Why macOS Mojave requires Metal -- and deprecates OpenGL

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Comments

  • Reply 81 of 133
    Rayz2016Rayz2016 Posts: 4,218member
    kbee said:
    Why is it that these people who threaten to leave never do?

    Times have changed now. For myself I used and loved Apple products for 12 years now and made some nice money with Apple - but now I'm desperate to replace my MBP and I waited for a new Mac Pro this year/last exit. What should I buy? No chance to buy a laptop with less than 32GB and no chance to buy a laptop with a soldered SSD. Those two points are deal breakers. I would accept that I'll get no sdcard slot, no ports, no function keys combined with a weak GPU.
    But deprecating OpenGL forces me to think about Linux/Windows on a nice Dell XPS, Precision/Thinkpad and even Huawei is now building nice laptops (the Matebook X is a nice replacement for some Apple products). 
    Bye bye then. 

    I say that knowing full well that you’ll wait for eternity for a machine that Apple will never build. 
    williamlondonAlex1N
  • Reply 82 of 133
    Rayz2016Rayz2016 Posts: 4,218member

    lmac said:
    Pretty soon people won't buy Macs at all. Well it’s not like Apple is making new Macs that anyone wants. Shitty laptop keyboards, overpriced Black iMac, outdated locked down pro and hobbled mini. Tired of waiting for a new Mac.
    No one is making you wait for anything. Move to Windows. 
    williamlondonAlex1N
  • Reply 83 of 133
    avon b7avon b7 Posts: 2,718member
    nht said:
    wizard69 said:
    It is built in obsolescence. Windows will run on 15 year old computers while Mac OS will refuse to run on any Mac built more than six years ago. There is really no technical reason why Mac OS could not run on a 2010 Intel CPU. These are decisions made at the top of the company. Apple does what is best for Apple and not for its customers. The reason developers are not up in arms about Apple dropping OpenGL and OpenCL is that it really happened years ago when Apple stopped updating it. Mac OS is now about five years out of date. When you look at the extremely poor library of AAA games available on the Mac, know that it is Apple's poor hardware features and lack of cross platform software support that is the major reason. Of course people don't buy Macs to play games. Pretty soon people won't buy Macs at all.
    I've been hearing this for 15 years, and yet, here we are.

    When does "pretty soon" arrive?
    Actually for me "pretty soon" arrived this year in January.   Not so much because of Metal but rather due to Apples apathy with respect to the Mac lineup.  That is the hardware is either so outdated or of such low quality that my money for a new laptop went someplace else.    I really hated to do that because there is a lot to like about Mac OS.  The problem is i can program in Python on just about any machine these days and my other uses only occasionally leverage the full potential of the systems. Notably this is delivered on a laptop with modern hardware (better CPU, far better GPU, ports that keep my legacy hardware usable, a great screen &etc), all on a laptop that is $700 less that Apples solutions.  

    So yeah "pretty soon" is already here.   Yeah Windows sucks, there is no debate there but Linux can be a good alternative.   All i can say is that Apple must start updating its hardware because software is only part of the machine.  It has been more than a decade since Apples machines have been such a pathetic value.   I really cant tolerate price increases on such poor machines either.    So yeah there are problems in Mac land.  
    Rubbish. I bought a rMBP a few years ago and it's a kickass machine, making your claims of "pathetic value" quite absurd. Just more foot-stomping from the crowd that wants it noooooowwww.
    Pretty soon he's going to be Avon...no new Apple gear in a decade but somehow thinks that his opinion matters about how terrible Apple is.
    Since when does having new Apple gear in a given timeframe matter when you are giving an opinion?

    In spite of that your maths is very off. 

    Perhaps you forgot but the last Apple purchase I made was an iPad Air 2! Less than two years ago.  iPhone probably this year for the wife.

    The fact that I haven't bought a Mac in a while has everything to do with Apple and nothing to do with me and there are lots of people right here in the forums who share my basic view. And not only here:

    https://www.laptopmag.com/articles/reasons-to-buy-matebook-x-pro

    Non competitive laptops. Overpriced and outdated design, pandering to design philosophies that I (and many others) won't swallow.

    I feel the current MBP design will go down as a failure. 

