Hands on: Apple's iPhone XS and XS Max are gorgeous, and a boon for photographers

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Comments

  • Reply 61 of 187
    avon b7 said:
    tmay said:
    avon b7 said:
    tmay said:
    .
    avon b7 said:
    Is there a difference between the camera mode you are describing and what Huawei phones have done for years?

    The reason I ask is that when they announced the feature I automatically assumed it would be different but what you describe is practically identical to how Huawei phones have operated since the P9. I thought it was already possible on Apple's dual lens phones.

    ....

    Or is not so much what it does as how it does it?
    Huawei? Who cares. Do major US network carriers even carry that pos?
    So you assume that rest of the world does not matter, huh? Arrogance like that does not pay of. Huiwaei dominates markets elswhere and perhaps instead of being arrogant you may need reality check that those phones as well as Samsung dominate in Europe and Apple iPhone is nowhere near. You should star caring because on competitive markets other vendors build solutions that Apple follows (not leads) and some brainwash seems to be out there that Apple is the only innovator. The fact is that Apple came with few features 9(like biometrics) later than Samsung for example, but Samsung never claimed it was copied by Apple so you assume that Apple was first. Instead of reading only Apple news maye be you should start tracking general technology state. You would be surprized what you did not know and assumed that only one vendor innovates.

    Yes we do care about Huwaei, Samsung, LG and Google. Some pople did not review some features and thise dominant on other markets companies already have some stuff that nobody seems here to have a clue about. On top of that some of it is far more practical. Some even say that Pixel 2 photo quality is now top on the market - not Apple iPhones. there will be those now claimin that Aperture mode is so innovative. Well on phones it alreay exist, and it was used on SLR cameras (I used it for years) for decades now. It just got squeezed into smaller package - nothing else.
    I'll post this link;

    https://www.ped30.com/2018/09/20/counterpoint-regions-apple-iphone/

    Apple doesn't have an iPhone under $449, though there may be lower cost models manufacturer for India.

    Seriously, do you think that this data makes Apple look bad?

    Sure, Apple doesn't cater at all to the under $400 market, where the bulk of Huawei's sales are, but I will state that it is likely that Apple will sell a similar number of XS and XS Max units World Wide by the end of this month, as Huawei has sold of the P20 series since its March release. The P20 Pro isn't a great seller, although Avon B7 has tried to portray it as a great success, with pretty flakey data. Maybe it is. Nonetheless, is a likelihood that Apple will sell 80 to 85 million iPhones next quarter, and about 70% of those, will be the X models.

    Being first with niche features is a fool's game, but appropriate for the Android OS device market, where any differentiation at all is a huge marketing necessity. That's likely why we see mostly unbaked innovation in these devices first. Apple, works off of internal roadmap, so these companies, and their customers, as guinea pigs for new features is actually savvy.

    Flakey data?

    Niche features?

    The data on P20 Series sales came straight from Huawei. Official numbers. It has been a massive success.

    Aperture Mode is one of the main features on Huawei phones, not a niche feature. Even on my little Honor 10.

    I didn't ask this question last week simply because I thought the feature was different. Seeing the description here, and noting that the process is virtually identical, prompted me to ask.

    There is no need to go on the defensive.

    From the same company that lies about benchmarks?

    So please enlighten us. How many P20 or P20 Pro phones has Huawei sold? Why say "massive success" without backing it up with hard data?


    Edited: Funny, I went over to Geekbench and don't see any benchmarks for the P20 or P20 Pro anywhere. Geekbench is useful for one other thing besides benchmarks. They require a minimum number of tests before a device gets listed in their charts. This is why you won't see a device in their charts until some time after it launches and enough people have tested it. The Note 9 is also another device that hasn't hit the charts yet, and like last year, I expect it will show up shortly. The iPhone XS and XS Max have both already shown up, meaning there have been a LOT of sales of these devices. And like in years past, the latest iPhone usually shows up a day or two after release.

    I'm REALLY curious why the P20/Pro aren't listed. My guess is it hasn't sold as well as Huawei claims.
    Huawei had four devices banned for cheating, so whatever data was there, is now gone.

    I know 3DMark removed four Huawei devices, but I haven't heard of anyone else removing them (such as Geekbench).
    I don't ever visit benchmarking sites so I can't comment on that but 3DMark will reinstate the results in the coming weeks it seems. Huawei will allow users to activate performance mode. Once that is in place, the results should be re-listed.

    So Huawei is going to label a specific mode and call it "Performance Mode"? Why not call it what it is: "Battery Hogging Overclocking Excess Heat Generating Can Only Run For A Couple Minutes Mode".
    tmaywatto_cobra
  • Reply 62 of 187
    tmaytmay Posts: 3,818member
    avon b7 said:
    melgross said:

    avon b7 said:
    tmay said:
    .
    avon b7 said:
    Is there a difference between the camera mode you are describing and what Huawei phones have done for years?

    The reason I ask is that when they announced the feature I automatically assumed it would be different but what you describe is practically identical to how Huawei phones have operated since the P9. I thought it was already possible on Apple's dual lens phones.

    ....

    Or is not so much what it does as how it does it?
    Huawei? Who cares. Do major US network carriers even carry that pos?
    So you assume that rest of the world does not matter, huh? Arrogance like that does not pay of. Huiwaei dominates markets elswhere and perhaps instead of being arrogant you may need reality check that those phones as well as Samsung dominate in Europe and Apple iPhone is nowhere near. You should star caring because on competitive markets other vendors build solutions that Apple follows (not leads) and some brainwash seems to be out there that Apple is the only innovator. The fact is that Apple came with few features 9(like biometrics) later than Samsung for example, but Samsung never claimed it was copied by Apple so you assume that Apple was first. Instead of reading only Apple news maye be you should start tracking general technology state. You would be surprized what you did not know and assumed that only one vendor innovates.

    Yes we do care about Huwaei, Samsung, LG and Google. Some pople did not review some features and thise dominant on other markets companies already have some stuff that nobody seems here to have a clue about. On top of that some of it is far more practical. Some even say that Pixel 2 photo quality is now top on the market - not Apple iPhones. there will be those now claimin that Aperture mode is so innovative. Well on phones it alreay exist, and it was used on SLR cameras (I used it for years) for decades now. It just got squeezed into smaller package - nothing else.
    I'll post this link;

    https://www.ped30.com/2018/09/20/counterpoint-regions-apple-iphone/

    Apple doesn't have an iPhone under $449, though there may be lower cost models manufacturer for India.

    Seriously, do you think that this data makes Apple look bad?

    Sure, Apple doesn't cater at all to the under $400 market, where the bulk of Huawei's sales are, but I will state that it is likely that Apple will sell a similar number of XS and XS Max units World Wide by the end of this month, as Huawei has sold of the P20 series since its March release. The P20 Pro isn't a great seller, although Avon B7 has tried to portray it as a great success, with pretty flakey data. Maybe it is. Nonetheless, is a likelihood that Apple will sell 80 to 85 million iPhones next quarter, and about 70% of those, will be the X models.

    Being first with niche features is a fool's game, but appropriate for the Android OS device market, where any differentiation at all is a huge marketing necessity. That's likely why we see mostly unbaked innovation in these devices first. Apple, works off of internal roadmap, so these companies, and their customers, as guinea pigs for new features is actually savvy.

    Flakey data?

    Niche features?

    The data on P20 Series sales came straight from Huawei. Official numbers. It has been a massive success.

    Aperture Mode is one of the main features on Huawei phones, not a niche feature. Even on my little Honor 10.

    I didn't ask this question last week simply because I thought the feature was different. Seeing the description here, and noting that the process is virtually identical, prompted me to ask.

    There is no need to go on the defensive.
    Well, as we all know, Huawei cheats on testing, something I notice you failed to respond to when I posted that to you in a different thread. I wouldn’t be surprised if they lie about other things too. Whether you like it or not, Chinese companies are known to be, shall we say, flexible, in their company reports. A tiny picture also says little about the quality of the effect, as most everything looks good in a small size. At any rate, we need a couple of dozen images of different types to get an idea as to how well these features work overall, because one well selected image might be great, while most others may be crap.

    aperture mode has to prove itself. Samsung also has a variable aperture, but images using it are no better than those not using it. We’ve also seen a coup,e of phones using two cameras, one taking luminance images, and the other using color images. Supposedly, much better images result. And indeed, the marketing images shown did look pretty good. But when the phones were out in the “wild”, it turned out that the images were pretty bad. These gimmicks rarely work.

    and yes, that evaluation goes for all phones.
    I responded to the Huawei benchmark (and the DSLR) news the very first time it was mentioned here. I responded clearly and openly and was critical of the behaviour. You missed it, it seems.

    You will forgive me for simply passing on the subsequent comments which are simply cheap shots aimed at the company - as a whole - because those comments are simply absurd, as the company as a whole is massive and far removed from the areas involved.

    So when people start questioning the likes of HiSilicon, or the results of the imaging division or battery research - as you yourself did not long ago - it is frankly absurd too. I provide links. With all due respect you have simply limited yourself to telling people they are wrong but without offering any supporting information beyond your own knowledge. Would you accept it if I did the same?

    Huawei is a private company but independently audited just like other companies. There is zero reason to question results.

    On the subject at hand, you are now diverging from the feature itself into the quality if the feature. I have no issue with that. It is a valid comment and I agree - to a degree - but that has nothing to do with my point, which is a completely different.

    And if this feature really hasn't existed on an iPhone until now, the quality is irrevelant. Even just 'acceptable' results would be good enough (even if purely hit and miss), if the other option was not having the feature at all.
    "Huawei is a private company but independently audited just like other companies." There is zero reason to question results." I would feel free to question the results of U.S. company audits, so, no, your statement isn't reassuring.

    Huawei ultimately answers to the authoritarian Chinese government, so, yeah, plenty of reasons to question all things Huawei. 

    As for Apple's Portrait Mode blur feature,

    https://www.businessinsider.com/apple-iphone-portrait-mode-explained-2017-10

    "But Apple was the first to popularize portrait mode, and now offers it on the iPhone 7 Plus, iPhone 8 Plus, and iPhone X."

    Seems like you would have been aware of this feature that was released with the iPhone 7 Plus, that requires dual lenses, but you brought it up so that you could post your Huawei talking points. It's been improved in iOS 12, and has migrated to the single lens XR using focus points to determine depth. Whether Apple was first with faux bokeh is less important than that it was delivered fully baked when Apple popularized it with the iPhone 7.

    How's that Mate 20 doing?.

    By the time Huawei releases it, Apple will already have shipped 15 million iPhone's XS/XR, about the same number of units that that you state Huawei will sell in total for the P20 series. Seems like Huawei has a hill to climb to even meet Apple's unit sales this year.

    Maybe next year.
    ericthehalfbeebb-15StrangeDayswatto_cobra
  • Reply 63 of 187
    saareksaarek Posts: 1,133member
    24 hours in after switching from an iPhone 6s Plus I’m happy overall, although a few things about the experience really bug me:

    Face ID is shite first thing in the morning, no lying on the pillow activation, even turning my head didn’t work, I had to sit-up a bit to make Face ID work..... I know, I know, first world problem.

    No percentage bar in the corner for the battery, you can only see that in the control view.... come on, I’ve got the XS Max, you could easily put damn numbers in that space!

    Cannot disable the stupid swipe indicator/home bar. Actually as annoying as the battery indicator, why the hell do I have to lose space in apps like safari for a stupid bar, I know how to swipe home already thank you very much!

