Apple isn't doomed because it didn't release new Macs and iPads at WWDC

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  • Reply 61 of 127
    elijahgelijahg Posts: 688member
    In reply to people claiming Intel hasn't pushed out CPUs with major speed bumps as the reason for a stale Mac line, that's not the point. The point is Apple's Mac lineup is chock full of old, overpriced hardware. For some reason - be it a possible ARM transition or Cook's obvious lack of interest in the Mac - they just don't update the Mac line anywhere near enough. Even if an ARM Mac was on the way, there's been ample time to produce updated Intel Macs. Have all internal combustion car manufacturers stopped because electric is on the way? Of course not. Just look at the Mini, not updated since 2014 and even back then it wasn't cheap. Now it's just extortionate. I fear Cook will use "lack of sales" to knock the lesser-sold Macs on the head, when the reason for lack of sales is how out of date and overpriced the hardware is. There's no excuse, Macs are too expensive. I've said this many-a-time before; in the mid to late 2000s they were really becoming excellent value and the sales were growing significantly, bucking the PC market trend. Now people are defending Apple's single-digit or even negative Mac growth. 


    It just shows Apple has no idea of the value of things when they price a phone at £1000+. I have bought a new iPhone every two years prior to the X, but I'm just not paying out that much for a phone. It's ridiculous. Despite being a shareholder, I wish the X had flopped. Perhaps that would have knocked some sense into Apple's pricing, and they would have realised they are charging too much. Troll fanboys bleat on about profit margins, but profit margins are no good if developers begin leaving your platform. That happened in the mid-90's. Apple's profit margin was still reasonable but they were selling barely anything. The Macs then were outdated and expensive. Just as they are now. It's unfortunate the iPhone seems to be such a huge distraction for Apple. Where are all the billions Apple's spending on R&D actually going?

    I know this has become a bit of a meme, but I really do feel Cook needs to go. Yes sales have grown under him, and he's obviously a very good businessman. But he is not a very good CEO. 
    avon b7entropysBigDannAlex1N
  • Reply 62 of 127
    Mike WuertheleMike Wuerthele Posts: 3,701administrator
    elijahg said:
    In reply to people claiming Intel hasn't pushed out CPUs with major speed bumps as the reason for a stale Mac line, that's not the point. The point is Apple's Mac lineup is chock full of old, overpriced hardware. For some reason - be it a possible ARM transition or Cook's obvious lack of interest in the Mac - they just don't update the Mac line anywhere near enough. Even if an ARM Mac was on the way, there's been ample time to produce updated Intel Macs. Have all internal combustion car manufacturers stopped because electric is on the way? Of course not. Just look at the Mini, not updated since 2014 and even back then it wasn't cheap. Now it's just extortionate. I fear Cook will use "lack of sales" to knock the lesser-sold Macs on the head, when the reason for lack of sales is how out of date and overpriced the hardware is. There's no excuse, Macs are too expensive. I've said this many-a-time before; in the mid to late 2000s they were really becoming excellent value and the sales were growing significantly, bucking the PC market trend. Now people are defending Apple's single-digit or even negative Mac growth. 


    It just shows Apple has no idea of the value of things when they price a phone at £1000+. I have bought a new iPhone every two years prior to the X, but I'm just not paying out that much for a phone. It's ridiculous. Despite being a shareholder, I wish the X had flopped. Perhaps that would have knocked some sense into Apple's pricing, and they would have realised they are charging too much. Troll fanboys bleat on about profit margins, but profit margins are no good if developers begin leaving your platform. That happened in the mid-90's. Apple's profit margin was still reasonable but they were selling barely anything. The Macs then were outdated and expensive. Just as they are now. It's unfortunate the iPhone seems to be such a huge distraction for Apple. Where are all the billions Apple's spending on R&D actually going?

    I know this has become a bit of a meme, but I really do feel Cook needs to go. Yes sales have grown under him, and he's obviously a very good businessman. But he is not a very good CEO. 
    Your graph lacks context. The rapid escalation before 2012 has more to do with the rapid escalation of the PC market overall. The steady or increasing Mac sales for the last five years or so are in a declining PC market overall, since about 2012.


    it's a new world. People are using the iPhone as their primary devices. Paying $1000 for a primary device is something that's happened since the dawn of computing. As a Mac fan, you don't have to like it, but it is literally, how things are.
    edited June 9 macxpresstmayStrangeDaysGeorgeBMacAlex1Nfastasleep
  • Reply 63 of 127
    StrangeDaysStrangeDays Posts: 6,021member
    mattinoz said:
    mattinoz said:
    Apple didn’t say boo about cloud or data storage services. No what’s new in CloudKit no what’s new in coreData. Surely that is a bigger problem than no new hardware at the hardware agnostic event. 
    Yeah, huge problem. You know WWDC is a week long, right?

    TUESDAY, 10:00 AM

    iCloud and CloudKit Lab

    Technology Lab 9 — 10:00 AM to 12:00 PM

    Talk with CloudKit engineers to understand how you can leverage the CloudKit APIs in your app and on your website. Get advice on how to model your data, save and query records, subscribe to updates, create custom record zones, and share your records with other users. Talk to Apple experts about how to make the most of all the iCloud technologies. Bring all your CloudKit and iCloud questions, your laptop, and your code.

    Lab 2020

    TUESDAY, 3:00 PM

    Core Data Lab

    Technology Lab 7 — 3:00 PM to 5:30 PM

    Core Data is a framework that manages object graphs, relationships, and persistence of those objects. Apple engineers will be on hand to answer questions about Core Data and how it reduces the amount of code you have to write to manage your model. We're here to help you get answers, learn about the latest development techniques and tools, and improve your code and apps.

    Lab 2090

    THURSDAY, 2:00 PM

    Core Data Best Practices

    Executive Ballroom — 2:00 PM to 2:40 PM

    As your app gains more customers and becomes more feature-rich, you may find yourself with new problems to solve. Core Data is a powerful tool that has changed a lot over the years. Learn about the new best practices in Core Data, such as how to use concurrency and persistent history, and discover how to test for, and resolve, common problems using familiar technologies.

