Development costs 'prohibitively high' for 7nm chips for everybody but Apple and TSMC

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Comments

  • Reply 61 of 88
    avon b7avon b7 Posts: 2,602member
    melgross said:

    avon b7 said:
    tmay said:
    avon b7 said:
    tmay said:
    avon b7 said:
    tmay said:
    avon b7 said:
    tmay said:
    avon b7 said:
    avon b7 said:
    HiSilicon (Huawei) has had 7nm chips in mass production (TSMC) since around June according to many rumours. It has also been said that they have a contractual amount of orders (millions) to be fulfilled for launch phones (suspected to be three models in the short term). 

    Apple needs volume on launch because it releases one refresh every year.

    Huawei will release four flagship phones over the coming 12 months and as a result doesn't have anywhere near the pent up demand for September/October release. It will be spread out over the year and before year's end the Kirin 980 will also be in mid tier devices as well as non-handset devices.

    Quite why this report exists is a mystery as Huawei presented the Kirin 980 just last week to a world audience at IFA Berlin, live blogged and all:

    https://www.anandtech.com/show/13302/ifa-2018-huawei-kirin-980-keynote-live-blog

    They said it took three years to develop and gave the date of presentation for the first phone to use it: 16th October.

    Honor said the Magic 2 would also use it very soon. Rumours point to a December release. They wouldn't have announced that part if supply constraints were expected.

    This is the second time DigiTimes has made this type of claim (I'm basing this on AI articles). The first time was when they claimed only Apple and Samsung had the financial resources to bring 7nm to market.

    https://appleinsider.com/articles/17/12/13/apple-samsung-could-be-only-smartphone-makers-with-7nm-chips-in-2018

    blah blah Kirin blah blah Huawei blah blah 7nm blah blah

    Nobody cares about your constant Huawei shilling.

    Apple will be the THE FIRST company on the planet with 7nm chips. This is a fact. Huawei "announcing" they have the Kirin 980 means absolutely nothing. Apple will have working iPhones with the A12 7nm chip on September 12th. And they'll have 10's of millions shipping out a week later. Which means Apple would have had already received millions of A12 processors months ago. Unless you think you can fab a processor (in the millions) in only a couple days, and then get them into iPhones (by the millions) in a couple more days.

    All Huawei is trying to do is trick gullible/stupid people into thinking they were first, because Huawei knows Apple won't say anything about their A12 processor. So they can yap all they want knowing full well Apple will stay silent. Intelligent people know who's first (using INDUSTRY ACCEPTED STANDARDS). And that is Apple.

    Announcing is not shipping. The Kirin 980 is vaporware at this point. Just like last year when Huawei lied and claimed the Kirin 970 was the first processor with a neural processor (the A11 from Apple was first, and the 970 didn't ship until months later) by "announcing" it just before the iPhone came out. Do people actually fall for this crap?



    Now speaking about the 980, how come it takes Huawei years and over 1,000 engineers to build a processor that uses off-the-shelf CPU and GPU cores? And still uses the vastly inferior UFS for storage (while Apple will be on their 4th generation NVMe)? What exactly have they developed in terms of IP related to processors?

    I see you linked Anandtech, but left out the performance claims. They're stating a Geekbench single core score of 3,300 for an A76 core (as used in the 980). The A11 scores 4,200. So a year old A11 core on the older 10nm process is STILL significantly faster than an A76 core on 7nm. Doesn't seem that impressive to me. At all.
    Cores and SoCs. Two different things. SoCs and phones. Two different things.

    Vapourware? The Kirin 980 was sitting there and running at IFA 2018. It is just waiting for the phone to launch (October 16th).
    Huawei only has a small volume of Kirin 980 samples until TMSC has met its contractual obligations to Apple. Neither you nor I know if or when Kirin 980 production has started or will start.
    How on earth can you know that?
    Uhm, because Apple spends the most money, by far, and has one of the longest running exclusive relationships at TMSC, and the fact that Apple has volume production of the iPhone in process, with deliveries beginning in just a couple of weeks.

    If this wasn't the case, why would Huawei have waited to release the new phones in mid October? They could have moved heaven and earth to have these phones ready before Apple, but only if they had processors in volume before Apple does. It wouldn't even need to be a big volume, just a few millions shipped to a single market.

    I gave you a scenario where Apple ships 85 m iPhones this quarter, which will work out to about 60 million of the three new models. That will drive renege over $100B for the quarter.

    EDIT;

    I would also note that TMSC makes, unless I am in error, all of the other SoC's that Apple uses for all of the older model iPhones, for the Watch, AppleTV, AirPod's, et al, although not all of them are or need to be, at the newest node.
    So, that was the long winded version of 'you don't know at all'. Great!

    Think about it for a moment. Huawei could release it today if it wanted. No need to move heaven and earth. We're talking about a few weeks difference and there were rumours of mass Kirin 980 production as far back as April this year It could  limit the release to just one region and phase the roll out. Just like many manufacturers (including Huawei already do).

    Now think a little harder. Could it be that Huawei might just have its own plans for release and not give a damn about Apple?

    You know, like releasing the Mate 20 in exactly the same way as it released the Mate 10?
    I have given you a logical scenario, based on Apple being TMSC's preeminent and exclusive customer, and its volumes of 7nm production, as well as total production. Your retort is that Huawei "has its own plans", rather than a later access to 7nm production.

    Which scenario is most likely?

    Certainly not yours.
    Ah, now it boils down to logical scenarios.

    Here's another one for you to chew on.

    Don't you think that contractual obligations also exist between TMSC and ALL its customers????

    Or do you think there are clauses in their contracts that hold disclaimers like:

    "You will get your chips as long as we have spare capacity after fulfilling Apple's orders"

    What is logical in that? You have no reason to doubt Huawei has everything it ordered for launch, not even the infamous virus issue.

    Why? Because they haven't said ANYTHING to that effect and have announced that at least two phones (one from Honor and one from Huawei) will be shipping soon.
    I didn't say that Huawei didn't have everything, or even enough, for launch on October 16, just that it was likely that the production for Huawei was scheduled after the contractual obligations for Apple were completed, and even I don't know when that occurred. You would have to acknowledge that Apple would have been given priority for 7nm production by TMSC at this time of year, clearly because Apple has stature to be the lead company for production at a new node.
    I am not privvy to that information but good business sense tells me that few companies would voluntarily depend on Apple as an exclusive customer. That means that TMSC could actually court alternatives to keep its options open and favour a stable mixed relationship with its clients to be covered in a worst case scenario.
    Apple is estimated to be between 20-25% of TSMC’s  business. But, and this is crucial, right now, TSMC has one plant that makes 7nm chips. Their biggest customer, and first customer for that is Apple. Next in line is Qualcomm. Then, maybe, third is Huawei. Just looking at the size of the orders each company has in.

    now, it’s also known that Apple paid TSMC several billion $ to help get that plant built, as they often do with major, and sometimes minor suppliers (they paid Samsung to buy machinery several years ago). For that, they get extra discounts, and are served first.

    This article doesn’t cover rhe 7nm plant, but is one of many that gives an idea as to how important Apple is to them.

    https://wccftech.com/tsmc-20-billion-facility-keep-apple-customer/

    ‘’I’ve been getting some weird typos here lately. It changes after I post. Then I have to go back, sometimes several times.
    Where are you getting the order information from?

    This is what TSMC claimed when they began mass production on 7nm earlier this year:

    https://www.anandtech.com/show/12677/tsmc-kicks-off-volume-production-of-7nm-chips
  • Reply 62 of 88
    You realize Apple isn't the only one using 7nm and TSMC, right? The desktop you'll see AMD's entire product line starting with EPYC 2 and Vega 20 with 7nm on their 16/32GB HBM2 Instinct GPGPUs, within the next month or so.
    edited September 4
  • Reply 63 of 88
    melgrossmelgross Posts: 30,850member
    avon b7 said:
    tmay said:
    avon b7 said:
    tmay said:
    avon b7 said:
    tmay said:
    avon b7 said:
    tmay said:
    avon b7 said:
    tmay said:
    avon b7 said:
    avon b7 said:
    HiSilicon (Huawei) has had 7nm chips in mass production (TSMC) since around June according to many rumours. It has also been said that they have a contractual amount of orders (millions) to be fulfilled for launch phones (suspected to be three models in the short term). 

    Apple needs volume on launch because it releases one refresh every year.

    Huawei will release four flagship phones over the coming 12 months and as a result doesn't have anywhere near the pent up demand for September/October release. It will be spread out over the year and before year's end the Kirin 980 will also be in mid tier devices as well as non-handset devices.

    Quite why this report exists is a mystery as Huawei presented the Kirin 980 just last week to a world audience at IFA Berlin, live blogged and all:

    https://www.anandtech.com/show/13302/ifa-2018-huawei-kirin-980-keynote-live-blog

    They said it took three years to develop and gave the date of presentation for the first phone to use it: 16th October.

    Honor said the Magic 2 would also use it very soon. Rumours point to a December release. They wouldn't have announced that part if supply constraints were expected.

    This is the second time DigiTimes has made this type of claim (I'm basing this on AI articles). The first time was when they claimed only Apple and Samsung had the financial resources to bring 7nm to market.

    https://appleinsider.com/articles/17/12/13/apple-samsung-could-be-only-smartphone-makers-with-7nm-chips-in-2018

    blah blah Kirin blah blah Huawei blah blah 7nm blah blah

    Nobody cares about your constant Huawei shilling.

    Apple will be the THE FIRST company on the planet with 7nm chips. This is a fact. Huawei "announcing" they have the Kirin 980 means absolutely nothing. Apple will have working iPhones with the A12 7nm chip on September 12th. And they'll have 10's of millions shipping out a week later. Which means Apple would have had already received millions of A12 processors months ago. Unless you think you can fab a processor (in the millions) in only a couple days, and then get them into iPhones (by the millions) in a couple more days.

    All Huawei is trying to do is trick gullible/stupid people into thinking they were first, because Huawei knows Apple won't say anything about their A12 processor. So they can yap all they want knowing full well Apple will stay silent. Intelligent people know who's first (using INDUSTRY ACCEPTED STANDARDS). And that is Apple.

    Announcing is not shipping. The Kirin 980 is vaporware at this point. Just like last year when Huawei lied and claimed the Kirin 970 was the first processor with a neural processor (the A11 from Apple was first, and the 970 didn't ship until months later) by "announcing" it just before the iPhone came out. Do people actually fall for this crap?



    Now speaking about the 980, how come it takes Huawei years and over 1,000 engineers to build a processor that uses off-the-shelf CPU and GPU cores? And still uses the vastly inferior UFS for storage (while Apple will be on their 4th generation NVMe)? What exactly have they developed in terms of IP related to processors?

    I see you linked Anandtech, but left out the performance claims. They're stating a Geekbench single core score of 3,300 for an A76 core (as used in the 980). The A11 scores 4,200. So a year old A11 core on the older 10nm process is STILL significantly faster than an A76 core on 7nm. Doesn't seem that impressive to me. At all.
    Cores and SoCs. Two different things. SoCs and phones. Two different things.

    Vapourware? The Kirin 980 was sitting there and running at IFA 2018. It is just waiting for the phone to launch (October 16th).
    Huawei only has a small volume of Kirin 980 samples until TMSC has met its contractual obligations to Apple. Neither you nor I know if or when Kirin 980 production has started or will start.
    How on earth can you know that?
    Uhm, because Apple spends the most money, by far, and has one of the longest running exclusive relationships at TMSC, and the fact that Apple has volume production of the iPhone in process, with deliveries beginning in just a couple of weeks.

    If this wasn't the case, why would Huawei have waited to release the new phones in mid October? They could have moved heaven and earth to have these phones ready before Apple, but only if they had processors in volume before Apple does. It wouldn't even need to be a big volume, just a few millions shipped to a single market.

    I gave you a scenario where Apple ships 85 m iPhones this quarter, which will work out to about 60 million of the three new models. That will drive renege over $100B for the quarter.

    EDIT;

    I would also note that TMSC makes, unless I am in error, all of the other SoC's that Apple uses for all of the older model iPhones, for the Watch, AppleTV, AirPod's, et al, although not all of them are or need to be, at the newest node.
    So, that was the long winded version of 'you don't know at all'. Great!

    Think about it for a moment. Huawei could release it today if it wanted. No need to move heaven and earth. We're talking about a few weeks difference and there were rumours of mass Kirin 980 production as far back as April this year It could  limit the release to just one region and phase the roll out. Just like many manufacturers (including Huawei already do).

    Now think a little harder. Could it be that Huawei might just have its own plans for release and not give a damn about Apple?

    You know, like releasing the Mate 20 in exactly the same way as it released the Mate 10?
    I have given you a logical scenario, based on Apple being TMSC's preeminent and exclusive customer, and its volumes of 7nm production, as well as total production. Your retort is that Huawei "has its own plans", rather than a later access to 7nm production.

    Which scenario is most likely?

    Certainly not yours.
    Ah, now it boils down to logical scenarios.

    Here's another one for you to chew on.

    Don't you think that contractual obligations also exist between TMSC and ALL its customers????

    Or do you think there are clauses in their contracts that hold disclaimers like:

    "You will get your chips as long as we have spare capacity after fulfilling Apple's orders"

    What is logical in that? You have no reason to doubt Huawei has everything it ordered for launch, not even the infamous virus issue.

    Why? Because they haven't said ANYTHING to that effect and have announced that at least two phones (one from Honor and one from Huawei) will be shipping soon.
    I didn't say that Huawei didn't have everything, or even enough, for launch on October 16, just that it was likely that the production for Huawei was scheduled after the contractual obligations for Apple were completed, and even I don't know when that occurred. You would have to acknowledge that Apple would have been given priority for 7nm production by TMSC at this time of year, clearly because Apple has stature to be the lead company for production at a new node.
    I am not privvy to that information but good business sense tells me that few companies would voluntarily depend on Apple as an exclusive customer. That means that TMSC could actually court alternatives to keep its options open and favour a stable mixed relationship with its clients to be covered in a worst case scenario.
    You have shown nothing to me, or anyone else here at AI for that matter, of your having any business acumen, at all.