    Is Apple listening? Who knows!






    edited June 29 elijahgAlex1N
  • Reply 84 of 133
    Rayz2016Rayz2016 Posts: 4,218member

    jmulchino said:
    It is built in obsolescence. Windows will run on 15 year old computers while Mac OS will refuse to run on any Mac built more than six years ago. There is really no technical reason why Mac OS could not run on a 2010 Intel CPU. These are decisions made at the top of the company. Apple does what is best for Apple and not for its customers. The reason developers are not up in arms about Apple dropping OpenGL and OpenCL is that it really happened years ago when Apple stopped updating it. Mac OS is now about five years out of date. When you look at the extremely poor library of AAA games available on the Mac, know that it is Apple's poor hardware features and lack of cross platform software support that is the major reason. Of course people don't buy Macs to play games. Pretty soon people won't buy Macs at all.
    I've been hearing this for 15 years, and yet, here we are.

    When does "pretty soon" arrive?
    Well, it starts right now for me, an owner of a 2011 Mac Mini. What do you suggest I do? 

    I suggest you stop whining and buy a Windows machine that meets your needs. 

    Tell me, is this how you people buy all your stuff?

    ”Can. I help you, sir?”
    ”No, I’m fine.”
    ”Are you sure?”
    ”Yes.”
    ”It’s just that you’ve been staring at that can of beans for two hours now, and we’re closing the store for the day. Are you sure I can’t help you?”
    ”Well, I used to have these beans when I was a kid, with lots of different colours. Rainbow Beans.”
    ”I … don’t think they make them anymore. If they do, we don’t stock them.”
    ”That’s okay, I’ll wait.”
    ”For what?”
    ”For the Rainbow Beans to come back.”
    ”Riiiiigggghhhttt. Well, we are closing up for the day, so …”
    ”No problem. I bought a sleeping bag.”
    williamlondonAlex1N
  • Reply 85 of 133
    Rayz2016Rayz2016 Posts: 4,218member

    lmac said:
    Pretty soon people won't buy Macs at all. Well it’s not like Apple is making new Macs that anyone wants. Shitty laptop keyboards, overpriced Black iMac, outdated locked down pro and hobbled mini. Tired of waiting for a new Mac.
    Oh good, this again.
    Well you removed the downvote button, what did you think was going to happen?
    elijahgwilliamlondonAlex1N
  • Reply 86 of 133
    Mike WuertheleMike Wuerthele Posts: 3,327administrator
    Rayz2016 said:

    lmac said:
    Pretty soon people won't buy Macs at all. Well it’s not like Apple is making new Macs that anyone wants. Shitty laptop keyboards, overpriced Black iMac, outdated locked down pro and hobbled mini. Tired of waiting for a new Mac.
    Oh good, this again.
    Well you removed the downvote button, what did you think was going to happen?
    Reading the previous comments might be helpful to this particular poster. But, why do that? That takes two whole minutes out of a day.
    Alex1N
  • Reply 87 of 133
    nhtnht Posts: 4,228member
    Rayz2016 said:

    lmac said:
    Pretty soon people won't buy Macs at all. Well it’s not like Apple is making new Macs that anyone wants. Shitty laptop keyboards, overpriced Black iMac, outdated locked down pro and hobbled mini. Tired of waiting for a new Mac.
    Oh good, this again.
    Well you removed the downvote button, what did you think was going to happen?
    Reading the previous comments might be helpful to this particular poster. But, why do that? That takes two whole minutes out of a day.
    There seems to be a resigned acceptance of trolls and negativity against Apple.  I have no idea why folks who have been unhappy with Apple for years still come here.

    And I have no idea why anyone with a product replacement cycle of 7+ years thinks Apple gives 2 shakes about them or their opinion.  Especially when the product is the low end Mini.
    williamlondonRayz2016
  • Reply 88 of 133
    tallest skiltallest skil Posts: 43,399member
    Quad849 said:
    DirectX as closed it is has surpassed in performance and utility to OpenGL
    It’s always nice to see new comedians.
    Alex1N
  • Reply 89 of 133
    cgWerkscgWerks Posts: 1,643member
    Rayz2016 said:
    Why is it that these people who threaten to leave never do?
    The grass (on the whole) still isn't greener, and/or the pain/cost of doing so is too high. However, that doesn't indicate there isn't a problem on this side of the fence worthy of complaint, and pointing out the longer-term result.

    Think of any relationship. If you have a good friend who starts abusing your relationship, do you just instantly break off the relationship? Or, do you start pointing out the abuses and letting them know that if they don't correct their ways, eventually the relationship will be damaged such that you'll break it off. So... if that friend just said, 'well you haven't left yet, so there mustn't be an issue...', would that be valid?

    Rayz2016 said:
    Well it could say a number of things:

    It could say that OpenCL is faster than Metal
    It could say that you should state what versions of the OS you’re running on. 
    It could say that benchmarking beta software is pointless. 

