First look: Apple's new 9.7-inch iPad with Apple Pencil support

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  • Reply 61 of 102
    tmaytmay Posts: 6,329member
    mike54 said:
    Not impressed. A more recent CPU, but not the latest. Still has bluetooth 4.2. How much RAM? Apple Pencil and keyboard from Apple still very expensive. And no pointer support. So the only main difference is Apple Pencil support (CPU upgrade is a given). And how about a redesign to make it more rugged for schools? I expect more from this highly profitable company.
    The previous generation CPU is appropriate to keep down bill of materials costs.  So, makes sense.

    I’ll bet the RAM is matched to the CPU.  3GB for the A10 Fusion.  Apple likely knows best.  So, makes sense.

    On the subject of no pointer support, well, it’s a touch screen interface.  Tablets are designed for a different user interaction paradigm.  So, makes sense.

    No need to ruggedize the device as there are perfectly suitable cases to protect it.  Why have that capability built into the device, necessitating a whole new engineering effort and separate SKUs.  So, as is makes sense.

    Making sense in their design, engineering, and marketing is what I expect from any company.  Apple is one of few that deliver.


    The arguments against "pointer support" on the iPad are primarily ideological rather than technical.   The fact is:  iOS was created by stripping that support from MacOS.  And, that was done because it was simply not needed on a tiny 3.5" iPhone screen that valued CPU/battery efficiency above all else. 

    Today, (iPad) screens are now the size of laptop screens and the processors that drive them are as powerful (or more!) than many laptop processors  So, the technical reasons for keeping iPads cursorless are fast fading away.   And, more importantly, it is painting Apple into an "also ran" corner -- which is becoming acutely obvious in the education market where they are being overrun with Chromebooks.   An article in CNBC said it well:

    "Venture capitalist Gene Munster said iPad is strongest in grades kindergarten through fifth grade while Chromebooks are more popular among older students in middle and high school, when activities like essays and spreadsheets come into play."

    Very simply, a cursorless iPad with only a touchscreen interface is mostly restricted to play and creative / artistic pursuits.  While it can do some limited serious work like word processing and spreadsheets, it is not well suited to those tasks. To perform those tasks well you need a high quality external keyboard with a mouse or a touchpad.  The iPad has the keyboard -- now it needs to the touchpad/mouse as well.

    If Apple is to remain competitive in markets such as education they have three choices:
    1)  Give the iPad a cursor
    2)  Produce a sub $500 MacBook
    3)  Produce a "SafariBook"

    Of the three, the first is the easiest and will produce the best overall product.  (And frankly is probably the only viable solution)
    Despite the screams of anguish from the ideological elite that it's a dreaded "H Y B R I D", adding a cursor to the iPad takes NOTHING away from the iPad.  Like split screen, an external keyboard and a file system, it just adds to its power and functionality...

    Frankly, I think if Steve were still with us the iPad would have had a cursor long ago -- because Steve was not constrained by ideology, biases and convention.   And frankly, he wouldn't accept "also ran".  Instead he made every product the best he could make it without unnecessary compromise.
    I doubt that cursor support in iOS is primarily idealogical, though I would agree this it is in Mac OS, and for good reason. 

    I suspect that Apple has cursor driven apps running in their labs, but not yet meeting their standards for UX, at least not enough to drive an integration of the entire ecosystem of apps and developers. 

    More to the point, there needs to be a keyboard with a track pad to deliver that cursor, not a mouse, and it needs to be superior to the last keyboard cover; not a trivial engineering challenge. On top of that, it needs to be inexpensive for education, and even the current keyboard cover is a factor of three too expensive.

    Apple is never going to be able to compete on price with Chromebook, that's just a fact, yet I see plenty of posters, and various analysts stating that is exactly what Apple must do for the education market. I'm not seeing that as a viable business model for Apple to have razor thin margins and still not be able to compete with Chromebooks.


