Development costs 'prohibitively high' for 7nm chips for everybody but Apple and TSMC

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  • Reply 81 of 88
    melgrossmelgross Posts: 30,846member
    Alexaqua said:
    avon b7 said:
    avon b7 said:
    avon b7 said:
    tmay said:
    avon b7 said:
    tmay said:
    avon b7 said:
    tmay said:
    avon b7 said:
    avon b7 said:
    HiSilicon (Huawei) has had 7nm chips in mass production (TSMC) since around June according to many rumours. It has also been said that they have a contractual amount of orders (millions) to be fulfilled for launch phones (suspected to be three models in the short term). 

    Apple needs volume on launch because it releases one refresh every year.

    Huawei will release four flagship phones over the coming 12 months and as a result doesn't have anywhere near the pent up demand for September/October release. It will be spread out over the year and before year's end the Kirin 980 will also be in mid tier devices as well as non-handset devices.

    Quite why this report exists is a mystery as Huawei presented the Kirin 980 just last week to a world audience at IFA Berlin, live blogged and all:

    https://www.anandtech.com/show/13302/ifa-2018-huawei-kirin-980-keynote-live-blog

    They said it took three years to develop and gave the date of presentation for the first phone to use it: 16th October.

    Honor said the Magic 2 would also use it very soon. Rumours point to a December release. They wouldn't have announced that part if supply constraints were expected.

    This is the second time DigiTimes has made this type of claim (I'm basing this on AI articles). The first time was when they claimed only Apple and Samsung had the financial resources to bring 7nm to market.

    https://appleinsider.com/articles/17/12/13/apple-samsung-could-be-only-smartphone-makers-with-7nm-chips-in-2018

    blah blah Kirin blah blah Huawei blah blah 7nm blah blah

    Nobody cares about your constant Huawei shilling.

    Apple will be the THE FIRST company on the planet with 7nm chips. This is a fact. Huawei "announcing" they have the Kirin 980 means absolutely nothing. Apple will have working iPhones with the A12 7nm chip on September 12th. And they'll have 10's of millions shipping out a week later. Which means Apple would have had already received millions of A12 processors months ago. Unless you think you can fab a processor (in the millions) in only a couple days, and then get them into iPhones (by the millions) in a couple more days.

    All Huawei is trying to do is trick gullible/stupid people into thinking they were first, because Huawei knows Apple won't say anything about their A12 processor. So they can yap all they want knowing full well Apple will stay silent. Intelligent people know who's first (using INDUSTRY ACCEPTED STANDARDS). And that is Apple.

    Announcing is not shipping. The Kirin 980 is vaporware at this point. Just like last year when Huawei lied and claimed the Kirin 970 was the first processor with a neural processor (the A11 from Apple was first, and the 970 didn't ship until months later) by "announcing" it just before the iPhone came out. Do people actually fall for this crap?



    Now speaking about the 980, how come it takes Huawei years and over 1,000 engineers to build a processor that uses off-the-shelf CPU and GPU cores? And still uses the vastly inferior UFS for storage (while Apple will be on their 4th generation NVMe)? What exactly have they developed in terms of IP related to processors?

    I see you linked Anandtech, but left out the performance claims. They're stating a Geekbench single core score of 3,300 for an A76 core (as used in the 980). The A11 scores 4,200. So a year old A11 core on the older 10nm process is STILL significantly faster than an A76 core on 7nm. Doesn't seem that impressive to me. At all.
    Cores and SoCs. Two different things. SoCs and phones. Two different things.

    Vapourware? The Kirin 980 was sitting there and running at IFA 2018. It is just waiting for the phone to launch (October 16th).
    Huawei only has a small volume of Kirin 980 samples until TMSC has met its contractual obligations to Apple. Neither you nor I know if or when Kirin 980 production has started or will start.
    How on earth can you know that?
    Uhm, because Apple spends the most money, by far, and has one of the longest running exclusive relationships at TMSC, and the fact that Apple has volume production of the iPhone in process, with deliveries beginning in just a couple of weeks.

    If this wasn't the case, why would Huawei have waited to release the new phones in mid October? They could have moved heaven and earth to have these phones ready before Apple, but only if they had processors in volume before Apple does. It wouldn't even need to be a big volume, just a few millions shipped to a single market.

    I gave you a scenario where Apple ships 85 m iPhones this quarter, which will work out to about 60 million of the three new models. That will drive renege over $100B for the quarter.

    EDIT;

    I would also note that TMSC makes, unless I am in error, all of the other SoC's that Apple uses for all of the older model iPhones, for the Watch, AppleTV, AirPod's, et al, although not all of them are or need to be, at the newest node.
    So, that was the long winded version of 'you don't know at all'. Great!

    Think about it for a moment. Huawei could release it today if it wanted. No need to move heaven and earth. We're talking about a few weeks difference and there were rumours of mass Kirin 980 production as far back as April this year It could  limit the release to just one region and phase the roll out. Just like many manufacturers (including Huawei already do).

    Now think a little harder. Could it be that Huawei might just have its own plans for release and not give a damn about Apple?

    You know, like releasing the Mate 20 in exactly the same way as it released the Mate 10?
    I have given you a logical scenario, based on Apple being TMSC's preeminent and exclusive customer, and its volumes of 7nm production, as well as total production. Your retort is that Huawei "has its own plans", rather than a later access to 7nm production.

    Which scenario is most likely?

    Certainly not yours.
    Ah, now it boils down to logical scenarios.

    Here's another one for you to chew on.

    Don't you think that contractual obligations also exist between TMSC and ALL its customers????

    Or do you think there are clauses in their contracts that hold disclaimers like:

    "You will get your chips as long as we have spare capacity after fulfilling Apple's orders"

    What is logical in that? You have no reason to doubt Huawei has everything it ordered for launch, not even the infamous virus issue.

    Why? Because they haven't said ANYTHING to that effect and have announced that at least two phones (one from Honor and one from Huawei) will be shipping soon.

    Apple will beat Huawei at everything regarding 7nm chips. Apple would have finished taping out sooner, they would have placed their multi-million order sooner, they will receive those millions of chips sooner and they will be selling them in actual devices sooner. Every single step of the way Apple will be ahead of Huawei. This is simple logic. How else could Apple fulfill 10's of millions of iPhone sales (in the first month) if they were somehow behind Huawei in the production of 7nm chips? It's simply not possible.

