Criminal lawsuit over iPhone battery slowdowns filed in France, where planned obsolescence...

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  • Reply 81 of 108
    78Bandit said:
    There have been numerous complaints of devices being throttled that don't have the warning in the Settings app triggered and pass Genius Bar testing of battery capacity. 
    Numerous? You need a lot more than that to go to court and win. You basically need to prove that it happens to a significant majority of iPhone users, and that the throttling is constant, not something that only happens under high loads, low battery, or extreme temperature etc.
    edited December 2017
  • Reply 82 of 108
    78Bandit said:
    bshank said:
    lewchenko said:
    I think this could be a turning point for Apple in terms of them losing "trust and integrity" with the general population.

    At a family Christmas visit, where most people have iPhones, this was surpisingly a hot topic - with non techy people.

    And the consensus was that apple played a devious card by not telling them their phone battery was compromised, and thus slowing down the phone. People were angry that they probably upgraded from their 6 recently due it being slow as a snail when they could have just got a new battery. Even worse that you can go to an Apple store and they will test the battery and say its fine even though iOS is slowing down your CPU due to the battery. Thats unforgivable. My family agreed.

    That lack of transparency is gonna cost Apple dearly. I heard family members considering Android (and Ive never heard any of them say this before). Perhaps Apple doesnt understand the level of anger here.

    Apple needs to get some comms out there ASAP or face even more backlash. Its also not transparent that you cant even see easily how many cycles your battery has had. Why hide this info in a private API (it used to be public but they changed it... wonder why!)

    It may well have been a solid technical fix but the way they went about it just reeks.

    At this point, Ive also held off updating my iPhone 7 to 11.2. Not sure I will either. At this point, they have lost my trust. And to be honest, over the years that was worth a lot in $ terms to them. So I hope they find a way to regain it.
    Apple did inform people in the release notes of iOS 10.2.1. You know, those notes meant to be read that people who have no idea what is in their tech never read? Anyway, I hope your family members do change to Android. Good luck to them on their path of self-inflicted problems
    Reposing this from the Korea thread.

    Here's the statement from the release notes:  "It also improves power management during peak workloads to avoid unexpected shutdowns on iPhone."

    How in the world would any reasonable user infer the software is looking for a battery that cannot supply proper voltage and then cutting processing power by up to 60% out of that statement?  That statement could just as easily mean that the software cuts back on background app activity, slightly dims the display, reduces wi-fi & Bluetooth transmit power, or any number of other possibilities during peak workloads to ensure the full processing power of the phone is available to the active application.  Nowhere does it mention throttling or battery issues.  It could just as easily have been unexpected shutdowns due to excessive processor temperatures during high workloads.

    Apple gave a very vague statement that revealed nothing about the underlying identified issue even to users who read the release notes.  It would have been much different if they would have stated they were throttling CPU power in response to inadequate battery output.  That would have put the owners on notice it was a hardware problem that could be eligible for a warranty repair or replacement.
    This. And who the heck (besides tech nerds) read the release notes to software updates? The idea that it’s the users fault for not reading 10.2.1 release notes and understanding the vague statement is ridiculous. Rene Ritchie at iMore apologized for their site not covering this more or better explaining it but it’s not the job of him or John Gruber or any other Apple centric site to explain this. That belongs to Phil Schiller and the Apple press office.
    Apple’s responsibility is not to issue press releases against users’ problems, but to provide service and support. And the user is expected to claim sevice and support for slowness of his iPhone. Apple has established service and support channels as imposed by consumer and trade laws. Press rooms and press releases are not part of these channels and no one can claim that. If the buyer’s specific case requires giving more information to the buyer then this information is provided during service operation. Apple also publishes technical notes in its support site. Apple also warns the user about servicing the battery in the Settings app. If the user instead pushes like “wow! what if I don’t service my battery then?” Apple is not under the obligation to respond to that and to issue “press releases” for that...
  • Reply 83 of 108
    bshank said:
    78Bandit said:
    bshank said:
    78Bandit said:
    bshank said:
    lewchenko said:
    I think this could be a turning point for Apple in terms of them losing "trust and integrity" with the general population.