    StrangeDayswatto_cobra
  • Reply 62 of 102
    GeorgeBMacGeorgeBMac Posts: 11,421member
    bookemd said:
    AJ MAC25 said:
    Maybe I am just old, but for me, the magic of Apple died with Steve. 
    Yep must be. Nostalgia is a helluva drug. 
    No it did, as much as hate to admit it. Today more than ever his combative style with the media and others in Silicon valley is severely missed.
    Nope. Being combative wasn’t Apple’s magic. Great new product is the magic, and Apple is delivering. The X, iPad Pro, Watch Series 3, AirPods, rMBP, all the finest computing devices I’ve ever owned. iMP looks amazing too. My friend’s HomePod sounds great and I can’t wait to get one when budget permits. 
    True...  It has always been about the product -- not the sales pitch (or lack of).
    Actually, Steve is widely misunderstood and mischaracterized:   He stood firmly and resolutely behind his products and refused to accept second best.  If an employee didn't share his commitment he didn't stay an employee for very long.  Likewise, he pushed back against those unfairly  denigrating his product.   But that doesn't make him combative.  If you watch virtually any interview of him you find him calm and reasonable.  In fact, he was acutely aware of his (and Apple's) limitations and failings.  But, he didn't tolerate BS.  He was a straight shooter.
    ....  Some people call that "combative".

    Here's the so called "combative" Steve Jobs


    edited March 2018 canukstormpatchythepirateStrangeDayswatto_cobra
  • Reply 63 of 102
    netmagenetmage Posts: 314member
    Soli said:

    it seems clear to me that it wouldn't be less expensive to only use the latest chips in the iPhone X, or one would have to have a reason why Apple is willing to pay a extra for a slower and less capable SoCs.
    Did you forget the A11 is also in the 8/8 Plus?
    watto_cobra
  • Reply 64 of 102
    jcs2305jcs2305 Posts: 1,337member
    dunks said:
    I like the new 9.7" iPad and am glad to see it get pencil support. I wish it had a laminated display though as it's noticeably thicker (and heavier) than my current iPad Air 2. I'd take that trade off for additional battery life, but it's clear they started making them thicker again as an up-sell to the iPad Pro line. For that I might as well stick with my Air 2.

    The Pros seem outrageously priced at this point particularly in international markets. Sure you get a better display, but I'm not sure it's a case of twice the experience for twice the price.

    I like the idea of the Apple pencil, but it's much too long. Two thirds of its current length would feel so much better in the hand. If you can top up the charge by plugging it in for a minute the battery life is more or less moot.
    It's thicker because the battery is larger NOT for an up sell. My god man!

    I am not sure about international markets but the Ipad pro is priced $150.00 more that the Air 2 when it was released at 499.00 back in 2014.  So I am not sure where you get 2x the price from? Again I can't speak for international markets. I am in the USA..  If you have the Air 2 the speakers, ProMotion display, 64gb starting storage  and extra size of the 10.5 is worth $150.00..IMHO. I thought it was a bit to expensive initially as well, but once I had a chance to use the 10.5 pro I didn't look back.
    canukstormsandormbenz1962
  • Reply 65 of 102
    NotsofastNotsofast Posts: 450member
    AJ MAC25 said:
    Maybe I am just old, but for me, the magic of Apple died with Steve. 
    It's a little bit that you are old, but mainly that Tim Cook is just so mediocre at doing these presentations.  It's just not his strength the way it was with Steve Jobs. Tim is low energy and can't deliver the new stuffnetrox said:
    "A new feature known as Smart Annotations is currently in beta and allows users to write on a document. Unlike similar PDF features, Smart Annotations move as your document moves." I am not understanding that at all. I can write on PDF files on iPad Pro (IBook and GoodNotes) and the annotations will also be updated as well.
    One of the key differences is that the annotation is sticky with the text as you move it around.  You can see it demonstrated on the video.  
  • Reply 66 of 102
    canukstormcanukstorm Posts: 2,700member
    mike54 said:
    Not impressed. A more recent CPU, but not the latest. Still has bluetooth 4.2. How much RAM? Apple Pencil and keyboard from Apple still very expensive. And no pointer support. So the only main difference is Apple Pencil support (CPU upgrade is a given). And how about a redesign to make it more rugged for schools? I expect more from this highly profitable company.
    The previous generation CPU is appropriate to keep down bill of materials costs.  So, makes sense.

    I’ll bet the RAM is matched to the CPU.  3GB for the A10 Fusion.  Apple likely knows best.  So, makes sense.

    On the subject of no pointer support, well, it’s a touch screen interface.  Tablets are designed for a different user interaction paradigm.  So, makes sense.

