What to expect from Apple's WWDC 2018 keynote -- and what not to

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  • Reply 101 of 138
    tmaytmay Posts: 2,741member
    cgWerks said:
    dick applebaum said:
    A while back I did a bit of research on this.  As I understand it Intel hardware converts CISC instructions to RISC instructions for execution.   If so, could not that be done in advance, efficiently... translation, rather than emulation... honest question.
    It doesn't actually matter if it is efficient or not, as such compilers would do that once during compilation time. Runtime will not be affected by that.
    This is more in the context of software development, though, correct?

    I guess I was more referring to emulation/virtualization to be able to run Windows or Windows apps directly, such as in a VM. A lot of people do that kind of thing, so it isn't just a matter of how many apps might get ported over to Apple or Windows ARM platform... at least for a number of years.
    Why go to the trouble of designing a low volume ARM processor and then expect it to emulate/virtualize Windows? It would be a small market, and there isn't enough cost savings in hardware at this time to justify that performance penalty. Better to run natively on ARM, even if that is a limited subset of Windows software. Isn't the idea to deprecate Windows on Intel/AMD hardware?

    That would still leave a large body of Mac OS applications, recompiled for ARM, and iOS applications, plus Windows on ARM via UWP.

    Apple will almost certainly continue supporting Intel simply for "power users" indefinitely anyway.
    cgWerks
  • Reply 102 of 138
    StrangeDaysStrangeDays Posts: 4,915member
    cgWerks said:
    GeorgeBMac said:
    You can want better hardware all you want...  But, WWDC is about software -- and software/ecosystem is what sets Apple apart.  

    Hardware wise, they are an also ran (albeit at the higher end).   That is particularly true in the Mac line where they simply assemble off-the-shelf components available to most any mom & pop assembler...   Actually, if you look at a gamer build, it will often run circles around any Mac on a performance basis.   But, it can't do one thing that the Mac does well:  Run MacOS and integrate into the Apple ecosystem.
    But, as TallestSkil has been saying, it doesn't matter much how good the software is, or how strong the Apple eco-system, if people have to look to alternatives because the hardware to get the job done doesn't exist. And, while the software is still better in some ways than the competition, it isn't what it once was... and the eco-system is turning to %$*#(. The only reason anyone would subject themselves to Apple's services division, is because they are stuck in the eco-system. The success of that services pie-chart category is driven 120% by the hardware and OSs, no one would use them otherwise.

    tallest skil said:
    So why do you want four bloated apps to replace it? iBooks already doesn’t get backed up by Time Machine thanks to the retarded location it stores files. Then again, Apple doesn’t really care about people who want to own their own files anymore. They expect us to stream everything and if something we bought stops existing in their stores them’s the breaks.
    Apple doesn't seem to care of stuff works well anymore, so long as you buy the new shiny thing. It's downright disgusting if you remember where they once were. It was never perfect, but at one time, they cared. (And, I don't understand how so many people don't see that this will eventually catch up with them.)
    Boy you two should write television — such creative narratives you cook up. It’s all nonsense, of course... I use Apple services often and gladly. Music subscription, movie rental, storage, etc. No plans to quit and not interested in competing service providers. 

    As for you claim that Apple is disgusting and doesn’t care if things work anymore...what can I say, that’s pure insanity from someone getting high on nostalgia fumes. I supported university Mac labs in the ‘90s and things are waaay easier and better in every way today. In every way. I’ve never seen better Mac hardware, and I’ve never seen a more open, communicative Apple. Time to get yourself a Dell, buddy, and reap all the value-add that surely awaits you outside of disgusting old Apple. 
    SpamSandwichGeorgeBMac
  • Reply 103 of 138
    cgWerkscgWerks Posts: 1,455member
    tmay said:
    Why go to the trouble of designing a low volume ARM processor and then expect it to emulate/virtualize Windows? It would be a small market, and there isn't enough cost savings in hardware at this time to justify that performance penalty. Better to run natively on ARM, even if that is a limited subset of Windows software. Isn't the idea to deprecate Windows on Intel/AMD hardware?

    That would still leave a large body of Mac OS applications, recompiled for ARM, and iOS applications, plus Windows on ARM via UWP.

    Apple will almost certainly continue supporting Intel simply for "power users" indefinitely anyway.
    Yes, that is more or less what I meant... short-term vs long-term.