    At a family Christmas visit, where most people have iPhones, this was surpisingly a hot topic - with non techy people.

    And the consensus was that apple played a devious card by not telling them their phone battery was compromised, and thus slowing down the phone. People were angry that they probably upgraded from their 6 recently due it being slow as a snail when they could have just got a new battery. Even worse that you can go to an Apple store and they will test the battery and say its fine even though iOS is slowing down your CPU due to the battery. Thats unforgivable. My family agreed.

    That lack of transparency is gonna cost Apple dearly. I heard family members considering Android (and Ive never heard any of them say this before). Perhaps Apple doesnt understand the level of anger here.

    Apple needs to get some comms out there ASAP or face even more backlash. Its also not transparent that you cant even see easily how many cycles your battery has had. Why hide this info in a private API (it used to be public but they changed it... wonder why!)

    It may well have been a solid technical fix but the way they went about it just reeks.

    At this point, Ive also held off updating my iPhone 7 to 11.2. Not sure I will either. At this point, they have lost my trust. And to be honest, over the years that was worth a lot in $ terms to them. So I hope they find a way to regain it.
    Apple did inform people in the release notes of iOS 10.2.1. You know, those notes meant to be read that people who have no idea what is in their tech never read? Anyway, I hope your family members do change to Android. Good luck to them on their path of self-inflicted problems
    Reposing this from the Korea thread.

    Here's the statement from the release notes:  "It also improves power management during peak workloads to avoid unexpected shutdowns on iPhone."

    How in the world would any reasonable user infer the software is looking for a battery that cannot supply proper voltage and then cutting processing power by up to 60% out of that statement?  That statement could just as easily mean that the software cuts back on background app activity, slightly dims the display, reduces wi-fi & Bluetooth transmit power, or any number of other possibilities during peak workloads to ensure the full processing power of the phone is available to the active application.  Nowhere does it mention throttling or battery issues.  It could just as easily have been unexpected shutdowns due to excessive processor temperatures during high workloads.

    Apple gave a very vague statement that revealed nothing about the underlying identified issue even to users who read the release notes.  It would have been much different if they would have stated they were throttling CPU power in response to inadequate battery output.  That would have put the owners on notice it was a hardware problem that could be eligible for a warranty repair or replacement.
    Regardless it’s not nothing as Apple is being accused of, and what Apple did is solve an issue of shutdowns people bring to the store often. I’d say this was a direct response to the shutdowns. Litigators and complainants would get a lot more mileage trying to prove Apple knew of a “defect” in iPhone 6 gen and did not do anything about it. If that’s true (and I do not believe it is) then Apple would have a problem. I do feel the 1GB of RAM and 16GB base model was short sighted and is the reason older devices are having so many issues. Not a defect, just a decision that was not future looking enough to the processing demands we have in 2017. No conspiracy. Just engineering decisions that did not work out and Apple is trying to solve. People are pissed ask phones not to shut down. Then their phones don’t shut down and they are still pissed. People can’t make up their minds what they want.
    I will agree with you on most of what you said.  I've got a 6 Plus and 1GB RAM is woefully inadequate.  I suspect I've got throttling issues, but I can also tell I have memory limitations as web pages reload almost every time I switch between tabs.  I also think this criminal lawsuit is going nowhere, but the Chicago lawsuit alleging Apple throttled in-warranty devices to avoid having to pay for repairs may have some legs.  You can even see on Geekbench where iPhone 7 devices are experiencing throttling even though none of them are more than 15 months old.  We don't know what percentage charge the phones' batteries were at other than a disclaimer that any phones on "low power mode" were disregarded, but the fact remains Apple's system thinks batteries less than 15 months old are degraded enough to require CPU throttling.