    Session 224 View video and resources 

    Yes they have the full suite of labs and best practices talks. I’ll admit haven’t been able to watch the last one yet. Still normally there would also be a what’s new to cover api improvements, better services and such. Best practices suggests no improvement in API. I hope I’m wrong. 
    Stop moving the goalposts. First you claimed they didn’t cover this topic at WWDC, now you’re claiming “But there might not be improvements!” And you haven’t even bothered to review the material.

    Don't quit your day job. 
    Alex1Nfastasleep
  • Reply 64 of 127
    StrangeDaysStrangeDays Posts: 6,021member

    avon b7 said:
    It's ridiculous when competitors release machines and reviewers call it 'the machine Apple would like to make' or some such comments.
    And they still don’t sell.

    Meanwhile, Mac sales increase. Poor, ridiculous, unforgivable Apple. When will they learn? It’s almost like they don’t get that specs are supposed to trump a cohesive, well-designed, superior product. 
    Alex1NRayz2016fastasleep
  • Reply 65 of 127
    nunzynunzy Posts: 662member
    mcdave said:
    It still shows how hardware/specification-centric many peoples thinking is; they look at the assumed benefits of numbers rather work output.  The adoption of Intel has turned the Mac user into just another PC user locked into not only the architecture but the mentality which surrounds it.

    The sad thing is; when Apple does release its own new hardware, those lowest common denominator benchmarks which appraise defunct technology won’t reveal the benefits that real apps & workflows will encounter.  The ‘Pro’ team may be taking an holistic approach to technical enhancements but how they’re going to articulate those may prove a greater challenge.

    Looking forward to some new toys though.
    I agree. The Pro team is taking a holistic approach to technical enhancements. But the haters don't care.
    fastasleep
  • Reply 66 of 127
    StrangeDaysStrangeDays Posts: 6,021member

    Rayz2016 said:
    k2kw said:

    Portent of the future

    Speaking about telling developers what to expect in the future, Apple previewed the fruits of project "Marzipan" at WWDC. Instead of a straight emulation layer, it turned out to be a framework and API for porting over iPad apps to the Mac.

    While I'm certain that this can be used for good or evil, skillfully or poorly, it isn't a regression. I also believe that it is an early step for migrating at least some of the Mac line to ARM, as the porting friction reduces even further as the technology is finally released to developers in full in 2019.

    But, like we said on the AppleInsider Podcast on Friday, this reveal of what is rumored to be called Marzipan is about step two of a twenty step process.

    "Marzipan is about step two of a twenty step process." - best description of what I believe will be an evolution of both iOS and macOS to create new and enhanced versions of both over many years. Now I believe that way down the road macComputers will support Touch and the iPad will support the mouse. It's like when Job's said "Stylus. yuck" but apple came out with a Pencil that is better. When the "merger" is done it will be without compromises and the experience on both will be better.

    Of course! Of course! I didn't see it at first, but now it's perfectly clear.

    For weeks, I've been wondering why AppleInsider has insisted that Apple was planning an emulation layer so that iOS apps can run on Macs, when the initial report they cribbed from, seasoned developers, experienced journalists, and just about everyone in between said that Apple was coming up with an API to make it easier for themselves and developers to port applications between iOS and MacOS. AI was getting it so badly wrong, I was starting to wonder if they were just saying it to generate page clicks. No they weren't; they really did just get it badly wrong.

    It made no sense at all to me (and I suspect it had @StrangeDays shaking his head in wonder too).

    But as it turns out, AppleInsider simply made the classic mistake of the inexperienced journalist and rookie police detective: they started with what they wanted to believe, and then worked in reverse to find evidence to make it fact.

    In this case, AppleInsider (and you) want to believe that Apple will merge the Mac and the iPad into some sort of bastardised hybrid FrankenMacPad. The reason that you want this is the same reason that is behind every odd request that shows up here: price. Rather than caring if this would actually work, what folk are thinking is "if Apple made such a machine, then I wouldn't have to buy two machines". Any compromises such a device would suffer would be complained about endlessly of course, but at least you got it for a cheaper outlay than buying a Mac and an iPad.

    But back to the original point: this pattern of thinking leads to two strange phenomena that are unique to the Mac world:

    1. X-Files Case Number 7737228728: The Internal Reality Twist. When a senior Apple exec goes on stage and drops a twenty-foot on-screen "NO" to the question of merging MacOS and iOS, what folk here think is "Well, it was an on-screen "NO", rather than a real, touchable "NO" pressed from Apple-crafted ceramic and honed smooth with lasers and a Jony Ive talkover explaining, in soothing British tones, how the massive "NO" was made. Since it's not a tangible "NO" then it's not a real "NO", so that means that they're planning on merging iOS and MacOS two years from now!"
    2. X-Files Case Number 7737228729: The Historical Reality Twist. When Steve Jobs said Apple won't do something; then years later, Apple does it, then this is proof that they can change their minds. 

    Actually, I'm going to stop there, because point #2 is perfectly reasonable: if Apple didn't change their minds when they've taken the wrong path, then the company would never have survived this long, and that is an indisputable fact. The problem is the Historical Twist part. In this case, folk tend to make up their own words for what was actually said, so that it can reinforce what they're actually wishing for. Here's a video:



    Jobs did not say "Stylus … yuk!"

    What Jobs actually said was, "If you need a stylus then you've already failed."

    The difference is subtle, but if you don't get it then you don't really understand why the iPad succeeded where so many before it did not. Jobs did not say that they would never have a stylus; what he actually said was that from day one the iPad was designed so that it wouldn't need one. This requirement shaped how the tablet was built, how iOS was designed, how apps would look and how folk would interact with them. Thanks to Jobs's insistence that Apple's designers would not assume a stylus would ever be available, they came up with a system that could happily work with a finger or a stylus.

    The whole premise that Apple will make a FrankenMacPad because they once said they wouldn't make a stylus is flawed – because Apple didn't say they wouldn't make a stylus. In fact, if anything, Jobs statement about the stylus proves he believes that the best devices have to be designed from the ground up to support one overall style of interaction for the best possible user experience, so if anything, the stylus quote (the real one) actually points to a future without a FrankenMacPad

    So, does this mean that Apple will never make a hybrid? No, of course not. As I've said, Apple can and does change its mind. But as things stand, they've already made prototypes; the ergonomics over long periods of use don't work. From my own experience, when I work with hybrids, I tend to just use them as laptops, and most of the folk around me tend to do the same thing. So is there is no current plan to make on? Nope. Sorry, there isn't. This Marzipan is not the first step to a hybrid, it's just another step along an endless road to make iOS and MacOS work better together, without compromising devices running either.

