Hands on: Apple's iPhone XS and XS Max are gorgeous, and a boon for photographers

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Comments

  • Reply 101 of 187
    nht said:
    avon b7 said:
    avon b7 said:
    tmay said:
    avon b7 said:
    tmay said:
    avon b7 said:
    tmay said:
    avon b7 said:
    tmay said:
    avon b7 said:
    melgross said:

    avon b7 said:
    tmay said:
    .
    avon b7 said:
    Is there a difference between the camera mode you are describing and what Huawei phones have done for years?

    The reason I ask is that when they announced the feature I automatically assumed it would be different but what you describe is practically identical to how Huawei phones have operated since the P9. I thought it was already possible on Apple's dual lens phones.

    ....

    Or is not so much what it does as how it does it?
    Huawei? Who cares. Do major US network carriers even carry that pos?
    So you assume that rest of the world does not matter, huh? Arrogance like that does not pay of. Huiwaei dominates markets elswhere and perhaps instead of being arrogant you may need reality check that those phones as well as Samsung dominate in Europe and Apple iPhone is nowhere near. You should star caring because on competitive markets other vendors build solutions that Apple follows (not leads) and some brainwash seems to be out there that Apple is the only innovator. The fact is that Apple came with few features 9(like biometrics) later than Samsung for example, but Samsung never claimed it was copied by Apple so you assume that Apple was first. Instead of reading only Apple news maye be you should start tracking general technology state. You would be surprized what you did not know and assumed that only one vendor innovates.

    Yes we do care about Huwaei, Samsung, LG and Google. Some pople did not review some features and thise dominant on other markets companies already have some stuff that nobody seems here to have a clue about. On top of that some of it is far more practical. Some even say that Pixel 2 photo quality is now top on the market - not Apple iPhones. there will be those now claimin that Aperture mode is so innovative. Well on phones it alreay exist, and it was used on SLR cameras (I used it for years) for decades now. It just got squeezed into smaller package - nothing else.
    I'll post this link;

    https://www.ped30.com/2018/09/20/counterpoint-regions-apple-iphone/

    Apple doesn't have an iPhone under $449, though there may be lower cost models manufacturer for India.

    Seriously, do you think that this data makes Apple look bad?

    Sure, Apple doesn't cater at all to the under $400 market, where the bulk of Huawei's sales are, but I will state that it is likely that Apple will sell a similar number of XS and XS Max units World Wide by the end of this month, as Huawei has sold of the P20 series since its March release. The P20 Pro isn't a great seller, although Avon B7 has tried to portray it as a great success, with pretty flakey data. Maybe it is. Nonetheless, is a likelihood that Apple will sell 80 to 85 million iPhones next quarter, and about 70% of those, will be the X models.

    Being first with niche features is a fool's game, but appropriate for the Android OS device market, where any differentiation at all is a huge marketing necessity. That's likely why we see mostly unbaked innovation in these devices first. Apple, works off of internal roadmap, so these companies, and their customers, as guinea pigs for new features is actually savvy.

    Flakey data?

    Niche features?

    The data on P20 Series sales came straight from Huawei. Official numbers. It has been a massive success.

    Aperture Mode is one of the main features on Huawei phones, not a niche feature. Even on my little Honor 10.

    I didn't ask this question last week simply because I thought the feature was different. Seeing the description here, and noting that the process is virtually identical, prompted me to ask.

    There is no need to go on the defensive.
    Well, as we all know, Huawei cheats on testing, something I notice you failed to respond to when I posted that to you in a different thread. I wouldn’t be surprised if they lie about other things too. Whether you like it or not, Chinese companies are known to be, shall we say, flexible, in their company reports. A tiny picture also says little about the quality of the effect, as most everything looks good in a small size. At any rate, we need a couple of dozen images of different types to get an idea as to how well these features work overall, because one well selected image might be great, while most others may be crap.

    aperture mode has to prove itself. Samsung also has a variable aperture, but images using it are no better than those not using it. We’ve also seen a coup,e of phones using two cameras, one taking luminance images, and the other using color images. Supposedly, much better images result. And indeed, the marketing images shown did look pretty good. But when the phones were out in the “wild”, it turned out that the images were pretty bad. These gimmicks rarely work.

    and yes, that evaluation goes for all phones.
    I responded to the Huawei benchmark (and the DSLR) news the very first time it was mentioned here. I responded clearly and openly and was critical of the behaviour. You missed it, it seems.

    You will forgive me for simply passing on the subsequent comments which are simply cheap shots aimed at the company - as a whole - because those comments are simply absurd, as the company as a whole is massive and far removed from the areas involved.

    So when people start questioning the likes of HiSilicon, or the results of the imaging division or battery research - as you yourself did not long ago - it is frankly absurd too. I provide links. With all due respect you have simply limited yourself to telling people they are wrong but without offering any supporting information beyond your own knowledge. Would you accept it if I did the same?

    Huawei is a private company but independently audited just like other companies. There is zero reason to question results.

    On the subject at hand, you are now diverging from the feature itself into the quality if the feature. I have no issue with that. It is a valid comment and I agree - to a degree - but that has nothing to do with my point, which is a completely different.

    And if this feature really hasn't existed on an iPhone until now, the quality is irrevelant. Even just 'acceptable' results would be good enough (even if purely hit and miss), if the other option was not having the feature at all.
    "Huawei is a private company but independently audited just like other companies." There is zero reason to question results." I would feel free to question the results of U.S. company audits, so, no, your statement isn't reassuring.

    Huawei ultimately answers to the authoritarian Chinese government, so, yeah, plenty of reasons to question all things Huawei. 

    As for Apple's Portrait Mode blur feature,

    https://www.businessinsider.com/apple-iphone-portrait-mode-explained-2017-10

    "But Apple was the first to popularize portrait mode, and now offers it on the iPhone 7 Plus, iPhone 8 Plus, and iPhone X."

    Seems like you would have been aware of this feature that was released with the iPhone 7 Plus, that requires dual lenses, but you brought it up so that you could post your Huawei talking points. It's been improved in iOS 12, and has migrated to the single lens XR using focus points to determine depth. Whether Apple was first with faux bokeh is less important than that it was delivered fully baked when Apple popularized it with the iPhone 7.