    Yet despite being ahead of Huawei at literally everything, you want to take Huawei's "announcement" of their processor as definitive proof they they are first. Utterly pathetic, even for a troll.
    You lost me there.

    Please quote me so I have an inkling of what you are talking about. Don't put words into my mouth, just quote me.

    Better yet, I'll ask you point blank.

    Who will be the first company with 7nm processors? Apple or Huawei?
    Easy. Huawei. LOL. I saw one at IFA. It was officially presented in Berlin (Germany, not Connecticut). There was even a Huawei employee walking around with a phone that probably had one inside!

    Nothing official from Apple though.

    I bet you wished you had worded that question better!

    Now, please quote me. I would like you to tell me point blank and 'in my own words' which part is the problem part.

    You charged in yet again with your troll calling and no respect. it isn't the first time either so please provide the quote.
    Again, a prototype that is not from an actual product sold to an actual customer, does not meet any non-troll definition of being first to the market. You’re just playing stupid word games now, because your pride won’t let you concede being wrong. Your knockoff won’t be first to market. Again. That’s what happens when your heroes are chinese knockoffs. 
    My hero knockoff is a company called PetroChina, it traded above $1 trillion back in Nov 2007 which makes it the first company to ever be worth more than $1 trillion and a full 10 years before Apple. 
    Again, you have a really bad sense of should be a hero. The Chinese government forced financial institutions to buy up PC stock, and si it opened up at that ludicrous number. Shortly after it opened, the government lost control, as should have been obvious to them, and no one was buying the stock at those prices, so it shortly collapsed. The price for the past ten tears, or so, more accurately reflects the real worth of the company.

    this is why the company is rarely mentioned as anything other than a quick sentence. More often it’s discussed as a product of an unworkable market where the government attempts to control the results.
  • Reply 82 of 88
    melgrossmelgross Posts: 30,846member
    Soli said:
    Alexaqua said:
    avon b7 said:
    avon b7 said:
    avon b7 said:
    tmay said:
    avon b7 said:
    tmay said:
    avon b7 said:
    tmay said:
    avon b7 said:
    avon b7 said:
    HiSilicon (Huawei) has had 7nm chips in mass production (TSMC) since around June according to many rumours. It has also been said that they have a contractual amount of orders (millions) to be fulfilled for launch phones (suspected to be three models in the short term). 

    Apple needs volume on launch because it releases one refresh every year.

    Huawei will release four flagship phones over the coming 12 months and as a result doesn't have anywhere near the pent up demand for September/October release. It will be spread out over the year and before year's end the Kirin 980 will also be in mid tier devices as well as non-handset devices.

    Quite why this report exists is a mystery as Huawei presented the Kirin 980 just last week to a world audience at IFA Berlin, live blogged and all:

    https://www.anandtech.com/show/13302/ifa-2018-huawei-kirin-980-keynote-live-blog

    They said it took three years to develop and gave the date of presentation for the first phone to use it: 16th October.

    Honor said the Magic 2 would also use it very soon. Rumours point to a December release. They wouldn't have announced that part if supply constraints were expected.

    This is the second time DigiTimes has made this type of claim (I'm basing this on AI articles). The first time was when they claimed only Apple and Samsung had the financial resources to bring 7nm to market.

    https://appleinsider.com/articles/17/12/13/apple-samsung-could-be-only-smartphone-makers-with-7nm-chips-in-2018

    blah blah Kirin blah blah Huawei blah blah 7nm blah blah

    Nobody cares about your constant Huawei shilling.

    Apple will be the THE FIRST company on the planet with 7nm chips. This is a fact. Huawei "announcing" they have the Kirin 980 means absolutely nothing. Apple will have working iPhones with the A12 7nm chip on September 12th. And they'll have 10's of millions shipping out a week later. Which means Apple would have had already received millions of A12 processors months ago. Unless you think you can fab a processor (in the millions) in only a couple days, and then get them into iPhones (by the millions) in a couple more days.

    All Huawei is trying to do is trick gullible/stupid people into thinking they were first, because Huawei knows Apple won't say anything about their A12 processor. So they can yap all they want knowing full well Apple will stay silent. Intelligent people know who's first (using INDUSTRY ACCEPTED STANDARDS). And that is Apple.

    Announcing is not shipping. The Kirin 980 is vaporware at this point. Just like last year when Huawei lied and claimed the Kirin 970 was the first processor with a neural processor (the A11 from Apple was first, and the 970 didn't ship until months later) by "announcing" it just before the iPhone came out. Do people actually fall for this crap?



    Now speaking about the 980, how come it takes Huawei years and over 1,000 engineers to build a processor that uses off-the-shelf CPU and GPU cores? And still uses the vastly inferior UFS for storage (while Apple will be on their 4th generation NVMe)? What exactly have they developed in terms of IP related to processors?

    I see you linked Anandtech, but left out the performance claims. They're stating a Geekbench single core score of 3,300 for an A76 core (as used in the 980). The A11 scores 4,200. So a year old A11 core on the older 10nm process is STILL significantly faster than an A76 core on 7nm. Doesn't seem that impressive to me. At all.
    Cores and SoCs. Two different things. SoCs and phones. Two different things.

    Vapourware? The Kirin 980 was sitting there and running at IFA 2018. It is just waiting for the phone to launch (October 16th).
    Huawei only has a small volume of Kirin 980 samples until TMSC has met its contractual obligations to Apple. Neither you nor I know if or when Kirin 980 production has started or will start.
    How on earth can you know that?
    Uhm, because Apple spends the most money, by far, and has one of the longest running exclusive relationships at TMSC, and the fact that Apple has volume production of the iPhone in process, with deliveries beginning in just a couple of weeks.

    If this wasn't the case, why would Huawei have waited to release the new phones in mid October? They could have moved heaven and earth to have these phones ready before Apple, but only if they had processors in volume before Apple does. It wouldn't even need to be a big volume, just a few millions shipped to a single market.

    I gave you a scenario where Apple ships 85 m iPhones this quarter, which will work out to about 60 million of the three new models. That will drive renege over $100B for the quarter.