    "But if Apple doesn't think touchscreens belong on the Mac, then what about the Touch Bar huh? Yeah, clever clogs! What about that??"

    That is not a touch screen, it is a touch keyboard, and we know that Apple has loved touch keyboards for years.


    One other thing: Jobs's statement on the need for a stylus bears greater weight when you remember that the iPad was actually conceived before the iPhone.
    You're making a few assumptions here.

    1) That I believe that a hybrid device is coming. I have never said that. ARM-powered Macs != hybrid Mac and iPad. It's just a Mac, running macOS, with an ARM processor. The Intel Macs were no longer PowerPC Macs, they were Intel Macs.

    2) I am on record for well over a year saying that Marzipan isn't an emulation framework. Not just in multiple editorials, but on the AI podcast, and my own. AI is not some monolithic agency with planning meetings on common opinions and interpretations.

    Those two make the rest of your assumptions about this editorial problematic.
    on 2, this doesn’t change the fact that AI’s coverage of Marizpan has been completely wrong, as we politely pointed out in the comments of Marzipan stories, going so far as to provide helpful links to the details on why, such as the John Gruber posts and insight...an actual dev and a guy who talks to Phil Schiller and is way closer to the sources than the AI writer who kept saying it was (and i quote) about “iOS apps running on Mac”. No. We explained why that was wrong. Provided links. But still more articles about “iOS apps running on Mac”. Wuuut. 

    Maybe you had your own personal take and maybe AI doesn’t have editorial meetings to figure out what it thinks, but maybe as a news org it should. We did in the paper I worked for and my local paper does too. It makes sense to weight the opinions of those who understand the subject material heavier than those who do not.
    edited June 9 tmayBigDannAlex1N
  • Reply 67 of 127
    StrangeDaysStrangeDays Posts: 6,021member

    Rayz2016 said:
    k2kw said:

    Portent of the future

    Speaking about telling developers what to expect in the future, Apple previewed the fruits of project "Marzipan" at WWDC. Instead of a straight emulation layer, it turned out to be a framework and API for porting over iPad apps to the Mac.

    While I'm certain that this can be used for good or evil, skillfully or poorly, it isn't a regression. I also believe that it is an early step for migrating at least some of the Mac line to ARM, as the porting friction reduces even further as the technology is finally released to developers in full in 2019.

    But, like we said on the AppleInsider Podcast on Friday, this reveal of what is rumored to be called Marzipan is about step two of a twenty step process.

    "Marzipan is about step two of a twenty step process." - best description of what I believe will be an evolution of both iOS and macOS to create new and enhanced versions of both over many years. Now I believe that way down the road macComputers will support Touch and the iPad will support the mouse. It's like when Job's said "Stylus. yuck" but apple came out with a Pencil that is better. When the "merger" is done it will be without compromises and the experience on both will be better.

    Of course! Of course! I didn't see it at first, but now it's perfectly clear.

    For weeks, I've been wondering why AppleInsider has insisted that Apple was planning an emulation layer so that iOS apps can run on Macs, when the initial report they cribbed from, seasoned developers, experienced journalists, and just about everyone in between said that Apple was coming up with an API to make it easier for themselves and developers to port applications between iOS and MacOS. AI was getting it so badly wrong, I was starting to wonder if they were just saying it to generate page clicks. No they weren't; they really did just get it badly wrong.

    It made no sense at all to me (and I suspect it had @StrangeDays shaking his head in wonder too).

    But as it turns out, AppleInsider simply made the classic mistake of the inexperienced journalist and rookie police detective: they started with what they wanted to believe, and then worked in reverse to find evidence to make it fact.

    In this case, AppleInsider (and you) want to believe that Apple will merge the Mac and the iPad into some sort of bastardised hybrid FrankenMacPad. The reason that you want this is the same reason that is behind every odd request that shows up here: price. Rather than caring if this would actually work, what folk are thinking is "if Apple made such a machine, then I wouldn't have to buy two machines". Any compromises such a device would suffer would be complained about endlessly of course, but at least you got it for a cheaper outlay than buying a Mac and an iPad.

    But back to the original point: this pattern of thinking leads to two strange phenomena that are unique to the Mac world:

    1. X-Files Case Number 7737228728: The Internal Reality Twist. When a senior Apple exec goes on stage and drops a twenty-foot on-screen "NO" to the question of merging MacOS and iOS, what folk here think is "Well, it was an on-screen "NO", rather than a real, touchable "NO" pressed from Apple-crafted ceramic and honed smooth with lasers and a Jony Ive talkover explaining, in soothing British tones, how the massive "NO" was made. Since it's not a tangible "NO" then it's not a real "NO", so that means that they're planning on merging iOS and MacOS two years from now!"
    2. X-Files Case Number 7737228729: The Historical Reality Twist. When Steve Jobs said Apple won't do something; then years later, Apple does it, then this is proof that they can change their minds. 

    Actually, I'm going to stop there, because point #2 is perfectly reasonable: if Apple didn't change their minds when they've taken the wrong path, then the company would never have survived this long, and that is an indisputable fact. The problem is the Historical Twist part. In this case, folk tend to make up their own words for what was actually said, so that it can reinforce what they're actually wishing for. Here's a video:



    Jobs did not say "Stylus … yuk!"

    What Jobs actually said was, "If you need a stylus then you've already failed."

    The difference is subtle, but if you don't get it then you don't really understand why the iPad succeeded where so many before it did not. Jobs did not say that they would never have a stylus; what he actually said was that from day one the iPad was designed so that it wouldn't need one. This requirement shaped how the tablet was built, how iOS was designed, how apps would look and how folk would interact with them. Thanks to Jobs's insistence that Apple's designers would not assume a stylus would ever be available, they came up with a system that could happily work with a finger or a stylus.

