Panasonic announces new line of Lumix S full-frame mirrorless cameras for 2019

2

Comments

  • Reply 21 of 49
    tmaytmay Posts: 3,982member
    avon b7 said:
    tmay said:
    avon b7 said:
    tmay said:
    avon b7 said:
    The big advantage for Panasonic (and Sony) is that they 'know' digital and everything associated with it (screens, viewfinders, video processors, software) far better than Canon or Nikon. They have far better logistical capacity (again, like Sony).

    I don't understand the boutique reference. This Panasonic system doesn't exist yet and any current boutique status for the mount will be lost quickly seeing as a system for the pro  markets without lenses is dead in the water. The same thing happened with m4/3. 

    Of course, Leica will also provide lenses for Panasonic without the Leica branding or certification (again, just like with m4/3).

    The cat will be amongst the pigeons as a major player with ample resources is entering a specialised and relatively small market and brings with it the kind of design agility that the likes of Canon and Nikon can only dream of. They will also back the product up with a new pro services network. Something that will be very easy to do given their existing networks. Sony and Panasonic know each other very well but in this case it is Sony that has something to lose.

    The biggest issue is the user and how to get him/her onboard but this announcement is largely a declaration of intentions and from the m4/3 (which will continue btw) experience, Panasonic won't just dip a toe into the water, it will carve out a space for itself. 




    https://www.sansmirror.com/newsviews/2018-mirrorless-camera/july-september-2018-mirrorl/the-fight-at-the-top.html

    "Too many folk believe that it is the product and technology that is the thing that wins a market war like we're about to have in mirrorless full frame. No, it's not. The thing that wins is having a customer focus. No customer, no sale, no matter what the technology. So it's how you engage and speak to that potential customer that's important. Sure, describing why your technology is better might be part of that, but you actually have to catch the customer's attention before you can get to that discussion."

    Sounds like like another company that we well know.
    Weird that that piece totally misses one major area for new growth: new users, with no entrenchment.

    The author seemingly failed to forecast the entry of Panasonic into this reduced market too.
    Read more, post less. Thom never stated anywhere that they wouldn't enter the full frame market, but now that they have, it's pretty easy to state that Panasonic is no disruption to either the Full Frame MILC or DSLR's from Canon or Nikon.

    I'll post the prior link, again;

    https://www.sansmirror.com/newsviews/2018-mirrorless-camera/july-september-2018-mirrorl/new-baby-elephant-enters.html

    If you think that there are a lot of new users to find in the market, you should post a link to back it up.

    Right now, Sony holds near 100% of the Full Frame MILC market, but that will drop rapidly as Canon and Nikon ship their first generation. Together, those three will have 90% of the market, and to Panasonic is many months away from delivery of their first models.

    If you don't agree with Thom, al least post some links stating how and why Panasonic is going to be taking marketshare from the three current players.

    Here's another quote;

    "How does the L mount stack up against the other mirrorless full frame mounts?
    • Canon RF — 20mm flange, 54mm throat
    • Consortium L — 20mm flange, 51.6mm throat
    • Nikon Z — 16mm flange, 55mm throat
    • Sony FE — 18mm flange, 46mm throat

    If you're to believe Canon's and Nikon's technical descriptions about how a bigger mount is better for future new optical designs, Nikon has the most flexible mount with Canon a bit behind that. The L-mount and the FE mount have some liabilities when it comes to ray-bending at the back"

    That he 'never said they wouldn't enter the market' is besides the point. No. He didn't even mention them!

    What a huge miss! He writes a piece on the 'fight at the top' in early September, when rumours were rife on this Panasonic move and didn't even make a passing reference to it. That failing undermined the whole piece.

    Then he writes another piece and calls them 'the baby elephants' in the room. Very clever! Simply because they have no current presence with this new proposal. It's actually more like a mammoth just entered the room. LOL. 

    "If you think that there are a lot of new users to find in the market, you should post a link to back it up"

    No need. The laws of nature. People leave the market retirement, death, career change etc and people enter the market.

    The point is, there is no entrenchment for those people. Not in knowhow, habits or equipment. In such a small market the actual change is more noticeable.

    From the other article:

    "Sigma has yet to produce a digital camera with convincing UI, focus, and low light performance."

    That is also wierd. Did he forget that although Sigma will be producing cameras for this mount, the real push will be to put lenses onto the market? 14 next year alone (mainly the same Sigmas currently available for Sony. Panasonic is in the opposite position. The real push is with the camera although it will also produce lenses.

    "Safety in numbers" 

    He says that for the, ehem 'little elephants', (protection for the 'dwarves' LOL), but then, when it suits him says:

    "Canikony" to claim "90% of the market"

    And promptly lumps Canon, Nikon and Sony into one group for no valid reason.

    Why not separate those numbers and try to imagine a fourth major player? Of course that player has 0% of the market because it has no phones available yet, but it is clear that Panasonic is NOT entering this market to be a niche player. Reason enough to take major notice.

    Saying the other three have 90% of the market make little sende unless stating the obvious is back in fashion.

    As for the mount, he says:

    "If you're to believe Canon's and Nikon's technical descriptions about how a bigger mount is better for future new optical designs, Nikon has the most flexible mount with Canon a bit behind that. The L-mount and the FE mount have some liabilities when it comes to ray-bending at the back."

    The obvious stance to that is what if you don't believe all that? Are we to imagine Panasonic does? 

    And then, how far can Canon and especially Nikon go if they lose even relatively few sales to Panasonic? Are they so healthy that they can trudge on for a long period unaffected or will alarm bells sound sooner rather than later.

    Looking at how well m4/3 turned out I am optimistic about this new project. 

    We'll see how it turns out but anyone claiming this is a failed project, or too high a mountain to climb, really doesn't understand what Panasonic has already pulled off in m4/3. Notably the GH series.



    Thom has a website devoted to mirrorless

    https://www.sansmirror.com

    He tests and uses a variety of brands and models of mirrorless, especially the m4/3 cameras.


    Camera wise, I went with Nikon over Canon. Personal choice. 

    Will I migrate from my D500 to mirrorless sometime? Sure, but like most photographers, service and support ore paramount, and since all of these are well supported and serviced, what would be the advantage of moving to the Panasonic, which doesn't appear to be technically superior other than supporting 4K 60P, which will certainly arrive with the "Pro" models that both Canon and Nikon will be delivering next year, possibly before Panasonic even delivers its first model?
  • Reply 22 of 49
    MacProMacPro Posts: 18,449member
    bageljoey said:
    I run the Yearbook at the school where I work. Over the last 5 years we have been amassing good Canon glass. 
    I’m afraid I’m going to be invested on the wrong side of the SLR/mirrorless divide, though!
    My new Sony A7 III is doing very well with most of my Canon L lenses thanks to the MetaBones V when set in advanced mode but some work better than others for sure.
    tmay
  • Reply 23 of 49
    avon b7avon b7 Posts: 4,298member
    melgross said:
    avon b7 said:
    tmay said:
    avon b7 said:
    tmay said:
    avon b7 said:
    The big advantage for Panasonic (and Sony) is that they 'know' digital and everything associated with it (screens, viewfinders, video processors, software) far better than Canon or Nikon. They have far better logistical capacity (again, like Sony).

    I don't understand the boutique reference. This Panasonic system doesn't exist yet and any current boutique status for the mount will be lost quickly seeing as a system for the pro  markets without lenses is dead in the water. The same thing happened with m4/3. 

    Of course, Leica will also provide lenses for Panasonic without the Leica branding or certification (again, just like with m4/3).

    The cat will be amongst the pigeons as a major player with ample resources is entering a specialised and relatively small market and brings with it the kind of design agility that the likes of Canon and Nikon can only dream of. They will also back the product up with a new pro services network. Something that will be very easy to do given their existing networks. Sony and Panasonic know each other very well but in this case it is Sony that has something to lose.

    The biggest issue is the user and how to get him/her onboard but this announcement is largely a declaration of intentions and from the m4/3 (which will continue btw) experience, Panasonic won't just dip a toe into the water, it will carve out a space for itself. 




    https://www.sansmirror.com/newsviews/2018-mirrorless-camera/july-september-2018-mirrorl/the-fight-at-the-top.html

    "Too many folk believe that it is the product and technology that is the thing that wins a market war like we're about to have in mirrorless full frame. No, it's not. The thing that wins is having a customer focus. No customer, no sale, no matter what the technology. So it's how you engage and speak to that potential customer that's important. Sure, describing why your technology is better might be part of that, but you actually have to catch the customer's attention before you can get to that discussion."

    Sounds like like another company that we well know.
    Weird that that piece totally misses one major area for new growth: new users, with no entrenchment.

    The author seemingly failed to forecast the entry of Panasonic into this reduced market too.
    Read more, post less. Thom never stated anywhere that they wouldn't enter the full frame market, but now that they have, it's pretty easy to state that Panasonic is no disruption to either the Full Frame MILC or DSLR's from Canon or Nikon.

    I'll post the prior link, again;

    https://www.sansmirror.com/newsviews/2018-mirrorless-camera/july-september-2018-mirrorl/new-baby-elephant-enters.html

    If you think that there are a lot of new users to find in the market, you should post a link to back it up.

    Right now, Sony holds near 100% of the Full Frame MILC market, but that will drop rapidly as Canon and Nikon ship their first generation. Together, those three will have 90% of the market, and to Panasonic is many months away from delivery of their first models.

    If you don't agree with Thom, al least post some links stating how and why Panasonic is going to be taking marketshare from the three current players.

    Here's another quote;

    "How does the L mount stack up against the other mirrorless full frame mounts?
    • Canon RF — 20mm flange, 54mm throat
    • Consortium L — 20mm flange, 51.6mm throat
    • Nikon Z — 16mm flange, 55mm throat
    • Sony FE — 18mm flange, 46mm throat

    If you're to believe Canon's and Nikon's technical descriptions about how a bigger mount is better for future new optical designs, Nikon has the most flexible mount with Canon a bit behind that. The L-mount and the FE mount have some liabilities when it comes to ray-bending at the back"

    That he 'never said they wouldn't enter the market' is besides the point. No. He didn't even mention them!

    What a huge miss! He writes a piece on the 'fight at the top' in early September, when rumours were rife on this Panasonic move and didn't even make a passing reference to it. That failing undermined the whole piece.

    Then he writes another piece and calls them 'the baby elephants' in the room. Very clever! Simply because they have no current presence with this new proposal. It's actually more like a mammoth just entered the room. LOL. 

    "If you think that there are a lot of new users to find in the market, you should post a link to back it up"

    No need. The laws of nature. People leave the market retirement, death, career change etc and people enter the market.

    The point is, there is no entrenchment for those people. Not in knowhow, habits or equipment. In such a small market the actual change is more noticeable.

    From the other article:

    "Sigma has yet to produce a digital camera with convincing UI, focus, and low light performance."

    That is also wierd. Did he forget that although Sigma will be producing cameras for this mount, the real push will be to put lenses onto the market? 14 next year alone (mainly the same Sigmas currently available for Sony. Panasonic is in the opposite position. The real push is with the camera although it will also produce lenses.

    "Safety in numbers" 

    He says that for the, ehem 'little elephants', (protection for the 'dwarves' LOL), but then, when it suits him says:

    "Canikony" to claim "90% of the market"

    And promptly lumps Canon, Nikon and Sony into one group for no valid reason.

    Why not separate those numbers and try to imagine a fourth major player? Of course that player has 0% of the market because it has no phones available yet, but it is clear that Panasonic is NOT entering this market to be a niche player. Reason enough to take major notice.

    Saying the other three have 90% of the market make little sende unless stating the obvious is back in fashion.

    As for the mount, he says:

    "If you're to believe Canon's and Nikon's technical descriptions about how a bigger mount is better for future new optical designs, Nikon has the most flexible mount with Canon a bit behind that. The L-mount and the FE mount have some liabilities when it comes to ray-bending at the back."

    The obvious stance to that is what if you don't believe all that? Are we to imagine Panasonic does? 

    And then, how far can Canon and especially Nikon go if they lose even relatively few sales to Panasonic? Are they so healthy that they can trudge on for a long period unaffected or will alarm bells sound sooner rather than later.

    Looking at how well m4/3 turned out I am optimistic about this new project. 

    We'll see how it turns out but anyone claiming this is a failed project, or too high a mountain to climb, really doesn't understand what Panasonic has already pulled off in m4/3. Notably the GH series.



    Your understanding of the industry is abysmal.
    Well, you often claim people are wrong and mostly never support it with ANYTHING external to your own opinion so in this case we're on equal terms!

    Am I right in stating that? because on numerous occasions I have asked you for links and you have not given them.

    Do you really think Panasonic plans to dip a toe into this market or make a concerted effort?

    It plans to make a splash. The announcement and intention were clear. Minimum 14 lenses in one year. Major hardware, a complete Pro Service network. It won't happen overnight but it has the resources to back it all up and there is zero reason to think they can't actually make a dent.

    The aim is to take a slice of that 90% pie.

    If this announcement had been made by Olympus I would have been far more skeptical.



    edited September 2018 gatorguy
  • Reply 24 of 49
    tmaytmay Posts: 3,982member
    avon b7 said:
    melgross said:
    avon b7 said:
    tmay said:
    avon b7 said:
    tmay said:
    avon b7 said:
    The big advantage for Panasonic (and Sony) is that they 'know' digital and everything associated with it (screens, viewfinders, video processors, software) far better than Canon or Nikon. They have far better logistical capacity (again, like Sony).

    I don't understand the boutique reference. This Panasonic system doesn't exist yet and any current boutique status for the mount will be lost quickly seeing as a system for the pro  markets without lenses is dead in the water. The same thing happened with m4/3. 

    Of course, Leica will also provide lenses for Panasonic without the Leica branding or certification (again, just like with m4/3).

    The cat will be amongst the pigeons as a major player with ample resources is entering a specialised and relatively small market and brings with it the kind of design agility that the likes of Canon and Nikon can only dream of. They will also back the product up with a new pro services network. Something that will be very easy to do given their existing networks. Sony and Panasonic know each other very well but in this case it is Sony that has something to lose.

    The biggest issue is the user and how to get him/her onboard but this announcement is largely a declaration of intentions and from the m4/3 (which will continue btw) experience, Panasonic won't just dip a toe into the water, it will carve out a space for itself. 




    https://www.sansmirror.com/newsviews/2018-mirrorless-camera/july-september-2018-mirrorl/the-fight-at-the-top.html

    "Too many folk believe that it is the product and technology that is the thing that wins a market war like we're about to have in mirrorless full frame. No, it's not. The thing that wins is having a customer focus. No customer, no sale, no matter what the technology. So it's how you engage and speak to that potential customer that's important. Sure, describing why your technology is better might be part of that, but you actually have to catch the customer's attention before you can get to that discussion."

    Sounds like like another company that we well know.
    Weird that that piece totally misses one major area for new growth: new users, with no entrenchment.