    How's that Mate 20 doing?.

    By the time Huawei releases it, Apple will already have shipped 15 million iPhone's XS/XR, about the same number of units that that you state Huawei will sell in total for the P20 series. Seems like Huawei has a hill to climb to even meet Apple's unit sales this year.

    Maybe next year.
    Thanks for at least providing an answer.

    As for Portrait mode. Your quote uses the word 'popularize', probably because Huawei had dual cameras months before Apple with its very own portrait mode. Apple's stayed in beta for a year. Not fully baked!

    However, I appreciate the answer all the same. But is this article on 'Portait Mode' or something new regarding depth of field in a wider perspective?

    That was part of my doubt. From the article:

    "We've been dying to check out the new controllable aperture feature exclusive to these new phones"

    That doesn't sound like an existing feature.

    That's why I brought it up. It has nothing to do with 'Huawei talking points'.

    As for the Mate 20, who knows!? LOL.

    We'll have to wait and see.


    Controllable synthetic aperture using a f/stop slider is the new feature.

    If this had nothing to do with Huawei talking points, then why even bring it up? It's obvious that the improvements in usability and IQ for the feature are independent of "who came first", which was the point of your post. More to the point, it would have been exceedingly easy to so a bit of research such that you didn't come off as "partisan".

    You said "wait and see" about the X, and state it was an anniversary model, and that it wasn't selling well, all of which were false. I have stated the it was the new design, which is true, that it was Apple's most successful single model, which is also true. It looks obvious that Apple has deprecated TouchID, and that the iPhone 8's will be the last current models with that feature, as well as the "chin".

    So "wait and see" is just your standard denier of Apple success with the iPhone X. 

    The Mate 20 is going to have fair winds for only a short time in the Android OS device market, then competition will hit from Samsung with a reported four S10 models, and the other Android OS device makers, then you will be back with, "but wait until the P30 comes out!". The Kirin 980 will be up against the Samsung Exynos 9880 and the Qualcomm 855, both at 7nm.
    Why bring it up?

    Why not read why I even bothered to explain exactly why I asked about this in the first place? I've repeated it twice in this thread already!

    I did my 'research' and came up blank. It is clear that posters here didn't know either, hence the lack of answers. Probably because it is easy to confuse the two features.

    And to add insult to injury, now, you throw in:

    "Controllable synthetic aperture using a f/stop slider is the new feature"

    Why didn't you say that in your first reply instead of going into a rant on Huawei and mentioning Portrait Mode? 

    It at least, finally, provides a decent answer, so thanks for that.

    As for the rest, you are re-hashing the same false claims as you always do and wanting to take this far off topic. Open up a new thread if you wish and I will correct all of your claims. I will put you straight on every point. Literally. Quotes and all. We will see what I really said and in what context and if your claims are true.
    www.youtube.com/watch?time_continue=59&v=_g8aLVGXyc0

    Depth Control is explained in the video, among other things;

    www.youtube.com/watch?time_continue=59&v=_g8aLVGXyc0

    Perhaps you might have first searched Apple for marketing information on the iPhone X?

    "Coming up blank" isn't really a satisfactory answer to a notably easy search.

    From the Apple XS page, scrolling about half way down;

    Intelligent A12 Bionic.

     

    This is the smartest, most powerful chip in a smartphone, with our next-generation Neural Engine. For amazing augmented reality experiences. Incredible portraits with Depth Control. And speed and fluidity in everything you do.


    So why the diversion into your portrait mode answer? Why didn't you go straight to the point if you had the answer?


    I knew how it operated as I had seen it during the event stream, it's part of Portrait Mode and will be available as an update this fall, but didn't know what it was called, and as it requires hardware of the new models; my iPhone 7 doesn't support it. So, with the exception that the extra functionality is called Depth Control, I gave you all of the information previously. 

    I looked that up after I posted, but doesn't change the fact that you didn't even attempt to figure that out yourself, and still haven't, I would guess. 

    So now, you feel entitled to blame me, because you are either too inept to do a simple search to figure it out yourself, or too lazy, or you're afraid of all things Apple.

    Or, he was never interested in the answer and is only interested in dropping FUD pellets everywhere he goes. 
    Or, it was exactly as I said it was!

    The simplest conclusion is the one you can't bring yourself to see because in reality you passed judgement from the outset.

    Your over the top reactions and accusations have laid bare your inability to see past your own obsessions. So much that you cannot see a simple question for what it is. I even made it clear why I asked it in the first place.

    The easy answer would have been that this feature is new to iPhone but isn't new. That's all that was necessary.

    In the end there is nothing new in this feature. I really thought there would be, and, as I said, I was taking for granted that the feature (as explained in the article) was already available on all dual camera iPhones. Available since the get go.

    I am surprised, frankly. I thought there was more to the feature itself. I didn't see the presentation by the way, but the take away from many replies in this thread is the ultra defensive attitude of some people.
    “I’m just asking a question! See!”

    Yeah, man, we see. Your knockoffs did it first and you want everybody to know it. Got it loud and clear. 
    Er. No.

    If I wanted that I would have said it last week. If I wanted that, I would have said much more. Much, much more. 

    I suggest you reflect on what you are saying and how you are saying it. 

    Perhaps you should reflect on how disliked you are...

    This x1000. If a single person points something out about another poster then it could just be a difference of opinion. When numerous people come to the same conclusion, then perhaps the person who’s being called out needs to look at why they’re being singled out.

    It it looks like a duck, waddles like a duck and quacks like a duck then it’s very likely a duck.

    Avon B7 - you are a troll, plain and simple.
    radarthekatStrangeDayswatto_cobra
  • Reply 102 of 187
    nunzy said:
    Apple now has the best cameras ever made. Professional photographers will not need anything else.

    I defy anybody to see any differences unless the photo is blow up to billboard size.
    No, not the case at all. Sure, amateurs may not need anything else, but the iPhone camera does not substitute for a ‘real’ camera. 

    The iPhone has only two lenses, each with a fixed aperture and focal length. The portrait mode feature that blurs the background to create what they like to call “bokeh,” is entirely simulated. It is essentially an automated photoshop feature. Although it is generally nicely done, you don’t have to enlarge the picture in many cases to see where the simulated effect hasn’t quite found the edges of the subject to separate it from the background that’s blurred after the fact. I can see the difference on my phone’s screen. No billboard needed. 