    The weight, it feels a LOT heavier than my iPhone 6S Plus, I’ll have to look up the specs to know the true difference, but the Mafia could use this thing as a weapon and bludgeon some poor sod to death with it.
    baconstang
  • Reply 64 of 187
    saareksaarek Posts: 1,133member
    captmark said:
    So Apple sells me 2 brand NEW iPhone Xs and sends it with a USB-A cable!! When you sold me a new MBP in January 2017 you told me to switch EVERYTHING to USB-C. I did but you didn't!! Then $5500 for new computers and $3300 for 2 new phones and they can't be connected to each other until I give Apple another $20 for a cable?? USB-C should have been an option when I purchased my new iPhone!! Or am I expecting to much?
    Apple has always nickel and dimed their users for things that should’ve been in the box in the first place.

    It’s annoying, but just something that Apple has always done, and they’re unlikely to change.
  • Reply 65 of 187
    avon b7avon b7 Posts: 3,942member
    tmay said:
    avon b7 said:
    melgross said:

    avon b7 said:
    tmay said:
    .
    avon b7 said:
    Is there a difference between the camera mode you are describing and what Huawei phones have done for years?

    The reason I ask is that when they announced the feature I automatically assumed it would be different but what you describe is practically identical to how Huawei phones have operated since the P9. I thought it was already possible on Apple's dual lens phones.

    ....

    Or is not so much what it does as how it does it?
    Huawei? Who cares. Do major US network carriers even carry that pos?
    So you assume that rest of the world does not matter, huh? Arrogance like that does not pay of. Huiwaei dominates markets elswhere and perhaps instead of being arrogant you may need reality check that those phones as well as Samsung dominate in Europe and Apple iPhone is nowhere near. You should star caring because on competitive markets other vendors build solutions that Apple follows (not leads) and some brainwash seems to be out there that Apple is the only innovator. The fact is that Apple came with few features 9(like biometrics) later than Samsung for example, but Samsung never claimed it was copied by Apple so you assume that Apple was first. Instead of reading only Apple news maye be you should start tracking general technology state. You would be surprized what you did not know and assumed that only one vendor innovates.

    Yes we do care about Huwaei, Samsung, LG and Google. Some pople did not review some features and thise dominant on other markets companies already have some stuff that nobody seems here to have a clue about. On top of that some of it is far more practical. Some even say that Pixel 2 photo quality is now top on the market - not Apple iPhones. there will be those now claimin that Aperture mode is so innovative. Well on phones it alreay exist, and it was used on SLR cameras (I used it for years) for decades now. It just got squeezed into smaller package - nothing else.
    I'll post this link;

    https://www.ped30.com/2018/09/20/counterpoint-regions-apple-iphone/

    Apple doesn't have an iPhone under $449, though there may be lower cost models manufacturer for India.

    Seriously, do you think that this data makes Apple look bad?

    Sure, Apple doesn't cater at all to the under $400 market, where the bulk of Huawei's sales are, but I will state that it is likely that Apple will sell a similar number of XS and XS Max units World Wide by the end of this month, as Huawei has sold of the P20 series since its March release. The P20 Pro isn't a great seller, although Avon B7 has tried to portray it as a great success, with pretty flakey data. Maybe it is. Nonetheless, is a likelihood that Apple will sell 80 to 85 million iPhones next quarter, and about 70% of those, will be the X models.

    Being first with niche features is a fool's game, but appropriate for the Android OS device market, where any differentiation at all is a huge marketing necessity. That's likely why we see mostly unbaked innovation in these devices first. Apple, works off of internal roadmap, so these companies, and their customers, as guinea pigs for new features is actually savvy.

    Flakey data?

    Niche features?

    The data on P20 Series sales came straight from Huawei. Official numbers. It has been a massive success.

    Aperture Mode is one of the main features on Huawei phones, not a niche feature. Even on my little Honor 10.

    I didn't ask this question last week simply because I thought the feature was different. Seeing the description here, and noting that the process is virtually identical, prompted me to ask.

    There is no need to go on the defensive.
    Well, as we all know, Huawei cheats on testing, something I notice you failed to respond to when I posted that to you in a different thread. I wouldn’t be surprised if they lie about other things too. Whether you like it or not, Chinese companies are known to be, shall we say, flexible, in their company reports. A tiny picture also says little about the quality of the effect, as most everything looks good in a small size. At any rate, we need a couple of dozen images of different types to get an idea as to how well these features work overall, because one well selected image might be great, while most others may be crap.

    aperture mode has to prove itself. Samsung also has a variable aperture, but images using it are no better than those not using it. We’ve also seen a coup,e of phones using two cameras, one taking luminance images, and the other using color images. Supposedly, much better images result. And indeed, the marketing images shown did look pretty good. But when the phones were out in the “wild”, it turned out that the images were pretty bad. These gimmicks rarely work.

    and yes, that evaluation goes for all phones.
    I responded to the Huawei benchmark (and the DSLR) news the very first time it was mentioned here. I responded clearly and openly and was critical of the behaviour. You missed it, it seems.

    You will forgive me for simply passing on the subsequent comments which are simply cheap shots aimed at the company - as a whole - because those comments are simply absurd, as the company as a whole is massive and far removed from the areas involved.

    So when people start questioning the likes of HiSilicon, or the results of the imaging division or battery research - as you yourself did not long ago - it is frankly absurd too. I provide links. With all due respect you have simply limited yourself to telling people they are wrong but without offering any supporting information beyond your own knowledge. Would you accept it if I did the same?

    Huawei is a private company but independently audited just like other companies. There is zero reason to question results.

    On the subject at hand, you are now diverging from the feature itself into the quality if the feature. I have no issue with that. It is a valid comment and I agree - to a degree - but that has nothing to do with my point, which is a completely different.

    And if this feature really hasn't existed on an iPhone until now, the quality is irrevelant. Even just 'acceptable' results would be good enough (even if purely hit and miss), if the other option was not having the feature at all.
    "Huawei is a private company but independently audited just like other companies." There is zero reason to question results." I would feel free to question the results of U.S. company audits, so, no, your statement isn't reassuring.

    Huawei ultimately answers to the authoritarian Chinese government, so, yeah, plenty of reasons to question all things Huawei. 

    As for Apple's Portrait Mode blur feature,

    https://www.businessinsider.com/apple-iphone-portrait-mode-explained-2017-10

    "But Apple was the first to popularize portrait mode, and now offers it on the iPhone 7 Plus, iPhone 8 Plus, and iPhone X."

    Seems like you would have been aware of this feature that was released with the iPhone 7 Plus, that requires dual lenses, but you brought it up so that you could post your Huawei talking points. It's been improved in iOS 12, and has migrated to the single lens XR using focus points to determine depth. Whether Apple was first with faux bokeh is less important than that it was delivered fully baked when Apple popularized it with the iPhone 7.

    How's that Mate 20 doing?.

    By the time Huawei releases it, Apple will already have shipped 15 million iPhone's XS/XR, about the same number of units that that you state Huawei will sell in total for the P20 series. Seems like Huawei has a hill to climb to even meet Apple's unit sales this year.

    Maybe next year.
    Thanks for at least providing an answer.

    As for Portrait mode. Your quote uses the word 'popularize', probably because Huawei had dual cameras months before Apple with its very own portrait mode. Apple's stayed in beta for a year. Not fully baked!

    However, I appreciate the answer all the same. But is this article on 'Portait Mode' or something new regarding depth of field in a wider perspective?

    That was part of my doubt. From the article:

    "We've been dying to check out the new controllable aperture feature exclusive to these new phones"

    That doesn't sound like an existing feature.

    That's why I brought it up. It has nothing to do with 'Huawei talking points'.

    As for the Mate 20, who knows!? LOL.

    We'll have to wait and see.


  • Reply 66 of 187
    avon b7avon b7 Posts: 3,942member
    avon b7 said:
    tmay said:
    avon b7 said:
    tmay said:
    .
    avon b7 said:
    Is there a difference between the camera mode you are describing and what Huawei phones have done for years?

    The reason I ask is that when they announced the feature I automatically assumed it would be different but what you describe is practically identical to how Huawei phones have operated since the P9. I thought it was already possible on Apple's dual lens phones.

    ....

    Or is not so much what it does as how it does it?
    Huawei? Who cares. Do major US network carriers even carry that pos?
    So you assume that rest of the world does not matter, huh? Arrogance like that does not pay of. Huiwaei dominates markets elswhere and perhaps instead of being arrogant you may need reality check that those phones as well as Samsung dominate in Europe and Apple iPhone is nowhere near. You should star caring because on competitive markets other vendors build solutions that Apple follows (not leads) and some brainwash seems to be out there that Apple is the only innovator. The fact is that Apple came with few features 9(like biometrics) later than Samsung for example, but Samsung never claimed it was copied by Apple so you assume that Apple was first. Instead of reading only Apple news maye be you should start tracking general technology state. You would be surprized what you did not know and assumed that only one vendor innovates.

    Yes we do care about Huwaei, Samsung, LG and Google. Some pople did not review some features and thise dominant on other markets companies already have some stuff that nobody seems here to have a clue about. On top of that some of it is far more practical. Some even say that Pixel 2 photo quality is now top on the market - not Apple iPhones. there will be those now claimin that Aperture mode is so innovative. Well on phones it alreay exist, and it was used on SLR cameras (I used it for years) for decades now. It just got squeezed into smaller package - nothing else.
    I'll post this link;

    https://www.ped30.com/2018/09/20/counterpoint-regions-apple-iphone/

    Apple doesn't have an iPhone under $449, though there may be lower cost models manufacturer for India.

    Seriously, do you think that this data makes Apple look bad?

    Sure, Apple doesn't cater at all to the under $400 market, where the bulk of Huawei's sales are, but I will state that it is likely that Apple will sell a similar number of XS and XS Max units World Wide by the end of this month, as Huawei has sold of the P20 series since its March release. The P20 Pro isn't a great seller, although Avon B7 has tried to portray it as a great success, with pretty flakey data. Maybe it is. Nonetheless, is a likelihood that Apple will sell 80 to 85 million iPhones next quarter, and about 70% of those, will be the X models.

    Being first with niche features is a fool's game, but appropriate for the Android OS device market, where any differentiation at all is a huge marketing necessity. That's likely why we see mostly unbaked innovation in these devices first. Apple, works off of internal roadmap, so these companies, and their customers, as guinea pigs for new features is actually savvy.

    Flakey data?

    Niche features?

    The data on P20 Series sales came straight from Huawei. Official numbers. It has been a massive success.

    Aperture Mode is one of the main features on Huawei phones, not a niche feature. Even on my little Honor 10.

    I didn't ask this question last week simply because I thought the feature was different. Seeing the description here, and noting that the process is virtually identical, prompted me to ask.

    There is no need to go on the defensive.

    From the same company that lies about benchmarks?

    So please enlighten us. How many P20 or P20 Pro phones has Huawei sold? Why say "massive success" without backing it up with hard data?


    Edited: Funny, I went over to Geekbench and don't see any benchmarks for the P20 or P20 Pro anywhere. Geekbench is useful for one other thing besides benchmarks. They require a minimum number of tests before a device gets listed in their charts. This is why you won't see a device in their charts until some time after it launches and enough people have tested it. The Note 9 is also another device that hasn't hit the charts yet, and like last year, I expect it will show up shortly. The iPhone XS and XS Max have both already shown up, meaning there have been a LOT of sales of these devices. And like in years past, the latest iPhone usually shows up a day or two after release.

    I'm REALLY curious why the P20/Pro aren't listed. My guess is it hasn't sold as well as Huawei claims.
    Huawei had four devices banned for cheating, so whatever data was there, is now gone.

