna cost Apple dearly. I heard family members considering Android (and Ive never heard any of them say this before). Perhaps Apple doesnt understand the level of anger here.

    Apple needs to get some comms out there ASAP or face even more backlash. Its also not transparent that you cant even see easily how many cycles your battery has had. Why hide this info in a private API (it used to be public but they changed it... wonder why!)

    It may well have been a solid technical fix but the way they went about it just reeks.

    At this point, Ive also held off updating my iPhone 7 to 11.2. Not sure I will either. At this point, they have lost my trust. And to be honest, over the years that was worth a lot in $ terms to them. So I hope they find a way to regain it.
    Apple did inform people in the release notes of iOS 10.2.1. You know, those notes meant to be read that people who have no idea what is in their tech never read? Anyway, I hope your family members do change to Android. Good luck to them on their path of self-inflicted problems
    Reposing this from the Korea thread.

    Here's the statement from the release notes:  "It also improves power management during peak workloads to avoid unexpected shutdowns on iPhone."

    How in the world would any reasonable user infer the software is looking for a battery that cannot supply proper voltage and then cutting processing power by up to 60% out of that statement?  That statement could just as easily mean that the software cuts back on background app activity, slightly dims the display, reduces wi-fi & Bluetooth transmit power, or any number of other possibilities during peak workloads to ensure the full processing power of the phone is available to the active application.  Nowhere does it mention throttling or battery issues.  It could just as easily have been unexpected shutdowns due to excessive processor temperatures during high workloads.

    Apple gave a very vague statement that revealed nothing about the underlying identified issue even to users who read the release notes.  It would have been much different if they would have stated they were throttling CPU power in response to inadequate battery output.  That would have put the owners on notice it was a hardware problem that could be eligible for a warranty repair or replacement.
    Regardless it’s not nothing as Apple is being accused of, and what Apple did is solve an issue of shutdowns people bring to the store often. I’d say this was a direct response to the shutdowns. Litigators and complainants would get a lot more mileage trying to prove Apple knew of a “defect” in iPhone 6 gen and did not do anything about it. If that’s true (and I do not believe it is) then Apple would have a problem. I do feel the 1GB of RAM and 16GB base model was short sighted and is the reason older devices are having so many issues. Not a defect, just a decision that was not future looking enough to the processing demands we have in 2017. No conspiracy. Just engineering decisions that did not work out and Apple is trying to solve. People are pissed ask phones not to shut down. Then their phones don’t shut down and they are still pissed. People can’t make up their minds what they want.
    I will agree with you on most of what you said.  I've got a 6 Plus and 1GB RAM is woefully inadequate.  I suspect I've got throttling issues, but I can also tell I have memory limitations as web pages reload almost every time I switch between tabs.  I also think this criminal lawsuit is going nowhere, but the Chicago lawsuit alleging Apple throttled in-warranty devices to avoid having to pay for repairs may have some legs.  You can even see on Geekbench where iPhone 7 devices are experiencing throttling even though none of them are more than 15 months old.  We don't know what percentage charge the phones' batteries were at other than a disclaimer that any phones on "low power mode" were disregarded, but the fact remains Apple's system thinks batteries less than 15 months old are degraded enough to require CPU throttling.

    Given a choice between throttling and random crashes, I'll take throttling.  Even better would have been complete transparency that Apple knew batteries not able to supply the required voltage caused the random shutdown issue and alerted them through a message when it occurred.  That way customers could have been aware they needed to have their battery replaced or insisted Apple do it if it was under warranty or AppleCare.  Apple made a very poor choice when they didn't disclose what they knew and it is fueling conspiracy theories.  It will be up to the courts to determine if they did avoid warranty obligations as a result of this.

    Hopefully Apple learns from this debacle and gives us future devices as reliable as they had through the iPhone 5s.  Reduced runtime as the batteries degrade and somewhat slower performance as new features are introduced is expected, cutting performance an additional 50% on top of that isn't.
    muthuk_vanalingam
  • Reply 64 of 108
    alandail said:
    So Apple fixes an issue where degraded batteries cause unexpected shutdowns and everyone is upset with them for fixing it?