    The author seemingly failed to forecast the entry of Panasonic into this reduced market too.
    Read more, post less. Thom never stated anywhere that they wouldn't enter the full frame market, but now that they have, it's pretty easy to state that Panasonic is no disruption to either the Full Frame MILC or DSLR's from Canon or Nikon.

    I'll post the prior link, again;

    https://www.sansmirror.com/newsviews/2018-mirrorless-camera/july-september-2018-mirrorl/new-baby-elephant-enters.html

    If you think that there are a lot of new users to find in the market, you should post a link to back it up.

    Right now, Sony holds near 100% of the Full Frame MILC market, but that will drop rapidly as Canon and Nikon ship their first generation. Together, those three will have 90% of the market, and to Panasonic is many months away from delivery of their first models.

    If you don't agree with Thom, al least post some links stating how and why Panasonic is going to be taking marketshare from the three current players.

    Here's another quote;

    "How does the L mount stack up against the other mirrorless full frame mounts?
    • Canon RF — 20mm flange, 54mm throat
    • Consortium L — 20mm flange, 51.6mm throat
    • Nikon Z — 16mm flange, 55mm throat
    • Sony FE — 18mm flange, 46mm throat

    If you're to believe Canon's and Nikon's technical descriptions about how a bigger mount is better for future new optical designs, Nikon has the most flexible mount with Canon a bit behind that. The L-mount and the FE mount have some liabilities when it comes to ray-bending at the back"

    That he 'never said they wouldn't enter the market' is besides the point. No. He didn't even mention them!

    What a huge miss! He writes a piece on the 'fight at the top' in early September, when rumours were rife on this Panasonic move and didn't even make a passing reference to it. That failing undermined the whole piece.

    Then he writes another piece and calls them 'the baby elephants' in the room. Very clever! Simply because they have no current presence with this new proposal. It's actually more like a mammoth just entered the room. LOL. 

    "If you think that there are a lot of new users to find in the market, you should post a link to back it up"

    No need. The laws of nature. People leave the market retirement, death, career change etc and people enter the market.

    The point is, there is no entrenchment for those people. Not in knowhow, habits or equipment. In such a small market the actual change is more noticeable.

    From the other article:

    "Sigma has yet to produce a digital camera with convincing UI, focus, and low light performance."

    That is also wierd. Did he forget that although Sigma will be producing cameras for this mount, the real push will be to put lenses onto the market? 14 next year alone (mainly the same Sigmas currently available for Sony. Panasonic is in the opposite position. The real push is with the camera although it will also produce lenses.

    "Safety in numbers" 

    He says that for the, ehem 'little elephants', (protection for the 'dwarves' LOL), but then, when it suits him says:

    "Canikony" to claim "90% of the market"

    And promptly lumps Canon, Nikon and Sony into one group for no valid reason.

    Why not separate those numbers and try to imagine a fourth major player? Of course that player has 0% of the market because it has no phones available yet, but it is clear that Panasonic is NOT entering this market to be a niche player. Reason enough to take major notice.

    Saying the other three have 90% of the market make little sende unless stating the obvious is back in fashion.

    As for the mount, he says:

    "If you're to believe Canon's and Nikon's technical descriptions about how a bigger mount is better for future new optical designs, Nikon has the most flexible mount with Canon a bit behind that. The L-mount and the FE mount have some liabilities when it comes to ray-bending at the back."

    The obvious stance to that is what if you don't believe all that? Are we to imagine Panasonic does? 

    And then, how far can Canon and especially Nikon go if they lose even relatively few sales to Panasonic? Are they so healthy that they can trudge on for a long period unaffected or will alarm bells sound sooner rather than later.

    Looking at how well m4/3 turned out I am optimistic about this new project. 

    We'll see how it turns out but anyone claiming this is a failed project, or too high a mountain to climb, really doesn't understand what Panasonic has already pulled off in m4/3. Notably the GH series.



    Your understanding of the industry is abysmal.
    Well, you often claim people are wrong and mostly never support it with ANYTHING external to your own opinion so in this case we're on equal terms!
    My data supports his "opinion".

    Where's your data?

    For the record, I'm your so called"stalker" because you post massive amounts of misinformation that needs correction, constantly. Still, I'm surprised that you have attached your "brand" to Panasonic, as if they need your help.


  • Reply 25 of 49
    avon b7avon b7 Posts: 4,298member
    tmay said:
    avon b7 said:
    melgross said:
    avon b7 said:
    tmay said:
    avon b7 said:
    tmay said:
    avon b7 said:
    The big advantage for Panasonic (and Sony) is that they 'know' digital and everything associated with it (screens, viewfinders, video processors, software) far better than Canon or Nikon. They have far better logistical capacity (again, like Sony).

    I don't understand the boutique reference. This Panasonic system doesn't exist yet and any current boutique status for the mount will be lost quickly seeing as a system for the pro  markets without lenses is dead in the water. The same thing happened with m4/3. 

    Of course, Leica will also provide lenses for Panasonic without the Leica branding or certification (again, just like with m4/3).

    The cat will be amongst the pigeons as a major player with ample resources is entering a specialised and relatively small market and brings with it the kind of design agility that the likes of Canon and Nikon can only dream of. They will also back the product up with a new pro services network. Something that will be very easy to do given their existing networks. Sony and Panasonic know each other very well but in this case it is Sony that has something to lose.

    The biggest issue is the user and how to get him/her onboard but this announcement is largely a declaration of intentions and from the m4/3 (which will continue btw) experience, Panasonic won't just dip a toe into the water, it will carve out a space for itself. 




    https://www.sansmirror.com/newsviews/2018-mirrorless-camera/july-september-2018-mirrorl/the-fight-at-the-top.html

    "Too many folk believe that it is the product and technology that is the thing that wins a market war like we're about to have in mirrorless full frame. No, it's not. The thing that wins is having a customer focus. No customer, no sale, no matter what the technology. So it's how you engage and speak to that potential customer that's important. Sure, describing why your technology is better might be part of that, but you actually have to catch the customer's attention before you can get to that discussion."

    Sounds like like another company that we well know.
    Weird that that piece totally misses one major area for new growth: new users, with no entrenchment.

    The author seemingly failed to forecast the entry of Panasonic into this reduced market too.
    Read more, post less. Thom never stated anywhere that they wouldn't enter the full frame market, but now that they have, it's pretty easy to state that Panasonic is no disruption to either the Full Frame MILC or DSLR's from Canon or Nikon.

    I'll post the prior link, again;

    https://www.sansmirror.com/newsviews/2018-mirrorless-camera/july-september-2018-mirrorl/new-baby-elephant-enters.html

    If you think that there are a lot of new users to find in the market, you should post a link to back it up.

    Right now, Sony holds near 100% of the Full Frame MILC market, but that will drop rapidly as Canon and Nikon ship their first generation. Together, those three will have 90% of the market, and to Panasonic is many months away from delivery of their first models.

    If you don't agree with Thom, al least post some links stating how and why Panasonic is going to be taking marketshare from the three current players.

    Here's another quote;

    "How does the L mount stack up against the other mirrorless full frame mounts?
    • Canon RF — 20mm flange, 54mm throat
    • Consortium L — 20mm flange, 51.6mm throat
    • Nikon Z — 16mm flange, 55mm throat
    • Sony FE — 18mm flange, 46mm throat

    If you're to believe Canon's and Nikon's technical descriptions about how a bigger mount is better for future new optical designs, Nikon has the most flexible mount with Canon a bit behind that. The L-mount and the FE mount have some liabilities when it comes to ray-bending at the back"

    That he 'never said they wouldn't enter the market' is besides the point. No. He didn't even mention them!

    What a huge miss! He writes a piece on the 'fight at the top' in early September, when rumours were rife on this Panasonic move and didn't even make a passing reference to it. That failing undermined the whole piece.

    Then he writes another piece and calls them 'the baby elephants' in the room. Very clever! Simply because they have no current presence with this new proposal. It's actually more like a mammoth just entered the room. LOL. 

    "If you think that there are a lot of new users to find in the market, you should post a link to back it up"

    No need. The laws of nature. People leave the market retirement, death, career change etc and people enter the market.

    The point is, there is no entrenchment for those people. Not in knowhow, habits or equipment. In such a small market the actual change is more noticeable.

    From the other article:

    "Sigma has yet to produce a digital camera with convincing UI, focus, and low light performance."

    That is also wierd. Did he forget that although Sigma will be producing cameras for this mount, the real push will be to put lenses onto the market? 14 next year alone (mainly the same Sigmas currently available for Sony. Panasonic is in the opposite position. The real push is with the camera although it will also produce lenses.

    "Safety in numbers" 

    He says that for the, ehem 'little elephants', (protection for the 'dwarves' LOL), but then, when it suits him says:

    "Canikony" to claim "90% of the market"

    And promptly lumps Canon, Nikon and Sony into one group for no valid reason.

    Why not separate those numbers and try to imagine a fourth major player? Of course that player has 0% of the market because it has no phones available yet, but it is clear that Panasonic is NOT entering this market to be a niche player. Reason enough to take major notice.

    Saying the other three have 90% of the market make little sende unless stating the obvious is back in fashion.

    As for the mount, he says:

    "If you're to believe Canon's and Nikon's technical descriptions about how a bigger mount is better for future new optical designs, Nikon has the most flexible mount with Canon a bit behind that. The L-mount and the FE mount have some liabilities when it comes to ray-bending at the back."

    The obvious stance to that is what if you don't believe all that? Are we to imagine Panasonic does? 

    And then, how far can Canon and especially Nikon go if they lose even relatively few sales to Panasonic? Are they so healthy that they can trudge on for a long period unaffected or will alarm bells sound sooner rather than later.

    Looking at how well m4/3 turned out I am optimistic about this new project. 

    We'll see how it turns out but anyone claiming this is a failed project, or too high a mountain to climb, really doesn't understand what Panasonic has already pulled off in m4/3. Notably the GH series.



    Your understanding of the industry is abysmal.
    Well, you often claim people are wrong and mostly never support it with ANYTHING external to your own opinion so in this case we're on equal terms!
    My data supports his "opinion".

    Where's your data?

    For the record, I'm your so called"stalker" because you post massive amounts of misinformation that needs correction, constantly. Still, I'm surprised that you have attached your "brand" to Panasonic, as if they need your help.


    'Equal terms'  because, in this case, and for PANASONIC, in this area, there literally is NO DATA.

    They don't actually have a product on the market.

    It all boils down to opinion. 

    Of course, we can look elsewhere for supporting data and use that as the basis of an opinion. That is what I have done. 

    Let's take the EVF. After 10 years of enormous success with EVF, do you have any reason to believe that the EVF on the S Series will not be one of the best, if not the best on the market next year?

    Etc, etc
    edited September 2018
  • Reply 26 of 49
    avon b7avon b7 Posts: 4,298member
    An opinion:



    Pretty much in line with mine and for pretty much the same reasons.
  • Reply 27 of 49
    tmaytmay Posts: 3,982member
    avon b7 said:
    tmay said:
    avon b7 said:
    melgross said:
    avon b7 said:
    tmay said:
    avon b7 said:
    tmay said:
    avon b7 said:
    The big advantage for Panasonic (and Sony) is that they 'know' digital and everything associated with it (screens, viewfinders, video processors, software) far better than Canon or Nikon. They have far better logistical capacity (again, like Sony).

    I don't understand the boutique reference. This Panasonic system doesn't exist yet and any current boutique status for the mount will be lost quickly seeing as a system for the pro  markets without lenses is dead in the water. The same thing happened with m4/3. 

    Of course, Leica will also provide lenses for Panasonic without the Leica branding or certification (again, just like with m4/3).

    The cat will be amongst the pigeons as a major player with ample resources is entering a specialised and relatively small market and brings with it the kind of design agility that the likes of Canon and Nikon can only dream of. They will also back the product up with a new pro services network. Something that will be very easy to do given their existing networks. Sony and Panasonic know each other very well but in this case it is Sony that has something to lose.

    The biggest issue is the user and how to get him/her onboard but this announcement is largely a declaration of intentions and from the m4/3 (which will continue btw) experience, Panasonic won't just dip a toe into the water, it will carve out a space for itself. 




    https://www.sansmirror.com/newsviews/2018-mirrorless-camera/july-september-2018-mirrorl/the-fight-at-the-top.html

    "Too many folk believe that it is the product and technology that is the thing that wins a market war like we're about to have in mirrorless full frame. No, it's not. The thing that wins is having a customer focus. No customer, no sale, no matter what the technology. So it's how you engage and speak to that potential customer that's important. Sure, describing why your technology is better might be part of that, but you actually have to catch the customer's attention before you can get to that discussion."

    Sounds like like another company that we well know.
    Weird that that piece totally misses one major area for new growth: new users, with no entrenchment.

    The author seemingly failed to forecast the entry of Panasonic into this reduced market too.
    Read more, post less. Thom never stated anywhere that they wouldn't enter the full frame market, but now that they have, it's pretty easy to state that Panasonic is no disruption to either the Full Frame MILC or DSLR's from Canon or Nikon.

    I'll post the prior link, again;

    https://www.sansmirror.com/newsviews/2018-mirrorless-camera/july-september-2018-mirrorl/new-baby-elephant-enters.html

    If you think that there are a lot of new users to find in the market, you should post a link to back it up.

    Right now, Sony holds near 100% of the Full Frame MILC market, but that will drop rapidly as Canon and Nikon ship their first generation. Together, those three will have 90% of the market, and to Panasonic is many months away from delivery of their first models.

    If you don't agree with Thom, al least post some links stating how and why Panasonic is going to be taking marketshare from the three current players.

    Here's another quote;

    "How does the L mount stack up against the other mirrorless full frame mounts?
    • Canon RF — 20mm flange, 54mm throat
    • Consortium L — 20mm flange, 51.6mm throat
    • Nikon Z — 16mm flange, 55mm throat
    • Sony FE — 18mm flange, 46mm throat

    If you're to believe Canon's and Nikon's technical descriptions about how a bigger mount is better for future new optical designs, Nikon has the most flexible mount with Canon a bit behind that. The L-mount and the FE mount have some liabilities when it comes to ray-bending at the back"

    That he 'never said they wouldn't enter the market' is besides the point. No. He didn't even mention them!

    What a huge miss! He writes a piece on the 'fight at the top' in early September, when rumours were rife on this Panasonic move and didn't even make a passing reference to it. That failing undermined the whole piece.

    Then he writes another piece and calls them 'the baby elephants' in the room. Very clever! Simply because they have no current presence with this new proposal. It's actually more like a mammoth just entered the room. LOL. 

    "If you think that there are a lot of new users to find in the market, you should post a link to back it up"

    No need. The laws of nature. People leave the market retirement, death, career change etc and people enter the market.

    The point is, there is no entrenchment for those people. Not in knowhow, habits or equipment. In such a small market the actual change is more noticeable.

