Hands on: Apple's iPhone XS and XS Max are gorgeous, and a boon for photographers

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Comments

  • Reply 81 of 187
    tmay said:
    avon b7 said:
    tmay said:
    avon b7 said:
    tmay said:
    avon b7 said:
    tmay said:
    avon b7 said:
    melgross said:

    avon b7 said:
    tmay said:
    .
    avon b7 said:
    Is there a difference between the camera mode you are describing and what Huawei phones have done for years?

    The reason I ask is that when they announced the feature I automatically assumed it would be different but what you describe is practically identical to how Huawei phones have operated since the P9. I thought it was already possible on Apple's dual lens phones.

    ....

    Or is not so much what it does as how it does it?
    Huawei? Who cares. Do major US network carriers even carry that pos?
    So you assume that rest of the world does not matter, huh? Arrogance like that does not pay of. Huiwaei dominates markets elswhere and perhaps instead of being arrogant you may need reality check that those phones as well as Samsung dominate in Europe and Apple iPhone is nowhere near. You should star caring because on competitive markets other vendors build solutions that Apple follows (not leads) and some brainwash seems to be out there that Apple is the only innovator. The fact is that Apple came with few features 9(like biometrics) later than Samsung for example, but Samsung never claimed it was copied by Apple so you assume that Apple was first. Instead of reading only Apple news maye be you should start tracking general technology state. You would be surprized what you did not know and assumed that only one vendor innovates.

    Yes we do care about Huwaei, Samsung, LG and Google. Some pople did not review some features and thise dominant on other markets companies already have some stuff that nobody seems here to have a clue about. On top of that some of it is far more practical. Some even say that Pixel 2 photo quality is now top on the market - not Apple iPhones. there will be those now claimin that Aperture mode is so innovative. Well on phones it alreay exist, and it was used on SLR cameras (I used it for years) for decades now. It just got squeezed into smaller package - nothing else.
    I'll post this link;

    https://www.ped30.com/2018/09/20/counterpoint-regions-apple-iphone/

    Apple doesn't have an iPhone under $449, though there may be lower cost models manufacturer for India.

    Seriously, do you think that this data makes Apple look bad?

    Sure, Apple doesn't cater at all to the under $400 market, where the bulk of Huawei's sales are, but I will state that it is likely that Apple will sell a similar number of XS and XS Max units World Wide by the end of this month, as Huawei has sold of the P20 series since its March release. The P20 Pro isn't a great seller, although Avon B7 has tried to portray it as a great success, with pretty flakey data. Maybe it is. Nonetheless, is a likelihood that Apple will sell 80 to 85 million iPhones next quarter, and about 70% of those, will be the X models.

    Being first with niche features is a fool's game, but appropriate for the Android OS device market, where any differentiation at all is a huge marketing necessity. That's likely why we see mostly unbaked innovation in these devices first. Apple, works off of internal roadmap, so these companies, and their customers, as guinea pigs for new features is actually savvy.

    Flakey data?

    Niche features?

    The data on P20 Series sales came straight from Huawei. Official numbers. It has been a massive success.

    Aperture Mode is one of the main features on Huawei phones, not a niche feature. Even on my little Honor 10.

    I didn't ask this question last week simply because I thought the feature was different. Seeing the description here, and noting that the process is virtually identical, prompted me to ask.

    There is no need to go on the defensive.
    Well, as we all know, Huawei cheats on testing, something I notice you failed to respond to when I posted that to you in a different thread. I wouldn’t be surprised if they lie about other things too. Whether you like it or not, Chinese companies are known to be, shall we say, flexible, in their company reports. A tiny picture also says little about the quality of the effect, as most everything looks good in a small size. At any rate, we need a couple of dozen images of different types to get an idea as to how well these features work overall, because one well selected image might be great, while most others may be crap.

    aperture mode has to prove itself. Samsung also has a variable aperture, but images using it are no better than those not using it. We’ve also seen a coup,e of phones using two cameras, one taking luminance images, and the other using color images. Supposedly, much better images result. And indeed, the marketing images shown did look pretty good. But when the phones were out in the “wild”, it turned out that the images were pretty bad. These gimmicks rarely work.

    and yes, that evaluation goes for all phones.
    I responded to the Huawei benchmark (and the DSLR) news the very first time it was mentioned here. I responded clearly and openly and was critical of the behaviour. You missed it, it seems.

    You will forgive me for simply passing on the subsequent comments which are simply cheap shots aimed at the company - as a whole - because those comments are simply absurd, as the company as a whole is massive and far removed from the areas involved.

    So when people start questioning the likes of HiSilicon, or the results of the imaging division or battery research - as you yourself did not long ago - it is frankly absurd too. I provide links. With all due respect you have simply limited yourself to telling people they are wrong but without offering any supporting information beyond your own knowledge. Would you accept it if I did the same?

    Huawei is a private company but independently audited just like other companies. There is zero reason to question results.

    On the subject at hand, you are now diverging from the feature itself into the quality if the feature. I have no issue with that. It is a valid comment and I agree - to a degree - but that has nothing to do with my point, which is a completely different.

    And if this feature really hasn't existed on an iPhone until now, the quality is irrevelant. Even just 'acceptable' results would be good enough (even if purely hit and miss), if the other option was not having the feature at all.
    "Huawei is a private company but independently audited just like other companies." There is zero reason to question results." I would feel free to question the results of U.S. company audits, so, no, your statement isn't reassuring.

    Huawei ultimately answers to the authoritarian Chinese government, so, yeah, plenty of reasons to question all things Huawei. 

    As for Apple's Portrait Mode blur feature,

    https://www.businessinsider.com/apple-iphone-portrait-mode-explained-2017-10

    "But Apple was the first to popularize portrait mode, and now offers it on the iPhone 7 Plus, iPhone 8 Plus, and iPhone X."

    Seems like you would have been aware of this feature that was released with the iPhone 7 Plus, that requires dual lenses, but you brought it up so that you could post your Huawei talking points. It's been improved in iOS 12, and has migrated to the single lens XR using focus points to determine depth. Whether Apple was first with faux bokeh is less important than that it was delivered fully baked when Apple popularized it with the iPhone 7.

    How's that Mate 20 doing?.

    By the time Huawei releases it, Apple will already have shipped 15 million iPhone's XS/XR, about the same number of units that that you state Huawei will sell in total for the P20 series. Seems like Huawei has a hill to climb to even meet Apple's unit sales this year.

    Maybe next year.
    Thanks for at least providing an answer.

    As for Portrait mode. Your quote uses the word 'popularize', probably because Huawei had dual cameras months before Apple with its very own portrait mode. Apple's stayed in beta for a year. Not fully baked!

    However, I appreciate the answer all the same. But is this article on 'Portait Mode' or something new regarding depth of field in a wider perspective?

    That was part of my doubt. From the article:

    "We've been dying to check out the new controllable aperture feature exclusive to these new phones"

    That doesn't sound like an existing feature.

    That's why I brought it up. It has nothing to do with 'Huawei talking points'.

    As for the Mate 20, who knows!? LOL.

    We'll have to wait and see.


    Controllable synthetic aperture using a f/stop slider is the new feature.

    If this had nothing to do with Huawei talking points, then why even bring it up? It's obvious that the improvements in usability and IQ for the feature are independent of "who came first", which was the point of your post. More to the point, it would have been exceedingly easy to so a bit of research such that you didn't come off as "partisan".

    You said "wait and see" about the X, and state it was an anniversary model, and that it wasn't selling well, all of which were false. I have stated the it was the new design, which is true, that it was Apple's most successful single model, which is also true. It looks obvious that Apple has deprecated TouchID, and that the iPhone 8's will be the last current models with that feature, as well as the "chin".

    So "wait and see" is just your standard denier of Apple success with the iPhone X. 

    The Mate 20 is going to have fair winds for only a short time in the Android OS device market, then competition will hit from Samsung with a reported four S10 models, and the other Android OS device makers, then you will be back with, "but wait until the P30 comes out!". The Kirin 980 will be up against the Samsung Exynos 9880 and the Qualcomm 855, both at 7nm.
    Why bring it up?

    Why not read why I even bothered to explain exactly why I asked about this in the first place? I've repeated it twice in this thread already!

    I did my 'research' and came up blank. It is clear that posters here didn't know either, hence the lack of answers. Probably because it is easy to confuse the two features.

    And to add insult to injury, now, you throw in:

    "Controllable synthetic aperture using a f/stop slider is the new feature"

    Why didn't you say that in your first reply instead of going into a rant on Huawei and mentioning Portrait Mode? 

    It at least, finally, provides a decent answer, so thanks for that.

    As for the rest, you are re-hashing the same false claims as you always do and wanting to take this far off topic. Open up a new thread if you wish and I will correct all of your claims. I will put you straight on every point. Literally. Quotes and all. We will see what I really said and in what context and if your claims are true.
    www.youtube.com/watch?time_continue=59&v=_g8aLVGXyc0

    Depth Control is explained in the video, among other things;

    www.youtube.com/watch?time_continue=59&v=_g8aLVGXyc0

    Perhaps you might have first searched Apple for marketing information on the iPhone X?

    "Coming up blank" isn't really a satisfactory answer to a notably easy search.

    From the Apple XS page, scrolling about half way down;

    Intelligent A12 Bionic.

     

    This is the smartest, most powerful chip in a smartphone, with our next-generation Neural Engine. For amazing augmented reality experiences. Incredible portraits with Depth Control. And speed and fluidity in everything you do.


    So why the diversion into your portrait mode answer? Why didn't you go straight to the point if you had the answer?


    I knew how it operated as I had seen it during the event stream, it's part of Portrait Mode and will be available as an update this fall, but didn't know what it was called, and as it requires hardware of the new models; my iPhone 7 doesn't support it. So, with the exception that the extra functionality is called Depth Control, I gave you all of the information previously. 

    I looked that up after I posted, but doesn't change the fact that you didn't even attempt to figure that out yourself, and still haven't, I would guess. 

    So now, you feel entitled to blame me, because you are either too inept to do a simple search to figure it out yourself, or too lazy, or you're afraid of all things Apple.

    Or, he was never interested in the answer and is only interested in dropping FUD pellets everywhere he goes. 
    wonkothesanewatto_cobra
  • Reply 82 of 187
    tmaytmay Posts: 3,817member
    tmay said:
    avon b7 said:
    tmay said:
    avon b7 said:
    tmay said:
    avon b7 said:
    tmay said:
    avon b7 said:
    melgross said:

    avon b7 said:
    tmay said:
    .
    avon b7 said:
    Is there a difference between the camera mode you are describing and what Huawei phones have done for years?

    The reason I ask is that when they announced the feature I automatically assumed it would be different but what you describe is practically identical to how Huawei phones have operated since the P9. I thought it was already possible on Apple's dual lens phones.

    ....

    Or is not so much what it does as how it does it?
    Huawei? Who cares. Do major US network carriers even carry that pos?
    So you assume that rest of the world does not matter, huh? Arrogance like that does not pay of. Huiwaei dominates markets elswhere and perhaps instead of being arrogant you may need reality check that those phones as well as Samsung dominate in Europe and Apple iPhone is nowhere near. You should star caring because on competitive markets other vendors build solutions that Apple follows (not leads) and some brainwash seems to be out there that Apple is the only innovator. The fact is that Apple came with few features 9(like biometrics) later than Samsung for example, but Samsung never claimed it was copied by Apple so you assume that Apple was first. Instead of reading only Apple news maye be you should start tracking general technology state. You would be surprized what you did not know and assumed that only one vendor innovates.

    Yes we do care about Huwaei, Samsung, LG and Google. Some pople did not review some features and thise dominant on other markets companies already have some stuff that nobody seems here to have a clue about. On top of that some of it is far more practical. Some even say that Pixel 2 photo quality is now top on the market - not Apple iPhones. there will be those now claimin that Aperture mode is so innovative. Well on phones it alreay exist, and it was used on SLR cameras (I used it for years) for decades now. It just got squeezed into smaller package - nothing else.
    I'll post this link;

    https://www.ped30.com/2018/09/20/counterpoint-regions-apple-iphone/

    Apple doesn't have an iPhone under $449, though there may be lower cost models manufacturer for India.

    Seriously, do you think that this data makes Apple look bad?

    Sure, Apple doesn't cater at all to the under $400 market, where the bulk of Huawei's sales are, but I will state that it is likely that Apple will sell a similar number of XS and XS Max units World Wide by the end of this month, as Huawei has sold of the P20 series since its March release. The P20 Pro isn't a great seller, although Avon B7 has tried to portray it as a great success, with pretty flakey data. Maybe it is. Nonetheless, is a likelihood that Apple will sell 80 to 85 million iPhones next quarter, and about 70% of those, will be the X models.

    Being first with niche features is a fool's game, but appropriate for the Android OS device market, where any differentiation at all is a huge marketing necessity. That's likely why we see mostly unbaked innovation in these devices first. Apple, works off of internal roadmap, so these companies, and their customers, as guinea pigs for new features is actually savvy.

    Flakey data?

    Niche features?

    The data on P20 Series sales came straight from Huawei. Official numbers. It has been a massive success.

    Aperture Mode is one of the main features on Huawei phones, not a niche feature. Even on my little Honor 10.

    I didn't ask this question last week simply because I thought the feature was different. Seeing the description here, and noting that the process is virtually identical, prompted me to ask.

    There is no need to go on the defensive.
    Well, as we all know, Huawei cheats on testing, something I notice you failed to respond to when I posted that to you in a different thread. I wouldn’t be surprised if they lie about other things too. Whether you like it or not, Chinese companies are known to be, shall we say, flexible, in their company reports. A tiny picture also says little about the quality of the effect, as most everything looks good in a small size. At any rate, we need a couple of dozen images of different types to get an idea as to how well these features work overall, because one well selected image might be great, while most others may be crap.

    aperture mode has to prove itself. Samsung also has a variable aperture, but images using it are no better than those not using it. We’ve also seen a coup,e of phones using two cameras, one taking luminance images, and the other using color images. Supposedly, much better images result. And indeed, the marketing images shown did look pretty good. But when the phones were out in the “wild”, it turned out that the images were pretty bad. These gimmicks rarely work.

    and yes, that evaluation goes for all phones.
    I responded to the Huawei benchmark (and the DSLR) news the very first time it was mentioned here. I responded clearly and openly and was critical of the behaviour. You missed it, it seems.

    You will forgive me for simply passing on the subsequent comments which are simply cheap shots aimed at the company - as a whole - because those comments are simply absurd, as the company as a whole is massive and far removed from the areas involved.

    So when people start questioning the likes of HiSilicon, or the results of the imaging division or battery research - as you yourself did not long ago - it is frankly absurd too. I provide links. With all due respect you have simply limited yourself to telling people they are wrong but without offering any supporting information beyond your own knowledge. Would you accept it if I did the same?

    Huawei is a private company but independently audited just like other companies. There is zero reason to question results.

    On the subject at hand, you are now diverging from the feature itself into the quality if the feature. I have no issue with that. It is a valid comment and I agree - to a degree - but that has nothing to do with my point, which is a completely different.