    No need to ruggedize the device as there are perfectly suitable cases to protect it.  Why have that capability built into the device, necessitating a whole new engineering effort and separate SKUs.  So, as is makes sense.

    Making sense in their design, engineering, and marketing is what I expect from any company.  Apple is one of few that deliver.


    The arguments against "pointer support" on the iPad are primarily ideological rather than technical.   The fact is:  iOS was created by stripping that support from MacOS.  And, that was done because it was simply not needed on a tiny 3.5" iPhone screen that valued CPU/battery efficiency above all else. 

    Today, (iPad) screens are now the size of laptop screens and the processors that drive them are as powerful (or more!) than many laptop processors  So, the technical reasons for keeping iPads cursorless are fast fading away.   And, more importantly, it is painting Apple into an "also ran" corner -- which is becoming acutely obvious in the education market where they are being overrun with Chromebooks.   An article in CNBC said it well:

    "Venture capitalist Gene Munster said iPad is strongest in grades kindergarten through fifth grade while Chromebooks are more popular among older students in middle and high school, when activities like essays and spreadsheets come into play."

    Very simply, a cursorless iPad with only a touchscreen interface is mostly restricted to play and creative / artistic pursuits.  While it can do some limited serious work like word processing and spreadsheets, it is not well suited to those tasks. To perform those tasks well you need a high quality external keyboard with a mouse or a touchpad.  The iPad has the keyboard -- now it needs to the touchpad/mouse as well.

    If Apple is to remain competitive in markets such as education they have three choices:
    1)  Give the iPad a cursor
    2)  Produce a sub $500 MacBook
    3)  Produce a "SafariBook"

    Of the three, the first is the easiest and will produce the best overall product.  (And frankly is probably the only viable solution)
    Despite the screams of anguish from the ideological elite that it's a dreaded "H Y B R I D", adding a cursor to the iPad takes NOTHING away from the iPad.  Like split screen, an external keyboard and a file system, it just adds to its power and functionality...

    Frankly, I think if Steve were still with us the iPad would have had a cursor long ago -- because Steve was not constrained by ideology, biases and convention.   And frankly, he wouldn't accept "also ran".  Instead he made every product the best he could make it without unnecessary compromise.
    With respect to #1, MS included a feature in Windows 10 called Continuum, where it essentially adapts the UI to the the device it's on. When a KB is attached, the user is presented with cursor-based UI.  When the keyboard is detached, the user is presented with a touch / stylus based UI.  This is possibly a feature Apple could adopt for the iPad Pro where the UI will adapt based on whether a smart keyboard is attached or not.
    GeorgeBMacwatto_cobra
  • Reply 67 of 102
    GeorgeBMacGeorgeBMac Posts: 11,421member
    tmay said:
    mike54 said:
    Not impressed. A more recent CPU, but not the latest. Still has bluetooth 4.2. How much RAM? Apple Pencil and keyboard from Apple still very expensive. And no pointer support. So the only main difference is Apple Pencil support (CPU upgrade is a given). And how about a redesign to make it more rugged for schools? I expect more from this highly profitable company.
    The previous generation CPU is appropriate to keep down bill of materials costs.  So, makes sense.

    I’ll bet the RAM is matched to the CPU.  3GB for the A10 Fusion.  Apple likely knows best.  So, makes sense.

    On the subject of no pointer support, well, it’s a touch screen interface.  Tablets are designed for a different user interaction paradigm.  So, makes sense.

    No need to ruggedize the device as there are perfectly suitable cases to protect it.  Why have that capability built into the device, necessitating a whole new engineering effort and separate SKUs.  So, as is makes sense.

    Making sense in their design, engineering, and marketing is what I expect from any company.  Apple is one of few that deliver.


    The arguments against "pointer support" on the iPad are primarily ideological rather than technical.   The fact is:  iOS was created by stripping that support from MacOS.  And, that was done because it was simply not needed on a tiny 3.5" iPhone screen that valued CPU/battery efficiency above all else. 

    Today, (iPad) screens are now the size of laptop screens and the processors that drive them are as powerful (or more!) than many laptop processors  So, the technical reasons for keeping iPads cursorless are fast fading away.   And, more importantly, it is painting Apple into an "also ran" corner -- which is becoming acutely obvious in the education market where they are being overrun with Chromebooks.   An article in CNBC said it well:

    "Venture capitalist Gene Munster said iPad is strongest in grades kindergarten through fifth grade while Chromebooks are more popular among older students in middle and high school, when activities like essays and spreadsheets come into play."