    Given a choice between throttling and random crashes, I'll take throttling.  Even better would have been complete transparency that Apple knew batteries not able to supply the required voltage caused the random shutdown issue and alerted them through a message when it occurred.  That way customers could have been aware they needed to have their battery replaced or insisted Apple do it if it was under warranty or AppleCare.  Apple made a very poor choice when they didn't disclose what they knew and it is fueling conspiracy theories.  It will be up to the courts to determine if they did avoid warranty obligations as a result of this.

    Hopefully Apple learns from this debacle and gives us future devices as reliable as they had through the iPhone 5s.  Reduced runtime as the batteries degrade and somewhat slower performance as new features are introduced is expected, cutting performance an additional 50% on top of that isn't.
    My 6 plus had sudden shutdown issues in its first year. Apple replaced the phone 3 times for me until the issue did not occur anymore. Not sure why those in warranty would not have received a fix.
    Do you think you may have had a string of batteries that couldn't provide adequate power to the processor under full load?  That is exactly the situation Apple is being accused of covering up with their throttling "feature".  By throttling devices without notifying the user there was a hardware problem they would have no idea they needed to get a warranty fix.  By keeping it hidden Apple may have avoided having to repair or replace an untold number of devices that had the exact same hardware failure you possibly experienced.

    I would have no issue with Apple telling users "Hey, we pushed the design limit a little to far and we will need to reduce your device's performance unless you get a new battery.  If your phone is under warranty or AppleCare contract there will be no charge.  We will do our best to ensure future iPhones work as reliably as our customers have come to expect."
    muthuk_vanalingam
  • Reply 84 of 108
    bshank said:
    Which conspiracy is a it? Planned obsolescence? Or slowing down old phones to help them last longer? Both conspiracy theories cannot both be true at the same time.
    But people didn’t know their phones were being slowed down to extend their lifespan. What about those who bought a new phone not knowing that at $79 battery replacement would solve the issue of their slower phone? It’s not like Apple is out there advertising to replace the battery if your software is sluggish.
    For one, If one went to the genius bar they would be able to see if there was an issue with the battery. If not, the alternative would have been that the phone frequently crashes and the person gets frustrated. That point they are in the same boat. Either buy new iPhone or leave Apple under frustration thinking its a bad device/software.   

    I think everyone forgets that this crops up after Warranty and even Apple Care has expired. How long do people expect their device to last at peak performance? Devices aren't meant to last forever and Apple is trying to extend the longevity as long as possible. Go to Android and you will see your useful service life cut in half or more, compared to an iPhone, since older Android devices frequently can't run newer OS versions for long.   



  • Reply 85 of 108
    kimberly said:
    kimberly said:
    alandail said:
    So Apple fixes an issue where degraded batteries cause unexpected shutdowns and everyone is upset with them for fixing it?

    As the article says, there is no slowdown with fully functioning batteries.

    Instead of suing Apple, customers should be thanking them for fixing the random shutdown issue.
    The issue is transparency ... hello.
    Transparency is not a cover for hatred and ignorance.
    Transparency is not a cover for hatred and ignorance? What has that statement got to do with the price of fish in China?  This whole throttle-gate deal that has spawned numerous law suits and started several threads on AI (that I know of) wouldn't have got out of the blocks if Apple had been TRANSPARENT at the time ... hello.  
    Apple is transparent. Service your battery as you’ve been warned by your Settings app.
  • Reply 86 of 108

    kimberly said:
    This whole throttle-gate deal that has spawned numerous law suits and started several threads on AI (that I know of) wouldn't have got out of the blocks if Apple had been TRANSPARENT at the time ... hello.  
    Throttle-gate is the same baloney as antenna-gate. Was cell phone attenuation something unique to the iPhone? No. But people pretended that it was. Are iPhone batteries the only ones that age and can have performance issues as a result? No. But people are pretending that they do. Apple is supposed to apologize for technical issues that exist within every phone on the planet.
  • Reply 87 of 108

    78Bandit said:
    bshank said:
    bshank said:
    Which conspiracy is a it? Planned obsolescence? Or slowing down old phones to help them last longer? Both conspiracy theories cannot both be true at the same time.
    But people didn’t know their phones were being slowed down to extend their lifespan. What about those who bought a new phone not knowing that at $79 battery replacement would solve the issue of their slower phone? It’s not like Apple is out there advertising to replace the battery if your software is sluggish.
    People go into Apple stores all the time and buy battery replacements. Even old grannies. If an old granny can bring her phone to the store and buy a new battery any customer can. 
    Of course, if you live near an Apple store. My point was that many people don’t know their battery needs to be replaced. 
    Stop telling the opposite of what you already know. You know that Apple warns the users about battery replacement, with a permanent notice, in the Settings app. So, why don’t you tell the truth?