    But it most importantly, it could say that you need to test more than one application to get an accurate view on performance. 
    Sure, and I'd like to see more testing.
    But, it makes me wonder what we're talking about with Metal. Apple says a lot about performance, but are they talking about iOS games? Or, are they talking about console-quality or PC quality games? Are they talking about professional level apps? My gut tells me they are talking about the low-hanging fruit (iOS games driving iDevice sales). This also fits nicely with the iOS developers coming to the Mac strategy.

    Rayz2016 said:
    netrox said:
    It would be nice if Apple spends more time focusing on improving the scalability of UX using Metal. I have 5K and if I use native resolution, it is really tiny but with its "default" resolution, the "resolution" are reduced by 2x but here's the thing, when you select other resolutions, the elements of UX don't really scale well and as a result, performance is reduced. I am not sure why Apple hasn't bothered with that as we will have more and more hiDPI monitors of different sizes. With hiDPI monitors, the UX has to scale well to a user's needs and perform natively. Also, if you use "default" resolution, the OSX will display images in applications matching to DPI of monitor BUT if you open them in other resolutions and not native resolution, the image is not corresponding to the actual DPI of monitor!
    Worth reporting. 
    I seem to recall a friend talking about this kind of issue, but more in regard to IT type stuff with remote control sessions and such. I remember he was talking about changes to core technologies either being replaced or not maintained on newer Mac OS versions... not sure if this might be related or not.

    mike54 said:
    You wrote "If you've owned a Mac for 8-9 years, Mojave offers a good reason to upgrade your hardware and join the modern Metal party."
    I would upgrade if Apple makes a reasonably priced headless mac with decent graphics. I'm still using this 2009 Mac Mini because there are no macs available to buy (a 4 year computer still on the shelf is not a contender). I don't get it, Apple is putting effort into this, but there is no hardware to buy. I would come to the conclusion that upper level management in Apple cares less about the macs than the lower level managers and engineers do. 
    Apple's solution is that you buy an iMac. :(

    ElCapitan said:
    The hard fact of dropping OpenGL support is that over time macOS users will lose access to a whole class of applications now available to them. 
    If Apple think this loss can be compensated by making another class of less powerful iOS applications accessible to macOS users, they are delusional.
    But, if the theory of some here is correct, they just don't care. There is more $$$ in that pie-slice that doesn't contain those class of applications. (And, of course we all know that money is everything, and that short-term thinking always beats out long-term thinking. /s ... well, at least in the short-term.)

    nht said:
    Apple isn't anti-developer.  That's an especially stupid assertion right after WWDC.
    I wasn't at WWDC, but from the general news coverage, what about it suggests Apple is especially pro-developer (more so than previously, or in comparisons to any other tech company, etc.)? Just because they held a conference with Developer in the title? Of course they are 'pro-developer' in sense of wanting people to write software for their platform. I think maybe the context of that sentiment is they could/should be doing more?

    auxio said:
    And yet, somehow a couple of months ago before anything was announced, you were able to do everything you needed to do.  So an announcement about an OS update which hasn't even been released yet somehow changed that?  Give me a break.
    Umm, in the context of this article, they might be worrying about what will happen to their favorite software (in addition to the lack of hardware). I'm worried about a couple software packages I use at this point. (As I know it caught the devs as a bit of a surprise, and they are not trying to decide how to react/move-forward.)

    lmac said:
    Pretty soon people won't buy Macs at all. Well it’s not like Apple is making new Macs that anyone wants. Shitty laptop keyboards, overpriced Black iMac, outdated locked down pro and hobbled mini. Tired of waiting for a new Mac.
    Some days, I wonder if that's not the plan. Wean people off dependence on the Mac until all your left with is a customer base that is fine with just iOS.
    nht said:
    I'd do the "Amazing, every word..." gif again but that would just become annoying.
    Is any of this stuff on the level of requirement of something like advanced 3D CAD/rendering/scientific analysis? Most of this seemed ML related.
    elijahgAlex1N
  • Reply 90 of 133
    cgWerkscgWerks Posts: 1,643member
    Rayz2016 said:
    No one is making you wait for anything. Move to Windows.
    I think the idea is we're hoping Apple hasn't abandoned professionals and creatives, so we don't have to leave.

    avon b7 said:
    The fact that I haven't bought a Mac in a while has everything to do with Apple and nothing to do with me and there are lots of people right here in the forums who share my basic view.
    Fanboys don't like anyone pointing out Apple failures. They'd rather we leave so their echo-chamber remain pure.

    Rayz2016 said:
    I suggest you stop whining and buy a Windows machine that meets your needs. 
    Wow, must be nice for Apple to have so many customers they'd like a segment of them to go away for bothering them. I remember the days when Apple was trying to gain new customers. Silly me.