    Very simply, a cursorless iPad with only a touchscreen interface is mostly restricted to play and creative / artistic pursuits.  While it can do some limited serious work like word processing and spreadsheets, it is not well suited to those tasks. To perform those tasks well you need a high quality external keyboard with a mouse or a touchpad.  The iPad has the keyboard -- now it needs to the touchpad/mouse as well.

    If Apple is to remain competitive in markets such as education they have three choices:
    1)  Give the iPad a cursor
    2)  Produce a sub $500 MacBook
    3)  Produce a "SafariBook"

    Of the three, the first is the easiest and will produce the best overall product.  (And frankly is probably the only viable solution)
    Despite the screams of anguish from the ideological elite that it's a dreaded "H Y B R I D", adding a cursor to the iPad takes NOTHING away from the iPad.  Like split screen, an external keyboard and a file system, it just adds to its power and functionality...

    Frankly, I think if Steve were still with us the iPad would have had a cursor long ago -- because Steve was not constrained by ideology, biases and convention.   And frankly, he wouldn't accept "also ran".  Instead he made every product the best he could make it without unnecessary compromise.
    I doubt that cursor support in iOS is primarily idealogical, though I would agree this it is in Mac OS, and for good reason. 

    I suspect that Apple has cursor driven apps running in their labs, but not yet meeting their standards for UX, at least not enough to drive an integration of the entire ecosystem of apps and developers. 

    More to the point, there needs to be a keyboard with a track pad to deliver that cursor, not a mouse, and it needs to be superior to the last keyboard cover; not a trivial engineering challenge. On top of that, it needs to be inexpensive for education, and even the current keyboard cover is a factor of three too expensive.

    Apple is never going to be able to compete on price with Chromebook, that's just a fact, yet I see plenty of posters, and various analysts stating that is exactly what Apple must do for the education market. I'm not seeing that as a viable business model for Apple to have razor thin margins and still not be able to compete with Chromebooks.


    1) It's not support for a cursor that is ideological -- it's the opposition to the addition of a cursor.
    2) Once a cursor is added to the iPad it can be driven by either a mouse or a trackpad -- just like a Mac.
    3) While there may be (or not) logistical issues in adding a touchpad to a keyboard cover, that does not eliminate the need or possibility of one.  The newest iPad can be driven by any external keyboard that supports bluetooth.  There is no reason to think the same would not apply to touchpads and mice.  In fact, I see no reason why the same keyboard/touchpad/mouse combinations that drive the iMac could not be used to to drive the iPad.

    4)  Correct:  While Apple can compete on price -- but they have chosen to compete on quality.  But that doesn't mean that they have to price themselves out of a market.  If they choose to sell only Rolls Royces to the education market, they won't sell too many.   In fact, they won't sell any.
  • Reply 68 of 102
    Mike WuertheleMike Wuerthele Posts: 6,861administrator
    TomE said:
    What I see at this point is my stock dropped to day.  Mr Market did not like what Apple did; so, people sold the stock.  There has to be something else.  But wait there is more. I would expect no less than what Apple did today.  It is 1+ year old parts with a long over due software update.  
    There had better be more pretty soon for the higher end.  Apple can do better.  They are over confident - I wonder if the original talent and drive has some been lost.  They have to move fast because everyone wants a piece of their cheese.  They cannot tell us what they are doing - they must show it.   I don't care for the competing products, but they have not left the scene yet.
    Mr. Market never likes an Apple event, because they have mythical visions in their head about every one of them updating every Apple product ever.
    True....
    But this decline in Apple Stock may have had more to do with Goldman Sacks issuing a caution that iPhone sales in the next two quarters were projected to be lower than expected (while iPhone ownership increased).

    https://www.cnbc.com/2018/03/28/goldman-sachs-slashes-apple-iphone-sales-estimates.html

    It had more to do with a wide tech sell-off yesterday. Most of the tech industry had a worse day.
    watto_cobra
  • Reply 69 of 102
    sandorsandor Posts: 658member
    dunks said:

    I like the idea of the Apple pencil, but it's much too long. Two thirds of its current length would feel so much better in the hand. If you can top up the charge by plugging it in for a minute the battery life is more or less moot.