    From the other article:

    "Sigma has yet to produce a digital camera with convincing UI, focus, and low light performance."

    That is also wierd. Did he forget that although Sigma will be producing cameras for this mount, the real push will be to put lenses onto the market? 14 next year alone (mainly the same Sigmas currently available for Sony. Panasonic is in the opposite position. The real push is with the camera although it will also produce lenses.

    "Safety in numbers" 

    He says that for the, ehem 'little elephants', (protection for the 'dwarves' LOL), but then, when it suits him says:

    "Canikony" to claim "90% of the market"

    And promptly lumps Canon, Nikon and Sony into one group for no valid reason.

    Why not separate those numbers and try to imagine a fourth major player? Of course that player has 0% of the market because it has no phones available yet, but it is clear that Panasonic is NOT entering this market to be a niche player. Reason enough to take major notice.

    Saying the other three have 90% of the market make little sende unless stating the obvious is back in fashion.

    As for the mount, he says:

    "If you're to believe Canon's and Nikon's technical descriptions about how a bigger mount is better for future new optical designs, Nikon has the most flexible mount with Canon a bit behind that. The L-mount and the FE mount have some liabilities when it comes to ray-bending at the back."

    The obvious stance to that is what if you don't believe all that? Are we to imagine Panasonic does? 

    And then, how far can Canon and especially Nikon go if they lose even relatively few sales to Panasonic? Are they so healthy that they can trudge on for a long period unaffected or will alarm bells sound sooner rather than later.

    Looking at how well m4/3 turned out I am optimistic about this new project. 

    We'll see how it turns out but anyone claiming this is a failed project, or too high a mountain to climb, really doesn't understand what Panasonic has already pulled off in m4/3. Notably the GH series.



    Your understanding of the industry is abysmal.
    Well, you often claim people are wrong and mostly never support it with ANYTHING external to your own opinion so in this case we're on equal terms!
    My data supports his "opinion".

    Where's your data?

    For the record, I'm your so called"stalker" because you post massive amounts of misinformation that needs correction, constantly. Still, I'm surprised that you have attached your "brand" to Panasonic, as if they need your help.


    'Equal terms'  because, in this case, and for PANASONIC, in this area, there literally is NO DATA.

    They don't actually have a product on the market.

    It all boils down to opinion. 

    Of course, we can look elsewhere for supporting data and use that as the basis of an opinion. That is what I have done. 

    Let's take the EVF. After 10 years of enormous success with EVF, do you have any reason to believe that the EVF on the S Series will not be one of the best, if not the best on the market next year?

    Etc, etc
    You really don't have a clue; there are plenty of facts to work with.

    All of the current full frame cameras from Canon, Nikon, and Sony, use the Sony 3.69 million Dot EVF, or possibly the earlier 2.36 million Dot for some Sony models.

    The next generation will also have the option of the Sony 5.6 billon Dot EVF.

    So, Panasonic will likely choose, yet again, a Sony EVF. That's not news, but you are correct, it could be one of the best, but almost certainly won't be "the best", when it arrives.

    https://www.engadget.com/2018/05/29/sony-mirrorless-camera-evf/
  • Reply 28 of 49
    tmaytmay Posts: 3,982member
    avon b7 said:
    An opinion:



    Pretty much in line with mine and for pretty much the same reasons.
    Actually, I agree with that. 

    Panasonic is going to be just like all the others except for 4K 60P. They aren't going to be better, although they may provide more specific video control features like the G5.

    Petty sure that I stated the part about the 4K 60P earlier. Considering that the video was wrt to competition with Sony, I'm not seeing myself or Mel being incorrect in our assessments.
  • Reply 29 of 49
    melgrossmelgross Posts: 31,981member
    avon b7 said:
    melgross said:
    avon b7 said:
    tmay said:
    avon b7 said:
    tmay said:
    avon b7 said:
    The big advantage for Panasonic (and Sony) is that they 'know' digital and everything associated with it (screens, viewfinders, video processors, software) far better than Canon or Nikon. They have far better logistical capacity (again, like Sony).

    I don't understand the boutique reference. This Panasonic system doesn't exist yet and any current boutique status for the mount will be lost quickly seeing as a system for the pro  markets without lenses is dead in the water. The same thing happened with m4/3. 

    Of course, Leica will also provide lenses for Panasonic without the Leica branding or certification (again, just like with m4/3).

    The cat will be amongst the pigeons as a major player with ample resources is entering a specialised and relatively small market and brings with it the kind of design agility that the likes of Canon and Nikon can only dream of. They will also back the product up with a new pro services network. Something that will be very easy to do given their existing networks. Sony and Panasonic know each other very well but in this case it is Sony that has something to lose.

    The biggest issue is the user and how to get him/her onboard but this announcement is largely a declaration of intentions and from the m4/3 (which will continue btw) experience, Panasonic won't just dip a toe into the water, it will carve out a space for itself. 




    https://www.sansmirror.com/newsviews/2018-mirrorless-camera/july-september-2018-mirrorl/the-fight-at-the-top.html

    "Too many folk believe that it is the product and technology that is the thing that wins a market war like we're about to have in mirrorless full frame. No, it's not. The thing that wins is having a customer focus. No customer, no sale, no matter what the technology. So it's how you engage and speak to that potential customer that's important. Sure, describing why your technology is better might be part of that, but you actually have to catch the customer's attention before you can get to that discussion."

    Sounds like like another company that we well know.
    Weird that that piece totally misses one major area for new growth: new users, with no entrenchment.

    The author seemingly failed to forecast the entry of Panasonic into this reduced market too.
    Read more, post less. Thom never stated anywhere that they wouldn't enter the full frame market, but now that they have, it's pretty easy to state that Panasonic is no disruption to either the Full Frame MILC or DSLR's from Canon or Nikon.

    I'll post the prior link, again;

    https://www.sansmirror.com/newsviews/2018-mirrorless-camera/july-september-2018-mirrorl/new-baby-elephant-enters.html

    If you think that there are a lot of new users to find in the market, you should post a link to back it up.

    Right now, Sony holds near 100% of the Full Frame MILC market, but that will drop rapidly as Canon and Nikon ship their first generation. Together, those three will have 90% of the market, and to Panasonic is many months away from delivery of their first models.

    If you don't agree with Thom, al least post some links stating how and why Panasonic is going to be taking marketshare from the three current players.

    Here's another quote;

    "How does the L mount stack up against the other mirrorless full frame mounts?
    • Canon RF — 20mm flange, 54mm throat
    • Consortium L — 20mm flange, 51.6mm throat
    • Nikon Z — 16mm flange, 55mm throat
    • Sony FE — 18mm flange, 46mm throat

    If you're to believe Canon's and Nikon's technical descriptions about how a bigger mount is better for future new optical designs, Nikon has the most flexible mount with Canon a bit behind that. The L-mount and the FE mount have some liabilities when it comes to ray-bending at the back"

    That he 'never said they wouldn't enter the market' is besides the point. No. He didn't even mention them!

    What a huge miss! He writes a piece on the 'fight at the top' in early September, when rumours were rife on this Panasonic move and didn't even make a passing reference to it. That failing undermined the whole piece.

    Then he writes another piece and calls them 'the baby elephants' in the room. Very clever! Simply because they have no current presence with this new proposal. It's actually more like a mammoth just entered the room. LOL. 

    "If you think that there are a lot of new users to find in the market, you should post a link to back it up"

    No need. The laws of nature. People leave the market retirement, death, career change etc and people enter the market.

    The point is, there is no entrenchment for those people. Not in knowhow, habits or equipment. In such a small market the actual change is more noticeable.

    From the other article:

    "Sigma has yet to produce a digital camera with convincing UI, focus, and low light performance."

    That is also wierd. Did he forget that although Sigma will be producing cameras for this mount, the real push will be to put lenses onto the market? 14 next year alone (mainly the same Sigmas currently available for Sony. Panasonic is in the opposite position. The real push is with the camera although it will also produce lenses.

    "Safety in numbers" 

    He says that for the, ehem 'little elephants', (protection for the 'dwarves' LOL), but then, when it suits him says:

    "Canikony" to claim "90% of the market"

    And promptly lumps Canon, Nikon and Sony into one group for no valid reason.

    Why not separate those numbers and try to imagine a fourth major player? Of course that player has 0% of the market because it has no phones available yet, but it is clear that Panasonic is NOT entering this market to be a niche player. Reason enough to take major notice.

    Saying the other three have 90% of the market make little sende unless stating the obvious is back in fashion.

    As for the mount, he says:

    "If you're to believe Canon's and Nikon's technical descriptions about how a bigger mount is better for future new optical designs, Nikon has the most flexible mount with Canon a bit behind that. The L-mount and the FE mount have some liabilities when it comes to ray-bending at the back."

    The obvious stance to that is what if you don't believe all that? Are we to imagine Panasonic does? 

    And then, how far can Canon and especially Nikon go if they lose even relatively few sales to Panasonic? Are they so healthy that they can trudge on for a long period unaffected or will alarm bells sound sooner rather than later.

    Looking at how well m4/3 turned out I am optimistic about this new project. 

    We'll see how it turns out but anyone claiming this is a failed project, or too high a mountain to climb, really doesn't understand what Panasonic has already pulled off in m4/3. Notably the GH series.



    Your understanding of the industry is abysmal.
    Well, you often claim people are wrong and mostly never support it with ANYTHING external to your own opinion so in this case we're on equal terms!

    Am I right in stating that? because on numerous occasions I have asked you for links and you have not given them.

    Do you really think Panasonic plans to dip a toe into this market or make a concerted effort?

    It plans to make a splash. The announcement and intention were clear. Minimum 14 lenses in one year. Major hardware, a complete Pro Service network. It won't happen overnight but it has the resources to back it all up and there is zero reason to think they can't actually make a dent.

    The aim is to take a slice of that 90% pie.

    If this announcement had been made by Olympus I would have been far more skeptical.



    When they’re wrong, they’re wrong. What I’ve said is easily found to be true. But it’s good you admit that you have no evidence to back up your claim, which really, flies in the face of the facts of the industry, which is that Panasonic is a very small player in the camera area. In video, it’s different, but that’s not what this is about.

    so, both Canon and Nikon have over 60 lenses in their lineup. Most of Nikon’s can be used with their adapter, with no loss of service. All of Canon’s can be used with no loss of service with any of their 3 adapters. Both companies will be coming out with a lot of mirrorless oriented lenses, and Sigma, part of this new alliance will continue to make lens’s for both.
    tmay
  • Reply 30 of 49
    melgrossmelgross Posts: 31,981member

    avon b7 said:
    tmay said:
    avon b7 said:
    melgross said:
    avon b7 said:
    tmay said:
    avon b7 said:
    tmay said:
    avon b7 said:
    The big advantage for Panasonic (and Sony) is that they 'know' digital and everything associated with it (screens, viewfinders, video processors, software) far better than Canon or Nikon. They have far better logistical capacity (again, like Sony).

    I don't understand the boutique reference. This Panasonic system doesn't exist yet and any current boutique status for the mount will be lost quickly seeing as a system for the pro  markets without lenses is dead in the water. The same thing happened with m4/3. 

    Of course, Leica will also provide lenses for Panasonic without the Leica branding or certification (again, just like with m4/3).

    The cat will be amongst the pigeons as a major player with ample resources is entering a specialised and relatively small market and brings with it the kind of design agility that the likes of Canon and Nikon can only dream of. They will also back the product up with a new pro services network. Something that will be very easy to do given their existing networks. Sony and Panasonic know each other very well but in this case it is Sony that has something to lose.

    The biggest issue is the user and how to get him/her onboard but this announcement is largely a declaration of intentions and from the m4/3 (which will continue btw) experience, Panasonic won't just dip a toe into the water, it will carve out a space for itself. 




    https://www.sansmirror.com/newsviews/2018-mirrorless-camera/july-september-2018-mirrorl/the-fight-at-the-top.html

    "Too many folk believe that it is the product and technology that is the thing that wins a market war like we're about to have in mirrorless full frame. No, it's not. The thing that wins is having a customer focus. No customer, no sale, no matter what the technology. So it's how you engage and speak to that potential customer that's important. Sure, describing why your technology is better might be part of that, but you actually have to catch the customer's attention before you can get to that discussion."

    Sounds like like another company that we well know.
    Weird that that piece totally misses one major area for new growth: new users, with no entrenchment.

    The author seemingly failed to forecast the entry of Panasonic into this reduced market too.
    Read more, post less. Thom never stated anywhere that they wouldn't enter the full frame market, but now that they have, it's pretty easy to state that Panasonic is no disruption to either the Full Frame MILC or DSLR's from Canon or Nikon.

    I'll post the prior link, again;

    https://www.sansmirror.com/newsviews/2018-mirrorless-camera/july-september-2018-mirrorl/new-baby-elephant-enters.html

    If you think that there are a lot of new users to find in the market, you should post a link to back it up.

    Right now, Sony holds near 100% of the Full Frame MILC market, but that will drop rapidly as Canon and Nikon ship their first generation. Together, those three will have 90% of the market, and to Panasonic is many months away from delivery of their first models.

    If you don't agree with Thom, al least post some links stating how and why Panasonic is going to be taking marketshare from the three current players.

    Here's another quote;

    "How does the L mount stack up against the other mirrorless full frame mounts?
    • Canon RF — 20mm flange, 54mm throat
    • Consortium L — 20mm flange, 51.6mm throat
    • Nikon Z — 16mm flange, 55mm throat
    • Sony FE — 18mm flange, 46mm throat

    If you're to believe Canon's and Nikon's technical descriptions about how a bigger mount is better for future new optical designs, Nikon has the most flexible mount with Canon a bit behind that. The L-mount and the FE mount have some liabilities when it comes to ray-bending at the back"

    That he 'never said they wouldn't enter the market' is besides the point. No. He didn't even mention them!

    What a huge miss! He writes a piece on the 'fight at the top' in early September, when rumours were rife on this Panasonic move and didn't even make a passing reference to it. That failing undermined the whole piece.

    Then he writes another piece and calls them 'the baby elephants' in the room. Very clever! Simply because they have no current presence with this new proposal. It's actually more like a mammoth just entered the room. LOL. 

    "If you think that there are a lot of new users to find in the market, you should post a link to back it up"

    No need. The laws of nature. People leave the market retirement, death, career change etc and people enter the market.

    The point is, there is no entrenchment for those people. Not in knowhow, habits or equipment. In such a small market the actual change is more noticeable.

    From the other article:

    "Sigma has yet to produce a digital camera with convincing UI, focus, and low light performance."

    That is also wierd. Did he forget that although Sigma will be producing cameras for this mount, the real push will be to put lenses onto the market? 14 next year alone (mainly the same Sigmas currently available for Sony. Panasonic is in the opposite position. The real push is with the camera although it will also produce lenses.

    "Safety in numbers" 

    He says that for the, ehem 'little elephants', (protection for the 'dwarves' LOL), but then, when it suits him says:

    "Canikony" to claim "90% of the market"

    And promptly lumps Canon, Nikon and Sony into one group for no valid reason.