    The whole premise that Apple will make a FrankenMacPad because they once said they wouldn't make a stylus is flawed – because Apple didn't say they wouldn't make a stylus. In fact, if anything, Jobs statement about the stylus proves he believes that the best devices have to be designed from the ground up to support one overall style of interaction for the best possible user experience, so if anything, the stylus quote (the real one) actually points to a future without a FrankenMacPad

    So, does this mean that Apple will never make a hybrid? No, of course not. As I've said, Apple can and does change its mind. But as things stand, they've already made prototypes; the ergonomics over long periods of use don't work. From my own experience, when I work with hybrids, I tend to just use them as laptops, and most of the folk around me tend to do the same thing. So is there is no current plan to make on? Nope. Sorry, there isn't. This Marzipan is not the first step to a hybrid, it's just another step along an endless road to make iOS and MacOS work better together, without compromising devices running either.

    "But if Apple doesn't think touchscreens belong on the Mac, then what about the Touch Bar huh? Yeah, clever clogs! What about that??"

    That is not a touch screen, it is a touch keyboard, and we know that Apple has loved touch keyboards for years.


    One other thing: Jobs's statement on the need for a stylus bears greater weight when you remember that the iPad was actually conceived before the iPhone.
    You're making a few assumptions here.

    1) That I believe that a hybrid device is coming. I have never said that. ARM-powered Macs != hybrid Mac and iPad. It's just a Mac, running macOS, with an ARM processor. The Intel Macs were no longer PowerPC Macs, they were Intel Macs.

    2) I am on record for well over a year saying that Marzipan isn't an emulation framework. Not just in multiple editorials, but on the AI podcast, and my own. AI is not some monolithic agency with planning meetings on common opinions and interpretations.

    Those two make the rest of your assumptions about this editorial problematic.
    The much feared "hybrid" device IS coming:   step by step, drip by drip, feature by feature, the iPad is becoming increasingly more powerful, flexible and "computer" like.  And, when it arrives, Apple will roll back the curtain and announce their revolutionary new product called:  "An iPad"....

    But I understand the fear of such a device on the part of Mac loyalists:  They realize that Apple has let the Mac line languish.   They fear it will be scrapped and replaced by what they call a "bastardised hybrid FrankenMacPad"....

    Apple has never been one to stick to convention because:  "That's the way it has always been...."   But, on the other hand, they also make the best product possible to meet the needs and desires of their customers....   That need is seldom an "either/or" proposition:  "Do you want cake or do you want ice cream?" / "Do you want a Mac?  Or, do you want an iPad?"    It's usually more like:  "I want it ALL!"

    Nonsense. Apple has said quite clearly that merging the two products is dumb. ”No. Of course not!” Yet some people just don’t like to admit when they’re wrong, so they use cognitive dissonance to dream up some alternate reality where they can still be right. You’re textbook. 
    edited June 9 Alex1Nfastasleep
  • Reply 68 of 127
    StrangeDaysStrangeDays Posts: 6,021member
    elijahg said:
    In reply to people claiming Intel hasn't pushed out CPUs with major speed bumps as the reason for a stale Mac line, that's not the point. The point is Apple's Mac lineup is chock full of old, overpriced hardware. For some reason - be it a possible ARM transition or Cook's obvious lack of interest in the Mac - they just don't update the Mac line anywhere near enough. Even if an ARM Mac was on the way, there's been ample time to produce updated Intel Macs. Have all internal combustion car manufacturers stopped because electric is on the way? Of course not. Just look at the Mini, not updated since 2014 and even back then it wasn't cheap. Now it's just extortionate. I fear Cook will use "lack of sales" to knock the lesser-sold Macs on the head, when the reason for lack of sales is how out of date and overpriced the hardware is. There's no excuse, Macs are too expensive. I've said this many-a-time before; in the mid to late 2000s they were really becoming excellent value and the sales were growing significantly, bucking the PC market trend. Now people are defending Apple's single-digit or even negative Mac growth. 


    It just shows Apple has no idea of the value of things when they price a phone at £1000+. I have bought a new iPhone every two years prior to the X, but I'm just not paying out that much for a phone. It's ridiculous. Despite being a shareholder, I wish the X had flopped. Perhaps that would have knocked some sense into Apple's pricing, and they would have realised they are charging too much. Troll fanboys bleat on about profit margins, but profit margins are no good if developers begin leaving your platform. That happened in the mid-90's. Apple's profit margin was still reasonable but they were selling barely anything. The Macs then were outdated and expensive. Just as they are now. It's unfortunate the iPhone seems to be such a huge distraction for Apple. Where are all the billions Apple's spending on R&D actually going?

    I know this has become a bit of a meme, but I really do feel Cook needs to go. Yes sales have grown under him, and he's obviously a very good businessman. But he is not a very good CEO. 
    You’re quite high.

    The fact that it’s been their best selling handset, a first in Apple history, proves that they’re not charging enough. 

    iOS is the strongest app platform and nobody has left it. It’s an iphone-first world, knockoffs second. 

    Cook has killed it as a CEO. Firing Cook would be completely idiotic, which is why it’s only discussed by armchair nobodies on websites like these. Not by anyone remotely related to Apple and the business of making money. 

    ...you’re not a shareholder. Nice try. 
    edited June 9 fastasleep
  • Reply 69 of 127
    tmaytmay Posts: 3,244member

    Rayz2016 said:
    k2kw said:

    Portent of the future

    Speaking about telling developers what to expect in the future, Apple previewed the fruits of project "Marzipan" at WWDC. Instead of a straight emulation layer, it turned out to be a framework and API for porting over iPad apps to the Mac.

    While I'm certain that this can be used for good or evil, skillfully or poorly, it isn't a regression. I also believe that it is an early step for migrating at least some of the Mac line to ARM, as the porting friction reduces even further as the technology is finally released to developers in full in 2019.

    But, like we said on the AppleInsider Podcast on Friday, this reveal of what is rumored to be called Marzipan is about step two of a twenty step process.

    "Marzipan is about step two of a twenty step process." - best description of what I believe will be an evolution of both iOS and macOS to create new and enhanced versions of both over many years. Now I believe that way down the road macComputers will support Touch and the iPad will support the mouse. It's like when Job's said "Stylus. yuck" but apple came out with a Pencil that is better. When the "merger" is done it will be without compromises and the experience on both will be better.