    I know 3DMark removed four Huawei devices, but I haven't heard of anyone else removing them (such as Geekbench).
    I don't ever visit benchmarking sites so I can't comment on that but 3DMark will reinstate the results in the coming weeks it seems. Huawei will allow users to activate performance mode. Once that is in place, the results should be re-listed.

    So Huawei is going to label a specific mode and call it "Performance Mode"? Why not call it what it is: "Battery Hogging Overclocking Excess Heat Generating Can Only Run For A Couple Minutes Mode".
    Which is precisely why I give preference to real world usage over benchmarks. I do think benchmarks play a role though.

    As for the name, I suppose it is at least apt in this context.
  • Reply 67 of 187
    tmaytmay Posts: 3,818member
    avon b7 said:
    tmay said:
    avon b7 said:
    melgross said:

    avon b7 said:
    tmay said:
    .
    avon b7 said:
    Is there a difference between the camera mode you are describing and what Huawei phones have done for years?

    The reason I ask is that when they announced the feature I automatically assumed it would be different but what you describe is practically identical to how Huawei phones have operated since the P9. I thought it was already possible on Apple's dual lens phones.

    ....

    Or is not so much what it does as how it does it?
    Huawei? Who cares. Do major US network carriers even carry that pos?
    So you assume that rest of the world does not matter, huh? Arrogance like that does not pay of. Huiwaei dominates markets elswhere and perhaps instead of being arrogant you may need reality check that those phones as well as Samsung dominate in Europe and Apple iPhone is nowhere near. You should star caring because on competitive markets other vendors build solutions that Apple follows (not leads) and some brainwash seems to be out there that Apple is the only innovator. The fact is that Apple came with few features 9(like biometrics) later than Samsung for example, but Samsung never claimed it was copied by Apple so you assume that Apple was first. Instead of reading only Apple news maye be you should start tracking general technology state. You would be surprized what you did not know and assumed that only one vendor innovates.

    Yes we do care about Huwaei, Samsung, LG and Google. Some pople did not review some features and thise dominant on other markets companies already have some stuff that nobody seems here to have a clue about. On top of that some of it is far more practical. Some even say that Pixel 2 photo quality is now top on the market - not Apple iPhones. there will be those now claimin that Aperture mode is so innovative. Well on phones it alreay exist, and it was used on SLR cameras (I used it for years) for decades now. It just got squeezed into smaller package - nothing else.
    I'll post this link;

    https://www.ped30.com/2018/09/20/counterpoint-regions-apple-iphone/

    Apple doesn't have an iPhone under $449, though there may be lower cost models manufacturer for India.

    Seriously, do you think that this data makes Apple look bad?

    Sure, Apple doesn't cater at all to the under $400 market, where the bulk of Huawei's sales are, but I will state that it is likely that Apple will sell a similar number of XS and XS Max units World Wide by the end of this month, as Huawei has sold of the P20 series since its March release. The P20 Pro isn't a great seller, although Avon B7 has tried to portray it as a great success, with pretty flakey data. Maybe it is. Nonetheless, is a likelihood that Apple will sell 80 to 85 million iPhones next quarter, and about 70% of those, will be the X models.

    Being first with niche features is a fool's game, but appropriate for the Android OS device market, where any differentiation at all is a huge marketing necessity. That's likely why we see mostly unbaked innovation in these devices first. Apple, works off of internal roadmap, so these companies, and their customers, as guinea pigs for new features is actually savvy.

    Flakey data?

    Niche features?

    The data on P20 Series sales came straight from Huawei. Official numbers. It has been a massive success.

    Aperture Mode is one of the main features on Huawei phones, not a niche feature. Even on my little Honor 10.

    I didn't ask this question last week simply because I thought the feature was different. Seeing the description here, and noting that the process is virtually identical, prompted me to ask.

    There is no need to go on the defensive.
    Well, as we all know, Huawei cheats on testing, something I notice you failed to respond to when I posted that to you in a different thread. I wouldn’t be surprised if they lie about other things too. Whether you like it or not, Chinese companies are known to be, shall we say, flexible, in their company reports. A tiny picture also says little about the quality of the effect, as most everything looks good in a small size. At any rate, we need a couple of dozen images of different types to get an idea as to how well these features work overall, because one well selected image might be great, while most others may be crap.

    aperture mode has to prove itself. Samsung also has a variable aperture, but images using it are no better than those not using it. We’ve also seen a coup,e of phones using two cameras, one taking luminance images, and the other using color images. Supposedly, much better images result. And indeed, the marketing images shown did look pretty good. But when the phones were out in the “wild”, it turned out that the images were pretty bad. These gimmicks rarely work.

    and yes, that evaluation goes for all phones.
    I responded to the Huawei benchmark (and the DSLR) news the very first time it was mentioned here. I responded clearly and openly and was critical of the behaviour. You missed it, it seems.

    You will forgive me for simply passing on the subsequent comments which are simply cheap shots aimed at the company - as a whole - because those comments are simply absurd, as the company as a whole is massive and far removed from the areas involved.

    So when people start questioning the likes of HiSilicon, or the results of the imaging division or battery research - as you yourself did not long ago - it is frankly absurd too. I provide links. With all due respect you have simply limited yourself to telling people they are wrong but without offering any supporting information beyond your own knowledge. Would you accept it if I did the same?

    Huawei is a private company but independently audited just like other companies. There is zero reason to question results.

    On the subject at hand, you are now diverging from the feature itself into the quality if the feature. I have no issue with that. It is a valid comment and I agree - to a degree - but that has nothing to do with my point, which is a completely different.

    And if this feature really hasn't existed on an iPhone until now, the quality is irrevelant. Even just 'acceptable' results would be good enough (even if purely hit and miss), if the other option was not having the feature at all.
    "Huawei is a private company but independently audited just like other companies." There is zero reason to question results." I would feel free to question the results of U.S. company audits, so, no, your statement isn't reassuring.

    Huawei ultimately answers to the authoritarian Chinese government, so, yeah, plenty of reasons to question all things Huawei. 

    As for Apple's Portrait Mode blur feature,

    https://www.businessinsider.com/apple-iphone-portrait-mode-explained-2017-10

    "But Apple was the first to popularize portrait mode, and now offers it on the iPhone 7 Plus, iPhone 8 Plus, and iPhone X."

    Seems like you would have been aware of this feature that was released with the iPhone 7 Plus, that requires dual lenses, but you brought it up so that you could post your Huawei talking points. It's been improved in iOS 12, and has migrated to the single lens XR using focus points to determine depth. Whether Apple was first with faux bokeh is less important than that it was delivered fully baked when Apple popularized it with the iPhone 7.

    How's that Mate 20 doing?.

    By the time Huawei releases it, Apple will already have shipped 15 million iPhone's XS/XR, about the same number of units that that you state Huawei will sell in total for the P20 series. Seems like Huawei has a hill to climb to even meet Apple's unit sales this year.

    Maybe next year.
    Thanks for at least providing an answer.

    As for Portrait mode. Your quote uses the word 'popularize', probably because Huawei had dual cameras months before Apple with its very own portrait mode. Apple's stayed in beta for a year. Not fully baked!

    However, I appreciate the answer all the same. But is this article on 'Portait Mode' or something new regarding depth of field in a wider perspective?

    That was part of my doubt. From the article:

    "We've been dying to check out the new controllable aperture feature exclusive to these new phones"

    That doesn't sound like an existing feature.

    That's why I brought it up. It has nothing to do with 'Huawei talking points'.

    As for the Mate 20, who knows!? LOL.

    We'll have to wait and see.


    Controllable synthetic aperture using a f/stop slider is the new feature.

    If this had nothing to do with Huawei talking points, then why even bring it up? It's obvious that the improvements in usability and IQ for the feature are independent of "who came first", which was the point of your post. More to the point, it would have been exceedingly easy to so a bit of research such that you didn't come off as "partisan".

    You said "wait and see" about the X, and state it was an anniversary model, and that it wasn't selling well, all of which were false. I have stated the it was the new design, which is true, that it was Apple's most successful single model, which is also true. It looks obvious that Apple has deprecated TouchID, and that the iPhone 8's will be the last current models with that feature, as well as the "chin".

    So "wait and see" is just your standard denier of Apple success with the iPhone X. 

    The Mate 20 is going to have fair winds for only a short time in the Android OS device market, then competition will hit from Samsung with a reported four S10 models, and the other Android OS device makers, then you will be back with, "but wait until the P30 comes out!". The Kirin 980 will be up against the Samsung Exynos 9880 and the Qualcomm 855, both at 7nm.
    bb-15StrangeDaysmuthuk_vanalingamwatto_cobra
  • Reply 68 of 187
    avon b7 said:
    avon b7 said:
    tmay said:
    avon b7 said:
    tmay said:
    .
    avon b7 said:
    Is there a difference between the camera mode you are describing and what Huawei phones have done for years?

    The reason I ask is that when they announced the feature I automatically assumed it would be different but what you describe is practically identical to how Huawei phones have operated since the P9. I thought it was already possible on Apple's dual lens phones.

    ....

    Or is not so much what it does as how it does it?
    Huawei? Who cares. Do major US network carriers even carry that pos?
    So you assume that rest of the world does not matter, huh? Arrogance like that does not pay of. Huiwaei dominates markets elswhere and perhaps instead of being arrogant you may need reality check that those phones as well as Samsung dominate in Europe and Apple iPhone is nowhere near. You should star caring because on competitive markets other vendors build solutions that Apple follows (not leads) and some brainwash seems to be out there that Apple is the only innovator. The fact is that Apple came with few features 9(like biometrics) later than Samsung for example, but Samsung never claimed it was copied by Apple so you assume that Apple was first. Instead of reading only Apple news maye be you should start tracking general technology state. You would be surprized what you did not know and assumed that only one vendor innovates.

    Yes we do care about Huwaei, Samsung, LG and Google. Some pople did not review some features and thise dominant on other markets companies already have some stuff that nobody seems here to have a clue about. On top of that some of it is far more practical. Some even say that Pixel 2 photo quality is now top on the market - not Apple iPhones. there will be those now claimin that Aperture mode is so innovative. Well on phones it alreay exist, and it was used on SLR cameras (I used it for years) for decades now. It just got squeezed into smaller package - nothing else.
    I'll post this link;

    https://www.ped30.com/2018/09/20/counterpoint-regions-apple-iphone/

    Apple doesn't have an iPhone under $449, though there may be lower cost models manufacturer for India.

    Seriously, do you think that this data makes Apple look bad?

    Sure, Apple doesn't cater at all to the under $400 market, where the bulk of Huawei's sales are, but I will state that it is likely that Apple will sell a similar number of XS and XS Max units World Wide by the end of this month, as Huawei has sold of the P20 series since its March release. The P20 Pro isn't a great seller, although Avon B7 has tried to portray it as a great success, with pretty flakey data. Maybe it is. Nonetheless, is a likelihood that Apple will sell 80 to 85 million iPhones next quarter, and about 70% of those, will be the X models.

    Being first with niche features is a fool's game, but appropriate for the Android OS device market, where any differentiation at all is a huge marketing necessity. That's likely why we see mostly unbaked innovation in these devices first. Apple, works off of internal roadmap, so these companies, and their customers, as guinea pigs for new features is actually savvy.

    Flakey data?

    Niche features?

    The data on P20 Series sales came straight from Huawei. Official numbers. It has been a massive success.

    Aperture Mode is one of the main features on Huawei phones, not a niche feature. Even on my little Honor 10.

