Why macOS Mojave requires Metal -- and deprecates OpenGL

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  • Reply 61 of 133
    MacProMacPro Posts: 17,588member
    jimh2 said:
    MacPro said:
    Very informative, thanks.

    Question, what is the impact on the latest Macs running Windows 10 and beyond under Boot Camp, I assume none and Window will just continue as is, even on the latest Macs?
    No impact as Windows will continue to use OpenGL and work as it always has. 
    I said and beyond ... maybe Macs will change hardware.
  • Reply 62 of 133
    MacProMacPro Posts: 17,588member

    jimh2 said:
    MacPro said:
    Very informative, thanks.

    Question, what is the impact on the latest Macs running Windows 10 and beyond under Boot Camp, I assume none and Window will just continue as is, even on the latest Macs?
    No impact as Windows will continue to use OpenGL and work as it always has. 
    ... what if Macs have their own GPUs one day?  
  • Reply 63 of 133
    cgWerkscgWerks Posts: 1,646member
    elijahg said:
    So what happens to the applications and games where OpenGL is used for "porting low level code between Linux, Windows and Macs"? In any case OpenGL isn't used to "port low level code", it is the low level code. For tools such as AutoCad, Sketchup, Kicad, Eagle, Blender, GIMP etc ...
    And, that's just a start... what about Maya, Houdini, Mono, Rhino, Cinema4D, Mari, VectorWorks.... and hundreds of other smaller apps and utilities. I suppose a few of these might consider Metal. It seems Cinema4D has been working on it, but from some threads I've read, it isn't stable or faster. But, I'm guessing many of these companies will just decide not to support the Mac any longer.
    williamlondonelijahgAlex1N
  • Reply 64 of 133
    cgWerkscgWerks Posts: 1,646member
    loopless said:
    Deprecating OpenGL will be the 'kiss of death' for many CAE and CAD programs on the Mac. CAE/CAD software has different needs to games. Typically large amount of 3D data with simple rendering - and OpenGL does just fine, thank you.
    Yea, and Metal could be far worse depending on how it is tuned. There is a big difference between quick shading on low poly scenes for gaming and high-complexity type work done in CAD or 3D rendering, etc. Is Metal tuned for that kind of stuff? Can it even handle it at all?

    For example, I used to regularly work with 3-4 Million poly scenes, and some software apps just couldn't handle it. It makes me wonder what the strengths/weaknesses of OpenGL/CL vs Metal are.

    Plus, what does this say about performance?
    http://barefeats.com/opencl_v_metal_resolve.html

    tomahawk said:
    It is interesting that at the same time Microsoft is adding Linux support within Windows, Apple is doing something that might eliminate the compatibility they've had for years.  One of the strong selling points for Mac's with OS X in the scientific community has always been they could run their Unix/Linux programs and Microsoft Office at the same time.  Removing OpenGL will break many of those programs and help push the science community to Windows, where they can now run their Unix/Linux programs and Office.
    Well, the tables are turned now, and the suits are in charge. One has to wonder if this is a move, given iOS predominance, to get developers moving towards something proprietary and Apple.

    techconc said:
    Right now, the only benefit of continuing to support OpenGL is not to break old applications that have not been updated and ported to Metal. It has already been 4 years now since Metal came out. The writing was on the wall. Apple will likely keep OpenGL in the current deprecated state for another release or two of the OS. After that, I would expect it will be gone. The benefits are that all programs that are running on your machine will be much better optimized. At some point, it's time to flush out the stale garbage that hasn't been updated in years. All of the major players are on board. Not just games, but major apps from Adobe, etc. In the end, I believe this is a good thing for the platform overall.
    It isn't just old applications though. It's nearly all the CAD, engineering, 3D modeling and animation, graphic production utilities, etc. Or, in other words, most of the high-end creative, engineering, and scientific industries.