    Of course! Of course! I didn't see it at first, but now it's perfectly clear.

    For weeks, I've been wondering why AppleInsider has insisted that Apple was planning an emulation layer so that iOS apps can run on Macs, when the initial report they cribbed from, seasoned developers, experienced journalists, and just about everyone in between said that Apple was coming up with an API to make it easier for themselves and developers to port applications between iOS and MacOS. AI was getting it so badly wrong, I was starting to wonder if they were just saying it to generate page clicks. No they weren't; they really did just get it badly wrong.

    It made no sense at all to me (and I suspect it had @StrangeDays shaking his head in wonder too).

    But as it turns out, AppleInsider simply made the classic mistake of the inexperienced journalist and rookie police detective: they started with what they wanted to believe, and then worked in reverse to find evidence to make it fact.

    In this case, AppleInsider (and you) want to believe that Apple will merge the Mac and the iPad into some sort of bastardised hybrid FrankenMacPad. The reason that you want this is the same reason that is behind every odd request that shows up here: price. Rather than caring if this would actually work, what folk are thinking is "if Apple made such a machine, then I wouldn't have to buy two machines". Any compromises such a device would suffer would be complained about endlessly of course, but at least you got it for a cheaper outlay than buying a Mac and an iPad.

    But back to the original point: this pattern of thinking leads to two strange phenomena that are unique to the Mac world:

    1. X-Files Case Number 7737228728: The Internal Reality Twist. When a senior Apple exec goes on stage and drops a twenty-foot on-screen "NO" to the question of merging MacOS and iOS, what folk here think is "Well, it was an on-screen "NO", rather than a real, touchable "NO" pressed from Apple-crafted ceramic and honed smooth with lasers and a Jony Ive talkover explaining, in soothing British tones, how the massive "NO" was made. Since it's not a tangible "NO" then it's not a real "NO", so that means that they're planning on merging iOS and MacOS two years from now!"
    2. X-Files Case Number 7737228729: The Historical Reality Twist. When Steve Jobs said Apple won't do something; then years later, Apple does it, then this is proof that they can change their minds. 

    Actually, I'm going to stop there, because point #2 is perfectly reasonable: if Apple didn't change their minds when they've taken the wrong path, then the company would never have survived this long, and that is an indisputable fact. The problem is the Historical Twist part. In this case, folk tend to make up their own words for what was actually said, so that it can reinforce what they're actually wishing for. Here's a video:



    Jobs did not say "Stylus … yuk!"

    What Jobs actually said was, "If you need a stylus then you've already failed."

    The difference is subtle, but if you don't get it then you don't really understand why the iPad succeeded where so many before it did not. Jobs did not say that they would never have a stylus; what he actually said was that from day one the iPad was designed so that it wouldn't need one. This requirement shaped how the tablet was built, how iOS was designed, how apps would look and how folk would interact with them. Thanks to Jobs's insistence that Apple's designers would not assume a stylus would ever be available, they came up with a system that could happily work with a finger or a stylus.

    The whole premise that Apple will make a FrankenMacPad because they once said they wouldn't make a stylus is flawed – because Apple didn't say they wouldn't make a stylus. In fact, if anything, Jobs statement about the stylus proves he believes that the best devices have to be designed from the ground up to support one overall style of interaction for the best possible user experience, so if anything, the stylus quote (the real one) actually points to a future without a FrankenMacPad

    So, does this mean that Apple will never make a hybrid? No, of course not. As I've said, Apple can and does change its mind. But as things stand, they've already made prototypes; the ergonomics over long periods of use don't work. From my own experience, when I work with hybrids, I tend to just use them as laptops, and most of the folk around me tend to do the same thing. So is there is no current plan to make on? Nope. Sorry, there isn't. This Marzipan is not the first step to a hybrid, it's just another step along an endless road to make iOS and MacOS work better together, without compromising devices running either.

    "But if Apple doesn't think touchscreens belong on the Mac, then what about the Touch Bar huh? Yeah, clever clogs! What about that??"

    That is not a touch screen, it is a touch keyboard, and we know that Apple has loved touch keyboards for years.


    One other thing: Jobs's statement on the need for a stylus bears greater weight when you remember that the iPad was actually conceived before the iPhone.
    You're making a few assumptions here.

    1) That I believe that a hybrid device is coming. I have never said that. ARM-powered Macs != hybrid Mac and iPad. It's just a Mac, running macOS, with an ARM processor. The Intel Macs were no longer PowerPC Macs, they were Intel Macs.

    2) I am on record for well over a year saying that Marzipan isn't an emulation framework. Not just in multiple editorials, but on the AI podcast, and my own. AI is not some monolithic agency with planning meetings on common opinions and interpretations.

    Those two make the rest of your assumptions about this editorial problematic.
    on 2, this doesn’t change the fact that AI’s coverage of Marizpan has been completely wrong, as we politely pointed out in the comments of Marzipan stories, going so far as to provide helpful links to the details on why, such as the John Gruber posts and insight...an actual dev and a guy who talks to Phil Schiller and is way closer to the sources than the AI writer who kept saying it was (and i quote) about “iOS apps running on Mac”. No. We explained why that was wrong. Provided links. But still more articles about “iOS apps running on Mac”. Wuuut. 

    Maybe you had your own personal take and maybe AI doesn’t have editorial meetings to figure out what it thinks, but maybe as a news org it should. We did in the paper I worked for and my local paper does too. It makes sense to weight the opinions of those who understand the subject material heavier than those who do not.
    I for one am waiting for my iOS Masters to create the perfect Mac Book analog on ARM, for all of those people that don't require/want Windows compatibility*. Xcode facilitates that, and these frameworks are a path for iOS developers to bring new applications coming to the Mac. To me, this defines a lower cost device, and much more in line with what the education market wants.

    In the meantime, iPad Pro needs only a few UI and UX API's, and a keyboard with a trackpad to get to a similar space. Would that device be a hybrid?