    And, I'm not waiting for Rainbow Beans. It's more like I like the a few varieties of baked beans they used to make, but they've replaced them with tofu niblets. I'm hoping they they realize people still like baked beans before having to switch to ramen noodles.

    nht said:
    There seems to be a resigned acceptance of trolls and negativity against Apple.  I have no idea why folks who have been unhappy with Apple for years still come here.

    And I have no idea why anyone with a product replacement cycle of 7+ years thinks Apple gives 2 shakes about them or their opinion.  Especially when the product is the low end Mini.
    For sure... these places should be for fanboys only!!! No dissenting opinions should be allowed. LOL
    FYI... it generally takes a while for an established relationship to be damaged to the point of breaking it, and for a hard-earned brand-image to be burned through.
    elijahgAlex1Nlorin schultz
  • Reply 91 of 133
    mcdavemcdave Posts: 967member
    It is built in obsolescence. Windows will run on 15 year old computers while Mac OS will refuse to run on any Mac built more than six years ago. There is really no technical reason why Mac OS could not run on a 2010 Intel CPU. These are decisions made at the top of the company. Apple does what is best for Apple and not for its customers. The reason developers are not up in arms about Apple dropping OpenGL and OpenCL is that it really happened years ago when Apple stopped updating it. Mac OS is now about five years out of date. When you look at the extremely poor library of AAA games available on the Mac, know that it is Apple's poor hardware features and lack of cross platform software support that is the major reason. Of course people don't buy Macs to play games. Pretty soon people won't buy Macs at all.
    You’re right, there’s no technical reason, there’s a very good UX reason.
    Wrong, OpenGL is used in no significant proportion of AAA games, these use DirectX.  The lack of DirectX prohibits game support on the Mac. By committing to and pushing Metal Apple want to change this.
    macplusplus
  • Reply 92 of 133
    mcdavemcdave Posts: 967member
    elijahg said:

    This created a knee-jerk reaction of clickbait warning that "developers" were revolting and waving pitchforks about the announcement. However, the main uses of OpenGL and OpenCL (the GPU-computation framework that Apple originally developed and shared with the OpenGL community) are in porting low level code between Linux, Windows and Macs.

    Most modern games with 3D graphics are not hard coded using low-level OpenGL. 
    So what happens to the applications and games where OpenGL is used for "porting low level code between Linux, Windows and Macs"? In any case OpenGL isn't used to "port low level code", it is the low level code. For tools such as AutoCad, Sketchup, Kicad, Eagle, Blender, GIMP etc that are natively Windows or Linux, Mac support is often a token gesture; simply a tickbox when the graphics core is OpenGL. If developers have a hard time porting to Mac because they have to use Metal, they just won't bother. It's not worth them spending disproportionate time on a minority of computer users to support an obscure graphics API, and game engines aren't any good for writing actual tools to get things done.

    As I've said in another thread on this: unlike mobile, Apple has pretty much no clout in the desktop/laptop market. Developers want to support iOS because it's profitable, so they'll follow Apple's every whim. On Mac however, that won't happen, developers just won't bother, to the detriment yet again of Mac users.
    You’re transposing. It’s easy to say MacOS’ 100m user base represents a small proportion of the total PC user base but given the vast majority of that base can’t competently run the applications you mention you surely realise Apple’s share of it is far larger then you intimate.  All this move will do is polarise support and ensure those titles which do commit to macOS are more performant.
  • Reply 93 of 133
    nhtnht Posts: 4,228member
    cgWerks said:
    Rayz2016 said:
    No one is making you wait for anything. Move to Windows.
    I think the idea is we're hoping Apple hasn't abandoned professionals and creatives, so we don't have to leave.

    avon b7 said:
    The fact that I haven't bought a Mac in a while has everything to do with Apple and nothing to do with me and there are lots of people right here in the forums who share my basic view.
    Fanboys don't like anyone pointing out Apple failures. They'd rather we leave so their echo-chamber remain pure.

    Rayz2016 said:
    I suggest you stop whining and buy a Windows machine that meets your needs. 
    Wow, must be nice for Apple to have so many customers they'd like a segment of them to go away for bothering them. I remember the days when Apple was trying to gain new customers. Silly me.

    And, I'm not waiting for Rainbow Beans. It's more like I like the a few varieties of baked beans they used to make, but they've replaced them with tofu niblets. I'm hoping they they realize people still like baked beans before having to switch to ramen noodles.

    nht said:
    There seems to be a resigned acceptance of trolls and negativity against Apple.  I have no idea why folks who have been unhappy with Apple for years still come here.