    And if this feature really hasn't existed on an iPhone until now, the quality is irrevelant. Even just 'acceptable' results would be good enough (even if purely hit and miss), if the other option was not having the feature at all.
    "Huawei is a private company but independently audited just like other companies." There is zero reason to question results." I would feel free to question the results of U.S. company audits, so, no, your statement isn't reassuring.

    Huawei ultimately answers to the authoritarian Chinese government, so, yeah, plenty of reasons to question all things Huawei. 

    As for Apple's Portrait Mode blur feature,

    https://www.businessinsider.com/apple-iphone-portrait-mode-explained-2017-10

    "But Apple was the first to popularize portrait mode, and now offers it on the iPhone 7 Plus, iPhone 8 Plus, and iPhone X."

    Seems like you would have been aware of this feature that was released with the iPhone 7 Plus, that requires dual lenses, but you brought it up so that you could post your Huawei talking points. It's been improved in iOS 12, and has migrated to the single lens XR using focus points to determine depth. Whether Apple was first with faux bokeh is less important than that it was delivered fully baked when Apple popularized it with the iPhone 7.

    How's that Mate 20 doing?.

    By the time Huawei releases it, Apple will already have shipped 15 million iPhone's XS/XR, about the same number of units that that you state Huawei will sell in total for the P20 series. Seems like Huawei has a hill to climb to even meet Apple's unit sales this year.

    Maybe next year.
    Thanks for at least providing an answer.

    As for Portrait mode. Your quote uses the word 'popularize', probably because Huawei had dual cameras months before Apple with its very own portrait mode. Apple's stayed in beta for a year. Not fully baked!

    However, I appreciate the answer all the same. But is this article on 'Portait Mode' or something new regarding depth of field in a wider perspective?

    That was part of my doubt. From the article:

    "We've been dying to check out the new controllable aperture feature exclusive to these new phones"

    That doesn't sound like an existing feature.

    That's why I brought it up. It has nothing to do with 'Huawei talking points'.

    As for the Mate 20, who knows!? LOL.

    We'll have to wait and see.


    Controllable synthetic aperture using a f/stop slider is the new feature.

    If this had nothing to do with Huawei talking points, then why even bring it up? It's obvious that the improvements in usability and IQ for the feature are independent of "who came first", which was the point of your post. More to the point, it would have been exceedingly easy to so a bit of research such that you didn't come off as "partisan".

    You said "wait and see" about the X, and state it was an anniversary model, and that it wasn't selling well, all of which were false. I have stated the it was the new design, which is true, that it was Apple's most successful single model, which is also true. It looks obvious that Apple has deprecated TouchID, and that the iPhone 8's will be the last current models with that feature, as well as the "chin".

    So "wait and see" is just your standard denier of Apple success with the iPhone X. 

    The Mate 20 is going to have fair winds for only a short time in the Android OS device market, then competition will hit from Samsung with a reported four S10 models, and the other Android OS device makers, then you will be back with, "but wait until the P30 comes out!". The Kirin 980 will be up against the Samsung Exynos 9880 and the Qualcomm 855, both at 7nm.
    Why bring it up?

    Why not read why I even bothered to explain exactly why I asked about this in the first place? I've repeated it twice in this thread already!

    I did my 'research' and came up blank. It is clear that posters here didn't know either, hence the lack of answers. Probably because it is easy to confuse the two features.

    And to add insult to injury, now, you throw in:

    "Controllable synthetic aperture using a f/stop slider is the new feature"

    Why didn't you say that in your first reply instead of going into a rant on Huawei and mentioning Portrait Mode? 

    It at least, finally, provides a decent answer, so thanks for that.

    As for the rest, you are re-hashing the same false claims as you always do and wanting to take this far off topic. Open up a new thread if you wish and I will correct all of your claims. I will put you straight on every point. Literally. Quotes and all. We will see what I really said and in what context and if your claims are true.
    www.youtube.com/watch?time_continue=59&v=_g8aLVGXyc0

    Depth Control is explained in the video, among other things;

    www.youtube.com/watch?time_continue=59&v=_g8aLVGXyc0

    Perhaps you might have first searched Apple for marketing information on the iPhone X?

    "Coming up blank" isn't really a satisfactory answer to a notably easy search.

    From the Apple XS page, scrolling about half way down;

    Intelligent A12 Bionic.

     

    This is the smartest, most powerful chip in a smartphone, with our next-generation Neural Engine. For amazing augmented reality experiences. Incredible portraits with Depth Control. And speed and fluidity in everything you do.


    So why the diversion into your portrait mode answer? Why didn't you go straight to the point if you had the answer?


    I knew how it operated as I had seen it during the event stream, it's part of Portrait Mode and will be available as an update this fall, but didn't know what it was called, and as it requires hardware of the new models; my iPhone 7 doesn't support it. So, with the exception that the extra functionality is called Depth Control, I gave you all of the information previously. 

    I looked that up after I posted, but doesn't change the fact that you didn't even attempt to figure that out yourself, and still haven't, I would guess. 

    So now, you feel entitled to blame me, because you are either too inept to do a simple search to figure it out yourself, or too lazy, or you're afraid of all things Apple.

    Or, he was never interested in the answer and is only interested in dropping FUD pellets everywhere he goes. 
    Bingo!
    watto_cobra
  • Reply 83 of 187
    sphericspheric Posts: 1,764member
    captmark said:
    So Apple sells me 2 brand NEW iPhone Xs and sends it with a USB-A cable!! When you sold me a new MBP in January 2017 you told me to switch EVERYTHING to USB-C. I did but you didn't!! Then $5500 for new computers and a $3300 for 2 new phones and they can't be connected to each other until I give Apple another $20 for a cable?? USB-C should have been an option when I purchased my new iPhone!! Or am I expecting to much?
    You connect your phone to...a computer? 

    Why? 

    (Which is to say, of course I get why. But for the vast majority of customers, the only thing they do wired is charge.)
    watto_cobra
  • Reply 84 of 187
    SoliSoli Posts: 8,970member
    tmay said:
    You said "wait and see" about the X, and state it was an anniversary model, and that it wasn't selling well, all of which were false. I have stated the it was the new design, which is true, that it was Apple's most successful single model, which is also true. It looks obvious that Apple has deprecated TouchID, and that the iPhone 8's will be the last current models with that feature, as well as the "chin".

    So "wait and see" is just your standard denier of Apple success with the iPhone X.
    LOL I had forgotten that people were saying the iPhone X look and feel, plus the use of OLED, was only going to a single year release because it's an anniversary model. Was Kuo one of them?
    watto_cobra
  • Reply 85 of 187
    nunzy said:
    Apple now has the best cameras ever made. Professional photographers will not need anything else.

    I defy anybody to see any differences unless the photo is blow up to billboard size.
    While I love the iPhone camera (which is always with me), your comment makes it clear that you haven’t used a quality DLSR.
    baconstangwatto_cobra
  • Reply 86 of 187
    nhtnht Posts: 4,487member
    avon b7 said:
    tmay said:
    avon b7 said:
    tmay said:
    avon b7 said:
    melgross said:

    avon b7 said:
    tmay said:
    .
    avon b7 said:
    Is there a difference between the camera mode you are describing and what Huawei phones have done for years?

    The reason I ask is that when they announced the feature I automatically assumed it would be different but what you describe is practically identical to how Huawei phones have operated since the P9. I thought it was already possible on Apple's dual lens phones.

    ....

    Or is not so much what it does as how it does it?
    Huawei? Who cares. Do major US network carriers even carry that pos?
    So you assume that rest of the world does not matter, huh? Arrogance like that does not pay of. Huiwaei dominates markets elswhere and perhaps instead of being arrogant you may need reality check that those phones as well as Samsung dominate in Europe and Apple iPhone is nowhere near. You should star caring because on competitive markets other vendors build solutions that Apple follows (not leads) and some brainwash seems to be out there that Apple is the only innovator. The fact is that Apple came with few features 9(like biometrics) later than Samsung for example, but Samsung never claimed it was copied by Apple so you assume that Apple was first. Instead of reading only Apple news maye be you should start tracking general technology state. You would be surprized what you did not know and assumed that only one vendor innovates.

    Yes we do care about Huwaei, Samsung, LG and Google. Some pople did not review some features and thise dominant on other markets companies already have some stuff that nobody seems here to have a clue about. On top of that some of it is far more practical. Some even say that Pixel 2 photo quality is now top on the market - not Apple iPhones. there will be those now claimin that Aperture mode is so innovative. Well on phones it alreay exist, and it was used on SLR cameras (I used it for years) for decades now. It just got squeezed into smaller package - nothing else.
    I'll post this link;

    https://www.ped30.com/2018/09/20/counterpoint-regions-apple-iphone/

    Apple doesn't have an iPhone under $449, though there may be lower cost models manufacturer for India.

    Seriously, do you think that this data makes Apple look bad?

    Sure, Apple doesn't cater at all to the under $400 market, where the bulk of Huawei's sales are, but I will state that it is likely that Apple will sell a similar number of XS and XS Max units World Wide by the end of this month, as Huawei has sold of the P20 series since its March release. The P20 Pro isn't a great seller, although Avon B7 has tried to portray it as a great success, with pretty flakey data. Maybe it is. Nonetheless, is a likelihood that Apple will sell 80 to 85 million iPhones next quarter, and about 70% of those, will be the X models.

    Being first with niche features is a fool's game, but appropriate for the Android OS device market, where any differentiation at all is a huge marketing necessity. That's likely why we see mostly unbaked innovation in these devices first. Apple, works off of internal roadmap, so these companies, and their customers, as guinea pigs for new features is actually savvy.

    Flakey data?

    Niche features?

    The data on P20 Series sales came straight from Huawei. Official numbers. It has been a massive success.

    Aperture Mode is one of the main features on Huawei phones, not a niche feature. Even on my little Honor 10.

    I didn't ask this question last week simply because I thought the feature was different. Seeing the description here, and noting that the process is virtually identical, prompted me to ask.

    There is no need to go on the defensive.
    Well, as we all know, Huawei cheats on testing, something I notice you failed to respond to when I posted that to you in a different thread. I wouldn’t be surprised if they lie about other things too. Whether you like it or not, Chinese companies are known to be, shall we say, flexible, in their company reports. A tiny picture also says little about the quality of the effect, as most everything looks good in a small size. At any rate, we need a couple of dozen images of different types to get an idea as to how well these features work overall, because one well selected image might be great, while most others may be crap.

    aperture mode has to prove itself. Samsung also has a variable aperture, but images using it are no better than those not using it. We’ve also seen a coup,e of phones using two cameras, one taking luminance images, and the other using color images. Supposedly, much better images result. And indeed, the marketing images shown did look pretty good. But when the phones were out in the “wild”, it turned out that the images were pretty bad. These gimmicks rarely work.

    and yes, that evaluation goes for all phones.
    I responded to the Huawei benchmark (and the DSLR) news the very first time it was mentioned here. I responded clearly and openly and was critical of the behaviour. You missed it, it seems.

    You will forgive me for simply passing on the subsequent comments which are simply cheap shots aimed at the company - as a whole - because those comments are simply absurd, as the company as a whole is massive and far removed from the areas involved.

    So when people start questioning the likes of HiSilicon, or the results of the imaging division or battery research - as you yourself did not long ago - it is frankly absurd too. I provide links. With all due respect you have simply limited yourself to telling people they are wrong but without offering any supporting information beyond your own knowledge. Would you accept it if I did the same?

    Huawei is a private company but independently audited just like other companies. There is zero reason to question results.

    On the subject at hand, you are now diverging from the feature itself into the quality if the feature. I have no issue with that. It is a valid comment and I agree - to a degree - but that has nothing to do with my point, which is a completely different.

    And if this feature really hasn't existed on an iPhone until now, the quality is irrevelant. Even just 'acceptable' results would be good enough (even if purely hit and miss), if the other option was not having the feature at all.
    "Huawei is a private company but independently audited just like other companies." There is zero reason to question results." I would feel free to question the results of U.S. company audits, so, no, your statement isn't reassuring.

    Huawei ultimately answers to the authoritarian Chinese government, so, yeah, plenty of reasons to question all things Huawei. 

    As for Apple's Portrait Mode blur feature,

    https://www.businessinsider.com/apple-iphone-portrait-mode-explained-2017-10

    "But Apple was the first to popularize portrait mode, and now offers it on the iPhone 7 Plus, iPhone 8 Plus, and iPhone X."

    Seems like you would have been aware of this feature that was released with the iPhone 7 Plus, that requires dual lenses, but you brought it up so that you could post your Huawei talking points. It's been improved in iOS 12, and has migrated to the single lens XR using focus points to determine depth. Whether Apple was first with faux bokeh is less important than that it was delivered fully baked when Apple popularized it with the iPhone 7.

    How's that Mate 20 doing?.

    By the time Huawei releases it, Apple will already have shipped 15 million iPhone's XS/XR, about the same number of units that that you state Huawei will sell in total for the P20 series. Seems like Huawei has a hill to climb to even meet Apple's unit sales this year.

    Maybe next year.
    Thanks for at least providing an answer.

    As for Portrait mode. Your quote uses the word 'popularize', probably because Huawei had dual cameras months before Apple with its very own portrait mode. Apple's stayed in beta for a year. Not fully baked!

    However, I appreciate the answer all the same. But is this article on 'Portait Mode' or something new regarding depth of field in a wider perspective?

    That was part of my doubt. From the article:

    "We've been dying to check out the new controllable aperture feature exclusive to these new phones"

    That doesn't sound like an existing feature.

    That's why I brought it up. It has nothing to do with 'Huawei talking points'.

    As for the Mate 20, who knows!? LOL.

    We'll have to wait and see.


    Controllable synthetic aperture using a f/stop slider is the new feature.

    If this had nothing to do with Huawei talking points, then why even bring it up? It's obvious that the improvements in usability and IQ for the feature are independent of "who came first", which was the point of your post. More to the point, it would have been exceedingly easy to so a bit of research such that you didn't come off as "partisan".

    You said "wait and see" about the X, and state it was an anniversary model, and that it wasn't selling well, all of which were false. I have stated the it was the new design, which is true, that it was Apple's most successful single model, which is also true. It looks obvious that Apple has deprecated TouchID, and that the iPhone 8's will be the last current models with that feature, as well as the "chin".

    So "wait and see" is just your standard denier of Apple success with the iPhone X. 

    The Mate 20 is going to have fair winds for only a short time in the Android OS device market, then competition will hit from Samsung with a reported four S10 models, and the other Android OS device makers, then you will be back with, "but wait until the P30 comes out!". The Kirin 980 will be up against the Samsung Exynos 9880 and the Qualcomm 855, both at 7nm.
    Why bring it up?

    Why not read why I even bothered to explain exactly why I asked about this in the first place? I've repeated it twice in this thread already!