    As long as that notice stays there, no court will condemn Apple.
    There have been numerous complaints of devices being throttled that don't have the warning in the Settings app triggered and pass Genius Bar testing of battery capacity.  It will be up to the legal system to determine if the internal throttling test the user never sees is more aggressive than the battery capacity test that triggers the warning and fails at the Genius Bar test.  To the extent Apple throttles devices with no notification to the user (and especially if the device passes the Genius Bar test while being throttled) the courts can hold Apple accountable.
    Since when throttling devices has been a crime or breach of contract? 

    Is there any criminal law that defines throttling as a crime or did anyone sign a contract about not throttling a smartphone yet?
    edited December 2017
  • Reply 88 of 108
    r2d2 said:
    steven n. said:
    Honestly, this was just the opposite (though communication was piss poor). It was easy to do a battery upgrade and get full speed back. For those that didn’t want to do that, it kept phones, and batteries, in use longer.

    Apple’s communication on this, however, was atrocious. 
    The problem is most people did not know to replace their battery. Many felt the only recourse was to spend on the phone upgrade.

    This is just not true. A permanent notice in the Settings app reminds the user about servicing the battery. As long as that notice stays there no court will condemn Apple.
    To a normal non techi person a degraded battery should have nothing to do with the speed of the device, even though technically that's obviously not true, as the condition of the battery severely affected iPhones making them crash, Apple then came up with a very sound and cool ;) solution of throttling the device to avoid the much worse situation of crashing, this however is not the question at hand, the question at hand is, what would a normal non techi person who doesn't know this likely think, would they say " oh my phone is sluggish that new throttling feature must have kicked in to prevent my phone from exploding or crashing I should probably get a new battery" Or would say "after downloading the new iOS my phone has gotten lass snappy ... Hmmm, I should probably get the new one, now lest see 8, 8+ or X"  
  • Reply 89 of 108

    78Bandit said:
    bshank said:
    bshank said:
    Which conspiracy is a it? Planned obsolescence? Or slowing down old phones to help them last longer? Both conspiracy theories cannot both be true at the same time.
    But people didn’t know their phones were being slowed down to extend their lifespan. What about those who bought a new phone not knowing that at $79 battery replacement would solve the issue of their slower phone? It’s not like Apple is out there advertising to replace the battery if your software is sluggish.
    People go into Apple stores all the time and buy battery replacements. Even old grannies. If an old granny can bring her phone to the store and buy a new battery any customer can. 
    Of course, if you live near an Apple store. My point was that many people don’t know their battery needs to be replaced. 
    Stop telling the opposite of what you already know. You know that Apple warns the users about battery replacement, with a permanent notice, in the Settings app. So, why don’t you tell the truth?

    As long as that notice stays there, no court will condemn Apple.
    There have been numerous complaints of devices being throttled that don't have the warning in the Settings app triggered and pass Genius Bar testing of battery capacity.  It will be up to the legal system to determine if the internal throttling test the user never sees is more aggressive than the battery capacity test that triggers the warning and fails at the Genius Bar test.  To the extent Apple throttles devices with no notification to the user (and especially if the device passes the Genius Bar test while being throttled) the courts can hold Apple accountable.
    Yeah. Such things happen...

    Thanks for taking your time to remind us about such anecdotal things.
    Always happy to oblige.