    Lecturing myself, Mel , or Eric on the folly of TMSC working closely with a long term, large, and leading edge, company like Apple is the height of your delusion. TMSC is the leader in SOC fab precisely because they earned the business of Apple and Qualcomm, amongst others, so having Apple contract for the earliest and largest segment, of the lead production, of a cutting edge node, is kind of a big deal, one that Samsung certainly wishes that it had won multiples times in the past. 
    Where do you get the idea that I lecture absolutely anybody? I give my opinion and defend it. That's it.

    If we're talking about opinions, there is no right one or wrong one.

    Facts are always right, which is why they’re called facts. There is no such thing as a wrong fact. If someone posts something that they claim is a fact, and it’s wrong, then it’s not a fact.

    opinions can be right or wrong. There is no such thing that all opinions can be right or wrong, depending on perspective. Either someone reaches a correct conclusion, depending on facts, or they don’t. But it takes knowledge of the subject, experience, and having the availability of the facts. It’s neutral. Whether or not someone likes something, or not, or is paid, or not, doesn’t enter into it.

    ive found, over the decades, that Apple is the most reliable company I’ve dealt with. They aren’t perfect, but they don’t intend to deceive, as some other companies do. That’s why I buy their products, and own their stock. But I don’t agree with everything they do.

    thats the best I can do, and I would hope, what others try to do also.
    ericthehalfbeeStrangeDayswatto_cobra
  • Reply 64 of 88
    SoliSoli Posts: 8,172member
    melgross said:
    avon b7 said:
    Where do you get the idea that I lecture absolutely anybody? I give my opinion and defend it. That's it.

    If we're talking about opinions, there is no right one or wrong one.

    Facts are always right, which is why they’re called facts. There is no such thing as a wrong fact. If someone posts something that they claim is a fact, and it’s wrong, then it’s not a fact.
    True, but facts one day can become un-factual another.. There's even statistical data that measures the half-life of facts.

    edited September 4 StrangeDayswatto_cobragatorguy
  • Reply 65 of 88
    avon b7 said:
    avon b7 said:
    tmay said:
    avon b7 said:
    tmay said:
    avon b7 said:
    tmay said:
    avon b7 said:
    avon b7 said:
    HiSilicon (Huawei) has had 7nm chips in mass production (TSMC) since around June according to many rumours. It has also been said that they have a contractual amount of orders (millions) to be fulfilled for launch phones (suspected to be three models in the short term). 

    Apple needs volume on launch because it releases one refresh every year.

    Huawei will release four flagship phones over the coming 12 months and as a result doesn't have anywhere near the pent up demand for September/October release. It will be spread out over the year and before year's end the Kirin 980 will also be in mid tier devices as well as non-handset devices.

    Quite why this report exists is a mystery as Huawei presented the Kirin 980 just last week to a world audience at IFA Berlin, live blogged and all:

    https://www.anandtech.com/show/13302/ifa-2018-huawei-kirin-980-keynote-live-blog

    They said it took three years to develop and gave the date of presentation for the first phone to use it: 16th October.

    Honor said the Magic 2 would also use it very soon. Rumours point to a December release. They wouldn't have announced that part if supply constraints were expected.

    This is the second time DigiTimes has made this type of claim (I'm basing this on AI articles). The first time was when they claimed only Apple and Samsung had the financial resources to bring 7nm to market.

    https://appleinsider.com/articles/17/12/13/apple-samsung-could-be-only-smartphone-makers-with-7nm-chips-in-2018

    blah blah Kirin blah blah Huawei blah blah 7nm blah blah

    Nobody cares about your constant Huawei shilling.

    Apple will be the THE FIRST company on the planet with 7nm chips. This is a fact. Huawei "announcing" they have the Kirin 980 means absolutely nothing. Apple will have working iPhones with the A12 7nm chip on September 12th. And they'll have 10's of millions shipping out a week later. Which means Apple would have had already received millions of A12 processors months ago. Unless you think you can fab a processor (in the millions) in only a couple days, and then get them into iPhones (by the millions) in a couple more days.

    All Huawei is trying to do is trick gullible/stupid people into thinking they were first, because Huawei knows Apple won't say anything about their A12 processor. So they can yap all they want knowing full well Apple will stay silent. Intelligent people know who's first (using INDUSTRY ACCEPTED STANDARDS). And that is Apple.

    Announcing is not shipping. The Kirin 980 is vaporware at this point. Just like last year when Huawei lied and claimed the Kirin 970 was the first processor with a neural processor (the A11 from Apple was first, and the 970 didn't ship until months later) by "announcing" it just before the iPhone came out. Do people actually fall for this crap?



    Now speaking about the 980, how come it takes Huawei years and over 1,000 engineers to build a processor that uses off-the-shelf CPU and GPU cores? And still uses the vastly inferior UFS for storage (while Apple will be on their 4th generation NVMe)? What exactly have they developed in terms of IP related to processors?

    I see you linked Anandtech, but left out the performance claims. They're stating a Geekbench single core score of 3,300 for an A76 core (as used in the 980). The A11 scores 4,200. So a year old A11 core on the older 10nm process is STILL significantly faster than an A76 core on 7nm. Doesn't seem that impressive to me. At all.
    Cores and SoCs. Two different things. SoCs and phones. Two different things.

    Vapourware? The Kirin 980 was sitting there and running at IFA 2018. It is just waiting for the phone to launch (October 16th).
    Huawei only has a small volume of Kirin 980 samples until TMSC has met its contractual obligations to Apple. Neither you nor I know if or when Kirin 980 production has started or will start.
    How on earth can you know that?
    Uhm, because Apple spends the most money, by far, and has one of the longest running exclusive relationships at TMSC, and the fact that Apple has volume production of the iPhone in process, with deliveries beginning in just a couple of weeks.

    If this wasn't the case, why would Huawei have waited to release the new phones in mid October? They could have moved heaven and earth to have these phones ready before Apple, but only if they had processors in volume before Apple does. It wouldn't even need to be a big volume, just a few millions shipped to a single market.

    I gave you a scenario where Apple ships 85 m iPhones this quarter, which will work out to about 60 million of the three new models. That will drive renege over $100B for the quarter.

    EDIT;

    I would also note that TMSC makes, unless I am in error, all of the other SoC's that Apple uses for all of the older model iPhones, for the Watch, AppleTV, AirPod's, et al, although not all of them are or need to be, at the newest node.
    So, that was the long winded version of 'you don't know at all'. Great!

    Think about it for a moment. Huawei could release it today if it wanted. No need to move heaven and earth. We're talking about a few weeks difference and there were rumours of mass Kirin 980 production as far back as April this year It could  limit the release to just one region and phase the roll out. Just like many manufacturers (including Huawei already do).

    Now think a little harder. Could it be that Huawei might just have its own plans for release and not give a damn about Apple?

    You know, like releasing the Mate 20 in exactly the same way as it released the Mate 10?
    I have given you a logical scenario, based on Apple being TMSC's preeminent and exclusive customer, and its volumes of 7nm production, as well as total production. Your retort is that Huawei "has its own plans", rather than a later access to 7nm production.

    Which scenario is most likely?

    Certainly not yours.
    Ah, now it boils down to logical scenarios.

    Here's another one for you to chew on.

    Don't you think that contractual obligations also exist between TMSC and ALL its customers????

    Or do you think there are clauses in their contracts that hold disclaimers like:

    "You will get your chips as long as we have spare capacity after fulfilling Apple's orders"

    What is logical in that? You have no reason to doubt Huawei has everything it ordered for launch, not even the infamous virus issue.

    Why? Because they haven't said ANYTHING to that effect and have announced that at least two phones (one from Honor and one from Huawei) will be shipping soon.

    Apple will beat Huawei at everything regarding 7nm chips. Apple would have finished taping out sooner, they would have placed their multi-million order sooner, they will receive those millions of chips sooner and they will be selling them in actual devices sooner. Every single step of the way Apple will be ahead of Huawei. This is simple logic. How else could Apple fulfill 10's of millions of iPhone sales (in the first month) if they were somehow behind Huawei in the production of 7nm chips? It's simply not possible.

    Yet despite being ahead of Huawei at literally everything, you want to take Huawei's "announcement" of their processor as definitive proof they they are first. Utterly pathetic, even for a troll.
    You lost me there.

    Please quote me so I have an inkling of what you are talking about. Don't put words into my mouth, just quote me.

    Better yet, I'll ask you point blank.

    Who will be the first company with 7nm processors? Apple or Huawei?
    watto_cobra
  • Reply 66 of 88
    avon b7avon b7 Posts: 2,602member
    avon b7 said:
    avon b7 said:
    tmay said:
    avon b7 said:
    tmay said:
    avon b7 said:
    tmay said:
    avon b7 said:
    avon b7 said:
    HiSilicon (Huawei) has had 7nm chips in mass production (TSMC) since around June according to many rumours. It has also been said that they have a contractual amount of orders (millions) to be fulfilled for launch phones (suspected to be three models in the short term). 

    Apple needs volume on launch because it releases one refresh every year.

    Huawei will release four flagship phones over the coming 12 months and as a result doesn't have anywhere near the pent up demand for September/October release. It will be spread out over the year and before year's end the Kirin 980 will also be in mid tier devices as well as non-handset devices.

    Quite why this report exists is a mystery as Huawei presented the Kirin 980 just last week to a world audience at IFA Berlin, live blogged and all:

    https://www.anandtech.com/show/13302/ifa-2018-huawei-kirin-980-keynote-live-blog

    They said it took three years to develop and gave the date of presentation for the first phone to use it: 16th October.

    Honor said the Magic 2 would also use it very soon. Rumours point to a December release. They wouldn't have announced that part if supply constraints were expected.

    This is the second time DigiTimes has made this type of claim (I'm basing this on AI articles). The first time was when they claimed only Apple and Samsung had the financial resources to bring 7nm to market.

    https://appleinsider.com/articles/17/12/13/apple-samsung-could-be-only-smartphone-makers-with-7nm-chips-in-2018

    blah blah Kirin blah blah Huawei blah blah 7nm blah blah

    Nobody cares about your constant Huawei shilling.

    Apple will be the THE FIRST company on the planet with 7nm chips. This is a fact. Huawei "announcing" they have the Kirin 980 means absolutely nothing. Apple will have working iPhones with the A12 7nm chip on September 12th. And they'll have 10's of millions shipping out a week later. Which means Apple would have had already received millions of A12 processors months ago. Unless you think you can fab a processor (in the millions) in only a couple days, and then get them into iPhones (by the millions) in a couple more days.

    All Huawei is trying to do is trick gullible/stupid people into thinking they were first, because Huawei knows Apple won't say anything about their A12 processor. So they can yap all they want knowing full well Apple will stay silent. Intelligent people know who's first (using INDUSTRY ACCEPTED STANDARDS). And that is Apple.

    Announcing is not shipping. The Kirin 980 is vaporware at this point. Just like last year when Huawei lied and claimed the Kirin 970 was the first processor with a neural processor (the A11 from Apple was first, and the 970 didn't ship until months later) by "announcing" it just before the iPhone came out. Do people actually fall for this crap?



    Now speaking about the 980, how come it takes Huawei years and over 1,000 engineers to build a processor that uses off-the-shelf CPU and GPU cores? And still uses the vastly inferior UFS for storage (while Apple will be on their 4th generation NVMe)? What exactly have they developed in terms of IP related to processors?

    I see you linked Anandtech, but left out the performance claims. They're stating a Geekbench single core score of 3,300 for an A76 core (as used in the 980). The A11 scores 4,200. So a year old A11 core on the older 10nm process is STILL significantly faster than an A76 core on 7nm. Doesn't seem that impressive to me. At all.
    Cores and SoCs. Two different things. SoCs and phones. Two different things.

    Vapourware? The Kirin 980 was sitting there and running at IFA 2018. It is just waiting for the phone to launch (October 16th).
    Huawei only has a small volume of Kirin 980 samples until TMSC has met its contractual obligations to Apple. Neither you nor I know if or when Kirin 980 production has started or will start.
    How on earth can you know that?
    Uhm, because Apple spends the most money, by far, and has one of the longest running exclusive relationships at TMSC, and the fact that Apple has volume production of the iPhone in process, with deliveries beginning in just a couple of weeks.

    If this wasn't the case, why would Huawei have waited to release the new phones in mid October? They could have moved heaven and earth to have these phones ready before Apple, but only if they had processors in volume before Apple does. It wouldn't even need to be a big volume, just a few millions shipped to a single market.

    I gave you a scenario where Apple ships 85 m iPhones this quarter, which will work out to about 60 million of the three new models. That will drive renege over $100B for the quarter.

    EDIT;

    I would also note that TMSC makes, unless I am in error, all of the other SoC's that Apple uses for all of the older model iPhones, for the Watch, AppleTV, AirPod's, et al, although not all of them are or need to be, at the newest node.
    So, that was the long winded version of 'you don't know at all'. Great!

    Think about it for a moment. Huawei could release it today if it wanted. No need to move heaven and earth. We're talking about a few weeks difference and there were rumours of mass Kirin 980 production as far back as April this year It could  limit the release to just one region and phase the roll out. Just like many manufacturers (including Huawei already do).

    Now think a little harder. Could it be that Huawei might just have its own plans for release and not give a damn about Apple?

    You know, like releasing the Mate 20 in exactly the same way as it released the Mate 10?
    I have given you a logical scenario, based on Apple being TMSC's preeminent and exclusive customer, and its volumes of 7nm production, as well as total production. Your retort is that Huawei "has its own plans", rather than a later access to 7nm production.

    Which scenario is most likely?

    Certainly not yours.
    Ah, now it boils down to logical scenarios.

    Here's another one for you to chew on.

    Don't you think that contractual obligations also exist between TMSC and ALL its customers????

    Or do you think there are clauses in their contracts that hold disclaimers like:

    "You will get your chips as long as we have spare capacity after fulfilling Apple's orders"

    What is logical in that? You have no reason to doubt Huawei has everything it ordered for launch, not even the infamous virus issue.

    Why? Because they haven't said ANYTHING to that effect and have announced that at least two phones (one from Honor and one from Huawei) will be shipping soon.

