Panasonic announces new line of Lumix S full-frame mirrorless cameras for 2019

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Comments

  • Reply 41 of 49
    avon b7avon b7 Posts: 4,302member
    melgross said:

    avon b7 said:
    tmay said:
    avon b7 said:
    melgross said:
    avon b7 said:
    tmay said:
    avon b7 said:
    tmay said:
    avon b7 said:
    The big advantage for Panasonic (and Sony) is that they 'know' digital and everything associated with it (screens, viewfinders, video processors, software) far better than Canon or Nikon. They have far better logistical capacity (again, like Sony).

    I don't understand the boutique reference. This Panasonic system doesn't exist yet and any current boutique status for the mount will be lost quickly seeing as a system for the pro  markets without lenses is dead in the water. The same thing happened with m4/3. 

    Of course, Leica will also provide lenses for Panasonic without the Leica branding or certification (again, just like with m4/3).

    The cat will be amongst the pigeons as a major player with ample resources is entering a specialised and relatively small market and brings with it the kind of design agility that the likes of Canon and Nikon can only dream of. They will also back the product up with a new pro services network. Something that will be very easy to do given their existing networks. Sony and Panasonic know each other very well but in this case it is Sony that has something to lose.

    The biggest issue is the user and how to get him/her onboard but this announcement is largely a declaration of intentions and from the m4/3 (which will continue btw) experience, Panasonic won't just dip a toe into the water, it will carve out a space for itself. 




    https://www.sansmirror.com/newsviews/2018-mirrorless-camera/july-september-2018-mirrorl/the-fight-at-the-top.html

    "Too many folk believe that it is the product and technology that is the thing that wins a market war like we're about to have in mirrorless full frame. No, it's not. The thing that wins is having a customer focus. No customer, no sale, no matter what the technology. So it's how you engage and speak to that potential customer that's important. Sure, describing why your technology is better might be part of that, but you actually have to catch the customer's attention before you can get to that discussion."

    Sounds like like another company that we well know.
    Weird that that piece totally misses one major area for new growth: new users, with no entrenchment.

    The author seemingly failed to forecast the entry of Panasonic into this reduced market too.
    Read more, post less. Thom never stated anywhere that they wouldn't enter the full frame market, but now that they have, it's pretty easy to state that Panasonic is no disruption to either the Full Frame MILC or DSLR's from Canon or Nikon.

    I'll post the prior link, again;

    https://www.sansmirror.com/newsviews/2018-mirrorless-camera/july-september-2018-mirrorl/new-baby-elephant-enters.html

    If you think that there are a lot of new users to find in the market, you should post a link to back it up.

    Right now, Sony holds near 100% of the Full Frame MILC market, but that will drop rapidly as Canon and Nikon ship their first generation. Together, those three will have 90% of the market, and to Panasonic is many months away from delivery of their first models.

    If you don't agree with Thom, al least post some links stating how and why Panasonic is going to be taking marketshare from the three current players.

    Here's another quote;

    "How does the L mount stack up against the other mirrorless full frame mounts?
    • Canon RF — 20mm flange, 54mm throat
    • Consortium L — 20mm flange, 51.6mm throat
    • Nikon Z — 16mm flange, 55mm throat
    • Sony FE — 18mm flange, 46mm throat

    If you're to believe Canon's and Nikon's technical descriptions about how a bigger mount is better for future new optical designs, Nikon has the most flexible mount with Canon a bit behind that. The L-mount and the FE mount have some liabilities when it comes to ray-bending at the back"

    That he 'never said they wouldn't enter the market' is besides the point. No. He didn't even mention them!

    What a huge miss! He writes a piece on the 'fight at the top' in early September, when rumours were rife on this Panasonic move and didn't even make a passing reference to it. That failing undermined the whole piece.

    Then he writes another piece and calls them 'the baby elephants' in the room. Very clever! Simply because they have no current presence with this new proposal. It's actually more like a mammoth just entered the room. LOL. 

    "If you think that there are a lot of new users to find in the market, you should post a link to back it up"

    No need. The laws of nature. People leave the market retirement, death, career change etc and people enter the market.

    The point is, there is no entrenchment for those people. Not in knowhow, habits or equipment. In such a small market the actual change is more noticeable.

    From the other article:

    "Sigma has yet to produce a digital camera with convincing UI, focus, and low light performance."

    That is also wierd. Did he forget that although Sigma will be producing cameras for this mount, the real push will be to put lenses onto the market? 14 next year alone (mainly the same Sigmas currently available for Sony. Panasonic is in the opposite position. The real push is with the camera although it will also produce lenses.