    EDIT;

    I would also note that TMSC makes, unless I am in error, all of the other SoC's that Apple uses for all of the older model iPhones, for the Watch, AppleTV, AirPod's, et al, although not all of them are or need to be, at the newest node.
    So, that was the long winded version of 'you don't know at all'. Great!

    Think about it for a moment. Huawei could release it today if it wanted. No need to move heaven and earth. We're talking about a few weeks difference and there were rumours of mass Kirin 980 production as far back as April this year It could  limit the release to just one region and phase the roll out. Just like many manufacturers (including Huawei already do).

    Now think a little harder. Could it be that Huawei might just have its own plans for release and not give a damn about Apple?

    You know, like releasing the Mate 20 in exactly the same way as it released the Mate 10?
    I have given you a logical scenario, based on Apple being TMSC's preeminent and exclusive customer, and its volumes of 7nm production, as well as total production. Your retort is that Huawei "has its own plans", rather than a later access to 7nm production.

    Which scenario is most likely?

    Certainly not yours.
    Ah, now it boils down to logical scenarios.

    Here's another one for you to chew on.

    Don't you think that contractual obligations also exist between TMSC and ALL its customers????

    Or do you think there are clauses in their contracts that hold disclaimers like:

    "You will get your chips as long as we have spare capacity after fulfilling Apple's orders"

    What is logical in that? You have no reason to doubt Huawei has everything it ordered for launch, not even the infamous virus issue.

    Why? Because they haven't said ANYTHING to that effect and have announced that at least two phones (one from Honor and one from Huawei) will be shipping soon.

    Apple will beat Huawei at everything regarding 7nm chips. Apple would have finished taping out sooner, they would have placed their multi-million order sooner, they will receive those millions of chips sooner and they will be selling them in actual devices sooner. Every single step of the way Apple will be ahead of Huawei. This is simple logic. How else could Apple fulfill 10's of millions of iPhone sales (in the first month) if they were somehow behind Huawei in the production of 7nm chips? It's simply not possible.

    Yet despite being ahead of Huawei at literally everything, you want to take Huawei's "announcement" of their processor as definitive proof they they are first. Utterly pathetic, even for a troll.
    You lost me there.

    Please quote me so I have an inkling of what you are talking about. Don't put words into my mouth, just quote me.

    Better yet, I'll ask you point blank.

    Who will be the first company with 7nm processors? Apple or Huawei?
    Easy. Huawei. LOL. I saw one at IFA. It was officially presented in Berlin (Germany, not Connecticut). There was even a Huawei employee walking around with a phone that probably had one inside!

    Nothing official from Apple though.

    I bet you wished you had worded that question better!

    Now, please quote me. I would like you to tell me point blank and 'in my own words' which part is the problem part.

    You charged in yet again with your troll calling and no respect. it isn't the first time either so please provide the quote.
    Again, a prototype that is not from an actual product sold to an actual customer, does not meet any non-troll definition of being first to the market. You’re just playing stupid word games now, because your pride won’t let you concede being wrong. Your knockoff won’t be first to market. Again. That’s what happens when your heroes are chinese knockoffs. 
    My hero knockoff is a company called PetroChina, it traded above $1 trillion back in Nov 2007 which makes it the first company to ever be worth more than $1 trillion and a full 10 years before Apple. 
    1) You literally just wrote that in the preceding comment.

    2) We all know this. This is common knowledge around here, but you fail to note that they not only didn't close at $1T but have never even came close again. You can find posts from longterm members on this forum saying that an interday blip doesn't count for AAPL; that it has to close over $1T. Even then, if Apple had reached it, closed at 1.00001T, and then fell drastically and never achieved it again then myself and countless others here would have an asterisk next to Apple's name (just like Petro China) if we had referenced it as being a trillion dollar company.

    3) To use any short term blip and then try expanding that is like saying you can run faster than Usain bolt in the 100M by averaging your speed over the fastest time in the shortest distance possible. Do you really think that makes sense? I don't.
    The only reason why the few that bring this up, is because they aren’t happy when Apple achieves any milestone. This is their way of dismissing it. Amazon reached $1 trillion this past Tuesday, but just for a few minutes. Now they’re down, as the market is today. But no one has any doubts they will, very shortly (unless the market dumps for a while), climb back over that number, and stay there. Maybe Google will be next, or possibly Microsoft.

    it’s going to happen. If we have a recession, Apple, and others will drop again, but will pop back afterwards. This is the way the market operates. But that Petrochina valuation was unreal, as I’ve said in my other two posts, because of heavy Chinese government manulipulation of the IPO, and the market overall. The Chinese can’t seem to stop doing this. They did it last year too, to disasterous results. But I doubt they’ll make the same mistake they made with PC anytime soon.
    edited September 5 Soli
  • Reply 83 of 88
    SoliSoli Posts: 8,137member
    melgross said:
    Soli said:
    1) You literally just wrote that in the preceding comment.

    2) We all know this. This is common knowledge around here, but you fail to note that they not only didn't close at $1T but have never even came close again. You can find posts from longterm members on this forum saying that an interday blip doesn't count for AAPL; that it has to close over $1T. Even then, if Apple had reached it, closed at 1.00001T, and then fell drastically and never achieved it again then myself and countless others here would have an asterisk next to Apple's name (just like Petro China) if we had referenced it as being a trillion dollar company.