    Apple will beat Huawei at everything regarding 7nm chips. Apple would have finished taping out sooner, they would have placed their multi-million order sooner, they will receive those millions of chips sooner and they will be selling them in actual devices sooner. Every single step of the way Apple will be ahead of Huawei. This is simple logic. How else could Apple fulfill 10's of millions of iPhone sales (in the first month) if they were somehow behind Huawei in the production of 7nm chips? It's simply not possible.

    Yet despite being ahead of Huawei at literally everything, you want to take Huawei's "announcement" of their processor as definitive proof they they are first. Utterly pathetic, even for a troll.
    You lost me there.

    Please quote me so I have an inkling of what you are talking about. Don't put words into my mouth, just quote me.

    Better yet, I'll ask you point blank.

    Who will be the first company with 7nm processors? Apple or Huawei?
    Easy. Huawei. LOL. I saw one at IFA. It was officially presented in Berlin (Germany, not Connecticut). There was even a Huawei employee walking around with a phone that probably had one inside!

    Nothing official from Apple though.

    I bet you wished you had worded that question better!

    Now, please quote me. I would like you to tell me point blank and 'in my own words' which part is the problem part.

    You charged in yet again with your troll calling and no respect. it isn't the first time either so please provide the quote.
    edited September 4
  • Reply 67 of 88
    avon b7 said:
    avon b7 said:
    avon b7 said:
    tmay said:
    avon b7 said:
    tmay said:
    avon b7 said:
    tmay said:
    avon b7 said:
    avon b7 said:
    HiSilicon (Huawei) has had 7nm chips in mass production (TSMC) since around June according to many rumours. It has also been said that they have a contractual amount of orders (millions) to be fulfilled for launch phones (suspected to be three models in the short term). 

    Apple needs volume on launch because it releases one refresh every year.

    Huawei will release four flagship phones over the coming 12 months and as a result doesn't have anywhere near the pent up demand for September/October release. It will be spread out over the year and before year's end the Kirin 980 will also be in mid tier devices as well as non-handset devices.

    Quite why this report exists is a mystery as Huawei presented the Kirin 980 just last week to a world audience at IFA Berlin, live blogged and all:

    https://www.anandtech.com/show/13302/ifa-2018-huawei-kirin-980-keynote-live-blog

    They said it took three years to develop and gave the date of presentation for the first phone to use it: 16th October.

    Honor said the Magic 2 would also use it very soon. Rumours point to a December release. They wouldn't have announced that part if supply constraints were expected.

    This is the second time DigiTimes has made this type of claim (I'm basing this on AI articles). The first time was when they claimed only Apple and Samsung had the financial resources to bring 7nm to market.

    https://appleinsider.com/articles/17/12/13/apple-samsung-could-be-only-smartphone-makers-with-7nm-chips-in-2018

    blah blah Kirin blah blah Huawei blah blah 7nm blah blah

    Nobody cares about your constant Huawei shilling.

    Apple will be the THE FIRST company on the planet with 7nm chips. This is a fact. Huawei "announcing" they have the Kirin 980 means absolutely nothing. Apple will have working iPhones with the A12 7nm chip on September 12th. And they'll have 10's of millions shipping out a week later. Which means Apple would have had already received millions of A12 processors months ago. Unless you think you can fab a processor (in the millions) in only a couple days, and then get them into iPhones (by the millions) in a couple more days.

    All Huawei is trying to do is trick gullible/stupid people into thinking they were first, because Huawei knows Apple won't say anything about their A12 processor. So they can yap all they want knowing full well Apple will stay silent. Intelligent people know who's first (using INDUSTRY ACCEPTED STANDARDS). And that is Apple.

    Announcing is not shipping. The Kirin 980 is vaporware at this point. Just like last year when Huawei lied and claimed the Kirin 970 was the first processor with a neural processor (the A11 from Apple was first, and the 970 didn't ship until months later) by "announcing" it just before the iPhone came out. Do people actually fall for this crap?



    Now speaking about the 980, how come it takes Huawei years and over 1,000 engineers to build a processor that uses off-the-shelf CPU and GPU cores? And still uses the vastly inferior UFS for storage (while Apple will be on their 4th generation NVMe)? What exactly have they developed in terms of IP related to processors?

    I see you linked Anandtech, but left out the performance claims. They're stating a Geekbench single core score of 3,300 for an A76 core (as used in the 980). The A11 scores 4,200. So a year old A11 core on the older 10nm process is STILL significantly faster than an A76 core on 7nm. Doesn't seem that impressive to me. At all.
    Cores and SoCs. Two different things. SoCs and phones. Two different things.

    Vapourware? The Kirin 980 was sitting there and running at IFA 2018. It is just waiting for the phone to launch (October 16th).
    Huawei only has a small volume of Kirin 980 samples until TMSC has met its contractual obligations to Apple. Neither you nor I know if or when Kirin 980 production has started or will start.
    How on earth can you know that?
    Uhm, because Apple spends the most money, by far, and has one of the longest running exclusive relationships at TMSC, and the fact that Apple has volume production of the iPhone in process, with deliveries beginning in just a couple of weeks.

    If this wasn't the case, why would Huawei have waited to release the new phones in mid October? They could have moved heaven and earth to have these phones ready before Apple, but only if they had processors in volume before Apple does. It wouldn't even need to be a big volume, just a few millions shipped to a single market.

    I gave you a scenario where Apple ships 85 m iPhones this quarter, which will work out to about 60 million of the three new models. That will drive renege over $100B for the quarter.

    EDIT;

    I would also note that TMSC makes, unless I am in error, all of the other SoC's that Apple uses for all of the older model iPhones, for the Watch, AppleTV, AirPod's, et al, although not all of them are or need to be, at the newest node.
    So, that was the long winded version of 'you don't know at all'. Great!

    Think about it for a moment. Huawei could release it today if it wanted. No need to move heaven and earth. We're talking about a few weeks difference and there were rumours of mass Kirin 980 production as far back as April this year It could  limit the release to just one region and phase the roll out. Just like many manufacturers (including Huawei already do).

    Now think a little harder. Could it be that Huawei might just have its own plans for release and not give a damn about Apple?

    You know, like releasing the Mate 20 in exactly the same way as it released the Mate 10?
    I have given you a logical scenario, based on Apple being TMSC's preeminent and exclusive customer, and its volumes of 7nm production, as well as total production. Your retort is that Huawei "has its own plans", rather than a later access to 7nm production.

    Which scenario is most likely?

    Certainly not yours.
    Ah, now it boils down to logical scenarios.

    Here's another one for you to chew on.

    Don't you think that contractual obligations also exist between TMSC and ALL its customers????

    Or do you think there are clauses in their contracts that hold disclaimers like:

    "You will get your chips as long as we have spare capacity after fulfilling Apple's orders"

    What is logical in that? You have no reason to doubt Huawei has everything it ordered for launch, not even the infamous virus issue.

    Why? Because they haven't said ANYTHING to that effect and have announced that at least two phones (one from Honor and one from Huawei) will be shipping soon.

    Apple will beat Huawei at everything regarding 7nm chips. Apple would have finished taping out sooner, they would have placed their multi-million order sooner, they will receive those millions of chips sooner and they will be selling them in actual devices sooner. Every single step of the way Apple will be ahead of Huawei. This is simple logic. How else could Apple fulfill 10's of millions of iPhone sales (in the first month) if they were somehow behind Huawei in the production of 7nm chips? It's simply not possible.

    Yet despite being ahead of Huawei at literally everything, you want to take Huawei's "announcement" of their processor as definitive proof they they are first. Utterly pathetic, even for a troll.
    You lost me there.

    Please quote me so I have an inkling of what you are talking about. Don't put words into my mouth, just quote me.

    Better yet, I'll ask you point blank.

    Who will be the first company with 7nm processors? Apple or Huawei?
    Easy. Huawei. LOL. I saw one at IFA. It was officially presented in Berlin (Germany, not Connecticut). There was even a Huawei employee walking around with a phone that probably had one inside!

    Nothing official from Apple though.

    I bet you wished you had worded that question better!

    Now, please quote me. I would like you to tell me point blank and 'in my own words' which part is the problem part.

    You charged in yet again with your troll calling and no respect. it isn't the first time either so please provide the quote.
    Again, a prototype that is not from an actual product sold to an actual customer, does not meet any non-troll definition of being first to the market. You’re just playing stupid word games now, because your pride won’t let you concede being wrong. Your knockoff won’t be first to market. Again. That’s what happens when your heroes are chinese knockoffs. 
    edited September 4 ericthehalfbeewatto_cobra
  • Reply 68 of 88
    avon b7avon b7 Posts: 2,602member
    avon b7 said:
    avon b7 said:
    avon b7 said:
    tmay said:
    avon b7 said:
    tmay said:
    avon b7 said:
    tmay said:
    avon b7 said:
    avon b7 said:
    HiSilicon (Huawei) has had 7nm chips in mass production (TSMC) since around June according to many rumours. It has also been said that they have a contractual amount of orders (millions) to be fulfilled for launch phones (suspected to be three models in the short term). 

    Apple needs volume on launch because it releases one refresh every year.

    Huawei will release four flagship phones over the coming 12 months and as a result doesn't have anywhere near the pent up demand for September/October release. It will be spread out over the year and before year's end the Kirin 980 will also be in mid tier devices as well as non-handset devices.

    Quite why this report exists is a mystery as Huawei presented the Kirin 980 just last week to a world audience at IFA Berlin, live blogged and all:

    https://www.anandtech.com/show/13302/ifa-2018-huawei-kirin-980-keynote-live-blog

    They said it took three years to develop and gave the date of presentation for the first phone to use it: 16th October.

    Honor said the Magic 2 would also use it very soon. Rumours point to a December release. They wouldn't have announced that part if supply constraints were expected.

    This is the second time DigiTimes has made this type of claim (I'm basing this on AI articles). The first time was when they claimed only Apple and Samsung had the financial resources to bring 7nm to market.

    https://appleinsider.com/articles/17/12/13/apple-samsung-could-be-only-smartphone-makers-with-7nm-chips-in-2018

    blah blah Kirin blah blah Huawei blah blah 7nm blah blah

    Nobody cares about your constant Huawei shilling.

    Apple will be the THE FIRST company on the planet with 7nm chips. This is a fact. Huawei "announcing" they have the Kirin 980 means absolutely nothing. Apple will have working iPhones with the A12 7nm chip on September 12th. And they'll have 10's of millions shipping out a week later. Which means Apple would have had already received millions of A12 processors months ago. Unless you think you can fab a processor (in the millions) in only a couple days, and then get them into iPhones (by the millions) in a couple more days.

    All Huawei is trying to do is trick gullible/stupid people into thinking they were first, because Huawei knows Apple won't say anything about their A12 processor. So they can yap all they want knowing full well Apple will stay silent. Intelligent people know who's first (using INDUSTRY ACCEPTED STANDARDS). And that is Apple.

    Announcing is not shipping. The Kirin 980 is vaporware at this point. Just like last year when Huawei lied and claimed the Kirin 970 was the first processor with a neural processor (the A11 from Apple was first, and the 970 didn't ship until months later) by "announcing" it just before the iPhone came out. Do people actually fall for this crap?



    Now speaking about the 980, how come it takes Huawei years and over 1,000 engineers to build a processor that uses off-the-shelf CPU and GPU cores? And still uses the vastly inferior UFS for storage (while Apple will be on their 4th generation NVMe)? What exactly have they developed in terms of IP related to processors?

    I see you linked Anandtech, but left out the performance claims. They're stating a Geekbench single core score of 3,300 for an A76 core (as used in the 980). The A11 scores 4,200. So a year old A11 core on the older 10nm process is STILL significantly faster than an A76 core on 7nm. Doesn't seem that impressive to me. At all.
    Cores and SoCs. Two different things. SoCs and phones. Two different things.

    Vapourware? The Kirin 980 was sitting there and running at IFA 2018. It is just waiting for the phone to launch (October 16th).
    Huawei only has a small volume of Kirin 980 samples until TMSC has met its contractual obligations to Apple. Neither you nor I know if or when Kirin 980 production has started or will start.
    How on earth can you know that?
    Uhm, because Apple spends the most money, by far, and has one of the longest running exclusive relationships at TMSC, and the fact that Apple has volume production of the iPhone in process, with deliveries beginning in just a couple of weeks.

    If this wasn't the case, why would Huawei have waited to release the new phones in mid October? They could have moved heaven and earth to have these phones ready before Apple, but only if they had processors in volume before Apple does. It wouldn't even need to be a big volume, just a few millions shipped to a single market.

    I gave you a scenario where Apple ships 85 m iPhones this quarter, which will work out to about 60 million of the three new models. That will drive renege over $100B for the quarter.

    EDIT;

    I would also note that TMSC makes, unless I am in error, all of the other SoC's that Apple uses for all of the older model iPhones, for the Watch, AppleTV, AirPod's, et al, although not all of them are or need to be, at the newest node.
    So, that was the long winded version of 'you don't know at all'. Great!

    Think about it for a moment. Huawei could release it today if it wanted. No need to move heaven and earth. We're talking about a few weeks difference and there were rumours of mass Kirin 980 production as far back as April this year It could  limit the release to just one region and phase the roll out. Just like many manufacturers (including Huawei already do).

    Now think a little harder. Could it be that Huawei might just have its own plans for release and not give a damn about Apple?

    You know, like releasing the Mate 20 in exactly the same way as it released the Mate 10?
    I have given you a logical scenario, based on Apple being TMSC's preeminent and exclusive customer, and its volumes of 7nm production, as well as total production. Your retort is that Huawei "has its own plans", rather than a later access to 7nm production.

    Which scenario is most likely?

    Certainly not yours.
    Ah, now it boils down to logical scenarios.

    Here's another one for you to chew on.

    Don't you think that contractual obligations also exist between TMSC and ALL its customers????

    Or do you think there are clauses in their contracts that hold disclaimers like:

    "You will get your chips as long as we have spare capacity after fulfilling Apple's orders"

    What is logical in that? You have no reason to doubt Huawei has everything it ordered for launch, not even the infamous virus issue.

    Why? Because they haven't said ANYTHING to that effect and have announced that at least two phones (one from Honor and one from Huawei) will be shipping soon.

