$1 billion Apple data center project in Athenry, Ireland cancelled

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Comments

  • Reply 21 of 48
    SpamSandwichSpamSandwich Posts: 30,863member
    ireland said:
    Strange why Apple wanted the Center there when there are areas of Ireland zoned for this kind of thing and this area is a green haven.
    But Apple’s entire history has been pro-responsibility and pro-environment. I suspect the entire case made against them was nonsense.
    jony0
  • Reply 22 of 48
    gatorguygatorguy Posts: 20,299member
    ireland said:
    Strange why Apple wanted the Center there when there are areas of Ireland zoned for this kind of thing and this area is a green haven.
    But Apple’s entire history has been pro-responsibility and pro-environment. I suspect the entire case made against them was nonsense.
    Amazon's most recent data center plan is also targeted. It's not so much the vendor apparently but more the fact that it's yet another very power hungry data center, altho it looks like Apple could have settled on a better location. In any event it wasn't going to be a major economic growth driver anyway and the ones who live there might well be happier without it at the end of the day.
    baconstangAlex1N
  • Reply 23 of 48
    chasmchasm Posts: 1,286member
    launfall said:
    Solar would not have been the best option in Ireland...sunny days are rare and short-lived.
    Solar power works best in sunny days, but does not require them. There are plenty of other sources of green power, from biofuels to wind, as well.
  • Reply 24 of 48
    irelandireland Posts: 17,549member
    ireland said:
    Strange why Apple wanted the Center there when there are areas of Ireland zoned for this kind of thing and this area is a green haven.
    But Apple’s entire history has been pro-responsibility and pro-environment. I suspect the entire case made against them was nonsense.
    Maybe, but my point is there are designated areas in Ireland already zoned for data center usage, and Apple could have put their data center there much more easily. 
    edited May 2018 Alex1N
  • Reply 25 of 48
    HyperealityHypereality Posts: 35unconfirmed, member
    I'm an Apple fanboy, but in this case I think I am on the side of the people opposing these data centers in Ireland. 

    Ireland and the UK where I am are very different from the US in terms of feasibility of renewable energy generation,  or indeed of Denmark. 

    US has far cheaper renewable resources based on lower cost land values and available power from sun in particular.   Denmark is a very bad comparison to Ireland because it has extremely cost efficient wind by virtue of it being able to use the Swedish hydro-electric system as a battery.  The excess wind energy is used to pump water 'uphill' into reservoirs and then uses the hydro system to re-generate,  the proximity of Denmark to the vast capacity of the Swedish hydro system is critical to this. Anyone who has watched the original 'The Bridge' knows just how close Denmark is to Sweden... 

    Often the details matter, and it does here. People in this part of the world often point at Denmark and say we should copy them, but our situation and that of Ireland is very different.  "I canna change the laws of physics captain!"
    baconstangAlex1N
  • Reply 26 of 48
    volcanvolcan Posts: 1,772member
    I have always thought that Iceland's Hydrogen Economy proposal was a great idea. Basically you use geothermal energy, which they have in abundance, for electrolysis of sea water. Too bad they don't have the financial resources to execute the plan. Perhaps Apple could jump start the program and use hydrogen fuel cells to power their data centers in the region.

    The byproduct of the electrolysis, oxygen, is not so bad since the primary sources of Earth's oxygen are the rainforests which are rapidly being decimated, but the left over salt is sort of a problem. You can't put it back in the ocean because of increased salinization although with the melting of the polar ice it might be offset. Of course the melting of polar ice is sort of a problem in itself though.
    radarthekatAlex1N
  • Reply 27 of 48
    tallest skiltallest skil Posts: 43,399member
    adm1 said:
    This Daly guy sounds so familiar to a few local to me in Scotland too. Not native, no family here, yet they move in and dictate to everyone about whats in the country's best interests…
    And, of course, it’s bigotry to say anything about it.
    wood1208 said:
    every country have to participate truthfully in an effort against green house gases
    Nah, I’m not fighting fake problems.
    So,who ever this Allan Daly needs to fight for human population population.
    Feel free to lead by example. Guns are widely available, after all.
  • Reply 28 of 48
    volcanvolcan Posts: 1,772member
    every country have to participate truthfully in an effort against green house gases
    Nah, I’m not fighting fake problems.
    Human caused global warming is a thing, however a couple volcanic eruptions would easily cancel any efforts to prevent atmospheric pollution. For eons there have been methane vents in the ocean floor worldwide which probably contribute to greenhouse gases as much as man made sources and methane is much more harmful in the atmosphere than CO2. Even the cattle being raised on a huge scale worldwide significantly contribute to methane pollution in the form of farts.
    spice-boy
  • Reply 29 of 48
    StrangeDaysStrangeDays Posts: 7,133member
    adm1 said:
    This Daly guy sounds so familiar to a few local to me in Scotland too. Not native, no family here, yet they move in and dictate to everyone about whats in the country's best interests…
    And, of course, it’s bigotry to say anything about it.
    wood1208 said:
    every country have to participate truthfully in an effort against green house gases
    Nah, I’m not fighting fake problems.
    So,who ever this Allan Daly needs to fight for human population population.
    Feel free to lead by example. Guns are widely available, after all.
    What nonsense. It’s not bigotry — a citizen is a citizen. A citizen doesn’t need to be native or have family roots in order to advocate for policy the citizen desires in his democracy. 