    And... can you really tell me there would be benefits to moving to Metal? I don't know enough about it to say either way, but I would wonder if it is as robust.

    georgie01 said:
    Rather than indulge in presumptuous ideas based on passionate feelings, it is a lot more worthwhile to guess that Apple developed Metal because they felt they knew how to get more performance out of their own hardware than an ‘open standard’ could ...
    See my link above. I wonder if that is the case. Maybe someone here actually knows about Metal vs OpenGL/CL and strengths/weaknesses/limitations, etc. Until we know more about that, we're all just guessing. As I said above, though, running something like a game is quite different than running high-end 3D CAD or rendering.

    auxio said:
    1) My wife needed a new laptop.  Her needs from a laptop are communication via email, social media, etc, browsing the web, light graphic design work, and for it to be as easy to handle as possible (small, light, doesn't heat up).  I had no hesitation in buying a MacBook Air for her because I knew that I would need to be doing tech support for the machine whenever anything went wrong.  And, from experience, things go wrong far more often on PCs than Macs (far too many configuration issues).  My time is valuable to me, and so the slightly higher cost of a MBA vs a PC are well worth the headache and time savings from supporting that machine in the long run.  Not to mention that she absolutely loves it.
    Unfortunately, my family tech-support time has gone up exponentially in the last decade, so I'm going to soon have to start questioning how much more it would be on Windows vs the downsides of staying on Mac. Unless Apple gets their butts in gear, the lines will soon cross. I'm hoping we see new good hardware, Mojave and beyond are actual solid improvements, and they start cleaning up the mess they made trying to merge iOS and cloud services into macOS... but I need to see some real progress being made.
    muthuk_vanalingamwilliamlondonelijahgAlex1N
  • Reply 65 of 133
    cgWerkscgWerks Posts: 1,646member
    Quad849 said:
    OpenGL sucks, get over it, no one ones that caveman technology ...
    Just most of the major (and minor) CAD, 3D, scientific, and engineering apps?
    Alex1Nelijahg
  • Reply 66 of 133
    Rayz2016Rayz2016 Posts: 4,220member
    nht said:
    wizard69 said:
    It is built in obsolescence. Windows will run on 15 year old computers while Mac OS will refuse to run on any Mac built more than six years ago. There is really no technical reason why Mac OS could not run on a 2010 Intel CPU. These are decisions made at the top of the company. Apple does what is best for Apple and not for its customers. The reason developers are not up in arms about Apple dropping OpenGL and OpenCL is that it really happened years ago when Apple stopped updating it. Mac OS is now about five years out of date. When you look at the extremely poor library of AAA games available on the Mac, know that it is Apple's poor hardware features and lack of cross platform software support that is the major reason. Of course people don't buy Macs to play games. Pretty soon people won't buy Macs at all.
    I've been hearing this for 15 years, and yet, here we are.

    When does "pretty soon" arrive?
    Actually for me "pretty soon" arrived this year in January.   Not so much because of Metal but rather due to Apples apathy with respect to the Mac lineup.  That is the hardware is either so outdated or of such low quality that my money for a new laptop went someplace else.    I really hated to do that because there is a lot to like about Mac OS.  The problem is i can program in Python on just about any machine these days and my other uses only occasionally leverage the full potential of the systems. Notably this is delivered on a laptop with modern hardware (better CPU, far better GPU, ports that keep my legacy hardware usable, a great screen &etc), all on a laptop that is $700 less that Apples solutions.  

    So yeah "pretty soon" is already here.   Yeah Windows sucks, there is no debate there but Linux can be a good alternative.   All i can say is that Apple must start updating its hardware because software is only part of the machine.  It has been more than a decade since Apples machines have been such a pathetic value.   I really cant tolerate price increases on such poor machines either.    So yeah there are problems in Mac land.  
    Rubbish. I bought a rMBP a few years ago and it's a kickass machine, making your claims of "pathetic value" quite absurd. Just more foot-stomping from the crowd that wants it noooooowwww.
    Pretty soon he's going to be Avon...no new Apple gear in a decade but somehow thinks that his opinion matters about how terrible Apple is.
    Why is it that these people who threaten to leave never do?

    watto_cobrawilliamlondonAlex1N
  • Reply 67 of 133
    Rayz2016Rayz2016 Posts: 4,220member
    cgWerks said:

    Plus, what does this say about performance?
    http://barefeats.com/opencl_v_metal_resolve.html

    Well it could say a number of things:

    It could say that OpenCL is faster than Metal
    It could say that you should state what versions of the OS you’re running on. 
    It could say that benchmarking beta software is pointless. 