    *In theory, an Apple ARM device might be able to run MS UWP applications, were that device to support necessary API's.
    edited June 9 GeorgeBMacAlex1N
  • Reply 70 of 127
    tallest skiltallest skil Posts: 43,399member
    Rayz2016 said:
    Jobs did not say "Stylus … yuk!"
    Uh…

    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4YY3MSaUqMg
    Jobs did not say that they would never have a stylus… ...Apple didn't say they wouldn't make a stylus.
    “No one wants a stylus, so let’s not use a stylus.”

    Alex1Nmuthuk_vanalingam
  • Reply 71 of 127
    nhtnht Posts: 4,308member

    wizard69 said:
    Even the title of this piece made me laugh at the ridiculousness of AI. I haven't seen any press stories that Apple is doomed. That's just one of those fake news approaches which does nothing to create a productive dialog.

    What I have seen is lots of press stories and user comments with concerns and intense frustration (from customers) that Apple's approach to hardware is plain wrong. We're in June and there has been no Mac hardware introductions this year and now it looks like we will wait until September / October until the next event for this to happen. At the same time the Mac Mini hasn't had an update for 4 years and the Mac Pro refresh is still a long way off. How can this be a good thing? There is no regular update cycle going on here to keep Apple's customers competitive with other platforms but a schedule driven around another set of priorities. 

    Has Intel been slow to introduce new chips... yes. Have Apple been even slower at introducing new computers..... yes! Gen 8 Intel chips are out and have been since October of last year and we haven't seen any iMac or laptop updates. My teenage son finds it hysterical that I would even think that Macs are competitive in the market for computers nowadays, given the 6 core mobile chip in his laptop. This is in essence Apple's problem. They believe their own marketing but less and less people, including the next generation of customers do.
    You are by all means welcome to disagree, but your argument is weakened by the opening attack. Accusations of "fake news" because you don't like an opinion doesn't serve presenting your own.

    We spoke about the Mac mini, and the Mac Pro, in this very piece. We've also spoken about them well before the WWDC.

    Hit Twitter, hit Reddit, hit this forum and others. It won't take you long to find the prediction of doom. You also don't get the emails, and social media commentary we do. 
    Honestly i have to agree with bubblefree.    First off this article pretty much is the definition of fake news.   The title and content seem to be crafted to protect Apple with skewed evidence that there is no problem.     To put it bluntly there is a massive problem with Apples inability to deliver updated hardware.  More importantly hardware rationally priced for the potential market.  
    You people really have a disorder. 

    “Fake news”

    “Where’s my Mini!”

    “Apple is greedy!”

    ...dude. Go. Get a Dell. Stop whining, and stop being a victim. What’s stopping you from pursuing happiness??
    Personal responsibility is for other folks.
    Alex1N
  • Reply 72 of 127
    Mike WuertheleMike Wuerthele Posts: 3,701administrator

    Rayz2016 said:
    k2kw said:

    Portent of the future

    Speaking about telling developers what to expect in the future, Apple previewed the fruits of project "Marzipan" at WWDC. Instead of a straight emulation layer, it turned out to be a framework and API for porting over iPad apps to the Mac.

    While I'm certain that this can be used for good or evil, skillfully or poorly, it isn't a regression. I also believe that it is an early step for migrating at least some of the Mac line to ARM, as the porting friction reduces even further as the technology is finally released to developers in full in 2019.

    But, like we said on the AppleInsider Podcast on Friday, this reveal of what is rumored to be called Marzipan is about step two of a twenty step process.

    "Marzipan is about step two of a twenty step process." - best description of what I believe will be an evolution of both iOS and macOS to create new and enhanced versions of both over many years. Now I believe that way down the road macComputers will support Touch and the iPad will support the mouse. It's like when Job's said "Stylus. yuck" but apple came out with a Pencil that is better. When the "merger" is done it will be without compromises and the experience on both will be better.

    Of course! Of course! I didn't see it at first, but now it's perfectly clear.

    For weeks, I've been wondering why AppleInsider has insisted that Apple was planning an emulation layer so that iOS apps can run on Macs, when the initial report they cribbed from, seasoned developers, experienced journalists, and just about everyone in between said that Apple was coming up with an API to make it easier for themselves and developers to port applications between iOS and MacOS. AI was getting it so badly wrong, I was starting to wonder if they were just saying it to generate page clicks. No they weren't; they really did just get it badly wrong.

    It made no sense at all to me (and I suspect it had @StrangeDays shaking his head in wonder too).

    But as it turns out, AppleInsider simply made the classic mistake of the inexperienced journalist and rookie police detective: they started with what they wanted to believe, and then worked in reverse to find evidence to make it fact.

    In this case, AppleInsider (and you) want to believe that Apple will merge the Mac and the iPad into some sort of bastardised hybrid FrankenMacPad. The reason that you want this is the same reason that is behind every odd request that shows up here: price. Rather than caring if this would actually work, what folk are thinking is "if Apple made such a machine, then I wouldn't have to buy two machines". Any compromises such a device would suffer would be complained about endlessly of course, but at least you got it for a cheaper outlay than buying a Mac and an iPad.

    But back to the original point: this pattern of thinking leads to two strange phenomena that are unique to the Mac world:

    1. X-Files Case Number 7737228728: The Internal Reality Twist. When a senior Apple exec goes on stage and drops a twenty-foot on-screen "NO" to the question of merging MacOS and iOS, what folk here think is "Well, it was an on-screen "NO", rather than a real, touchable "NO" pressed from Apple-crafted ceramic and honed smooth with lasers and a Jony Ive talkover explaining, in soothing British tones, how the massive "NO" was made. Since it's not a tangible "NO" then it's not a real "NO", so that means that they're planning on merging iOS and MacOS two years from now!"
    2. X-Files Case Number 7737228729: The Historical Reality Twist. When Steve Jobs said Apple won't do something; then years later, Apple does it, then this is proof that they can change their minds. 

    Actually, I'm going to stop there, because point #2 is perfectly reasonable: if Apple didn't change their minds when they've taken the wrong path, then the company would never have survived this long, and that is an indisputable fact. The problem is the Historical Twist part. In this case, folk tend to make up their own words for what was actually said, so that it can reinforce what they're actually wishing for. Here's a video:



    Jobs did not say "Stylus … yuk!"