    The actual bokeh effect is achieved with ‘real’ cameras where you (or the onboard computer) control focus, aperture, and shutter speed according to the laws of physics and record the result on the camera’s sensor (or film, if you’re really old-school). The iPhone’s fixed focal length, fixed aperture lenses simply can’t do that. It is physically impossible. Actually that’s not entirely true. They could be set up to do that, but then they couldn’t not do that, to go for the double negative. It’s the fixed aspect of the lenses that make that the case.  

    Mind you, the iPhone’s cameras are better than most consumer grade amateur gear that’s been out there, but they’re no match for a good Nikon, Olympus, Canon, etc. camera with interchangeable lenses. And they’re certainly no Hasselblad. 
    radarthekatspheric
  • Reply 103 of 187
    SoliSoli Posts: 8,977member
    AppleZulu said:
    nunzy said:
    Apple now has the best cameras ever made. Professional photographers will not need anything else.

    I defy anybody to see any differences unless the photo is blow up to billboard size.
    ...the iPhone camera does not substitute for a ‘real’ camera. 
    The iPhone not being as good as other cameras does not make it imaginary or fake.
    radarthekatsphericwatto_cobra
  • Reply 104 of 187
    gatorguygatorguy Posts: 20,755member
    avon b7 said:
    avon b7 said:
    tmay said:
    avon b7 said:
    tmay said:
    avon b7 said:
    tmay said:
    avon b7 said:
    tmay said:
    avon b7 said:
    melgross said:

    avon b7 said:
    tmay said:
    .
    avon b7 said:
    Is there a difference between the camera mode you are describing and what Huawei phones have done for years?

    The reason I ask is that when they announced the feature I automatically assumed it would be different but what you describe is practically identical to how Huawei phones have operated since the P9. I thought it was already possible on Apple's dual lens phones.

    ....

    Or is not so much what it does as how it does it?
    Huawei? Who cares. Do major US network carriers even carry that pos?
    So you assume that rest of the world does not matter, huh? Arrogance like that does not pay of. Huiwaei dominates markets elswhere and perhaps instead of being arrogant you may need reality check that those phones as well as Samsung dominate in Europe and Apple iPhone is nowhere near. You should star caring because on competitive markets other vendors build solutions that Apple follows (not leads) and some brainwash seems to be out there that Apple is the only innovator. The fact is that Apple came with few features 9(like biometrics) later than Samsung for example, but Samsung never claimed it was copied by Apple so you assume that Apple was first. Instead of reading only Apple news maye be you should start tracking general technology state. You would be surprized what you did not know and assumed that only one vendor innovates.

    Yes we do care about Huwaei, Samsung, LG and Google. Some pople did not review some features and thise dominant on other markets companies already have some stuff that nobody seems here to have a clue about. On top of that some of it is far more practical. Some even say that Pixel 2 photo quality is now top on the market - not Apple iPhones. there will be those now claimin that Aperture mode is so innovative. Well on phones it alreay exist, and it was used on SLR cameras (I used it for years) for decades now. It just got squeezed into smaller package - nothing else.
    I'll post this link;

    https://www.ped30.com/2018/09/20/counterpoint-regions-apple-iphone/

    Apple doesn't have an iPhone under $449, though there may be lower cost models manufacturer for India.

    Seriously, do you think that this data makes Apple look bad?

    Sure, Apple doesn't cater at all to the under $400 market, where the bulk of Huawei's sales are, but I will state that it is likely that Apple will sell a similar number of XS and XS Max units World Wide by the end of this month, as Huawei has sold of the P20 series since its March release. The P20 Pro isn't a great seller, although Avon B7 has tried to portray it as a great success, with pretty flakey data. Maybe it is. Nonetheless, is a likelihood that Apple will sell 80 to 85 million iPhones next quarter, and about 70% of those, will be the X models.

    Being first with niche features is a fool's game, but appropriate for the Android OS device market, where any differentiation at all is a huge marketing necessity. That's likely why we see mostly unbaked innovation in these devices first. Apple, works off of internal roadmap, so these companies, and their customers, as guinea pigs for new features is actually savvy.

    Flakey data?

    Niche features?

    The data on P20 Series sales came straight from Huawei. Official numbers. It has been a massive success.

    Aperture Mode is one of the main features on Huawei phones, not a niche feature. Even on my little Honor 10.

    I didn't ask this question last week simply because I thought the feature was different. Seeing the description here, and noting that the process is virtually identical, prompted me to ask.

    There is no need to go on the defensive.
    Well, as we all know, Huawei cheats on testing, something I notice you failed to respond to when I posted that to you in a different thread. I wouldn’t be surprised if they lie about other things too. Whether you like it or not, Chinese companies are known to be, shall we say, flexible, in their company reports. A tiny picture also says little about the quality of the effect, as most everything looks good in a small size. At any rate, we need a couple of dozen images of different types to get an idea as to how well these features work overall, because one well selected image might be great, while most others may be crap.

    aperture mode has to prove itself. Samsung also has a variable aperture, but images using it are no better than those not using it. We’ve also seen a coup,e of phones using two cameras, one taking luminance images, and the other using color images. Supposedly, much better images result. And indeed, the marketing images shown did look pretty good. But when the phones were out in the “wild”, it turned out that the images were pretty bad. These gimmicks rarely work.

    and yes, that evaluation goes for all phones.
    I responded to the Huawei benchmark (and the DSLR) news the very first time it was mentioned here. I responded clearly and openly and was critical of the behaviour. You missed it, it seems.

    You will forgive me for simply passing on the subsequent comments which are simply cheap shots aimed at the company - as a whole - because those comments are simply absurd, as the company as a whole is massive and far removed from the areas involved.

    So when people start questioning the likes of HiSilicon, or the results of the imaging division or battery research - as you yourself did not long ago - it is frankly absurd too. I provide links. With all due respect you have simply limited yourself to telling people they are wrong but without offering any supporting information beyond your own knowledge. Would you accept it if I did the same?

    Huawei is a private company but independently audited just like other companies. There is zero reason to question results.

    On the subject at hand, you are now diverging from the feature itself into the quality if the feature. I have no issue with that. It is a valid comment and I agree - to a degree - but that has nothing to do with my point, which is a completely different.