    "Safety in numbers" 

    He says that for the, ehem 'little elephants', (protection for the 'dwarves' LOL), but then, when it suits him says:

    "Canikony" to claim "90% of the market"

    And promptly lumps Canon, Nikon and Sony into one group for no valid reason.

    Why not separate those numbers and try to imagine a fourth major player? Of course that player has 0% of the market because it has no phones available yet, but it is clear that Panasonic is NOT entering this market to be a niche player. Reason enough to take major notice.

    Saying the other three have 90% of the market make little sende unless stating the obvious is back in fashion.

    As for the mount, he says:

    "If you're to believe Canon's and Nikon's technical descriptions about how a bigger mount is better for future new optical designs, Nikon has the most flexible mount with Canon a bit behind that. The L-mount and the FE mount have some liabilities when it comes to ray-bending at the back."

    The obvious stance to that is what if you don't believe all that? Are we to imagine Panasonic does? 

    And then, how far can Canon and especially Nikon go if they lose even relatively few sales to Panasonic? Are they so healthy that they can trudge on for a long period unaffected or will alarm bells sound sooner rather than later.

    Looking at how well m4/3 turned out I am optimistic about this new project. 

    We'll see how it turns out but anyone claiming this is a failed project, or too high a mountain to climb, really doesn't understand what Panasonic has already pulled off in m4/3. Notably the GH series.



    Your understanding of the industry is abysmal.
    Well, you often claim people are wrong and mostly never support it with ANYTHING external to your own opinion so in this case we're on equal terms!
    My data supports his "opinion".

    Where's your data?

    For the record, I'm your so called"stalker" because you post massive amounts of misinformation that needs correction, constantly. Still, I'm surprised that you have attached your "brand" to Panasonic, as if they need your help.


    'Equal terms'  because, in this case, and for PANASONIC, in this area, there literally is NO DATA.

    They don't actually have a product on the market.

    It all boils down to opinion. 

    Of course, we can look elsewhere for supporting data and use that as the basis of an opinion. That is what I have done. 

    Let's take the EVF. After 10 years of enormous success with EVF, do you have any reason to believe that the EVF on the S Series will not be one of the best, if not the best on the market next year?

    Etc, etc
    No data? For what? They make cameras. They’ve even made a few good ones. They’re a partner of Leica, and have made lenses and cameras for them, as well as cheaper versions of leica’s under their own brand name.

    what do you mean by “enormous success”?
    Mirrorless m3/4 was a major risk. It paid off on literally every level. The EVF was obviously one of the elements that had to hit the ground running. It did. I have a G1 and it was a revelation. I still have that camera. Panasonic has never skimped in that area.

    Since then, AFAIK, they haven't put a foot wrong in that department.

    The only real niggles on m4/3 were the speed of autofocus and those cameras that actually didn't have a built in EVF.

    Before m4/3 and other similar systems, if you wanted an interchangeable lens camera you had to go for a heavy, bulky SLR system.

    Mirrorless provided an excellent, smaller, lighter alternative and personally I Iost count of the people who upgraded from compact fixed lens systems to mirrorless systems (mostly Lumix) and those who went DSLR quickly switched to mirrorless, and always for the same reasons: weight and bulk (and on returning from holiday).

    One curious note. I rarely meet anyone with an Olympus camera, but out and about in the city, it is utterly astounding the amount of Japanese tourists that I see using Olympus mirrorless cameras.

    Now, I don't know many people that still have standalone cameras. I rarely have time to take a camera out these days myself and although Panasonic has the G9, I would dearly love to get a G7 which has an attractive price on Amazon. Strange, because I know I would really be able to use very often and I already have a G6.

    The reality is my phone's camera takes good enough casual photos but I detest taking photos in summer without an EVF.
  • Reply 42 of 49
    melgrossmelgross Posts: 31,982member
    avon b7 said:
    melgross said:

    avon b7 said:
    tmay said:
    avon b7 said:
    melgross said:
    avon b7 said:
    tmay said:
    avon b7 said:
    tmay said:
    avon b7 said:
    The big advantage for Panasonic (and Sony) is that they 'know' digital and everything associated with it (screens, viewfinders, video processors, software) far better than Canon or Nikon. They have far better logistical capacity (again, like Sony).

    I don't understand the boutique reference. This Panasonic system doesn't exist yet and any current boutique status for the mount will be lost quickly seeing as a system for the pro  markets without lenses is dead in the water. The same thing happened with m4/3. 

    Of course, Leica will also provide lenses for Panasonic without the Leica branding or certification (again, just like with m4/3).