    Apple will beat Huawei at everything regarding 7nm chips. Apple would have finished taping out sooner, they would have placed their multi-million order sooner, they will receive those millions of chips sooner and they will be selling them in actual devices sooner. Every single step of the way Apple will be ahead of Huawei. This is simple logic. How else could Apple fulfill 10's of millions of iPhone sales (in the first month) if they were somehow behind Huawei in the production of 7nm chips? It's simply not possible.

    Yet despite being ahead of Huawei at literally everything, you want to take Huawei's "announcement" of their processor as definitive proof they they are first. Utterly pathetic, even for a troll.
    You lost me there.

    Please quote me so I have an inkling of what you are talking about. Don't put words into my mouth, just quote me.

    Better yet, I'll ask you point blank.

    Who will be the first company with 7nm processors? Apple or Huawei?
    Easy. Huawei. LOL. I saw one at IFA. It was officially presented in Berlin (Germany, not Connecticut). There was even a Huawei employee walking around with a phone that probably had one inside!

    Nothing official from Apple though.

    I bet you wished you had worded that question better!

    Now, please quote me. I would like you to tell me point blank and 'in my own words' which part is the problem part.

    You charged in yet again with your troll calling and no respect. it isn't the first time either so please provide the quote.
    Again, a prototype that is not from an actual product sold to an actual customer, does not meet any non-troll definition of being first to the market. You’re just playing stupid word games now, because your pride won’t let you concede being wrong. Your knockoff won’t be first to market. Again. That’s what happens when your heroes are chinese knockoffs. 
    Wrong on what exactly? Can you quote me and tell me where you are getting this from?
  • Reply 69 of 88
    avon b7 said:
    avon b7 said:
    avon b7 said:
    tmay said:
    avon b7 said:
    tmay said:
    avon b7 said:
    tmay said:
    avon b7 said:
    avon b7 said:
    HiSilicon (Huawei) has had 7nm chips in mass production (TSMC) since around June according to many rumours. It has also been said that they have a contractual amount of orders (millions) to be fulfilled for launch phones (suspected to be three models in the short term). 

    Apple needs volume on launch because it releases one refresh every year.

    Huawei will release four flagship phones over the coming 12 months and as a result doesn't have anywhere near the pent up demand for September/October release. It will be spread out over the year and before year's end the Kirin 980 will also be in mid tier devices as well as non-handset devices.

    Quite why this report exists is a mystery as Huawei presented the Kirin 980 just last week to a world audience at IFA Berlin, live blogged and all:

    https://www.anandtech.com/show/13302/ifa-2018-huawei-kirin-980-keynote-live-blog

    They said it took three years to develop and gave the date of presentation for the first phone to use it: 16th October.

    Honor said the Magic 2 would also use it very soon. Rumours point to a December release. They wouldn't have announced that part if supply constraints were expected.

    This is the second time DigiTimes has made this type of claim (I'm basing this on AI articles). The first time was when they claimed only Apple and Samsung had the financial resources to bring 7nm to market.

    https://appleinsider.com/articles/17/12/13/apple-samsung-could-be-only-smartphone-makers-with-7nm-chips-in-2018

    blah blah Kirin blah blah Huawei blah blah 7nm blah blah

    Nobody cares about your constant Huawei shilling.

    Apple will be the THE FIRST company on the planet with 7nm chips. This is a fact. Huawei "announcing" they have the Kirin 980 means absolutely nothing. Apple will have working iPhones with the A12 7nm chip on September 12th. And they'll have 10's of millions shipping out a week later. Which means Apple would have had already received millions of A12 processors months ago. Unless you think you can fab a processor (in the millions) in only a couple days, and then get them into iPhones (by the millions) in a couple more days.

    All Huawei is trying to do is trick gullible/stupid people into thinking they were first, because Huawei knows Apple won't say anything about their A12 processor. So they can yap all they want knowing full well Apple will stay silent. Intelligent people know who's first (using INDUSTRY ACCEPTED STANDARDS). And that is Apple.

    Announcing is not shipping. The Kirin 980 is vaporware at this point. Just like last year when Huawei lied and claimed the Kirin 970 was the first processor with a neural processor (the A11 from Apple was first, and the 970 didn't ship until months later) by "announcing" it just before the iPhone came out. Do people actually fall for this crap?



    Now speaking about the 980, how come it takes Huawei years and over 1,000 engineers to build a processor that uses off-the-shelf CPU and GPU cores? And still uses the vastly inferior UFS for storage (while Apple will be on their 4th generation NVMe)? What exactly have they developed in terms of IP related to processors?

    I see you linked Anandtech, but left out the performance claims. They're stating a Geekbench single core score of 3,300 for an A76 core (as used in the 980). The A11 scores 4,200. So a year old A11 core on the older 10nm process is STILL significantly faster than an A76 core on 7nm. Doesn't seem that impressive to me. At all.
    Cores and SoCs. Two different things. SoCs and phones. Two different things.

    Vapourware? The Kirin 980 was sitting there and running at IFA 2018. It is just waiting for the phone to launch (October 16th).
    Huawei only has a small volume of Kirin 980 samples until TMSC has met its contractual obligations to Apple. Neither you nor I know if or when Kirin 980 production has started or will start.
    How on earth can you know that?
    Uhm, because Apple spends the most money, by far, and has one of the longest running exclusive relationships at TMSC, and the fact that Apple has volume production of the iPhone in process, with deliveries beginning in just a couple of weeks.

    If this wasn't the case, why would Huawei have waited to release the new phones in mid October? They could have moved heaven and earth to have these phones ready before Apple, but only if they had processors in volume before Apple does. It wouldn't even need to be a big volume, just a few millions shipped to a single market.

    I gave you a scenario where Apple ships 85 m iPhones this quarter, which will work out to about 60 million of the three new models. That will drive renege over $100B for the quarter.

    EDIT;

    I would also note that TMSC makes, unless I am in error, all of the other SoC's that Apple uses for all of the older model iPhones, for the Watch, AppleTV, AirPod's, et al, although not all of them are or need to be, at the newest node.
    So, that was the long winded version of 'you don't know at all'. Great!

    Think about it for a moment. Huawei could release it today if it wanted. No need to move heaven and earth. We're talking about a few weeks difference and there were rumours of mass Kirin 980 production as far back as April this year It could  limit the release to just one region and phase the roll out. Just like many manufacturers (including Huawei already do).

    Now think a little harder. Could it be that Huawei might just have its own plans for release and not give a damn about Apple?

    You know, like releasing the Mate 20 in exactly the same way as it released the Mate 10?
    I have given you a logical scenario, based on Apple being TMSC's preeminent and exclusive customer, and its volumes of 7nm production, as well as total production. Your retort is that Huawei "has its own plans", rather than a later access to 7nm production.

    Which scenario is most likely?

    Certainly not yours.
    Ah, now it boils down to logical scenarios.

    Here's another one for you to chew on.

    Don't you think that contractual obligations also exist between TMSC and ALL its customers????

    Or do you think there are clauses in their contracts that hold disclaimers like:

    "You will get your chips as long as we have spare capacity after fulfilling Apple's orders"

    What is logical in that? You have no reason to doubt Huawei has everything it ordered for launch, not even the infamous virus issue.

    Why? Because they haven't said ANYTHING to that effect and have announced that at least two phones (one from Honor and one from Huawei) will be shipping soon.

    Apple will beat Huawei at everything regarding 7nm chips. Apple would have finished taping out sooner, they would have placed their multi-million order sooner, they will receive those millions of chips sooner and they will be selling them in actual devices sooner. Every single step of the way Apple will be ahead of Huawei. This is simple logic. How else could Apple fulfill 10's of millions of iPhone sales (in the first month) if they were somehow behind Huawei in the production of 7nm chips? It's simply not possible.

    Yet despite being ahead of Huawei at literally everything, you want to take Huawei's "announcement" of their processor as definitive proof they they are first. Utterly pathetic, even for a troll.
    You lost me there.

    Please quote me so I have an inkling of what you are talking about. Don't put words into my mouth, just quote me.

    Better yet, I'll ask you point blank.

    Who will be the first company with 7nm processors? Apple or Huawei?
    Easy. Huawei. LOL. I saw one at IFA. It was officially presented in Berlin (Germany, not Connecticut). There was even a Huawei employee walking around with a phone that probably had one inside!

    Nothing official from Apple though.

    I bet you wished you had worded that question better!

    Now, please quote me. I would like you to tell me point blank and 'in my own words' which part is the problem part.

    You charged in yet again with your troll calling and no respect. it isn't the first time either so please provide the quote.

    Wrong. Apple will be first. And you're a troll based on your entire post history. I'm far from the only person to call you out on it. Respect is earned, and constant trolling/shilling has already given people plenty enough to form an accurate opinion of you.

    Your problem is you shy away from explicitly stating your position. You will counter others who make a claim which implies you believe the opposite, but by never actually stating the opposite you can make the claim that people are "putting words into your mouth" or demand people "show me where I said.....". Classic troll technique, and another bullet point to add to the list that proves you're a troll.

    I don't need to word anything better as I'm 100% correct and you're wrong. Apple will be first (unless AMD or Nvidia magically release a video card in the next couple days and beats Apple to market). There's a reason why first to market is the winner, and not first to announce.
    tmayStrangeDayswatto_cobra
  • Reply 70 of 88
    melgrossmelgross Posts: 30,850member
    Soli said:
    melgross said:
    avon b7 said:
    Where do you get the idea that I lecture absolutely anybody? I give my opinion and defend it. That's it.

    If we're talking about opinions, there is no right one or wrong one.

    Facts are always right, which is why they’re called facts. There is no such thing as a wrong fact. If someone posts something that they claim is a fact, and it’s wrong, then it’s not a fact.
    True, but facts one day can become un-factual another.. There's even statistical data that measures the half-life of facts.

    It depends on what you mean. If it’s something that not really a fact, such as the fact that the earth orbits the sun, but rather something that’s guessed at, then it was never a fact.
  • Reply 71 of 88
    melgrossmelgross Posts: 30,850member
    avon b7 said:
    avon b7 said:
    avon b7 said:
    tmay said:
    avon b7 said:
    tmay said:
    avon b7 said:
    tmay said:
    avon b7 said:
    avon b7 said:
    HiSilicon (Huawei) has had 7nm chips in mass production (TSMC) since around June according to many rumours. It has also been said that they have a contractual amount of orders (millions) to be fulfilled for launch phones (suspected to be three models in the short term). 

    Apple needs volume on launch because it releases one refresh every year.

    Huawei will release four flagship phones over the coming 12 months and as a result doesn't have anywhere near the pent up demand for September/October release. It will be spread out over the year and before year's end the Kirin 980 will also be in mid tier devices as well as non-handset devices.

    Quite why this report exists is a mystery as Huawei presented the Kirin 980 just last week to a world audience at IFA Berlin, live blogged and all:

    https://www.anandtech.com/show/13302/ifa-2018-huawei-kirin-980-keynote-live-blog

    They said it took three years to develop and gave the date of presentation for the first phone to use it: 16th October.

    Honor said the Magic 2 would also use it very soon. Rumours point to a December release. They wouldn't have announced that part if supply constraints were expected.

    This is the second time DigiTimes has made this type of claim (I'm basing this on AI articles). The first time was when they claimed only Apple and Samsung had the financial resources to bring 7nm to market.

    https://appleinsider.com/articles/17/12/13/apple-samsung-could-be-only-smartphone-makers-with-7nm-chips-in-2018

    blah blah Kirin blah blah Huawei blah blah 7nm blah blah

    Nobody cares about your constant Huawei shilling.

    Apple will be the THE FIRST company on the planet with 7nm chips. This is a fact. Huawei "announcing" they have the Kirin 980 means absolutely nothing. Apple will have working iPhones with the A12 7nm chip on September 12th. And they'll have 10's of millions shipping out a week later. Which means Apple would have had already received millions of A12 processors months ago. Unless you think you can fab a processor (in the millions) in only a couple days, and then get them into iPhones (by the millions) in a couple more days.

    All Huawei is trying to do is trick gullible/stupid people into thinking they were first, because Huawei knows Apple won't say anything about their A12 processor. So they can yap all they want knowing full well Apple will stay silent. Intelligent people know who's first (using INDUSTRY ACCEPTED STANDARDS). And that is Apple.

    Announcing is not shipping. The Kirin 980 is vaporware at this point. Just like last year when Huawei lied and claimed the Kirin 970 was the first processor with a neural processor (the A11 from Apple was first, and the 970 didn't ship until months later) by "announcing" it just before the iPhone came out. Do people actually fall for this crap?



    Now speaking about the 980, how come it takes Huawei years and over 1,000 engineers to build a processor that uses off-the-shelf CPU and GPU cores? And still uses the vastly inferior UFS for storage (while Apple will be on their 4th generation NVMe)? What exactly have they developed in terms of IP related to processors?

    I see you linked Anandtech, but left out the performance claims. They're stating a Geekbench single core score of 3,300 for an A76 core (as used in the 980). The A11 scores 4,200. So a year old A11 core on the older 10nm process is STILL significantly faster than an A76 core on 7nm. Doesn't seem that impressive to me. At all.
    Cores and SoCs. Two different things. SoCs and phones. Two different things.

    Vapourware? The Kirin 980 was sitting there and running at IFA 2018. It is just waiting for the phone to launch (October 16th).
    Huawei only has a small volume of Kirin 980 samples until TMSC has met its contractual obligations to Apple. Neither you nor I know if or when Kirin 980 production has started or will start.
    How on earth can you know that?
    Uhm, because Apple spends the most money, by far, and has one of the longest running exclusive relationships at TMSC, and the fact that Apple has volume production of the iPhone in process, with deliveries beginning in just a couple of weeks.

    If this wasn't the case, why would Huawei have waited to release the new phones in mid October? They could have moved heaven and earth to have these phones ready before Apple, but only if they had processors in volume before Apple does. It wouldn't even need to be a big volume, just a few millions shipped to a single market.

    I gave you a scenario where Apple ships 85 m iPhones this quarter, which will work out to about 60 million of the three new models. That will drive renege over $100B for the quarter.

    EDIT;

    I would also note that TMSC makes, unless I am in error, all of the other SoC's that Apple uses for all of the older model iPhones, for the Watch, AppleTV, AirPod's, et al, although not all of them are or need to be, at the newest node.
    So, that was the long winded version of 'you don't know at all'. Great!