    But it most importantly, it could say that you need to test more than one application to get an accurate view on performance. 

    williamlondonAlex1N
  • Reply 68 of 133
    Rayz2016Rayz2016 Posts: 4,220member
    netrox said:
    It would be nice if Apple spends more time focusing on improving the scalability of UX using Metal. I have 5K and if I use native resolution, it is really tiny but with its "default" resolution, the "resolution" are reduced by 2x but here's the thing, when you select other resolutions, the elements of UX don't really scale well and as a result, performance is reduced. I am not sure why Apple hasn't bothered with that as we will have more and more hiDPI monitors of different sizes. With hiDPI monitors, the UX has to scale well to a user's needs and perform natively. Also, if you use "default" resolution, the OSX will display images in applications matching to DPI of monitor BUT if you open them in other resolutions and not native resolution, the image is not corresponding to the actual DPI of monitor!
    Worth reporting. 
    watto_cobraAlex1N
  • Reply 69 of 133
    mike54mike54 Posts: 256member
    I'm all in for Metal and I wish Apple would push it even harder. But...

    You wrote "If you've owned a Mac for 8-9 years, Mojave offers a good reason to upgrade your hardware and join the modern Metal party."
    I would upgrade if Apple makes a reasonably priced headless mac with decent graphics. I'm still using this 2009 Mac Mini because there are no macs available to buy (a 4 year computer still on the shelf is not a contender). I don't get it, Apple is putting effort into this, but there is no hardware to buy. I would come to the conclusion that upper level management in Apple cares less about the macs than the lower level managers and engineers do. 
    williamlondonelijahgcgWerksAlex1Nsmalm
  • Reply 70 of 133
    The hard fact of dropping OpenGL support is that over time macOS users will lose access to a whole class of applications now available to them. 

    If Apple think this loss can be compensated by making another class of less powerful iOS applications accessible to macOS users, they are delusional.
    williamlondonelijahgcgWerksAlex1N
  • Reply 71 of 133
    It is built in obsolescence. Windows will run on 15 year old computers while Mac OS will refuse to run on any Mac built more than six years ago. There is really no technical reason why Mac OS could not run on a 2010 Intel CPU. These are decisions made at the top of the company. Apple does what is best for Apple and not for its customers. The reason developers are not up in arms about Apple dropping OpenGL and OpenCL is that it really happened years ago when Apple stopped updating it. Mac OS is now about five years out of date. When you look at the extremely poor library of AAA games available on the Mac, know that it is Apple's poor hardware features and lack of cross platform software support that is the major reason. Of course people don't buy Macs to play games. Pretty soon people won't buy Macs at all.
    I've been hearing this for 15 years, and yet, here we are.

    When does "pretty soon" arrive?
    Well, it starts right now for me, an owner of a 2011 Mac Mini. What do you suggest I do? Buy a 2014 Mac Mini, which is marginally better than the 2011 version and has seen no updates since then? And please don’t suggest I buy an iMac or MacBook Pro!! I just bought an iPad Pro 12.9” version. Apple kind of gave me the warm and fuzzies about the iPad Pro as an actual working device. And so far it’s been great. But they refuse to open it up to more features found in desktops, hence the Mac Mini as a stop gap companion. Apple said the Mac Mini was in “their future”. Whose future? I can’t run the new version of Pixelmator without Metal!! I’m skewered!!!
    elijahgcgWerksAlex1N
  • Reply 72 of 133
    frantisekfrantisek Posts: 347member
    frantisek said:
    Can someone with deeper insight tell whether older GPUs are that bad that they could not support Metal if "anybody" would made drives? Or count with them when coding Metal? Older versions MS DirectX is running on much worse HW I woudl say.
    This is really a complicated discussion. In short, Metal relies on newer calls to the hardware that some older cards don't have. 