    The greenhouse effect is neither fake nor complicated. Increased gases like carbon dioxide that absorb infrared radiation make it harder for the IR energy to leave the earth’s atmosphere and go back into space. It’s simple physics.
    muthuk_vanalingamradarthekatspice-boyspheric
  • Reply 30 of 48
    maestro64maestro64 Posts: 4,485member
    gatorguy said:
    maestro64 said:
    Drain on the power grid, I guess this guy has not notice that Apple operations are 100% renewable. 

    Apple was just tying into the existing energy grid weren't they? To the best of my knowledge they weren't planning any solar or wind farms to supply it. 

    EDIT: According to the local news there that Apple data centre would have been burning more electricity than the entire city of Dublin. Wow! Data centers are hungry beasts.

    But that one Apple facility would NOT have been the major drain on the stressed energy grid. Talking just the big techs Google has at least two there and doing an expansion on one of those. Microsoft has several and with one recent huge data facility had to build their own energy plant to support it. Amazon already has at least three in service with two more in planning, one of which is the one under attack by Mr Daly who is probably emboldened now with this recent successful challenge. Perhaps Ireland is getting ahead of themselves just a tad in actively promoting Ireland as a data centre hub. Reportedly the energy infrastructure is not ready to support them.

    To their credit tho the Irish government's goal is for 40% of their energy production to source from the wind within the next three years, GE being one big name in the project. That's a pretty aggressive schedule.

    EDIT2: Irish article on the energy grid strain caused in part by the data center's power needs
    https://www.independent.ie/business/microsoft-forced-to-build-dublin-power-station-to-service-huge-data-centre-36137561.html
    http://www.powerengineeringint.com/articles/2017/10/ireland-faces-data-centre-challenge-to-power-demand.html

    It looks like energy might be a legitimate concern.
    The media seem to be implying that Apple was lying when they said their operations are now 100% renewable, and that is combination of solar, wind and fuel cells. What a surprise that media does not have their facts correct. Apple has proven they are committed not to consume more that they can self generate.
  • Reply 31 of 48
    gatorguygatorguy Posts: 20,299member
    maestro64 said:
    gatorguy said:
    maestro64 said:
    Drain on the power grid, I guess this guy has not notice that Apple operations are 100% renewable. 

    Apple was just tying into the existing energy grid weren't they? To the best of my knowledge they weren't planning any solar or wind farms to supply it. 

    EDIT: According to the local news there that Apple data centre would have been burning more electricity than the entire city of Dublin. Wow! Data centers are hungry beasts.

    But that one Apple facility would NOT have been the major drain on the stressed energy grid. Talking just the big techs Google has at least two there and doing an expansion on one of those. Microsoft has several and with one recent huge data facility had to build their own energy plant to support it. Amazon already has at least three in service with two more in planning, one of which is the one under attack by Mr Daly who is probably emboldened now with this recent successful challenge. Perhaps Ireland is getting ahead of themselves just a tad in actively promoting Ireland as a data centre hub. Reportedly the energy infrastructure is not ready to support them.

    To their credit tho the Irish government's goal is for 40% of their energy production to source from the wind within the next three years, GE being one big name in the project. That's a pretty aggressive schedule.