    And I have no idea why anyone with a product replacement cycle of 7+ years thinks Apple gives 2 shakes about them or their opinion.  Especially when the product is the low end Mini.
    For sure... these places should be for fanboys only!!! No dissenting opinions should be allowed. LOL
    FYI... it generally takes a while for an established relationship to be damaged to the point of breaking it, and for a hard-earned brand-image to be burned through.
    There is dissenting opinion and there's trolling.  

    Apple hasn't "abandoned professionals and creatives".  You have a sub-optimal devops strategy but the majority of developers are just fine as are creatives.  Hence the rising sales of Macs from 13.6M in 2010 to 19.2M in 2017.  So yes, folks with a 7+ year replacement cycle don't do a whole lot for Apple.  

    Apple hasn't 
    made an xMac (inexpensive headless desktop with expansion) since the PPC days and isn't likely to ever again.  The forthcoming Mac Pro will be expensive.  Any new mini will be gimped.  If that's what you want then Dell, HP, Lenovo, etc await.  They make decent gear and both Windows 10 and Linux are fine operating systems.

    Go pound sand with your "fanboy" nonsense.  You, Avon and Wizard are constant in your whining about how terrible Apple is.  At least Gatorguy is getting paid by Google. 
    tallest skilroundaboutnowwilliamlondonAlex1Nmacplusplus
  • Reply 94 of 133
    tallest skiltallest skil Posts: 43,399member
    nht said:
    You, Avon and Wizard are constant in your whining about how terrible Apple is.  At least Gatorguy is getting paid by Google. 
    I actually chuckled. “At least someone is being paid to shill.” What a setup.
    elijahgAlex1N
  • Reply 95 of 133
    nhtnht Posts: 4,228member
    cgWerks said:
    Rayz2016 said:
    Well it could say a number of things:

    It could say that OpenCL is faster than Metal
    It could say that you should state what versions of the OS you’re running on. 
    It could say that benchmarking beta software is pointless. 

    But it most importantly, it could say that you need to test more than one application to get an accurate view on performance. 
    Sure, and I'd like to see more testing.
    But, it makes me wonder what we're talking about with Metal. Apple says a lot about performance, but are they talking about iOS games? Or, are they talking about console-quality or PC quality games? Are they talking about professional level apps? My gut tells me they are talking about the low-hanging fruit (iOS games driving iDevice sales). This also fits nicely with the iOS developers coming to the Mac strategy.

    ElCapitan said:
    The hard fact of dropping OpenGL support is that over time macOS users will lose access to a whole class of applications now available to them. 
    If Apple think this loss can be compensated by making another class of less powerful iOS applications accessible to macOS users, they are delusional.
    But, if the theory of some here is correct, they just don't care. There is more $$$ in that pie-slice that doesn't contain those class of applications. (And, of course we all know that money is everything, and that short-term thinking always beats out long-term thinking. /s ... well, at least in the short-term.)

    nht said:
    Apple isn't anti-developer.  That's an especially stupid assertion right after WWDC.
    I wasn't at WWDC, but from the general news coverage, what about it suggests Apple is especially pro-developer (more so than previously, or in comparisons to any other tech company, etc.)? Just because they held a conference with Developer in the title? Of course they are 'pro-developer' in sense of wanting people to write software for their platform. I think maybe the context of that sentiment is they could/should be doing more?

    auxio said:
    And yet, somehow a couple of months ago before anything was announced, you were able to do everything you needed to do.  So an announcement about an OS update which hasn't even been released yet somehow changed that?  Give me a break.
    Umm, in the context of this article, they might be worrying about what will happen to their favorite software (in addition to the lack of hardware). I'm worried about a couple software packages I use at this point. (As I know it caught the devs as a bit of a surprise, and they are not trying to decide how to react/move-forward.)

    lmac said:
    Pretty soon people won't buy Macs at all. Well it’s not like Apple is making new Macs that anyone wants. Shitty laptop keyboards, overpriced Black iMac, outdated locked down pro and hobbled mini. Tired of waiting for a new Mac.
    Some days, I wonder if that's not the plan. Wean people off dependence on the Mac until all your left with is a customer base that is fine with just iOS.
    nht said:
    I'd do the "Amazing, every word..." gif again but that would just become annoying.
    Is any of this stuff on the level of requirement of something like advanced 3D CAD/rendering/scientific analysis? Most of this seemed ML related.
    Metal is for both GPU rending (aka games) and GPU Machine Learning and computational workloads...natural language processing, image recognition, etc.  Which you would know if you paid any attention.   