    I did my 'research' and came up blank. It is clear that posters here didn't know either, hence the lack of answers. P
    Or, that people know a troll when they see one and are sick of your predictable, boring song and dance. You’re worse than google-guy was. 
    What happened to google guy?  He seemed too cautious to ever step over the line to something banable
    watto_cobra
  • Reply 87 of 187
    captmark said:
    So Apple sells me 2 brand NEW iPhone Xs and sends it with a USB-A cable!! When you sold me a new MBP in January 2017 you told me to switch EVERYTHING to USB-C. I did but you didn't!! Then $5500 for new computers and $3300 for 2 new phones and they can't be connected to each other until I give Apple another $20 for a cable?? USB-C should have been an option when I purchased my new iPhone!! Or am I expecting to much?
    They can be connected without any cable at all.
    watto_cobra
  • Reply 88 of 187
    avon b7avon b7 Posts: 3,930member
    Soli said:
    tmay said:
    You said "wait and see" about the X, and state it was an anniversary model, and that it wasn't selling well, all of which were false. I have stated the it was the new design, which is true, that it was Apple's most successful single model, which is also true. It looks obvious that Apple has deprecated TouchID, and that the iPhone 8's will be the last current models with that feature, as well as the "chin".

    So "wait and see" is just your standard denier of Apple success with the iPhone X.
    LOL I had forgotten that people were saying the iPhone X look and feel, plus the use of OLED, was only going to a single year release because it's an anniversary model. Was Kuo one of them?
    For me the iPhone X was clearly an anniversary model. Very clearly.

    There was no iPhone 9 (then or now). They said it was the tenth year of iPhone and released iPhone TEN.

    That phone has been retired after a single release cycle.

    Where did people talk about the 'look and feel' in an anniversary sense? AFAIK, they spoke about the model in an anniversary sense.
  • Reply 89 of 187
    I thought the iPhones use a depth map to calculate the distance blur (the way you can do it in Photoshop), I thought it was totally phoney, a digital trick and not at all like the real thing, just similar but lacking the subtlety of ratcheting through real F stops on a DSLR.
    baconstang
  • Reply 90 of 187
    gatorguygatorguy Posts: 20,741member
    Soli said:
    tmay said:
    You said "wait and see" about the X, and state it was an anniversary model, and that it wasn't selling well, all of which were false. I have stated the it was the new design, which is true, that it was Apple's most successful single model, which is also true. It looks obvious that Apple has deprecated TouchID, and that the iPhone 8's will be the last current models with that feature, as well as the "chin".

    So "wait and see" is just your standard denier of Apple success with the iPhone X.
    LOL I had forgotten that people were saying the iPhone X look and feel, plus the use of OLED, was only going to a single year release because it's an anniversary model. Was Kuo one of them?
    I believe Kuo stated early on that the X was going to discontinued and isn't he technically correct? The iPhone X rather than being kept in the lineup, as is typical of Apple, was dropped. It was in fact offered for just a year. I don't recall if Kuo placed the reasoning on slow sales tho. I know some other talking heads did.
    edited September 2018
  • Reply 91 of 187
    tmay said:
    avon b7 said:
    melgross said:

    avon b7 said:
    tmay said:
    .
    avon b7 said:
    Is there a difference between the camera mode you are describing and what Huawei phones have done for years?

    The reason I ask is that when they announced the feature I automatically assumed it would be different but what you describe is practically identical to how Huawei phones have operated since the P9. I thought it was already possible on Apple's dual lens phones.

    ....

    Or is not so much what it does as how it does it?
    Huawei? Who cares. Do major US network carriers even carry that pos?
    So you assume that rest of the world does not matter, huh? Arrogance like that does not pay of. Huiwaei dominates markets elswhere and perhaps instead of being arrogant you may need reality check that those phones as well as Samsung dominate in Europe and Apple iPhone is nowhere near. You should star caring because on competitive markets other vendors build solutions that Apple follows (not leads) and some brainwash seems to be out there that Apple is the only innovator. The fact is that Apple came with few features 9(like biometrics) later than Samsung for example, but Samsung never claimed it was copied by Apple so you assume that Apple was first. Instead of reading only Apple news maye be you should start tracking general technology state. You would be surprized what you did not know and assumed that only one vendor innovates.

    Yes we do care about Huwaei, Samsung, LG and Google. Some pople did not review some features and thise dominant on other markets companies already have some stuff that nobody seems here to have a clue about. On top of that some of it is far more practical. Some even say that Pixel 2 photo quality is now top on the market - not Apple iPhones. there will be those now claimin that Aperture mode is so innovative. Well on phones it alreay exist, and it was used on SLR cameras (I used it for years) for decades now. It just got squeezed into smaller package - nothing else.
    I'll post this link;

    https://www.ped30.com/2018/09/20/counterpoint-regions-apple-iphone/

    Apple doesn't have an iPhone under $449, though there may be lower cost models manufacturer for India.

    Seriously, do you think that this data makes Apple look bad?

    Sure, Apple doesn't cater at all to the under $400 market, where the bulk of Huawei's sales are, but I will state that it is likely that Apple will sell a similar number of XS and XS Max units World Wide by the end of this month, as Huawei has sold of the P20 series since its March release. The P20 Pro isn't a great seller, although Avon B7 has tried to portray it as a great success, with pretty flakey data. Maybe it is. Nonetheless, is a likelihood that Apple will sell 80 to 85 million iPhones next quarter, and about 70% of those, will be the X models.

    Being first with niche features is a fool's game, but appropriate for the Android OS device market, where any differentiation at all is a huge marketing necessity. That's likely why we see mostly unbaked innovation in these devices first. Apple, works off of internal roadmap, so these companies, and their customers, as guinea pigs for new features is actually savvy.

    Flakey data?

    Niche features?

    The data on P20 Series sales came straight from Huawei. Official numbers. It has been a massive success.

    Aperture Mode is one of the main features on Huawei phones, not a niche feature. Even on my little Honor 10.

    I didn't ask this question last week simply because I thought the feature was different. Seeing the description here, and noting that the process is virtually identical, prompted me to ask.

    There is no need to go on the defensive.
    Well, as we all know, Huawei cheats on testing, something I notice you failed to respond to when I posted that to you in a different thread. I wouldn’t be surprised if they lie about other things too. Whether you like it or not, Chinese companies are known to be, shall we say, flexible, in their company reports. A tiny picture also says little about the quality of the effect, as most everything looks good in a small size. At any rate, we need a couple of dozen images of different types to get an idea as to how well these features work overall, because one well selected image might be great, while most others may be crap.

    aperture mode has to prove itself. Samsung also has a variable aperture, but images using it are no better than those not using it. We’ve also seen a coup,e of phones using two cameras, one taking luminance images, and the other using color images. Supposedly, much better images result. And indeed, the marketing images shown did look pretty good. But when the phones were out in the “wild”, it turned out that the images were pretty bad. These gimmicks rarely work.

    and yes, that evaluation goes for all phones.
    I responded to the Huawei benchmark (and the DSLR) news the very first time it was mentioned here. I responded clearly and openly and was critical of the behaviour. You missed it, it seems.

    You will forgive me for simply passing on the subsequent comments which are simply cheap shots aimed at the company - as a whole - because those comments are simply absurd, as the company as a whole is massive and far removed from the areas involved.

    So when people start questioning the likes of HiSilicon, or the results of the imaging division or battery research - as you yourself did not long ago - it is frankly absurd too. I provide links. With all due respect you have simply limited yourself to telling people they are wrong but without offering any supporting information beyond your own knowledge. Would you accept it if I did the same?

    Huawei is a private company but independently audited just like other companies. There is zero reason to question results.

    On the subject at hand, you are now diverging from the feature itself into the quality if the feature. I have no issue with that. It is a valid comment and I agree - to a degree - but that has nothing to do with my point, which is a completely different.

    And if this feature really hasn't existed on an iPhone until now, the quality is irrevelant. Even just 'acceptable' results would be good enough (even if purely hit and miss), if the other option was not having the feature at all.
    "Huawei is a private company but independently audited just like other companies." There is zero reason to question results." I would feel free to question the results of U.S. company audits, so, no, your statement isn't reassuring.

    Huawei ultimately answers to the authoritarian Chinese government, so, yeah, plenty of reasons to question all things Huawei. 

    As for Apple's Portrait Mode blur feature,

    https://www.businessinsider.com/apple-iphone-portrait-mode-explained-2017-10

    "But Apple was the first to popularize portrait mode, and now offers it on the iPhone 7 Plus, iPhone 8 Plus, and iPhone X."

    Seems like you would have been aware of this feature that was released with the iPhone 7 Plus, that requires dual lenses, but you brought it up so that you could post your Huawei talking points. It's been improved in iOS 12, and has migrated to the single lens XR using focus points to determine depth. Whether Apple was first with faux bokeh is less important than that it was delivered fully baked when Apple popularized it with the iPhone 7.

    How's that Mate 20 doing?.

    By the time Huawei releases it, Apple will already have shipped 15 million iPhone's XS/XR, about the same number of units that that you state Huawei will sell in total for the P20 series. Seems like Huawei has a hill to climb to even meet Apple's unit sales this year.

    Maybe next year.
    Ha! Your final sentence brought to mind the lyrics of a song that seem appropriate for this subthread:

    But where are the clowns?
    There ought to be clowns
    Well, maybe next year

    maybe they could find only one clown...
    tmayradarthekatwatto_cobra
  • Reply 92 of 187
    avon b7 said:
    tmay said:
    avon b7 said:
    tmay said:
    avon b7 said:
    tmay said:
    avon b7 said:
    tmay said:
    avon b7 said:
    melgross said:

    avon b7 said:
    tmay said:
    .
    avon b7 said:
    Is there a difference between the camera mode you are describing and what Huawei phones have done for years?

    The reason I ask is that when they announced the feature I automatically assumed it would be different but what you describe is practically identical to how Huawei phones have operated since the P9. I thought it was already possible on Apple's dual lens phones.

    ....

    Or is not so much what it does as how it does it?
    Huawei? Who cares. Do major US network carriers even carry that pos?
    So you assume that rest of the world does not matter, huh? Arrogance like that does not pay of. Huiwaei dominates markets elswhere and perhaps instead of being arrogant you may need reality check that those phones as well as Samsung dominate in Europe and Apple iPhone is nowhere near. You should star caring because on competitive markets other vendors build solutions that Apple follows (not leads) and some brainwash seems to be out there that Apple is the only innovator. The fact is that Apple came with few features 9(like biometrics) later than Samsung for example, but Samsung never claimed it was copied by Apple so you assume that Apple was first. Instead of reading only Apple news maye be you should start tracking general technology state. You would be surprized what you did not know and assumed that only one vendor innovates.

    Yes we do care about Huwaei, Samsung, LG and Google. Some pople did not review some features and thise dominant on other markets companies already have some stuff that nobody seems here to have a clue about. On top of that some of it is far more practical. Some even say that Pixel 2 photo quality is now top on the market - not Apple iPhones. there will be those now claimin that Aperture mode is so innovative. Well on phones it alreay exist, and it was used on SLR cameras (I used it for years) for decades now. It just got squeezed into smaller package - nothing else.
    I'll post this link;

    https://www.ped30.com/2018/09/20/counterpoint-regions-apple-iphone/

    Apple doesn't have an iPhone under $449, though there may be lower cost models manufacturer for India.

    Seriously, do you think that this data makes Apple look bad?

    Sure, Apple doesn't cater at all to the under $400 market, where the bulk of Huawei's sales are, but I will state that it is likely that Apple will sell a similar number of XS and XS Max units World Wide by the end of this month, as Huawei has sold of the P20 series since its March release. The P20 Pro isn't a great seller, although Avon B7 has tried to portray it as a great success, with pretty flakey data. Maybe it is. Nonetheless, is a likelihood that Apple will sell 80 to 85 million iPhones next quarter, and about 70% of those, will be the X models.

    Being first with niche features is a fool's game, but appropriate for the Android OS device market, where any differentiation at all is a huge marketing necessity. That's likely why we see mostly unbaked innovation in these devices first. Apple, works off of internal roadmap, so these companies, and their customers, as guinea pigs for new features is actually savvy.

    Flakey data?

    Niche features?

    The data on P20 Series sales came straight from Huawei. Official numbers. It has been a massive success.

    Aperture Mode is one of the main features on Huawei phones, not a niche feature. Even on my little Honor 10.

    I didn't ask this question last week simply because I thought the feature was different. Seeing the description here, and noting that the process is virtually identical, prompted me to ask.

    There is no need to go on the defensive.
    Well, as we all know, Huawei cheats on testing, something I notice you failed to respond to when I posted that to you in a different thread. I wouldn’t be surprised if they lie about other things too. Whether you like it or not, Chinese companies are known to be, shall we say, flexible, in their company reports. A tiny picture also says little about the quality of the effect, as most everything looks good in a small size. At any rate, we need a couple of dozen images of different types to get an idea as to how well these features work overall, because one well selected image might be great, while most others may be crap.

    aperture mode has to prove itself. Samsung also has a variable aperture, but images using it are no better than those not using it. We’ve also seen a coup,e of phones using two cameras, one taking luminance images, and the other using color images. Supposedly, much better images result. And indeed, the marketing images shown did look pretty good. But when the phones were out in the “wild”, it turned out that the images were pretty bad. These gimmicks rarely work.

    and yes, that evaluation goes for all phones.
    I responded to the Huawei benchmark (and the DSLR) news the very first time it was mentioned here. I responded clearly and openly and was critical of the behaviour. You missed it, it seems.

    You will forgive me for simply passing on the subsequent comments which are simply cheap shots aimed at the company - as a whole - because those comments are simply absurd, as the company as a whole is massive and far removed from the areas involved.

    So when people start questioning the likes of HiSilicon, or the results of the imaging division or battery research - as you yourself did not long ago - it is frankly absurd too. I provide links. With all due respect you have simply limited yourself to telling people they are wrong but without offering any supporting information beyond your own knowledge. Would you accept it if I did the same?

    Huawei is a private company but independently audited just like other companies. There is zero reason to question results.

    On the subject at hand, you are now diverging from the feature itself into the quality if the feature. I have no issue with that. It is a valid comment and I agree - to a degree - but that has nothing to do with my point, which is a completely different.

    And if this feature really hasn't existed on an iPhone until now, the quality is irrevelant. Even just 'acceptable' results would be good enough (even if purely hit and miss), if the other option was not having the feature at all.
    "Huawei is a private company but independently audited just like other companies." There is zero reason to question results." I would feel free to question the results of U.S. company audits, so, no, your statement isn't reassuring.

    Huawei ultimately answers to the authoritarian Chinese government, so, yeah, plenty of reasons to question all things Huawei. 

    As for Apple's Portrait Mode blur feature,

    https://www.businessinsider.com/apple-iphone-portrait-mode-explained-2017-10

    "But Apple was the first to popularize portrait mode, and now offers it on the iPhone 7 Plus, iPhone 8 Plus, and iPhone X."

    Seems like you would have been aware of this feature that was released with the iPhone 7 Plus, that requires dual lenses, but you brought it up so that you could post your Huawei talking points. It's been improved in iOS 12, and has migrated to the single lens XR using focus points to determine depth. Whether Apple was first with faux bokeh is less important than that it was delivered fully baked when Apple popularized it with the iPhone 7.

    How's that Mate 20 doing?.

    By the time Huawei releases it, Apple will already have shipped 15 million iPhone's XS/XR, about the same number of units that that you state Huawei will sell in total for the P20 series. Seems like Huawei has a hill to climb to even meet Apple's unit sales this year.

    Maybe next year.
    Thanks for at least providing an answer.