    I didn't ask this question last week simply because I thought the feature was different. Seeing the description here, and noting that the process is virtually identical, prompted me to ask.

    There is no need to go on the defensive.

    From the same company that lies about benchmarks?

    So please enlighten us. How many P20 or P20 Pro phones has Huawei sold? Why say "massive success" without backing it up with hard data?


    Edited: Funny, I went over to Geekbench and don't see any benchmarks for the P20 or P20 Pro anywhere. Geekbench is useful for one other thing besides benchmarks. They require a minimum number of tests before a device gets listed in their charts. This is why you won't see a device in their charts until some time after it launches and enough people have tested it. The Note 9 is also another device that hasn't hit the charts yet, and like last year, I expect it will show up shortly. The iPhone XS and XS Max have both already shown up, meaning there have been a LOT of sales of these devices. And like in years past, the latest iPhone usually shows up a day or two after release.

    I'm REALLY curious why the P20/Pro aren't listed. My guess is it hasn't sold as well as Huawei claims.
    Huawei had four devices banned for cheating, so whatever data was there, is now gone.

    I know 3DMark removed four Huawei devices, but I haven't heard of anyone else removing them (such as Geekbench).
    I don't ever visit benchmarking sites so I can't comment on that but 3DMark will reinstate the results in the coming weeks it seems. Huawei will allow users to activate performance mode. Once that is in place, the results should be re-listed.

    So Huawei is going to label a specific mode and call it "Performance Mode"? Why not call it what it is: "Battery Hogging Overclocking Excess Heat Generating Can Only Run For A Couple Minutes Mode".
    Which is precisely why I give preference to real world usage over benchmarks. I do think benchmarks play a role though.

    As for the name, I suppose it is at least apt in this context.

    Benchmarks are very important. Provided everyone plays by the same rules. I guarantee you when Anandtech (or any reputable site) tests a Huawei phone and lists the results they're going to test it in "Normal Mode" and NOT in "Performance Mode". You claim "real world usage" matters. If that's true, then what's the point of "Performance Mode"? You'd never be able to use this in the "real world", so why is it even included?

    Further, Android itself doesn't even have any Apps that can take advantage of modern processors in phones. So having a fast SoC in any Huawei (or Samsung or LG or Pixel) phone is kinda pointless since it never really gets used. Which makes "Performance Mode" even less relevant than it already is.
    tmayradarthekatwatto_cobra
  • Reply 69 of 187
    tmaytmay Posts: 3,818member
    avon b7 said:
    tmay said:
    avon b7 said:
    tmay said:
    .
    avon b7 said:
    Is there a difference between the camera mode you are describing and what Huawei phones have done for years?

    The reason I ask is that when they announced the feature I automatically assumed it would be different but what you describe is practically identical to how Huawei phones have operated since the P9. I thought it was already possible on Apple's dual lens phones.

    ....

    Or is not so much what it does as how it does it?
    Huawei? Who cares. Do major US network carriers even carry that pos?
    So you assume that rest of the world does not matter, huh? Arrogance like that does not pay of. Huiwaei dominates markets elswhere and perhaps instead of being arrogant you may need reality check that those phones as well as Samsung dominate in Europe and Apple iPhone is nowhere near. You should star caring because on competitive markets other vendors build solutions that Apple follows (not leads) and some brainwash seems to be out there that Apple is the only innovator. The fact is that Apple came with few features 9(like biometrics) later than Samsung for example, but Samsung never claimed it was copied by Apple so you assume that Apple was first. Instead of reading only Apple news maye be you should start tracking general technology state. You would be surprized what you did not know and assumed that only one vendor innovates.

    Yes we do care about Huwaei, Samsung, LG and Google. Some pople did not review some features and thise dominant on other markets companies already have some stuff that nobody seems here to have a clue about. On top of that some of it is far more practical. Some even say that Pixel 2 photo quality is now top on the market - not Apple iPhones. there will be those now claimin that Aperture mode is so innovative. Well on phones it alreay exist, and it was used on SLR cameras (I used it for years) for decades now. It just got squeezed into smaller package - nothing else.
    I'll post this link;

    https://www.ped30.com/2018/09/20/counterpoint-regions-apple-iphone/

    Apple doesn't have an iPhone under $449, though there may be lower cost models manufacturer for India.

    Seriously, do you think that this data makes Apple look bad?

    Sure, Apple doesn't cater at all to the under $400 market, where the bulk of Huawei's sales are, but I will state that it is likely that Apple will sell a similar number of XS and XS Max units World Wide by the end of this month, as Huawei has sold of the P20 series since its March release. The P20 Pro isn't a great seller, although Avon B7 has tried to portray it as a great success, with pretty flakey data. Maybe it is. Nonetheless, is a likelihood that Apple will sell 80 to 85 million iPhones next quarter, and about 70% of those, will be the X models.

    Being first with niche features is a fool's game, but appropriate for the Android OS device market, where any differentiation at all is a huge marketing necessity. That's likely why we see mostly unbaked innovation in these devices first. Apple, works off of internal roadmap, so these companies, and their customers, as guinea pigs for new features is actually savvy.

    Flakey data?

    Niche features?

    The data on P20 Series sales came straight from Huawei. Official numbers. It has been a massive success.

    Aperture Mode is one of the main features on Huawei phones, not a niche feature. Even on my little Honor 10.

    I didn't ask this question last week simply because I thought the feature was different. Seeing the description here, and noting that the process is virtually identical, prompted me to ask.

    There is no need to go on the defensive.

    From the same company that lies about benchmarks?

    So please enlighten us. How many P20 or P20 Pro phones has Huawei sold? Why say "massive success" without backing it up with hard data?


    Edited: Funny, I went over to Geekbench and don't see any benchmarks for the P20 or P20 Pro anywhere. Geekbench is useful for one other thing besides benchmarks. They require a minimum number of tests before a device gets listed in their charts. This is why you won't see a device in their charts until some time after it launches and enough people have tested it. The Note 9 is also another device that hasn't hit the charts yet, and like last year, I expect it will show up shortly. The iPhone XS and XS Max have both already shown up, meaning there have been a LOT of sales of these devices. And like in years past, the latest iPhone usually shows up a day or two after release.

    I'm REALLY curious why the P20/Pro aren't listed. My guess is it hasn't sold as well as Huawei claims.
    Huawei had four devices banned for cheating, so whatever data was there, is now gone.

    I know 3DMark removed four Huawei devices, but I haven't heard of anyone else removing them (such as Geekbench).
    I don't ever visit benchmarking sites so I can't comment on that but 3DMark will reinstate the results in the coming weeks it seems. Huawei will allow users to activate performance mode. Once that is in place, the results should be re-listed.
    "I don't ever visit benchmarking sites".

    if that's true, which I am skeptical of, you would still have no issue with reposting those same results from another site reporting it. 

    What the fuck is the difference?
    SoliericthehalfbeeStrangeDayswatto_cobra
  • Reply 70 of 187
    avon b7avon b7 Posts: 3,942member
    tmay said:
    avon b7 said:
    tmay said:
    avon b7 said:
    melgross said:

    avon b7 said:
    tmay said:
    .
    avon b7 said:
    Is there a difference between the camera mode you are describing and what Huawei phones have done for years?

    The reason I ask is that when they announced the feature I automatically assumed it would be different but what you describe is practically identical to how Huawei phones have operated since the P9. I thought it was already possible on Apple's dual lens phones.

    ....

    Or is not so much what it does as how it does it?
    Huawei? Who cares. Do major US network carriers even carry that pos?
    So you assume that rest of the world does not matter, huh? Arrogance like that does not pay of. Huiwaei dominates markets elswhere and perhaps instead of being arrogant you may need reality check that those phones as well as Samsung dominate in Europe and Apple iPhone is nowhere near. You should star caring because on competitive markets other vendors build solutions that Apple follows (not leads) and some brainwash seems to be out there that Apple is the only innovator. The fact is that Apple came with few features 9(like biometrics) later than Samsung for example, but Samsung never claimed it was copied by Apple so you assume that Apple was first. Instead of reading only Apple news maye be you should start tracking general technology state. You would be surprized what you did not know and assumed that only one vendor innovates.

    Yes we do care about Huwaei, Samsung, LG and Google. Some pople did not review some features and thise dominant on other markets companies already have some stuff that nobody seems here to have a clue about. On top of that some of it is far more practical. Some even say that Pixel 2 photo quality is now top on the market - not Apple iPhones. there will be those now claimin that Aperture mode is so innovative. Well on phones it alreay exist, and it was used on SLR cameras (I used it for years) for decades now. It just got squeezed into smaller package - nothing else.
    I'll post this link;

    https://www.ped30.com/2018/09/20/counterpoint-regions-apple-iphone/

    Apple doesn't have an iPhone under $449, though there may be lower cost models manufacturer for India.

    Seriously, do you think that this data makes Apple look bad?

    Sure, Apple doesn't cater at all to the under $400 market, where the bulk of Huawei's sales are, but I will state that it is likely that Apple will sell a similar number of XS and XS Max units World Wide by the end of this month, as Huawei has sold of the P20 series since its March release. The P20 Pro isn't a great seller, although Avon B7 has tried to portray it as a great success, with pretty flakey data. Maybe it is. Nonetheless, is a likelihood that Apple will sell 80 to 85 million iPhones next quarter, and about 70% of those, will be the X models.

    Being first with niche features is a fool's game, but appropriate for the Android OS device market, where any differentiation at all is a huge marketing necessity. That's likely why we see mostly unbaked innovation in these devices first. Apple, works off of internal roadmap, so these companies, and their customers, as guinea pigs for new features is actually savvy.

    Flakey data?

    Niche features?

    The data on P20 Series sales came straight from Huawei. Official numbers. It has been a massive success.

    Aperture Mode is one of the main features on Huawei phones, not a niche feature. Even on my little Honor 10.

    I didn't ask this question last week simply because I thought the feature was different. Seeing the description here, and noting that the process is virtually identical, prompted me to ask.

    There is no need to go on the defensive.
    Well, as we all know, Huawei cheats on testing, something I notice you failed to respond to when I posted that to you in a different thread. I wouldn’t be surprised if they lie about other things too. Whether you like it or not, Chinese companies are known to be, shall we say, flexible, in their company reports. A tiny picture also says little about the quality of the effect, as most everything looks good in a small size. At any rate, we need a couple of dozen images of different types to get an idea as to how well these features work overall, because one well selected image might be great, while most others may be crap.

    aperture mode has to prove itself. Samsung also has a variable aperture, but images using it are no better than those not using it. We’ve also seen a coup,e of phones using two cameras, one taking luminance images, and the other using color images. Supposedly, much better images result. And indeed, the marketing images shown did look pretty good. But when the phones were out in the “wild”, it turned out that the images were pretty bad. These gimmicks rarely work.

    and yes, that evaluation goes for all phones.
    I responded to the Huawei benchmark (and the DSLR) news the very first time it was mentioned here. I responded clearly and openly and was critical of the behaviour. You missed it, it seems.

    You will forgive me for simply passing on the subsequent comments which are simply cheap shots aimed at the company - as a whole - because those comments are simply absurd, as the company as a whole is massive and far removed from the areas involved.

    So when people start questioning the likes of HiSilicon, or the results of the imaging division or battery research - as you yourself did not long ago - it is frankly absurd too. I provide links. With all due respect you have simply limited yourself to telling people they are wrong but without offering any supporting information beyond your own knowledge. Would you accept it if I did the same?

    Huawei is a private company but independently audited just like other companies. There is zero reason to question results.