    There are articles provided are specific about use of metal in scientific computing to refute the stupid assertion that nobody will use Metal Performance Shaders for compute workloads.  There is a small but growing pool of science applications and libraries written in swift that leverage Accelerate (CPU) and Metal (GPU).  Lattner is at Google and working on Swift and TensorFlow and on MacOS and iOS those will be underpinned by Metal or Accelerate.



    If you had a clue you would also understand that deprecated doesn't mean removed.  You would also know that even if removed doesn't mean that the actual owner of the technology won't provide a installer...for example Oracle for Java and Khronos will for OpenGL/OpenCL/Vulkan if it does get removed from MacOS.

    Nothing is going to happen to your favorite software for at least a few years and probably not for a decade.  Java was deprecated in 2016 and the java plugin removed from Safari in 2012.  And yet I have java apps running on my box using the latest oracle version as long as Oracle continues to update.

    williamlondonAlex1Nmacplusplus
  • Reply 96 of 133
    avon b7avon b7 Posts: 2,718member
    nht said:
    cgWerks said:
    Rayz2016 said:
    No one is making you wait for anything. Move to Windows.
    I think the idea is we're hoping Apple hasn't abandoned professionals and creatives, so we don't have to leave.

    avon b7 said:
    The fact that I haven't bought a Mac in a while has everything to do with Apple and nothing to do with me and there are lots of people right here in the forums who share my basic view.
    Fanboys don't like anyone pointing out Apple failures. They'd rather we leave so their echo-chamber remain pure.

    Rayz2016 said:
    I suggest you stop whining and buy a Windows machine that meets your needs. 
    Wow, must be nice for Apple to have so many customers they'd like a segment of them to go away for bothering them. I remember the days when Apple was trying to gain new customers. Silly me.

    And, I'm not waiting for Rainbow Beans. It's more like I like the a few varieties of baked beans they used to make, but they've replaced them with tofu niblets. I'm hoping they they realize people still like baked beans before having to switch to ramen noodles.

    nht said:
    There seems to be a resigned acceptance of trolls and negativity against Apple.  I have no idea why folks who have been unhappy with Apple for years still come here.

    And I have no idea why anyone with a product replacement cycle of 7+ years thinks Apple gives 2 shakes about them or their opinion.  Especially when the product is the low end Mini.
    For sure... these places should be for fanboys only!!! No dissenting opinions should be allowed. LOL
    FYI... it generally takes a while for an established relationship to be damaged to the point of breaking it, and for a hard-earned brand-image to be burned through.
    There is dissenting opinion and there's trolling.  

    Apple hasn't "abandoned professionals and creatives".  You have a sub-optimal devops strategy but the majority of developers are just fine as are creatives.  Hence the rising sales of Macs from 13.6M in 2010 to 19.2M in 2017.  So yes, folks with a 7+ year replacement cycle don't do a whole lot for Apple.  

    Apple hasn't made an xMac (inexpensive headless desktop with expansion) since the PPC days and isn't likely to ever again.  The forthcoming Mac Pro will be expensive.  Any new mini will be gimped.  If that's what you want then Dell, HP, Lenovo, etc await.  They make decent gear and both Windows 10 and Linux are fine operating systems.

    Go pound sand with your "fanboy" nonsense.  You, Avon and Wizard are constant in your whining about how terrible Apple is.  At least Gatorguy is getting paid by Google. 
    By your own definition and use, your incessant labelling of people (troll, idiot, whiner or whatever you choose) and implying that some people are ruining your party in some way by being 'negative', just makes you a whiner. 

    Just try to accept other people's opinions, observations and participation even if you don't like it. It really isn't that difficult. And you have the ignore button too.

    I have praised every move by Apple that is good IMO. I have criticised all that I think is bad. If you think the balance is overly negative and don't like it, that's how it goes. It swings both ways. 

    You live in sunny California where Apple has more influence. I live in sunny Spain where Apple is in an entirely different position. 

    Try getting Siri to navigate around here and you very well might end up in the sea. Apple maps is woefully lacking. Science, Education and Health are PC domains. I have still only seen three iPhone X in the wild and Samsung and Huawei rule the smartphone domain. Take a stroll around Madrid and see the world's largest scaffold banner facade advertisement (photo taken with a P20 Pro too):

    https://www.vsacomunicacion.com/blog/index.php/lona-huawei-en-la-plaza-espana-de-madrid/

    Difficult to imagine in an American city, right?

    As for Macs I have seen exaxtly ONE latest generation MBP in the wild.

    I commute every day and travel around the city on public transport. I see what is happening around me. I'm not holed up in an office. I speak to some very influential people who are also involved in high tech fields.

    That is my reality. Try to accept it.

    If I haven't bought a Mac in years it has literally nothing to do with my ability to give an opinion.