    As for Portrait mode. Your quote uses the word 'popularize', probably because Huawei had dual cameras months before Apple with its very own portrait mode. Apple's stayed in beta for a year. Not fully baked!

    However, I appreciate the answer all the same. But is this article on 'Portait Mode' or something new regarding depth of field in a wider perspective?

    That was part of my doubt. From the article:

    "We've been dying to check out the new controllable aperture feature exclusive to these new phones"

    That doesn't sound like an existing feature.

    That's why I brought it up. It has nothing to do with 'Huawei talking points'.

    As for the Mate 20, who knows!? LOL.

    We'll have to wait and see.


    Controllable synthetic aperture using a f/stop slider is the new feature.

    If this had nothing to do with Huawei talking points, then why even bring it up? It's obvious that the improvements in usability and IQ for the feature are independent of "who came first", which was the point of your post. More to the point, it would have been exceedingly easy to so a bit of research such that you didn't come off as "partisan".

    You said "wait and see" about the X, and state it was an anniversary model, and that it wasn't selling well, all of which were false. I have stated the it was the new design, which is true, that it was Apple's most successful single model, which is also true. It looks obvious that Apple has deprecated TouchID, and that the iPhone 8's will be the last current models with that feature, as well as the "chin".

    So "wait and see" is just your standard denier of Apple success with the iPhone X. 

    The Mate 20 is going to have fair winds for only a short time in the Android OS device market, then competition will hit from Samsung with a reported four S10 models, and the other Android OS device makers, then you will be back with, "but wait until the P30 comes out!". The Kirin 980 will be up against the Samsung Exynos 9880 and the Qualcomm 855, both at 7nm.
    Why bring it up?

    Why not read why I even bothered to explain exactly why I asked about this in the first place? I've repeated it twice in this thread already!

    I did my 'research' and came up blank. It is clear that posters here didn't know either, hence the lack of answers. Probably because it is easy to confuse the two features.

    And to add insult to injury, now, you throw in:

    "Controllable synthetic aperture using a f/stop slider is the new feature"

    Why didn't you say that in your first reply instead of going into a rant on Huawei and mentioning Portrait Mode? 

    It at least, finally, provides a decent answer, so thanks for that.

    As for the rest, you are re-hashing the same false claims as you always do and wanting to take this far off topic. Open up a new thread if you wish and I will correct all of your claims. I will put you straight on every point. Literally. Quotes and all. We will see what I really said and in what context and if your claims are true.
    www.youtube.com/watch?time_continue=59&v=_g8aLVGXyc0

    Depth Control is explained in the video, among other things;

    www.youtube.com/watch?time_continue=59&v=_g8aLVGXyc0

    Perhaps you might have first searched Apple for marketing information on the iPhone X?

    "Coming up blank" isn't really a satisfactory answer to a notably easy search.

    From the Apple XS page, scrolling about half way down;

    Intelligent A12 Bionic.

     

    This is the smartest, most powerful chip in a smartphone, with our next-generation Neural Engine. For amazing augmented reality experiences. Incredible portraits with Depth Control. And speed and fluidity in everything you do.


    So why the diversion into your portrait mode answer? Why didn't you go straight to the point if you had the answer?


    I knew how it operated as I had seen it during the event stream, it's part of Portrait Mode and will be available as an update this fall, but didn't know what it was called, and as it requires hardware of the new models; my iPhone 7 doesn't support it. So, with the exception that the extra functionality is called Depth Control, I gave you all of the information previously. 

    I looked that up after I posted, but doesn't change the fact that you didn't even attempt to figure that out yourself, and still haven't, I would guess. 

    So now, you feel entitled to blame me, because you are either too inept to do a simple search to figure it out yourself, or too lazy, or you're afraid of all things Apple.

    Or, he was never interested in the answer and is only interested in dropping FUD pellets everywhere he goes. 
    Or, it was exactly as I said it was!

    The simplest conclusion is the one you can't bring yourself to see because in reality you passed judgement from the outset.

    Your over the top reactions and accusations have laid bare your inability to see past your own obsessions. So much that you cannot see a simple question for what it is. I even made it clear why I asked it in the first place.

    The easy answer would have been that this feature is new to iPhone but isn't new. That's all that was necessary.

    In the end there is nothing new in this feature. I really thought there would be, and, as I said, I was taking for granted that the feature (as explained in the article) was already available on all dual camera iPhones. Available since the get go.

    I am surprised, frankly. I thought there was more to the feature itself. I didn't see the presentation by the way, but the take away from many replies in this thread is the ultra defensive attitude of some people.
    “I’m just asking a question! See!”

    Yeah, man, we see. Your knockoffs did it first and you want everybody to know it. Got it loud and clear. 
    watto_cobra
  • Reply 93 of 187
    avon b7 said:
    avon b7 said:
    tmay said:
    avon b7 said:
    tmay said:
    avon b7 said:
    melgross said:

    avon b7 said:
    tmay said:
    .
    avon b7 said:
    Is there a difference between the camera mode you are describing and what Huawei phones have done for years?

    The reason I ask is that when they announced the feature I automatically assumed it would be different but what you describe is practically identical to how Huawei phones have operated since the P9. I thought it was already possible on Apple's dual lens phones.

    ....

    Or is not so much what it does as how it does it?
    Huawei? Who cares. Do major US network carriers even carry that pos?
    So you assume that rest of the world does not matter, huh? Arrogance like that does not pay of. Huiwaei dominates markets elswhere and perhaps instead of being arrogant you may need reality check that those phones as well as Samsung dominate in Europe and Apple iPhone is nowhere near. You should star caring because on competitive markets other vendors build solutions that Apple follows (not leads) and some brainwash seems to be out there that Apple is the only innovator. The fact is that Apple came with few features 9(like biometrics) later than Samsung for example, but Samsung never claimed it was copied by Apple so you assume that Apple was first. Instead of reading only Apple news maye be you should start tracking general technology state. You would be surprized what you did not know and assumed that only one vendor innovates.

    Yes we do care about Huwaei, Samsung, LG and Google. Some pople did not review some features and thise dominant on other markets companies already have some stuff that nobody seems here to have a clue about. On top of that some of it is far more practical. Some even say that Pixel 2 photo quality is now top on the market - not Apple iPhones. there will be those now claimin that Aperture mode is so innovative. Well on phones it alreay exist, and it was used on SLR cameras (I used it for years) for decades now. It just got squeezed into smaller package - nothing else.
    I'll post this link;

    https://www.ped30.com/2018/09/20/counterpoint-regions-apple-iphone/

    Apple doesn't have an iPhone under $449, though there may be lower cost models manufacturer for India.

    Seriously, do you think that this data makes Apple look bad?

    Sure, Apple doesn't cater at all to the under $400 market, where the bulk of Huawei's sales are, but I will state that it is likely that Apple will sell a similar number of XS and XS Max units World Wide by the end of this month, as Huawei has sold of the P20 series since its March release. The P20 Pro isn't a great seller, although Avon B7 has tried to portray it as a great success, with pretty flakey data. Maybe it is. Nonetheless, is a likelihood that Apple will sell 80 to 85 million iPhones next quarter, and about 70% of those, will be the X models.

    Being first with niche features is a fool's game, but appropriate for the Android OS device market, where any differentiation at all is a huge marketing necessity. That's likely why we see mostly unbaked innovation in these devices first. Apple, works off of internal roadmap, so these companies, and their customers, as guinea pigs for new features is actually savvy.

    Flakey data?

    Niche features?

    The data on P20 Series sales came straight from Huawei. Official numbers. It has been a massive success.

    Aperture Mode is one of the main features on Huawei phones, not a niche feature. Even on my little Honor 10.

    I didn't ask this question last week simply because I thought the feature was different. Seeing the description here, and noting that the process is virtually identical, prompted me to ask.

    There is no need to go on the defensive.
    Well, as we all know, Huawei cheats on testing, something I notice you failed to respond to when I posted that to you in a different thread. I wouldn’t be surprised if they lie about other things too. Whether you like it or not, Chinese companies are known to be, shall we say, flexible, in their company reports. A tiny picture also says little about the quality of the effect, as most everything looks good in a small size. At any rate, we need a couple of dozen images of different types to get an idea as to how well these features work overall, because one well selected image might be great, while most others may be crap.

    aperture mode has to prove itself. Samsung also has a variable aperture, but images using it are no better than those not using it. We’ve also seen a coup,e of phones using two cameras, one taking luminance images, and the other using color images. Supposedly, much better images result. And indeed, the marketing images shown did look pretty good. But when the phones were out in the “wild”, it turned out that the images were pretty bad. These gimmicks rarely work.

    and yes, that evaluation goes for all phones.
    I responded to the Huawei benchmark (and the DSLR) news the very first time it was mentioned here. I responded clearly and openly and was critical of the behaviour. You missed it, it seems.

    You will forgive me for simply passing on the subsequent comments which are simply cheap shots aimed at the company - as a whole - because those comments are simply absurd, as the company as a whole is massive and far removed from the areas involved.

    So when people start questioning the likes of HiSilicon, or the results of the imaging division or battery research - as you yourself did not long ago - it is frankly absurd too. I provide links. With all due respect you have simply limited yourself to telling people they are wrong but without offering any supporting information beyond your own knowledge. Would you accept it if I did the same?

    Huawei is a private company but independently audited just like other companies. There is zero reason to question results.

    On the subject at hand, you are now diverging from the feature itself into the quality if the feature. I have no issue with that. It is a valid comment and I agree - to a degree - but that has nothing to do with my point, which is a completely different.

    And if this feature really hasn't existed on an iPhone until now, the quality is irrevelant. Even just 'acceptable' results would be good enough (even if purely hit and miss), if the other option was not having the feature at all.
    "Huawei is a private company but independently audited just like other companies." There is zero reason to question results." I would feel free to question the results of U.S. company audits, so, no, your statement isn't reassuring.

    Huawei ultimately answers to the authoritarian Chinese government, so, yeah, plenty of reasons to question all things Huawei. 

    As for Apple's Portrait Mode blur feature,

    https://www.businessinsider.com/apple-iphone-portrait-mode-explained-2017-10

    "But Apple was the first to popularize portrait mode, and now offers it on the iPhone 7 Plus, iPhone 8 Plus, and iPhone X."

    Seems like you would have been aware of this feature that was released with the iPhone 7 Plus, that requires dual lenses, but you brought it up so that you could post your Huawei talking points. It's been improved in iOS 12, and has migrated to the single lens XR using focus points to determine depth. Whether Apple was first with faux bokeh is less important than that it was delivered fully baked when Apple popularized it with the iPhone 7.

    How's that Mate 20 doing?.

    By the time Huawei releases it, Apple will already have shipped 15 million iPhone's XS/XR, about the same number of units that that you state Huawei will sell in total for the P20 series. Seems like Huawei has a hill to climb to even meet Apple's unit sales this year.

    Maybe next year.
    Thanks for at least providing an answer.

    As for Portrait mode. Your quote uses the word 'popularize', probably because Huawei had dual cameras months before Apple with its very own portrait mode. Apple's stayed in beta for a year. Not fully baked!

    However, I appreciate the answer all the same. But is this article on 'Portait Mode' or something new regarding depth of field in a wider perspective?

    That was part of my doubt. From the article:

    "We've been dying to check out the new controllable aperture feature exclusive to these new phones"

    That doesn't sound like an existing feature.

    That's why I brought it up. It has nothing to do with 'Huawei talking points'.

    As for the Mate 20, who knows!? LOL.

    We'll have to wait and see.


    Controllable synthetic aperture using a f/stop slider is the new feature.

    If this had nothing to do with Huawei talking points, then why even bring it up? It's obvious that the improvements in usability and IQ for the feature are independent of "who came first", which was the point of your post. More to the point, it would have been exceedingly easy to so a bit of research such that you didn't come off as "partisan".

    You said "wait and see" about the X, and state it was an anniversary model, and that it wasn't selling well, all of which were false. I have stated the it was the new design, which is true, that it was Apple's most successful single model, which is also true. It looks obvious that Apple has deprecated TouchID, and that the iPhone 8's will be the last current models with that feature, as well as the "chin".

    So "wait and see" is just your standard denier of Apple success with the iPhone X. 

    The Mate 20 is going to have fair winds for only a short time in the Android OS device market, then competition will hit from Samsung with a reported four S10 models, and the other Android OS device makers, then you will be back with, "but wait until the P30 comes out!". The Kirin 980 will be up against the Samsung Exynos 9880 and the Qualcomm 855, both at 7nm.
    Why bring it up?

    Why not read why I even bothered to explain exactly why I asked about this in the first place? I've repeated it twice in this thread already!

    I did my 'research' and came up blank. It is clear that posters here didn't know either, hence the lack of answers. P
    Or, that people know a troll when they see one and are sick of your predictable, boring song and dance. You’re worse than google-guy was. 
    I provide information and back it up where necessary. I do not label people much less as 'trolls' or 'fanboys' nor insult people.

    What is tiring and predictable are replies that are empty of any reasoned discussion, replies that show the poster has no interest in seeing anything outside a predefined viewpoint and see anything that doesn't fall in line with that viewpoint as an attack on it.

    Do you know how easy it would be for me to get my wife onto Android? Do you know why she isn't on Android? I have no interest in 'convincing' people of anything. People choose whatever they want but when people start banding about pure fallacies or refusing to recognise certain facts that aren't even refutable, don't expect not to have them challenged in the discussion.

    This site is Apple centric but goes beyond the Apple sphere. It is not Apple exclusive. Many read but don't participate. You have no idea of what readers think.

    When you insistently call every phone that comes out of China a 'knock-off' don't be surprised to be corrected. When you insistently call posters 'trolls' when they clearly aren't, you do yourself no favours either. As you don't when you label other posters opinions as 'nonsense'. Not very respectful.

    It unsettles you that I can be critical of Apple, point out shortcomings but still be an Apple user. This forum has many people like me. Many! Then, when for example I agree with an Apple move or defend them for some reason, 'troll' becomes 'concern troll'. There is a label for everything it seems. 

    Samsung, has been overtaken by Huawei in many areas. Just as Apple has. I rarely post on Samsung in spite of Samsung being the object of many articles here. Why? Because I don't have a Samsung phone. Simple as that. I don't have the knowledge or experience with them. 

    I can speak of their (Apple's and Samsung's) biggest rival (Huawei) because I know something about them. I have experience with their phones. Just as I have experience with Apple phones.

    You can not. I'm sure most people here throwing labels around can't either. It's ironic that they 'know' so much but very probably have never even seen or held a Huawei phone. Are you one of them?

    Why not limit yourself to posting on the content of what is written and refrain from the personal stuff? Is that asking too much?
    When your chinese knockoffs stop aping Apple’s design language, I’ll stop calling them knockoffs. 