    The cat will be amongst the pigeons as a major player with ample resources is entering a specialised and relatively small market and brings with it the kind of design agility that the likes of Canon and Nikon can only dream of. They will also back the product up with a new pro services network. Something that will be very easy to do given their existing networks. Sony and Panasonic know each other very well but in this case it is Sony that has something to lose.

    The biggest issue is the user and how to get him/her onboard but this announcement is largely a declaration of intentions and from the m4/3 (which will continue btw) experience, Panasonic won't just dip a toe into the water, it will carve out a space for itself. 




    https://www.sansmirror.com/newsviews/2018-mirrorless-camera/july-september-2018-mirrorl/the-fight-at-the-top.html

    "Too many folk believe that it is the product and technology that is the thing that wins a market war like we're about to have in mirrorless full frame. No, it's not. The thing that wins is having a customer focus. No customer, no sale, no matter what the technology. So it's how you engage and speak to that potential customer that's important. Sure, describing why your technology is better might be part of that, but you actually have to catch the customer's attention before you can get to that discussion."

    Sounds like like another company that we well know.
    Weird that that piece totally misses one major area for new growth: new users, with no entrenchment.

    The author seemingly failed to forecast the entry of Panasonic into this reduced market too.
    Read more, post less. Thom never stated anywhere that they wouldn't enter the full frame market, but now that they have, it's pretty easy to state that Panasonic is no disruption to either the Full Frame MILC or DSLR's from Canon or Nikon.

    I'll post the prior link, again;

    https://www.sansmirror.com/newsviews/2018-mirrorless-camera/july-september-2018-mirrorl/new-baby-elephant-enters.html

    If you think that there are a lot of new users to find in the market, you should post a link to back it up.

    Right now, Sony holds near 100% of the Full Frame MILC market, but that will drop rapidly as Canon and Nikon ship their first generation. Together, those three will have 90% of the market, and to Panasonic is many months away from delivery of their first models.

    If you don't agree with Thom, al least post some links stating how and why Panasonic is going to be taking marketshare from the three current players.

    Here's another quote;

    "How does the L mount stack up against the other mirrorless full frame mounts?
    • Canon RF — 20mm flange, 54mm throat
    • Consortium L — 20mm flange, 51.6mm throat
    • Nikon Z — 16mm flange, 55mm throat
    • Sony FE — 18mm flange, 46mm throat

    If you're to believe Canon's and Nikon's technical descriptions about how a bigger mount is better for future new optical designs, Nikon has the most flexible mount with Canon a bit behind that. The L-mount and the FE mount have some liabilities when it comes to ray-bending at the back"

    That he 'never said they wouldn't enter the market' is besides the point. No. He didn't even mention them!

    What a huge miss! He writes a piece on the 'fight at the top' in early September, when rumours were rife on this Panasonic move and didn't even make a passing reference to it. That failing undermined the whole piece.

    Then he writes another piece and calls them 'the baby elephants' in the room. Very clever! Simply because they have no current presence with this new proposal. It's actually more like a mammoth just entered the room. LOL. 

    "If you think that there are a lot of new users to find in the market, you should post a link to back it up"

    No need. The laws of nature. People leave the market retirement, death, career change etc and people enter the market.

    The point is, there is no entrenchment for those people. Not in knowhow, habits or equipment. In such a small market the actual change is more noticeable.

    From the other article:

    "Sigma has yet to produce a digital camera with convincing UI, focus, and low light performance."

    That is also wierd. Did he forget that although Sigma will be producing cameras for this mount, the real push will be to put lenses onto the market? 14 next year alone (mainly the same Sigmas currently available for Sony. Panasonic is in the opposite position. The real push is with the camera although it will also produce lenses.

    "Safety in numbers" 

    He says that for the, ehem 'little elephants', (protection for the 'dwarves' LOL), but then, when it suits him says:

    "Canikony" to claim "90% of the market"

    And promptly lumps Canon, Nikon and Sony into one group for no valid reason.

    Why not separate those numbers and try to imagine a fourth major player? Of course that player has 0% of the market because it has no phones available yet, but it is clear that Panasonic is NOT entering this market to be a niche player. Reason enough to take major notice.

    Saying the other three have 90% of the market make little sende unless stating the obvious is back in fashion.

    As for the mount, he says:

    "If you're to believe Canon's and Nikon's technical descriptions about how a bigger mount is better for future new optical designs, Nikon has the most flexible mount with Canon a bit behind that. The L-mount and the FE mount have some liabilities when it comes to ray-bending at the back."

    The obvious stance to that is what if you don't believe all that? Are we to imagine Panasonic does? 