    The situation right now is lamentable. Simply lamentable. However, if competitors step up to the plate with FAR better hardware at FAR lower prices I will comment on it because we should all be asking WTF Apple is playing at. Where the hell are they going? Years without a Mini update, years without a Mac Pro update. A really questionable MacBook/MacBook Pro direction that looks more painful by the minute. Who knows, Schiller might round up some his trusted Mac journalists and have a meeting (a la Mac Pro) to promise us a completely new MBP design in 2020! You know the line "we backed ourselves into a corner with all that glue, the new (non-spillproof) keyboard and going all out on thin!"

    And there you are, telling us that certain things will never happen and that we should throw in the towel?

    You mean the stuff like Apple calling in the press, not only to say they goofed, but to reveal that a new design would be forthcoming. 

    To be clear, you simply don't know what or won't happen. Nobody does, but Tim Cook won't be there forever and it very much looks like the post iPhone age (as a revenue grower) is upon us and while I support ideas like movie/series content creation, cars etc, they tend to guzzle cash like there is no tomorrow. Whoever steps in after him might have a completely different idea about what the Mac represents so please don't tell me what won't happen because you simply do not know. Neither do I but I'm not the one claiming to know and as I have no opinion on OpenGL I haven't said anything one way or another about it but in a wider sense it reminds me of many previous moves by Apple.
    edited June 29 elijahgAlex1N
  • Reply 97 of 133
    mcdavemcdave Posts: 967member
    snailer said:
    Looks like I'm gonna have to upgrade my Mac Pro 5,1 graphics card. I'm running a Radeon HD 7950 3GB. Does anybody know what cards support Metal on my machine?
    Go nuts, RX Vega Frontier.
    Alex1N
  • Reply 98 of 133
    mcdavemcdave Posts: 967member
    wizard69 said:
    It is built in obsolescence. Windows will run on 15 year old computers while Mac OS will refuse to run on any Mac built more than six years ago. There is really no technical reason why Mac OS could not run on a 2010 Intel CPU. These are decisions made at the top of the company. Apple does what is best for Apple and not for its customers. The reason developers are not up in arms about Apple dropping OpenGL and OpenCL is that it really happened years ago when Apple stopped updating it. Mac OS is now about five years out of date. When you look at the extremely poor library of AAA games available on the Mac, know that it is Apple's poor hardware features and lack of cross platform software support that is the major reason. Of course people don't buy Macs to play games. Pretty soon people won't buy Macs at all.
    I've been hearing this for 15 years, and yet, here we are.

    When does "pretty soon" arrive?
    All i can say is that Apple must start updating its hardware because software is only part of the machine.  It has been more than a decade since Apples machines have been such a pathetic value.   I really cant tolerate price increases on such poor machines either.    So yeah there are problems in Mac land.  
    Why are you attributing so much significance to incremental hardware gains?
    Alex1N
  • Reply 99 of 133
    mcdave said:
    wizard69 said:
    It is built in obsolescence. Windows will run on 15 year old computers while Mac OS will refuse to run on any Mac built more than six years ago. There is really no technical reason why Mac OS could not run on a 2010 Intel CPU. These are decisions made at the top of the company. Apple does what is best for Apple and not for its customers. The reason developers are not up in arms about Apple dropping OpenGL and OpenCL is that it really happened years ago when Apple stopped updating it. Mac OS is now about five years out of date. When you look at the extremely poor library of AAA games available on the Mac, know that it is Apple's poor hardware features and lack of cross platform software support that is the major reason. Of course people don't buy Macs to play games. Pretty soon people won't buy Macs at all.
    I've been hearing this for 15 years, and yet, here we are.

    When does "pretty soon" arrive?
    All i can say is that Apple must start updating its hardware because software is only part of the machine.  It has been more than a decade since Apples machines have been such a pathetic value.   I really cant tolerate price increases on such poor machines either.    So yeah there are problems in Mac land.  
    Why are you attributing so much significance to incremental hardware gains?
    Gotta have something to complain about.
    Alex1N
  • Reply 100 of 133
    cgWerkscgWerks Posts: 1,643member
    mcdave said:
    You’re transposing. It’s easy to say MacOS’ 100m user base represents a small proportion of the total PC user base but given the vast majority of that base can’t competently run the applications you mention you surely realise Apple’s share of it is far larger then you intimate.  All this move will do is polarise support and ensure those titles which do commit to macOS are more performant.
    There is some truth to this, I would guess... in that the Mac's portion of the CAD/3D etc. markets don't match the Mac/PC ratio overall... though it's hard to say what it actually is. I suppose it would depend on the particular app and industry.