    As the article says, there is no slowdown with fully functioning batteries.

    Instead of suing Apple, customers should be thanking them for fixing the random shutdown issue.
    The issue is transparency ... hello.
    r2d2muthuk_vanalingam
  • Reply 65 of 108
    bshank said:
    bshank said:
    Which conspiracy is a it? Planned obsolescence? Or slowing down old phones to help them last longer? Both conspiracy theories cannot both be true at the same time.
    But people didn’t know their phones were being slowed down to extend their lifespan. What about those who bought a new phone not knowing that at $79 battery replacement would solve the issue of their slower phone? It’s not like Apple is out there advertising to replace the battery if your software is sluggish.
    People go into Apple stores all the time and buy battery replacements. Even old grannies. If an old granny can bring her phone to the store and buy a new battery any customer can. 
    Of course, if you live near an Apple store. My point was that many people don’t know their battery needs to be replaced. Apple needs to be more proactive with messaging. Like on screen notifications that the battery may need to be replaced. It’s like the last time I got my oil changed at my Honda dealership. They told me in 6 months I’ll need new front breaks and soon after that new tires. And when I’m due for an oil change a message pops up on my dashboard telling me so. Same thing with my LG fridge. A light just came on the other day saying the filter needed to be replaced. This is what Apple should be doing.
    78Banditr2d2muthuk_vanalingam
  • Reply 66 of 108
    As usual, the Troll Army has been notified and they are posting here en masse.
    ericthehalfbee
  • Reply 67 of 108
    bshank said:
    bshank said:
    Which conspiracy is a it? Planned obsolescence? Or slowing down old phones to help them last longer? Both conspiracy theories cannot both be true at the same time.
    But people didn’t know their phones were being slowed down to extend their lifespan. What about those who bought a new phone not knowing that at $79 battery replacement would solve the issue of their slower phone? It’s not like Apple is out there advertising to replace the battery if your software is sluggish.
    People go into Apple stores all the time and buy battery replacements. Even old grannies. If an old granny can bring her phone to the store and buy a new battery any customer can. 
    Of course, if you live near an Apple store. My point was that many people don’t know their battery needs to be replaced. 
    Stop telling the opposite of what you already know. You know that Apple warns the users about battery replacement, with a permanent notice, in the Settings app. So, why don’t you tell the truth?

    As long as that notice stays there, no court will condemn Apple.
    edited December 2017
  • Reply 68 of 108
    LOL...these are pointless and frivolous lawsuits that will get thrown out. First of all, what exactly is the standard supposed to be for "slowing down" vs. a brand new phone with a brand new battery? Is it "I personally feel like it's slower"? That's not going to hold up in court. Is it "I ran some speed tests and certain apps or functions are slower when the phone is really cold or the battery is really low on charge"? That's not going to hold up in court. In order to win in court, they're going to need to demonstrate a loss of speed across the board that both significantly compromises the ability to use the phone AND isn't limited to temporary scenarios like Apple is describing. The phones need to be slow on a full charge. They need to be slow regardless of the app or function being used. And this slowness needs to apply to a large percentage of Apple customers, not isolated situations and specific phones.  
    edited December 2017
  • Reply 69 of 108
    “...a maximum prison sentence of two years, a fine of up to 300,000 euros, and 5 percent of the company's profits.”

    Nice scam if you can get it. Screw the Socialists in the EU.
    It's a scam to fine a business for engaging in planned obsolescence is it?  The French have legislated against planned obsolescence and they become Socialists in the EU do they? You have also made disparaging comments about Australia in your past posts.  Complete drongo (look that up in the urban dictionary).
    muthuk_vanalingam
  • Reply 70 of 108
    r2d2r2d2 Posts: 95member
    foggyhill said:
    r2d2 said:

    alandail said:
    So Apple fixes an issue where degraded batteries cause unexpected shutdowns and everyone is upset with them for fixing it?