    It is interesting, i find the Apple Pencil a welcome change in terms of its size.
    A shorter stylus has always been too small for my hands, and harder to use comfortably.
    watto_cobra
  • Reply 70 of 102
    anton zuykovanton zuykov Posts: 1,056member
    mike54 said:
    I expect more from this highly profitable company.
    Then you are not living in the real world, buddy. Companies hiring the best HR are paying premium for that, in comparison to when they hire an average personnel.
    When you buy a car with a more powerful engine option - you guessed it -you PAY MORE!
    When you buy the freshest fruits - again - you pay more!

    Then why the f*** are you expecting this not to be the case for iPads? How? What is a source of such unrealistic expectations? Everything that I know about life, tells me that if something is better - I have to pay more for that. That is the law of supply and demand. So, how did you manage to live long enough and not understand that simple law/truth?

    What you actually said wasn't "I expected more", but rather "I wanted more for less and it is Apple's fault my expectations are so unrealistic"!
    edited March 2018 StrangeDayswatto_cobra
  • Reply 71 of 102
    SoliSoli Posts: 10,035member
    netmage said:
    Soli said:

    it seems clear to me that it wouldn't be less expensive to only use the latest chips in the iPhone X, or one would have to have a reason why Apple is willing to pay a extra for a slower and less capable SoCs.
    Did you forget the A11 is also in the 8/8 Plus?
    No, it just wasn't relevant to list all premium late-2017 products that got the A11.
    edited March 2018
  • Reply 72 of 102
    DAalsethDAalseth Posts: 2,783member
    I'm actually very glad I got my iPadPro and Apple Pencil last fall. I'm just cheap enough to have gone with this iPad and a Crayon "because they are good enough and a lot less money". I love my setup now. Glad I went top end.
    watto_cobra
  • Reply 73 of 102
    I have an iPad Air 9.7" (WiFi only, 32GB) that I purchased new almost four years ago to the day.  It is a workhorse - I probably use it more than my Macbook Pro.  I'm waiting for Apple's final notification that my iPhone 6 Plus replacement battery is in, and then I'll head off to the nearest Apple store to update the battery plus trade in my iPad for the new one (WiFi only again, but 128GB this time around).  Really looking forward to it!
    canukstormwatto_cobra
  • Reply 74 of 102
    What are the chances that this could point to the largest iPhone in 2018 also having Apple Pencil support? This iPad isn't running an X version of the SoC. 
    watto_cobra
  • Reply 75 of 102
    k2kwk2kw Posts: 2,075member
    lvidal said:
    Honestly, this was an ultra boring event. I couldn't watch that video entirely without skipping all the time. That iPad update could have been announced through their website and a press note to the best news sites, papers and magazines. At $300 that iPad is far from budget for education. You still have to buy the pencil that doesn't come with it, also have to buy a keyboard because it is a must have accessory, a really good case and maybe pay for the Apple Care. So, we are talking about $700 or more here. If that's affordable... Doesn't Apple know that kids drop things all the time? That kids lose things all the time? That shiny iPad with its edge-to-edge glass display is too delicate for the kind of abuse they'll get from kids. And that Apple Pencil is TOO EXPENSIVE! for a thing your kid can lose too easy or break its lighting connector. Apple is clearly not in touch with reality here. That affordable and realistic iPad for education should be really good plastic casing with rubber bumper edges and a little gap front and back for the best drop protection out-of-the-box. Kids don't need shiny hardware, they need tough ones. It should come with the pencil, a tough and cheaper version of it ($30) that works exactly the same, and with a smart keyboard, because give me a break! This iPad doesn't even support the smart keyboard. This is a bad joke. An affordable iPad for education should be that bundle for $300 if they want to be competitive. But what I get from this announcement is that Apple doesn't want everybody to get their hands on their devices, but just the privileged ones. Clearly that's their vision. Also it isn't a worldwide plan. Normal schools around the world can't even think about the iPad as an education device, only the more expensive schools can ask their parents for it and can't get the iPad education discount. This is a shame. Apple is really an gigantic company that can do way better for almost everybody to get it touch with this technology. But it seems they can't accept making less money for the cause.
    I'm sure school districts in Silicon Valley can afford it.   75% of American no.
  • Reply 76 of 102
    78Bandit78Bandit Posts: 238member
    jcs2305 said:
    dunks said:
    I like the new 9.7" iPad and am glad to see it get pencil support. I wish it had a laminated display though as it's noticeably thicker (and heavier) than my current iPad Air 2. I'd take that trade off for additional battery life, but it's clear they started making them thicker again as an up-sell to the iPad Pro line. For that I might as well stick with my Air 2.