    Why not separate those numbers and try to imagine a fourth major player? Of course that player has 0% of the market because it has no phones available yet, but it is clear that Panasonic is NOT entering this market to be a niche player. Reason enough to take major notice.

    Saying the other three have 90% of the market make little sende unless stating the obvious is back in fashion.

    As for the mount, he says:

    "If you're to believe Canon's and Nikon's technical descriptions about how a bigger mount is better for future new optical designs, Nikon has the most flexible mount with Canon a bit behind that. The L-mount and the FE mount have some liabilities when it comes to ray-bending at the back."

    The obvious stance to that is what if you don't believe all that? Are we to imagine Panasonic does? 

    And then, how far can Canon and especially Nikon go if they lose even relatively few sales to Panasonic? Are they so healthy that they can trudge on for a long period unaffected or will alarm bells sound sooner rather than later.

    Looking at how well m4/3 turned out I am optimistic about this new project. 

    We'll see how it turns out but anyone claiming this is a failed project, or too high a mountain to climb, really doesn't understand what Panasonic has already pulled off in m4/3. Notably the GH series.



    Your understanding of the industry is abysmal.
    Well, you often claim people are wrong and mostly never support it with ANYTHING external to your own opinion so in this case we're on equal terms!
    My data supports his "opinion".

    Where's your data?

    For the record, I'm your so called"stalker" because you post massive amounts of misinformation that needs correction, constantly. Still, I'm surprised that you have attached your "brand" to Panasonic, as if they need your help.


    'Equal terms'  because, in this case, and for PANASONIC, in this area, there literally is NO DATA.

    They don't actually have a product on the market.

    It all boils down to opinion. 

    Of course, we can look elsewhere for supporting data and use that as the basis of an opinion. That is what I have done. 

    Let's take the EVF. After 10 years of enormous success with EVF, do you have any reason to believe that the EVF on the S Series will not be one of the best, if not the best on the market next year?

    Etc, etc
    No data? For what? They make cameras. They’ve even made a few good ones. They’re a partner of Leica, and have made lenses and cameras for them, as well as cheaper versions of leica’s under their own brand name.

    what do you mean by “enormous success”?
    tmay
  • Reply 31 of 49
    avon b7avon b7 Posts: 4,298member
    tmay said:
    avon b7 said:
    tmay said:
    avon b7 said:
    melgross said:
    avon b7 said:
    tmay said:
    avon b7 said:
    tmay said:
    avon b7 said:
    The big advantage for Panasonic (and Sony) is that they 'know' digital and everything associated with it (screens, viewfinders, video processors, software) far better than Canon or Nikon. They have far better logistical capacity (again, like Sony).

    I don't understand the boutique reference. This Panasonic system doesn't exist yet and any current boutique status for the mount will be lost quickly seeing as a system for the pro  markets without lenses is dead in the water. The same thing happened with m4/3. 

    Of course, Leica will also provide lenses for Panasonic without the Leica branding or certification (again, just like with m4/3).

    The cat will be amongst the pigeons as a major player with ample resources is entering a specialised and relatively small market and brings with it the kind of design agility that the likes of Canon and Nikon can only dream of. They will also back the product up with a new pro services network. Something that will be very easy to do given their existing networks. Sony and Panasonic know each other very well but in this case it is Sony that has something to lose.

    The biggest issue is the user and how to get him/her onboard but this announcement is largely a declaration of intentions and from the m4/3 (which will continue btw) experience, Panasonic won't just dip a toe into the water, it will carve out a space for itself. 




    https://www.sansmirror.com/newsviews/2018-mirrorless-camera/july-september-2018-mirrorl/the-fight-at-the-top.html

    "Too many folk believe that it is the product and technology that is the thing that wins a market war like we're about to have in mirrorless full frame. No, it's not. The thing that wins is having a customer focus. No customer, no sale, no matter what the technology. So it's how you engage and speak to that potential customer that's important. Sure, describing why your technology is better might be part of that, but you actually have to catch the customer's attention before you can get to that discussion."

    Sounds like like another company that we well know.
    Weird that that piece totally misses one major area for new growth: new users, with no entrenchment.

    The author seemingly failed to forecast the entry of Panasonic into this reduced market too.
    Read more, post less. Thom never stated anywhere that they wouldn't enter the full frame market, but now that they have, it's pretty easy to state that Panasonic is no disruption to either the Full Frame MILC or DSLR's from Canon or Nikon.

    I'll post the prior link, again;

    https://www.sansmirror.com/newsviews/2018-mirrorless-camera/july-september-2018-mirrorl/new-baby-elephant-enters.html

    If you think that there are a lot of new users to find in the market, you should post a link to back it up.

    Right now, Sony holds near 100% of the Full Frame MILC market, but that will drop rapidly as Canon and Nikon ship their first generation. Together, those three will have 90% of the market, and to Panasonic is many months away from delivery of their first models.

    If you don't agree with Thom, al least post some links stating how and why Panasonic is going to be taking marketshare from the three current players.

    Here's another quote;

    "How does the L mount stack up against the other mirrorless full frame mounts?
    • Canon RF — 20mm flange, 54mm throat
    • Consortium L — 20mm flange, 51.6mm throat
    • Nikon Z — 16mm flange, 55mm throat
    • Sony FE — 18mm flange, 46mm throat

    If you're to believe Canon's and Nikon's technical descriptions about how a bigger mount is better for future new optical designs, Nikon has the most flexible mount with Canon a bit behind that. The L-mount and the FE mount have some liabilities when it comes to ray-bending at the back"

    That he 'never said they wouldn't enter the market' is besides the point. No. He didn't even mention them!

    What a huge miss! He writes a piece on the 'fight at the top' in early September, when rumours were rife on this Panasonic move and didn't even make a passing reference to it. That failing undermined the whole piece.

    Then he writes another piece and calls them 'the baby elephants' in the room. Very clever! Simply because they have no current presence with this new proposal. It's actually more like a mammoth just entered the room. LOL. 

    "If you think that there are a lot of new users to find in the market, you should post a link to back it up"

    No need. The laws of nature. People leave the market retirement, death, career change etc and people enter the market.

    The point is, there is no entrenchment for those people. Not in knowhow, habits or equipment. In such a small market the actual change is more noticeable.

    From the other article:

    "Sigma has yet to produce a digital camera with convincing UI, focus, and low light performance."

    That is also wierd. Did he forget that although Sigma will be producing cameras for this mount, the real push will be to put lenses onto the market? 14 next year alone (mainly the same Sigmas currently available for Sony. Panasonic is in the opposite position. The real push is with the camera although it will also produce lenses.

    "Safety in numbers" 

    He says that for the, ehem 'little elephants', (protection for the 'dwarves' LOL), but then, when it suits him says:

    "Canikony" to claim "90% of the market"

    And promptly lumps Canon, Nikon and Sony into one group for no valid reason.

    Why not separate those numbers and try to imagine a fourth major player? Of course that player has 0% of the market because it has no phones available yet, but it is clear that Panasonic is NOT entering this market to be a niche player. Reason enough to take major notice.

    Saying the other three have 90% of the market make little sende unless stating the obvious is back in fashion.

    As for the mount, he says:

    "If you're to believe Canon's and Nikon's technical descriptions about how a bigger mount is better for future new optical designs, Nikon has the most flexible mount with Canon a bit behind that. The L-mount and the FE mount have some liabilities when it comes to ray-bending at the back."

    The obvious stance to that is what if you don't believe all that? Are we to imagine Panasonic does? 

    And then, how far can Canon and especially Nikon go if they lose even relatively few sales to Panasonic? Are they so healthy that they can trudge on for a long period unaffected or will alarm bells sound sooner rather than later.

    Looking at how well m4/3 turned out I am optimistic about this new project. 

    We'll see how it turns out but anyone claiming this is a failed project, or too high a mountain to climb, really doesn't understand what Panasonic has already pulled off in m4/3. Notably the GH series.



    Your understanding of the industry is abysmal.
    Well, you often claim people are wrong and mostly never support it with ANYTHING external to your own opinion so in this case we're on equal terms!
    My data supports his "opinion".

    Where's your data?

    For the record, I'm your so called"stalker" because you post massive amounts of misinformation that needs correction, constantly. Still, I'm surprised that you have attached your "brand" to Panasonic, as if they need your help.


    'Equal terms'  because, in this case, and for PANASONIC, in this area, there literally is NO DATA.

    They don't actually have a product on the market.

    It all boils down to opinion. 

    Of course, we can look elsewhere for supporting data and use that as the basis of an opinion. That is what I have done. 

    Let's take the EVF. After 10 years of enormous success with EVF, do you have any reason to believe that the EVF on the S Series will not be one of the best, if not the best on the market next year?

    Etc, etc
    You really don't have a clue; there are plenty of facts to work with.

    All of the current full frame cameras from Canon, Nikon, and Sony, use the Sony 3.69 million Dot EVF, or possibly the earlier 2.36 million Dot for some Sony models.

    The next generation will also have the option of the Sony 5.6 billon Dot EVF.

    So, Panasonic will likely choose, yet again, a Sony EVF. That's not news, but you are correct, it could be one of the best, but almost certainly won't be "the best", when it arrives.

    https://www.engadget.com/2018/05/29/sony-mirrorless-camera-evf/
    Specifically, on the EVF, what has Panasonic said publicly for this new model?

    You must know because it has been in just about every summary of the presentation over the last 24 hours.

    A clue:

    https://camerajabber.com/panasonic-lumix-s1r-review/

    "Panasonic has said that the resolution of the electronic viewfinder (EVF) will beat the competitionCanon, Sony and Nikon all have EVFs with 3,690,000 dots, so that’s promising news for the S1R"

    Now, feel free to speculate but that information came direct from the horse's mouth. That is not speculation on my part. Some 'facts to work with' as you might say. It is fact as presented by Panasonic. They have ten years of m4/3 experience working with some of the best EVFs on the market.

    In the case of Sony, and as I said earlier, they are up there with Panasonic on the EVFs, screens, software etc.
    edited September 2018
  • Reply 32 of 49
    Way back in the day Panasonic and Leica made a number of cameras jointly and I own a few. The Leica Digilux 2 was and still is a favorite. It has a permanently attached Leica lens setup in a body designed to handle like the film cameras instead of a computer with a lens. There was a Lumix version as well that differed in the way it processed the image, the Lumix images were more saturated.

    The lens was fast and has the Leica look. It is too bad that they never used that lens design with any other cameras as it was special.

    The Leica/Panasonic 4/3rds and Micro 4/3rds lenses are quite good- I own a number of them and they are worthy of the Leica name.

    Hopefully these will be great cameras, but be forewarned about the cost of Leica lenses.
  • Reply 33 of 49
    tmaytmay Posts: 3,982member
    avon b7 said:
    tmay said:
    avon b7 said:
    tmay said:
    avon b7 said:
    melgross said:
    avon b7 said:
    tmay said:
    avon b7 said:
    tmay said:
    avon b7 said:
    The big advantage for Panasonic (and Sony) is that they 'know' digital and everything associated with it (screens, viewfinders, video processors, software) far better than Canon or Nikon. They have far better logistical capacity (again, like Sony).

    I don't understand the boutique reference. This Panasonic system doesn't exist yet and any current boutique status for the mount will be lost quickly seeing as a system for the pro  markets without lenses is dead in the water. The same thing happened with m4/3. 

    Of course, Leica will also provide lenses for Panasonic without the Leica branding or certification (again, just like with m4/3).

    The cat will be amongst the pigeons as a major player with ample resources is entering a specialised and relatively small market and brings with it the kind of design agility that the likes of Canon and Nikon can only dream of. They will also back the product up with a new pro services network. Something that will be very easy to do given their existing networks. Sony and Panasonic know each other very well but in this case it is Sony that has something to lose.

    The biggest issue is the user and how to get him/her onboard but this announcement is largely a declaration of intentions and from the m4/3 (which will continue btw) experience, Panasonic won't just dip a toe into the water, it will carve out a space for itself. 




    https://www.sansmirror.com/newsviews/2018-mirrorless-camera/july-september-2018-mirrorl/the-fight-at-the-top.html

    "Too many folk believe that it is the product and technology that is the thing that wins a market war like we're about to have in mirrorless full frame. No, it's not. The thing that wins is having a customer focus. No customer, no sale, no matter what the technology. So it's how you engage and speak to that potential customer that's important. Sure, describing why your technology is better might be part of that, but you actually have to catch the customer's attention before you can get to that discussion."

    Sounds like like another company that we well know.
    Weird that that piece totally misses one major area for new growth: new users, with no entrenchment.

    The author seemingly failed to forecast the entry of Panasonic into this reduced market too.
    Read more, post less. Thom never stated anywhere that they wouldn't enter the full frame market, but now that they have, it's pretty easy to state that Panasonic is no disruption to either the Full Frame MILC or DSLR's from Canon or Nikon.

    I'll post the prior link, again;

    https://www.sansmirror.com/newsviews/2018-mirrorless-camera/july-september-2018-mirrorl/new-baby-elephant-enters.html

    If you think that there are a lot of new users to find in the market, you should post a link to back it up.

    Right now, Sony holds near 100% of the Full Frame MILC market, but that will drop rapidly as Canon and Nikon ship their first generation. Together, those three will have 90% of the market, and to Panasonic is many months away from delivery of their first models.

    If you don't agree with Thom, al least post some links stating how and why Panasonic is going to be taking marketshare from the three current players.

    Here's another quote;

    "How does the L mount stack up against the other mirrorless full frame mounts?
    • Canon RF — 20mm flange, 54mm throat
    • Consortium L — 20mm flange, 51.6mm throat
    • Nikon Z — 16mm flange, 55mm throat
    • Sony FE — 18mm flange, 46mm throat

    If you're to believe Canon's and Nikon's technical descriptions about how a bigger mount is better for future new optical designs, Nikon has the most flexible mount with Canon a bit behind that. The L-mount and the FE mount have some liabilities when it comes to ray-bending at the back"

    That he 'never said they wouldn't enter the market' is besides the point. No. He didn't even mention them!

    What a huge miss! He writes a piece on the 'fight at the top' in early September, when rumours were rife on this Panasonic move and didn't even make a passing reference to it. That failing undermined the whole piece.

    Then he writes another piece and calls them 'the baby elephants' in the room. Very clever! Simply because they have no current presence with this new proposal. It's actually more like a mammoth just entered the room. LOL. 

    "If you think that there are a lot of new users to find in the market, you should post a link to back it up"

    No need. The laws of nature. People leave the market retirement, death, career change etc and people enter the market.

    The point is, there is no entrenchment for those people. Not in knowhow, habits or equipment. In such a small market the actual change is more noticeable.

    From the other article:

    "Sigma has yet to produce a digital camera with convincing UI, focus, and low light performance."