    And if this feature really hasn't existed on an iPhone until now, the quality is irrevelant. Even just 'acceptable' results would be good enough (even if purely hit and miss), if the other option was not having the feature at all.
    "Huawei is a private company but independently audited just like other companies." There is zero reason to question results." I would feel free to question the results of U.S. company audits, so, no, your statement isn't reassuring.

    Huawei ultimately answers to the authoritarian Chinese government, so, yeah, plenty of reasons to question all things Huawei. 

    As for Apple's Portrait Mode blur feature,

    https://www.businessinsider.com/apple-iphone-portrait-mode-explained-2017-10

    "But Apple was the first to popularize portrait mode, and now offers it on the iPhone 7 Plus, iPhone 8 Plus, and iPhone X."

    Seems like you would have been aware of this feature that was released with the iPhone 7 Plus, that requires dual lenses, but you brought it up so that you could post your Huawei talking points. It's been improved in iOS 12, and has migrated to the single lens XR using focus points to determine depth. Whether Apple was first with faux bokeh is less important than that it was delivered fully baked when Apple popularized it with the iPhone 7.

    How's that Mate 20 doing?.

    By the time Huawei releases it, Apple will already have shipped 15 million iPhone's XS/XR, about the same number of units that that you state Huawei will sell in total for the P20 series. Seems like Huawei has a hill to climb to even meet Apple's unit sales this year.

    Maybe next year.
    Thanks for at least providing an answer.

    As for Portrait mode. Your quote uses the word 'popularize', probably because Huawei had dual cameras months before Apple with its very own portrait mode. Apple's stayed in beta for a year. Not fully baked!

    However, I appreciate the answer all the same. But is this article on 'Portait Mode' or something new regarding depth of field in a wider perspective?

    That was part of my doubt. From the article:

    "We've been dying to check out the new controllable aperture feature exclusive to these new phones"

    That doesn't sound like an existing feature.

    That's why I brought it up. It has nothing to do with 'Huawei talking points'.

    As for the Mate 20, who knows!? LOL.

    We'll have to wait and see.


    Controllable synthetic aperture using a f/stop slider is the new feature.

    If this had nothing to do with Huawei talking points, then why even bring it up? It's obvious that the improvements in usability and IQ for the feature are independent of "who came first", which was the point of your post. More to the point, it would have been exceedingly easy to so a bit of research such that you didn't come off as "partisan".

    You said "wait and see" about the X, and state it was an anniversary model, and that it wasn't selling well, all of which were false. I have stated the it was the new design, which is true, that it was Apple's most successful single model, which is also true. It looks obvious that Apple has deprecated TouchID, and that the iPhone 8's will be the last current models with that feature, as well as the "chin".

    So "wait and see" is just your standard denier of Apple success with the iPhone X. 

    The Mate 20 is going to have fair winds for only a short time in the Android OS device market, then competition will hit from Samsung with a reported four S10 models, and the other Android OS device makers, then you will be back with, "but wait until the P30 comes out!". The Kirin 980 will be up against the Samsung Exynos 9880 and the Qualcomm 855, both at 7nm.
    Why bring it up?

    Why not read why I even bothered to explain exactly why I asked about this in the first place? I've repeated it twice in this thread already!

    I did my 'research' and came up blank. It is clear that posters here didn't know either, hence the lack of answers. Probably because it is easy to confuse the two features.

    And to add insult to injury, now, you throw in:

    "Controllable synthetic aperture using a f/stop slider is the new feature"

    Why didn't you say that in your first reply instead of going into a rant on Huawei and mentioning Portrait Mode? 

    It at least, finally, provides a decent answer, so thanks for that.

    As for the rest, you are re-hashing the same false claims as you always do and wanting to take this far off topic. Open up a new thread if you wish and I will correct all of your claims. I will put you straight on every point. Literally. Quotes and all. We will see what I really said and in what context and if your claims are true.
    www.youtube.com/watch?time_continue=59&v=_g8aLVGXyc0

    Depth Control is explained in the video, among other things;

    www.youtube.com/watch?time_continue=59&v=_g8aLVGXyc0

    Perhaps you might have first searched Apple for marketing information on the iPhone X?

    "Coming up blank" isn't really a satisfactory answer to a notably easy search.

    From the Apple XS page, scrolling about half way down;

    Intelligent A12 Bionic.

     

    This is the smartest, most powerful chip in a smartphone, with our next-generation Neural Engine. For amazing augmented reality experiences. Incredible portraits with Depth Control. And speed and fluidity in everything you do.


    So why the diversion into your portrait mode answer? Why didn't you go straight to the point if you had the answer?


    I knew how it operated as I had seen it during the event stream, it's part of Portrait Mode and will be available as an update this fall, but didn't know what it was called, and as it requires hardware of the new models; my iPhone 7 doesn't support it. So, with the exception that the extra functionality is called Depth Control, I gave you all of the information previously. 

    I looked that up after I posted, but doesn't change the fact that you didn't even attempt to figure that out yourself, and still haven't, I would guess. 

    So now, you feel entitled to blame me, because you are either too inept to do a simple search to figure it out yourself, or too lazy, or you're afraid of all things Apple.

    Or, he was never interested in the answer and is only interested in dropping FUD pellets everywhere he goes. 
    Or, it was exactly as I said it was!

    The simplest conclusion is the one you can't bring yourself to see because in reality you passed judgement from the outset.

    Your over the top reactions and accusations have laid bare your inability to see past your own obsessions. So much that you cannot see a simple question for what it is. I even made it clear why I asked it in the first place.

    The easy answer would have been that this feature is new to iPhone but isn't new. That's all that was necessary.

    In the end there is nothing new in this feature. I really thought there would be, and, as I said, I was taking for granted that the feature (as explained in the article) was already available on all dual camera iPhones. Available since the get go.

    I am surprised, frankly. I thought there was more to the feature itself. I didn't see the presentation by the way, but the take away from many replies in this thread is the ultra defensive attitude of some people.
    “I’m just asking a question! See!”

    Yeah, man, we see. Your knockoffs did it first and you want everybody to know it. Got it loud and clear. 
    Er. No.