    Think about it for a moment. Huawei could release it today if it wanted. No need to move heaven and earth. We're talking about a few weeks difference and there were rumours of mass Kirin 980 production as far back as April this year It could  limit the release to just one region and phase the roll out. Just like many manufacturers (including Huawei already do).

    Now think a little harder. Could it be that Huawei might just have its own plans for release and not give a damn about Apple?

    You know, like releasing the Mate 20 in exactly the same way as it released the Mate 10?
    I have given you a logical scenario, based on Apple being TMSC's preeminent and exclusive customer, and its volumes of 7nm production, as well as total production. Your retort is that Huawei "has its own plans", rather than a later access to 7nm production.

    Which scenario is most likely?

    Certainly not yours.
    Ah, now it boils down to logical scenarios.

    Here's another one for you to chew on.

    Don't you think that contractual obligations also exist between TMSC and ALL its customers????

    Or do you think there are clauses in their contracts that hold disclaimers like:

    "You will get your chips as long as we have spare capacity after fulfilling Apple's orders"

    What is logical in that? You have no reason to doubt Huawei has everything it ordered for launch, not even the infamous virus issue.

    Why? Because they haven't said ANYTHING to that effect and have announced that at least two phones (one from Honor and one from Huawei) will be shipping soon.

    Apple will beat Huawei at everything regarding 7nm chips. Apple would have finished taping out sooner, they would have placed their multi-million order sooner, they will receive those millions of chips sooner and they will be selling them in actual devices sooner. Every single step of the way Apple will be ahead of Huawei. This is simple logic. How else could Apple fulfill 10's of millions of iPhone sales (in the first month) if they were somehow behind Huawei in the production of 7nm chips? It's simply not possible.

    Yet despite being ahead of Huawei at literally everything, you want to take Huawei's "announcement" of their processor as definitive proof they they are first. Utterly pathetic, even for a troll.
    You lost me there.

    Please quote me so I have an inkling of what you are talking about. Don't put words into my mouth, just quote me.

    Better yet, I'll ask you point blank.

    Who will be the first company with 7nm processors? Apple or Huawei?
    Easy. Huawei. LOL. I saw one at IFA. It was officially presented in Berlin (Germany, not Connecticut). There was even a Huawei employee walking around with a phone that probably had one inside!

    Nothing official from Apple though.

    I bet you wished you had worded that question better!

    Now, please quote me. I would like you to tell me point blank and 'in my own words' which part is the problem part.

    You charged in yet again with your troll calling and no respect. it isn't the first time either so please provide the quote.
    Sorry, but no. That’s meaningless, and you know it.
    tmaywatto_cobra
  • Reply 72 of 88
    avon b7 said:
    avon b7 said:
    avon b7 said:
    avon b7 said:
    tmay said:
    avon b7 said:
    tmay said:
    avon b7 said:
    tmay said:
    avon b7 said:
    avon b7 said:
    HiSilicon (Huawei) has had 7nm chips in mass production (TSMC) since around June according to many rumours. It has also been said that they have a contractual amount of orders (millions) to be fulfilled for launch phones (suspected to be three models in the short term). 

    Apple needs volume on launch because it releases one refresh every year.

    Huawei will release four flagship phones over the coming 12 months and as a result doesn't have anywhere near the pent up demand for September/October release. It will be spread out over the year and before year's end the Kirin 980 will also be in mid tier devices as well as non-handset devices.

    Quite why this report exists is a mystery as Huawei presented the Kirin 980 just last week to a world audience at IFA Berlin, live blogged and all:

    https://www.anandtech.com/show/13302/ifa-2018-huawei-kirin-980-keynote-live-blog

    They said it took three years to develop and gave the date of presentation for the first phone to use it: 16th October.

    Honor said the Magic 2 would also use it very soon. Rumours point to a December release. They wouldn't have announced that part if supply constraints were expected.

    This is the second time DigiTimes has made this type of claim (I'm basing this on AI articles). The first time was when they claimed only Apple and Samsung had the financial resources to bring 7nm to market.

    https://appleinsider.com/articles/17/12/13/apple-samsung-could-be-only-smartphone-makers-with-7nm-chips-in-2018

    blah blah Kirin blah blah Huawei blah blah 7nm blah blah

    Nobody cares about your constant Huawei shilling.

    Apple will be the THE FIRST company on the planet with 7nm chips. This is a fact. Huawei "announcing" they have the Kirin 980 means absolutely nothing. Apple will have working iPhones with the A12 7nm chip on September 12th. And they'll have 10's of millions shipping out a week later. Which means Apple would have had already received millions of A12 processors months ago. Unless you think you can fab a processor (in the millions) in only a couple days, and then get them into iPhones (by the millions) in a couple more days.

    All Huawei is trying to do is trick gullible/stupid people into thinking they were first, because Huawei knows Apple won't say anything about their A12 processor. So they can yap all they want knowing full well Apple will stay silent. Intelligent people know who's first (using INDUSTRY ACCEPTED STANDARDS). And that is Apple.

    Announcing is not shipping. The Kirin 980 is vaporware at this point. Just like last year when Huawei lied and claimed the Kirin 970 was the first processor with a neural processor (the A11 from Apple was first, and the 970 didn't ship until months later) by "announcing" it just before the iPhone came out. Do people actually fall for this crap?



    Now speaking about the 980, how come it takes Huawei years and over 1,000 engineers to build a processor that uses off-the-shelf CPU and GPU cores? And still uses the vastly inferior UFS for storage (while Apple will be on their 4th generation NVMe)? What exactly have they developed in terms of IP related to processors?

    I see you linked Anandtech, but left out the performance claims. They're stating a Geekbench single core score of 3,300 for an A76 core (as used in the 980). The A11 scores 4,200. So a year old A11 core on the older 10nm process is STILL significantly faster than an A76 core on 7nm. Doesn't seem that impressive to me. At all.
    Cores and SoCs. Two different things. SoCs and phones. Two different things.

    Vapourware? The Kirin 980 was sitting there and running at IFA 2018. It is just waiting for the phone to launch (October 16th).
    Huawei only has a small volume of Kirin 980 samples until TMSC has met its contractual obligations to Apple. Neither you nor I know if or when Kirin 980 production has started or will start.
    How on earth can you know that?
    Uhm, because Apple spends the most money, by far, and has one of the longest running exclusive relationships at TMSC, and the fact that Apple has volume production of the iPhone in process, with deliveries beginning in just a couple of weeks.

    If this wasn't the case, why would Huawei have waited to release the new phones in mid October? They could have moved heaven and earth to have these phones ready before Apple, but only if they had processors in volume before Apple does. It wouldn't even need to be a big volume, just a few millions shipped to a single market.

    I gave you a scenario where Apple ships 85 m iPhones this quarter, which will work out to about 60 million of the three new models. That will drive renege over $100B for the quarter.

    EDIT;

    I would also note that TMSC makes, unless I am in error, all of the other SoC's that Apple uses for all of the older model iPhones, for the Watch, AppleTV, AirPod's, et al, although not all of them are or need to be, at the newest node.
    So, that was the long winded version of 'you don't know at all'. Great!

    Think about it for a moment. Huawei could release it today if it wanted. No need to move heaven and earth. We're talking about a few weeks difference and there were rumours of mass Kirin 980 production as far back as April this year It could  limit the release to just one region and phase the roll out. Just like many manufacturers (including Huawei already do).

    Now think a little harder. Could it be that Huawei might just have its own plans for release and not give a damn about Apple?

    You know, like releasing the Mate 20 in exactly the same way as it released the Mate 10?
    I have given you a logical scenario, based on Apple being TMSC's preeminent and exclusive customer, and its volumes of 7nm production, as well as total production. Your retort is that Huawei "has its own plans", rather than a later access to 7nm production.

    Which scenario is most likely?

    Certainly not yours.
    Ah, now it boils down to logical scenarios.

    Here's another one for you to chew on.

    Don't you think that contractual obligations also exist between TMSC and ALL its customers????

    Or do you think there are clauses in their contracts that hold disclaimers like:

    "You will get your chips as long as we have spare capacity after fulfilling Apple's orders"

    What is logical in that? You have no reason to doubt Huawei has everything it ordered for launch, not even the infamous virus issue.

    Why? Because they haven't said ANYTHING to that effect and have announced that at least two phones (one from Honor and one from Huawei) will be shipping soon.

    Apple will beat Huawei at everything regarding 7nm chips. Apple would have finished taping out sooner, they would have placed their multi-million order sooner, they will receive those millions of chips sooner and they will be selling them in actual devices sooner. Every single step of the way Apple will be ahead of Huawei. This is simple logic. How else could Apple fulfill 10's of millions of iPhone sales (in the first month) if they were somehow behind Huawei in the production of 7nm chips? It's simply not possible.

    Yet despite being ahead of Huawei at literally everything, you want to take Huawei's "announcement" of their processor as definitive proof they they are first. Utterly pathetic, even for a troll.
    You lost me there.

    Please quote me so I have an inkling of what you are talking about. Don't put words into my mouth, just quote me.

    Better yet, I'll ask you point blank.

    Who will be the first company with 7nm processors? Apple or Huawei?
    Easy. Huawei. LOL. I saw one at IFA. It was officially presented in Berlin (Germany, not Connecticut). There was even a Huawei employee walking around with a phone that probably had one inside!

    Nothing official from Apple though.

    I bet you wished you had worded that question better!

    Now, please quote me. I would like you to tell me point blank and 'in my own words' which part is the problem part.

    You charged in yet again with your troll calling and no respect. it isn't the first time either so please provide the quote.
    Again, a prototype that is not from an actual product sold to an actual customer, does not meet any non-troll definition of being first to the market. You’re just playing stupid word games now, because your pride won’t let you concede being wrong. Your knockoff won’t be first to market. Again. That’s what happens when your heroes are chinese knockoffs. 
    Wrong on what exactly? Can you quote me and tell me where you are getting this from?
    More stupid game playing. My reply to you quoted your reply to the direct question you were asked:

    Who will be the first company with 7nm processors? Apple or Huawei?”

    ...you said some chinese knockoff because you saw one of their prototypes. To which I told you yet again (as others have before me) that protypes don’t count as being first. See kickstarter, etc for prototypes. Not products until they are old to real customers. 

    Go on, move some goalposts and get your spin going. 
    watto_cobra
  • Reply 73 of 88
    melgrossmelgross Posts: 30,850member

    avon b7 said:
    avon b7 said:
    avon b7 said:
    avon b7 said:
    tmay said:
    avon b7 said:
    tmay said:
    avon b7 said:
    tmay said:
    avon b7 said:
    avon b7 said:
    HiSilicon (Huawei) has had 7nm chips in mass production (TSMC) since around June according to many rumours. It has also been said that they have a contractual amount of orders (millions) to be fulfilled for launch phones (suspected to be three models in the short term). 

    Apple needs volume on launch because it releases one refresh every year.

    Huawei will release four flagship phones over the coming 12 months and as a result doesn't have anywhere near the pent up demand for September/October release. It will be spread out over the year and before year's end the Kirin 980 will also be in mid tier devices as well as non-handset devices.

    Quite why this report exists is a mystery as Huawei presented the Kirin 980 just last week to a world audience at IFA Berlin, live blogged and all:

    https://www.anandtech.com/show/13302/ifa-2018-huawei-kirin-980-keynote-live-blog

    They said it took three years to develop and gave the date of presentation for the first phone to use it: 16th October.

    Honor said the Magic 2 would also use it very soon. Rumours point to a December release. They wouldn't have announced that part if supply constraints were expected.

    This is the second time DigiTimes has made this type of claim (I'm basing this on AI articles). The first time was when they claimed only Apple and Samsung had the financial resources to bring 7nm to market.

    https://appleinsider.com/articles/17/12/13/apple-samsung-could-be-only-smartphone-makers-with-7nm-chips-in-2018

    blah blah Kirin blah blah Huawei blah blah 7nm blah blah

    Nobody cares about your constant Huawei shilling.

    Apple will be the THE FIRST company on the planet with 7nm chips. This is a fact. Huawei "announcing" they have the Kirin 980 means absolutely nothing. Apple will have working iPhones with the A12 7nm chip on September 12th. And they'll have 10's of millions shipping out a week later. Which means Apple would have had already received millions of A12 processors months ago. Unless you think you can fab a processor (in the millions) in only a couple days, and then get them into iPhones (by the millions) in a couple more days.

    All Huawei is trying to do is trick gullible/stupid people into thinking they were first, because Huawei knows Apple won't say anything about their A12 processor. So they can yap all they want knowing full well Apple will stay silent. Intelligent people know who's first (using INDUSTRY ACCEPTED STANDARDS). And that is Apple.

    Announcing is not shipping. The Kirin 980 is vaporware at this point. Just like last year when Huawei lied and claimed the Kirin 970 was the first processor with a neural processor (the A11 from Apple was first, and the 970 didn't ship until months later) by "announcing" it just before the iPhone came out. Do people actually fall for this crap?



    Now speaking about the 980, how come it takes Huawei years and over 1,000 engineers to build a processor that uses off-the-shelf CPU and GPU cores? And still uses the vastly inferior UFS for storage (while Apple will be on their 4th generation NVMe)? What exactly have they developed in terms of IP related to processors?

    I see you linked Anandtech, but left out the performance claims. They're stating a Geekbench single core score of 3,300 for an A76 core (as used in the 980). The A11 scores 4,200. So a year old A11 core on the older 10nm process is STILL significantly faster than an A76 core on 7nm. Doesn't seem that impressive to me. At all.
    Cores and SoCs. Two different things. SoCs and phones. Two different things.

    Vapourware? The Kirin 980 was sitting there and running at IFA 2018. It is just waiting for the phone to launch (October 16th).
    Huawei only has a small volume of Kirin 980 samples until TMSC has met its contractual obligations to Apple. Neither you nor I know if or when Kirin 980 production has started or will start.
    How on earth can you know that?
    Uhm, because Apple spends the most money, by far, and has one of the longest running exclusive relationships at TMSC, and the fact that Apple has volume production of the iPhone in process, with deliveries beginning in just a couple of weeks.