    That is also wierd. Did he forget that although Sigma will be producing cameras for this mount, the real push will be to put lenses onto the market? 14 next year alone (mainly the same Sigmas currently available for Sony. Panasonic is in the opposite position. The real push is with the camera although it will also produce lenses.

    "Safety in numbers" 

    He says that for the, ehem 'little elephants', (protection for the 'dwarves' LOL), but then, when it suits him says:

    "Canikony" to claim "90% of the market"

    And promptly lumps Canon, Nikon and Sony into one group for no valid reason.

    Why not separate those numbers and try to imagine a fourth major player? Of course that player has 0% of the market because it has no phones available yet, but it is clear that Panasonic is NOT entering this market to be a niche player. Reason enough to take major notice.

    Saying the other three have 90% of the market make little sende unless stating the obvious is back in fashion.

    As for the mount, he says:

    "If you're to believe Canon's and Nikon's technical descriptions about how a bigger mount is better for future new optical designs, Nikon has the most flexible mount with Canon a bit behind that. The L-mount and the FE mount have some liabilities when it comes to ray-bending at the back."

    The obvious stance to that is what if you don't believe all that? Are we to imagine Panasonic does? 

    And then, how far can Canon and especially Nikon go if they lose even relatively few sales to Panasonic? Are they so healthy that they can trudge on for a long period unaffected or will alarm bells sound sooner rather than later.

    Looking at how well m4/3 turned out I am optimistic about this new project. 

    We'll see how it turns out but anyone claiming this is a failed project, or too high a mountain to climb, really doesn't understand what Panasonic has already pulled off in m4/3. Notably the GH series.



    Your understanding of the industry is abysmal.
    Well, you often claim people are wrong and mostly never support it with ANYTHING external to your own opinion so in this case we're on equal terms!
    My data supports his "opinion".

    Where's your data?

    For the record, I'm your so called"stalker" because you post massive amounts of misinformation that needs correction, constantly. Still, I'm surprised that you have attached your "brand" to Panasonic, as if they need your help.


    'Equal terms'  because, in this case, and for PANASONIC, in this area, there literally is NO DATA.

    They don't actually have a product on the market.

    It all boils down to opinion. 

    Of course, we can look elsewhere for supporting data and use that as the basis of an opinion. That is what I have done. 

    Let's take the EVF. After 10 years of enormous success with EVF, do you have any reason to believe that the EVF on the S Series will not be one of the best, if not the best on the market next year?

    Etc, etc
    You really don't have a clue; there are plenty of facts to work with.

    All of the current full frame cameras from Canon, Nikon, and Sony, use the Sony 3.69 million Dot EVF, or possibly the earlier 2.36 million Dot for some Sony models.

    The next generation will also have the option of the Sony 5.6 billon Dot EVF.

    So, Panasonic will likely choose, yet again, a Sony EVF. That's not news, but you are correct, it could be one of the best, but almost certainly won't be "the best", when it arrives.

    https://www.engadget.com/2018/05/29/sony-mirrorless-camera-evf/
    Specifically, on the EVF, what has Panasonic said publicly for this new model?

    You must know because it has been in just about every summary of the presentation over the last 24 hours.

    A clue:

    https://camerajabber.com/panasonic-lumix-s1r-review/

    "Panasonic has said that the resolution of the electronic viewfinder (EVF) will beat the competitionCanon, Sony and Nikon all have EVFs with 3,690,000 dots, so that’s promising news for the S1R"

    Now, feel free to speculate but that information came direct from the horse's mouth. That is not speculation on my part. Some 'facts to work with' as you might say. It is fact as presented by Panasonic. They have ten years of m4/3 experience working with some of the best EVFs on the market.

    In the case of Sony, and as I said earlier, they are up there with Panasonic on the EVFs, screens, software etc.
    It's a Sony next generation EVF.

    I fucking posted a link for that, but stated that Canon and Nikon will likely have it in their "Pro" models before Panasonic delivers it's two new models. 

    If Panasonic hurries up, they might hold the crown for EVF resolution for a short time, but ultimately, it won't make any difference. I'm guessing that they use a Sony full frame sensor as well. 
  • Reply 34 of 49
    tmaytmay Posts: 3,982member

    davgreg said:
    Way back in the day Panasonic and Leica made a number of cameras jointly and I own a few. The Leica Digilux 2 was and still is a favorite. It has a permanently attached Leica lens setup in a body designed to handle like the film cameras instead of a computer with a lens. There was a Lumix version as well that differed in the way it processed the image, the Lumix images were more saturated.

    The lens was fast and has the Leica look. It is too bad that they never used that lens design with any other cameras as it was special.

    The Leica/Panasonic 4/3rds and Micro 4/3rds lenses are quite good- I own a number of them and they are worthy of the Leica name.

    Hopefully these will be great cameras, but be forewarned about the cost of Leica lenses.
    I noted that earlier about the Leica lenses; it's common knowledge that they are very good, and also, very expensive.
  • Reply 35 of 49
    avon b7avon b7 Posts: 4,298member
    tmay said:
    avon b7 said:
    tmay said:
    avon b7 said:
    tmay said:
    avon b7 said:
    melgross said:
    avon b7 said:
    tmay said:
    avon b7 said:
    tmay said:
    avon b7 said:
    The big advantage for Panasonic (and Sony) is that they 'know' digital and everything associated with it (screens, viewfinders, video processors, software) far better than Canon or Nikon. They have far better logistical capacity (again, like Sony).

    I don't understand the boutique reference. This Panasonic system doesn't exist yet and any current boutique status for the mount will be lost quickly seeing as a system for the pro  markets without lenses is dead in the water. The same thing happened with m4/3. 

    Of course, Leica will also provide lenses for Panasonic without the Leica branding or certification (again, just like with m4/3).

    The cat will be amongst the pigeons as a major player with ample resources is entering a specialised and relatively small market and brings with it the kind of design agility that the likes of Canon and Nikon can only dream of. They will also back the product up with a new pro services network. Something that will be very easy to do given their existing networks. Sony and Panasonic know each other very well but in this case it is Sony that has something to lose.

    The biggest issue is the user and how to get him/her onboard but this announcement is largely a declaration of intentions and from the m4/3 (which will continue btw) experience, Panasonic won't just dip a toe into the water, it will carve out a space for itself. 




    https://www.sansmirror.com/newsviews/2018-mirrorless-camera/july-september-2018-mirrorl/the-fight-at-the-top.html

    "Too many folk believe that it is the product and technology that is the thing that wins a market war like we're about to have in mirrorless full frame. No, it's not. The thing that wins is having a customer focus. No customer, no sale, no matter what the technology. So it's how you engage and speak to that potential customer that's important. Sure, describing why your technology is better might be part of that, but you actually have to catch the customer's attention before you can get to that discussion."

    Sounds like like another company that we well know.
    Weird that that piece totally misses one major area for new growth: new users, with no entrenchment.

    The author seemingly failed to forecast the entry of Panasonic into this reduced market too.
    Read more, post less. Thom never stated anywhere that they wouldn't enter the full frame market, but now that they have, it's pretty easy to state that Panasonic is no disruption to either the Full Frame MILC or DSLR's from Canon or Nikon.

    I'll post the prior link, again;

    https://www.sansmirror.com/newsviews/2018-mirrorless-camera/july-september-2018-mirrorl/new-baby-elephant-enters.html

    If you think that there are a lot of new users to find in the market, you should post a link to back it up.

    Right now, Sony holds near 100% of the Full Frame MILC market, but that will drop rapidly as Canon and Nikon ship their first generation. Together, those three will have 90% of the market, and to Panasonic is many months away from delivery of their first models.

    If you don't agree with Thom, al least post some links stating how and why Panasonic is going to be taking marketshare from the three current players.

    Here's another quote;

    "How does the L mount stack up against the other mirrorless full frame mounts?
    • Canon RF — 20mm flange, 54mm throat
    • Consortium L — 20mm flange, 51.6mm throat
    • Nikon Z — 16mm flange, 55mm throat
    • Sony FE — 18mm flange, 46mm throat

    If you're to believe Canon's and Nikon's technical descriptions about how a bigger mount is better for future new optical designs, Nikon has the most flexible mount with Canon a bit behind that. The L-mount and the FE mount have some liabilities when it comes to ray-bending at the back"

    That he 'never said they wouldn't enter the market' is besides the point. No. He didn't even mention them!

    What a huge miss! He writes a piece on the 'fight at the top' in early September, when rumours were rife on this Panasonic move and didn't even make a passing reference to it. That failing undermined the whole piece.

    Then he writes another piece and calls them 'the baby elephants' in the room. Very clever! Simply because they have no current presence with this new proposal. It's actually more like a mammoth just entered the room. LOL. 

    "If you think that there are a lot of new users to find in the market, you should post a link to back it up"

    No need. The laws of nature. People leave the market retirement, death, career change etc and people enter the market.

    The point is, there is no entrenchment for those people. Not in knowhow, habits or equipment. In such a small market the actual change is more noticeable.

    From the other article:

    "Sigma has yet to produce a digital camera with convincing UI, focus, and low light performance."

    That is also wierd. Did he forget that although Sigma will be producing cameras for this mount, the real push will be to put lenses onto the market? 14 next year alone (mainly the same Sigmas currently available for Sony. Panasonic is in the opposite position. The real push is with the camera although it will also produce lenses.

    "Safety in numbers" 

    He says that for the, ehem 'little elephants', (protection for the 'dwarves' LOL), but then, when it suits him says:

    "Canikony" to claim "90% of the market"

    And promptly lumps Canon, Nikon and Sony into one group for no valid reason.

    Why not separate those numbers and try to imagine a fourth major player? Of course that player has 0% of the market because it has no phones available yet, but it is clear that Panasonic is NOT entering this market to be a niche player. Reason enough to take major notice.

    Saying the other three have 90% of the market make little sende unless stating the obvious is back in fashion.

    As for the mount, he says:

    "If you're to believe Canon's and Nikon's technical descriptions about how a bigger mount is better for future new optical designs, Nikon has the most flexible mount with Canon a bit behind that. The L-mount and the FE mount have some liabilities when it comes to ray-bending at the back."

    The obvious stance to that is what if you don't believe all that? Are we to imagine Panasonic does? 

    And then, how far can Canon and especially Nikon go if they lose even relatively few sales to Panasonic? Are they so healthy that they can trudge on for a long period unaffected or will alarm bells sound sooner rather than later.

    Looking at how well m4/3 turned out I am optimistic about this new project. 

    We'll see how it turns out but anyone claiming this is a failed project, or too high a mountain to climb, really doesn't understand what Panasonic has already pulled off in m4/3. Notably the GH series.



    Your understanding of the industry is abysmal.
    Well, you often claim people are wrong and mostly never support it with ANYTHING external to your own opinion so in this case we're on equal terms!
    My data supports his "opinion".

    Where's your data?

    For the record, I'm your so called"stalker" because you post massive amounts of misinformation that needs correction, constantly. Still, I'm surprised that you have attached your "brand" to Panasonic, as if they need your help.


    'Equal terms'  because, in this case, and for PANASONIC, in this area, there literally is NO DATA.

    They don't actually have a product on the market.

    It all boils down to opinion. 

    Of course, we can look elsewhere for supporting data and use that as the basis of an opinion. That is what I have done. 

    Let's take the EVF. After 10 years of enormous success with EVF, do you have any reason to believe that the EVF on the S Series will not be one of the best, if not the best on the market next year?

    Etc, etc
    You really don't have a clue; there are plenty of facts to work with.

    All of the current full frame cameras from Canon, Nikon, and Sony, use the Sony 3.69 million Dot EVF, or possibly the earlier 2.36 million Dot for some Sony models.

    The next generation will also have the option of the Sony 5.6 billon Dot EVF.

    So, Panasonic will likely choose, yet again, a Sony EVF. That's not news, but you are correct, it could be one of the best, but almost certainly won't be "the best", when it arrives.

    https://www.engadget.com/2018/05/29/sony-mirrorless-camera-evf/
    Specifically, on the EVF, what has Panasonic said publicly for this new model?

    You must know because it has been in just about every summary of the presentation over the last 24 hours.

    A clue:

    https://camerajabber.com/panasonic-lumix-s1r-review/

    "Panasonic has said that the resolution of the electronic viewfinder (EVF) will beat the competitionCanon, Sony and Nikon all have EVFs with 3,690,000 dots, so that’s promising news for the S1R"

    Now, feel free to speculate but that information came direct from the horse's mouth. That is not speculation on my part. Some 'facts to work with' as you might say. It is fact as presented by Panasonic. They have ten years of m4/3 experience working with some of the best EVFs on the market.

    In the case of Sony, and as I said earlier, they are up there with Panasonic on the EVFs, screens, software etc.
    It's a Sony next generation EVF.

    I fucking posted a link for that, but stated that Canon and Nikon will likely have it in their "Pro" models before Panasonic delivers it's two new models. 

    If Panasonic hurries up, they might hold the crown for EVF resolution for a short time, but ultimately, it won't make any difference. I'm guessing that they use a Sony full frame sensor as well. 
    First you say:

    "So, Panasonic will likely choose, yet again, a Sony EVF. That's not news, but you are correct, it could be one of the best, but almost certainly won't be "the best", when it arrives."

    Then you say:

    "It's a Sony next generation EVF."

    First you say it is likely, then you say it is. And you bold it!

    So, what's it going to be? You don't really know, right? 

    I limited myself to posting information as it was provided by Panasonic. You wanted 'data' (even though there really is none) so I gave you a statement from the company hoping that would satiate your hunger for 'data'.

    It could be a Sony part or a part sourced by someone else. All we have, is what Panasonic has actually said, as reported by the media.


    edited September 2018
  • Reply 36 of 49
    tmaytmay Posts: 3,982member
    avon b7 said:
    tmay said:
    avon b7 said:
    tmay said:
    avon b7 said:
    tmay said:
    avon b7 said:
    melgross said:
    avon b7 said:
    tmay said:
    avon b7 said:
    tmay said:
    avon b7 said:
    The big advantage for Panasonic (and Sony) is that they 'know' digital and everything associated with it (screens, viewfinders, video processors, software) far better than Canon or Nikon. They have far better logistical capacity (again, like Sony).

    I don't understand the boutique reference. This Panasonic system doesn't exist yet and any current boutique status for the mount will be lost quickly seeing as a system for the pro  markets without lenses is dead in the water. The same thing happened with m4/3. 

    Of course, Leica will also provide lenses for Panasonic without the Leica branding or certification (again, just like with m4/3).

    The cat will be amongst the pigeons as a major player with ample resources is entering a specialised and relatively small market and brings with it the kind of design agility that the likes of Canon and Nikon can only dream of. They will also back the product up with a new pro services network. Something that will be very easy to do given their existing networks. Sony and Panasonic know each other very well but in this case it is Sony that has something to lose.