    The problem, though, is that *most* of these apps are now cross-platform, and it will be a big decision, going forward, if they want to maintain more divergent code libraries just to support the Mac. Or, I suppose, Mac users could (or the installers) could install OpenGL/CL? If not - especially in the light of Mac users already on the verge of platform switching - are they really going to re-write a Metal Mac version? And, if they did, would the performance be higher?

    nht said:
    Apple hasn't "abandoned professionals and creatives".  You have a sub-optimal devops strategy but the majority of developers are just fine as are creatives.  Hence the rising sales of Macs from 13.6M in 2010 to 19.2M in 2017.
    Hmm... how much of that growth came from creatives, do you think?

    nht said:
    Apple hasn't made an xMac (inexpensive headless desktop with expansion) since the PPC days and isn't likely to ever again.  The forthcoming Mac Pro will be expensive.  Any new mini will be gimped.  If that's what you want then Dell, HP, Lenovo, etc await.  They make decent gear and both Windows 10 and Linux are fine operating systems. 
    Really? What about the 2012 Mac Mini? But, I'm not asking for an inexpensive headless desktop with expansion... I'd settle for a semi-inexpensive headless desktop, period. And, I'm not looking to move to Windows. If I were, yea, easy choice... there's far better hardware over there. (Which is sad, as Apple used to have the best hardware.)

    nht said:
    Metal is for both GPU rending (aka games) and GPU Machine Learning and computational workloads...natural language processing, image recognition, etc.  Which you would know if you paid any attention.
    Yes, I saw the talk about ML, but I could care less about that stuff. Does that mean it also has the power to do CAD/3D? While speed gains are probably appreciated with ML, it doesn't seem to be the type of thing that would require robustness (or something like bitcoin, etc.). But, maybe I'm wrong about that as it isn't an area I have much interest in.

    nht said:
    If you had a clue you would also understand that deprecated doesn't mean removed.  You would also know that even if removed doesn't mean that the actual owner of the technology won't provide a installer...for example Oracle for Java and Khronos will for OpenGL/OpenCL/Vulkan if it does get removed from MacOS.
    Yes, I know that and 'have a clue' as you say. That doesn't explain why developers are concerned, which I'm just guessing is because you typically want underlying technologies present so you don't have to add additional installers... but maybe there are other reasons too. Or, maybe Metal sucks in comparison, so they don't like the main technology on a platform going that direction?

    avon b7 said:
    I have praised every move by Apple that is good IMO. I have criticised all that I think is bad. If you think the balance is overly negative and don't like it, that's how it goes. It swings both ways. 
    That's what I find so funny about this. A decade or two ago, I was the one accused of being a fanboy because I mostly loved Apple products (though I also complained about the stuff they were doing wrong, like WiFi reliability on laptops!). I've gone to the mat with corporate IT professionals and departments over some of their silly, biased negative ideas about Macs. I've recommended thousands of Macs to individuals and companies. Heck, I was telling people to buy AAPL in the mid-90s when pretty much everyone had given up on them.

    Now, I'm troll because I dare think that Apple might not be what they once were.... 'cause, you know, the stock is so high they just can't be doing anything wrong, right? (As if Wall Street is usually an indicator of such things, lol.)

    I try to give Apple credit where it is due. I think the iMac Pro is a good machine for particular markets. Even the 2013 Mac Pro wasn't bad - I'm thinking about buying one - it just wasn't a good design for the target market. I think Apple's approach to Siri automation is actually kind of brilliant. Hopefully it is because Apple recognizes that AI-assist stuff isn't what it is cooked up to be, so they are going with something more reliable.

    I'm hoping the upcoming iOS/macOS are really fix/stability releases, and am optimistic given the early reporting. I'm also hopeful that at some point here in the not too distant future, they might finally have a somewhat up-to-date product line for Macs, I'm just concerned about where they go with any re-designs.

    So, we'll see... I'm more optimistic today than I was a year ago, but they still have a lot of ground to cover to ensure me they are really serious about their talk.

    avon b7 said:
    And there you are, telling us that certain things will never happen and that we should throw in the towel?
    No doubt. That's why I used the fanboy term. What other kind of person would say something like that? I don't think the things we're wanting are so out there, unless you're totally sold on this 'future is phones' baloney.

    avon b7 said:
    ... and while I support ideas like movie/series content creation, cars etc, they tend to guzzle cash like there is no tomorrow.
    Yeah. I have no issue with them spending some to investigate these things, or moving into other areas.... IF... the core is solid. But, I'm getting sick of excuses for the Mac being behind when I see so much effort being put elsewhere.
    Alex1N
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