    If this wasn't the case, why would Huawei have waited to release the new phones in mid October? They could have moved heaven and earth to have these phones ready before Apple, but only if they had processors in volume before Apple does. It wouldn't even need to be a big volume, just a few millions shipped to a single market.

    I gave you a scenario where Apple ships 85 m iPhones this quarter, which will work out to about 60 million of the three new models. That will drive renege over $100B for the quarter.

    EDIT;

    I would also note that TMSC makes, unless I am in error, all of the other SoC's that Apple uses for all of the older model iPhones, for the Watch, AppleTV, AirPod's, et al, although not all of them are or need to be, at the newest node.
    So, that was the long winded version of 'you don't know at all'. Great!

    Think about it for a moment. Huawei could release it today if it wanted. No need to move heaven and earth. We're talking about a few weeks difference and there were rumours of mass Kirin 980 production as far back as April this year It could  limit the release to just one region and phase the roll out. Just like many manufacturers (including Huawei already do).

    Now think a little harder. Could it be that Huawei might just have its own plans for release and not give a damn about Apple?

    You know, like releasing the Mate 20 in exactly the same way as it released the Mate 10?
    I have given you a logical scenario, based on Apple being TMSC's preeminent and exclusive customer, and its volumes of 7nm production, as well as total production. Your retort is that Huawei "has its own plans", rather than a later access to 7nm production.

    Which scenario is most likely?

    Certainly not yours.
    Ah, now it boils down to logical scenarios.

    Here's another one for you to chew on.

    Don't you think that contractual obligations also exist between TMSC and ALL its customers????

    Or do you think there are clauses in their contracts that hold disclaimers like:

    "You will get your chips as long as we have spare capacity after fulfilling Apple's orders"

    What is logical in that? You have no reason to doubt Huawei has everything it ordered for launch, not even the infamous virus issue.

    Why? Because they haven't said ANYTHING to that effect and have announced that at least two phones (one from Honor and one from Huawei) will be shipping soon.

    Apple will beat Huawei at everything regarding 7nm chips. Apple would have finished taping out sooner, they would have placed their multi-million order sooner, they will receive those millions of chips sooner and they will be selling them in actual devices sooner. Every single step of the way Apple will be ahead of Huawei. This is simple logic. How else could Apple fulfill 10's of millions of iPhone sales (in the first month) if they were somehow behind Huawei in the production of 7nm chips? It's simply not possible.

    Yet despite being ahead of Huawei at literally everything, you want to take Huawei's "announcement" of their processor as definitive proof they they are first. Utterly pathetic, even for a troll.
    You lost me there.

    Please quote me so I have an inkling of what you are talking about. Don't put words into my mouth, just quote me.

    Better yet, I'll ask you point blank.

    Who will be the first company with 7nm processors? Apple or Huawei?
    Easy. Huawei. LOL. I saw one at IFA. It was officially presented in Berlin (Germany, not Connecticut). There was even a Huawei employee walking around with a phone that probably had one inside!

    Nothing official from Apple though.

    I bet you wished you had worded that question better!

    Now, please quote me. I would like you to tell me point blank and 'in my own words' which part is the problem part.

    You charged in yet again with your troll calling and no respect. it isn't the first time either so please provide the quote.
    Again, a prototype that is not from an actual product sold to an actual customer, does not meet any non-troll definition of being first to the market. You’re just playing stupid word games now, because your pride won’t let you concede being wrong. Your knockoff won’t be first to market. Again. That’s what happens when your heroes are chinese knockoffs. 
    Wrong on what exactly? Can you quote me and tell me where you are getting this from?
    He’s right though. Look, we all know, and that includes you, that Apple will have the first 7nm SoC in a real, shipping product, and we all know, including you, that what first means in this context, by everyone, including those in the industry, is the first shipping product containing the part. Nothing else matters, and you know that too. So unless you’re just having fun trying to lead us on, having us think that you’re serious in all this, it’s time for you to stop this nonsense.
    muthuk_vanalingamwatto_cobra
  • Reply 74 of 88
    SoliSoli Posts: 8,172member
    melgross said:
    Soli said:
    melgross said:
    avon b7 said:
    Where do you get the idea that I lecture absolutely anybody? I give my opinion and defend it. That's it.

    If we're talking about opinions, there is no right one or wrong one.

    Facts are always right, which is why they’re called facts. There is no such thing as a wrong fact. If someone posts something that they claim is a fact, and it’s wrong, then it’s not a fact.
    True, but facts one day can become un-factual another.. There's even statistical data that measures the half-life of facts.

    It depends on what you mean. If it’s something that not really a fact, such as the fact that the earth orbits the sun, but rather something that’s guessed at, then it was never a fact.
    That's a great example because one day Earth will no longer orbit the sun if you believe that entropy is a fact.

    Another example with astronomy is the fact that Pluto was a planet and now it's not classified as such, it's now classified as a dwarf planet. These sort of things happen as we alter definitions and even language itself (which tends cause a lot of frustration for older people due to all our biases on the way things should be) but it's still requiring a change. Science books get updated for such reasons all the time, not because there was a calculation error.

    Another example would be a statement like "Pluto is the furthest object in our solar system that you/we know about." At one point that was absolutely true and then it wasn't.

    Using astronomy again, more general example of facts that have become false in your lifetime would be statements like "Pluto is the 9th planet" with a focus on its cardinal number in this statement when you think about all objects like moons and asteroids that were deemed planets until we knew better.

    Now, if you take the word planet back to its Greek origins is translate to wanderer so if they are calling objects that appear to wander compared to the backdrop of all stars there would be nothing wrong with calling those objects planētēs.

    We say that Italian astronomer Giuseppe Piazzi discovered Ceres, the largest asteroid in the asteroid belt, in 1801, and chances are that won't ever change because we don't have data to say otherwise but maybe he stole the discovery from someone else, someone we don't know about didn't let that part of the civilized world know.

    I mention Ceres because it was a planet, then an asteroid, and now it's a dwarf planet with about 1/4 the mass of our moon but enough mass to compress into a hydrostatically equilibrious shape.

    Finally, I bet you would call the Earth a planet (I would), yet if we go back to the Greek origin of the term they wouldn't have called Earth a wanderer and probably couldn't conceive of Earth in that way because Copernican heliocentrism wasn't a published model until 1543.


    Note: The information in this post is destine to change but you should be able to verify everything I've stated in this post as factual at this time.
    edited September 4
  • Reply 75 of 88
    avon b7avon b7 Posts: 2,602member
    melgross said:
    avon b7 said:
    avon b7 said:
    avon b7 said:
    tmay said:
    avon b7 said:
    tmay said:
    avon b7 said:
    tmay said:
    avon b7 said:
    avon b7 said:
    HiSilicon (Huawei) has had 7nm chips in mass production (TSMC) since around June according to many rumours. It has also been said that they have a contractual amount of orders (millions) to be fulfilled for launch phones (suspected to be three models in the short term). 

    Apple needs volume on launch because it releases one refresh every year.

    Huawei will release four flagship phones over the coming 12 months and as a result doesn't have anywhere near the pent up demand for September/October release. It will be spread out over the year and before year's end the Kirin 980 will also be in mid tier devices as well as non-handset devices.

    Quite why this report exists is a mystery as Huawei presented the Kirin 980 just last week to a world audience at IFA Berlin, live blogged and all:

    https://www.anandtech.com/show/13302/ifa-2018-huawei-kirin-980-keynote-live-blog

    They said it took three years to develop and gave the date of presentation for the first phone to use it: 16th October.

    Honor said the Magic 2 would also use it very soon. Rumours point to a December release. They wouldn't have announced that part if supply constraints were expected.

    This is the second time DigiTimes has made this type of claim (I'm basing this on AI articles). The first time was when they claimed only Apple and Samsung had the financial resources to bring 7nm to market.

    https://appleinsider.com/articles/17/12/13/apple-samsung-could-be-only-smartphone-makers-with-7nm-chips-in-2018

    blah blah Kirin blah blah Huawei blah blah 7nm blah blah

    Nobody cares about your constant Huawei shilling.

    Apple will be the THE FIRST company on the planet with 7nm chips. This is a fact. Huawei "announcing" they have the Kirin 980 means absolutely nothing. Apple will have working iPhones with the A12 7nm chip on September 12th. And they'll have 10's of millions shipping out a week later. Which means Apple would have had already received millions of A12 processors months ago. Unless you think you can fab a processor (in the millions) in only a couple days, and then get them into iPhones (by the millions) in a couple more days.

    All Huawei is trying to do is trick gullible/stupid people into thinking they were first, because Huawei knows Apple won't say anything about their A12 processor. So they can yap all they want knowing full well Apple will stay silent. Intelligent people know who's first (using INDUSTRY ACCEPTED STANDARDS). And that is Apple.

    Announcing is not shipping. The Kirin 980 is vaporware at this point. Just like last year when Huawei lied and claimed the Kirin 970 was the first processor with a neural processor (the A11 from Apple was first, and the 970 didn't ship until months later) by "announcing" it just before the iPhone came out. Do people actually fall for this crap?



    Now speaking about the 980, how come it takes Huawei years and over 1,000 engineers to build a processor that uses off-the-shelf CPU and GPU cores? And still uses the vastly inferior UFS for storage (while Apple will be on their 4th generation NVMe)? What exactly have they developed in terms of IP related to processors?

    I see you linked Anandtech, but left out the performance claims. They're stating a Geekbench single core score of 3,300 for an A76 core (as used in the 980). The A11 scores 4,200. So a year old A11 core on the older 10nm process is STILL significantly faster than an A76 core on 7nm. Doesn't seem that impressive to me. At all.
    Cores and SoCs. Two different things. SoCs and phones. Two different things.

    Vapourware? The Kirin 980 was sitting there and running at IFA 2018. It is just waiting for the phone to launch (October 16th).
    Huawei only has a small volume of Kirin 980 samples until TMSC has met its contractual obligations to Apple. Neither you nor I know if or when Kirin 980 production has started or will start.
    How on earth can you know that?
    Uhm, because Apple spends the most money, by far, and has one of the longest running exclusive relationships at TMSC, and the fact that Apple has volume production of the iPhone in process, with deliveries beginning in just a couple of weeks.

    If this wasn't the case, why would Huawei have waited to release the new phones in mid October? They could have moved heaven and earth to have these phones ready before Apple, but only if they had processors in volume before Apple does. It wouldn't even need to be a big volume, just a few millions shipped to a single market.

    I gave you a scenario where Apple ships 85 m iPhones this quarter, which will work out to about 60 million of the three new models. That will drive renege over $100B for the quarter.

    EDIT;

    I would also note that TMSC makes, unless I am in error, all of the other SoC's that Apple uses for all of the older model iPhones, for the Watch, AppleTV, AirPod's, et al, although not all of them are or need to be, at the newest node.
    So, that was the long winded version of 'you don't know at all'. Great!

    Think about it for a moment. Huawei could release it today if it wanted. No need to move heaven and earth. We're talking about a few weeks difference and there were rumours of mass Kirin 980 production as far back as April this year It could  limit the release to just one region and phase the roll out. Just like many manufacturers (including Huawei already do).

    Now think a little harder. Could it be that Huawei might just have its own plans for release and not give a damn about Apple?

    You know, like releasing the Mate 20 in exactly the same way as it released the Mate 10?
    I have given you a logical scenario, based on Apple being TMSC's preeminent and exclusive customer, and its volumes of 7nm production, as well as total production. Your retort is that Huawei "has its own plans", rather than a later access to 7nm production.

    Which scenario is most likely?

    Certainly not yours.
    Ah, now it boils down to logical scenarios.

    Here's another one for you to chew on.

    Don't you think that contractual obligations also exist between TMSC and ALL its customers????

    Or do you think there are clauses in their contracts that hold disclaimers like:

    "You will get your chips as long as we have spare capacity after fulfilling Apple's orders"

    What is logical in that? You have no reason to doubt Huawei has everything it ordered for launch, not even the infamous virus issue.

    Why? Because they haven't said ANYTHING to that effect and have announced that at least two phones (one from Honor and one from Huawei) will be shipping soon.

    Apple will beat Huawei at everything regarding 7nm chips. Apple would have finished taping out sooner, they would have placed their multi-million order sooner, they will receive those millions of chips sooner and they will be selling them in actual devices sooner. Every single step of the way Apple will be ahead of Huawei. This is simple logic. How else could Apple fulfill 10's of millions of iPhone sales (in the first month) if they were somehow behind Huawei in the production of 7nm chips? It's simply not possible.

    Yet despite being ahead of Huawei at literally everything, you want to take Huawei's "announcement" of their processor as definitive proof they they are first. Utterly pathetic, even for a troll.
    You lost me there.

    Please quote me so I have an inkling of what you are talking about. Don't put words into my mouth, just quote me.

    Better yet, I'll ask you point blank.

    Who will be the first company with 7nm processors? Apple or Huawei?
    Easy. Huawei. LOL. I saw one at IFA. It was officially presented in Berlin (Germany, not Connecticut). There was even a Huawei employee walking around with a phone that probably had one inside!

    Nothing official from Apple though.

    I bet you wished you had worded that question better!

    Now, please quote me. I would like you to tell me point blank and 'in my own words' which part is the problem part.

    You charged in yet again with your troll calling and no respect. it isn't the first time either so please provide the quote.
    Sorry, but no. That’s meaningless, and you know it.
    Ah, yes. Of course I know it.

    Someone is ranting on what I said and not even bothering in the slightest to attempt to see that I was responding to the contents of the article sitting at the top of this thread.

    What I wrote was 100% correct on the factual statement and supported with common sense information elsewhere.

    Only to have someone charge in and rant with his 'bla, bla, bla, troll, shill...' discourse.

    Well, he couldn't quote me on anything. No surprise there so at the end of the day he lost credibility. Not that he had much in the first place after his initial rant and name calling.

    I am respectful of everybody, no matter their opinion. We can argue all day about some things some of the time but then be in complete agreement on something else until the cows come home. We can be firm in the defence of our opinions but always respecting not only the opinions of others but them as people too.

    But if someone persistently shows a lack of respect and makes personal claims that are unfounded, then they open themselves to being called out on it.
  • Reply 76 of 88
    tmay said:
    avon b7 said:
    avon b7 said:
    HiSilicon (Huawei) has had 7nm chips in mass production (TSMC) since around June according to many rumours. It has also been said that they have a contractual amount of orders (millions) to be fulfilled for launch phones (suspected to be three models in the short term). 