    The biggest issue is the user and how to get him/her onboard but this announcement is largely a declaration of intentions and from the m4/3 (which will continue btw) experience, Panasonic won't just dip a toe into the water, it will carve out a space for itself. 




    https://www.sansmirror.com/newsviews/2018-mirrorless-camera/july-september-2018-mirrorl/the-fight-at-the-top.html

    "Too many folk believe that it is the product and technology that is the thing that wins a market war like we're about to have in mirrorless full frame. No, it's not. The thing that wins is having a customer focus. No customer, no sale, no matter what the technology. So it's how you engage and speak to that potential customer that's important. Sure, describing why your technology is better might be part of that, but you actually have to catch the customer's attention before you can get to that discussion."

    Sounds like like another company that we well know.
    Weird that that piece totally misses one major area for new growth: new users, with no entrenchment.

    The author seemingly failed to forecast the entry of Panasonic into this reduced market too.
    Read more, post less. Thom never stated anywhere that they wouldn't enter the full frame market, but now that they have, it's pretty easy to state that Panasonic is no disruption to either the Full Frame MILC or DSLR's from Canon or Nikon.

    I'll post the prior link, again;

    https://www.sansmirror.com/newsviews/2018-mirrorless-camera/july-september-2018-mirrorl/new-baby-elephant-enters.html

    If you think that there are a lot of new users to find in the market, you should post a link to back it up.

    Right now, Sony holds near 100% of the Full Frame MILC market, but that will drop rapidly as Canon and Nikon ship their first generation. Together, those three will have 90% of the market, and to Panasonic is many months away from delivery of their first models.

    If you don't agree with Thom, al least post some links stating how and why Panasonic is going to be taking marketshare from the three current players.

    Here's another quote;

    "How does the L mount stack up against the other mirrorless full frame mounts?
    • Canon RF — 20mm flange, 54mm throat
    • Consortium L — 20mm flange, 51.6mm throat
    • Nikon Z — 16mm flange, 55mm throat
    • Sony FE — 18mm flange, 46mm throat

    If you're to believe Canon's and Nikon's technical descriptions about how a bigger mount is better for future new optical designs, Nikon has the most flexible mount with Canon a bit behind that. The L-mount and the FE mount have some liabilities when it comes to ray-bending at the back"

    That he 'never said they wouldn't enter the market' is besides the point. No. He didn't even mention them!

    What a huge miss! He writes a piece on the 'fight at the top' in early September, when rumours were rife on this Panasonic move and didn't even make a passing reference to it. That failing undermined the whole piece.

    Then he writes another piece and calls them 'the baby elephants' in the room. Very clever! Simply because they have no current presence with this new proposal. It's actually more like a mammoth just entered the room. LOL. 

    "If you think that there are a lot of new users to find in the market, you should post a link to back it up"

    No need. The laws of nature. People leave the market retirement, death, career change etc and people enter the market.

    The point is, there is no entrenchment for those people. Not in knowhow, habits or equipment. In such a small market the actual change is more noticeable.

    From the other article:

    "Sigma has yet to produce a digital camera with convincing UI, focus, and low light performance."

    That is also wierd. Did he forget that although Sigma will be producing cameras for this mount, the real push will be to put lenses onto the market? 14 next year alone (mainly the same Sigmas currently available for Sony. Panasonic is in the opposite position. The real push is with the camera although it will also produce lenses.

    "Safety in numbers" 

    He says that for the, ehem 'little elephants', (protection for the 'dwarves' LOL), but then, when it suits him says:

    "Canikony" to claim "90% of the market"

    And promptly lumps Canon, Nikon and Sony into one group for no valid reason.

    Why not separate those numbers and try to imagine a fourth major player? Of course that player has 0% of the market because it has no phones available yet, but it is clear that Panasonic is NOT entering this market to be a niche player. Reason enough to take major notice.

    Saying the other three have 90% of the market make little sende unless stating the obvious is back in fashion.

    As for the mount, he says:

    "If you're to believe Canon's and Nikon's technical descriptions about how a bigger mount is better for future new optical designs, Nikon has the most flexible mount with Canon a bit behind that. The L-mount and the FE mount have some liabilities when it comes to ray-bending at the back."

    The obvious stance to that is what if you don't believe all that? Are we to imagine Panasonic does? 

    And then, how far can Canon and especially Nikon go if they lose even relatively few sales to Panasonic? Are they so healthy that they can trudge on for a long period unaffected or will alarm bells sound sooner rather than later.

    Looking at how well m4/3 turned out I am optimistic about this new project. 

    We'll see how it turns out but anyone claiming this is a failed project, or too high a mountain to climb, really doesn't understand what Panasonic has already pulled off in m4/3. Notably the GH series.



    Your understanding of the industry is abysmal.
    Well, you often claim people are wrong and mostly never support it with ANYTHING external to your own opinion so in this case we're on equal terms!
    My data supports his "opinion".

    Where's your data?

    For the record, I'm your so called"stalker" because you post massive amounts of misinformation that needs correction, constantly. Still, I'm surprised that you have attached your "brand" to Panasonic, as if they need your help.


    'Equal terms'  because, in this case, and for PANASONIC, in this area, there literally is NO DATA.

    They don't actually have a product on the market.

    It all boils down to opinion. 

    Of course, we can look elsewhere for supporting data and use that as the basis of an opinion. That is what I have done. 

    Let's take the EVF. After 10 years of enormous success with EVF, do you have any reason to believe that the EVF on the S Series will not be one of the best, if not the best on the market next year?

    Etc, etc
    You really don't have a clue; there are plenty of facts to work with.

    All of the current full frame cameras from Canon, Nikon, and Sony, use the Sony 3.69 million Dot EVF, or possibly the earlier 2.36 million Dot for some Sony models.

    The next generation will also have the option of the Sony 5.6 billon Dot EVF.

    So, Panasonic will likely choose, yet again, a Sony EVF. That's not news, but you are correct, it could be one of the best, but almost certainly won't be "the best", when it arrives.

    https://www.engadget.com/2018/05/29/sony-mirrorless-camera-evf/
    Specifically, on the EVF, what has Panasonic said publicly for this new model?

    You must know because it has been in just about every summary of the presentation over the last 24 hours.

    A clue:

    https://camerajabber.com/panasonic-lumix-s1r-review/

    "Panasonic has said that the resolution of the electronic viewfinder (EVF) will beat the competitionCanon, Sony and Nikon all have EVFs with 3,690,000 dots, so that’s promising news for the S1R"

    Now, feel free to speculate but that information came direct from the horse's mouth. That is not speculation on my part. Some 'facts to work with' as you might say. It is fact as presented by Panasonic. They have ten years of m4/3 experience working with some of the best EVFs on the market.

    In the case of Sony, and as I said earlier, they are up there with Panasonic on the EVFs, screens, software etc.
    It's a Sony next generation EVF.

    I fucking posted a link for that, but stated that Canon and Nikon will likely have it in their "Pro" models before Panasonic delivers it's two new models. 

    If Panasonic hurries up, they might hold the crown for EVF resolution for a short time, but ultimately, it won't make any difference. I'm guessing that they use a Sony full frame sensor as well. 
    First you say:

    "So, Panasonic will likely choose, yet again, a Sony EVF. That's not news, but you are correct, it could be one of the best, but almost certainly won't be "the best", when it arrives."

    Then you say:

    "It's a Sony next generation EVF."

    First you say it is likely, then you say it is. And you bold it!

    So, what's it going to be? You don't really know, right? 

    I limited myself to posting information as it was provided by Panasonic. You wanted 'data' (even though there really is none) so I gave you a statement from the company hoping that would satiate your hunger for 'data'.

    It could be a Sony part or a part sourced by someone else. All we have, is what Panasonic has actually said, as reported by the media.


    So, you didn't read the link I posted;

    https://www.engadget.com/2018/05/29/sony-mirrorless-camera-evf/

    You certainly didn't understand that since Panasonic has been sourcing Sony EVF's. they would likely pick the next generation 5.6 million Dot EVF, but depending on when they ship, Canon and/or Nikon might have it first in their rumored Pro model's;

    https://nikonrumors.com/2018/08/26/nikon-executive-on-whether-nikon-will-release-a-pro-model-like-the-d5-in-the-z-line-count-on-it.aspx/

    "Nikon is going to make great products both in DSLR and mirrorless. Nikon will keep releasing new products in DSLR.Nikon carefully examined from scratch and concluded that 55mm and 16mm are the best for an inner diameter and a flange focal distance, respectively, in terms of optical performance. That's why a new mount was born.In development, Nikon focused on reliability, robustness, and ruggedness which pros and enthusiasts appreciate. It ended up being the Z which is more like the DSLR in design.Regarding the EVF, quality was a top priority so that pros see it as good as an optical viewfinder.Nikon first decided the size of a new body which Nikon thinks users are happy to accept. Then, everything else was put into that body.Ikegami didn't mention clearly but said that the Z's rival is what you think it is.The Z's advantage is a high optical performance. The lens is designed for the highest image quality and its optical resolution surpasses that of DSLR's lens. He says that the Z is superior to the DSLR in both still and video photography.He expects users to see the Z to be equivalent to the D850 in image quality.On whether Nikon releases a pro model like the D5 in the Z line, he said: "Count on it!"He anticipates that the third party will reverse-engineer the Z lens."
    I'll reiterate;

    "
    On whether Nikon releases a pro model like the D5 in the Z line, he said: "Count on it!"
  • Reply 37 of 49
    melgrossmelgross Posts: 31,981member
    tmay said:

    davgreg said:
    Way back in the day Panasonic and Leica made a number of cameras jointly and I own a few. The Leica Digilux 2 was and still is a favorite. It has a permanently attached Leica lens setup in a body designed to handle like the film cameras instead of a computer with a lens. There was a Lumix version as well that differed in the way it processed the image, the Lumix images were more saturated.

    The lens was fast and has the Leica look. It is too bad that they never used that lens design with any other cameras as it was special.

    The Leica/Panasonic 4/3rds and Micro 4/3rds lenses are quite good- I own a number of them and they are worthy of the Leica name.

    Hopefully these will be great cameras, but be forewarned about the cost of Leica lenses.
    I noted that earlier about the Leica lenses; it's common knowledge that they are very good, and also, very expensive.
    A number of those Leica lenses have problems. Whether it’s that Leica isn’t what they used to be now that most of their sales go to well heeled individuals who want to hang the name on their neck, I don’t know. In general, they seem to be having odd problems with their sensors as well, or maybe it their digital ISP, or their software.

    my friend, Loyd Chambers, who has a photo site, Diglloyd.com tests numerous cameras under “real” conditions, by actually taking photos, has found numerous problems with Leica products the past couple of years. Leica admits the problems once he’s found them,  it takes months to come up with solutions.
    edited September 2018
  • Reply 38 of 49
    melgrossmelgross Posts: 31,981member

    tmay said:
    avon b7 said:
    tmay said:
    avon b7 said:
    tmay said:
    avon b7 said:
    tmay said:
    avon b7 said:
    melgross said:
    avon b7 said:
    tmay said:
    avon b7 said:
    tmay said:
    avon b7 said:
    The big advantage for Panasonic (and Sony) is that they 'know' digital and everything associated with it (screens, viewfinders, video processors, software) far better than Canon or Nikon. They have far better logistical capacity (again, like Sony).

    I don't understand the boutique reference. This Panasonic system doesn't exist yet and any current boutique status for the mount will be lost quickly seeing as a system for the pro  markets without lenses is dead in the water. The same thing happened with m4/3. 

    Of course, Leica will also provide lenses for Panasonic without the Leica branding or certification (again, just like with m4/3).

    The cat will be amongst the pigeons as a major player with ample resources is entering a specialised and relatively small market and brings with it the kind of design agility that the likes of Canon and Nikon can only dream of. They will also back the product up with a new pro services network. Something that will be very easy to do given their existing networks. Sony and Panasonic know each other very well but in this case it is Sony that has something to lose.

    The biggest issue is the user and how to get him/her onboard but this announcement is largely a declaration of intentions and from the m4/3 (which will continue btw) experience, Panasonic won't just dip a toe into the water, it will carve out a space for itself. 




    https://www.sansmirror.com/newsviews/2018-mirrorless-camera/july-september-2018-mirrorl/the-fight-at-the-top.html

    "Too many folk believe that it is the product and technology that is the thing that wins a market war like we're about to have in mirrorless full frame. No, it's not. The thing that wins is having a customer focus. No customer, no sale, no matter what the technology. So it's how you engage and speak to that potential customer that's important. Sure, describing why your technology is better might be part of that, but you actually have to catch the customer's attention before you can get to that discussion."

    Sounds like like another company that we well know.
    Weird that that piece totally misses one major area for new growth: new users, with no entrenchment.

    The author seemingly failed to forecast the entry of Panasonic into this reduced market too.
    Read more, post less. Thom never stated anywhere that they wouldn't enter the full frame market, but now that they have, it's pretty easy to state that Panasonic is no disruption to either the Full Frame MILC or DSLR's from Canon or Nikon.

    I'll post the prior link, again;

    https://www.sansmirror.com/newsviews/2018-mirrorless-camera/july-september-2018-mirrorl/new-baby-elephant-enters.html

    If you think that there are a lot of new users to find in the market, you should post a link to back it up.

    Right now, Sony holds near 100% of the Full Frame MILC market, but that will drop rapidly as Canon and Nikon ship their first generation. Together, those three will have 90% of the market, and to Panasonic is many months away from delivery of their first models.

    If you don't agree with Thom, al least post some links stating how and why Panasonic is going to be taking marketshare from the three current players.

    Here's another quote;

    "How does the L mount stack up against the other mirrorless full frame mounts?
    • Canon RF — 20mm flange, 54mm throat
    • Consortium L — 20mm flange, 51.6mm throat
    • Nikon Z — 16mm flange, 55mm throat
    • Sony FE — 18mm flange, 46mm throat

    If you're to believe Canon's and Nikon's technical descriptions about how a bigger mount is better for future new optical designs, Nikon has the most flexible mount with Canon a bit behind that. The L-mount and the FE mount have some liabilities when it comes to ray-bending at the back"

    That he 'never said they wouldn't enter the market' is besides the point. No. He didn't even mention them!

    What a huge miss! He writes a piece on the 'fight at the top' in early September, when rumours were rife on this Panasonic move and didn't even make a passing reference to it. That failing undermined the whole piece.

    Then he writes another piece and calls them 'the baby elephants' in the room. Very clever! Simply because they have no current presence with this new proposal. It's actually more like a mammoth just entered the room. LOL. 

    "If you think that there are a lot of new users to find in the market, you should post a link to back it up"

    No need. The laws of nature. People leave the market retirement, death, career change etc and people enter the market.

    The point is, there is no entrenchment for those people. Not in knowhow, habits or equipment. In such a small market the actual change is more noticeable.

    From the other article:

    "Sigma has yet to produce a digital camera with convincing UI, focus, and low light performance."