    Just curious though.  You seem to be absolutely insistent that the warning in the Settings app is 100% reliable in notifying the user their battery is not performing up to specification when the phone starts being throttled.  Any proof as to how the algorithms actually work to refute the numerous customers who have said their phones were throttled without notice?  Are you positive the internal throttling test is identical to the battery capacity test?
    edited December 2017 muthuk_vanalingam
  • Reply 90 of 108
    78Bandit said:

    78Bandit said:
    bshank said:
    bshank said:
    Which conspiracy is a it? Planned obsolescence? Or slowing down old phones to help them last longer? Both conspiracy theories cannot both be true at the same time.
    But people didn’t know their phones were being slowed down to extend their lifespan. What about those who bought a new phone not knowing that at $79 battery replacement would solve the issue of their slower phone? It’s not like Apple is out there advertising to replace the battery if your software is sluggish.
    People go into Apple stores all the time and buy battery replacements. Even old grannies. If an old granny can bring her phone to the store and buy a new battery any customer can. 
    Of course, if you live near an Apple store. My point was that many people don’t know their battery needs to be replaced. 
    Stop telling the opposite of what you already know. You know that Apple warns the users about battery replacement, with a permanent notice, in the Settings app. So, why don’t you tell the truth?

    As long as that notice stays there, no court will condemn Apple.
    There have been numerous complaints of devices being throttled that don't have the warning in the Settings app triggered and pass Genius Bar testing of battery capacity.  It will be up to the legal system to determine if the internal throttling test the user never sees is more aggressive than the battery capacity test that triggers the warning and fails at the Genius Bar test.  To the extent Apple throttles devices with no notification to the user (and especially if the device passes the Genius Bar test while being throttled) the courts can hold Apple accountable.
    Yeah. Such things happen...

    Thanks for taking your time to remind us about such anecdotal things.
    Always happy to oblige.

    Just curious though.  You seem to be absolutely insistent that the warning in the Settings app is 100% reliable in notifying the user their battery is not performing up to specification when the phone starts being throttled.  Any proof as to how the algorithms actually work to refute the numerous customers who have said their phones were throttled without notice?  Are you positive the internal throttling test is identical to the battery capacity test?
    If you have engineering proofs supporting that, send an Amicus Curiae to the court.

    From consumer law’s perspective, Apple is acting correctly by this warning. Anyone claiming the opposite is under the burden of proof.
    SpamSandwich
  • Reply 91 of 108
    MplsPMplsP Posts: 1,577member
    Even though this isn't planned obsolescence, the fact that Apple did it without telling people could mean the courts interpreted it as such. Once again, a little bit of transparency would have gone a long way...

  • Reply 92 of 108
    r2d2 said:

    The problem is most people did not know to replace their battery. Many felt the only recourse was to spend on the phone upgrade.

    This is just not true. A permanent notice in the Settings app reminds the user about servicing the battery. As long as that notice stays there no court will condemn Apple.
    Looked, don’t know what permanent warning you,re talking about because I don’t have one. Please post what it says on your phone.
    muthuk_vanalingam
  • Reply 93 of 108
    SoliSoli Posts: 9,208member
    r2d2 said:
    r2d2 said:

    The problem is most people did not know to replace their battery. Many felt the only recourse was to spend on the phone upgrade.

    This is just not true. A permanent notice in the Settings app reminds the user about servicing the battery. As long as that notice stays there no court will condemn Apple.
    Looked, don’t know what permanent warning you,re talking about because I don’t have one. Please post what it says on your phone.
    For the millionth time since this has come to light, if you have no such message under Settings » Battery it means you have no worn battery that would cause Apple to have taken reasonable action to keep your device working longer than otherwise would be the case had they done nothing.