    On the subject at hand, you are now diverging from the feature itself into the quality if the feature. I have no issue with that. It is a valid comment and I agree - to a degree - but that has nothing to do with my point, which is a completely different.

    And if this feature really hasn't existed on an iPhone until now, the quality is irrevelant. Even just 'acceptable' results would be good enough (even if purely hit and miss), if the other option was not having the feature at all.
    "Huawei is a private company but independently audited just like other companies." There is zero reason to question results." I would feel free to question the results of U.S. company audits, so, no, your statement isn't reassuring.

    Huawei ultimately answers to the authoritarian Chinese government, so, yeah, plenty of reasons to question all things Huawei. 

    As for Apple's Portrait Mode blur feature,

    https://www.businessinsider.com/apple-iphone-portrait-mode-explained-2017-10

    "But Apple was the first to popularize portrait mode, and now offers it on the iPhone 7 Plus, iPhone 8 Plus, and iPhone X."

    Seems like you would have been aware of this feature that was released with the iPhone 7 Plus, that requires dual lenses, but you brought it up so that you could post your Huawei talking points. It's been improved in iOS 12, and has migrated to the single lens XR using focus points to determine depth. Whether Apple was first with faux bokeh is less important than that it was delivered fully baked when Apple popularized it with the iPhone 7.

    How's that Mate 20 doing?.

    By the time Huawei releases it, Apple will already have shipped 15 million iPhone's XS/XR, about the same number of units that that you state Huawei will sell in total for the P20 series. Seems like Huawei has a hill to climb to even meet Apple's unit sales this year.

    Maybe next year.
    Thanks for at least providing an answer.

    As for Portrait mode. Your quote uses the word 'popularize', probably because Huawei had dual cameras months before Apple with its very own portrait mode. Apple's stayed in beta for a year. Not fully baked!

    However, I appreciate the answer all the same. But is this article on 'Portait Mode' or something new regarding depth of field in a wider perspective?

    That was part of my doubt. From the article:

    "We've been dying to check out the new controllable aperture feature exclusive to these new phones"

    That doesn't sound like an existing feature.

    That's why I brought it up. It has nothing to do with 'Huawei talking points'.

    As for the Mate 20, who knows!? LOL.

    We'll have to wait and see.


    Controllable synthetic aperture using a f/stop slider is the new feature.

    If this had nothing to do with Huawei talking points, then why even bring it up? It's obvious that the improvements in usability and IQ for the feature are independent of "who came first", which was the point of your post. More to the point, it would have been exceedingly easy to so a bit of research such that you didn't come off as "partisan".

    You said "wait and see" about the X, and state it was an anniversary model, and that it wasn't selling well, all of which were false. I have stated the it was the new design, which is true, that it was Apple's most successful single model, which is also true. It looks obvious that Apple has deprecated TouchID, and that the iPhone 8's will be the last current models with that feature, as well as the "chin".

    So "wait and see" is just your standard denier of Apple success with the iPhone X. 

    The Mate 20 is going to have fair winds for only a short time in the Android OS device market, then competition will hit from Samsung with a reported four S10 models, and the other Android OS device makers, then you will be back with, "but wait until the P30 comes out!". The Kirin 980 will be up against the Samsung Exynos 9880 and the Qualcomm 855, both at 7nm.
    Why bring it up?

    Why not read why I even bothered to explain exactly why I asked about this in the first place? I've repeated it twice in this thread already!

    I did my 'research' and came up blank. It is clear that posters here didn't know either, hence the lack of answers. Probably because it is easy to confuse the two features.

    And to add insult to injury, now, you throw in:

    "Controllable synthetic aperture using a f/stop slider is the new feature"

    Why didn't you say that in your first reply instead of going into a rant on Huawei and mentioning Portrait Mode? 

    It at least, finally, provides a decent answer, so thanks for that.

    As for the rest, you are re-hashing the same false claims as you always do and wanting to take this far off topic. Open up a new thread if you wish and I will correct all of your claims. I will put you straight on every point. Literally. Quotes and all. We will see what I really said and in what context and if your claims are true.
  • Reply 71 of 187
    avon b7avon b7 Posts: 3,942member
    tmay said:
    avon b7 said:
    tmay said:
    avon b7 said:
    tmay said:
    .
    avon b7 said:
    Is there a difference between the camera mode you are describing and what Huawei phones have done for years?

    The reason I ask is that when they announced the feature I automatically assumed it would be different but what you describe is practically identical to how Huawei phones have operated since the P9. I thought it was already possible on Apple's dual lens phones.

    ....

    Or is not so much what it does as how it does it?
    Huawei? Who cares. Do major US network carriers even carry that pos?
    So you assume that rest of the world does not matter, huh? Arrogance like that does not pay of. Huiwaei dominates markets elswhere and perhaps instead of being arrogant you may need reality check that those phones as well as Samsung dominate in Europe and Apple iPhone is nowhere near. You should star caring because on competitive markets other vendors build solutions that Apple follows (not leads) and some brainwash seems to be out there that Apple is the only innovator. The fact is that Apple came with few features 9(like biometrics) later than Samsung for example, but Samsung never claimed it was copied by Apple so you assume that Apple was first. Instead of reading only Apple news maye be you should start tracking general technology state. You would be surprized what you did not know and assumed that only one vendor innovates.

    Yes we do care about Huwaei, Samsung, LG and Google. Some pople did not review some features and thise dominant on other markets companies already have some stuff that nobody seems here to have a clue about. On top of that some of it is far more practical. Some even say that Pixel 2 photo quality is now top on the market - not Apple iPhones. there will be those now claimin that Aperture mode is so innovative. Well on phones it alreay exist, and it was used on SLR cameras (I used it for years) for decades now. It just got squeezed into smaller package - nothing else.
    I'll post this link;

    https://www.ped30.com/2018/09/20/counterpoint-regions-apple-iphone/

    Apple doesn't have an iPhone under $449, though there may be lower cost models manufacturer for India.

    Seriously, do you think that this data makes Apple look bad?

    Sure, Apple doesn't cater at all to the under $400 market, where the bulk of Huawei's sales are, but I will state that it is likely that Apple will sell a similar number of XS and XS Max units World Wide by the end of this month, as Huawei has sold of the P20 series since its March release. The P20 Pro isn't a great seller, although Avon B7 has tried to portray it as a great success, with pretty flakey data. Maybe it is. Nonetheless, is a likelihood that Apple will sell 80 to 85 million iPhones next quarter, and about 70% of those, will be the X models.

    Being first with niche features is a fool's game, but appropriate for the Android OS device market, where any differentiation at all is a huge marketing necessity. That's likely why we see mostly unbaked innovation in these devices first. Apple, works off of internal roadmap, so these companies, and their customers, as guinea pigs for new features is actually savvy.

    Flakey data?

    Niche features?

    The data on P20 Series sales came straight from Huawei. Official numbers. It has been a massive success.

    Aperture Mode is one of the main features on Huawei phones, not a niche feature. Even on my little Honor 10.

    I didn't ask this question last week simply because I thought the feature was different. Seeing the description here, and noting that the process is virtually identical, prompted me to ask.

    There is no need to go on the defensive.

    From the same company that lies about benchmarks?

    So please enlighten us. How many P20 or P20 Pro phones has Huawei sold? Why say "massive success" without backing it up with hard data?


    Edited: Funny, I went over to Geekbench and don't see any benchmarks for the P20 or P20 Pro anywhere. Geekbench is useful for one other thing besides benchmarks. They require a minimum number of tests before a device gets listed in their charts. This is why you won't see a device in their charts until some time after it launches and enough people have tested it. The Note 9 is also another device that hasn't hit the charts yet, and like last year, I expect it will show up shortly. The iPhone XS and XS Max have both already shown up, meaning there have been a LOT of sales of these devices. And like in years past, the latest iPhone usually shows up a day or two after release.

    I'm REALLY curious why the P20/Pro aren't listed. My guess is it hasn't sold as well as Huawei claims.
    Huawei had four devices banned for cheating, so whatever data was there, is now gone.

    I know 3DMark removed four Huawei devices, but I haven't heard of anyone else removing them (such as Geekbench).
    I don't ever visit benchmarking sites so I can't comment on that but 3DMark will reinstate the results in the coming weeks it seems. Huawei will allow users to activate performance mode. Once that is in place, the results should be re-listed.
    "I don't ever visit benchmarking sites".

    if that's true, which I am skeptical of, you would still have no issue with reposting those same results from another site reporting it. 

    What the fuck is the difference?
    There is a massive difference. I have no reason to visit benchmarking sites. I do not game or use any heavy lifting apps. If the phone is fast enough for me to use it and not run into performance issues, I'm served.

    An A12 or Kirin 980 will not give me any noticeable speed gain with my usage.

    I have no issue posting benchmarks from sites. Each person should know how to interpret sythentic results. As I said, they play a role but they are not the be all and end all.

    I rarely, if at all, post benchmarks anyway. If I do, it is normally because someone is questioning something or saying outright that the results don't exist.
  • Reply 72 of 187
    melgross said:

    Bokeh is a totally unnatural effect. Lens bokeh is no more natural, or “right” than computational bokeh.
    You make a valid point and IMHO the whole bokeh thing is overblown nowadays, as is HDR.

    But as photographer, you’ll agree that some bokeh is more PLEASING than others and I just don’t find computational bokeh pleasing. 
    dewmebaconstang
  • Reply 73 of 187
    tmaytmay Posts: 3,818member
    avon b7 said:
    tmay said:
    avon b7 said:
    tmay said:
    avon b7 said:
    melgross said:

    avon b7 said:
    tmay said:
    .
    avon b7 said:
    Is there a difference between the camera mode you are describing and what Huawei phones have done for years?

    The reason I ask is that when they announced the feature I automatically assumed it would be different but what you describe is practically identical to how Huawei phones have operated since the P9. I thought it was already possible on Apple's dual lens phones.

    ....

    Or is not so much what it does as how it does it?
    Huawei? Who cares. Do major US network carriers even carry that pos?
    So you assume that rest of the world does not matter, huh? Arrogance like that does not pay of. Huiwaei dominates markets elswhere and perhaps instead of being arrogant you may need reality check that those phones as well as Samsung dominate in Europe and Apple iPhone is nowhere near. You should star caring because on competitive markets other vendors build solutions that Apple follows (not leads) and some brainwash seems to be out there that Apple is the only innovator. The fact is that Apple came with few features 9(like biometrics) later than Samsung for example, but Samsung never claimed it was copied by Apple so you assume that Apple was first. Instead of reading only Apple news maye be you should start tracking general technology state. You would be surprized what you did not know and assumed that only one vendor innovates.

    Yes we do care about Huwaei, Samsung, LG and Google. Some pople did not review some features and thise dominant on other markets companies already have some stuff that nobody seems here to have a clue about. On top of that some of it is far more practical. Some even say that Pixel 2 photo quality is now top on the market - not Apple iPhones. there will be those now claimin that Aperture mode is so innovative. Well on phones it alreay exist, and it was used on SLR cameras (I used it for years) for decades now. It just got squeezed into smaller package - nothing else.
    I'll post this link;

    https://www.ped30.com/2018/09/20/counterpoint-regions-apple-iphone/

    Apple doesn't have an iPhone under $449, though there may be lower cost models manufacturer for India.

    Seriously, do you think that this data makes Apple look bad?