    If I wanted that I would have said it last week. If I wanted that, I would have said much more. Much, much more. 

    I suggest you reflect on what you are saying and how you are saying it. 




    your talking points center around how your chinese knockoff (who's name I can't even pronounce in my head)
    WHA-way. The other Chinese OEM no one knows how to pronounce is Xiaomi... SHOW-me. (Actually more like in SHOWer but whatever)
    edited September 2018 radarthekat
  • Reply 105 of 187
    Soli said:
    AppleZulu said:
    nunzy said:
    Apple now has the best cameras ever made. Professional photographers will not need anything else.

    I defy anybody to see any differences unless the photo is blow up to billboard size.
    ...the iPhone camera does not substitute for a ‘real’ camera. 
    The iPhone not being as good as other cameras does not make it imaginary or fake.
    That’s why I put the word real in quotes, sparky. Didn’t want to get into an argument over the semantics of the word professional or DSLR or mirrorless DSLR or whatever. But then you had to go for the semantic argument over the word real. Congratulations!
  • Reply 106 of 187
    SoliSoli Posts: 8,977member
    AppleZulu said:
    Soli said:
    AppleZulu said:
    nunzy said:
    Apple now has the best cameras ever made. Professional photographers will not need anything else.

    I defy anybody to see any differences unless the photo is blow up to billboard size.
    ...the iPhone camera does not substitute for a ‘real’ camera. 
    The iPhone not being as good as other cameras does not make it imaginary or fake.
    That’s why I put the word real in quotes, sparky. Didn’t want to get into an argument over the semantics of the word professional or DSLR or mirrorless DSLR or whatever. But then you had to go for the semantic argument over the word real. Congratulations!
    Fine. The iPhone not being as good as other cameras does not make it "imaginary" or "fake."
    watto_cobra
  • Reply 107 of 187
    nhtnht Posts: 4,488member
    gatorguy said:
    avon b7 said:
    avon b7 said:
    tmay said:
    avon b7 said:
    tmay said:
    avon b7 said:
    tmay said:
    avon b7 said:
    tmay said:
    avon b7 said:
    melgross said:

    avon b7 said:
    tmay said:
    .
    avon b7 said:
    Is there a difference between the camera mode you are describing and what Huawei phones have done for years?

    The reason I ask is that when they announced the feature I automatically assumed it would be different but what you describe is practically identical to how Huawei phones have operated since the P9. I thought it was already possible on Apple's dual lens phones.

    ....

    Or is not so much what it does as how it does it?
    Huawei? Who cares. Do major US network carriers even carry that pos?
    So you assume that rest of the world does not matter, huh? Arrogance like that does not pay of. Huiwaei dominates markets elswhere and perhaps instead of being arrogant you may need reality check that those phones as well as Samsung dominate in Europe and Apple iPhone is nowhere near. You should star caring because on competitive markets other vendors build solutions that Apple follows (not leads) and some brainwash seems to be out there that Apple is the only innovator. The fact is that Apple came with few features 9(like biometrics) later than Samsung for example, but Samsung never claimed it was copied by Apple so you assume that Apple was first. Instead of reading only Apple news maye be you should start tracking general technology state. You would be surprized what you did not know and assumed that only one vendor innovates.

    Yes we do care about Huwaei, Samsung, LG and Google. Some pople did not review some features and thise dominant on other markets companies already have some stuff that nobody seems here to have a clue about. On top of that some of it is far more practical. Some even say that Pixel 2 photo quality is now top on the market - not Apple iPhones. there will be those now claimin that Aperture mode is so innovative. Well on phones it alreay exist, and it was used on SLR cameras (I used it for years) for decades now. It just got squeezed into smaller package - nothing else.
    I'll post this link;

    https://www.ped30.com/2018/09/20/counterpoint-regions-apple-iphone/

    Apple doesn't have an iPhone under $449, though there may be lower cost models manufacturer for India.

    Seriously, do you think that this data makes Apple look bad?

    Sure, Apple doesn't cater at all to the under $400 market, where the bulk of Huawei's sales are, but I will state that it is likely that Apple will sell a similar number of XS and XS Max units World Wide by the end of this month, as Huawei has sold of the P20 series since its March release. The P20 Pro isn't a great seller, although Avon B7 has tried to portray it as a great success, with pretty flakey data. Maybe it is. Nonetheless, is a likelihood that Apple will sell 80 to 85 million iPhones next quarter, and about 70% of those, will be the X models.

    Being first with niche features is a fool's game, but appropriate for the Android OS device market, where any differentiation at all is a huge marketing necessity. That's likely why we see mostly unbaked innovation in these devices first. Apple, works off of internal roadmap, so these companies, and their customers, as guinea pigs for new features is actually savvy.

    Flakey data?

    Niche features?

    The data on P20 Series sales came straight from Huawei. Official numbers. It has been a massive success.

    Aperture Mode is one of the main features on Huawei phones, not a niche feature. Even on my little Honor 10.

    I didn't ask this question last week simply because I thought the feature was different. Seeing the description here, and noting that the process is virtually identical, prompted me to ask.

    There is no need to go on the defensive.
    Well, as we all know, Huawei cheats on testing, something I notice you failed to respond to when I posted that to you in a different thread. I wouldn’t be surprised if they lie about other things too. Whether you like it or not, Chinese companies are known to be, shall we say, flexible, in their company reports. A tiny picture also says little about the quality of the effect, as most everything looks good in a small size. At any rate, we need a couple of dozen images of different types to get an idea as to how well these features work overall, because one well selected image might be great, while most others may be crap.

    aperture mode has to prove itself. Samsung also has a variable aperture, but images using it are no better than those not using it. We’ve also seen a coup,e of phones using two cameras, one taking luminance images, and the other using color images. Supposedly, much better images result. And indeed, the marketing images shown did look pretty good. But when the phones were out in the “wild”, it turned out that the images were pretty bad. These gimmicks rarely work.

    and yes, that evaluation goes for all phones.
    I responded to the Huawei benchmark (and the DSLR) news the very first time it was mentioned here. I responded clearly and openly and was critical of the behaviour. You missed it, it seems.

    You will forgive me for simply passing on the subsequent comments which are simply cheap shots aimed at the company - as a whole - because those comments are simply absurd, as the company as a whole is massive and far removed from the areas involved.