    3) To use any short term blip and then try expanding that is like saying you can run faster than Usain bolt in the 100M by averaging your speed over the fastest time in the shortest distance possible. Do you really think that makes sense? I don't.
    The only reason why the few that bring this up, is because they aren’t happy when Apple achieves any milestone. This is their way of dismissing it. Amazon reached $1 trillion this past Tuesday, but just for a few minutes. Now they’re down, as the market is today. But no one has any doubts they will, very shortly (unless the market dumps for a while), climb back over that number, and stay there. Maybe Google will be next, or possibly Microsoft.

    it’s going to happen. If we have a recession, Apple, and others will drop again, but will pop back afterwards. This is the way the market operates. But that Petrochina valuation was unreal, as I’ve said in my other two posts, because of heavy Chinese government manulipulation of the IPO, and the market overall. The Chinese can’t seem to stop doing this. They did it last year too, to disasterous results. But I doubt they’ll make the same mistake they made with PC anytime soon.
    Within a couple years or after the next recession it might be best to categorize the Trillion dollar companies based on how long they've been over $1T. If there's a recession the tech industry will be hit extremely hard, and I'm already wondering if Apple's current rise is a bubble (based on WS' attitude toward Apple, not Apple's overwhelming profits and what I believe is a very clear vision of future success). While I'm always surprised by Amazon's crazy stock price and their P/E, I wouldn't be surprised if they surpass Apple, especially after a recession, which is why I believe the duration a company has been in the Trillionaires Club might make its way to a Wikipedia page.
  • Reply 84 of 88
    tmaytmay Posts: 2,990member
    avon b7 said:
    melgross said:
    avon b7 said:
    avon b7 said:
    avon b7 said:
    tmay said:
    avon b7 said:
    tmay said:
    avon b7 said:
    tmay said:
    avon b7 said:
    avon b7 said:
    HiSilicon (Huawei) has had 7nm chips in mass production (TSMC) since around June according to many rumours. It has also been said that they have a contractual amount of orders (millions) to be fulfilled for launch phones (suspected to be three models in the short term). 

    Apple needs volume on launch because it releases one refresh every year.

    Huawei will release four flagship phones over the coming 12 months and as a result doesn't have anywhere near the pent up demand for September/October release. It will be spread out over the year and before year's end the Kirin 980 will also be in mid tier devices as well as non-handset devices.

    Quite why this report exists is a mystery as Huawei presented the Kirin 980 just last week to a world audience at IFA Berlin, live blogged and all:

    https://www.anandtech.com/show/13302/ifa-2018-huawei-kirin-980-keynote-live-blog

    They said it took three years to develop and gave the date of presentation for the first phone to use it: 16th October.

    Honor said the Magic 2 would also use it very soon. Rumours point to a December release. They wouldn't have announced that part if supply constraints were expected.

    This is the second time DigiTimes has made this type of claim (I'm basing this on AI articles). The first time was when they claimed only Apple and Samsung had the financial resources to bring 7nm to market.

    https://appleinsider.com/articles/17/12/13/apple-samsung-could-be-only-smartphone-makers-with-7nm-chips-in-2018

    blah blah Kirin blah blah Huawei blah blah 7nm blah blah

    Nobody cares about your constant Huawei shilling.

    Apple will be the THE FIRST company on the planet with 7nm chips. This is a fact. Huawei "announcing" they have the Kirin 980 means absolutely nothing. Apple will have working iPhones with the A12 7nm chip on September 12th. And they'll have 10's of millions shipping out a week later. Which means Apple would have had already received millions of A12 processors months ago. Unless you think you can fab a processor (in the millions) in only a couple days, and then get them into iPhones (by the millions) in a couple more days.

    All Huawei is trying to do is trick gullible/stupid people into thinking they were first, because Huawei knows Apple won't say anything about their A12 processor. So they can yap all they want knowing full well Apple will stay silent. Intelligent people know who's first (using INDUSTRY ACCEPTED STANDARDS). And that is Apple.

    Announcing is not shipping. The Kirin 980 is vaporware at this point. Just like last year when Huawei lied and claimed the Kirin 970 was the first processor with a neural processor (the A11 from Apple was first, and the 970 didn't ship until months later) by "announcing" it just before the iPhone came out. Do people actually fall for this crap?



    Now speaking about the 980, how come it takes Huawei years and over 1,000 engineers to build a processor that uses off-the-shelf CPU and GPU cores? And still uses the vastly inferior UFS for storage (while Apple will be on their 4th generation NVMe)? What exactly have they developed in terms of IP related to processors?

    I see you linked Anandtech, but left out the performance claims. They're stating a Geekbench single core score of 3,300 for an A76 core (as used in the 980). The A11 scores 4,200. So a year old A11 core on the older 10nm process is STILL significantly faster than an A76 core on 7nm. Doesn't seem that impressive to me. At all.
    Cores and SoCs. Two different things. SoCs and phones. Two different things.

    Vapourware? The Kirin 980 was sitting there and running at IFA 2018. It is just waiting for the phone to launch (October 16th).
    Huawei only has a small volume of Kirin 980 samples until TMSC has met its contractual obligations to Apple. Neither you nor I know if or when Kirin 980 production has started or will start.
    How on earth can you know that?
    Uhm, because Apple spends the most money, by far, and has one of the longest running exclusive relationships at TMSC, and the fact that Apple has volume production of the iPhone in process, with deliveries beginning in just a couple of weeks.

    If this wasn't the case, why would Huawei have waited to release the new phones in mid October? They could have moved heaven and earth to have these phones ready before Apple, but only if they had processors in volume before Apple does. It wouldn't even need to be a big volume, just a few millions shipped to a single market.

    I gave you a scenario where Apple ships 85 m iPhones this quarter, which will work out to about 60 million of the three new models. That will drive renege over $100B for the quarter.

    EDIT;

    I would also note that TMSC makes, unless I am in error, all of the other SoC's that Apple uses for all of the older model iPhones, for the Watch, AppleTV, AirPod's, et al, although not all of them are or need to be, at the newest node.
    So, that was the long winded version of 'you don't know at all'. Great!

    Think about it for a moment. Huawei could release it today if it wanted. No need to move heaven and earth. We're talking about a few weeks difference and there were rumours of mass Kirin 980 production as far back as April this year It could  limit the release to just one region and phase the roll out. Just like many manufacturers (including Huawei already do).

    Now think a little harder. Could it be that Huawei might just have its own plans for release and not give a damn about Apple?

    You know, like releasing the Mate 20 in exactly the same way as it released the Mate 10?
    I have given you a logical scenario, based on Apple being TMSC's preeminent and exclusive customer, and its volumes of 7nm production, as well as total production. Your retort is that Huawei "has its own plans", rather than a later access to 7nm production.

    Which scenario is most likely?

    Certainly not yours.
    Ah, now it boils down to logical scenarios.

    Here's another one for you to chew on.

    Don't you think that contractual obligations also exist between TMSC and ALL its customers????