    And then, how far can Canon and especially Nikon go if they lose even relatively few sales to Panasonic? Are they so healthy that they can trudge on for a long period unaffected or will alarm bells sound sooner rather than later.

    Looking at how well m4/3 turned out I am optimistic about this new project. 

    We'll see how it turns out but anyone claiming this is a failed project, or too high a mountain to climb, really doesn't understand what Panasonic has already pulled off in m4/3. Notably the GH series.



    Your understanding of the industry is abysmal.
    Well, you often claim people are wrong and mostly never support it with ANYTHING external to your own opinion so in this case we're on equal terms!
    My data supports his "opinion".

    Where's your data?

    For the record, I'm your so called"stalker" because you post massive amounts of misinformation that needs correction, constantly. Still, I'm surprised that you have attached your "brand" to Panasonic, as if they need your help.


    'Equal terms'  because, in this case, and for PANASONIC, in this area, there literally is NO DATA.

    They don't actually have a product on the market.

    It all boils down to opinion. 

    Of course, we can look elsewhere for supporting data and use that as the basis of an opinion. That is what I have done. 

    Let's take the EVF. After 10 years of enormous success with EVF, do you have any reason to believe that the EVF on the S Series will not be one of the best, if not the best on the market next year?

    Etc, etc
    No data? For what? They make cameras. They’ve even made a few good ones. They’re a partner of Leica, and have made lenses and cameras for them, as well as cheaper versions of leica’s under their own brand name.

    what do you mean by “enormous success”?
    Mirrorless m3/4 was a major risk. It paid off on literally every level. The EVF was obviously one of the elements that had to hit the ground running. It did. I have a G1 and it was a revelation. I still have that camera. Panasonic has never skimped in that area.

    Since then, AFAIK, they haven't put a foot wrong in that department.

    The only real niggles on m4/3 were the speed of autofocus and those cameras that actually didn't have a built in EVF.

    Before m4/3 and other similar systems, if you wanted an interchangeable lens camera you had to go for a heavy, bulky SLR system.

    Mirrorless provided an excellent, smaller, lighter alternative and personally I Iost count of the people who upgraded from compact fixed lens systems to mirrorless systems (mostly Lumix) and those who went DSLR quickly switched to mirrorless, and always for the same reasons: weight and bulk (and on returning from holiday).

    One curious note. I rarely meet anyone with an Olympus camera, but out and about in the city, it is utterly astounding the amount of Japanese tourists that I see using Olympus mirrorless cameras.

    Now, I don't know many people that still have standalone cameras. I rarely have time to take a camera out these days myself and although Panasonic has the G9, I would dearly love to get a G7 which has an attractive price on Amazon. Strange, because I know I would really be able to use very often and I already have a G6.

    The reality is my phone's camera takes good enough casual photos but I detest taking photos in summer without an EVF.
    Ok, I get that, but still, Panasonic never had significant sales in the industry. You have to consider what happened there. Panasonic’s best sales were for digital point and shoot style cameras, with very small sensors, and generally, 3 to 1 zooms. But when that segment began to plummet, so did Panasonic’s sales. As that was the great majority of their sales, most of it simply disappeared. In fact, many in the industry, including myself, believed that Panasonic’s hopes would go the way of samsung’s.

    by partnering with Leica, they shared some technology, and was able to offer cheaper versions of some Leica models. But Leica has always been a very small part of the camera industry after WW II. They continued to shrink after that. So the advantages are slimmer and slimmer.

    this is an interesting, though very odd partnership now, with these three. Sigma makes a lot of lenses, and the Art line is very good, but they’re still Sigma. I can see Panasonic camera buyers getting their lenses, but not Leica users. That would never happen. They wouldn’t buy Panasonic branded lenses either. This is a brand that people who want to hang the name Leica around their necks for all to see, buy.

    but Leica lenses cost an average of $5,500, so I don’t see Panasonic buyers getting those either.

    but in addition, the Leica L mount cameras have been a dead line to Leica. They basically abandoned that line a couple of years ago, after no updating it for some time. It’s dead and buried. I can’t see how they revive it again.

    sigma has the odd Foveon sensor, which has some benefits, but also drawbacks. So now they say they will develop a FF version of that. I don’t get it. Their software, which is required, sucks so badly, it’s almost unusable. So, after years of customer complaints over that, are they now going to totally rewrite it?

    they're also saying that the L mount is the first mount to be used by several manufacturers, which is so obviously wrong, that I don’t understand why they said it. The Leica mount was used by a number of manufacturers. The Pentax screw mount was a standard for many years, and more recently, the original 4/3rd DSLR mount was used by several manufacturers, and the newer mirrorless version is also.

    this entire announcement is screwy. The cameras from Panasonic won’t be available until sometime in the spring. That’s a long time away, and we know little about either one. Sigma is going to take a while to come up with new cameras and a new sensor, and what is Leica going to be doing?