    Until then...let us remember the KFC iphone knockoff. 


    watto_cobra
  • Reply 94 of 187

    Natko said:

    Speaker grill holes are not simmetrical on the bottom. That is unacceptable for a device that is branded as a piece of art and a jewelry not to mention priced as one... And all in the name of the antenna line, not even headphone jack as with pre-iPhone 7 design. I don’t know what’s going on, but Jony Ive obviously lost it. They are having attention to detail similar to Samsung nowadays. That’s all right, but then they should have Samsung’s attention to price as well.. :/

    Samsung also charges about a grand for a high end flagship. 
    watto_cobra
  • Reply 95 of 187
    tmaytmay Posts: 3,817member
    avon b7 said:
    avon b7 said:
    tmay said:
    avon b7 said:
    tmay said:
    avon b7 said:
    melgross said:

    avon b7 said:
    tmay said:
    .
    avon b7 said:
    Is there a difference between the camera mode you are describing and what Huawei phones have done for years?

    The reason I ask is that when they announced the feature I automatically assumed it would be different but what you describe is practically identical to how Huawei phones have operated since the P9. I thought it was already possible on Apple's dual lens phones.

    ....

    Or is not so much what it does as how it does it?
    Huawei? Who cares. Do major US network carriers even carry that pos?
    So you assume that rest of the world does not matter, huh? Arrogance like that does not pay of. Huiwaei dominates markets elswhere and perhaps instead of being arrogant you may need reality check that those phones as well as Samsung dominate in Europe and Apple iPhone is nowhere near. You should star caring because on competitive markets other vendors build solutions that Apple follows (not leads) and some brainwash seems to be out there that Apple is the only innovator. The fact is that Apple came with few features 9(like biometrics) later than Samsung for example, but Samsung never claimed it was copied by Apple so you assume that Apple was first. Instead of reading only Apple news maye be you should start tracking general technology state. You would be surprized what you did not know and assumed that only one vendor innovates.

    Yes we do care about Huwaei, Samsung, LG and Google. Some pople did not review some features and thise dominant on other markets companies already have some stuff that nobody seems here to have a clue about. On top of that some of it is far more practical. Some even say that Pixel 2 photo quality is now top on the market - not Apple iPhones. there will be those now claimin that Aperture mode is so innovative. Well on phones it alreay exist, and it was used on SLR cameras (I used it for years) for decades now. It just got squeezed into smaller package - nothing else.
    I'll post this link;

    https://www.ped30.com/2018/09/20/counterpoint-regions-apple-iphone/

    Apple doesn't have an iPhone under $449, though there may be lower cost models manufacturer for India.

    Seriously, do you think that this data makes Apple look bad?

    Sure, Apple doesn't cater at all to the under $400 market, where the bulk of Huawei's sales are, but I will state that it is likely that Apple will sell a similar number of XS and XS Max units World Wide by the end of this month, as Huawei has sold of the P20 series since its March release. The P20 Pro isn't a great seller, although Avon B7 has tried to portray it as a great success, with pretty flakey data. Maybe it is. Nonetheless, is a likelihood that Apple will sell 80 to 85 million iPhones next quarter, and about 70% of those, will be the X models.

    Being first with niche features is a fool's game, but appropriate for the Android OS device market, where any differentiation at all is a huge marketing necessity. That's likely why we see mostly unbaked innovation in these devices first. Apple, works off of internal roadmap, so these companies, and their customers, as guinea pigs for new features is actually savvy.

    Flakey data?

    Niche features?

    The data on P20 Series sales came straight from Huawei. Official numbers. It has been a massive success.

    Aperture Mode is one of the main features on Huawei phones, not a niche feature. Even on my little Honor 10.

    I didn't ask this question last week simply because I thought the feature was different. Seeing the description here, and noting that the process is virtually identical, prompted me to ask.

    There is no need to go on the defensive.
    Well, as we all know, Huawei cheats on testing, something I notice you failed to respond to when I posted that to you in a different thread. I wouldn’t be surprised if they lie about other things too. Whether you like it or not, Chinese companies are known to be, shall we say, flexible, in their company reports. A tiny picture also says little about the quality of the effect, as most everything looks good in a small size. At any rate, we need a couple of dozen images of different types to get an idea as to how well these features work overall, because one well selected image might be great, while most others may be crap.

    aperture mode has to prove itself. Samsung also has a variable aperture, but images using it are no better than those not using it. We’ve also seen a coup,e of phones using two cameras, one taking luminance images, and the other using color images. Supposedly, much better images result. And indeed, the marketing images shown did look pretty good. But when the phones were out in the “wild”, it turned out that the images were pretty bad. These gimmicks rarely work.

    and yes, that evaluation goes for all phones.
    I responded to the Huawei benchmark (and the DSLR) news the very first time it was mentioned here. I responded clearly and openly and was critical of the behaviour. You missed it, it seems.

    You will forgive me for simply passing on the subsequent comments which are simply cheap shots aimed at the company - as a whole - because those comments are simply absurd, as the company as a whole is massive and far removed from the areas involved.

    So when people start questioning the likes of HiSilicon, or the results of the imaging division or battery research - as you yourself did not long ago - it is frankly absurd too. I provide links. With all due respect you have simply limited yourself to telling people they are wrong but without offering any supporting information beyond your own knowledge. Would you accept it if I did the same?

    Huawei is a private company but independently audited just like other companies. There is zero reason to question results.

    On the subject at hand, you are now diverging from the feature itself into the quality if the feature. I have no issue with that. It is a valid comment and I agree - to a degree - but that has nothing to do with my point, which is a completely different.

    And if this feature really hasn't existed on an iPhone until now, the quality is irrevelant. Even just 'acceptable' results would be good enough (even if purely hit and miss), if the other option was not having the feature at all.
    "Huawei is a private company but independently audited just like other companies." There is zero reason to question results." I would feel free to question the results of U.S. company audits, so, no, your statement isn't reassuring.

    Huawei ultimately answers to the authoritarian Chinese government, so, yeah, plenty of reasons to question all things Huawei. 

    As for Apple's Portrait Mode blur feature,

    https://www.businessinsider.com/apple-iphone-portrait-mode-explained-2017-10

    "But Apple was the first to popularize portrait mode, and now offers it on the iPhone 7 Plus, iPhone 8 Plus, and iPhone X."

    Seems like you would have been aware of this feature that was released with the iPhone 7 Plus, that requires dual lenses, but you brought it up so that you could post your Huawei talking points. It's been improved in iOS 12, and has migrated to the single lens XR using focus points to determine depth. Whether Apple was first with faux bokeh is less important than that it was delivered fully baked when Apple popularized it with the iPhone 7.

    How's that Mate 20 doing?.

    By the time Huawei releases it, Apple will already have shipped 15 million iPhone's XS/XR, about the same number of units that that you state Huawei will sell in total for the P20 series. Seems like Huawei has a hill to climb to even meet Apple's unit sales this year.

    Maybe next year.
    Thanks for at least providing an answer.

    As for Portrait mode. Your quote uses the word 'popularize', probably because Huawei had dual cameras months before Apple with its very own portrait mode. Apple's stayed in beta for a year. Not fully baked!

    However, I appreciate the answer all the same. But is this article on 'Portait Mode' or something new regarding depth of field in a wider perspective?

    That was part of my doubt. From the article:

    "We've been dying to check out the new controllable aperture feature exclusive to these new phones"

    That doesn't sound like an existing feature.

    That's why I brought it up. It has nothing to do with 'Huawei talking points'.

    As for the Mate 20, who knows!? LOL.

    We'll have to wait and see.


    Controllable synthetic aperture using a f/stop slider is the new feature.

    If this had nothing to do with Huawei talking points, then why even bring it up? It's obvious that the improvements in usability and IQ for the feature are independent of "who came first", which was the point of your post. More to the point, it would have been exceedingly easy to so a bit of research such that you didn't come off as "partisan".

    You said "wait and see" about the X, and state it was an anniversary model, and that it wasn't selling well, all of which were false. I have stated the it was the new design, which is true, that it was Apple's most successful single model, which is also true. It looks obvious that Apple has deprecated TouchID, and that the iPhone 8's will be the last current models with that feature, as well as the "chin".

    So "wait and see" is just your standard denier of Apple success with the iPhone X. 

    The Mate 20 is going to have fair winds for only a short time in the Android OS device market, then competition will hit from Samsung with a reported four S10 models, and the other Android OS device makers, then you will be back with, "but wait until the P30 comes out!". The Kirin 980 will be up against the Samsung Exynos 9880 and the Qualcomm 855, both at 7nm.
    Why bring it up?

    Why not read why I even bothered to explain exactly why I asked about this in the first place? I've repeated it twice in this thread already!

    I did my 'research' and came up blank. It is clear that posters here didn't know either, hence the lack of answers. P
    Or, that people know a troll when they see one and are sick of your predictable, boring song and dance. You’re worse than google-guy was. 
    I provide information and back it up where necessary. I do not label people much less as 'trolls' or 'fanboys' nor insult people.

    What is tiring and predictable are replies that are empty of any reasoned discussion, replies that show the poster has no interest in seeing anything outside a predefined viewpoint and see anything that doesn't fall in line with that viewpoint as an attack on it.

    Do you know how easy it would be for me to get my wife onto Android? Do you know why she isn't on Android? I have no interest in 'convincing' people of anything. People choose whatever they want but when people start banding about pure fallacies or refusing to recognise certain facts that aren't even refutable, don't expect not to have them challenged in the discussion.

    This site is Apple centric but goes beyond the Apple sphere. It is not Apple exclusive. Many read but don't participate. You have no idea of what readers think.

    When you insistently call every phone that comes out of China a 'knock-off' don't be surprised to be corrected. When you insistently call posters 'trolls' when they clearly aren't, you do yourself no favours either. As you don't when you label other posters opinions as 'nonsense'. Not very respectful.

    It unsettles you that I can be critical of Apple, point out shortcomings but still be an Apple user. This forum has many people like me. Many! Then, when for example I agree with an Apple move or defend them for some reason, 'troll' becomes 'concern troll'. There is a label for everything it seems. 

    Samsung, has been overtaken by Huawei in many areas. Just as Apple has. I rarely post on Samsung in spite of Samsung being the object of many articles here. Why? Because I don't have a Samsung phone. Simple as that. I don't have the knowledge or experience with them. 

    I can speak of their (Apple's and Samsung's) biggest rival (Huawei) because I know something about them. I have experience with their phones. Just as I have experience with Apple phones.

    You can not. I'm sure most people here throwing labels around can't either. It's ironic that they 'know' so much but very probably have never even seen or held a Huawei phone. Are you one of them?

    Why not limit yourself to posting on the content of what is written and refrain from the personal stuff? Is that asking too much?








    Still more of the same tired tropes.

    You have proven yourself uninterested in anything Apple save unfavorable comparisons with Huawei, yet you deny bias. I have given to you, in the past, many fine sites to visit to gain intimate knowledge of Apple and it's products, yet you ignored them for your Huawei bias.

    Setting up your Huawei Kiosk in AI makes you happy, evidently, but your constant interdiction into the discussions to point out minutia of whom had what feature first, rather than the implementation and usability of that same feature in Apple products, exactly what is being discussed by the OP in this review, is why I, and others are not happy with your conduct in the forums. You are determined to be uninformed, and disruptive.

    Hence why I have suggested that you abandon all Apple products you own, even convincing your wife to convert to Android, just so you have no reasons to come here. 

    Even with that, you would still persist.

    edited September 2018 StrangeDaysericthehalfbeeradarthekatwatto_cobra
  • Reply 96 of 187
    avon b7avon b7 Posts: 3,930member
    avon b7 said:
    tmay said:
    avon b7 said:
    tmay said:
    avon b7 said:
    tmay said:
    avon b7 said:
    tmay said:
    avon b7 said:
    melgross said:

    avon b7 said:
    tmay said:
    .
    avon b7 said:
    Is there a difference between the camera mode you are describing and what Huawei phones have done for years?

    The reason I ask is that when they announced the feature I automatically assumed it would be different but what you describe is practically identical to how Huawei phones have operated since the P9. I thought it was already possible on Apple's dual lens phones.

    ....

    Or is not so much what it does as how it does it?
    Huawei? Who cares. Do major US network carriers even carry that pos?
    So you assume that rest of the world does not matter, huh? Arrogance like that does not pay of. Huiwaei dominates markets elswhere and perhaps instead of being arrogant you may need reality check that those phones as well as Samsung dominate in Europe and Apple iPhone is nowhere near. You should star caring because on competitive markets other vendors build solutions that Apple follows (not leads) and some brainwash seems to be out there that Apple is the only innovator. The fact is that Apple came with few features 9(like biometrics) later than Samsung for example, but Samsung never claimed it was copied by Apple so you assume that Apple was first. Instead of reading only Apple news maye be you should start tracking general technology state. You would be surprized what you did not know and assumed that only one vendor innovates.

    Yes we do care about Huwaei, Samsung, LG and Google. Some pople did not review some features and thise dominant on other markets companies already have some stuff that nobody seems here to have a clue about. On top of that some of it is far more practical. Some even say that Pixel 2 photo quality is now top on the market - not Apple iPhones. there will be those now claimin that Aperture mode is so innovative. Well on phones it alreay exist, and it was used on SLR cameras (I used it for years) for decades now. It just got squeezed into smaller package - nothing else.
    I'll post this link;

    https://www.ped30.com/2018/09/20/counterpoint-regions-apple-iphone/

    Apple doesn't have an iPhone under $449, though there may be lower cost models manufacturer for India.

    Seriously, do you think that this data makes Apple look bad?

    Sure, Apple doesn't cater at all to the under $400 market, where the bulk of Huawei's sales are, but I will state that it is likely that Apple will sell a similar number of XS and XS Max units World Wide by the end of this month, as Huawei has sold of the P20 series since its March release. The P20 Pro isn't a great seller, although Avon B7 has tried to portray it as a great success, with pretty flakey data. Maybe it is. Nonetheless, is a likelihood that Apple will sell 80 to 85 million iPhones next quarter, and about 70% of those, will be the X models.

    Being first with niche features is a fool's game, but appropriate for the Android OS device market, where any differentiation at all is a huge marketing necessity. That's likely why we see mostly unbaked innovation in these devices first. Apple, works off of internal roadmap, so these companies, and their customers, as guinea pigs for new features is actually savvy.

    Flakey data?

    Niche features?

    The data on P20 Series sales came straight from Huawei. Official numbers. It has been a massive success.

    Aperture Mode is one of the main features on Huawei phones, not a niche feature. Even on my little Honor 10.

    I didn't ask this question last week simply because I thought the feature was different. Seeing the description here, and noting that the process is virtually identical, prompted me to ask.

    There is no need to go on the defensive.
    Well, as we all know, Huawei cheats on testing, something I notice you failed to respond to when I posted that to you in a different thread. I wouldn’t be surprised if they lie about other things too. Whether you like it or not, Chinese companies are known to be, shall we say, flexible, in their company reports. A tiny picture also says little about the quality of the effect, as most everything looks good in a small size. At any rate, we need a couple of dozen images of different types to get an idea as to how well these features work overall, because one well selected image might be great, while most others may be crap.

    aperture mode has to prove itself. Samsung also has a variable aperture, but images using it are no better than those not using it. We’ve also seen a coup,e of phones using two cameras, one taking luminance images, and the other using color images. Supposedly, much better images result. And indeed, the marketing images shown did look pretty good. But when the phones were out in the “wild”, it turned out that the images were pretty bad. These gimmicks rarely work.

    and yes, that evaluation goes for all phones.
    I responded to the Huawei benchmark (and the DSLR) news the very first time it was mentioned here. I responded clearly and openly and was critical of the behaviour. You missed it, it seems.