    Or do you think there are clauses in their contracts that hold disclaimers like:

    "You will get your chips as long as we have spare capacity after fulfilling Apple's orders"

    What is logical in that? You have no reason to doubt Huawei has everything it ordered for launch, not even the infamous virus issue.

    Why? Because they haven't said ANYTHING to that effect and have announced that at least two phones (one from Honor and one from Huawei) will be shipping soon.

    Apple will beat Huawei at everything regarding 7nm chips. Apple would have finished taping out sooner, they would have placed their multi-million order sooner, they will receive those millions of chips sooner and they will be selling them in actual devices sooner. Every single step of the way Apple will be ahead of Huawei. This is simple logic. How else could Apple fulfill 10's of millions of iPhone sales (in the first month) if they were somehow behind Huawei in the production of 7nm chips? It's simply not possible.

    Yet despite being ahead of Huawei at literally everything, you want to take Huawei's "announcement" of their processor as definitive proof they they are first. Utterly pathetic, even for a troll.
    You lost me there.

    Please quote me so I have an inkling of what you are talking about. Don't put words into my mouth, just quote me.

    Better yet, I'll ask you point blank.

    Who will be the first company with 7nm processors? Apple or Huawei?
    Easy. Huawei. LOL. I saw one at IFA. It was officially presented in Berlin (Germany, not Connecticut). There was even a Huawei employee walking around with a phone that probably had one inside!

    Nothing official from Apple though.

    I bet you wished you had worded that question better!

    Now, please quote me. I would like you to tell me point blank and 'in my own words' which part is the problem part.

    You charged in yet again with your troll calling and no respect. it isn't the first time either so please provide the quote.
    Sorry, but no. That’s meaningless, and you know it.
    Ah, yes. Of course I know it.

    Someone is ranting on what I said and not even bothering in the slightest to attempt to see that I was responding to the contents of the article sitting at the top of this thread.

    What I wrote was 100% correct on the factual statement and supported with common sense information elsewhere.

    Only to have someone charge in and rant with his 'bla, bla, bla, troll, shill...' discourse.

    Well, he couldn't quote me on anything. No surprise there so at the end of the day he lost credibility. Not that he had much in the first place after his initial rant and name calling.

    I am respectful of everybody, no matter their opinion. We can argue all day about some things some of the time but then be in complete agreement on something else until the cows come home. We can be firm in the defence of our opinions but always respecting not only the opinions of others but them as people too.

    But if someone persistently shows a lack of respect and makes personal claims that are unfounded, then they open themselves to being called out on it.
    How about this:

    https://www.theregister.co.uk/2018/09/05/huawei_on_smartphone_benchmarks/

    Yet another reason that I don't have much trust in the reliability of anything that Huawei states; marketing always over accuracy.
  • Reply 85 of 88
    avon b7avon b7 Posts: 2,590member
    tmay said:
    Alexaqua said:
    tmay said:
    avon b7 said:
    avon b7 said:
    HiSilicon (Huawei) has had 7nm chips in mass production (TSMC) since around June according to many rumours. It has also been said that they have a contractual amount of orders (millions) to be fulfilled for launch phones (suspected to be three models in the short term). 

    Apple needs volume on launch because it releases one refresh every year.

    Huawei will release four flagship phones over the coming 12 months and as a result doesn't have anywhere near the pent up demand for September/October release. It will be spread out over the year and before year's end the Kirin 980 will also be in mid tier devices as well as non-handset devices.

    Quite why this report exists is a mystery as Huawei presented the Kirin 980 just last week to a world audience at IFA Berlin, live blogged and all:

    https://www.anandtech.com/show/13302/ifa-2018-huawei-kirin-980-keynote-live-blog

    They said it took three years to develop and gave the date of presentation for the first phone to use it: 16th October.

    Honor said the Magic 2 would also use it very soon. Rumours point to a December release. They wouldn't have announced that part if supply constraints were expected.

    This is the second time DigiTimes has made this type of claim (I'm basing this on AI articles). The first time was when they claimed only Apple and Samsung had the financial resources to bring 7nm to market.

    https://appleinsider.com/articles/17/12/13/apple-samsung-could-be-only-smartphone-makers-with-7nm-chips-in-2018

    blah blah Kirin blah blah Huawei blah blah 7nm blah blah

    Nobody cares about your constant Huawei shilling.

    Apple will be the THE FIRST company on the planet with 7nm chips. This is a fact. Huawei "announcing" they have the Kirin 980 means absolutely nothing. Apple will have working iPhones with the A12 7nm chip on September 12th. And they'll have 10's of millions shipping out a week later. Which means Apple would have had already received millions of A12 processors months ago. Unless you think you can fab a processor (in the millions) in only a couple days, and then get them into iPhones (by the millions) in a couple more days.

    All Huawei is trying to do is trick gullible/stupid people into thinking they were first, because Huawei knows Apple won't say anything about their A12 processor. So they can yap all they want knowing full well Apple will stay silent. Intelligent people know who's first (using INDUSTRY ACCEPTED STANDARDS). And that is Apple.

    Announcing is not shipping. The Kirin 980 is vaporware at this point. Just like last year when Huawei lied and claimed the Kirin 970 was the first processor with a neural processor (the A11 from Apple was first, and the 970 didn't ship until months later) by "announcing" it just before the iPhone came out. Do people actually fall for this crap?



    Now speaking about the 980, how come it takes Huawei years and over 1,000 engineers to build a processor that uses off-the-shelf CPU and GPU cores? And still uses the vastly inferior UFS for storage (while Apple will be on their 4th generation NVMe)? What exactly have they developed in terms of IP related to processors?

    I see you linked Anandtech, but left out the performance claims. They're stating a Geekbench single core score of 3,300 for an A76 core (as used in the 980). The A11 scores 4,200. So a year old A11 core on the older 10nm process is STILL significantly faster than an A76 core on 7nm. Doesn't seem that impressive to me. At all.
    Cores and SoCs. Two different things. SoCs and phones. Two different things.