    As the article says, there is no slowdown with fully functioning batteries.

    Instead of suing Apple, customers should be thanking them for fixing the random shutdown issue.

    Show me where in the last year Apple fully and publicly explained this to people and I’ll agree with you.
    Explaining them that fracking batteries get used up, should they have to. In entitled world, seemingly must be a explained that magic feoesn’t exist and then people will complain anyway cause that’s how people are these days. 

    apple le by babying their users seemingly have made them more prone to this type of things.
    If I understand you correctly, they needed to explain how the upgrade would slow your phone down. They didn’t do that. Simple as that.
  • Reply 71 of 108
    kimberly said:
    alandail said:
    So Apple fixes an issue where degraded batteries cause unexpected shutdowns and everyone is upset with them for fixing it?

    As the article says, there is no slowdown with fully functioning batteries.

    Instead of suing Apple, customers should be thanking them for fixing the random shutdown issue.
    The issue is transparency ... hello.
    Transparency is not a cover for hatred and ignorance.
  • Reply 72 of 108
    r2d2 said:
    steven n. said:
    Honestly, this was just the opposite (though communication was piss poor). It was easy to do a battery upgrade and get full speed back. For those that didn’t want to do that, it kept phones, and batteries, in use longer.

    Apple’s communication on this, however, was atrocious. 
    The problem is most people did not know to replace their battery. Many felt the only recourse was to spend on the phone upgrade.

    Exactly that's the argument, not whether Apple's solution was technically sound. It's not "planned" obsolescence its oppotunistic, intended or not, not that that makes Apple evil, the question will be, could Apple have benefited from illinformed customers noticing a reduction in perfomence wrongly concluding that this was due to their devices being out dated thus purchasing new ones.  

    Passions are high as the issue gets mingled and lost but the above senario is reasonable, if this was Sammy we'd all be reading a very entertaining DED Piece.



    what concerns me though, is that, a very unfortunate and quite damaging narrative is building and yet Nothing from Apple, not even a half baked "Dear customers" letter from Tim, not good.
    muthuk_vanalingam
  • Reply 73 of 108
    bshankbshank Posts: 163member
    78Bandit said:
    bshank said:
    78Bandit said:
    bshank said:
    lewchenko said:
    I think this could be a turning point for Apple in terms of them losing "trust and integrity" with the general population.

    At a family Christmas visit, where most people have iPhones, this was surpisingly a hot topic - with non techy people.

    And the consensus was that apple played a devious card by not telling them their phone battery was compromised, and thus slowing down the phone. People were angry that they probably upgraded from their 6 recently due it being slow as a snail when they could have just got a new battery. Even worse that you can go to an Apple store and they will test the battery and say its fine even though iOS is slowing down your CPU due to the battery. Thats unforgivable. My family agreed.

    That lack of transparency is gonna cost Apple dearly. I heard family members considering Android (and Ive never heard any of them say this before). Perhaps Apple doesnt understand the level of anger here.

    Apple needs to get some comms out there ASAP or face even more backlash. Its also not transparent that you cant even see easily how many cycles your battery has had. Why hide this info in a private API (it used to be public but they changed it... wonder why!)

    It may well have been a solid technical fix but the way they went about it just reeks.

    At this point, Ive also held off updating my iPhone 7 to 11.2. Not sure I will either. At this point, they have lost my trust. And to be honest, over the years that was worth a lot in $ terms to them. So I hope they find a way to regain it.
    Apple did inform people in the release notes of iOS 10.2.1. You know, those notes meant to be read that people who have no idea what is in their tech never read? Anyway, I hope your family members do change to Android. Good luck to them on their path of self-inflicted problems
    Reposing this from the Korea thread.

    Here's the statement from the release notes:  "It also improves power management during peak workloads to avoid unexpected shutdowns on iPhone."