    So when people start questioning the likes of HiSilicon, or the results of the imaging division or battery research - as you yourself did not long ago - it is frankly absurd too. I provide links. With all due respect you have simply limited yourself to telling people they are wrong but without offering any supporting information beyond your own knowledge. Would you accept it if I did the same?

    Huawei is a private company but independently audited just like other companies. There is zero reason to question results.

    On the subject at hand, you are now diverging from the feature itself into the quality if the feature. I have no issue with that. It is a valid comment and I agree - to a degree - but that has nothing to do with my point, which is a completely different.

    And if this feature really hasn't existed on an iPhone until now, the quality is irrevelant. Even just 'acceptable' results would be good enough (even if purely hit and miss), if the other option was not having the feature at all.
    "Huawei is a private company but independently audited just like other companies." There is zero reason to question results." I would feel free to question the results of U.S. company audits, so, no, your statement isn't reassuring.

    Huawei ultimately answers to the authoritarian Chinese government, so, yeah, plenty of reasons to question all things Huawei. 

    As for Apple's Portrait Mode blur feature,

    https://www.businessinsider.com/apple-iphone-portrait-mode-explained-2017-10

    "But Apple was the first to popularize portrait mode, and now offers it on the iPhone 7 Plus, iPhone 8 Plus, and iPhone X."

    Seems like you would have been aware of this feature that was released with the iPhone 7 Plus, that requires dual lenses, but you brought it up so that you could post your Huawei talking points. It's been improved in iOS 12, and has migrated to the single lens XR using focus points to determine depth. Whether Apple was first with faux bokeh is less important than that it was delivered fully baked when Apple popularized it with the iPhone 7.

    How's that Mate 20 doing?.

    By the time Huawei releases it, Apple will already have shipped 15 million iPhone's XS/XR, about the same number of units that that you state Huawei will sell in total for the P20 series. Seems like Huawei has a hill to climb to even meet Apple's unit sales this year.

    Maybe next year.
    Thanks for at least providing an answer.

    As for Portrait mode. Your quote uses the word 'popularize', probably because Huawei had dual cameras months before Apple with its very own portrait mode. Apple's stayed in beta for a year. Not fully baked!

    However, I appreciate the answer all the same. But is this article on 'Portait Mode' or something new regarding depth of field in a wider perspective?

    That was part of my doubt. From the article:

    "We've been dying to check out the new controllable aperture feature exclusive to these new phones"

    That doesn't sound like an existing feature.

    That's why I brought it up. It has nothing to do with 'Huawei talking points'.

    As for the Mate 20, who knows!? LOL.

    We'll have to wait and see.


    Controllable synthetic aperture using a f/stop slider is the new feature.

    If this had nothing to do with Huawei talking points, then why even bring it up? It's obvious that the improvements in usability and IQ for the feature are independent of "who came first", which was the point of your post. More to the point, it would have been exceedingly easy to so a bit of research such that you didn't come off as "partisan".

    You said "wait and see" about the X, and state it was an anniversary model, and that it wasn't selling well, all of which were false. I have stated the it was the new design, which is true, that it was Apple's most successful single model, which is also true. It looks obvious that Apple has deprecated TouchID, and that the iPhone 8's will be the last current models with that feature, as well as the "chin".

    So "wait and see" is just your standard denier of Apple success with the iPhone X. 

    The Mate 20 is going to have fair winds for only a short time in the Android OS device market, then competition will hit from Samsung with a reported four S10 models, and the other Android OS device makers, then you will be back with, "but wait until the P30 comes out!". The Kirin 980 will be up against the Samsung Exynos 9880 and the Qualcomm 855, both at 7nm.
    Why bring it up?

    Why not read why I even bothered to explain exactly why I asked about this in the first place? I've repeated it twice in this thread already!

    I did my 'research' and came up blank. It is clear that posters here didn't know either, hence the lack of answers. Probably because it is easy to confuse the two features.

    And to add insult to injury, now, you throw in:

    "Controllable synthetic aperture using a f/stop slider is the new feature"

    Why didn't you say that in your first reply instead of going into a rant on Huawei and mentioning Portrait Mode? 

    It at least, finally, provides a decent answer, so thanks for that.

    As for the rest, you are re-hashing the same false claims as you always do and wanting to take this far off topic. Open up a new thread if you wish and I will correct all of your claims. I will put you straight on every point. Literally. Quotes and all. We will see what I really said and in what context and if your claims are true.
    www.youtube.com/watch?time_continue=59&v=_g8aLVGXyc0

    Depth Control is explained in the video, among other things;

    www.youtube.com/watch?time_continue=59&v=_g8aLVGXyc0

    Perhaps you might have first searched Apple for marketing information on the iPhone X?

    "Coming up blank" isn't really a satisfactory answer to a notably easy search.

    From the Apple XS page, scrolling about half way down;

    Intelligent A12 Bionic.

     

    This is the smartest, most powerful chip in a smartphone, with our next-generation Neural Engine. For amazing augmented reality experiences. Incredible portraits with Depth Control. And speed and fluidity in everything you do.


    So why the diversion into your portrait mode answer? Why didn't you go straight to the point if you had the answer?


    I knew how it operated as I had seen it during the event stream, it's part of Portrait Mode and will be available as an update this fall, but didn't know what it was called, and as it requires hardware of the new models; my iPhone 7 doesn't support it. So, with the exception that the extra functionality is called Depth Control, I gave you all of the information previously. 

    I looked that up after I posted, but doesn't change the fact that you didn't even attempt to figure that out yourself, and still haven't, I would guess. 

    So now, you feel entitled to blame me, because you are either too inept to do a simple search to figure it out yourself, or too lazy, or you're afraid of all things Apple.

    Or, he was never interested in the answer and is only interested in dropping FUD pellets everywhere he goes. 
    Or, it was exactly as I said it was!

    The simplest conclusion is the one you can't bring yourself to see because in reality you passed judgement from the outset.

    Your over the top reactions and accusations have laid bare your inability to see past your own obsessions. So much that you cannot see a simple question for what it is. I even made it clear why I asked it in the first place.

    The easy answer would have been that this feature is new to iPhone but isn't new. That's all that was necessary.