    Vapourware? The Kirin 980 was sitting there and running at IFA 2018. It is just waiting for the phone to launch (October 16th).
    Huawei only has a small volume of Kirin 980 samples until TMSC has met its contractual obligations to Apple. Neither you nor I know if or when Kirin 980 production has started or will start.
    You're kidding right? None of us know if the Kirin 980 production will actually start, this is your best argument on the subject.  You know what, there is no point arguing with Apple people, you're all still running around telling people how Apple was the first company to ever trade above a $1 trillion market cap, yet it's not true.  The first company to ever trade with a $1 trillion market cap was PetroChina back in 2007, it wasn't for very long, but it was valued at over $1 trillion on the first day of trade ($1.4T in actual fact was its peak). So remember, you have to say Apple was the first company to ever be worth more than $1 trillion* 

    *first US company
    So according to you, and Avon B7,  Huawei had plenty of Kirin 980's available to get an additional three weeks jump on Apple, but either wasn't ready to produce Mate 20's or decided to wait until October 16 to release the Mate 20, some 6 weeks of lost sales?

    Oh, and as for PetroChina;

    https://www.cnbc.com/2018/08/02/petrochina-did-not-fare-well-after-reaching-1-trillion-in-market-cap.html

    So, yeah, PetroChina was the first, for a short time, and then collapsed. How wonderful.
    I provided a link further up about TSMC customers.

    Here is a snippet:

    "TSMC last week announced that it had started high volume production (HVM) of chips using their first-gen 7 nm (CLN7FF) process technology. The contract maker of semiconductors says it has over a dozen of customers with tens of designs eager to use the technology to make their integrated circuits."

    Clearly Huawei was just one of those  more than a dozen customers.

    Now, what you are proposing is absurd. A SoC does not a smartphone make! There are hardware, software, business, seasonal and other factors in play.

    Having the SoC finalised and in mass production doesn't mean the phone will be launched as soon as they come in.

    Apple was surely also receiving chips in volume back in April and could have got more weeks of sales by releasing earlier too!

    But that logic is supremely flawed.

    I don't doubt the Mate 20 series itself is now finalised and also in volume production but there has to be a cut off point from one flagship to another and Huawei has set that cutoff at 16th October. Just like last year (IFA SoC release and Huawei event phone release). The Mate 10 series will get a full year. Apple will also repeat last year's release plan and set its own cut off point so no surprises in either case. But both have stockpiled SoCs.

    If Huawei cut off earlier it would also affect sales of the P20 series which was released in March and are still in high demand. 

    For SoCs, the A12 has not been released. The Kirin 980 has. Huawei pipped Apple to that post.

    From there, we will see which phones get announced with these SoCs and their respective shipping dates. It looks like Apple will be first to that post.

    As for exclusivity, Apple contracted a specific volume with TSMC. TSMC invested to meet that capacity but also to meet the capacity of other 7nm customers with whom it had contracts. Obviously Huawei had a contract too and it is being served with product as a result.

    Apple chose TSMC as its exclusive supplier. That's Apple's bet and has nothing to do with TSMC. All TSMC has to do is deliver on the agreed numbers and in the agreed timeframe - just as it will do with every other one of the more than a dozen 7nm customers.
    edited September 5
  • Reply 86 of 88
    melgrossmelgross Posts: 30,846member
    avon b7 said:
    tmay said:
    Alexaqua said:
    tmay said:
    avon b7 said:
    avon b7 said:
    HiSilicon (Huawei) has had 7nm chips in mass production (TSMC) since around June according to many rumours. It has also been said that they have a contractual amount of orders (millions) to be fulfilled for launch phones (suspected to be three models in the short term). 

    Apple needs volume on launch because it releases one refresh every year.

    Huawei will release four flagship phones over the coming 12 months and as a result doesn't have anywhere near the pent up demand for September/October release. It will be spread out over the year and before year's end the Kirin 980 will also be in mid tier devices as well as non-handset devices.

    Quite why this report exists is a mystery as Huawei presented the Kirin 980 just last week to a world audience at IFA Berlin, live blogged and all:

    https://www.anandtech.com/show/13302/ifa-2018-huawei-kirin-980-keynote-live-blog

    They said it took three years to develop and gave the date of presentation for the first phone to use it: 16th October.

    Honor said the Magic 2 would also use it very soon. Rumours point to a December release. They wouldn't have announced that part if supply constraints were expected.

    This is the second time DigiTimes has made this type of claim (I'm basing this on AI articles). The first time was when they claimed only Apple and Samsung had the financial resources to bring 7nm to market.

    https://appleinsider.com/articles/17/12/13/apple-samsung-could-be-only-smartphone-makers-with-7nm-chips-in-2018

    blah blah Kirin blah blah Huawei blah blah 7nm blah blah

    Nobody cares about your constant Huawei shilling.

    Apple will be the THE FIRST company on the planet with 7nm chips. This is a fact. Huawei "announcing" they have the Kirin 980 means absolutely nothing. Apple will have working iPhones with the A12 7nm chip on September 12th. And they'll have 10's of millions shipping out a week later. Which means Apple would have had already received millions of A12 processors months ago. Unless you think you can fab a processor (in the millions) in only a couple days, and then get them into iPhones (by the millions) in a couple more days.

    All Huawei is trying to do is trick gullible/stupid people into thinking they were first, because Huawei knows Apple won't say anything about their A12 processor. So they can yap all they want knowing full well Apple will stay silent. Intelligent people know who's first (using INDUSTRY ACCEPTED STANDARDS). And that is Apple.

    Announcing is not shipping. The Kirin 980 is vaporware at this point. Just like last year when Huawei lied and claimed the Kirin 970 was the first processor with a neural processor (the A11 from Apple was first, and the 970 didn't ship until months later) by "announcing" it just before the iPhone came out. Do people actually fall for this crap?



    Now speaking about the 980, how come it takes Huawei years and over 1,000 engineers to build a processor that uses off-the-shelf CPU and GPU cores? And still uses the vastly inferior UFS for storage (while Apple will be on their 4th generation NVMe)? What exactly have they developed in terms of IP related to processors?

    I see you linked Anandtech, but left out the performance claims. They're stating a Geekbench single core score of 3,300 for an A76 core (as used in the 980). The A11 scores 4,200. So a year old A11 core on the older 10nm process is STILL significantly faster than an A76 core on 7nm. Doesn't seem that impressive to me. At all.
    Cores and SoCs. Two different things. SoCs and phones. Two different things.