    If you haven't yet seen this link it means you're not paying attention.

    edited December 2017
  • Reply 94 of 108
    AI_lias said:
    asdasd said:
    Who would they jail?
    Let's assume they find a smoking gun, an e-mail where one person says to the other: let's slow down the CPU, and we'll shoot two birds with one stone: fix the unexpected shutdowns, and at the same time, if the phone slows down noticeably, the person is more likely to be nudged towards buying a new phone, then those people could go do jail. But you already knew that executives can be held personally responsible, right?
    100% certain there is no such email because Apple didn't do it for the second reason.
    edited December 2017
  • Reply 95 of 108
    Apple is transparent. Service your battery as you’ve been warned by your Settings app.
    No such warning here. Stop assuming that everyone has this so called warning.

    muthuk_vanalingam
  • Reply 96 of 108
    After I got an iPhone 7, my iPhone 6 just sat for about 6 months.
    I plugged it, hoping to wipe it and either sell it or use it like an iPod Touch.
    However. it couldn't even charge enough to boot up. It stopped charging altogether.


    How long did you leave it on charge for. You do realise even when turned off a device, any device, will still use power with the battery connected and therefore drain the battery? Also given the nature of Lithium batteries the idea you can simply plug it in and it will go is not true at all. In fact a drained iPhone will not turn on until it is around 10% charged from flat. That’s around about 30 minutes because it won’t be a fast charge.
    I let it set overnight.
  • Reply 97 of 108
    bshank said:
    bshank said:
    Which conspiracy is a it? Planned obsolescence? Or slowing down old phones to help them last longer? Both conspiracy theories cannot both be true at the same time.
    But people didn’t know their phones were being slowed down to extend their lifespan. What about those who bought a new phone not knowing that at $79 battery replacement would solve the issue of their slower phone? It’s not like Apple is out there advertising to replace the battery if your software is sluggish.
    People go into Apple stores all the time and buy battery replacements. Even old grannies. If an old granny can bring her phone to the store and buy a new battery any customer can. 
    Of course, if you live near an Apple store. My point was that many people don’t know their battery needs to be replaced. 
    Stop telling the opposite of what you already know. You know that Apple warns the users about battery replacement, with a permanent notice, in the Settings app. So, why don’t you tell the truth?

    As long as that notice stays there, no court will condemn Apple.
    Oh please how many people know to go to the settings to see if there is a notice. And don’t give me it was in release notes. The average consumer doesn’t read release notes and Apple knows this.
    r2d2muthuk_vanalingam
  • Reply 98 of 108
    Soli said:
    r2d2 said:

    Looked, don’t know what permanent warning you,re talking about because I don’t have one. Please post what it says on your phone.
    For the millionth time since this has come to light, if you have no such message under Settings » Battery it means you have no worn battery that would cause Apple to have taken reasonable action to keep your device working longer than otherwise would be the case had they done nothing.

    If you haven't yet seen this link it means you're not paying attention.

    Apparently, that’s not always the case.
    muthuk_vanalingam
  • Reply 99 of 108
    r2d2 said:
    Apple is transparent. Service your battery as you’ve been warned by your Settings app.
    No such warning here. Stop assuming that everyone has this so called warning.

    If you have no such warning but you experience slowness or other troubles then your place is Genius Bar or any authorized service provider.
  • Reply 100 of 108

    bshank said:
    bshank said:
    Which conspiracy is a it? Planned obsolescence? Or slowing down old phones to help them last longer? Both conspiracy theories cannot both be true at the same time.
    But people didn’t know their phones were being slowed down to extend their lifespan. What about those who bought a new phone not knowing that at $79 battery replacement would solve the issue of their slower phone? It’s not like Apple is out there advertising to replace the battery if your software is sluggish.
    People go into Apple stores all the time and buy battery replacements. Even old grannies. If an old granny can bring her phone to the store and buy a new battery any customer can. 
    Of course, if you live near an Apple store. My point was that many people don’t know their battery needs to be replaced. 
    Stop telling the opposite of what you already know. You know that Apple warns the users about battery replacement, with a permanent notice, in the Settings app. So, why don’t you tell the truth?

    As long as that notice stays there, no court will condemn Apple.
    Oh please how many people know to go to the settings to see if there is a notice. And don’t give me it was in release notes. The average consumer doesn’t read release notes and Apple knows this.
    People are expected to claim support with established and legal channels. Those are Genius Bar and authorized service providers. They may not know how to use the Settings app but they should know how to apply for support.
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