    That is also wierd. Did he forget that although Sigma will be producing cameras for this mount, the real push will be to put lenses onto the market? 14 next year alone (mainly the same Sigmas currently available for Sony. Panasonic is in the opposite position. The real push is with the camera although it will also produce lenses.

    "Safety in numbers" 

    He says that for the, ehem 'little elephants', (protection for the 'dwarves' LOL), but then, when it suits him says:

    "Canikony" to claim "90% of the market"

    And promptly lumps Canon, Nikon and Sony into one group for no valid reason.

    Why not separate those numbers and try to imagine a fourth major player? Of course that player has 0% of the market because it has no phones available yet, but it is clear that Panasonic is NOT entering this market to be a niche player. Reason enough to take major notice.

    Saying the other three have 90% of the market make little sende unless stating the obvious is back in fashion.

    As for the mount, he says:

    "If you're to believe Canon's and Nikon's technical descriptions about how a bigger mount is better for future new optical designs, Nikon has the most flexible mount with Canon a bit behind that. The L-mount and the FE mount have some liabilities when it comes to ray-bending at the back."

    The obvious stance to that is what if you don't believe all that? Are we to imagine Panasonic does? 

    And then, how far can Canon and especially Nikon go if they lose even relatively few sales to Panasonic? Are they so healthy that they can trudge on for a long period unaffected or will alarm bells sound sooner rather than later.

    Looking at how well m4/3 turned out I am optimistic about this new project. 

    We'll see how it turns out but anyone claiming this is a failed project, or too high a mountain to climb, really doesn't understand what Panasonic has already pulled off in m4/3. Notably the GH series.



    Your understanding of the industry is abysmal.
    Well, you often claim people are wrong and mostly never support it with ANYTHING external to your own opinion so in this case we're on equal terms!
    My data supports his "opinion".

    Where's your data?

    For the record, I'm your so called"stalker" because you post massive amounts of misinformation that needs correction, constantly. Still, I'm surprised that you have attached your "brand" to Panasonic, as if they need your help.


    'Equal terms'  because, in this case, and for PANASONIC, in this area, there literally is NO DATA.

    They don't actually have a product on the market.

    It all boils down to opinion. 

    Of course, we can look elsewhere for supporting data and use that as the basis of an opinion. That is what I have done. 

    Let's take the EVF. After 10 years of enormous success with EVF, do you have any reason to believe that the EVF on the S Series will not be one of the best, if not the best on the market next year?

    Etc, etc
    You really don't have a clue; there are plenty of facts to work with.

    All of the current full frame cameras from Canon, Nikon, and Sony, use the Sony 3.69 million Dot EVF, or possibly the earlier 2.36 million Dot for some Sony models.

    The next generation will also have the option of the Sony 5.6 billon Dot EVF.

    So, Panasonic will likely choose, yet again, a Sony EVF. That's not news, but you are correct, it could be one of the best, but almost certainly won't be "the best", when it arrives.

    https://www.engadget.com/2018/05/29/sony-mirrorless-camera-evf/
    Specifically, on the EVF, what has Panasonic said publicly for this new model?

    You must know because it has been in just about every summary of the presentation over the last 24 hours.

    A clue:

    https://camerajabber.com/panasonic-lumix-s1r-review/

    "Panasonic has said that the resolution of the electronic viewfinder (EVF) will beat the competitionCanon, Sony and Nikon all have EVFs with 3,690,000 dots, so that’s promising news for the S1R"

    Now, feel free to speculate but that information came direct from the horse's mouth. That is not speculation on my part. Some 'facts to work with' as you might say. It is fact as presented by Panasonic. They have ten years of m4/3 experience working with some of the best EVFs on the market.

    In the case of Sony, and as I said earlier, they are up there with Panasonic on the EVFs, screens, software etc.
    It's a Sony next generation EVF.

    I fucking posted a link for that, but stated that Canon and Nikon will likely have it in their "Pro" models before Panasonic delivers it's two new models. 

    If Panasonic hurries up, they might hold the crown for EVF resolution for a short time, but ultimately, it won't make any difference. I'm guessing that they use a Sony full frame sensor as well. 
    First you say:

    "So, Panasonic will likely choose, yet again, a Sony EVF. That's not news, but you are correct, it could be one of the best, but almost certainly won't be "the best", when it arrives."

    Then you say:

    "It's a Sony next generation EVF."

    First you say it is likely, then you say it is. And you bold it!

    So, what's it going to be? You don't really know, right? 

    I limited myself to posting information as it was provided by Panasonic. You wanted 'data' (even though there really is none) so I gave you a statement from the company hoping that would satiate your hunger for 'data'.

    It could be a Sony part or a part sourced by someone else. All we have, is what Panasonic has actually said, as reported by the media.


    So, you didn't read the link I posted;

    https://www.engadget.com/2018/05/29/sony-mirrorless-camera-evf/

    You certainly didn't understand that since Panasonic has been sourcing Sony EVF's. they would likely pick the next generation 5.6 million Dot EVF, but depending on when they ship, Canon and/or Nikon might have it first in their rumored Pro model's;

    https://nikonrumors.com/2018/08/26/nikon-executive-on-whether-nikon-will-release-a-pro-model-like-the-d5-in-the-z-line-count-on-it.aspx/

    "Nikon is going to make great products both in DSLR and mirrorless. Nikon will keep releasing new products in DSLR.Nikon carefully examined from scratch and concluded that 55mm and 16mm are the best for an inner diameter and a flange focal distance, respectively, in terms of optical performance. That's why a new mount was born.In development, Nikon focused on reliability, robustness, and ruggedness which pros and enthusiasts appreciate. It ended up being the Z which is more like the DSLR in design.Regarding the EVF, quality was a top priority so that pros see it as good as an optical viewfinder.Nikon first decided the size of a new body which Nikon thinks users are happy to accept. Then, everything else was put into that body.Ikegami didn't mention clearly but said that the Z's rival is what you think it is.The Z's advantage is a high optical performance. The lens is designed for the highest image quality and its optical resolution surpasses that of DSLR's lens. He says that the Z is superior to the DSLR in both still and video photography.He expects users to see the Z to be equivalent to the D850 in image quality.On whether Nikon releases a pro model like the D5 in the Z line, he said: "Count on it!"He anticipates that the third party will reverse-engineer the Z lens."
    I'll reiterate;

    "On whether Nikon releases a pro model like the D5 in the Z line, he said: "Count on it!"
    Canon has also stated this. But they’ve also stated that until their EVF is good enough, they won’t. To replace a flagship pro model with anything less that what the optical finder can do will be suicide, and they, and Nikon know it. Neither company can screw this up, as the two own the pro market. Any misstep could jeopardize that, and they won’t let it happen.
    edited September 2018
  • Reply 39 of 49
    tmaytmay Posts: 3,982member
    melgross said:
    tmay said:

    davgreg said:
    Way back in the day Panasonic and Leica made a number of cameras jointly and I own a few. The Leica Digilux 2 was and still is a favorite. It has a permanently attached Leica lens setup in a body designed to handle like the film cameras instead of a computer with a lens. There was a Lumix version as well that differed in the way it processed the image, the Lumix images were more saturated.

    The lens was fast and has the Leica look. It is too bad that they never used that lens design with any other cameras as it was special.

    The Leica/Panasonic 4/3rds and Micro 4/3rds lenses are quite good- I own a number of them and they are worthy of the Leica name.

    Hopefully these will be great cameras, but be forewarned about the cost of Leica lenses.
    I noted that earlier about the Leica lenses; it's common knowledge that they are very good, and also, very expensive.
    A number of those Leica lenses have problems. Whether it’s that Leica isn’t what they used to be now that most of their sales go to well heeled individuals who want to hang the name on their neck, I don’t know. In general, they seem to be having odd problems with their sensors as well, or maybe it their digital ISP, or their software.

    my friend, Loyd Chambers, who has a photo site, Diglloyd.com tests numerous cameras under “real” conditions, by actually taking photos, has found numerous problems with Leica products the past couple of years. Leica admits the problems once he’s found them,  it takes months to come up with solutions.
    That's very sad to hear, but Leica lens are out of my price range anyway.

    melgross said:

    tmay said:
    avon b7 said:
    tmay said:
    avon b7 said:
    tmay said:
    avon b7 said:
    tmay said:
    avon b7 said:
    melgross said:
    avon b7 said:
    tmay said:
    avon b7 said:
    tmay said:
    avon b7 said:
    The big advantage for Panasonic (and Sony) is that they 'know' digital and everything associated with it (screens, viewfinders, video processors, software) far better than Canon or Nikon. They have far better logistical capacity (again, like Sony).

    I don't understand the boutique reference. This Panasonic system doesn't exist yet and any current boutique status for the mount will be lost quickly seeing as a system for the pro  markets without lenses is dead in the water. The same thing happened with m4/3. 

    Of course, Leica will also provide lenses for Panasonic without the Leica branding or certification (again, just like with m4/3).

    The cat will be amongst the pigeons as a major player with ample resources is entering a specialised and relatively small market and brings with it the kind of design agility that the likes of Canon and Nikon can only dream of. They will also back the product up with a new pro services network. Something that will be very easy to do given their existing networks. Sony and Panasonic know each other very well but in this case it is Sony that has something to lose.

    The biggest issue is the user and how to get him/her onboard but this announcement is largely a declaration of intentions and from the m4/3 (which will continue btw) experience, Panasonic won't just dip a toe into the water, it will carve out a space for itself. 




    https://www.sansmirror.com/newsviews/2018-mirrorless-camera/july-september-2018-mirrorl/the-fight-at-the-top.html

    "Too many folk believe that it is the product and technology that is the thing that wins a market war like we're about to have in mirrorless full frame. No, it's not. The thing that wins is having a customer focus. No customer, no sale, no matter what the technology. So it's how you engage and speak to that potential customer that's important. Sure, describing why your technology is better might be part of that, but you actually have to catch the customer's attention before you can get to that discussion."

    Sounds like like another company that we well know.
    Weird that that piece totally misses one major area for new growth: new users, with no entrenchment.

    The author seemingly failed to forecast the entry of Panasonic into this reduced market too.
    Read more, post less. Thom never stated anywhere that they wouldn't enter the full frame market, but now that they have, it's pretty easy to state that Panasonic is no disruption to either the Full Frame MILC or DSLR's from Canon or Nikon.

    I'll post the prior link, again;

    https://www.sansmirror.com/newsviews/2018-mirrorless-camera/july-september-2018-mirrorl/new-baby-elephant-enters.html

    If you think that there are a lot of new users to find in the market, you should post a link to back it up.

    Right now, Sony holds near 100% of the Full Frame MILC market, but that will drop rapidly as Canon and Nikon ship their first generation. Together, those three will have 90% of the market, and to Panasonic is many months away from delivery of their first models.

    If you don't agree with Thom, al least post some links stating how and why Panasonic is going to be taking marketshare from the three current players.

    Here's another quote;

    "How does the L mount stack up against the other mirrorless full frame mounts?
    • Canon RF — 20mm flange, 54mm throat
    • Consortium L — 20mm flange, 51.6mm throat
    • Nikon Z — 16mm flange, 55mm throat
    • Sony FE — 18mm flange, 46mm throat

    If you're to believe Canon's and Nikon's technical descriptions about how a bigger mount is better for future new optical designs, Nikon has the most flexible mount with Canon a bit behind that. The L-mount and the FE mount have some liabilities when it comes to ray-bending at the back"

    That he 'never said they wouldn't enter the market' is besides the point. No. He didn't even mention them!

    What a huge miss! He writes a piece on the 'fight at the top' in early September, when rumours were rife on this Panasonic move and didn't even make a passing reference to it. That failing undermined the whole piece.

    Then he writes another piece and calls them 'the baby elephants' in the room. Very clever! Simply because they have no current presence with this new proposal. It's actually more like a mammoth just entered the room. LOL. 

    "If you think that there are a lot of new users to find in the market, you should post a link to back it up"

    No need. The laws of nature. People leave the market retirement, death, career change etc and people enter the market.

    The point is, there is no entrenchment for those people. Not in knowhow, habits or equipment. In such a small market the actual change is more noticeable.

    From the other article:

    "Sigma has yet to produce a digital camera with convincing UI, focus, and low light performance."

    That is also wierd. Did he forget that although Sigma will be producing cameras for this mount, the real push will be to put lenses onto the market? 14 next year alone (mainly the same Sigmas currently available for Sony. Panasonic is in the opposite position. The real push is with the camera although it will also produce lenses.

    "Safety in numbers" 

    He says that for the, ehem 'little elephants', (protection for the 'dwarves' LOL), but then, when it suits him says:

    "Canikony" to claim "90% of the market"

    And promptly lumps Canon, Nikon and Sony into one group for no valid reason.

    Why not separate those numbers and try to imagine a fourth major player? Of course that player has 0% of the market because it has no phones available yet, but it is clear that Panasonic is NOT entering this market to be a niche player. Reason enough to take major notice.

    Saying the other three have 90% of the market make little sende unless stating the obvious is back in fashion.

    As for the mount, he says:

    "If you're to believe Canon's and Nikon's technical descriptions about how a bigger mount is better for future new optical designs, Nikon has the most flexible mount with Canon a bit behind that. The L-mount and the FE mount have some liabilities when it comes to ray-bending at the back."

    The obvious stance to that is what if you don't believe all that? Are we to imagine Panasonic does? 

    And then, how far can Canon and especially Nikon go if they lose even relatively few sales to Panasonic? Are they so healthy that they can trudge on for a long period unaffected or will alarm bells sound sooner rather than later.

    Looking at how well m4/3 turned out I am optimistic about this new project. 

    We'll see how it turns out but anyone claiming this is a failed project, or too high a mountain to climb, really doesn't understand what Panasonic has already pulled off in m4/3. Notably the GH series.



    Your understanding of the industry is abysmal.
    Well, you often claim people are wrong and mostly never support it with ANYTHING external to your own opinion so in this case we're on equal terms!
    My data supports his "opinion".

    Where's your data?

    For the record, I'm your so called"stalker" because you post massive amounts of misinformation that needs correction, constantly. Still, I'm surprised that you have attached your "brand" to Panasonic, as if they need your help.


    'Equal terms'  because, in this case, and for PANASONIC, in this area, there literally is NO DATA.

    They don't actually have a product on the market.

    It all boils down to opinion. 

    Of course, we can look elsewhere for supporting data and use that as the basis of an opinion. That is what I have done. 

    Let's take the EVF. After 10 years of enormous success with EVF, do you have any reason to believe that the EVF on the S Series will not be one of the best, if not the best on the market next year?

    Etc, etc
    You really don't have a clue; there are plenty of facts to work with.

    All of the current full frame cameras from Canon, Nikon, and Sony, use the Sony 3.69 million Dot EVF, or possibly the earlier 2.36 million Dot for some Sony models.

    The next generation will also have the option of the Sony 5.6 billon Dot EVF.