    You will forgive me for simply passing on the subsequent comments which are simply cheap shots aimed at the company - as a whole - because those comments are simply absurd, as the company as a whole is massive and far removed from the areas involved.

    So when people start questioning the likes of HiSilicon, or the results of the imaging division or battery research - as you yourself did not long ago - it is frankly absurd too. I provide links. With all due respect you have simply limited yourself to telling people they are wrong but without offering any supporting information beyond your own knowledge. Would you accept it if I did the same?

    Huawei is a private company but independently audited just like other companies. There is zero reason to question results.

    On the subject at hand, you are now diverging from the feature itself into the quality if the feature. I have no issue with that. It is a valid comment and I agree - to a degree - but that has nothing to do with my point, which is a completely different.

    And if this feature really hasn't existed on an iPhone until now, the quality is irrevelant. Even just 'acceptable' results would be good enough (even if purely hit and miss), if the other option was not having the feature at all.
    "Huawei is a private company but independently audited just like other companies." There is zero reason to question results." I would feel free to question the results of U.S. company audits, so, no, your statement isn't reassuring.

    Huawei ultimately answers to the authoritarian Chinese government, so, yeah, plenty of reasons to question all things Huawei. 

    As for Apple's Portrait Mode blur feature,

    https://www.businessinsider.com/apple-iphone-portrait-mode-explained-2017-10

    "But Apple was the first to popularize portrait mode, and now offers it on the iPhone 7 Plus, iPhone 8 Plus, and iPhone X."

    Seems like you would have been aware of this feature that was released with the iPhone 7 Plus, that requires dual lenses, but you brought it up so that you could post your Huawei talking points. It's been improved in iOS 12, and has migrated to the single lens XR using focus points to determine depth. Whether Apple was first with faux bokeh is less important than that it was delivered fully baked when Apple popularized it with the iPhone 7.

    How's that Mate 20 doing?.

    By the time Huawei releases it, Apple will already have shipped 15 million iPhone's XS/XR, about the same number of units that that you state Huawei will sell in total for the P20 series. Seems like Huawei has a hill to climb to even meet Apple's unit sales this year.

    Maybe next year.
    Thanks for at least providing an answer.

    As for Portrait mode. Your quote uses the word 'popularize', probably because Huawei had dual cameras months before Apple with its very own portrait mode. Apple's stayed in beta for a year. Not fully baked!

    However, I appreciate the answer all the same. But is this article on 'Portait Mode' or something new regarding depth of field in a wider perspective?

    That was part of my doubt. From the article:

    "We've been dying to check out the new controllable aperture feature exclusive to these new phones"

    That doesn't sound like an existing feature.

    That's why I brought it up. It has nothing to do with 'Huawei talking points'.

    As for the Mate 20, who knows!? LOL.

    We'll have to wait and see.


    Controllable synthetic aperture using a f/stop slider is the new feature.

    If this had nothing to do with Huawei talking points, then why even bring it up? It's obvious that the improvements in usability and IQ for the feature are independent of "who came first", which was the point of your post. More to the point, it would have been exceedingly easy to so a bit of research such that you didn't come off as "partisan".

    You said "wait and see" about the X, and state it was an anniversary model, and that it wasn't selling well, all of which were false. I have stated the it was the new design, which is true, that it was Apple's most successful single model, which is also true. It looks obvious that Apple has deprecated TouchID, and that the iPhone 8's will be the last current models with that feature, as well as the "chin".

    So "wait and see" is just your standard denier of Apple success with the iPhone X. 

    The Mate 20 is going to have fair winds for only a short time in the Android OS device market, then competition will hit from Samsung with a reported four S10 models, and the other Android OS device makers, then you will be back with, "but wait until the P30 comes out!". The Kirin 980 will be up against the Samsung Exynos 9880 and the Qualcomm 855, both at 7nm.
    Why bring it up?

    Why not read why I even bothered to explain exactly why I asked about this in the first place? I've repeated it twice in this thread already!

    I did my 'research' and came up blank. It is clear that posters here didn't know either, hence the lack of answers. Probably because it is easy to confuse the two features.

    And to add insult to injury, now, you throw in:

    "Controllable synthetic aperture using a f/stop slider is the new feature"

    Why didn't you say that in your first reply instead of going into a rant on Huawei and mentioning Portrait Mode? 

    It at least, finally, provides a decent answer, so thanks for that.

    As for the rest, you are re-hashing the same false claims as you always do and wanting to take this far off topic. Open up a new thread if you wish and I will correct all of your claims. I will put you straight on every point. Literally. Quotes and all. We will see what I really said and in what context and if your claims are true.
    www.youtube.com/watch?time_continue=59&v=_g8aLVGXyc0

    Depth Control is explained in the video, among other things;

    www.youtube.com/watch?time_continue=59&v=_g8aLVGXyc0

    Perhaps you might have first searched Apple for marketing information on the iPhone X?

    "Coming up blank" isn't really a satisfactory answer to a notably easy search.

    From the Apple XS page, scrolling about half way down;

    Intelligent A12 Bionic.

     

    This is the smartest, most powerful chip in a smartphone, with our next-generation Neural Engine. For amazing augmented reality experiences. Incredible portraits with Depth Control. And speed and fluidity in everything you do.


    So why the diversion into your portrait mode answer? Why didn't you go straight to the point if you had the answer?


    I knew how it operated as I had seen it during the event stream, it's part of Portrait Mode and will be available as an update this fall, but didn't know what it was called, and as it requires hardware of the new models; my iPhone 7 doesn't support it. So, with the exception that the extra functionality is called Depth Control, I gave you all of the information previously. 

    I looked that up after I posted, but doesn't change the fact that you didn't even attempt to figure that out yourself, and still haven't, I would guess. 

    So now, you feel entitled to blame me, because you are either too inept to do a simple search to figure it out yourself, or too lazy, or you're afraid of all things Apple.

    Or, he was never interested in the answer and is only interested in dropping FUD pellets everywhere he goes. 
    Or, it was exactly as I said it was!

    The simplest conclusion is the one you can't bring yourself to see because in reality you passed judgement from the outset.

    Your over the top reactions and accusations have laid bare your inability to see past your own obsessions. So much that you cannot see a simple question for what it is. I even made it clear why I asked it in the first place.

    The easy answer would have been that this feature is new to iPhone but isn't new. That's all that was necessary.

    In the end there is nothing new in this feature. I really thought there would be, and, as I said, I was taking for granted that the feature (as explained in the article) was already available on all dual camera iPhones. Available since the get go.

    I am surprised, frankly. I thought there was more to the feature itself. I didn't see the presentation by the way, but the take away from many replies in this thread is the ultra defensive attitude of some people.
    “I’m just asking a question! See!”

    Yeah, man, we see. Your knockoffs did it first and you want everybody to know it. Got it loud and clear. 
    Er. No.

    If I wanted that I would have said it last week. If I wanted that, I would have said much more. Much, much more. 

    I suggest you reflect on what you are saying and how you are saying it. 




  • Reply 97 of 187
    avon b7 said:
    avon b7 said:
    tmay said:
    avon b7 said:
    tmay said:
    avon b7 said:
    tmay said:
    avon b7 said:
    tmay said:
    avon b7 said:
    melgross said:

    avon b7 said:
    tmay said:
    .
    avon b7 said:
    Is there a difference between the camera mode you are describing and what Huawei phones have done for years?

    The reason I ask is that when they announced the feature I automatically assumed it would be different but what you describe is practically identical to how Huawei phones have operated since the P9. I thought it was already possible on Apple's dual lens phones.

    ....

    Or is not so much what it does as how it does it?
    Huawei? Who cares. Do major US network carriers even carry that pos?
    So you assume that rest of the world does not matter, huh? Arrogance like that does not pay of. Huiwaei dominates markets elswhere and perhaps instead of being arrogant you may need reality check that those phones as well as Samsung dominate in Europe and Apple iPhone is nowhere near. You should star caring because on competitive markets other vendors build solutions that Apple follows (not leads) and some brainwash seems to be out there that Apple is the only innovator. The fact is that Apple came with few features 9(like biometrics) later than Samsung for example, but Samsung never claimed it was copied by Apple so you assume that Apple was first. Instead of reading only Apple news maye be you should start tracking general technology state. You would be surprized what you did not know and assumed that only one vendor innovates.

    Yes we do care about Huwaei, Samsung, LG and Google. Some pople did not review some features and thise dominant on other markets companies already have some stuff that nobody seems here to have a clue about. On top of that some of it is far more practical. Some even say that Pixel 2 photo quality is now top on the market - not Apple iPhones. there will be those now claimin that Aperture mode is so innovative. Well on phones it alreay exist, and it was used on SLR cameras (I used it for years) for decades now. It just got squeezed into smaller package - nothing else.
    I'll post this link;

    https://www.ped30.com/2018/09/20/counterpoint-regions-apple-iphone/

    Apple doesn't have an iPhone under $449, though there may be lower cost models manufacturer for India.

    Seriously, do you think that this data makes Apple look bad?

    Sure, Apple doesn't cater at all to the under $400 market, where the bulk of Huawei's sales are, but I will state that it is likely that Apple will sell a similar number of XS and XS Max units World Wide by the end of this month, as Huawei has sold of the P20 series since its March release. The P20 Pro isn't a great seller, although Avon B7 has tried to portray it as a great success, with pretty flakey data. Maybe it is. Nonetheless, is a likelihood that Apple will sell 80 to 85 million iPhones next quarter, and about 70% of those, will be the X models.

    Being first with niche features is a fool's game, but appropriate for the Android OS device market, where any differentiation at all is a huge marketing necessity. That's likely why we see mostly unbaked innovation in these devices first. Apple, works off of internal roadmap, so these companies, and their customers, as guinea pigs for new features is actually savvy.

    Flakey data?

    Niche features?

    The data on P20 Series sales came straight from Huawei. Official numbers. It has been a massive success.

    Aperture Mode is one of the main features on Huawei phones, not a niche feature. Even on my little Honor 10.

    I didn't ask this question last week simply because I thought the feature was different. Seeing the description here, and noting that the process is virtually identical, prompted me to ask.

    There is no need to go on the defensive.
    Well, as we all know, Huawei cheats on testing, something I notice you failed to respond to when I posted that to you in a different thread. I wouldn’t be surprised if they lie about other things too. Whether you like it or not, Chinese companies are known to be, shall we say, flexible, in their company reports. A tiny picture also says little about the quality of the effect, as most everything looks good in a small size. At any rate, we need a couple of dozen images of different types to get an idea as to how well these features work overall, because one well selected image might be great, while most others may be crap.

    aperture mode has to prove itself. Samsung also has a variable aperture, but images using it are no better than those not using it. We’ve also seen a coup,e of phones using two cameras, one taking luminance images, and the other using color images. Supposedly, much better images result. And indeed, the marketing images shown did look pretty good. But when the phones were out in the “wild”, it turned out that the images were pretty bad. These gimmicks rarely work.

    and yes, that evaluation goes for all phones.
    I responded to the Huawei benchmark (and the DSLR) news the very first time it was mentioned here. I responded clearly and openly and was critical of the behaviour. You missed it, it seems.

    You will forgive me for simply passing on the subsequent comments which are simply cheap shots aimed at the company - as a whole - because those comments are simply absurd, as the company as a whole is massive and far removed from the areas involved.

    So when people start questioning the likes of HiSilicon, or the results of the imaging division or battery research - as you yourself did not long ago - it is frankly absurd too. I provide links. With all due respect you have simply limited yourself to telling people they are wrong but without offering any supporting information beyond your own knowledge. Would you accept it if I did the same?

    Huawei is a private company but independently audited just like other companies. There is zero reason to question results.

    On the subject at hand, you are now diverging from the feature itself into the quality if the feature. I have no issue with that. It is a valid comment and I agree - to a degree - but that has nothing to do with my point, which is a completely different.

    And if this feature really hasn't existed on an iPhone until now, the quality is irrevelant. Even just 'acceptable' results would be good enough (even if purely hit and miss), if the other option was not having the feature at all.
    "Huawei is a private company but independently audited just like other companies." There is zero reason to question results." I would feel free to question the results of U.S. company audits, so, no, your statement isn't reassuring.

    Huawei ultimately answers to the authoritarian Chinese government, so, yeah, plenty of reasons to question all things Huawei. 

    As for Apple's Portrait Mode blur feature,

    https://www.businessinsider.com/apple-iphone-portrait-mode-explained-2017-10

    "But Apple was the first to popularize portrait mode, and now offers it on the iPhone 7 Plus, iPhone 8 Plus, and iPhone X."

    Seems like you would have been aware of this feature that was released with the iPhone 7 Plus, that requires dual lenses, but you brought it up so that you could post your Huawei talking points. It's been improved in iOS 12, and has migrated to the single lens XR using focus points to determine depth. Whether Apple was first with faux bokeh is less important than that it was delivered fully baked when Apple popularized it with the iPhone 7.

    How's that Mate 20 doing?.

    By the time Huawei releases it, Apple will already have shipped 15 million iPhone's XS/XR, about the same number of units that that you state Huawei will sell in total for the P20 series. Seems like Huawei has a hill to climb to even meet Apple's unit sales this year.

    Maybe next year.
    Thanks for at least providing an answer.

    As for Portrait mode. Your quote uses the word 'popularize', probably because Huawei had dual cameras months before Apple with its very own portrait mode. Apple's stayed in beta for a year. Not fully baked!

    However, I appreciate the answer all the same. But is this article on 'Portait Mode' or something new regarding depth of field in a wider perspective?

    That was part of my doubt. From the article:

    "We've been dying to check out the new controllable aperture feature exclusive to these new phones"

    That doesn't sound like an existing feature.

    That's why I brought it up. It has nothing to do with 'Huawei talking points'.

    As for the Mate 20, who knows!? LOL.

    We'll have to wait and see.


    Controllable synthetic aperture using a f/stop slider is the new feature.

    If this had nothing to do with Huawei talking points, then why even bring it up? It's obvious that the improvements in usability and IQ for the feature are independent of "who came first", which was the point of your post. More to the point, it would have been exceedingly easy to so a bit of research such that you didn't come off as "partisan".

    You said "wait and see" about the X, and state it was an anniversary model, and that it wasn't selling well, all of which were false. I have stated the it was the new design, which is true, that it was Apple's most successful single model, which is also true. It looks obvious that Apple has deprecated TouchID, and that the iPhone 8's will be the last current models with that feature, as well as the "chin".

    So "wait and see" is just your standard denier of Apple success with the iPhone X. 

    The Mate 20 is going to have fair winds for only a short time in the Android OS device market, then competition will hit from Samsung with a reported four S10 models, and the other Android OS device makers, then you will be back with, "but wait until the P30 comes out!". The Kirin 980 will be up against the Samsung Exynos 9880 and the Qualcomm 855, both at 7nm.
    Why bring it up?

    Why not read why I even bothered to explain exactly why I asked about this in the first place? I've repeated it twice in this thread already!

    I did my 'research' and came up blank. It is clear that posters here didn't know either, hence the lack of answers. Probably because it is easy to confuse the two features.