    What Jobs actually said was, "If you need a stylus then you've already failed."

    The difference is subtle, but if you don't get it then you don't really understand why the iPad succeeded where so many before it did not. Jobs did not say that they would never have a stylus; what he actually said was that from day one the iPad was designed so that it wouldn't need one. This requirement shaped how the tablet was built, how iOS was designed, how apps would look and how folk would interact with them. Thanks to Jobs's insistence that Apple's designers would not assume a stylus would ever be available, they came up with a system that could happily work with a finger or a stylus.

    The whole premise that Apple will make a FrankenMacPad because they once said they wouldn't make a stylus is flawed – because Apple didn't say they wouldn't make a stylus. In fact, if anything, Jobs statement about the stylus proves he believes that the best devices have to be designed from the ground up to support one overall style of interaction for the best possible user experience, so if anything, the stylus quote (the real one) actually points to a future without a FrankenMacPad

    So, does this mean that Apple will never make a hybrid? No, of course not. As I've said, Apple can and does change its mind. But as things stand, they've already made prototypes; the ergonomics over long periods of use don't work. From my own experience, when I work with hybrids, I tend to just use them as laptops, and most of the folk around me tend to do the same thing. So is there is no current plan to make on? Nope. Sorry, there isn't. This Marzipan is not the first step to a hybrid, it's just another step along an endless road to make iOS and MacOS work better together, without compromising devices running either.

    "But if Apple doesn't think touchscreens belong on the Mac, then what about the Touch Bar huh? Yeah, clever clogs! What about that??"

    That is not a touch screen, it is a touch keyboard, and we know that Apple has loved touch keyboards for years.


    One other thing: Jobs's statement on the need for a stylus bears greater weight when you remember that the iPad was actually conceived before the iPhone.
    You're making a few assumptions here.

    1) That I believe that a hybrid device is coming. I have never said that. ARM-powered Macs != hybrid Mac and iPad. It's just a Mac, running macOS, with an ARM processor. The Intel Macs were no longer PowerPC Macs, they were Intel Macs.

    2) I am on record for well over a year saying that Marzipan isn't an emulation framework. Not just in multiple editorials, but on the AI podcast, and my own. AI is not some monolithic agency with planning meetings on common opinions and interpretations.

    Those two make the rest of your assumptions about this editorial problematic.
    on 2, this doesn’t change the fact that AI’s coverage of Marizpan has been completely wrong, as we politely pointed out in the comments of Marzipan stories, going so far as to provide helpful links to the details on why, such as the John Gruber posts and insight...an actual dev and a guy who talks to Phil Schiller and is way closer to the sources than the AI writer who kept saying it was (and i quote) about “iOS apps running on Mac”. No. We explained why that was wrong. Provided links. But still more articles about “iOS apps running on Mac”. Wuuut. 

    Maybe you had your own personal take and maybe AI doesn’t have editorial meetings to figure out what it thinks, but maybe as a news org it should. We did in the paper I worked for and my local paper does too. It makes sense to weight the opinions of those who understand the subject material heavier than those who do not.
    Thanks for the suggestion, but pass. I'd rather be able to dissent, and write about it.

    And, as a reminder, Gurman's original prediction, one of the names cited heavily earlier in the comment suggestion said exactly the same thing that the AI story did.
    Alex1N
  • Reply 73 of 127
    charlitunacharlituna Posts: 7,196member
    personally i'm thrilled they didn't release any hardware at WWDC. I have wanted it to be software and only software focused for ages. they can have a separate keynote for hardware
    GeorgeBMacAlex1N
  • Reply 74 of 127
    charlitunacharlituna Posts: 7,196member
    cropr said:

    •  The moment you want to develop a high quality Mac app, making using of the features of a Mac, you will need more than just repackaging the iOS app


    the whole UIKit situation isn't about making 'high quality mac apps' but rather for those folks that want to port their iOS apps to a desktop. like many games, Procreate etc. even facebook and twitter might actually create desktop apps rather than just using safari (for those that want to go that route) if it was easier
    GeorgeBMac
  • Reply 75 of 127
    nunzynunzy Posts: 662member
    elijahg said:
    In reply to people claiming Intel hasn't pushed out CPUs with major speed bumps as the reason for a stale Mac line, that's not the point. The point is Apple's Mac lineup is chock full of old, overpriced hardware. For some reason - be it a possible ARM transition or Cook's obvious lack of interest in the Mac - they just don't update the Mac line anywhere near enough. Even if an ARM Mac was on the way, there's been ample time to produce updated Intel Macs. Have all internal combustion car manufacturers stopped because electric is on the way? Of course not. Just look at the Mini, not updated since 2014 and even back then it wasn't cheap. Now it's just extortionate. I fear Cook will use "lack of sales" to knock the lesser-sold Macs on the head, when the reason for lack of sales is how out of date and overpriced the hardware is. There's no excuse, Macs are too expensive. I've said this many-a-time before; in the mid to late 2000s they were really becoming excellent value and the sales were growing significantly, bucking the PC market trend. Now people are defending Apple's single-digit or even negative Mac growth. 


    It just shows Apple has no idea of the value of things when they price a phone at £1000+. I have bought a new iPhone every two years prior to the X, but I'm just not paying out that much for a phone. It's ridiculous. Despite being a shareholder, I wish the X had flopped. Perhaps that would have knocked some sense into Apple's pricing, and they would have realised they are charging too much. Troll fanboys bleat on about profit margins, but profit margins are no good if developers begin leaving your platform. That happened in the mid-90's. Apple's profit margin was still reasonable but they were selling barely anything. The Macs then were outdated and expensive. Just as they are now. It's unfortunate the iPhone seems to be such a huge distraction for Apple. Where are all the billions Apple's spending on R&D actually going?

    I know this has become a bit of a meme, but I really do feel Cook needs to go. Yes sales have grown under him, and he's obviously a very good businessman. But he is not a very good CEO. 
    You’re quite high.

    The fact that it’s been their best selling handset, a first in Apple history, proves that they’re not charging enough. 

    iOS is the strongest app platform and nobody has left it. It’s an iphone-first world, knockoffs second. 