    Vapourware? The Kirin 980 was sitting there and running at IFA 2018. It is just waiting for the phone to launch (October 16th).
    Huawei only has a small volume of Kirin 980 samples until TMSC has met its contractual obligations to Apple. Neither you nor I know if or when Kirin 980 production has started or will start.
    You're kidding right? None of us know if the Kirin 980 production will actually start, this is your best argument on the subject.  You know what, there is no point arguing with Apple people, you're all still running around telling people how Apple was the first company to ever trade above a $1 trillion market cap, yet it's not true.  The first company to ever trade with a $1 trillion market cap was PetroChina back in 2007, it wasn't for very long, but it was valued at over $1 trillion on the first day of trade ($1.4T in actual fact was its peak). So remember, you have to say Apple was the first company to ever be worth more than $1 trillion* 

    *first US company
    So according to you, and Avon B7,  Huawei had plenty of Kirin 980's available to get an additional three weeks jump on Apple, but either wasn't ready to produce Mate 20's or decided to wait until October 16 to release the Mate 20, some 6 weeks of lost sales?

    Oh, and as for PetroChina;

    https://www.cnbc.com/2018/08/02/petrochina-did-not-fare-well-after-reaching-1-trillion-in-market-cap.html

    So, yeah, PetroChina was the first, for a short time, and then collapsed. How wonderful.
    I provided a link further up about TSMC customers.

    Here is a snippet:

    "TSMC last week announced that it had started high volume production (HVM) of chips using their first-gen 7 nm (CLN7FF) process technology. The contract maker of semiconductors says it has over a dozen of customers with tens of designs eager to use the technology to make their integrated circuits."

    Clearly Huawei was just one of those  more than a dozen customers.

    Now, what you are proposing is absurd. A SoC does not a smartphone make! There are hardware, software, business, seasonal and other factors in play.

    Having the SoC finalised and in mass production doesn't mean the phone will be launched as soon as they come in.

    Apple was surely also receiving chips in volume back in April and could have got more weeks of sales by releasing earlier too!

    But that logic is supremely flawed.

    I don't doubt the Mate 20 series itself is now finalised and also in volume production but there has to be a cut off point from one flagship to another and Huawei has set that cutoff at 16th October. Just like last year (IFA SoC release and Huawei event phone release). The Mate 10 series will get a full year. Apple will also repeat last year's release plan and set its own cut off point so no surprises in either case. But both have stockpiled SoCs.

    If Huawei cut off earlier it would also affect sales of the P20 series which was released in March and are still in high demand. 

    For SoCs, the A12 has not been released. The Kirin 980 has. Huawei pipped Apple to that post.

    From there, we will see which phones get announced with these SoCs and their respective shipping dates. It looks like Apple will be first to that post.

    As for exclusivity, Apple contracted a specific volume with TSMC. TSMC invested to meet that capacity but also to meet the capacity of other 7nm customers with whom it had contracts. Obviously Huawei had a contract too and it is being served with product as a result.

    Apple chose TSMC as its exclusive supplier. That's Apple's bet and has nothing to do with TSMC. All TSMC has to do is deliver on the agreed numbers and in the agreed timeframe - just as it will do with every other one of the more than a dozen 7nm customers.
    Part of what you’re saying is correct, but not all of it. The 980 hasn’t been released any more than the A12 has. Showing a handful of chips and devices at a trade show doesn’t constitute being released. Released is a commercial concept, not a trade show concept. It’s released when it’s either been sold to customers as a product by the originator of the product, not the contract manufacturer, or when the owner of the chip uses it in a product that’s been released for sale. Neither of these products have been.

    and seriously, why are any of us arguing this still? Does it really matter? Just a couple of hours ago I pointed out after reading an article about this on another site, that they talked about the Apple chip, the Qualcomm chip and the somewhat later Samsung chip, all due out this year, or next year, without mentioning the Huawei Kirin 980. I couldn’t understand why they left that out.

    about Apple and TSMC. I mentioned elsewhere about their close relationship with a link. It’s not just typical supplier and customer. Apple paid TSMC money to help build this 7nm facility, as they do with other manufacturers, both large and small, as is very well known, and reported on a number of times. Apple gets something out of that, which is higher discounts on product, and by being put at the front of the line. After that, the company has that plant with which to serve other customers earlier than their competitors.

    so yes, it’s more than Apple just contracting out for chips.
    Solitmay
  • Reply 87 of 88
    SoliSoli Posts: 8,137member
    And another fact to add to post 74 is that Pluto is still a planet when it passes over New Mexico, at least according to the law in New Mexico. How they detail "passing over" for an object that's 7.5B km away is questionable. I wonder if other countries still maintain that Pluto is still a planet.
  • Reply 88 of 88
    avon b7avon b7 Posts: 2,590member
    melgross said:
    avon b7 said:
    tmay said:
    Alexaqua said:
    tmay said:
    avon b7 said:
    avon b7 said:
    HiSilicon (Huawei) has had 7nm chips in mass production (TSMC) since around June according to many rumours. It has also been said that they have a contractual amount of orders (millions) to be fulfilled for launch phones (suspected to be three models in the short term). 

    Apple needs volume on launch because it releases one refresh every year.

    Huawei will release four flagship phones over the coming 12 months and as a result doesn't have anywhere near the pent up demand for September/October release. It will be spread out over the year and before year's end the Kirin 980 will also be in mid tier devices as well as non-handset devices.

    Quite why this report exists is a mystery as Huawei presented the Kirin 980 just last week to a world audience at IFA Berlin, live blogged and all:

    https://www.anandtech.com/show/13302/ifa-2018-huawei-kirin-980-keynote-live-blog

    They said it took three years to develop and gave the date of presentation for the first phone to use it: 16th October.

    Honor said the Magic 2 would also use it very soon. Rumours point to a December release. They wouldn't have announced that part if supply constraints were expected.

    This is the second time DigiTimes has made this type of claim (I'm basing this on AI articles). The first time was when they claimed only Apple and Samsung had the financial resources to bring 7nm to market.

    https://appleinsider.com/articles/17/12/13/apple-samsung-could-be-only-smartphone-makers-with-7nm-chips-in-2018

    blah blah Kirin blah blah Huawei blah blah 7nm blah blah

    Nobody cares about your constant Huawei shilling.