    EDIT2: Irish article on the energy grid strain caused in part by the data center's power needs
    https://www.independent.ie/business/microsoft-forced-to-build-dublin-power-station-to-service-huge-data-centre-36137561.html
    http://www.powerengineeringint.com/articles/2017/10/ireland-faces-data-centre-challenge-to-power-demand.html

    It looks like energy might be a legitimate concern.
    The media seem to be implying that Apple was lying when they said their operations are now 100% renewable, and that is combination of solar, wind and fuel cells. What a surprise that media does not have their facts correct. Apple has proven they are committed not to consume more that they can self generate.
    Saying they are contracting enough renewable energy sources (or augmenting with purchased Green credits) to cover their general power needs is not the same as physically powering every Apple facility with renewable energy. They don't.... and they can't. 

    They may well have surplus supply in Nevada for instance but that's of zero help in Ireland.
    edited May 2018 muthuk_vanalingamradarthekatAlex1N
  • Reply 32 of 48
    maestro64maestro64 Posts: 4,485member
    spice-boy said:
    It's amazing how a single person can hold up progress.  He'll be shutting down the looms in Nottingham next, a la Ned Lud.

    This would have been a benefit to the Irish economy, and provide valuable high tech jobs - attracting other such roles to the area, as Apple does lead the way on this in Ireland.  I don't understand the argument about the strain on the grid, and greenhouse gases... it'll get built somewhere else, AND Apple, of all company, is literally the best at using green energy.  

    I wonder if he'll win against Amazon too?
    Mr Allan Daly sounds like my kind of guy. Governments local and national all to easily cave to corporations and their promise of "great jobs" while not addressing the negative impact a development on this scale can have on the local environment or social and cultural impact. 

    I live in Manhattan and my neighborhood is the larget of the city government and a series of hight tech companies looking for a foothold in New York City. I and my neighbors lives will radically change if this happens. Rents will soar, our over stressed public transport system will get even worse, small businesses will be forced out to be replaced with more corporate stores and restaurants and the very make up of my neighborhood will become unrecognizable. Big business brings big change and it is not all good and seldom is the local workforce tapped for these jobs which demand importing higher skilled workers from other cities, states and countries. 
    The people of Ireland and every other place has the right to stand up to Apple and the other Goliaths of the corporate world. 
    Not that I disagree with your points, however, no one is offering a better solution, people need jobs, those jobs generate tax revenue for governments so they can provide services. Small companies are not as efficient with resources, bigger companies can do more with less. If you have lots of smaller companies that means things will be more spread out thus more strain on existing resources. Also trying to get a bunch of small companies to do things which benefit everyone is a lot harder.

    These problems are not simple, but you have to get out of the mode of you were here first mentality.
  • Reply 33 of 48
    dysamoriadysamoria Posts: 1,984member
    adm1 said:
    This Daly guy sounds so familiar to a few local to me in Scotland too. Not native, no family here, yet they move in and dictate to everyone about whats in the country's best interests - more often that not, environmentally focused at ANY cost. They would even protest against green/sustainable projects if it were to endanger the habitat of a sole gnat.
    That's right, you know nothing about the man, so why not build a strawman to mock environmentalists as a whole? The article even mentioned the relevant facts (a concern over greenhouse gas emissions, not "a sole gnat"), which you could look into before blindly bashing someone for trying to protect their adopted community. Don't like immigrants? I've got a US president to sell you...

    All of you complaining about the obstruction of so-called progress: progress isn't an automatically good thing. "Progress" was cited by those who sought to displace and exterminate the native people in the American continent. "Progress" is usually cited by environmentally destructive mining and gas extraction projects that destroy entire towns' water supplies.

    If you're angry at environmentalists so much that you feel the need to mock and decry them as a whole, you're very likely on the wrong side of actual human progress in many ways.
    singularitymuthuk_vanalingamradarthekatAlex1N
  • Reply 34 of 48
    stevehsteveh Posts: 480member
    adm1 said:

    This Daly guy sounds so familiar to a few local to me in Scotland too. Not native, no family here, yet they move in and dictate to everyone about whats in the country's best interests - more often that not, environmentally focused at ANY cost.
    We see that sort of thing all the time on this side of the pond. Someone moves into a rural area, after a bit begins to agitate against"organic" smells, dust, tractor/combine/planter noise. Or work to shut down a regional general aviation airport that's been operating since the 1930's.