    Apple needs volume on launch because it releases one refresh every year.

    Huawei will release four flagship phones over the coming 12 months and as a result doesn't have anywhere near the pent up demand for September/October release. It will be spread out over the year and before year's end the Kirin 980 will also be in mid tier devices as well as non-handset devices.

    Quite why this report exists is a mystery as Huawei presented the Kirin 980 just last week to a world audience at IFA Berlin, live blogged and all:

    https://www.anandtech.com/show/13302/ifa-2018-huawei-kirin-980-keynote-live-blog

    They said it took three years to develop and gave the date of presentation for the first phone to use it: 16th October.

    Honor said the Magic 2 would also use it very soon. Rumours point to a December release. They wouldn't have announced that part if supply constraints were expected.

    This is the second time DigiTimes has made this type of claim (I'm basing this on AI articles). The first time was when they claimed only Apple and Samsung had the financial resources to bring 7nm to market.

    https://appleinsider.com/articles/17/12/13/apple-samsung-could-be-only-smartphone-makers-with-7nm-chips-in-2018

    blah blah Kirin blah blah Huawei blah blah 7nm blah blah

    Nobody cares about your constant Huawei shilling.

    Apple will be the THE FIRST company on the planet with 7nm chips. This is a fact. Huawei "announcing" they have the Kirin 980 means absolutely nothing. Apple will have working iPhones with the A12 7nm chip on September 12th. And they'll have 10's of millions shipping out a week later. Which means Apple would have had already received millions of A12 processors months ago. Unless you think you can fab a processor (in the millions) in only a couple days, and then get them into iPhones (by the millions) in a couple more days.

    All Huawei is trying to do is trick gullible/stupid people into thinking they were first, because Huawei knows Apple won't say anything about their A12 processor. So they can yap all they want knowing full well Apple will stay silent. Intelligent people know who's first (using INDUSTRY ACCEPTED STANDARDS). And that is Apple.

    Announcing is not shipping. The Kirin 980 is vaporware at this point. Just like last year when Huawei lied and claimed the Kirin 970 was the first processor with a neural processor (the A11 from Apple was first, and the 970 didn't ship until months later) by "announcing" it just before the iPhone came out. Do people actually fall for this crap?



    Now speaking about the 980, how come it takes Huawei years and over 1,000 engineers to build a processor that uses off-the-shelf CPU and GPU cores? And still uses the vastly inferior UFS for storage (while Apple will be on their 4th generation NVMe)? What exactly have they developed in terms of IP related to processors?

    I see you linked Anandtech, but left out the performance claims. They're stating a Geekbench single core score of 3,300 for an A76 core (as used in the 980). The A11 scores 4,200. So a year old A11 core on the older 10nm process is STILL significantly faster than an A76 core on 7nm. Doesn't seem that impressive to me. At all.
    Cores and SoCs. Two different things. SoCs and phones. Two different things.

    Vapourware? The Kirin 980 was sitting there and running at IFA 2018. It is just waiting for the phone to launch (October 16th).
    Huawei only has a small volume of Kirin 980 samples until TMSC has met its contractual obligations to Apple. Neither you nor I know if or when Kirin 980 production has started or will start.
    You're kidding right? None of us know if the Kirin 980 production will actually start, this is your best argument on the subject.  You know what, there is no point arguing with Apple people, you're all still running around telling people how Apple was the first company to ever trade above a $1 trillion market cap, yet it's not true.  The first company to ever trade with a $1 trillion market cap was PetroChina back in 2007, it wasn't for very long, but it was valued at over $1 trillion on the first day of trade ($1.4T in actual fact was its peak). So remember, you have to say Apple was the first company to ever be worth more than $1 trillion* 

    *first US company
  • Reply 77 of 88
    avon b7 said:
    avon b7 said:
    avon b7 said:
    tmay said:
    avon b7 said:
    tmay said:
    avon b7 said:
    tmay said:
    avon b7 said:
    avon b7 said:
    HiSilicon (Huawei) has had 7nm chips in mass production (TSMC) since around June according to many rumours. It has also been said that they have a contractual amount of orders (millions) to be fulfilled for launch phones (suspected to be three models in the short term). 

    Apple needs volume on launch because it releases one refresh every year.

    Huawei will release four flagship phones over the coming 12 months and as a result doesn't have anywhere near the pent up demand for September/October release. It will be spread out over the year and before year's end the Kirin 980 will also be in mid tier devices as well as non-handset devices.

    Quite why this report exists is a mystery as Huawei presented the Kirin 980 just last week to a world audience at IFA Berlin, live blogged and all:

    https://www.anandtech.com/show/13302/ifa-2018-huawei-kirin-980-keynote-live-blog

    They said it took three years to develop and gave the date of presentation for the first phone to use it: 16th October.

    Honor said the Magic 2 would also use it very soon. Rumours point to a December release. They wouldn't have announced that part if supply constraints were expected.

    This is the second time DigiTimes has made this type of claim (I'm basing this on AI articles). The first time was when they claimed only Apple and Samsung had the financial resources to bring 7nm to market.

    https://appleinsider.com/articles/17/12/13/apple-samsung-could-be-only-smartphone-makers-with-7nm-chips-in-2018

    blah blah Kirin blah blah Huawei blah blah 7nm blah blah

    Nobody cares about your constant Huawei shilling.

    Apple will be the THE FIRST company on the planet with 7nm chips. This is a fact. Huawei "announcing" they have the Kirin 980 means absolutely nothing. Apple will have working iPhones with the A12 7nm chip on September 12th. And they'll have 10's of millions shipping out a week later. Which means Apple would have had already received millions of A12 processors months ago. Unless you think you can fab a processor (in the millions) in only a couple days, and then get them into iPhones (by the millions) in a couple more days.

    All Huawei is trying to do is trick gullible/stupid people into thinking they were first, because Huawei knows Apple won't say anything about their A12 processor. So they can yap all they want knowing full well Apple will stay silent. Intelligent people know who's first (using INDUSTRY ACCEPTED STANDARDS). And that is Apple.

    Announcing is not shipping. The Kirin 980 is vaporware at this point. Just like last year when Huawei lied and claimed the Kirin 970 was the first processor with a neural processor (the A11 from Apple was first, and the 970 didn't ship until months later) by "announcing" it just before the iPhone came out. Do people actually fall for this crap?



    Now speaking about the 980, how come it takes Huawei years and over 1,000 engineers to build a processor that uses off-the-shelf CPU and GPU cores? And still uses the vastly inferior UFS for storage (while Apple will be on their 4th generation NVMe)? What exactly have they developed in terms of IP related to processors?

    I see you linked Anandtech, but left out the performance claims. They're stating a Geekbench single core score of 3,300 for an A76 core (as used in the 980). The A11 scores 4,200. So a year old A11 core on the older 10nm process is STILL significantly faster than an A76 core on 7nm. Doesn't seem that impressive to me. At all.
    Cores and SoCs. Two different things. SoCs and phones. Two different things.

    Vapourware? The Kirin 980 was sitting there and running at IFA 2018. It is just waiting for the phone to launch (October 16th).
    Huawei only has a small volume of Kirin 980 samples until TMSC has met its contractual obligations to Apple. Neither you nor I know if or when Kirin 980 production has started or will start.
    How on earth can you know that?
    Uhm, because Apple spends the most money, by far, and has one of the longest running exclusive relationships at TMSC, and the fact that Apple has volume production of the iPhone in process, with deliveries beginning in just a couple of weeks.

    If this wasn't the case, why would Huawei have waited to release the new phones in mid October? They could have moved heaven and earth to have these phones ready before Apple, but only if they had processors in volume before Apple does. It wouldn't even need to be a big volume, just a few millions shipped to a single market.

    I gave you a scenario where Apple ships 85 m iPhones this quarter, which will work out to about 60 million of the three new models. That will drive renege over $100B for the quarter.

    EDIT;

    I would also note that TMSC makes, unless I am in error, all of the other SoC's that Apple uses for all of the older model iPhones, for the Watch, AppleTV, AirPod's, et al, although not all of them are or need to be, at the newest node.
    So, that was the long winded version of 'you don't know at all'. Great!

    Think about it for a moment. Huawei could release it today if it wanted. No need to move heaven and earth. We're talking about a few weeks difference and there were rumours of mass Kirin 980 production as far back as April this year It could  limit the release to just one region and phase the roll out. Just like many manufacturers (including Huawei already do).

    Now think a little harder. Could it be that Huawei might just have its own plans for release and not give a damn about Apple?

    You know, like releasing the Mate 20 in exactly the same way as it released the Mate 10?
    I have given you a logical scenario, based on Apple being TMSC's preeminent and exclusive customer, and its volumes of 7nm production, as well as total production. Your retort is that Huawei "has its own plans", rather than a later access to 7nm production.

    Which scenario is most likely?

    Certainly not yours.
    Ah, now it boils down to logical scenarios.

    Here's another one for you to chew on.

    Don't you think that contractual obligations also exist between TMSC and ALL its customers????

    Or do you think there are clauses in their contracts that hold disclaimers like:

    "You will get your chips as long as we have spare capacity after fulfilling Apple's orders"

    What is logical in that? You have no reason to doubt Huawei has everything it ordered for launch, not even the infamous virus issue.

    Why? Because they haven't said ANYTHING to that effect and have announced that at least two phones (one from Honor and one from Huawei) will be shipping soon.

    Apple will beat Huawei at everything regarding 7nm chips. Apple would have finished taping out sooner, they would have placed their multi-million order sooner, they will receive those millions of chips sooner and they will be selling them in actual devices sooner. Every single step of the way Apple will be ahead of Huawei. This is simple logic. How else could Apple fulfill 10's of millions of iPhone sales (in the first month) if they were somehow behind Huawei in the production of 7nm chips? It's simply not possible.

    Yet despite being ahead of Huawei at literally everything, you want to take Huawei's "announcement" of their processor as definitive proof they they are first. Utterly pathetic, even for a troll.
    You lost me there.

    Please quote me so I have an inkling of what you are talking about. Don't put words into my mouth, just quote me.

    Better yet, I'll ask you point blank.

    Who will be the first company with 7nm processors? Apple or Huawei?
    Easy. Huawei. LOL. I saw one at IFA. It was officially presented in Berlin (Germany, not Connecticut). There was even a Huawei employee walking around with a phone that probably had one inside!

    Nothing official from Apple though.

    I bet you wished you had worded that question better!

    Now, please quote me. I would like you to tell me point blank and 'in my own words' which part is the problem part.

    You charged in yet again with your troll calling and no respect. it isn't the first time either so please provide the quote.
    Again, a prototype that is not from an actual product sold to an actual customer, does not meet any non-troll definition of being first to the market. You’re just playing stupid word games now, because your pride won’t let you concede being wrong. Your knockoff won’t be first to market. Again. That’s what happens when your heroes are chinese knockoffs. 
    My hero knockoff is a company called PetroChina, it traded above $1 trillion back in Nov 2007 which makes it the first company to ever be worth more than $1 trillion and a full 10 years before Apple. 
  • Reply 78 of 88
    SoliSoli Posts: 8,172member
    Alexaqua said:
    avon b7 said:
    avon b7 said:
    avon b7 said:
    tmay said:
    avon b7 said:
    tmay said:
    avon b7 said:
    tmay said:
    avon b7 said:
    avon b7 said:
    HiSilicon (Huawei) has had 7nm chips in mass production (TSMC) since around June according to many rumours. It has also been said that they have a contractual amount of orders (millions) to be fulfilled for launch phones (suspected to be three models in the short term). 

    Apple needs volume on launch because it releases one refresh every year.

    Huawei will release four flagship phones over the coming 12 months and as a result doesn't have anywhere near the pent up demand for September/October release. It will be spread out over the year and before year's end the Kirin 980 will also be in mid tier devices as well as non-handset devices.

    Quite why this report exists is a mystery as Huawei presented the Kirin 980 just last week to a world audience at IFA Berlin, live blogged and all:

    https://www.anandtech.com/show/13302/ifa-2018-huawei-kirin-980-keynote-live-blog

    They said it took three years to develop and gave the date of presentation for the first phone to use it: 16th October.

    Honor said the Magic 2 would also use it very soon. Rumours point to a December release. They wouldn't have announced that part if supply constraints were expected.

    This is the second time DigiTimes has made this type of claim (I'm basing this on AI articles). The first time was when they claimed only Apple and Samsung had the financial resources to bring 7nm to market.

    https://appleinsider.com/articles/17/12/13/apple-samsung-could-be-only-smartphone-makers-with-7nm-chips-in-2018

    blah blah Kirin blah blah Huawei blah blah 7nm blah blah

    Nobody cares about your constant Huawei shilling.

    Apple will be the THE FIRST company on the planet with 7nm chips. This is a fact. Huawei "announcing" they have the Kirin 980 means absolutely nothing. Apple will have working iPhones with the A12 7nm chip on September 12th. And they'll have 10's of millions shipping out a week later. Which means Apple would have had already received millions of A12 processors months ago. Unless you think you can fab a processor (in the millions) in only a couple days, and then get them into iPhones (by the millions) in a couple more days.

    All Huawei is trying to do is trick gullible/stupid people into thinking they were first, because Huawei knows Apple won't say anything about their A12 processor. So they can yap all they want knowing full well Apple will stay silent. Intelligent people know who's first (using INDUSTRY ACCEPTED STANDARDS). And that is Apple.

    Announcing is not shipping. The Kirin 980 is vaporware at this point. Just like last year when Huawei lied and claimed the Kirin 970 was the first processor with a neural processor (the A11 from Apple was first, and the 970 didn't ship until months later) by "announcing" it just before the iPhone came out. Do people actually fall for this crap?



    Now speaking about the 980, how come it takes Huawei years and over 1,000 engineers to build a processor that uses off-the-shelf CPU and GPU cores? And still uses the vastly inferior UFS for storage (while Apple will be on their 4th generation NVMe)? What exactly have they developed in terms of IP related to processors?