    I've been in the photo industry since I was 19, in 1969. This is one of the oddest announcements, and alliances I’ve ever seen.
    edited September 2018 tmay
  • Reply 43 of 49
    nhtnht Posts: 4,496member
    avon b7 said:
    tmay said:
    avon b7 said:
    melgross said:
    avon b7 said:
    tmay said:
    avon b7 said:
    tmay said:
    avon b7 said:
    The big advantage for Panasonic (and Sony) is that they 'know' digital and everything associated with it (screens, viewfinders, video processors, software) far better than Canon or Nikon. They have far better logistical capacity (again, like Sony).

    I don't understand the boutique reference. This Panasonic system doesn't exist yet and any current boutique status for the mount will be lost quickly seeing as a system for the pro  markets without lenses is dead in the water. The same thing happened with m4/3. 

    Of course, Leica will also provide lenses for Panasonic without the Leica branding or certification (again, just like with m4/3).

    The cat will be amongst the pigeons as a major player with ample resources is entering a specialised and relatively small market and brings with it the kind of design agility that the likes of Canon and Nikon can only dream of. They will also back the product up with a new pro services network. Something that will be very easy to do given their existing networks. Sony and Panasonic know each other very well but in this case it is Sony that has something to lose.

    The biggest issue is the user and how to get him/her onboard but this announcement is largely a declaration of intentions and from the m4/3 (which will continue btw) experience, Panasonic won't just dip a toe into the water, it will carve out a space for itself. 




    https://www.sansmirror.com/newsviews/2018-mirrorless-camera/july-september-2018-mirrorl/the-fight-at-the-top.html

    "Too many folk believe that it is the product and technology that is the thing that wins a market war like we're about to have in mirrorless full frame. No, it's not. The thing that wins is having a customer focus. No customer, no sale, no matter what the technology. So it's how you engage and speak to that potential customer that's important. Sure, describing why your technology is better might be part of that, but you actually have to catch the customer's attention before you can get to that discussion."

    Sounds like like another company that we well know.
    Weird that that piece totally misses one major area for new growth: new users, with no entrenchment.

    The author seemingly failed to forecast the entry of Panasonic into this reduced market too.
    Read more, post less. Thom never stated anywhere that they wouldn't enter the full frame market, but now that they have, it's pretty easy to state that Panasonic is no disruption to either the Full Frame MILC or DSLR's from Canon or Nikon.

    I'll post the prior link, again;

    https://www.sansmirror.com/newsviews/2018-mirrorless-camera/july-september-2018-mirrorl/new-baby-elephant-enters.html

    If you think that there are a lot of new users to find in the market, you should post a link to back it up.

    Right now, Sony holds near 100% of the Full Frame MILC market, but that will drop rapidly as Canon and Nikon ship their first generation. Together, those three will have 90% of the market, and to Panasonic is many months away from delivery of their first models.

    If you don't agree with Thom, al least post some links stating how and why Panasonic is going to be taking marketshare from the three current players.

    Here's another quote;

    "How does the L mount stack up against the other mirrorless full frame mounts?
    • Canon RF — 20mm flange, 54mm throat
    • Consortium L — 20mm flange, 51.6mm throat
    • Nikon Z — 16mm flange, 55mm throat
    • Sony FE — 18mm flange, 46mm throat

    If you're to believe Canon's and Nikon's technical descriptions about how a bigger mount is better for future new optical designs, Nikon has the most flexible mount with Canon a bit behind that. The L-mount and the FE mount have some liabilities when it comes to ray-bending at the back"

    That he 'never said they wouldn't enter the market' is besides the point. No. He didn't even mention them!

    What a huge miss! He writes a piece on the 'fight at the top' in early September, when rumours were rife on this Panasonic move and didn't even make a passing reference to it. That failing undermined the whole piece.

    Then he writes another piece and calls them 'the baby elephants' in the room. Very clever! Simply because they have no current presence with this new proposal. It's actually more like a mammoth just entered the room. LOL. 

    "If you think that there are a lot of new users to find in the market, you should post a link to back it up"

    No need. The laws of nature. People leave the market retirement, death, career change etc and people enter the market.

    The point is, there is no entrenchment for those people. Not in knowhow, habits or equipment. In such a small market the actual change is more noticeable.