    So, Panasonic will likely choose, yet again, a Sony EVF. That's not news, but you are correct, it could be one of the best, but almost certainly won't be "the best", when it arrives.

    https://www.engadget.com/2018/05/29/sony-mirrorless-camera-evf/
    Specifically, on the EVF, what has Panasonic said publicly for this new model?

    You must know because it has been in just about every summary of the presentation over the last 24 hours.

    A clue:

    https://camerajabber.com/panasonic-lumix-s1r-review/

    "Panasonic has said that the resolution of the electronic viewfinder (EVF) will beat the competitionCanon, Sony and Nikon all have EVFs with 3,690,000 dots, so that’s promising news for the S1R"

    Now, feel free to speculate but that information came direct from the horse's mouth. That is not speculation on my part. Some 'facts to work with' as you might say. It is fact as presented by Panasonic. They have ten years of m4/3 experience working with some of the best EVFs on the market.

    In the case of Sony, and as I said earlier, they are up there with Panasonic on the EVFs, screens, software etc.
    It's a Sony next generation EVF.

    I fucking posted a link for that, but stated that Canon and Nikon will likely have it in their "Pro" models before Panasonic delivers it's two new models. 

    If Panasonic hurries up, they might hold the crown for EVF resolution for a short time, but ultimately, it won't make any difference. I'm guessing that they use a Sony full frame sensor as well. 
    First you say:

    "So, Panasonic will likely choose, yet again, a Sony EVF. That's not news, but you are correct, it could be one of the best, but almost certainly won't be "the best", when it arrives."

    Then you say:

    "It's a Sony next generation EVF."

    First you say it is likely, then you say it is. And you bold it!

    So, what's it going to be? You don't really know, right? 

    I limited myself to posting information as it was provided by Panasonic. You wanted 'data' (even though there really is none) so I gave you a statement from the company hoping that would satiate your hunger for 'data'.

    It could be a Sony part or a part sourced by someone else. All we have, is what Panasonic has actually said, as reported by the media.


    So, you didn't read the link I posted;

    https://www.engadget.com/2018/05/29/sony-mirrorless-camera-evf/

    You certainly didn't understand that since Panasonic has been sourcing Sony EVF's. they would likely pick the next generation 5.6 million Dot EVF, but depending on when they ship, Canon and/or Nikon might have it first in their rumored Pro model's;

    https://nikonrumors.com/2018/08/26/nikon-executive-on-whether-nikon-will-release-a-pro-model-like-the-d5-in-the-z-line-count-on-it.aspx/

    "Nikon is going to make great products both in DSLR and mirrorless. Nikon will keep releasing new products in DSLR.Nikon carefully examined from scratch and concluded that 55mm and 16mm are the best for an inner diameter and a flange focal distance, respectively, in terms of optical performance. That's why a new mount was born.In development, Nikon focused on reliability, robustness, and ruggedness which pros and enthusiasts appreciate. It ended up being the Z which is more like the DSLR in design.Regarding the EVF, quality was a top priority so that pros see it as good as an optical viewfinder.Nikon first decided the size of a new body which Nikon thinks users are happy to accept. Then, everything else was put into that body.Ikegami didn't mention clearly but said that the Z's rival is what you think it is.The Z's advantage is a high optical performance. The lens is designed for the highest image quality and its optical resolution surpasses that of DSLR's lens. He says that the Z is superior to the DSLR in both still and video photography.He expects users to see the Z to be equivalent to the D850 in image quality.On whether Nikon releases a pro model like the D5 in the Z line, he said: "Count on it!"He anticipates that the third party will reverse-engineer the Z lens."
    I'll reiterate;

    "On whether Nikon releases a pro model like the D5 in the Z line, he said: "Count on it!"
    Canon has also stated this. But they’ve also stated that until their EVF is good enough, they won’t. To replace a flagship pro model with anything less that what the optical finder can do will be suicide, and they, and Nikon know it. Neither company can screw this up, as the two own the pro market. Any misstep could jeopardize that, and they won’t let it happen.
    I wasn't sure if the next generation Sony 5.6 million dot EVF would be "good enough", I think that it needs to be 10-12 bit HDR as well, and I agree that neither company would jeopardize their brands in a rush to market, especially when that rush isn't required. 

    Sony's part number is ECX339A: it is 1600 x 1200 resolution RGB.


    I'm pretty much done jousting with Avon B7, so he can go tilt at windmills, for all I care.
    edited September 2018
  • Reply 40 of 49
    avon b7avon b7 Posts: 4,298member
    tmay said:
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    The big advantage for Panasonic (and Sony) is that they 'know' digital and everything associated with it (screens, viewfinders, video processors, software) far better than Canon or Nikon. They have far better logistical capacity (again, like Sony).

    I don't understand the boutique reference. This Panasonic system doesn't exist yet and any current boutique status for the mount will be lost quickly seeing as a system for the pro  markets without lenses is dead in the water. The same thing happened with m4/3. 

    Of course, Leica will also provide lenses for Panasonic without the Leica branding or certification (again, just like with m4/3).

    The cat will be amongst the pigeons as a major player with ample resources is entering a specialised and relatively small market and brings with it the kind of design agility that the likes of Canon and Nikon can only dream of. They will also back the product up with a new pro services network. Something that will be very easy to do given their existing networks. Sony and Panasonic know each other very well but in this case it is Sony that has something to lose.

    The biggest issue is the user and how to get him/her onboard but this announcement is largely a declaration of intentions and from the m4/3 (which will continue btw) experience, Panasonic won't just dip a toe into the water, it will carve out a space for itself. 




    https://www.sansmirror.com/newsviews/2018-mirrorless-camera/july-september-2018-mirrorl/the-fight-at-the-top.html

    "Too many folk believe that it is the product and technology that is the thing that wins a market war like we're about to have in mirrorless full frame. No, it's not. The thing that wins is having a customer focus. No customer, no sale, no matter what the technology. So it's how you engage and speak to that potential customer that's important. Sure, describing why your technology is better might be part of that, but you actually have to catch the customer's attention before you can get to that discussion."

    Sounds like like another company that we well know.
    Weird that that piece totally misses one major area for new growth: new users, with no entrenchment.

    The author seemingly failed to forecast the entry of Panasonic into this reduced market too.
    Read more, post less. Thom never stated anywhere that they wouldn't enter the full frame market, but now that they have, it's pretty easy to state that Panasonic is no disruption to either the Full Frame MILC or DSLR's from Canon or Nikon.

    I'll post the prior link, again;

    https://www.sansmirror.com/newsviews/2018-mirrorless-camera/july-september-2018-mirrorl/new-baby-elephant-enters.html

    If you think that there are a lot of new users to find in the market, you should post a link to back it up.

    Right now, Sony holds near 100% of the Full Frame MILC market, but that will drop rapidly as Canon and Nikon ship their first generation. Together, those three will have 90% of the market, and to Panasonic is many months away from delivery of their first models.

    If you don't agree with Thom, al least post some links stating how and why Panasonic is going to be taking marketshare from the three current players.

    Here's another quote;

    "How does the L mount stack up against the other mirrorless full frame mounts?
    • Canon RF — 20mm flange, 54mm throat
    • Consortium L — 20mm flange, 51.6mm throat
    • Nikon Z — 16mm flange, 55mm throat
    • Sony FE — 18mm flange, 46mm throat

    If you're to believe Canon's and Nikon's technical descriptions about how a bigger mount is better for future new optical designs, Nikon has the most flexible mount with Canon a bit behind that. The L-mount and the FE mount have some liabilities when it comes to ray-bending at the back"

    That he 'never said they wouldn't enter the market' is besides the point. No. He didn't even mention them!

    What a huge miss! He writes a piece on the 'fight at the top' in early September, when rumours were rife on this Panasonic move and didn't even make a passing reference to it. That failing undermined the whole piece.

    Then he writes another piece and calls them 'the baby elephants' in the room. Very clever! Simply because they have no current presence with this new proposal. It's actually more like a mammoth just entered the room. LOL. 

    "If you think that there are a lot of new users to find in the market, you should post a link to back it up"

    No need. The laws of nature. People leave the market retirement, death, career change etc and people enter the market.

    The point is, there is no entrenchment for those people. Not in knowhow, habits or equipment. In such a small market the actual change is more noticeable.

    From the other article:

    "Sigma has yet to produce a digital camera with convincing UI, focus, and low light performance."

    That is also wierd. Did he forget that although Sigma will be producing cameras for this mount, the real push will be to put lenses onto the market? 14 next year alone (mainly the same Sigmas currently available for Sony. Panasonic is in the opposite position. The real push is with the camera although it will also produce lenses.

    "Safety in numbers" 

    He says that for the, ehem 'little elephants', (protection for the 'dwarves' LOL), but then, when it suits him says:

    "Canikony" to claim "90% of the market"

    And promptly lumps Canon, Nikon and Sony into one group for no valid reason.

    Why not separate those numbers and try to imagine a fourth major player? Of course that player has 0% of the market because it has no phones available yet, but it is clear that Panasonic is NOT entering this market to be a niche player. Reason enough to take major notice.

    Saying the other three have 90% of the market make little sende unless stating the obvious is back in fashion.

    As for the mount, he says:

    "If you're to believe Canon's and Nikon's technical descriptions about how a bigger mount is better for future new optical designs, Nikon has the most flexible mount with Canon a bit behind that. The L-mount and the FE mount have some liabilities when it comes to ray-bending at the back."

    The obvious stance to that is what if you don't believe all that? Are we to imagine Panasonic does? 

    And then, how far can Canon and especially Nikon go if they lose even relatively few sales to Panasonic? Are they so healthy that they can trudge on for a long period unaffected or will alarm bells sound sooner rather than later.

    Looking at how well m4/3 turned out I am optimistic about this new project. 

    We'll see how it turns out but anyone claiming this is a failed project, or too high a mountain to climb, really doesn't understand what Panasonic has already pulled off in m4/3. Notably the GH series.



    Your understanding of the industry is abysmal.
    Well, you often claim people are wrong and mostly never support it with ANYTHING external to your own opinion so in this case we're on equal terms!
    My data supports his "opinion".

    Where's your data?

    For the record, I'm your so called"stalker" because you post massive amounts of misinformation that needs correction, constantly. Still, I'm surprised that you have attached your "brand" to Panasonic, as if they need your help.


    'Equal terms'  because, in this case, and for PANASONIC, in this area, there literally is NO DATA.

    They don't actually have a product on the market.

    It all boils down to opinion. 

    Of course, we can look elsewhere for supporting data and use that as the basis of an opinion. That is what I have done. 

    Let's take the EVF. After 10 years of enormous success with EVF, do you have any reason to believe that the EVF on the S Series will not be one of the best, if not the best on the market next year?

    Etc, etc
    You really don't have a clue; there are plenty of facts to work with.

    All of the current full frame cameras from Canon, Nikon, and Sony, use the Sony 3.69 million Dot EVF, or possibly the earlier 2.36 million Dot for some Sony models.

    The next generation will also have the option of the Sony 5.6 billon Dot EVF.

    So, Panasonic will likely choose, yet again, a Sony EVF. That's not news, but you are correct, it could be one of the best, but almost certainly won't be "the best", when it arrives.

    https://www.engadget.com/2018/05/29/sony-mirrorless-camera-evf/
    Specifically, on the EVF, what has Panasonic said publicly for this new model?

    You must know because it has been in just about every summary of the presentation over the last 24 hours.

    A clue:

    https://camerajabber.com/panasonic-lumix-s1r-review/

    "Panasonic has said that the resolution of the electronic viewfinder (EVF) will beat the competitionCanon, Sony and Nikon all have EVFs with 3,690,000 dots, so that’s promising news for the S1R"

    Now, feel free to speculate but that information came direct from the horse's mouth. That is not speculation on my part. Some 'facts to work with' as you might say. It is fact as presented by Panasonic. They have ten years of m4/3 experience working with some of the best EVFs on the market.

    In the case of Sony, and as I said earlier, they are up there with Panasonic on the EVFs, screens, software etc.
    It's a Sony next generation EVF.

    I fucking posted a link for that, but stated that Canon and Nikon will likely have it in their "Pro" models before Panasonic delivers it's two new models. 

    If Panasonic hurries up, they might hold the crown for EVF resolution for a short time, but ultimately, it won't make any difference. I'm guessing that they use a Sony full frame sensor as well. 
    First you say:

    "So, Panasonic will likely choose, yet again, a Sony EVF. That's not news, but you are correct, it could be one of the best, but almost certainly won't be "the best", when it arrives."

    Then you say:

    "It's a Sony next generation EVF."

    First you say it is likely, then you say it is. And you bold it!

    So, what's it going to be? You don't really know, right? 

    I limited myself to posting information as it was provided by Panasonic. You wanted 'data' (even though there really is none) so I gave you a statement from the company hoping that would satiate your hunger for 'data'.

    It could be a Sony part or a part sourced by someone else. All we have, is what Panasonic has actually said, as reported by the media.


    So, you didn't read the link I posted;

    https://www.engadget.com/2018/05/29/sony-mirrorless-camera-evf/

    You certainly didn't understand that since Panasonic has been sourcing Sony EVF's. they would likely pick the next generation 5.6 million Dot EVF, but depending on when they ship, Canon and/or Nikon might have it first in their rumored Pro model's;

    https://nikonrumors.com/2018/08/26/nikon-executive-on-whether-nikon-will-release-a-pro-model-like-the-d5-in-the-z-line-count-on-it.aspx/

    "Nikon is going to make great products both in DSLR and mirrorless. Nikon will keep releasing new products in DSLR.Nikon carefully examined from scratch and concluded that 55mm and 16mm are the best for an inner diameter and a flange focal distance, respectively, in terms of optical performance. That's why a new mount was born.In development, Nikon focused on reliability, robustness, and ruggedness which pros and enthusiasts appreciate. It ended up being the Z which is more like the DSLR in design.Regarding the EVF, quality was a top priority so that pros see it as good as an optical viewfinder.Nikon first decided the size of a new body which Nikon thinks users are happy to accept. Then, everything else was put into that body.Ikegami didn't mention clearly but said that the Z's rival is what you think it is.The Z's advantage is a high optical performance. The lens is designed for the highest image quality and its optical resolution surpasses that of DSLR's lens. He says that the Z is superior to the DSLR in both still and video photography.He expects users to see the Z to be equivalent to the D850 in image quality.On whether Nikon releases a pro model like the D5 in the Z line, he said: "Count on it!"He anticipates that the third party will reverse-engineer the Z lens."
    I'll reiterate;

    "On whether Nikon releases a pro model like the D5 in the Z line, he said: "Count on it!"
    None of that has anything to do with my post.

    Do you know or not!? No. Of course you don't.

    That is why you have swung back to 'might'.

    Panasonic has also used Epson EVFs in the past and there were even rumours earlier this year about about a Panasonic designed EVF for precisely Leica so, as I said, speculation is fine but beyond that, and on this subject - the S1 - series, all we have is what Panasonic actually said.


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