    And to add insult to injury, now, you throw in:

    "Controllable synthetic aperture using a f/stop slider is the new feature"

    Why didn't you say that in your first reply instead of going into a rant on Huawei and mentioning Portrait Mode? 

    It at least, finally, provides a decent answer, so thanks for that.

    As for the rest, you are re-hashing the same false claims as you always do and wanting to take this far off topic. Open up a new thread if you wish and I will correct all of your claims. I will put you straight on every point. Literally. Quotes and all. We will see what I really said and in what context and if your claims are true.
    www.youtube.com/watch?time_continue=59&v=_g8aLVGXyc0

    Depth Control is explained in the video, among other things;

    www.youtube.com/watch?time_continue=59&v=_g8aLVGXyc0

    Perhaps you might have first searched Apple for marketing information on the iPhone X?

    "Coming up blank" isn't really a satisfactory answer to a notably easy search.

    From the Apple XS page, scrolling about half way down;

    Intelligent A12 Bionic.

     

    This is the smartest, most powerful chip in a smartphone, with our next-generation Neural Engine. For amazing augmented reality experiences. Incredible portraits with Depth Control. And speed and fluidity in everything you do.


    So why the diversion into your portrait mode answer? Why didn't you go straight to the point if you had the answer?


    I knew how it operated as I had seen it during the event stream, it's part of Portrait Mode and will be available as an update this fall, but didn't know what it was called, and as it requires hardware of the new models; my iPhone 7 doesn't support it. So, with the exception that the extra functionality is called Depth Control, I gave you all of the information previously. 

    I looked that up after I posted, but doesn't change the fact that you didn't even attempt to figure that out yourself, and still haven't, I would guess. 

    So now, you feel entitled to blame me, because you are either too inept to do a simple search to figure it out yourself, or too lazy, or you're afraid of all things Apple.

    Or, he was never interested in the answer and is only interested in dropping FUD pellets everywhere he goes. 
    Or, it was exactly as I said it was!

    The simplest conclusion is the one you can't bring yourself to see because in reality you passed judgement from the outset.

    Your over the top reactions and accusations have laid bare your inability to see past your own obsessions. So much that you cannot see a simple question for what it is. I even made it clear why I asked it in the first place.

    The easy answer would have been that this feature is new to iPhone but isn't new. That's all that was necessary.

    In the end there is nothing new in this feature. I really thought there would be, and, as I said, I was taking for granted that the feature (as explained in the article) was already available on all dual camera iPhones. Available since the get go.

    I am surprised, frankly. I thought there was more to the feature itself. I didn't see the presentation by the way, but the take away from many replies in this thread is the ultra defensive attitude of some people.
    “I’m just asking a question! See!”

    Yeah, man, we see. Your knockoffs did it first and you want everybody to know it. Got it loud and clear. 
    Er. No.

    If I wanted that I would have said it last week. If I wanted that, I would have said much more. Much, much more. 

    I suggest you reflect on what you are saying and how you are saying it. 




    No, I just see the pattern with your posts -- your talking points center around how your chinese knockoff (who's name I can't even pronounce in my head) had X feature first, whether thats some camera BS or a rumored processor of some sort or another. 

    Look man, I'm not the only one who's noticed it. It's what you do here. You're the knockoff promoter.
    ericthehalfbeededgeckowatto_cobra
  • Reply 98 of 187
    nhtnht Posts: 4,487member
    avon b7 said:
    avon b7 said:
    tmay said:
    avon b7 said:
    tmay said:
    avon b7 said:
    tmay said:
    avon b7 said:
    tmay said:
    avon b7 said:
    melgross said:

    avon b7 said:
    tmay said:
    .
    avon b7 said:
    Is there a difference between the camera mode you are describing and what Huawei phones have done for years?

    The reason I ask is that when they announced the feature I automatically assumed it would be different but what you describe is practically identical to how Huawei phones have operated since the P9. I thought it was already possible on Apple's dual lens phones.

    ....

    Or is not so much what it does as how it does it?
    Huawei? Who cares. Do major US network carriers even carry that pos?
    So you assume that rest of the world does not matter, huh? Arrogance like that does not pay of. Huiwaei dominates markets elswhere and perhaps instead of being arrogant you may need reality check that those phones as well as Samsung dominate in Europe and Apple iPhone is nowhere near. You should star caring because on competitive markets other vendors build solutions that Apple follows (not leads) and some brainwash seems to be out there that Apple is the only innovator. The fact is that Apple came with few features 9(like biometrics) later than Samsung for example, but Samsung never claimed it was copied by Apple so you assume that Apple was first. Instead of reading only Apple news maye be you should start tracking general technology state. You would be surprized what you did not know and assumed that only one vendor innovates.

    Yes we do care about Huwaei, Samsung, LG and Google. Some pople did not review some features and thise dominant on other markets companies already have some stuff that nobody seems here to have a clue about. On top of that some of it is far more practical. Some even say that Pixel 2 photo quality is now top on the market - not Apple iPhones. there will be those now claimin that Aperture mode is so innovative. Well on phones it alreay exist, and it was used on SLR cameras (I used it for years) for decades now. It just got squeezed into smaller package - nothing else.
    I'll post this link;

    https://www.ped30.com/2018/09/20/counterpoint-regions-apple-iphone/

    Apple doesn't have an iPhone under $449, though there may be lower cost models manufacturer for India.

    Seriously, do you think that this data makes Apple look bad?

    Sure, Apple doesn't cater at all to the under $400 market, where the bulk of Huawei's sales are, but I will state that it is likely that Apple will sell a similar number of XS and XS Max units World Wide by the end of this month, as Huawei has sold of the P20 series since its March release. The P20 Pro isn't a great seller, although Avon B7 has tried to portray it as a great success, with pretty flakey data. Maybe it is. Nonetheless, is a likelihood that Apple will sell 80 to 85 million iPhones next quarter, and about 70% of those, will be the X models.

    Being first with niche features is a fool's game, but appropriate for the Android OS device market, where any differentiation at all is a huge marketing necessity. That's likely why we see mostly unbaked innovation in these devices first. Apple, works off of internal roadmap, so these companies, and their customers, as guinea pigs for new features is actually savvy.

    Flakey data?

    Niche features?

    The data on P20 Series sales came straight from Huawei. Official numbers. It has been a massive success.

    Aperture Mode is one of the main features on Huawei phones, not a niche feature. Even on my little Honor 10.

    I didn't ask this question last week simply because I thought the feature was different. Seeing the description here, and noting that the process is virtually identical, prompted me to ask.

    There is no need to go on the defensive.
    Well, as we all know, Huawei cheats on testing, something I notice you failed to respond to when I posted that to you in a different thread. I wouldn’t be surprised if they lie about other things too. Whether you like it or not, Chinese companies are known to be, shall we say, flexible, in their company reports. A tiny picture also says little about the quality of the effect, as most everything looks good in a small size. At any rate, we need a couple of dozen images of different types to get an idea as to how well these features work overall, because one well selected image might be great, while most others may be crap.

    aperture mode has to prove itself. Samsung also has a variable aperture, but images using it are no better than those not using it. We’ve also seen a coup,e of phones using two cameras, one taking luminance images, and the other using color images. Supposedly, much better images result. And indeed, the marketing images shown did look pretty good. But when the phones were out in the “wild”, it turned out that the images were pretty bad. These gimmicks rarely work.

    and yes, that evaluation goes for all phones.
    I responded to the Huawei benchmark (and the DSLR) news the very first time it was mentioned here. I responded clearly and openly and was critical of the behaviour. You missed it, it seems.

    You will forgive me for simply passing on the subsequent comments which are simply cheap shots aimed at the company - as a whole - because those comments are simply absurd, as the company as a whole is massive and far removed from the areas involved.

    So when people start questioning the likes of HiSilicon, or the results of the imaging division or battery research - as you yourself did not long ago - it is frankly absurd too. I provide links. With all due respect you have simply limited yourself to telling people they are wrong but without offering any supporting information beyond your own knowledge. Would you accept it if I did the same?

    Huawei is a private company but independently audited just like other companies. There is zero reason to question results.

    On the subject at hand, you are now diverging from the feature itself into the quality if the feature. I have no issue with that. It is a valid comment and I agree - to a degree - but that has nothing to do with my point, which is a completely different.

    And if this feature really hasn't existed on an iPhone until now, the quality is irrevelant. Even just 'acceptable' results would be good enough (even if purely hit and miss), if the other option was not having the feature at all.
    "Huawei is a private company but independently audited just like other companies." There is zero reason to question results." I would feel free to question the results of U.S. company audits, so, no, your statement isn't reassuring.

    Huawei ultimately answers to the authoritarian Chinese government, so, yeah, plenty of reasons to question all things Huawei. 

    As for Apple's Portrait Mode blur feature,

    https://www.businessinsider.com/apple-iphone-portrait-mode-explained-2017-10

    "But Apple was the first to popularize portrait mode, and now offers it on the iPhone 7 Plus, iPhone 8 Plus, and iPhone X."

    Seems like you would have been aware of this feature that was released with the iPhone 7 Plus, that requires dual lenses, but you brought it up so that you could post your Huawei talking points. It's been improved in iOS 12, and has migrated to the single lens XR using focus points to determine depth. Whether Apple was first with faux bokeh is less important than that it was delivered fully baked when Apple popularized it with the iPhone 7.

    How's that Mate 20 doing?.

    By the time Huawei releases it, Apple will already have shipped 15 million iPhone's XS/XR, about the same number of units that that you state Huawei will sell in total for the P20 series. Seems like Huawei has a hill to climb to even meet Apple's unit sales this year.

    Maybe next year.
    Thanks for at least providing an answer.

    As for Portrait mode. Your quote uses the word 'popularize', probably because Huawei had dual cameras months before Apple with its very own portrait mode. Apple's stayed in beta for a year. Not fully baked!

    However, I appreciate the answer all the same. But is this article on 'Portait Mode' or something new regarding depth of field in a wider perspective?

    That was part of my doubt. From the article:

    "We've been dying to check out the new controllable aperture feature exclusive to these new phones"

    That doesn't sound like an existing feature.

    That's why I brought it up. It has nothing to do with 'Huawei talking points'.

    As for the Mate 20, who knows!? LOL.

    We'll have to wait and see.


    Controllable synthetic aperture using a f/stop slider is the new feature.

    If this had nothing to do with Huawei talking points, then why even bring it up? It's obvious that the improvements in usability and IQ for the feature are independent of "who came first", which was the point of your post. More to the point, it would have been exceedingly easy to so a bit of research such that you didn't come off as "partisan".

    You said "wait and see" about the X, and state it was an anniversary model, and that it wasn't selling well, all of which were false. I have stated the it was the new design, which is true, that it was Apple's most successful single model, which is also true. It looks obvious that Apple has deprecated TouchID, and that the iPhone 8's will be the last current models with that feature, as well as the "chin".

    So "wait and see" is just your standard denier of Apple success with the iPhone X. 

    The Mate 20 is going to have fair winds for only a short time in the Android OS device market, then competition will hit from Samsung with a reported four S10 models, and the other Android OS device makers, then you will be back with, "but wait until the P30 comes out!". The Kirin 980 will be up against the Samsung Exynos 9880 and the Qualcomm 855, both at 7nm.
    Why bring it up?

    Why not read why I even bothered to explain exactly why I asked about this in the first place? I've repeated it twice in this thread already!

    I did my 'research' and came up blank. It is clear that posters here didn't know either, hence the lack of answers. Probably because it is easy to confuse the two features.

    And to add insult to injury, now, you throw in:

    "Controllable synthetic aperture using a f/stop slider is the new feature"

    Why didn't you say that in your first reply instead of going into a rant on Huawei and mentioning Portrait Mode? 

    It at least, finally, provides a decent answer, so thanks for that.

    As for the rest, you are re-hashing the same false claims as you always do and wanting to take this far off topic. Open up a new thread if you wish and I will correct all of your claims. I will put you straight on every point. Literally. Quotes and all. We will see what I really said and in what context and if your claims are true.
    www.youtube.com/watch?time_continue=59&v=_g8aLVGXyc0

    Depth Control is explained in the video, among other things;

    www.youtube.com/watch?time_continue=59&v=_g8aLVGXyc0

    Perhaps you might have first searched Apple for marketing information on the iPhone X?

    "Coming up blank" isn't really a satisfactory answer to a notably easy search.

    From the Apple XS page, scrolling about half way down;

    Intelligent A12 Bionic.

     

    This is the smartest, most powerful chip in a smartphone, with our next-generation Neural Engine. For amazing augmented reality experiences. Incredible portraits with Depth Control. And speed and fluidity in everything you do.


    So why the diversion into your portrait mode answer? Why didn't you go straight to the point if you had the answer?


    I knew how it operated as I had seen it during the event stream, it's part of Portrait Mode and will be available as an update this fall, but didn't know what it was called, and as it requires hardware of the new models; my iPhone 7 doesn't support it. So, with the exception that the extra functionality is called Depth Control, I gave you all of the information previously. 

    I looked that up after I posted, but doesn't change the fact that you didn't even attempt to figure that out yourself, and still haven't, I would guess. 

    So now, you feel entitled to blame me, because you are either too inept to do a simple search to figure it out yourself, or too lazy, or you're afraid of all things Apple.

    Or, he was never interested in the answer and is only interested in dropping FUD pellets everywhere he goes. 
    Or, it was exactly as I said it was!

    The simplest conclusion is the one you can't bring yourself to see because in reality you passed judgement from the outset.

    Your over the top reactions and accusations have laid bare your inability to see past your own obsessions. So much that you cannot see a simple question for what it is. I even made it clear why I asked it in the first place.

    The easy answer would have been that this feature is new to iPhone but isn't new. That's all that was necessary.

    In the end there is nothing new in this feature. I really thought there would be, and, as I said, I was taking for granted that the feature (as explained in the article) was already available on all dual camera iPhones. Available since the get go.

    I am surprised, frankly. I thought there was more to the feature itself. I didn't see the presentation by the way, but the take away from many replies in this thread is the ultra defensive attitude of some people.
    “I’m just asking a question! See!”

    Yeah, man, we see. Your knockoffs did it first and you want everybody to know it. Got it loud and clear. 
    Er. No.

    If I wanted that I would have said it last week. If I wanted that, I would have said much more. Much, much more. 

    I suggest you reflect on what you are saying and how you are saying it. 

    Perhaps you should reflect on how disliked you are...
    ericthehalfbeewatto_cobra
  • Reply 99 of 187
    sphericspheric Posts: 1,764member
    Oh, come on, kids. 

    Is it at all possible to discuss the relative merits of devices without some idiot immediately going off the rails about how somebody did it first? 

    Yeah, Apple defined the modern smartphone. 

    You wanna Cher it and turn back time, or live with a world where other companies make great phones too, for whatever reason and with whatever moral baggage? 

    You don’t want to buy a Samsung because they’re immoral swine? Cool. Neither do I. 

    Now shut the fuck up about it while the adults are talking about image quality and lens focal length, or whatever the hell else is THE ACTUAL TOPIC. 

    Jesus Christ. 