    A lot of Mac users along the prosumer to pro spectrum use VMs or Boot Camp or stuff like that to outright run Windows (or other OSs). I was just saying that re-compiling apps wouldn't help for this kind of purpose, at least not for several years until the whole industry does a shift (if it does).
  • Reply 104 of 138
    cgWerkscgWerks Posts: 1,455member
    StrangeDays said:
    Boy you two should write television — such creative narratives you cook up. It’s all nonsense, of course... I use Apple services often and gladly. Music subscription, movie rental, storage, etc. No plans to quit and not interested in competing service providers. 

    As for you claim that Apple is disgusting and doesn’t care if things work anymore...what can I say, that’s pure insanity from someone getting high on nostalgia fumes. I supported university Mac labs in the ‘90s and things are waaay easier and better in every way today. In every way. I’ve never seen better Mac hardware, and I’ve never seen a more open, communicative Apple. Time to get yourself a Dell, buddy, and reap all the value-add that surely awaits you outside of disgusting old Apple. 
    Difference is, I'm not a fanboy.

    I also use some Apple services, because I'm on the platform. Off-platform services are better, though. Dropbox is much better than iCloud. As horrible as the UIs and privacy are for Google, their services are more solid and feature-rich. There are oodles of music and video services.

    There just isn't much special about Apple's services, was my point. If you weren't on the Apple platform, you wouldn't be on the outside saying, "Gee, I sure wish I could use Apple xyz service!"

    What I meant by disgusting, is in comparing how they cared about quality in the past to now, not compared to the competition. I also supported Macs back in the 90s. Sure, it's easier now, but so isn't supporting PCs. However, supporting Macs now isn't easier than supporting them a decade or so ago.

    Your comment about Apple hardware never being better is a bit perplexing though. Is that pure fanboy? How can you say that when Apple used to incorporate the latest and greatest, often months before PC makers... isn't better than lagging a year or so behind? If you mean they are the best, like they say every keynote address... well, then sure, they are obviously faster than a machine from 10 years ago. That's just a stupid 'duh' marketing throw-away.
  • Reply 105 of 138
    racerhomie3racerhomie3 Posts: 553member
    gutengel said:
    What about airpower and airpods 2? At least I hope they release those products...
    I’d like to know how well iPod colors sold. Like, just as a concept. If they sold well enough, maybe Apple offering color options for AirPods would be the new “trend” thing. 

    No. They look like garbage.
  • Reply 106 of 138
    tallest skiltallest skil Posts: 43,236member
    No. They look like garbage.
    You’d prefer a matte version, I take it. :p
    cgWerksavon b7SpamSandwich
  • Reply 107 of 138
    dick applebaumdick applebaum Posts: 12,433member
    cgWerks said:
    dick applebaum said:
    It may be academic, considering that Schiller said Apple has no plans to use iPhone or iPad chips in Macs or other machines.
    I don't necessarily trust what Schiller says, though, or how it is meant. Maybe that just means they won't be directly dropping an A10x into a 'Mini' case and calling it the new Mac Mini. Even Steve was a bit tricky with his 'Apple won't' kind of statements. They usually could have been appended with: 'yet', 'or in that way'.

    I think Phil's words were carefully chosen to say everything and, yet, say nothing.  Steve was that way, too -- Even Tim!



    GeorgeBMac said:
    No, WWDC is about software and ecosystem and that's where they should focus their presentation -- even if it doesn't have the bells and glitter of a new hardware rollout.
    If that were the case, then it probably wouldn't be a worldwide keynote address, as 99% of people wouldn't care. The keynote aspect of the conference is more a show & tell than specifically developer focused... hence my comment about dancing emojis. They've shown many things over the years that aren't that big of a thing for developers, just because they are software. And, as noted, there has been a lot of hardware introduced too.


    Exactly!

    dick applebaum said:
    As I understand it, the main reason Apple abandoned Macworld Expos was that they wanted to release new hardware and software on Apple's schedule -- rather some arbitrary 3rd-party exposition's schedule.
    Yeah, I think that is kind of what happened. There was also discontent around where it was located and some other political stuff, I think.
    I used to work a couple blocks from MacWorld SF though, so really enjoyed going to those and meeting all the other vendors. Losing that aspect was rather sad, IMO.
    Ha! Did you work around there in the 1980s, when they had the Computer Faire?  We had a booth there with a Joystick for the Apple ][, an Assembler and a Japanese LCD panel about the size of the Apple ][ logo area.