    So, it's less a "this much performance and no less" and more a "just can't support Metal in silicon" situation.
    So there were my second question. Could they count with older HW when codding Metal? Aled leave older HW say with Metal 2? I would be not mad not having Group FaceTime calls as I do rare any then support calls to my mom.
    Make me right but directX is there since 486 processors?
    Alex1N
  • Reply 73 of 133
    kbeekbee Posts: 5member
    georgie01 said:
    It doesn’t mean anyone needs to like Metal, but complaining Apple is anti-consumer because of it is rather absurd.

    Oh, and btw, I have yet to see an app based on Qt that doesn’t have a sucky UI/UX. It’s a framework for developers who either don’t have the resources to produce a proper UI for different platforms or who lack taste or understanding. That’s not a good example to be using to support your point.
    It doesn't matter ho you feel about Qt UIs. Qt was just an example and it is strong in the embedded world.
    Apple isn't Anti-Consumer, it is Anti-Developer. MacOS was always great because of "just works". Science and research are closely tight to Open Standards and Apple is dropping OpenGL/never implementing Vulkan because Apple doesn't want to implement all the functionality on their custom silicon.

    In a world that is more and more cloud driven open standards matter. macOS has always been a impressive platform for rapid prototyping but I never will implement a Metal shader for a prototype when an OpenGL/Vulkan shader is needed. Metal may be nice but it is a proprietary technology for a niche market - who wants to buy a 18000$ iMac Pro that isn't even capable of displaying a simple OpenGL/WebGL application using the latest OpenGL standard?
     
    elijahgavon b7cgWerksAlex1N
  • Reply 74 of 133
    [quote]Similarly, apps that use OpenCL for computational tasks should now adopt Metal and Metal Performance Shaders[/quote] Pfft. No one is going to use MPS for compute workloads. No one.
    edited June 29 cgWerksAlex1N
  • Reply 75 of 133
    kbeekbee Posts: 5member
    Why is it that these people who threaten to leave never do?

    Times have changed now. For myself I used and loved Apple products for 12 years now and made some nice money with Apple - but now I'm desperate to replace my MBP and I waited for a new Mac Pro this year/last exit. What should I buy? No chance to buy a laptop with less than 32GB and no chance to buy a laptop with a soldered SSD. Those two points are deal breakers. I would accept that I'll get no sdcard slot, no ports, no function keys combined with a weak GPU.
    But deprecating OpenGL forces me to think about Linux/Windows on a nice Dell XPS, Precision/Thinkpad and even Huawei is now building nice laptops (the Matebook X is a nice replacement for some Apple products). 
    williamlondonelijahgcgWerksAlex1N
  • Reply 76 of 133
    nhtnht Posts: 4,228member
    kbee said:
    georgie01 said:
    It doesn’t mean anyone needs to like Metal, but complaining Apple is anti-consumer because of it is rather absurd.

    Oh, and btw, I have yet to see an app based on Qt that doesn’t have a sucky UI/UX. It’s a framework for developers who either don’t have the resources to produce a proper UI for different platforms or who lack taste or understanding. That’s not a good example to be using to support your point.
    It doesn't matter ho you feel about Qt UIs. Qt was just an example and it is strong in the embedded world.

    Apple isn't Anti-Consumer, it is Anti-Developer. MacOS was always great because of "just works". Science and research are closely tight to Open Standards and Apple is dropping OpenGL/never implementing Vulkan because Apple doesn't want to implement all the functionality on their custom silicon.

    In a world that is more and more cloud driven open standards matter. macOS has always been a impressive platform for rapid prototyping but I never will implement a Metal shader for a prototype when an OpenGL/Vulkan shader is needed. Metal may be nice but it is a proprietary technology for a niche market - who wants to buy a 18000$ iMac Pro that isn't even capable of displaying a simple OpenGL/WebGL application using the latest OpenGL standard?
     