    Every. Single. Fucking. Thread. 
    edited September 2018 tmaygatorguyradarthekat
  • Reply 100 of 187
    tmaytmay Posts: 3,817member
    avon b7 said:
    tmay said:
    avon b7 said:
    avon b7 said:
    tmay said:
    avon b7 said:
    tmay said:
    avon b7 said:
    melgross said:

    avon b7 said:
    tmay said:
    .
    avon b7 said:
    Is there a difference between the camera mode you are describing and what Huawei phones have done for years?

    The reason I ask is that when they announced the feature I automatically assumed it would be different but what you describe is practically identical to how Huawei phones have operated since the P9. I thought it was already possible on Apple's dual lens phones.

    ....

    Or is not so much what it does as how it does it?
    Huawei? Who cares. Do major US network carriers even carry that pos?
    So you assume that rest of the world does not matter, huh? Arrogance like that does not pay of. Huiwaei dominates markets elswhere and perhaps instead of being arrogant you may need reality check that those phones as well as Samsung dominate in Europe and Apple iPhone is nowhere near. You should star caring because on competitive markets other vendors build solutions that Apple follows (not leads) and some brainwash seems to be out there that Apple is the only innovator. The fact is that Apple came with few features 9(like biometrics) later than Samsung for example, but Samsung never claimed it was copied by Apple so you assume that Apple was first. Instead of reading only Apple news maye be you should start tracking general technology state. You would be surprized what you did not know and assumed that only one vendor innovates.

    Yes we do care about Huwaei, Samsung, LG and Google. Some pople did not review some features and thise dominant on other markets companies already have some stuff that nobody seems here to have a clue about. On top of that some of it is far more practical. Some even say that Pixel 2 photo quality is now top on the market - not Apple iPhones. there will be those now claimin that Aperture mode is so innovative. Well on phones it alreay exist, and it was used on SLR cameras (I used it for years) for decades now. It just got squeezed into smaller package - nothing else.
    I'll post this link;

    https://www.ped30.com/2018/09/20/counterpoint-regions-apple-iphone/

    Apple doesn't have an iPhone under $449, though there may be lower cost models manufacturer for India.

    Seriously, do you think that this data makes Apple look bad?

    Sure, Apple doesn't cater at all to the under $400 market, where the bulk of Huawei's sales are, but I will state that it is likely that Apple will sell a similar number of XS and XS Max units World Wide by the end of this month, as Huawei has sold of the P20 series since its March release. The P20 Pro isn't a great seller, although Avon B7 has tried to portray it as a great success, with pretty flakey data. Maybe it is. Nonetheless, is a likelihood that Apple will sell 80 to 85 million iPhones next quarter, and about 70% of those, will be the X models.

    Being first with niche features is a fool's game, but appropriate for the Android OS device market, where any differentiation at all is a huge marketing necessity. That's likely why we see mostly unbaked innovation in these devices first. Apple, works off of internal roadmap, so these companies, and their customers, as guinea pigs for new features is actually savvy.

    Flakey data?

    Niche features?

    The data on P20 Series sales came straight from Huawei. Official numbers. It has been a massive success.

    Aperture Mode is one of the main features on Huawei phones, not a niche feature. Even on my little Honor 10.

    I didn't ask this question last week simply because I thought the feature was different. Seeing the description here, and noting that the process is virtually identical, prompted me to ask.

    There is no need to go on the defensive.
    Well, as we all know, Huawei cheats on testing, something I notice you failed to respond to when I posted that to you in a different thread. I wouldn’t be surprised if they lie about other things too. Whether you like it or not, Chinese companies are known to be, shall we say, flexible, in their company reports. A tiny picture also says little about the quality of the effect, as most everything looks good in a small size. At any rate, we need a couple of dozen images of different types to get an idea as to how well these features work overall, because one well selected image might be great, while most others may be crap.

    aperture mode has to prove itself. Samsung also has a variable aperture, but images using it are no better than those not using it. We’ve also seen a coup,e of phones using two cameras, one taking luminance images, and the other using color images. Supposedly, much better images result. And indeed, the marketing images shown did look pretty good. But when the phones were out in the “wild”, it turned out that the images were pretty bad. These gimmicks rarely work.

    and yes, that evaluation goes for all phones.
    I responded to the Huawei benchmark (and the DSLR) news the very first time it was mentioned here. I responded clearly and openly and was critical of the behaviour. You missed it, it seems.

    You will forgive me for simply passing on the subsequent comments which are simply cheap shots aimed at the company - as a whole - because those comments are simply absurd, as the company as a whole is massive and far removed from the areas involved.

    So when people start questioning the likes of HiSilicon, or the results of the imaging division or battery research - as you yourself did not long ago - it is frankly absurd too. I provide links. With all due respect you have simply limited yourself to telling people they are wrong but without offering any supporting information beyond your own knowledge. Would you accept it if I did the same?

    Huawei is a private company but independently audited just like other companies. There is zero reason to question results.

    On the subject at hand, you are now diverging from the feature itself into the quality if the feature. I have no issue with that. It is a valid comment and I agree - to a degree - but that has nothing to do with my point, which is a completely different.

    And if this feature really hasn't existed on an iPhone until now, the quality is irrevelant. Even just 'acceptable' results would be good enough (even if purely hit and miss), if the other option was not having the feature at all.
    "Huawei is a private company but independently audited just like other companies." There is zero reason to question results." I would feel free to question the results of U.S. company audits, so, no, your statement isn't reassuring.

    Huawei ultimately answers to the authoritarian Chinese government, so, yeah, plenty of reasons to question all things Huawei. 

    As for Apple's Portrait Mode blur feature,

    https://www.businessinsider.com/apple-iphone-portrait-mode-explained-2017-10

    "But Apple was the first to popularize portrait mode, and now offers it on the iPhone 7 Plus, iPhone 8 Plus, and iPhone X."

    Seems like you would have been aware of this feature that was released with the iPhone 7 Plus, that requires dual lenses, but you brought it up so that you could post your Huawei talking points. It's been improved in iOS 12, and has migrated to the single lens XR using focus points to determine depth. Whether Apple was first with faux bokeh is less important than that it was delivered fully baked when Apple popularized it with the iPhone 7.

    How's that Mate 20 doing?.

    By the time Huawei releases it, Apple will already have shipped 15 million iPhone's XS/XR, about the same number of units that that you state Huawei will sell in total for the P20 series. Seems like Huawei has a hill to climb to even meet Apple's unit sales this year.

    Maybe next year.
    Thanks for at least providing an answer.

    As for Portrait mode. Your quote uses the word 'popularize', probably because Huawei had dual cameras months before Apple with its very own portrait mode. Apple's stayed in beta for a year. Not fully baked!

    However, I appreciate the answer all the same. But is this article on 'Portait Mode' or something new regarding depth of field in a wider perspective?

    That was part of my doubt. From the article:

    "We've been dying to check out the new controllable aperture feature exclusive to these new phones"

    That doesn't sound like an existing feature.

    That's why I brought it up. It has nothing to do with 'Huawei talking points'.

    As for the Mate 20, who knows!? LOL.

    We'll have to wait and see.


    Controllable synthetic aperture using a f/stop slider is the new feature.

    If this had nothing to do with Huawei talking points, then why even bring it up? It's obvious that the improvements in usability and IQ for the feature are independent of "who came first", which was the point of your post. More to the point, it would have been exceedingly easy to so a bit of research such that you didn't come off as "partisan".

    You said "wait and see" about the X, and state it was an anniversary model, and that it wasn't selling well, all of which were false. I have stated the it was the new design, which is true, that it was Apple's most successful single model, which is also true. It looks obvious that Apple has deprecated TouchID, and that the iPhone 8's will be the last current models with that feature, as well as the "chin".

    So "wait and see" is just your standard denier of Apple success with the iPhone X. 

    The Mate 20 is going to have fair winds for only a short time in the Android OS device market, then competition will hit from Samsung with a reported four S10 models, and the other Android OS device makers, then you will be back with, "but wait until the P30 comes out!". The Kirin 980 will be up against the Samsung Exynos 9880 and the Qualcomm 855, both at 7nm.
    Why bring it up?

    Why not read why I even bothered to explain exactly why I asked about this in the first place? I've repeated it twice in this thread already!

    I did my 'research' and came up blank. It is clear that posters here didn't know either, hence the lack of answers. P
    Or, that people know a troll when they see one and are sick of your predictable, boring song and dance. You’re worse than google-guy was. 
    I provide information and back it up where necessary. I do not label people much less as 'trolls' or 'fanboys' nor insult people.

    What is tiring and predictable are replies that are empty of any reasoned discussion, replies that show the poster has no interest in seeing anything outside a predefined viewpoint and see anything that doesn't fall in line with that viewpoint as an attack on it.

    Do you know how easy it would be for me to get my wife onto Android? Do you know why she isn't on Android? I have no interest in 'convincing' people of anything. People choose whatever they want but when people start banding about pure fallacies or refusing to recognise certain facts that aren't even refutable, don't expect not to have them challenged in the discussion.

    This site is Apple centric but goes beyond the Apple sphere. It is not Apple exclusive. Many read but don't participate. You have no idea of what readers think.

    When you insistently call every phone that comes out of China a 'knock-off' don't be surprised to be corrected. When you insistently call posters 'trolls' when they clearly aren't, you do yourself no favours either. As you don't when you label other posters opinions as 'nonsense'. Not very respectful.

    It unsettles you that I can be critical of Apple, point out shortcomings but still be an Apple user. This forum has many people like me. Many! Then, when for example I agree with an Apple move or defend them for some reason, 'troll' becomes 'concern troll'. There is a label for everything it seems. 

    Samsung, has been overtaken by Huawei in many areas. Just as Apple has. I rarely post on Samsung in spite of Samsung being the object of many articles here. Why? Because I don't have a Samsung phone. Simple as that. I don't have the knowledge or experience with them. 

    I can speak of their (Apple's and Samsung's) biggest rival (Huawei) because I know something about them. I have experience with their phones. Just as I have experience with Apple phones.

    You can not. I'm sure most people here throwing labels around can't either. It's ironic that they 'know' so much but very probably have never even seen or held a Huawei phone. Are you one of them?

    Why not limit yourself to posting on the content of what is written and refrain from the personal stuff? Is that asking too much?








    Still more of the same tired tropes.

    You have proven yourself uninterested in anything Apple save unfavorable comparisons with Huawei, yet you deny bias. I have given to you, in the past, many fine sites to visit to gain intimate knowledge of Apple and it's products, yet you ignored them for your Huawei bias.

    Setting up your Huawei Kiosk in AI makes you happy, evidently, but your constant interdiction into the discussions to point out minutia of whom had what feature first, rather than the implementation and usability of that same feature in Apple products, exactly what is being discussed by the OP in this review, is why I, and others are not happy with your conduct in the forums. You are determined to be uninformed, and disruptive.

    Hence why I have suggested that you abandon all Apple products you own, even convincing your wife to convert to Android, just so you have no reasons to come here. 

    Even with that, you would still persist.

    As usual you insist. I said this would go off topic and you are trying your hardest.

    Hmmn. Let's see.

    I post in very, very few AI threads but they are varied, not limited to one particular subject. Yes, I know you don't see it that way.

    I post on what I know. I respect other people's opinions. I don't have to share those opinions and as this is a discussion forum, they can be discussed.

    So lets take a subject. Watches. Huawei makes watches too. Watches that are quite well appreciated, yet I haven't mentioned a Huawei watch (a single time?) and I haven't mentioned Apple Watch beyond two or three lines on design.

    Why? Because I have little information on either of them and haven't worn a watch in around 20 years, and when I did, it was for a very short period.

    So let me repeat what I said. I post on what I know or have enough knowledge on comment on. That's pretty reasonable, IMO.

    In the hundreds of watch threads here, basically not a peep from me, much less on Huawei.

    If your absurd and baseless accusations were even remotely true, my post history would be completely different. I would be popping Huawei (you seem obsessed with this) into every thread. That simply isn't the case. Sorry.

    No. What bothers you is that someone can contest most of what you say and back it up. What you seem to forget is that often I do not take issue with what you say - simply because of what you say. No. It is because previously, you have jumped into conversations with ill thought out comments and sometimes show no or very little respect when countering points. It's a case of jumping in to make a splash as it were.

    Those are the comments that get contested and then you simply go on. I have been enormously tolerant of you in particular. Especially seeing as you went on record as admitting to stalking every post I make, and sure enough, whenever I post, you do not usually take long to appear.

    Do I care. Not one bit but that behaviour is NOT normal.

     I have never reported anyone nor put anyone on ignore. Not even Nunzy! LOL. I don't care if you stalk me but if you are going to boil everything down to your last post, then perhaps it is better to put me on ignore or start accepting things.

    Yet, you insist, and threads go off topic (like this one - and I said this would happen). I recently asked you to open up a dedicated thread (at least things would stay on topic, LOL) and promised to indulge you and your statements. I don't shy away because I'm pretty confident in what I write but the option is yours. 

    The smartphone world doesn't revolve around Apple. I know. I used to have an iPhone. There are other players. Huawei is just one of them.

    Would you like to go back to my first mention of Huawei here? Would you like to see your, and other people's, reactions when I said Huawei would be one of Apple's biggest competitors? Probably not, right? 

    Since then, Huawei has become just that. That fact perhaps irks you. You perhaps lapped up the Samsung battery fiasco and enjoy jabbing them but, today, Apple has TWO major competitors and is facing fierce competition in a saturated market. How things have changed from when you laughed off Huawei back then.

    Believe me, AI has more articles on Samsung than my threads with information on Huawei. Do I mind AI dealing with non Apple aspects? No. Why should anyone? It is necessary and healthy. Essential even. Information is key and if it is on Apple's direct competitors, that information is good to have. Do I want Huawei Insider? That's ludicrous. All that matters is information and a lot of it is actually subjective so often boils down to one's own opinion. But information is necessary. Accept it.

    As Apple enters lower tiers and competitors enter the higher ground there will be even more comparisons. I doubt AI itself will ignore those comparisons. We have already seen Xiaomi and One Plus in articles.

    Remember, competition is essential and Apple isn't guaranteed to come out on top, much as you would like to imagine it that way.

    Live with it.

    If you want to live in a bubble fine, but don't expect everyone here to want to live in it too. Although some clearly do and resent the presence of anything non-Apple (be it from me, other forum members or AI itself).

    Apple will get compared with its competitors, here, on other Apple sites and non-Apple sites. Huawei is just one of them. There will be others.

    Instead of moaning, be reasonable, tolerant and respectful - or use ignore.

    I will refrain from contesting you more in this thread.

    So, more of the same on your part, eh?

    Ignore data, and metrics that don't support your worldview.

    I couldn't resist responding to this:

    "As Apple enters lower tiers and competitors enter the higher ground there will be even more comparisons. I doubt AI itself will ignore those comparisons. We have already seen Xiaomi and One Plus in articles"

    Uhm, Apple raised the entry level iPhone pricing from $349 to $449; hardly entering "lower tiers" that 
    Huawei and the Chinese OEM's wallow in while they also attempt transition to higher ASP's, all while competing in that good old zero sum Android OS device marketplace.
    edited September 2018 ericthehalfbeewatto_cobra
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