    The end goal often being to buy up now unused land cheaply, so they can build a mall or over priced housing, etc.
    Alex1N
  • Reply 35 of 48
    KuyangkohKuyangkoh Posts: 303member
    Now then, Mr Daly you have to secure job creations for that lost...and tax income for the community.
    Sometimes balancing for job creation and environmental issues has to remain, but pushing too much will results in zip, nada, zero for the community.
    good luck with that......
  • Reply 36 of 48
    SoliSoli Posts: 8,692member
    ireland said:
    Strange why Apple wanted the Center there when there are areas of Ireland zoned for this kind of thing and this area is a green haven.
    Outside of Daly saying that it would be a strain on the power grid is there a reason why Athenry isn't a good spot? Are Daly's comments accurate? I can't imagine Apple going into this without knowing if there will be sufficient power.
    Alex1N
  • Reply 37 of 48
    SpamSandwichSpamSandwich Posts: 30,863member
    After looking into it further, it's clear the people of Athenry are extremely angry with this Daly person:

    https://news.vice.com/en_us/article/vbzng8/one-man-in-a-tiny-irish-town-could-derail-apples-plans-for-europe

    Looks like he's hated as an outsider and agitator.
    jony0Alex1N
  • Reply 38 of 48
    asciiascii Posts: 5,941member
    Soli said:
    ireland said:
    Strange why Apple wanted the Center there when there are areas of Ireland zoned for this kind of thing and this area is a green haven.
    Outside of Daly saying that it would be a strain on the power grid is there a reason why Athenry isn't a good spot? Are Daly's comments accurate? I can't imagine Apple going into this without knowing if there will be sufficient power.
    Neither can I. And even if there is insufficient power, whose fault is that? Environmentalists agitate for less practical forms of power generation, and then say you can't have development because there's not enough power.
  • Reply 39 of 48
    SpamSandwichSpamSandwich Posts: 30,863member
    ascii said:
    Soli said:
    ireland said:
    Strange why Apple wanted the Center there when there are areas of Ireland zoned for this kind of thing and this area is a green haven.
    Outside of Daly saying that it would be a strain on the power grid is there a reason why Athenry isn't a good spot? Are Daly's comments accurate? I can't imagine Apple going into this without knowing if there will be sufficient power.
    Neither can I. And even if there is insufficient power, whose fault is that? Environmentalists agitate for less practical forms of power generation, and then say you can't have development because there's not enough power.
    See the link to the Vice coverage, above. The people in Athenry do not like this guy... at all.
  • Reply 40 of 48
    tallest skiltallest skil Posts: 43,399member
    volcan said:
    Human caused global warming is a thing…
    It’s not. I’ve personally shown this quite clearly on this very website, and anyone is free to look at the data themselves straight from the sources. I care immensely about the poisoning of the water, air, and soil. Environmental damage and unsustainable economic practices which cause that is the greatest threat to our civilization, and always will be. The modernist delusion that humans are somehow separated from the ecosystem ironically comes from the very people the media says protect it. We need to be worrying about heavy metal (and neurotoxin) poisoning of our water and soil. We need to be worrying about depopulating fishing grounds. We need to be worrying about aerial poisons (from third world nations) being spread around the world. We need to be worrying about the phosphorus crisis that will hit roughly around the end of this century. And we need to fix this goddamn “consumerist” philosophy of disposable content that stems as an offshoot of post-war Keynesianism.

    Waste, poison, unneeded disposal; it’ll be the literal death of us all. Not the cooling of the planet (which is what’s actually occurring).
    however a couple volcanic eruptions would easily cancel any efforts to prevent atmospheric pollution.
    Be careful. You’re a “climate denier” for saying that. The official narrative doesn’t let you take that position anymore, no matter how factual it may be.  :D
    …a citizen is a citizen.
    Aha, but what happens if it isn’t?
    A citizen doesn’t need to be native or have family roots…
    Then… not a citizen. 
    It’s simple physics.
    It is, yes. So simple, in fact, that it doesn’t meaningfully apply to a system as complex as the atmosphere of an entire planet. We have seen, in 100 years, a 0.0001 mole fraction increase in CO2. Check on the the specific heat of the gas and run the math as to the “damage” that’s supposed to cause, and then cross-reference it with the actual temperature record.

    But hey, only a tiny portion of this has to do with Apple, so let’s drop the topic for now. Let’s talk about the European Union…  ;)
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