    BTW, the hot chips in those days were the Zilog Z80 and the Motorola 6809.

    dick applebaum said:
    What about newer hardware able to support things like Metal, AR, AI, etc.


    Yeah, there is that too. On the one hand, I'm excited as the computing and GPU power to pull it off drives other advancement. On the other, I really don't care much about most of it right now... maybe Metal a bit.


    edited June 3 SpamSandwich
  • Reply 108 of 138
    IreneWIreneW Posts: 76member
    What about newer hardware able to support things like Metal, AR, AI, etc.
    Posts in this thread seem to agree that Apple doesn't care about high performance games, so why would anyone waste time on Metal?

    As a developer and SW test leader I'm not sure what to believe anymore...
  • Reply 109 of 138
    dick applebaumdick applebaum Posts: 12,433member
    IreneW said:
    What about newer hardware able to support things like Metal, AR, AI, etc.
    Posts in this thread seem to agree that Apple doesn't care about high performance games, so why would anyone waste time on Metal?

    As a developer and SW test leader I'm not sure what to believe anymore...
    Do gamers run Intel Boxes or ARM boxes... Or both?
  • Reply 110 of 138
    dick applebaumdick applebaum Posts: 12,433member

    If my theory is correct, Apple worked themselves into a corner:

    1. they didn't provide incremental updates to lower-end Macs because there was no cost/price benefits to the Intel upgrades
    2. they were developing an in-house alternative chip to Intel, but missed their release/delivery deadlines

    So, parts of the Mac lineup are outdated -- hopefully rectified soon!
  • Reply 111 of 138
    IreneWIreneW Posts: 76member
    IreneW said:
    What about newer hardware able to support things like Metal, AR, AI, etc.
    Posts in this thread seem to agree that Apple doesn't care about high performance games, so why would anyone waste time on Metal?

    As a developer and SW test leader I'm not sure what to believe anymore...
    Do gamers run Intel Boxes or ARM boxes... Or both?
    Both, depending on the type of game (or rather the target demographic). But none of the high performance devs focus on Apple, and Metal means nothing outside the Apple world. 
    At least that is what I hear, working here in Stockholm.
    edited June 3
  • Reply 112 of 138
    kimberlykimberly Posts: 90member
    Could this be the year when Apple finally kills off and breaks apart the bloated app known as iTunes? One can dream.
    Could this be the year when Apple finally kills off and breaks apart the bloated app known as iTunes? One can dream.
    So why do you want four bloated apps to replace it? iBooks already doesn’t get backed up by Time Machine thanks to the retarded location it stores files. Then again, Apple doesn’t really care about people who want to own their own files anymore. They expect us to stream everything and if something we bought stops existing in their stores them’s the breaks.
    I agree with both of you !
  • Reply 113 of 138
    dick applebaumdick applebaum Posts: 12,433member
    IreneW said:
    IreneW said:
    What about newer hardware able to support things like Metal, AR, AI, etc.
    Posts in this thread seem to agree that Apple doesn't care about high performance games, so why would anyone waste time on Metal?

    As a developer and SW test leader I'm not sure what to believe anymore...
    Do gamers run Intel Boxes or ARM boxes... Or both?
    Both, depending on the type of game (or rather the target demographic). But none of the high performance devs focus on Apple, and Metal means nothing outside the Apple world. 
    At least that is what I hear, working here in Stockholm.
    One grandson has an XBox 1, the second grandson, a more serious gamer, has a PS4 and a Nintendo Switch... Both have iPhone Xs that they sometimes use for gaming.

     About how many gamers do you think there that use/need top end Intel boxes?

    Trying to determine if there a market that Apple might consider — what with their local AI, AR, ML capabilities, it could be a no brainer... Apple may not do what I want them to do — but they’re not stupid!