    Sure, Apple doesn't cater at all to the under $400 market, where the bulk of Huawei's sales are, but I will state that it is likely that Apple will sell a similar number of XS and XS Max units World Wide by the end of this month, as Huawei has sold of the P20 series since its March release. The P20 Pro isn't a great seller, although Avon B7 has tried to portray it as a great success, with pretty flakey data. Maybe it is. Nonetheless, is a likelihood that Apple will sell 80 to 85 million iPhones next quarter, and about 70% of those, will be the X models.

    Being first with niche features is a fool's game, but appropriate for the Android OS device market, where any differentiation at all is a huge marketing necessity. That's likely why we see mostly unbaked innovation in these devices first. Apple, works off of internal roadmap, so these companies, and their customers, as guinea pigs for new features is actually savvy.

    Flakey data?

    Niche features?

    The data on P20 Series sales came straight from Huawei. Official numbers. It has been a massive success.

    Aperture Mode is one of the main features on Huawei phones, not a niche feature. Even on my little Honor 10.

    I didn't ask this question last week simply because I thought the feature was different. Seeing the description here, and noting that the process is virtually identical, prompted me to ask.

    There is no need to go on the defensive.
    Well, as we all know, Huawei cheats on testing, something I notice you failed to respond to when I posted that to you in a different thread. I wouldn’t be surprised if they lie about other things too. Whether you like it or not, Chinese companies are known to be, shall we say, flexible, in their company reports. A tiny picture also says little about the quality of the effect, as most everything looks good in a small size. At any rate, we need a couple of dozen images of different types to get an idea as to how well these features work overall, because one well selected image might be great, while most others may be crap.

    aperture mode has to prove itself. Samsung also has a variable aperture, but images using it are no better than those not using it. We’ve also seen a coup,e of phones using two cameras, one taking luminance images, and the other using color images. Supposedly, much better images result. And indeed, the marketing images shown did look pretty good. But when the phones were out in the “wild”, it turned out that the images were pretty bad. These gimmicks rarely work.

    and yes, that evaluation goes for all phones.
    I responded to the Huawei benchmark (and the DSLR) news the very first time it was mentioned here. I responded clearly and openly and was critical of the behaviour. You missed it, it seems.

    You will forgive me for simply passing on the subsequent comments which are simply cheap shots aimed at the company - as a whole - because those comments are simply absurd, as the company as a whole is massive and far removed from the areas involved.

    So when people start questioning the likes of HiSilicon, or the results of the imaging division or battery research - as you yourself did not long ago - it is frankly absurd too. I provide links. With all due respect you have simply limited yourself to telling people they are wrong but without offering any supporting information beyond your own knowledge. Would you accept it if I did the same?

    Huawei is a private company but independently audited just like other companies. There is zero reason to question results.

    On the subject at hand, you are now diverging from the feature itself into the quality if the feature. I have no issue with that. It is a valid comment and I agree - to a degree - but that has nothing to do with my point, which is a completely different.

    And if this feature really hasn't existed on an iPhone until now, the quality is irrevelant. Even just 'acceptable' results would be good enough (even if purely hit and miss), if the other option was not having the feature at all.
    "Huawei is a private company but independently audited just like other companies." There is zero reason to question results." I would feel free to question the results of U.S. company audits, so, no, your statement isn't reassuring.

    Huawei ultimately answers to the authoritarian Chinese government, so, yeah, plenty of reasons to question all things Huawei. 

    As for Apple's Portrait Mode blur feature,

    https://www.businessinsider.com/apple-iphone-portrait-mode-explained-2017-10

    "But Apple was the first to popularize portrait mode, and now offers it on the iPhone 7 Plus, iPhone 8 Plus, and iPhone X."

    Seems like you would have been aware of this feature that was released with the iPhone 7 Plus, that requires dual lenses, but you brought it up so that you could post your Huawei talking points. It's been improved in iOS 12, and has migrated to the single lens XR using focus points to determine depth. Whether Apple was first with faux bokeh is less important than that it was delivered fully baked when Apple popularized it with the iPhone 7.

    How's that Mate 20 doing?.

    By the time Huawei releases it, Apple will already have shipped 15 million iPhone's XS/XR, about the same number of units that that you state Huawei will sell in total for the P20 series. Seems like Huawei has a hill to climb to even meet Apple's unit sales this year.

    Maybe next year.
    Thanks for at least providing an answer.

    As for Portrait mode. Your quote uses the word 'popularize', probably because Huawei had dual cameras months before Apple with its very own portrait mode. Apple's stayed in beta for a year. Not fully baked!

    However, I appreciate the answer all the same. But is this article on 'Portait Mode' or something new regarding depth of field in a wider perspective?

    That was part of my doubt. From the article:

    "We've been dying to check out the new controllable aperture feature exclusive to these new phones"

    That doesn't sound like an existing feature.

    That's why I brought it up. It has nothing to do with 'Huawei talking points'.

    As for the Mate 20, who knows!? LOL.

    We'll have to wait and see.


    Controllable synthetic aperture using a f/stop slider is the new feature.

    If this had nothing to do with Huawei talking points, then why even bring it up? It's obvious that the improvements in usability and IQ for the feature are independent of "who came first", which was the point of your post. More to the point, it would have been exceedingly easy to so a bit of research such that you didn't come off as "partisan".

    You said "wait and see" about the X, and state it was an anniversary model, and that it wasn't selling well, all of which were false. I have stated the it was the new design, which is true, that it was Apple's most successful single model, which is also true. It looks obvious that Apple has deprecated TouchID, and that the iPhone 8's will be the last current models with that feature, as well as the "chin".

    So "wait and see" is just your standard denier of Apple success with the iPhone X. 

    The Mate 20 is going to have fair winds for only a short time in the Android OS device market, then competition will hit from Samsung with a reported four S10 models, and the other Android OS device makers, then you will be back with, "but wait until the P30 comes out!". The Kirin 980 will be up against the Samsung Exynos 9880 and the Qualcomm 855, both at 7nm.
    Why bring it up?

    Why not read why I even bothered to explain exactly why I asked about this in the first place? I've repeated it twice in this thread already!

    I did my 'research' and came up blank. It is clear that posters here didn't know either, hence the lack of answers. Probably because it is easy to confuse the two features.

    And to add insult to injury, now, you throw in:

    "Controllable synthetic aperture using a f/stop slider is the new feature"

    Why didn't you say that in your first reply instead of going into a rant on Huawei and mentioning Portrait Mode? 

    It at least, finally, provides a decent answer, so thanks for that.

    As for the rest, you are re-hashing the same false claims as you always do and wanting to take this far off topic. Open up a new thread if you wish and I will correct all of your claims. I will put you straight on every point. Literally. Quotes and all. We will see what I really said and in what context and if your claims are true.
    www.youtube.com/watch?time_continue=59&v=_g8aLVGXyc0

    Depth Control is explained in the video, among other things;

    www.youtube.com/watch?time_continue=59&v=_g8aLVGXyc0

    Perhaps you might have first searched Apple for marketing information on the iPhone X?

    "Coming up blank" isn't really a satisfactory answer to a notably easy search.

    From the Apple XS page, scrolling about half way down;

    Intelligent A12 Bionic.

     

    This is the smartest, most powerful chip in a smartphone, with our next-generation Neural Engine. For amazing augmented reality experiences. Incredible portraits with Depth Control. And speed and fluidity in everything you do.


    edited September 2018 bb-15watto_cobra
  • Reply 74 of 187
    dougddougd Posts: 255member
    What are they going to do for an encore? Meaning next year's phone?

    watto_cobra
  • Reply 75 of 187
    dewmedewme Posts: 2,099member
    melgross said:
    hentaiboy said:
    The bokeh on the iPhone is just appalling:



    Contrast with that of a camera with mechanical aperture:


    First of all, the out of focus for the phone was obviously set to maximum. Take it down a notch and it will look a lot closer.

    second of all, as I’ve pointed out in a couple of photography forums, Bokeh is a totally unnatural effect. Lens bokeh is no more natural, or “right” than computational bokeh.

    the reason should be pretty obvious, but few people think things through to the end. We, that is, our eyes and brain, NEVER see a scene the way a camera does. Just look around, and you’ll realize that we don’t see bokeh. Our brain keeps us focused on what we’re looking at directly, and defocuses our ATTENTION from what we’re not directly looking at. By defocus, I mean lack of ability to make much sense of the peripheral areas. But we don’t see that bokeh with our eyes.

    so bokeh is very unnatural when taken with a camera/lens no matter what. Because of that computational defocus is just as “natural” when compared to our actual vision, as that from a variable aperture lens. And as each lens has different bokeh, and different focal lengths have different bokeh, and different sensor sizes have different bokeh, which one is natural - none of them!
    I agree with your perspective. One additional detail- the human eye’s visual acuity is primarily limited by the optics/receptors in the eye. The structure of the retina, the imaging element of the eye, is such that only a very small portion of the retina, the macula, provides the high resolution/highly focused sensory and full color visual perception in good light. If you experience a structural flaw or damage to your macula, which I have, you will see that it impacts the focus across your entire field of vision due to the optics/receptors in the eye itself, before the brain processes the sensory signals to decide what is worthy of your attention. The “defocusing” outside of what you are focused on is primarily due to the low density of receptors outside of the macula, not by the brain throwing away available sensor data to keep you on task. In very low light situations the macula is largely ineffective because it needs light to work correctly, which is why you have poor acuity and color perception in low light conditions. 
    baconstangwatto_cobra
  • Reply 76 of 187
    dewmedewme Posts: 2,099member
    saarek said:
    24 hours in after switching from an iPhone 6s Plus I’m happy overall, although a few things about the experience really bug me:

    Face ID is shite first thing in the morning, no lying on the pillow activation, even turning my head didn’t work, I had to sit-up a bit to make Face ID work..... I know, I know, first world problem.

    No percentage bar in the corner for the battery, you can only see that in the control view.... come on, I’ve got the XS Max, you could easily put damn numbers in that space!

    Cannot disable the stupid swipe indicator/home bar. Actually as annoying as the battery indicator, why the hell do I have to lose space in apps like safari for a stupid bar, I know how to swipe home already thank you very much!

    The weight, it feels a LOT heavier than my iPhone 6S Plus, I’ll have to look up the specs to know the true difference, but the Mafia could use this thing as a weapon and bludgeon some poor sod to death with it.
    The XS Max weighs 1.27 ounces (41.6 grams) more than the 6 Plus. Not sure what an extra 41.6 grams has on the bludgeoning effectiveness of the Max versus a 6 Plus, but you never know. On the bright side, the extra weight may help add some definition and tone to your phone arm. 
    watto_cobra
  • Reply 77 of 187
    nhtnht Posts: 4,487member
    tmay said:

    You said "wait and see" about the X, and state it was an anniversary model, and that it wasn't selling well, all of which were false. I have stated the it was the new design, which is true, that it was Apple's most successful single model, which is also true. It looks obvious that Apple has deprecated TouchID, and that the iPhone 8's will be the last current models with that feature, as well as the "chin".

    So "wait and see" is just your standard denier of Apple success with the iPhone X. 

    No, no...that's him being "fair" and "conservative".  And he's never been wrong.  He said so himself.
    watto_cobra
  • Reply 78 of 187
    tmaytmay Posts: 3,818member
    avon b7 said:
    tmay said:
    avon b7 said:
    tmay said:
    avon b7 said:
    tmay said:
    avon b7 said:
    melgross said:

    avon b7 said:
    tmay said:
    .
    avon b7 said:
    Is there a difference between the camera mode you are describing and what Huawei phones have done for years?

    The reason I ask is that when they announced the feature I automatically assumed it would be different but what you describe is practically identical to how Huawei phones have operated since the P9. I thought it was already possible on Apple's dual lens phones.

    ....