    From the other article:

    "Sigma has yet to produce a digital camera with convincing UI, focus, and low light performance."

    That is also wierd. Did he forget that although Sigma will be producing cameras for this mount, the real push will be to put lenses onto the market? 14 next year alone (mainly the same Sigmas currently available for Sony. Panasonic is in the opposite position. The real push is with the camera although it will also produce lenses.

    "Safety in numbers" 

    He says that for the, ehem 'little elephants', (protection for the 'dwarves' LOL), but then, when it suits him says:

    "Canikony" to claim "90% of the market"

    And promptly lumps Canon, Nikon and Sony into one group for no valid reason.

    Why not separate those numbers and try to imagine a fourth major player? Of course that player has 0% of the market because it has no phones available yet, but it is clear that Panasonic is NOT entering this market to be a niche player. Reason enough to take major notice.

    Saying the other three have 90% of the market make little sende unless stating the obvious is back in fashion.

    As for the mount, he says:

    "If you're to believe Canon's and Nikon's technical descriptions about how a bigger mount is better for future new optical designs, Nikon has the most flexible mount with Canon a bit behind that. The L-mount and the FE mount have some liabilities when it comes to ray-bending at the back."

    The obvious stance to that is what if you don't believe all that? Are we to imagine Panasonic does? 

    And then, how far can Canon and especially Nikon go if they lose even relatively few sales to Panasonic? Are they so healthy that they can trudge on for a long period unaffected or will alarm bells sound sooner rather than later.

    Looking at how well m4/3 turned out I am optimistic about this new project. 

    We'll see how it turns out but anyone claiming this is a failed project, or too high a mountain to climb, really doesn't understand what Panasonic has already pulled off in m4/3. Notably the GH series.



    Your understanding of the industry is abysmal.
    Well, you often claim people are wrong and mostly never support it with ANYTHING external to your own opinion so in this case we're on equal terms!
    My data supports his "opinion".

    Where's your data?

    For the record, I'm your so called"stalker" because you post massive amounts of misinformation that needs correction, constantly. Still, I'm surprised that you have attached your "brand" to Panasonic, as if they need your help.


    'Equal terms'  because, in this case, and for PANASONIC, in this area, there literally is NO DATA.

    They don't actually have a product on the market.

    It all boils down to opinion. 

    Of course, we can look elsewhere for supporting data and use that as the basis of an opinion. That is what I have done. 

    Let's take the EVF. After 10 years of enormous success with EVF, do you have any reason to believe that the EVF on the S Series will not be one of the best, if not the best on the market next year?

    Etc, etc
    Panasonic has a long track record so there is plenty of data to draw upon to make an assessment on how competitive they will be in Full Frame.

    The answer is DFD isn't as good as PDAF or DPAF which will impact their uptake from a photographic perspective.  At the moment, nothing on the mirrorless market can touch the A9 for AF and nothing on the DSLR market can touch the D5/D850/D500 cameras for AF. Sony and Nikon have the best DR among cameras.  

    And Canon is still the 500lb gorilla.  He lumps Canon, Nikon and Sony together because that's the market.  Just like lumping iOS and Android together is the market.  Every else is noise.  If you knew anything about the photography market you would know that.  But you don't because you have no clue.

    The other aspect is that the Sony A7III and Nikon Z6 video is good enough to challenge the GH5 and Blackmagic is releasing a new camera in the video m43 market that will destroy Panasonic on their own video turf.  So it is something of a desperation effort to launch a camera system they can't even demo because waiting till spring of 2019 to say anything would see a large erosion in their limited market and mind share.

    This is your usual tactic...we don't know X so no one can say anything at all.  That's BS.
    tmay
  • Reply 44 of 49
    avon b7avon b7 Posts: 4,302member
    nht said:
    avon b7 said:
    tmay said:
    avon b7 said:
    melgross said:
    avon b7 said:
    tmay said:
    avon b7 said:
    tmay said:
    avon b7 said:
    The big advantage for Panasonic (and Sony) is that they 'know' digital and everything associated with it (screens, viewfinders, video processors, software) far better than Canon or Nikon. They have far better logistical capacity (again, like Sony).

    I don't understand the boutique reference. This Panasonic system doesn't exist yet and any current boutique status for the mount will be lost quickly seeing as a system for the pro  markets without lenses is dead in the water. The same thing happened with m4/3. 

    Of course, Leica will also provide lenses for Panasonic without the Leica branding or certification (again, just like with m4/3).