  • Reply 114 of 138
    kimberlykimberly Posts: 90member
    So let's all focus on the hardware!   LOL...
    Why should we settle for shit hardware?
    Actually, all of @tallest_skil comments on this particular thread are spot on (IMO).
  • Reply 115 of 138
    cgWerkscgWerks Posts: 1,455member
    dick applebaum said:
    Ha! Did you work around there in the 1980s, when they had the Computer Faire?  We had a booth there with a Joystick for the Apple ][, an Assembler and a Japanese LCD panel about the size of the Apple ][ logo area.
    No, moved there just before the 9/11 attacks, so mid-2001. I did get to see Steve introduce the iPhone, though via a screen, not in the auditorium. I used to put xServes and such on a cart and wheel them down the block to the Apple Store from our server room. I even met Steve once in the Palo Alto Apple Store. It was a fun place to live for a while. My wife went to grad-school in my later years there in North Bay, so I got to drive across the Golden Gate each day (and luckily reverse-commute due to my schedule!).

    IreneW said:
    Posts in this thread seem to agree that Apple doesn't care about high performance games, so why would anyone waste time on Metal?
    As a developer and SW test leader I'm not sure what to believe anymore...
    On the Mac. I think they realize the importance of it on iOS. If they happen to advance that aspect on the Mac too, they'd take it, I'm sure.
    But, wouldn't Metal also apply to things like VR/AR, 3D animation, etc? Maybe even stuff like After Effects or video editing effects?

    IreneW said:
    Both, depending on the type of game (or rather the target demographic). But none of the high performance devs focus on Apple, and Metal means nothing outside the Apple world. 
    At least that is what I hear, working here in Stockholm.
    Yeah, iOS... but that is no small world anymore.
  • Reply 116 of 138
    tmaytmay Posts: 2,741member
    cgWerks said:
    StrangeDays said:
    Boy you two should write television — such creative narratives you cook up. It’s all nonsense, of course... I use Apple services often and gladly. Music subscription, movie rental, storage, etc. No plans to quit and not interested in competing service providers. 

    As for you claim that Apple is disgusting and doesn’t care if things work anymore...what can I say, that’s pure insanity from someone getting high on nostalgia fumes. I supported university Mac labs in the ‘90s and things are waaay easier and better in every way today. In every way. I’ve never seen better Mac hardware, and I’ve never seen a more open, communicative Apple. Time to get yourself a Dell, buddy, and reap all the value-add that surely awaits you outside of disgusting old Apple. 
    Difference is, I'm not a fanboy.

    I also use some Apple services, because I'm on the platform. Off-platform services are better, though. Dropbox is much better than iCloud. As horrible as the UIs and privacy are for Google, their services are more solid and feature-rich. There are oodles of music and video services.

    There just isn't much special about Apple's services, was my point. If you weren't on the Apple platform, you wouldn't be on the outside saying, "Gee, I sure wish I could use Apple xyz service!"

    What I meant by disgusting, is in comparing how they cared about quality in the past to now, not compared to the competition. I also supported Macs back in the 90s. Sure, it's easier now, but so isn't supporting PCs. However, supporting Macs now isn't easier than supporting them a decade or so ago.

    Your comment about Apple hardware never being better is a bit perplexing though. Is that pure fanboy? How can you say that when Apple used to incorporate the latest and greatest, often months before PC makers... isn't better than lagging a year or so behind? If you mean they are the best, like they say every keynote address... well, then sure, they are obviously faster than a machine from 10 years ago. That's just a stupid 'duh' marketing throw-away.
    Honestly, there aren't the rapid advances in Intel CPU technology driving anything but single digit performance increases in Mac's. Most of the heavy lifting for performance that Apple has done in the last couple of years has been in memory bandwidth and latency, SSD, and of course GPGPU"s. Arguably, the only thing that Intel has delivered routinely is additional cores, which are useful to some workflows, but not so much for others. That Apple has been waiting for Intel to deliver LPDDR4 support so that Apple can provide 32 GB of Memory to it's Mac Book Pro's is well known. 

    Sure, Apple could have delivered a higher performance Mac Book Pro with 32 GB of memory, sacrificing battery life, amongst other things, but why? Apple is already keeping the largest proportion of profits in the PC market anyway.
  • Reply 117 of 138
    cgWerkscgWerks Posts: 1,455member
    dick applebaum said:
    One grandson has an XBox 1, the second grandson, a more serious gamer, has a PS4 and a Nintendo Switch... Both have iPhone Xs that they sometimes use for gaming.
     About how many gamers do you think there that use/need top end Intel boxes?
    It's a different kind/level of gaming. $Thousands into equipment, special keyboards and mice, etc. And, then you have to have the skills to compete. I tried it for a bit (just with the hardware I had) and decided console gaming was for me. And, then stuff like iOS, Nintendo, etc. is a whole other kind of gaming.