    Or is not so much what it does as how it does it?
    Huawei? Who cares. Do major US network carriers even carry that pos?
    So you assume that rest of the world does not matter, huh? Arrogance like that does not pay of. Huiwaei dominates markets elswhere and perhaps instead of being arrogant you may need reality check that those phones as well as Samsung dominate in Europe and Apple iPhone is nowhere near. You should star caring because on competitive markets other vendors build solutions that Apple follows (not leads) and some brainwash seems to be out there that Apple is the only innovator. The fact is that Apple came with few features 9(like biometrics) later than Samsung for example, but Samsung never claimed it was copied by Apple so you assume that Apple was first. Instead of reading only Apple news maye be you should start tracking general technology state. You would be surprized what you did not know and assumed that only one vendor innovates.

    Yes we do care about Huwaei, Samsung, LG and Google. Some pople did not review some features and thise dominant on other markets companies already have some stuff that nobody seems here to have a clue about. On top of that some of it is far more practical. Some even say that Pixel 2 photo quality is now top on the market - not Apple iPhones. there will be those now claimin that Aperture mode is so innovative. Well on phones it alreay exist, and it was used on SLR cameras (I used it for years) for decades now. It just got squeezed into smaller package - nothing else.
    I'll post this link;

    https://www.ped30.com/2018/09/20/counterpoint-regions-apple-iphone/

    Apple doesn't have an iPhone under $449, though there may be lower cost models manufacturer for India.

    Seriously, do you think that this data makes Apple look bad?

    Sure, Apple doesn't cater at all to the under $400 market, where the bulk of Huawei's sales are, but I will state that it is likely that Apple will sell a similar number of XS and XS Max units World Wide by the end of this month, as Huawei has sold of the P20 series since its March release. The P20 Pro isn't a great seller, although Avon B7 has tried to portray it as a great success, with pretty flakey data. Maybe it is. Nonetheless, is a likelihood that Apple will sell 80 to 85 million iPhones next quarter, and about 70% of those, will be the X models.

    Being first with niche features is a fool's game, but appropriate for the Android OS device market, where any differentiation at all is a huge marketing necessity. That's likely why we see mostly unbaked innovation in these devices first. Apple, works off of internal roadmap, so these companies, and their customers, as guinea pigs for new features is actually savvy.

    Flakey data?

    Niche features?

    The data on P20 Series sales came straight from Huawei. Official numbers. It has been a massive success.

    Aperture Mode is one of the main features on Huawei phones, not a niche feature. Even on my little Honor 10.

    I didn't ask this question last week simply because I thought the feature was different. Seeing the description here, and noting that the process is virtually identical, prompted me to ask.

    There is no need to go on the defensive.
    Well, as we all know, Huawei cheats on testing, something I notice you failed to respond to when I posted that to you in a different thread. I wouldn’t be surprised if they lie about other things too. Whether you like it or not, Chinese companies are known to be, shall we say, flexible, in their company reports. A tiny picture also says little about the quality of the effect, as most everything looks good in a small size. At any rate, we need a couple of dozen images of different types to get an idea as to how well these features work overall, because one well selected image might be great, while most others may be crap.

    aperture mode has to prove itself. Samsung also has a variable aperture, but images using it are no better than those not using it. We’ve also seen a coup,e of phones using two cameras, one taking luminance images, and the other using color images. Supposedly, much better images result. And indeed, the marketing images shown did look pretty good. But when the phones were out in the “wild”, it turned out that the images were pretty bad. These gimmicks rarely work.

    and yes, that evaluation goes for all phones.
    I responded to the Huawei benchmark (and the DSLR) news the very first time it was mentioned here. I responded clearly and openly and was critical of the behaviour. You missed it, it seems.

    You will forgive me for simply passing on the subsequent comments which are simply cheap shots aimed at the company - as a whole - because those comments are simply absurd, as the company as a whole is massive and far removed from the areas involved.

    So when people start questioning the likes of HiSilicon, or the results of the imaging division or battery research - as you yourself did not long ago - it is frankly absurd too. I provide links. With all due respect you have simply limited yourself to telling people they are wrong but without offering any supporting information beyond your own knowledge. Would you accept it if I did the same?

    Huawei is a private company but independently audited just like other companies. There is zero reason to question results.

    On the subject at hand, you are now diverging from the feature itself into the quality if the feature. I have no issue with that. It is a valid comment and I agree - to a degree - but that has nothing to do with my point, which is a completely different.

    And if this feature really hasn't existed on an iPhone until now, the quality is irrevelant. Even just 'acceptable' results would be good enough (even if purely hit and miss), if the other option was not having the feature at all.
    "Huawei is a private company but independently audited just like other companies." There is zero reason to question results." I would feel free to question the results of U.S. company audits, so, no, your statement isn't reassuring.

    Huawei ultimately answers to the authoritarian Chinese government, so, yeah, plenty of reasons to question all things Huawei. 

    As for Apple's Portrait Mode blur feature,

    https://www.businessinsider.com/apple-iphone-portrait-mode-explained-2017-10

    "But Apple was the first to popularize portrait mode, and now offers it on the iPhone 7 Plus, iPhone 8 Plus, and iPhone X."

    Seems like you would have been aware of this feature that was released with the iPhone 7 Plus, that requires dual lenses, but you brought it up so that you could post your Huawei talking points. It's been improved in iOS 12, and has migrated to the single lens XR using focus points to determine depth. Whether Apple was first with faux bokeh is less important than that it was delivered fully baked when Apple popularized it with the iPhone 7.

    How's that Mate 20 doing?.

    By the time Huawei releases it, Apple will already have shipped 15 million iPhone's XS/XR, about the same number of units that that you state Huawei will sell in total for the P20 series. Seems like Huawei has a hill to climb to even meet Apple's unit sales this year.

    Maybe next year.
    Thanks for at least providing an answer.

    As for Portrait mode. Your quote uses the word 'popularize', probably because Huawei had dual cameras months before Apple with its very own portrait mode. Apple's stayed in beta for a year. Not fully baked!

    However, I appreciate the answer all the same. But is this article on 'Portait Mode' or something new regarding depth of field in a wider perspective?

    That was part of my doubt. From the article:

    "We've been dying to check out the new controllable aperture feature exclusive to these new phones"

    That doesn't sound like an existing feature.

    That's why I brought it up. It has nothing to do with 'Huawei talking points'.

    As for the Mate 20, who knows!? LOL.

    We'll have to wait and see.


    Controllable synthetic aperture using a f/stop slider is the new feature.

    If this had nothing to do with Huawei talking points, then why even bring it up? It's obvious that the improvements in usability and IQ for the feature are independent of "who came first", which was the point of your post. More to the point, it would have been exceedingly easy to so a bit of research such that you didn't come off as "partisan".

    You said "wait and see" about the X, and state it was an anniversary model, and that it wasn't selling well, all of which were false. I have stated the it was the new design, which is true, that it was Apple's most successful single model, which is also true. It looks obvious that Apple has deprecated TouchID, and that the iPhone 8's will be the last current models with that feature, as well as the "chin".

    So "wait and see" is just your standard denier of Apple success with the iPhone X. 

    The Mate 20 is going to have fair winds for only a short time in the Android OS device market, then competition will hit from Samsung with a reported four S10 models, and the other Android OS device makers, then you will be back with, "but wait until the P30 comes out!". The Kirin 980 will be up against the Samsung Exynos 9880 and the Qualcomm 855, both at 7nm.
    Why bring it up?

    Why not read why I even bothered to explain exactly why I asked about this in the first place? I've repeated it twice in this thread already!

    I did my 'research' and came up blank. It is clear that posters here didn't know either, hence the lack of answers. Probably because it is easy to confuse the two features.

    And to add insult to injury, now, you throw in:

    "Controllable synthetic aperture using a f/stop slider is the new feature"

    Why didn't you say that in your first reply instead of going into a rant on Huawei and mentioning Portrait Mode? 

    It at least, finally, provides a decent answer, so thanks for that.

    As for the rest, you are re-hashing the same false claims as you always do and wanting to take this far off topic. Open up a new thread if you wish and I will correct all of your claims. I will put you straight on every point. Literally. Quotes and all. We will see what I really said and in what context and if your claims are true.
    www.youtube.com/watch?time_continue=59&v=_g8aLVGXyc0

    Depth Control is explained in the video, among other things;

    www.youtube.com/watch?time_continue=59&v=_g8aLVGXyc0

    Perhaps you might have first searched Apple for marketing information on the iPhone X?

    "Coming up blank" isn't really a satisfactory answer to a notably easy search.

    From the Apple XS page, scrolling about half way down;

    Intelligent A12 Bionic.

     

    This is the smartest, most powerful chip in a smartphone, with our next-generation Neural Engine. For amazing augmented reality experiences. Incredible portraits with Depth Control. And speed and fluidity in everything you do.


    So why the diversion into your portrait mode answer? Why didn't you go straight to the point if you had the answer?


    I knew how it operated as I had seen it during the event stream, it's part of Portrait Mode and will be available as an update this fall, but didn't know what it was called, and as it requires hardware of the new models; my iPhone 7 doesn't support it. So, with the exception that the extra functionality is called Depth Control, I gave you all of the information previously. 

    I looked that up after I posted, but doesn't change the fact that you didn't even attempt to figure that out yourself, and still haven't, I would guess. 

    So now, you feel entitled to blame me, because you are either too inept to do a simple search to figure it out yourself, or too lazy, or you're afraid of all things Apple.

    edited September 2018 StrangeDayswatto_cobra
  • Reply 79 of 187
    avon b7 said:
    avon b7 said:
    tmay said:
    avon b7 said:
    tmay said:
    .
    avon b7 said:
    Is there a difference between the camera mode you are describing and what Huawei phones have done for years?

    The reason I ask is that when they announced the feature I automatically assumed it would be different but what you describe is practically identical to how Huawei phones have operated since the P9. I thought it was already possible on Apple's dual lens phones.

    ....

    Or is not so much what it does as how it does it?
    Huawei? Who cares. Do major US network carriers even carry that pos?
    So you assume that rest of the world does not matter, huh? Arrogance like that does not pay of. Huiwaei dominates markets elswhere and perhaps instead of being arrogant you may need reality check that those phones as well as Samsung dominate in Europe and Apple iPhone is nowhere near. You should star caring because on competitive markets other vendors build solutions that Apple follows (not leads) and some brainwash seems to be out there that Apple is the only innovator. The fact is that Apple came with few features 9(like biometrics) later than Samsung for example, but Samsung never claimed it was copied by Apple so you assume that Apple was first. Instead of reading only Apple news maye be you should start tracking general technology state. You would be surprized what you did not know and assumed that only one vendor innovates.

    Yes we do care about Huwaei, Samsung, LG and Google. Some pople did not review some features and thise dominant on other markets companies already have some stuff that nobody seems here to have a clue about. On top of that some of it is far more practical. Some even say that Pixel 2 photo quality is now top on the market - not Apple iPhones. there will be those now claimin that Aperture mode is so innovative. Well on phones it alreay exist, and it was used on SLR cameras (I used it for years) for decades now. It just got squeezed into smaller package - nothing else.
    I'll post this link;

    https://www.ped30.com/2018/09/20/counterpoint-regions-apple-iphone/

    Apple doesn't have an iPhone under $449, though there may be lower cost models manufacturer for India.

    Seriously, do you think that this data makes Apple look bad?