    Apple will be the THE FIRST company on the planet with 7nm chips. This is a fact. Huawei "announcing" they have the Kirin 980 means absolutely nothing. Apple will have working iPhones with the A12 7nm chip on September 12th. And they'll have 10's of millions shipping out a week later. Which means Apple would have had already received millions of A12 processors months ago. Unless you think you can fab a processor (in the millions) in only a couple days, and then get them into iPhones (by the millions) in a couple more days.

    All Huawei is trying to do is trick gullible/stupid people into thinking they were first, because Huawei knows Apple won't say anything about their A12 processor. So they can yap all they want knowing full well Apple will stay silent. Intelligent people know who's first (using INDUSTRY ACCEPTED STANDARDS). And that is Apple.

    Announcing is not shipping. The Kirin 980 is vaporware at this point. Just like last year when Huawei lied and claimed the Kirin 970 was the first processor with a neural processor (the A11 from Apple was first, and the 970 didn't ship until months later) by "announcing" it just before the iPhone came out. Do people actually fall for this crap?



    Now speaking about the 980, how come it takes Huawei years and over 1,000 engineers to build a processor that uses off-the-shelf CPU and GPU cores? And still uses the vastly inferior UFS for storage (while Apple will be on their 4th generation NVMe)? What exactly have they developed in terms of IP related to processors?

    I see you linked Anandtech, but left out the performance claims. They're stating a Geekbench single core score of 3,300 for an A76 core (as used in the 980). The A11 scores 4,200. So a year old A11 core on the older 10nm process is STILL significantly faster than an A76 core on 7nm. Doesn't seem that impressive to me. At all.
    Cores and SoCs. Two different things. SoCs and phones. Two different things.

    Vapourware? The Kirin 980 was sitting there and running at IFA 2018. It is just waiting for the phone to launch (October 16th).
    Huawei only has a small volume of Kirin 980 samples until TMSC has met its contractual obligations to Apple. Neither you nor I know if or when Kirin 980 production has started or will start.
    You're kidding right? None of us know if the Kirin 980 production will actually start, this is your best argument on the subject.  You know what, there is no point arguing with Apple people, you're all still running around telling people how Apple was the first company to ever trade above a $1 trillion market cap, yet it's not true.  The first company to ever trade with a $1 trillion market cap was PetroChina back in 2007, it wasn't for very long, but it was valued at over $1 trillion on the first day of trade ($1.4T in actual fact was its peak). So remember, you have to say Apple was the first company to ever be worth more than $1 trillion* 

    *first US company
    So according to you, and Avon B7,  Huawei had plenty of Kirin 980's available to get an additional three weeks jump on Apple, but either wasn't ready to produce Mate 20's or decided to wait until October 16 to release the Mate 20, some 6 weeks of lost sales?

    Oh, and as for PetroChina;

    https://www.cnbc.com/2018/08/02/petrochina-did-not-fare-well-after-reaching-1-trillion-in-market-cap.html

    So, yeah, PetroChina was the first, for a short time, and then collapsed. How wonderful.
    I provided a link further up about TSMC customers.

    Here is a snippet:

    "TSMC last week announced that it had started high volume production (HVM) of chips using their first-gen 7 nm (CLN7FF) process technology. The contract maker of semiconductors says it has over a dozen of customers with tens of designs eager to use the technology to make their integrated circuits."

    Clearly Huawei was just one of those  more than a dozen customers.

    Now, what you are proposing is absurd. A SoC does not a smartphone make! There are hardware, software, business, seasonal and other factors in play.

    Having the SoC finalised and in mass production doesn't mean the phone will be launched as soon as they come in.

    Apple was surely also receiving chips in volume back in April and could have got more weeks of sales by releasing earlier too!

    But that logic is supremely flawed.

    I don't doubt the Mate 20 series itself is now finalised and also in volume production but there has to be a cut off point from one flagship to another and Huawei has set that cutoff at 16th October. Just like last year (IFA SoC release and Huawei event phone release). The Mate 10 series will get a full year. Apple will also repeat last year's release plan and set its own cut off point so no surprises in either case. But both have stockpiled SoCs.

    If Huawei cut off earlier it would also affect sales of the P20 series which was released in March and are still in high demand. 

    For SoCs, the A12 has not been released. The Kirin 980 has. Huawei pipped Apple to that post.

    From there, we will see which phones get announced with these SoCs and their respective shipping dates. It looks like Apple will be first to that post.

    As for exclusivity, Apple contracted a specific volume with TSMC. TSMC invested to meet that capacity but also to meet the capacity of other 7nm customers with whom it had contracts. Obviously Huawei had a contract too and it is being served with product as a result.

    Apple chose TSMC as its exclusive supplier. That's Apple's bet and has nothing to do with TSMC. All TSMC has to do is deliver on the agreed numbers and in the agreed timeframe - just as it will do with every other one of the more than a dozen 7nm customers.
    Part of what you’re saying is correct, but not all of it. The 980 hasn’t been released any more than the A12 has. Showing a handful of chips and devices at a trade show doesn’t constitute being released. Released is a commercial concept, not a trade show concept. It’s released when it’s either been sold to customers as a product by the originator of the product, not the contract manufacturer, or when the owner of the chip uses it in a product that’s been released for sale. Neither of these products have been.

    and seriously, why are any of us arguing this still? Does it really matter? Just a couple of hours ago I pointed out after reading an article about this on another site, that they talked about the Apple chip, the Qualcomm chip and the somewhat later Samsung chip, all due out this year, or next year, without mentioning the Huawei Kirin 980. I couldn’t understand why they left that out.

    about Apple and TSMC. I mentioned elsewhere about their close relationship with a link. It’s not just typical supplier and customer. Apple paid TSMC money to help build this 7nm facility, as they do with other manufacturers, both large and small, as is very well known, and reported on a number of times. Apple gets something out of that, which is higher discounts on product, and by being put at the front of the line. After that, the company has that plant with which to serve other customers earlier than their competitors.

    so yes, it’s more than Apple just contracting out for chips.
    My vague recollection of Apple putting money into TSMC for plant development is similar to yours but I can't find any reference to it when I search for it.

    All I get is references to TSMC spending its own funding to satisfy order capacity. Do you have a link to hand?
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