    The cat will be amongst the pigeons as a major player with ample resources is entering a specialised and relatively small market and brings with it the kind of design agility that the likes of Canon and Nikon can only dream of. They will also back the product up with a new pro services network. Something that will be very easy to do given their existing networks. Sony and Panasonic know each other very well but in this case it is Sony that has something to lose.

    The biggest issue is the user and how to get him/her onboard but this announcement is largely a declaration of intentions and from the m4/3 (which will continue btw) experience, Panasonic won't just dip a toe into the water, it will carve out a space for itself. 




    https://www.sansmirror.com/newsviews/2018-mirrorless-camera/july-september-2018-mirrorl/the-fight-at-the-top.html

    "Too many folk believe that it is the product and technology that is the thing that wins a market war like we're about to have in mirrorless full frame. No, it's not. The thing that wins is having a customer focus. No customer, no sale, no matter what the technology. So it's how you engage and speak to that potential customer that's important. Sure, describing why your technology is better might be part of that, but you actually have to catch the customer's attention before you can get to that discussion."

    Sounds like like another company that we well know.
    Weird that that piece totally misses one major area for new growth: new users, with no entrenchment.

    The author seemingly failed to forecast the entry of Panasonic into this reduced market too.
    Read more, post less. Thom never stated anywhere that they wouldn't enter the full frame market, but now that they have, it's pretty easy to state that Panasonic is no disruption to either the Full Frame MILC or DSLR's from Canon or Nikon.

    I'll post the prior link, again;

    https://www.sansmirror.com/newsviews/2018-mirrorless-camera/july-september-2018-mirrorl/new-baby-elephant-enters.html

    If you think that there are a lot of new users to find in the market, you should post a link to back it up.

    Right now, Sony holds near 100% of the Full Frame MILC market, but that will drop rapidly as Canon and Nikon ship their first generation. Together, those three will have 90% of the market, and to Panasonic is many months away from delivery of their first models.

    If you don't agree with Thom, al least post some links stating how and why Panasonic is going to be taking marketshare from the three current players.

    Here's another quote;

    "How does the L mount stack up against the other mirrorless full frame mounts?
    • Canon RF — 20mm flange, 54mm throat
    • Consortium L — 20mm flange, 51.6mm throat
    • Nikon Z — 16mm flange, 55mm throat
    • Sony FE — 18mm flange, 46mm throat

    If you're to believe Canon's and Nikon's technical descriptions about how a bigger mount is better for future new optical designs, Nikon has the most flexible mount with Canon a bit behind that. The L-mount and the FE mount have some liabilities when it comes to ray-bending at the back"

    That he 'never said they wouldn't enter the market' is besides the point. No. He didn't even mention them!

    What a huge miss! He writes a piece on the 'fight at the top' in early September, when rumours were rife on this Panasonic move and didn't even make a passing reference to it. That failing undermined the whole piece.

    Then he writes another piece and calls them 'the baby elephants' in the room. Very clever! Simply because they have no current presence with this new proposal. It's actually more like a mammoth just entered the room. LOL. 

    "If you think that there are a lot of new users to find in the market, you should post a link to back it up"

    No need. The laws of nature. People leave the market retirement, death, career change etc and people enter the market.

    The point is, there is no entrenchment for those people. Not in knowhow, habits or equipment. In such a small market the actual change is more noticeable.

    From the other article:

    "Sigma has yet to produce a digital camera with convincing UI, focus, and low light performance."

    That is also wierd. Did he forget that although Sigma will be producing cameras for this mount, the real push will be to put lenses onto the market? 14 next year alone (mainly the same Sigmas currently available for Sony. Panasonic is in the opposite position. The real push is with the camera although it will also produce lenses.

    "Safety in numbers" 

    He says that for the, ehem 'little elephants', (protection for the 'dwarves' LOL), but then, when it suits him says:

    "Canikony" to claim "90% of the market"

    And promptly lumps Canon, Nikon and Sony into one group for no valid reason.

    Why not separate those numbers and try to imagine a fourth major player? Of course that player has 0% of the market because it has no phones available yet, but it is clear that Panasonic is NOT entering this market to be a niche player. Reason enough to take major notice.

    Saying the other three have 90% of the market make little sende unless stating the obvious is back in fashion.

    As for the mount, he says:

    "If you're to believe Canon's and Nikon's technical descriptions about how a bigger mount is better for future new optical designs, Nikon has the most flexible mount with Canon a bit behind that. The L-mount and the FE mount have some liabilities when it comes to ray-bending at the back."

    The obvious stance to that is what if you don't believe all that? Are we to imagine Panasonic does? 