    Cook has killed it as a CEO. Firing Cook would be completely idiotic, which is why it’s only discussed by armchair nobodies on websites like these. Not by anyone remotely related to Apple and the business of making money. 

    ...you’re not a shareholder. Nice try. 
    Tim makes bigger profits than any corporate CEO in history.
    fastasleep
  • Reply 76 of 127
    lewchenkolewchenko Posts: 66member
    You know, it's ok to criticise Apple when they don't knock the ball out of the park.

    Something Appleinsider needs to realise.

    I personally thought the event sucked this year and delivered very little of valuable features in terms of the software side of things or other stuff. Especially screen time management in iOS12.... give me a break. Its a non issue that didn't need a fix or more bloat adding to iOS to address. 

    And the lack of hardware is simply disappointing. In the article you said it was Intel's fault there were no new mac book pros. Really ? So how come Dell, HP, Lenovo all have 8th gen machine out to buy right now. (With better keyboards as well).

    At this point Im disappointed in Apple,  but also disappointed in Apple Insider for once again not calling Apple out when it fails. 




  • Reply 77 of 127
    clarker99clarker99 Posts: 119member
    There is so much whining in this thread. I want to see purchase receipts when Apple updates anything across the Mac line-up /s

    I own a 2011 Macbook Pro. Not a sniff of trouble. If/when it fails... I am prob not buying another computer. My wife and I barely touch it. Would much rather put $ into iOS devices and cloud services bc we actually use them. Anecdotally, there seems to be a large base of people which are doing the same thing. 

    Apple releases Mac Pro and iMac Pros and people complain about price and the specs and well everything. Apple cant win even when they do release products. 

    The constant complaining about price of apple products makes me laugh. Like a lot. They have always been expensive! This is nothing new. Yet, always becomes a reason why apple is doing it wrong.  Price is the thing that Apple does extremely right.  Consumers have choices and yet Apple continues to sell hardware. 

    Anyway, I hope you all get your perfect machine and the perfect price point so the AI message boards only ring of positivity :)
    Alex1Nfastasleep
  • Reply 78 of 127
    clarker99clarker99 Posts: 119member
    eightzero said:
    clarker99 said:
    eightzero said:
    I wonder how the people that bought $14k Series 0 Edition Apple Watches now feel about them being obsolete. But I suppose if you are spending $14k on a watch, you don't really care.

    I guess I don't know what to make of the trend I'm seeing about exciting new Apple stuff coming out on a schedule largely controlled by others. I might get excited about an iPhone upgrade if I could have wireless CarPlay, but that seems to all be in the hands of the CarPlay compatible onboard systems (in my case, Ford Sync, and it aint happening.) New Mac Minis will now wait for  Marzipan to take 18 more of its 20 steps, and that's because Intel something something something. Apple turned displays over to other people, and as far as I can tell, they sorta dorked that up. Similar situation for wifi base stations: no more airports, so I'm just sorta hoping mine dont fail, and that Apple does actually have someone doing security updates for them. I could use a replacement iPad mini, but...

    While I get that Apple has business reasons for the decisions they make, all these decisions seem to be unfavorable to products I am interested in. HomePod? Meh. Not at that price, and the subscription it generally requires for full functionality. $5k iMacs? Nah. MacPro? I don't make movies. ATV? Eh. Mine is fine, collecting dust, in favor of my TTCL Roku set. $3k laptops? A new iMac to get Mojave so I can have Dark Mode? No thanks. But hey, I can still get 50GB of iCloud storage for $.99, so I can share my desktop and documents.

    YMMV. I'm sure I will be told this is all my fault. 
    whole lot of whining for a guy who isnt interested in what Apple has to offer. Or maybe you are but cant afford it? Either way, you are not the target market.
    Ayup...my fault. Called it.
    I really hope Apple builds you the perfect products for your needs for extremely cheap. 🤞
  • Reply 79 of 127
    Mike WuertheleMike Wuerthele Posts: 3,701administrator
    lewchenko said:
    You know, it's ok to criticise Apple when they don't knock the ball out of the park.

    Something Appleinsider needs to realise.

    I personally thought the event sucked this year and delivered very little of valuable features in terms of the software side of things or other stuff. Especially screen time management in iOS12.... give me a break. Its a non issue that didn't need a fix or more bloat adding to iOS to address. 

    And the lack of hardware is simply disappointing. In the article you said it was Intel's fault there were no new mac book pros. Really ? So how come Dell, HP, Lenovo all have 8th gen machine out to buy right now. (With better keyboards as well).

    At this point Im disappointed in Apple,  but also disappointed in Apple Insider for once again not calling Apple out when it fails. 




    https://appleinsider.com/articles/18/04/11/apple-needs-to-stop-pre-announcing-products-like-the-mac-pro-and-airpower-that-wont-be-available-for-months-or-years


    Get outta here with this garbage. Regarding "knocking the ball out of the park." Over a season, a ball player will do that one in 12 or so times, assuming he's a slugger and bats four times per game. Many at the MLB level will do so only once in 30.
    edited June 9 GeorgeBMacAlex1Nfastasleepking editor the grate
  • Reply 80 of 127
    bigpicsbigpics Posts: 1,349member
    evilution said:
    2019 will be the end of Intel powered Macs.
    Apple confirms that Mojave is the last MacOS to support 32bit software so I think the 64bit only update next year will contain code to run on A series chips or will possibly only run on A series Macs. It will cut the reliance on Intel and ensure we see more updates to the platform.

    The iPhone works so well because Apple controls hardware and software. As soon as Apple control the iMac processor, we'll see the future.
    I'll guess 2020.  

    And before then I'm begging for a MacBook Pro I can actually type on (worst typing experience ever - loud, inaccurate) and keep typing on if I drop a crumb on it without spending $700 to fix it.  

    (PS: rest assured, I will drop crumbs on any computer I spend a big chunk of my days on.)

    Since that will meet every need I have planned, they can then bring out the first few gens of their post-Intel line and I'll be fine.

    Plus since not until the end of the year, 32GB is very much in my sights.

    Meanwhile, Apple's kept me on a sluggish MBA and forgone at least $4,000 it already could have had from me over the last four years.  

    Both of our losses.
    edited June 9 elijahg
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