    In the end there is nothing new in this feature. I really thought there would be, and, as I said, I was taking for granted that the feature (as explained in the article) was already available on all dual camera iPhones. Available since the get go.

    I am surprised, frankly. I thought there was more to the feature itself. I didn't see the presentation by the way, but the take away from many replies in this thread is the ultra defensive attitude of some people.
    “I’m just asking a question! See!”

    Yeah, man, we see. Your knockoffs did it first and you want everybody to know it. Got it loud and clear. 
    Er. No.

    If I wanted that I would have said it last week. If I wanted that, I would have said much more. Much, much more. 

    I suggest you reflect on what you are saying and how you are saying it. 




    your talking points center around how your chinese knockoff (who's name I can't even pronounce in my head)
    WHA-way. The other Chinese OEM no one knows how to pronounce is Xiaomi... SHOW-me. (Actually more like in SHOWer but whatever)
    Xiao = small 
    Mi = Rice

    From Wikipedia:  listen

    More like "see-ow"
  • Reply 108 of 187
    tmaytmay Posts: 3,819member
    AppleZulu said:
    nunzy said:
    Apple now has the best cameras ever made. Professional photographers will not need anything else.

    I defy anybody to see any differences unless the photo is blow up to billboard size.
    No, not the case at all. Sure, amateurs may not need anything else, but the iPhone camera does not substitute for a ‘real’ camera. 

    The iPhone has only two lenses, each with a fixed aperture and focal length. The portrait mode feature that blurs the background to create what they like to call “bokeh,” is entirely simulated. It is essentially an automated photoshop feature. Although it is generally nicely done, you don’t have to enlarge the picture in many cases to see where the simulated effect hasn’t quite found the edges of the subject to separate it from the background that’s blurred after the fact. I can see the difference on my phone’s screen. No billboard needed. 

    The actual bokeh effect is achieved with ‘real’ cameras where you (or the onboard computer) control focus, aperture, and shutter speed according to the laws of physics and record the result on the camera’s sensor (or film, if you’re really old-school). The iPhone’s fixed focal length, fixed aperture lenses simply can’t do that. It is physically impossible. Actually that’s not entirely true. They could be set up to do that, but then they couldn’t not do that, to go for the double negative. It’s the fixed aspect of the lenses that make that the case.  

    Mind you, the iPhone’s cameras are better than most consumer grade amateur gear that’s been out there, but they’re no match for a good Nikon, Olympus, Canon, etc. camera with interchangeable lenses. And they’re certainly no Hasselblad. 
    "In photography, bokeh (/ˈboʊkeɪ/ BOH-kay) (Japanese: [boke]) is the aesthetic quality of the blur produced in the out-of-focus parts of an image produced by a lens. Bokeh has been defined as "the way the lens renders out-of-focus points of light".


    Seems to me that as aesthetic quality is both subjective and perceptual, albeit as you state based on complex parameters of the lens and aperture, using ML/AI to synthesize bokeh in a smartphone, is an effort worth making. Evolved imager/aperture/lens stacks for smartphones will surely be developed, and this can only improve that perceived bokeh.

    Personally, I wouldn't mind having a recent full frame mirrorless with ML/AI bokeh effect so that even kit lenses could provide reasonable bokeh, without the high cost of f/0.95 lenses with  9 curved aperture blades.

  • Reply 109 of 187
    Soli said:
    AppleZulu said:
    Soli said:
    AppleZulu said:
    nunzy said:
    Apple now has the best cameras ever made. Professional photographers will not need anything else.

    I defy anybody to see any differences unless the photo is blow up to billboard size.
    ...the iPhone camera does not substitute for a ‘real’ camera. 
    The iPhone not being as good as other cameras does not make it imaginary or fake.
    That’s why I put the word real in quotes, sparky. Didn’t want to get into an argument over the semantics of the word professional or DSLR or mirrorless DSLR or whatever. But then you had to go for the semantic argument over the word real. Congratulations!
    Fine. The iPhone not being as good as other cameras does not make it "imaginary" or "fake."
    I don’t even know what argument you’re trying to make. Well done!
  • Reply 110 of 187

    Damn, when I saw 100+ comments on this thread, I thought there'd be a nice discussion about the new phones. Pity it was entirely highjacked by Avon. He/ She is on my block list, but I still end up reading the shit!


    ericthehalfbeeStrangeDayswatto_cobra
  • Reply 111 of 187
    avon b7avon b7 Posts: 3,948member

    Damn, when I saw 100+ comments on this thread, I thought there'd be a nice discussion about the new phones. Pity it was entirely highjacked by Avon. He/ She is on my block list, but I still end up reading the shit!


    No. It got hijacked by the AI 'troll patrol'. Sad really, but there you go.

    If someone had given a simple answer to a simple question. It would have been quite literally two posts.

    Food for thought, eh?
    sphericgatorguy
  • Reply 112 of 187
    sphericspheric Posts: 1,767member

    Damn, when I saw 100+ comments on this thread, I thought there'd be a nice discussion about the new phones. Pity it was entirely highjacked by Avon. He/ She is on my block list, but I still end up reading the shit!


    It wasn't Avon that hijacked the thread or propelled it into an idiotic pissing match.
    gatorguyavon b7
  • Reply 113 of 187
    tmaytmay Posts: 3,819member
    spheric said:

    Damn, when I saw 100+ comments on this thread, I thought there'd be a nice discussion about the new phones. Pity it was entirely highjacked by Avon. He/ She is on my block list, but I still end up reading the shit!


    It wasn't Avon that hijacked the thread or propelled it into an idiotic pissing match.
    I'll happily take the heat for "hijacking" the thread"

    His was third post with this;

    "Is there a difference between the camera mode you are describing and what Huawei phones have done for years?

    The reason I ask is that when they announced the feature I automatically assumed it would be different but what you describe is practically identical to how Huawei phones have operated since the P9. I thought it was already possible on Apple's dual lens phones."

    Tired of his antics.

    All Avon B7 had to do was a minute bit of research online to answer his own question, but of course, Huawei, Huawei, Huawei, all day long.
    StrangeDayswatto_cobra
  • Reply 114 of 187
    avon b7 said:

    Damn, when I saw 100+ comments on this thread, I thought there'd be a nice discussion about the new phones. Pity it was entirely highjacked by Avon. He/ She is on my block list, but I still end up reading the shit!