    Sure, Apple doesn't cater at all to the under $400 market, where the bulk of Huawei's sales are, but I will state that it is likely that Apple will sell a similar number of XS and XS Max units World Wide by the end of this month, as Huawei has sold of the P20 series since its March release. The P20 Pro isn't a great seller, although Avon B7 has tried to portray it as a great success, with pretty flakey data. Maybe it is. Nonetheless, is a likelihood that Apple will sell 80 to 85 million iPhones next quarter, and about 70% of those, will be the X models.

    Being first with niche features is a fool's game, but appropriate for the Android OS device market, where any differentiation at all is a huge marketing necessity. That's likely why we see mostly unbaked innovation in these devices first. Apple, works off of internal roadmap, so these companies, and their customers, as guinea pigs for new features is actually savvy.

    Flakey data?

    Niche features?

    The data on P20 Series sales came straight from Huawei. Official numbers. It has been a massive success.

    Aperture Mode is one of the main features on Huawei phones, not a niche feature. Even on my little Honor 10.

    I didn't ask this question last week simply because I thought the feature was different. Seeing the description here, and noting that the process is virtually identical, prompted me to ask.

    There is no need to go on the defensive.

    From the same company that lies about benchmarks?

    So please enlighten us. How many P20 or P20 Pro phones has Huawei sold? Why say "massive success" without backing it up with hard data?


    Edited: Funny, I went over to Geekbench and don't see any benchmarks for the P20 or P20 Pro anywhere. Geekbench is useful for one other thing besides benchmarks. They require a minimum number of tests before a device gets listed in their charts. This is why you won't see a device in their charts until some time after it launches and enough people have tested it. The Note 9 is also another device that hasn't hit the charts yet, and like last year, I expect it will show up shortly. The iPhone XS and XS Max have both already shown up, meaning there have been a LOT of sales of these devices. And like in years past, the latest iPhone usually shows up a day or two after release.

    I'm REALLY curious why the P20/Pro aren't listed. My guess is it hasn't sold as well as Huawei claims.
    Huawei had four devices banned for cheating, so whatever data was there, is now gone.

    I know 3DMark removed four Huawei devices, but I haven't heard of anyone else removing them (such as Geekbench).
    I don't ever visit benchmarking sites so I can't comment on that but 3DMark will reinstate the results in the coming weeks it seems. Huawei will allow users to activate performance mode. Once that is in place, the results should be re-listed.

    So Huawei is going to label a specific mode and call it "Performance Mode"? Why not call it what it is: "Battery Hogging Overclocking Excess Heat Generating Can Only Run For A Couple Minutes Mode".
    Which is precisely why I give preference to real world usage over benchmarks. I do think benchmarks play a role though.

    As for the name, I suppose it is at least apt in this context.

    Benchmarks are very important. Provided everyone plays by the same rules. I guarantee you when Anandtech (or any reputable site) tests a Huawei phone and lists the results they're going to test it in "Normal Mode" and NOT in "Performance Mode". You claim "real world usage" matters. If that's true, then what's the point of "Performance Mode"? You'd never be able to use this in the "real world", so why is it even included?

    Further, Android itself doesn't even have any Apps that can take advantage of modern processors in phones. So having a fast SoC in any Huawei (or Samsung or LG or Pixel) phone is kinda pointless since it never really gets used. Which makes "Performance Mode" even less relevant than it already is.
    The only purpose of “performance mode” is to save face after being caught cheating. It’s a chinese thing. 
    edited September 2018 ericthehalfbeeradarthekatwatto_cobra
  • Reply 80 of 187
    avon b7 said:
    tmay said:
    avon b7 said:
    tmay said:
    avon b7 said:
    melgross said:

    avon b7 said:
    tmay said:
    .
    avon b7 said:
    Is there a difference between the camera mode you are describing and what Huawei phones have done for years?

    The reason I ask is that when they announced the feature I automatically assumed it would be different but what you describe is practically identical to how Huawei phones have operated since the P9. I thought it was already possible on Apple's dual lens phones.

    ....

    Or is not so much what it does as how it does it?
    Huawei? Who cares. Do major US network carriers even carry that pos?
    So you assume that rest of the world does not matter, huh? Arrogance like that does not pay of. Huiwaei dominates markets elswhere and perhaps instead of being arrogant you may need reality check that those phones as well as Samsung dominate in Europe and Apple iPhone is nowhere near. You should star caring because on competitive markets other vendors build solutions that Apple follows (not leads) and some brainwash seems to be out there that Apple is the only innovator. The fact is that Apple came with few features 9(like biometrics) later than Samsung for example, but Samsung never claimed it was copied by Apple so you assume that Apple was first. Instead of reading only Apple news maye be you should start tracking general technology state. You would be surprized what you did not know and assumed that only one vendor innovates.

    Yes we do care about Huwaei, Samsung, LG and Google. Some pople did not review some features and thise dominant on other markets companies already have some stuff that nobody seems here to have a clue about. On top of that some of it is far more practical. Some even say that Pixel 2 photo quality is now top on the market - not Apple iPhones. there will be those now claimin that Aperture mode is so innovative. Well on phones it alreay exist, and it was used on SLR cameras (I used it for years) for decades now. It just got squeezed into smaller package - nothing else.
    I'll post this link;

    https://www.ped30.com/2018/09/20/counterpoint-regions-apple-iphone/

    Apple doesn't have an iPhone under $449, though there may be lower cost models manufacturer for India.

    Seriously, do you think that this data makes Apple look bad?

    Sure, Apple doesn't cater at all to the under $400 market, where the bulk of Huawei's sales are, but I will state that it is likely that Apple will sell a similar number of XS and XS Max units World Wide by the end of this month, as Huawei has sold of the P20 series since its March release. The P20 Pro isn't a great seller, although Avon B7 has tried to portray it as a great success, with pretty flakey data. Maybe it is. Nonetheless, is a likelihood that Apple will sell 80 to 85 million iPhones next quarter, and about 70% of those, will be the X models.

    Being first with niche features is a fool's game, but appropriate for the Android OS device market, where any differentiation at all is a huge marketing necessity. That's likely why we see mostly unbaked innovation in these devices first. Apple, works off of internal roadmap, so these companies, and their customers, as guinea pigs for new features is actually savvy.

    Flakey data?

    Niche features?

    The data on P20 Series sales came straight from Huawei. Official numbers. It has been a massive success.

    Aperture Mode is one of the main features on Huawei phones, not a niche feature. Even on my little Honor 10.

    I didn't ask this question last week simply because I thought the feature was different. Seeing the description here, and noting that the process is virtually identical, prompted me to ask.

    There is no need to go on the defensive.
    Well, as we all know, Huawei cheats on testing, something I notice you failed to respond to when I posted that to you in a different thread. I wouldn’t be surprised if they lie about other things too. Whether you like it or not, Chinese companies are known to be, shall we say, flexible, in their company reports. A tiny picture also says little about the quality of the effect, as most everything looks good in a small size. At any rate, we need a couple of dozen images of different types to get an idea as to how well these features work overall, because one well selected image might be great, while most others may be crap.

    aperture mode has to prove itself. Samsung also has a variable aperture, but images using it are no better than those not using it. We’ve also seen a coup,e of phones using two cameras, one taking luminance images, and the other using color images. Supposedly, much better images result. And indeed, the marketing images shown did look pretty good. But when the phones were out in the “wild”, it turned out that the images were pretty bad. These gimmicks rarely work.

    and yes, that evaluation goes for all phones.
    I responded to the Huawei benchmark (and the DSLR) news the very first time it was mentioned here. I responded clearly and openly and was critical of the behaviour. You missed it, it seems.

    You will forgive me for simply passing on the subsequent comments which are simply cheap shots aimed at the company - as a whole - because those comments are simply absurd, as the company as a whole is massive and far removed from the areas involved.

    So when people start questioning the likes of HiSilicon, or the results of the imaging division or battery research - as you yourself did not long ago - it is frankly absurd too. I provide links. With all due respect you have simply limited yourself to telling people they are wrong but without offering any supporting information beyond your own knowledge. Would you accept it if I did the same?

    Huawei is a private company but independently audited just like other companies. There is zero reason to question results.

    On the subject at hand, you are now diverging from the feature itself into the quality if the feature. I have no issue with that. It is a valid comment and I agree - to a degree - but that has nothing to do with my point, which is a completely different.

    And if this feature really hasn't existed on an iPhone until now, the quality is irrevelant. Even just 'acceptable' results would be good enough (even if purely hit and miss), if the other option was not having the feature at all.
    "Huawei is a private company but independently audited just like other companies." There is zero reason to question results." I would feel free to question the results of U.S. company audits, so, no, your statement isn't reassuring.

    Huawei ultimately answers to the authoritarian Chinese government, so, yeah, plenty of reasons to question all things Huawei. 

    As for Apple's Portrait Mode blur feature,

    https://www.businessinsider.com/apple-iphone-portrait-mode-explained-2017-10

    "But Apple was the first to popularize portrait mode, and now offers it on the iPhone 7 Plus, iPhone 8 Plus, and iPhone X."

    Seems like you would have been aware of this feature that was released with the iPhone 7 Plus, that requires dual lenses, but you brought it up so that you could post your Huawei talking points. It's been improved in iOS 12, and has migrated to the single lens XR using focus points to determine depth. Whether Apple was first with faux bokeh is less important than that it was delivered fully baked when Apple popularized it with the iPhone 7.

    How's that Mate 20 doing?.

    By the time Huawei releases it, Apple will already have shipped 15 million iPhone's XS/XR, about the same number of units that that you state Huawei will sell in total for the P20 series. Seems like Huawei has a hill to climb to even meet Apple's unit sales this year.

    Maybe next year.
    Thanks for at least providing an answer.

    As for Portrait mode. Your quote uses the word 'popularize', probably because Huawei had dual cameras months before Apple with its very own portrait mode. Apple's stayed in beta for a year. Not fully baked!

    However, I appreciate the answer all the same. But is this article on 'Portait Mode' or something new regarding depth of field in a wider perspective?

    That was part of my doubt. From the article:

    "We've been dying to check out the new controllable aperture feature exclusive to these new phones"

    That doesn't sound like an existing feature.

    That's why I brought it up. It has nothing to do with 'Huawei talking points'.

    As for the Mate 20, who knows!? LOL.

    We'll have to wait and see.


    Controllable synthetic aperture using a f/stop slider is the new feature.

    If this had nothing to do with Huawei talking points, then why even bring it up? It's obvious that the improvements in usability and IQ for the feature are independent of "who came first", which was the point of your post. More to the point, it would have been exceedingly easy to so a bit of research such that you didn't come off as "partisan".

    You said "wait and see" about the X, and state it was an anniversary model, and that it wasn't selling well, all of which were false. I have stated the it was the new design, which is true, that it was Apple's most successful single model, which is also true. It looks obvious that Apple has deprecated TouchID, and that the iPhone 8's will be the last current models with that feature, as well as the "chin".

    So "wait and see" is just your standard denier of Apple success with the iPhone X. 

    The Mate 20 is going to have fair winds for only a short time in the Android OS device market, then competition will hit from Samsung with a reported four S10 models, and the other Android OS device makers, then you will be back with, "but wait until the P30 comes out!". The Kirin 980 will be up against the Samsung Exynos 9880 and the Qualcomm 855, both at 7nm.
    Why bring it up?

    Why not read why I even bothered to explain exactly why I asked about this in the first place? I've repeated it twice in this thread already!

    I did my 'research' and came up blank. It is clear that posters here didn't know either, hence the lack of answers. P
    Or, that people know a troll when they see one and are sick of your predictable, boring song and dance. You’re worse than google-guy was. 
    tmayradarthekatwatto_cobra
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