    How in the world would any reasonable user infer the software is looking for a battery that cannot supply proper voltage and then cutting processing power by up to 60% out of that statement?  That statement could just as easily mean that the software cuts back on background app activity, slightly dims the display, reduces wi-fi & Bluetooth transmit power, or any number of other possibilities during peak workloads to ensure the full processing power of the phone is available to the active application.  Nowhere does it mention throttling or battery issues.  It could just as easily have been unexpected shutdowns due to excessive processor temperatures during high workloads.

    Apple gave a very vague statement that revealed nothing about the underlying identified issue even to users who read the release notes.  It would have been much different if they would have stated they were throttling CPU power in response to inadequate battery output.  That would have put the owners on notice it was a hardware problem that could be eligible for a warranty repair or replacement.
    Regardless it’s not nothing as Apple is being accused of, and what Apple did is solve an issue of shutdowns people bring to the store often. I’d say this was a direct response to the shutdowns. Litigators and complainants would get a lot more mileage trying to prove Apple knew of a “defect” in iPhone 6 gen and did not do anything about it. If that’s true (and I do not believe it is) then Apple would have a problem. I do feel the 1GB of RAM and 16GB base model was short sighted and is the reason older devices are having so many issues. Not a defect, just a decision that was not future looking enough to the processing demands we have in 2017. No conspiracy. Just engineering decisions that did not work out and Apple is trying to solve. People are pissed ask phones not to shut down. Then their phones don’t shut down and they are still pissed. People can’t make up their minds what they want.
    I will agree with you on most of what you said.  I've got a 6 Plus and 1GB RAM is woefully inadequate.  I suspect I've got throttling issues, but I can also tell I have memory limitations as web pages reload almost every time I switch between tabs.  I also think this criminal lawsuit is going nowhere, but the Chicago lawsuit alleging Apple throttled in-warranty devices to avoid having to pay for repairs may have some legs.  You can even see on Geekbench where iPhone 7 devices are experiencing throttling even though none of them are more than 15 months old.  We don't know what percentage charge the phones' batteries were at other than a disclaimer that any phones on "low power mode" were disregarded, but the fact remains Apple's system thinks batteries less than 15 months old are degraded enough to require CPU throttling.

    Given a choice between throttling and random crashes, I'll take throttling.  Even better would have been complete transparency that Apple knew batteries not able to supply the required voltage caused the random shutdown issue and alerted them through a message when it occurred.  That way customers could have been aware they needed to have their battery replaced or insisted Apple do it if it was under warranty or AppleCare.  Apple made a very poor choice when they didn't disclose what they knew and it is fueling conspiracy theories.  It will be up to the courts to determine if they did avoid warranty obligations as a result of this.

    Hopefully Apple learns from this debacle and gives us future devices as reliable as they had through the iPhone 5s.  Reduced runtime as the batteries degrade and somewhat slower performance as new features are introduced is expected, cutting performance an additional 50% on top of that isn't.
    My 6 plus had sudden shutdown issues in its first year. Apple replaced the phone 3 times for me until the issue did not occur anymore. Not sure why those in warranty would not have received a fix.
  • Reply 74 of 108
    r2d2 said:
    steven n. said:
    Honestly, this was just the opposite (though communication was piss poor). It was easy to do a battery upgrade and get full speed back. For those that didn’t want to do that, it kept phones, and batteries, in use longer.

    Apple’s communication on this, however, was atrocious. 
    The problem is most people did not know to replace their battery. Many felt the only recourse was to spend on the phone upgrade.