    1. Vulkan already runs on MacOS (via MoltenVK).  4 pages into this discussion it should be very obvious there isn't a problem with Vulkan on MacOS moving forward.
    2. Apple isn't anti-developer.  That's an especially stupid assertion right after WWDC.
    3. Science and research are tied to high priced proprietary packages (MATLAB/Simulink, IDL, etc) as much as open packages like python (numPy, sciPy) and R.  All of which runs on MacOS.
    4. No one cares what you do or don't implement in metal.  As far as Metal being proprietary so is CUDA.  OpenCL is dead.  How much OpenCL will end up in Vukan Compute is kinda still TBD.  SPIR-V might be as far as it goes since this year they seem to have backed off on the 2017 OpenCL/Vulkan Compute API convergence statement with "OpenCL will continue to move forward in its own trajectory" when Trevett was asked about it at the Vulcan 1.1 release [1].
    roundaboutnowwilliamlondonAlex1N
  • Reply 77 of 133
    auxioauxio Posts: 1,880member
    jmulchino said:
    It is built in obsolescence. Windows will run on 15 year old computers while Mac OS will refuse to run on any Mac built more than six years ago. There is really no technical reason why Mac OS could not run on a 2010 Intel CPU. These are decisions made at the top of the company. Apple does what is best for Apple and not for its customers. The reason developers are not up in arms about Apple dropping OpenGL and OpenCL is that it really happened years ago when Apple stopped updating it. Mac OS is now about five years out of date. When you look at the extremely poor library of AAA games available on the Mac, know that it is Apple's poor hardware features and lack of cross platform software support that is the major reason. Of course people don't buy Macs to play games. Pretty soon people won't buy Macs at all.
    I've been hearing this for 15 years, and yet, here we are.

    When does "pretty soon" arrive?
    Well, it starts right now for me, an owner of a 2011 Mac Mini. What do you suggest I do? Buy a 2014 Mac Mini, which is marginally better than the 2011 version and has seen no updates since then? And please don’t suggest I buy an iMac or MacBook Pro!! I just bought an iPad Pro 12.9” version. Apple kind of gave me the warm and fuzzies about the iPad Pro as an actual working device. And so far it’s been great. But they refuse to open it up to more features found in desktops, hence the Mac Mini as a stop gap companion. Apple said the Mac Mini was in “their future”. Whose future? I can’t run the new version of Pixelmator without Metal!! I’m skewered!!!
    And yet, somehow a couple of months ago before anything was announced, you were able to do everything you needed to do.  So an announcement about an OS update which hasn't even been released yet somehow changed that?  Give me a break.
    williamlondonAlex1N
  • Reply 78 of 133
    lmaclmac Posts: 154member
    Pretty soon people won't buy Macs at all. Well it’s not like Apple is making new Macs that anyone wants. Shitty laptop keyboards, overpriced Black iMac, outdated locked down pro and hobbled mini. Tired of waiting for a new Mac.
    williamlondon
  • Reply 79 of 133
    Mike WuertheleMike Wuerthele Posts: 3,336administrator
    lmac said:
    Pretty soon people won't buy Macs at all. Well it’s not like Apple is making new Macs that anyone wants. Shitty laptop keyboards, overpriced Black iMac, outdated locked down pro and hobbled mini. Tired of waiting for a new Mac.
    Oh good, this again.
    SoliroundaboutnowwilliamlondonAlex1N
  • Reply 80 of 133
    nhtnht Posts: 4,228member

    [quote]Similarly, apps that use OpenCL for computational tasks should now adopt Metal and Metal Performance Shaders[/quote] Pfft. No one is going to use MPS for compute workloads. No one.

    I'd do the "Amazing, every word..." gif again but that would just become annoying.
     
    https://stackoverflow.com/questions/49420677/transforming-mpsnnimagenode-using-metal-performance-shader

    https://pdfs.semanticscholar.org/5d1d/5e0ac8c670afcc575e9aae425f3f14f5f9b6.pdf

    https://github.com/tensorflow/tensorflow/issues/7958

    https://github.com/caffe2/caffe2/pull/215

    http://www.mattrajca.com/2016/11/26/speeding-up-tensorflow-with-metal-performance-shaders.html

    CoreML

    https://www.analyticsvidhya.com/blog/2017/09/build-machine-learning-iphone-apple-coreml/

    I was looking at tensorflow on an iPhone a couple years ago but I don't have a lot of time for my own hobby projects anymore.
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