    The Pros seem outrageously priced at this point particularly in international markets. Sure you get a better display, but I'm not sure it's a case of twice the experience for twice the price.

    I like the idea of the Apple pencil, but it's much too long. Two thirds of its current length would feel so much better in the hand. If you can top up the charge by plugging it in for a minute the battery life is more or less moot.
    It's thicker because the battery is larger NOT for an up sell. My god man!

    I am not sure about international markets but the Ipad pro is priced $150.00 more that the Air 2 when it was released at 499.00 back in 2014.  So I am not sure where you get 2x the price from? Again I can't speak for international markets. I am in the USA..  If you have the Air 2 the speakers, ProMotion display, 64gb starting storage  and extra size of the 10.5 is worth $150.00..IMHO. I thought it was a bit to expensive initially as well, but once I had a chance to use the 10.5 pro I didn't look back.
    Pretty sure the poster was comparing the price of the current iPad ($329) to the current iPad Pro ($649).  The price of the Air 2 over three years ago is completely irrelevant when making a purchasing decision based on what is available right now.  The comparison is whether the speakers, ProMotion display, 32GB higher starting storage, and extra 0.8" of screen size is worth an additional $320 over the iPad 2018.
    muthuk_vanalingam
  • Reply 77 of 102
    melgrossmelgross Posts: 33,510member
    My daughter, and most of here friends are in the artistic community, in some way or the other. A number of them aren’t earning a lot of money yet, as they’re in their mid twenties. The cost of an iPad Pro is too much for some of them, particularly when the $99 Pencil is added in.

    but to have a Pencil supported 9’7” iPad for $329, and being able to buy the Logitech Crayon for $49, is within their budgets. There will be slight discounts some time after the introduction too. Not much, but enough to make a difference for some. We;ve been giving our year o,d tablets away. My wife gets my 12’9” iPad Pro, my daughter gives here’s away, and we’b]ve been doing that for years, as we get new ones every year. We give away the two year old tablet my wife gets. So I suppose that on the one hand we/re contributing to the sale of more tablets, and taking away from it by giving ours away.

    but I know that some of these people feel torn about getting a tablet, but they can’t afford to buy one. Hopefully they now will. If it’s someone we really don’t know well, we’ll sell it for a nominal amount.
    GeorgeBMacmuthuk_vanalingambeowulfschmidt
  • Reply 78 of 102
    melgrossmelgross Posts: 33,510member

    What are the chances that this could point to the largest iPhone in 2018 also having Apple Pencil support? This iPad isn't running an X version of the SoC. 
    I guess it depends on how easily it works with the 3D Touch layer, and how much more it would add the the price of the phone.
    watto_cobra
  • Reply 79 of 102
    k2kwk2kw Posts: 2,075member
    I thought I heard during the presentation something about multiple students being able to sign onto a single iPad.   Was that for school only (where they're accessing a school app) -- or does it mean a multi-user iPad where each member of the family could use it?
    The education Shared iPad feature introduced in iOS 9.3 doesn't work like multiple users on a Mac. It loads server side profiles from a school's local network infrastructure. If you're wondering why an iPad doesn't support swapping between various family members' accounts on the device itself, look how much content each user would have (GB of email, photos, apps, games) and divide the internal storage by the number of users you think it should support.
    Family support should be a given at this point or sometime this year.   The need for this cuts across tvOS, iOS for iPad, and HomePod with multi voice user support, and iCloud.

    the head of household should be able to decide how available memory is partitioned.

    I think this iPad will be a big seller with the general public and will take sales from the iPP but it's still pretty expensive for public schools.
    muthuk_vanalingam
  • Reply 80 of 102
    melgross said: I guess it depends on how easily it works with the 3D Touch layer, and how much more it would add the the price of the phone.
    Forgot about 3D Touch...that might be a potential issue. However, if they really did release something around 6.5", then that's getting to a size where Pencil support might have some real benefits. 
    watto_cobra
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