    Here's an article that talks about some of the differences:
    http://www.businessinsider.com/reasons-why-gaming-on-pc-still-better-than-game-consoles-2017-7

    As for the numbers... I think it's a bit over half are PC, half console, but both pale in comparison to iOS numbers (but then the former two might not consider the latter real gaming :) ) Just Googling it, it seems like around 2 billion gamers worldwide (but not all PC)

    BUT... I'd guess that a very small percentage of those spend the thousands of dollars on their machine. They probably just make do with what they have (as I did).
  • Reply 118 of 138
    cgWerkscgWerks Posts: 1,455member
    tmay said:
    Honestly, there aren't the rapid advances in Intel CPU technology driving anything but single digit performance increases in Mac's. Most of the heavy lifting for performance that Apple has done in the last couple of years has been in memory bandwidth and latency, SSD, and of course GPGPU"s. Arguably, the only thing that Intel has delivered routinely is additional cores, which are useful to some workflows, but not so much for others. That Apple has been waiting for Intel to deliver LPDDR4 support so that Apple can provide 32 GB of Memory to it's Mac Book Pro's is well known. 

    Sure, Apple could have delivered a higher performance Mac Book Pro with 32 GB of memory, sacrificing battery life, amongst other things, but why? Apple is already keeping the largest proportion of profits in the PC market anyway.
    True, but I'm not sure that matters. There are updates for lots of other components too, like ports and GPUs. It isn't all about how much performance can be gained with the latest CPU. And, sure, for the average home user, single-core speed is everything with another core to smooth things out... but for any prosumer to professional, we'll take the extra cores - AND - lower power consumption! (and hopefully less fan noise)

    I'm a good example. I don't know what to buy right now, so I've been holding off purchasing. My son is also waiting to buy a laptop. Those are two sales right there Apple isn't making because their product lines aren't up to date, or flawed And, even in the case of the laptop... assuming the current one wasn't flawed... I'd rather have the newer chips with the possibility of more cores. (He wants the 13" MBP, but its only dual-core... would love for it to be a quad-core, as that will make a real-world difference for him.)

    Apple gains nothing by lagging behind. Blaming Intel is just a silly excuse, as I'm not saying that I refuse to buy a new Mac because the performance gain isn't enough over the previous model. I'd buy the previous model if it had the newer ports (laptop) or wasn't outright ancient for the price (desktops). In fact, if Apple doesn't release some new machines, I might have to buy an ancient one, but may never forgive Apple for that.
  • Reply 119 of 138
    dick applebaumdick applebaum Posts: 12,433member
    cgWerks said:
    dick applebaum said:
    One grandson has an XBox 1, the second grandson, a more serious gamer, has a PS4 and a Nintendo Switch... Both have iPhone Xs that they sometimes use for gaming.
     About how many gamers do you think there that use/need top end Intel boxes?
    It's a different kind/level of gaming. $Thousands into equipment, special keyboards and mice, etc. And, then you have to have the skills to compete. I tried it for a bit (just with the hardware I had) and decided console gaming was for me. And, then stuff like iOS, Nintendo, etc. is a whole other kind of gaming.

    Here's an article that talks about some of the differences:
    http://www.businessinsider.com/reasons-why-gaming-on-pc-still-better-than-game-consoles-2017-7

    As for the numbers... I think it's a bit over half are PC, half console, but both pale in comparison to iOS numbers (but then the former two might not consider the latter real gaming :) ) Just Googling it, it seems like around 2 billion gamers worldwide (but not all PC)

    BUT... I'd guess that a very small percentage of those spend the thousands of dollars on their machine. They probably just make do with what they have (as I did).
    Thanks for the link, I understand a lot more.

    Are most games downloaded and executed locally, online or both (competition)?
  • Reply 120 of 138
    cgWerkscgWerks Posts: 1,455member
    dick applebaum said:
    Thanks for the link, I understand a lot more.
    Are most games downloaded and executed locally, online or both (competition)?
    I suppose both, though I think most of the computation is on the local side. Many have servers that act like a hub between all the gamers, though I don't know how much computing power is involved at the server.
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