    I see you linked Anandtech, but left out the performance claims. They're stating a Geekbench single core score of 3,300 for an A76 core (as used in the 980). The A11 scores 4,200. So a year old A11 core on the older 10nm process is STILL significantly faster than an A76 core on 7nm. Doesn't seem that impressive to me. At all.
    Cores and SoCs. Two different things. SoCs and phones. Two different things.

    Vapourware? The Kirin 980 was sitting there and running at IFA 2018. It is just waiting for the phone to launch (October 16th).
    Huawei only has a small volume of Kirin 980 samples until TMSC has met its contractual obligations to Apple. Neither you nor I know if or when Kirin 980 production has started or will start.
    How on earth can you know that?
    Uhm, because Apple spends the most money, by far, and has one of the longest running exclusive relationships at TMSC, and the fact that Apple has volume production of the iPhone in process, with deliveries beginning in just a couple of weeks.

    If this wasn't the case, why would Huawei have waited to release the new phones in mid October? They could have moved heaven and earth to have these phones ready before Apple, but only if they had processors in volume before Apple does. It wouldn't even need to be a big volume, just a few millions shipped to a single market.

    I gave you a scenario where Apple ships 85 m iPhones this quarter, which will work out to about 60 million of the three new models. That will drive renege over $100B for the quarter.

    EDIT;

    I would also note that TMSC makes, unless I am in error, all of the other SoC's that Apple uses for all of the older model iPhones, for the Watch, AppleTV, AirPod's, et al, although not all of them are or need to be, at the newest node.
    So, that was the long winded version of 'you don't know at all'. Great!

    Think about it for a moment. Huawei could release it today if it wanted. No need to move heaven and earth. We're talking about a few weeks difference and there were rumours of mass Kirin 980 production as far back as April this year It could  limit the release to just one region and phase the roll out. Just like many manufacturers (including Huawei already do).

    Now think a little harder. Could it be that Huawei might just have its own plans for release and not give a damn about Apple?

    You know, like releasing the Mate 20 in exactly the same way as it released the Mate 10?
    I have given you a logical scenario, based on Apple being TMSC's preeminent and exclusive customer, and its volumes of 7nm production, as well as total production. Your retort is that Huawei "has its own plans", rather than a later access to 7nm production.

    Which scenario is most likely?

    Certainly not yours.
    Ah, now it boils down to logical scenarios.

    Here's another one for you to chew on.

    Don't you think that contractual obligations also exist between TMSC and ALL its customers????

    Or do you think there are clauses in their contracts that hold disclaimers like:

    "You will get your chips as long as we have spare capacity after fulfilling Apple's orders"

    What is logical in that? You have no reason to doubt Huawei has everything it ordered for launch, not even the infamous virus issue.

    Why? Because they haven't said ANYTHING to that effect and have announced that at least two phones (one from Honor and one from Huawei) will be shipping soon.

    Apple will beat Huawei at everything regarding 7nm chips. Apple would have finished taping out sooner, they would have placed their multi-million order sooner, they will receive those millions of chips sooner and they will be selling them in actual devices sooner. Every single step of the way Apple will be ahead of Huawei. This is simple logic. How else could Apple fulfill 10's of millions of iPhone sales (in the first month) if they were somehow behind Huawei in the production of 7nm chips? It's simply not possible.

    Yet despite being ahead of Huawei at literally everything, you want to take Huawei's "announcement" of their processor as definitive proof they they are first. Utterly pathetic, even for a troll.
    You lost me there.

    Please quote me so I have an inkling of what you are talking about. Don't put words into my mouth, just quote me.

    Better yet, I'll ask you point blank.

    Who will be the first company with 7nm processors? Apple or Huawei?
    Easy. Huawei. LOL. I saw one at IFA. It was officially presented in Berlin (Germany, not Connecticut). There was even a Huawei employee walking around with a phone that probably had one inside!

    Nothing official from Apple though.

    I bet you wished you had worded that question better!

    Now, please quote me. I would like you to tell me point blank and 'in my own words' which part is the problem part.

    You charged in yet again with your troll calling and no respect. it isn't the first time either so please provide the quote.
    Again, a prototype that is not from an actual product sold to an actual customer, does not meet any non-troll definition of being first to the market. You’re just playing stupid word games now, because your pride won’t let you concede being wrong. Your knockoff won’t be first to market. Again. That’s what happens when your heroes are chinese knockoffs. 
    My hero knockoff is a company called PetroChina, it traded above $1 trillion back in Nov 2007 which makes it the first company to ever be worth more than $1 trillion and a full 10 years before Apple. 
    1) You literally just wrote that in the preceding comment.

    2) We all know this. This is common knowledge around here, but you fail to note that they not only didn't close at $1T but have never even came close again. You can find posts from longterm members on this forum saying that an interday blip doesn't count for AAPL; that it has to close over $1T. Even then, if Apple had reached it, closed at 1.00001T, and then fell drastically and never achieved it again then myself and countless others here would have an asterisk next to Apple's name (just like Petro China) if we had referenced it as being a trillion dollar company.

    3) To use any short term blip and then try expanding that is like saying you can run faster than Usain bolt in the 100M by averaging your speed over the fastest time in the shortest distance possible. Do you really think that makes sense? I don't.
    edited September 5 muthuk_vanalingam
  • Reply 79 of 88
    melgrossmelgross Posts: 30,850member
    Alexaqua said:
    tmay said:
    avon b7 said:
    avon b7 said:
    HiSilicon (Huawei) has had 7nm chips in mass production (TSMC) since around June according to many rumours. It has also been said that they have a contractual amount of orders (millions) to be fulfilled for launch phones (suspected to be three models in the short term). 

    Apple needs volume on launch because it releases one refresh every year.

    Huawei will release four flagship phones over the coming 12 months and as a result doesn't have anywhere near the pent up demand for September/October release. It will be spread out over the year and before year's end the Kirin 980 will also be in mid tier devices as well as non-handset devices.

    Quite why this report exists is a mystery as Huawei presented the Kirin 980 just last week to a world audience at IFA Berlin, live blogged and all:

    https://www.anandtech.com/show/13302/ifa-2018-huawei-kirin-980-keynote-live-blog

    They said it took three years to develop and gave the date of presentation for the first phone to use it: 16th October.

    Honor said the Magic 2 would also use it very soon. Rumours point to a December release. They wouldn't have announced that part if supply constraints were expected.

    This is the second time DigiTimes has made this type of claim (I'm basing this on AI articles). The first time was when they claimed only Apple and Samsung had the financial resources to bring 7nm to market.

    https://appleinsider.com/articles/17/12/13/apple-samsung-could-be-only-smartphone-makers-with-7nm-chips-in-2018

    blah blah Kirin blah blah Huawei blah blah 7nm blah blah

    Nobody cares about your constant Huawei shilling.

    Apple will be the THE FIRST company on the planet with 7nm chips. This is a fact. Huawei "announcing" they have the Kirin 980 means absolutely nothing. Apple will have working iPhones with the A12 7nm chip on September 12th. And they'll have 10's of millions shipping out a week later. Which means Apple would have had already received millions of A12 processors months ago. Unless you think you can fab a processor (in the millions) in only a couple days, and then get them into iPhones (by the millions) in a couple more days.

    All Huawei is trying to do is trick gullible/stupid people into thinking they were first, because Huawei knows Apple won't say anything about their A12 processor. So they can yap all they want knowing full well Apple will stay silent. Intelligent people know who's first (using INDUSTRY ACCEPTED STANDARDS). And that is Apple.

    Announcing is not shipping. The Kirin 980 is vaporware at this point. Just like last year when Huawei lied and claimed the Kirin 970 was the first processor with a neural processor (the A11 from Apple was first, and the 970 didn't ship until months later) by "announcing" it just before the iPhone came out. Do people actually fall for this crap?



    Now speaking about the 980, how come it takes Huawei years and over 1,000 engineers to build a processor that uses off-the-shelf CPU and GPU cores? And still uses the vastly inferior UFS for storage (while Apple will be on their 4th generation NVMe)? What exactly have they developed in terms of IP related to processors?

    I see you linked Anandtech, but left out the performance claims. They're stating a Geekbench single core score of 3,300 for an A76 core (as used in the 980). The A11 scores 4,200. So a year old A11 core on the older 10nm process is STILL significantly faster than an A76 core on 7nm. Doesn't seem that impressive to me. At all.
    Cores and SoCs. Two different things. SoCs and phones. Two different things.

    Vapourware? The Kirin 980 was sitting there and running at IFA 2018. It is just waiting for the phone to launch (October 16th).
    Huawei only has a small volume of Kirin 980 samples until TMSC has met its contractual obligations to Apple. Neither you nor I know if or when Kirin 980 production has started or will start.
    You're kidding right? None of us know if the Kirin 980 production will actually start, this is your best argument on the subject.  You know what, there is no point arguing with Apple people, you're all still running around telling people how Apple was the first company to ever trade above a $1 trillion market cap, yet it's not true.  The first company to ever trade with a $1 trillion market cap was PetroChina back in 2007, it wasn't for very long, but it was valued at over $1 trillion on the first day of trade ($1.4T in actual fact was its peak). So remember, you have to say Apple was the first company to ever be worth more than $1 trillion* 

    *first US company
    Apple is the first American company to be worth a trillion. The Petrochina IPO was a debacle, because it was manipulated by the Chinese government, which has manipulated their market a number of times, and controls, very tightly, how trading is done. The problem for them was that this issue was so big, that they couldn’t control what happened after the IPO came out, and so it collapsed. petrochina is worth, even accounting for inflation, about 20% of what it was for that very short time.

    this is why sometimes it’s mentioned, in financial articles, but more often, not. That includes the most respected financial journals around. It was an embarrassment for the Chinese government, who last made major manipulation of their market not all that long ago - again. It didn’t work then, and it doesn’t work now.

    so all of you proclaiming how great that was, just forget it, it wasn’t all that real.
    edited September 5
  • Reply 80 of 88
    tmaytmay Posts: 2,994member
    Alexaqua said:
    tmay said:
    avon b7 said:
    avon b7 said:
    HiSilicon (Huawei) has had 7nm chips in mass production (TSMC) since around June according to many rumours. It has also been said that they have a contractual amount of orders (millions) to be fulfilled for launch phones (suspected to be three models in the short term). 

    Apple needs volume on launch because it releases one refresh every year.

    Huawei will release four flagship phones over the coming 12 months and as a result doesn't have anywhere near the pent up demand for September/October release. It will be spread out over the year and before year's end the Kirin 980 will also be in mid tier devices as well as non-handset devices.

    Quite why this report exists is a mystery as Huawei presented the Kirin 980 just last week to a world audience at IFA Berlin, live blogged and all:

    https://www.anandtech.com/show/13302/ifa-2018-huawei-kirin-980-keynote-live-blog

    They said it took three years to develop and gave the date of presentation for the first phone to use it: 16th October.

    Honor said the Magic 2 would also use it very soon. Rumours point to a December release. They wouldn't have announced that part if supply constraints were expected.

    This is the second time DigiTimes has made this type of claim (I'm basing this on AI articles). The first time was when they claimed only Apple and Samsung had the financial resources to bring 7nm to market.

    https://appleinsider.com/articles/17/12/13/apple-samsung-could-be-only-smartphone-makers-with-7nm-chips-in-2018

    blah blah Kirin blah blah Huawei blah blah 7nm blah blah

    Nobody cares about your constant Huawei shilling.

    Apple will be the THE FIRST company on the planet with 7nm chips. This is a fact. Huawei "announcing" they have the Kirin 980 means absolutely nothing. Apple will have working iPhones with the A12 7nm chip on September 12th. And they'll have 10's of millions shipping out a week later. Which means Apple would have had already received millions of A12 processors months ago. Unless you think you can fab a processor (in the millions) in only a couple days, and then get them into iPhones (by the millions) in a couple more days.

    All Huawei is trying to do is trick gullible/stupid people into thinking they were first, because Huawei knows Apple won't say anything about their A12 processor. So they can yap all they want knowing full well Apple will stay silent. Intelligent people know who's first (using INDUSTRY ACCEPTED STANDARDS). And that is Apple.

    Announcing is not shipping. The Kirin 980 is vaporware at this point. Just like last year when Huawei lied and claimed the Kirin 970 was the first processor with a neural processor (the A11 from Apple was first, and the 970 didn't ship until months later) by "announcing" it just before the iPhone came out. Do people actually fall for this crap?



    Now speaking about the 980, how come it takes Huawei years and over 1,000 engineers to build a processor that uses off-the-shelf CPU and GPU cores? And still uses the vastly inferior UFS for storage (while Apple will be on their 4th generation NVMe)? What exactly have they developed in terms of IP related to processors?

    I see you linked Anandtech, but left out the performance claims. They're stating a Geekbench single core score of 3,300 for an A76 core (as used in the 980). The A11 scores 4,200. So a year old A11 core on the older 10nm process is STILL significantly faster than an A76 core on 7nm. Doesn't seem that impressive to me. At all.
    Cores and SoCs. Two different things. SoCs and phones. Two different things.

    Vapourware? The Kirin 980 was sitting there and running at IFA 2018. It is just waiting for the phone to launch (October 16th).
    Huawei only has a small volume of Kirin 980 samples until TMSC has met its contractual obligations to Apple. Neither you nor I know if or when Kirin 980 production has started or will start.
    You're kidding right? None of us know if the Kirin 980 production will actually start, this is your best argument on the subject.  You know what, there is no point arguing with Apple people, you're all still running around telling people how Apple was the first company to ever trade above a $1 trillion market cap, yet it's not true.  The first company to ever trade with a $1 trillion market cap was PetroChina back in 2007, it wasn't for very long, but it was valued at over $1 trillion on the first day of trade ($1.4T in actual fact was its peak). So remember, you have to say Apple was the first company to ever be worth more than $1 trillion* 

    *first US company
    So according to you, and Avon B7,  Huawei had plenty of Kirin 980's available to get an additional three weeks jump on Apple, but either wasn't ready to produce Mate 20's or decided to wait until October 16 to release the Mate 20, some 6 weeks of lost sales?

    Oh, and as for PetroChina;

    https://www.cnbc.com/2018/08/02/petrochina-did-not-fare-well-after-reaching-1-trillion-in-market-cap.html

    So, yeah, PetroChina was the first, for a short time, and then collapsed. How wonderful.
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