    No. It got hijacked by the AI 'troll patrol'. Sad really, but there you go.

    If someone had given a simple answer to a simple question. It would have been quite literally two posts.

    Food for thought, eh?

    spheric said:

    Damn, when I saw 100+ comments on this thread, I thought there'd be a nice discussion about the new phones. Pity it was entirely highjacked by Avon. He/ She is on my block list, but I still end up reading the shit!


    It wasn't Avon that hijacked the thread or propelled it into an idiotic pissing match.

    Bullshit. Avon B7 has a long history of trolling/shilling. He deserves everything that comes his way.

    Troll patrol. So funny when the troll tries to play the victim. You’re not fooling anyone here at AI. More like truth patrol. So sorry your lies have been getting exposed for over a year now.
    StrangeDayswatto_cobra
  • Reply 115 of 187
    sphericspheric Posts: 1,767member
    tmay said:
    spheric said:

    Damn, when I saw 100+ comments on this thread, I thought there'd be a nice discussion about the new phones. Pity it was entirely highjacked by Avon. He/ She is on my block list, but I still end up reading the shit!


    It wasn't Avon that hijacked the thread or propelled it into an idiotic pissing match.
    I'll happily take the heat for "hijacking" the thread"

    His was third post with this;

    "Is there a difference between the camera mode you are describing and what Huawei phones have done for years?

    The reason I ask is that when they announced the feature I automatically assumed it would be different but what you describe is practically identical to how Huawei phones have operated since the P9. I thought it was already possible on Apple's dual lens phones."

    Tired of his antics.

    All Avon B7 had to do was a minute bit of research online to answer his own question, but of course, Huawei, Huawei, Huawei, all day long.
    WTF is wrong with asking whether there is a difference between this and another manufacturer’s tech, or expressing surprise that this wasn’t already possible? 

    Seriously, dude: you’re making discussion completely impossible. 

    I have no idea whether anybody has answered his question, because if yes, the reply was buried in a deluge of completely off-topic personal bullshit and insecurities. 

    I find the question interesting. 

    And would it have killed you to do a minute bit of research online to contribute to discussion, rather than Apple, Apple, Troll, Troll all day long?
    edited September 2018 gatorguyavon b7
  • Reply 116 of 187
    gatorguygatorguy Posts: 20,755member
    *sigh* 
    Another thread that's lost all value, descending into a troll fest. Nothing of value left so you've succeeded, all the adults give up and the answer to the simple question that started it all is lost somewhere in there if it was ever answered in the first place. 

    You three, and you know who you are, have fun. 
    edited September 2018
  • Reply 117 of 187
    tmaytmay Posts: 3,819member
    spheric said:
    tmay said:
    spheric said:

    Damn, when I saw 100+ comments on this thread, I thought there'd be a nice discussion about the new phones. Pity it was entirely highjacked by Avon. He/ She is on my block list, but I still end up reading the shit!


    It wasn't Avon that hijacked the thread or propelled it into an idiotic pissing match.
    I'll happily take the heat for "hijacking" the thread"

    His was third post with this;

    "Is there a difference between the camera mode you are describing and what Huawei phones have done for years?

    The reason I ask is that when they announced the feature I automatically assumed it would be different but what you describe is practically identical to how Huawei phones have operated since the P9. I thought it was already possible on Apple's dual lens phones."

    Tired of his antics.

    All Avon B7 had to do was a minute bit of research online to answer his own question, but of course, Huawei, Huawei, Huawei, all day long.
    WTF is wrong with asking whether there is a difference between this and another manufacturer’s tech, or expressing surprise that this wasn’t already possible? 

    Seriously, dude: you’re making discussion completely impossible. 

    I have no idea whether anybody has answered his question, because if yes, the reply was buried in a deluge of completely off-topic personal bullshit and insecurities. 

    I find the question interesting. 

    And would it have killed you to do a minute bit of research online to contribute to discussion, rather than Apple, Apple, Troll, Troll all day long?
    Step aside Butch; (hat tip to Marseilles in Pulp Fiction)

    I was the poster that answered his question first, then got chewed out by Avon B7 for updating with the name of the feature, Depth Control, which is the new addition to Portrait Mode. How entitled does someone have to be to do that?

    So, yeah, I'll take the blame.

    Easy to check what I have stated; just look for my comments in the thread.

    I've attempted to be measured in my responses, but you can decide that.
    watto_cobra
  • Reply 118 of 187
    k2kwk2kw Posts: 1,757member
    Bebe said:
    seankill said:
    Badass phone but for $1,100, it should be 128GB and include a 12/18W charger. The latter is a complete joke. 
    Agree.

    I went to my local apple store to buy the 64GB CS Max as it is good enough for as far as capacity goes and they were sold outThe next size is 256GB for extra $150. Ugh!  Oh well, I might just get the 256GB if I can’t wait for the 64GB. 
    Yes, but this cheapness is why part of why Apple is a $1Trillion company.  The squezze every dollar of profit out of each product.
  • Reply 119 of 187
    k2kwk2kw Posts: 1,757member

    Natko said:

    Speaker grill holes are not simmetrical on the bottom. That is unacceptable for a device that is branded as a piece of art and a jewelry not to mention priced as one... And all in the name of the antenna line, not even headphone jack as with pre-iPhone 7 design. I don’t know what’s going on, but Jony Ive obviously lost it. They are having attention to detail similar to Samsung nowadays. That’s all right, but then they should have Samsung’s attention to price as well.. :/

    Samsung also charges about a grand for a high end flagship. 
    TheVerge said that the main camera sensor is from Samsung.   Has anyone heard that from anyone else?    Was there a TearDown.
  • Reply 120 of 187
    chasmchasm Posts: 1,597member
    avon b7 said:
    Is there a difference between the camera mode you are describing and what Huawei phones have done for years?

    The reason I ask is that when they announced the feature I automatically assumed it would be different but what you describe is practically identical to how Huawei phones have operated since the P9. I thought it was already possible on Apple's dual lens phones.



    Or is not so much what it does as how it does it?
    There is one important difference: the Apple phone doesn't send your photos and everything else you do on it back to the Chinese government.
    tmaySoliwatto_cobra
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