    This is just not true. A permanent notice in the Settings app reminds the user about servicing the battery. As long as that notice stays there no court will condemn Apple.
  • Reply 75 of 108
    It’s like the last time I got my oil changed at my Honda dealership. They told me in 6 months I’ll need new front breaks and soon after that new tires. And when I’m due for an oil change a message pops up on my dashboard telling me so. Same thing with my LG fridge. A light just came on the other day saying the filter needed to be replaced. This is what Apple should be doing.
    Not really the same thing, since both the car and the refrigerator have safety issues related to maintaining the parts (brakes or tires failing, food going bad). I think Apple has done pretty much all they really need to do per batteries and their expected lifespan. The idea that there was "bad messaging" about a fairly obscure power management feature that has very limited use scenarios is a stretch. This whole thing is similar to antenna-gate, where everyone twisted themselves into a pretzel to try and pretend that attenuation was something new to cell phone technology. 
  • Reply 76 of 108
    bshank said:
    bshank said:
    Which conspiracy is a it? Planned obsolescence? Or slowing down old phones to help them last longer? Both conspiracy theories cannot both be true at the same time.
    But people didn’t know their phones were being slowed down to extend their lifespan. What about those who bought a new phone not knowing that at $79 battery replacement would solve the issue of their slower phone? It’s not like Apple is out there advertising to replace the battery if your software is sluggish.
    People go into Apple stores all the time and buy battery replacements. Even old grannies. If an old granny can bring her phone to the store and buy a new battery any customer can. 
    Of course, if you live near an Apple store. My point was that many people don’t know their battery needs to be replaced. 
    Stop telling the opposite of what you already know. You know that Apple warns the users about battery replacement, with a permanent notice, in the Settings app. So, why don’t you tell the truth?

    As long as that notice stays there, no court will condemn Apple.
    There have been numerous complaints of devices being throttled that don't have the warning in the Settings app triggered and pass Genius Bar testing of battery capacity.  It will be up to the legal system to determine if the internal throttling test the user never sees is more aggressive than the battery capacity test that triggers the warning and fails at the Genius Bar test.  To the extent Apple throttles devices with no notification to the user (and especially if the device passes the Genius Bar test while being throttled) the courts can hold Apple accountable.
    r2d2muthuk_vanalingam
  • Reply 77 of 108
    kimberly said:
    alandail said:
    So Apple fixes an issue where degraded batteries cause unexpected shutdowns and everyone is upset with them for fixing it?

    As the article says, there is no slowdown with fully functioning batteries.

    Instead of suing Apple, customers should be thanking them for fixing the random shutdown issue.
    The issue is transparency ... hello.
    Transparency is not a cover for hatred and ignorance.
    Transparency is not a cover for hatred and ignorance? What has that statement got to do with the price of fish in China?  This whole throttle-gate deal that has spawned numerous law suits and started several threads on AI (that I know of) wouldn't have got out of the blocks if Apple had been TRANSPARENT at the time ... hello.  
    r2d2muthuk_vanalingam
  • Reply 78 of 108
    The answer at this point is simple. For one, the software should prompt the user that the battery has degraded to a point where the battery can no longer run the "certain processes" at full speed. Second, it should then auto turn on the functionality to slow down the processes, as current, but have the option to toggle this setting off or on. Users should be given the option in the dialog box above to turn off slowing down the processes. If they choose to turn it off then, or later, then the user should be given another prompt that turning off this feature can cause the phone to shutdown/restart due to the degraded battery. Then confirm you want to continue. Apple then has on record that people specificall chose to turn this feature off. Third, there should be some kind of icon depicting that the battery is in a degraded state. Maybe changing the icon for the battery or making it a different color etc, so its front and center for the user that their device's battery has reached a critical point.
    muthuk_vanalingam
  • Reply 79 of 108
    The real shame is that this is shaping up to be the biggest controversy in Apple's history, and yet the year of the oh so cute X, wonder what will be remembered more, edge to edge and faceID or Throttlegate. 
  • Reply 80 of 108
    Good luck with trying to prove planned obsolescence with Apple, what with their supporting older devices the longest in the industry with iOS updates and trying to prolong the life of devices with older, defective batteries.

    ON the flip side, how is it even possible for Android to sell any devices in France, given the fact the vast majority never get updates after the first/second year (and many are sold with a 1-2 year old version installed, which will NEVER get updates the day after you bought it).
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