    And then, how far can Canon and especially Nikon go if they lose even relatively few sales to Panasonic? Are they so healthy that they can trudge on for a long period unaffected or will alarm bells sound sooner rather than later.

    Looking at how well m4/3 turned out I am optimistic about this new project. 

    We'll see how it turns out but anyone claiming this is a failed project, or too high a mountain to climb, really doesn't understand what Panasonic has already pulled off in m4/3. Notably the GH series.



    Your understanding of the industry is abysmal.
    Well, you often claim people are wrong and mostly never support it with ANYTHING external to your own opinion so in this case we're on equal terms!
    My data supports his "opinion".

    Where's your data?

    For the record, I'm your so called"stalker" because you post massive amounts of misinformation that needs correction, constantly. Still, I'm surprised that you have attached your "brand" to Panasonic, as if they need your help.


    'Equal terms'  because, in this case, and for PANASONIC, in this area, there literally is NO DATA.

    They don't actually have a product on the market.

    It all boils down to opinion. 

    Of course, we can look elsewhere for supporting data and use that as the basis of an opinion. That is what I have done. 

    Let's take the EVF. After 10 years of enormous success with EVF, do you have any reason to believe that the EVF on the S Series will not be one of the best, if not the best on the market next year?

    Etc, etc
    Panasonic has a long track record so there is plenty of data to draw upon to make an assessment on how competitive they will be in Full Frame.

    The answer is DFD isn't as good as PDAF or DPAF which will impact their uptake from a photographic perspective.  At the moment, nothing on the mirrorless market can touch the A9 for AF and nothing on the DSLR market can touch the D5/D850/D500 cameras for AF. Sony and Nikon have the best DR among cameras.  

    And Canon is still the 500lb gorilla.  He lumps Canon, Nikon and Sony together because that's the market.  Just like lumping iOS and Android together is the market.  Every else is noise.  If you knew anything about the photography market you would know that.  But you don't because you have no clue.

    The other aspect is that the Sony A7III and Nikon Z6 video is good enough to challenge the GH5 and Blackmagic is releasing a new camera in the video m43 market that will destroy Panasonic on their own video turf.  So it is something of a desperation effort to launch a camera system they can't even demo because waiting till spring of 2019 to say anything would see a large erosion in their limited market and mind share.

    This is your usual tactic...we don't know X so no one can say anything at all.  That's BS.
    BS?

    No. For BS your post took the crown! 

    Paragraph by paragraph:

    "Panasonic has a long track record so there is plenty of data to draw upon to make an assessment on how competitive they will be in Full Frame."

    Yes, Panasonic has a long (very long) track record which is exactly why I mentioned its mirrorless chops in my first post. That though, is not data for the S Series. There is none for that. ZERO, beyond the presentation we are speaking about.

    Is the supporting data good enough to allow us to speculate on how well it could do in full frame? IMO, yes.

    "The answer is DFD isn't as good as PDAF or DPAF which will impact their uptake from a photographic perspective.  At the moment, nothing on the mirrorless market can touch the A9 for AF and nothing on the DSLR market can touch the D5/D850/D500 cameras for AF. Sony and Nikon have the best DR among cameras."

    Again, on autofocus I said it was a drawback too.

    As for saying "nothing can touch xxx on xxx". That is a worthless statement. Especially when you cherry pick items from different cameras to compare them to a camera that doesn't even exist yet. Why not add where 'nothing can touch Panasonic' too?

    Yes, companies have strong points. Big surprise! But what will the S1 series do? Oh, you don't know! Nobody knows. The announcement is interesting for that very reason! If you want to use the 'nothing can touch' line, at least wait to see what Panasonic eventually plunks on the table and then use it.

    "
    And Canon is still the 500lb gorilla.  He lumps Canon, Nikon and Sony together because that's the market.  Just like lumping iOS and Android together is the market.  Every else is noise.  If you knew anything about the photography market you would know that.  But you don't because you have no clue."

    500lb gorilla? They are all 500lb gorillas as companies. If you start breaking things down, then different companies will be bigger than others in different areas. In the area we are actually talking about, it is Sony, not Canon. They have an almost five year lead.

    Putting Sony, Nikon and Canon in the same group to say they make up 90% of the market serves ZERO purpose beyond stating the obvious. We are talking about Panasonic's entry into the market and the effect it will have on the others. The whole point is to see what impact it will have. Saying that those three currently have 90% of the market is utterly besides the point. The point is that Panasonic will take some of that share. The point is 'how much' and 'who from' but until we actually have a product on the market, those three taking 90% among themselves is worthless.

    "
    The other aspect is that the Sony A7III and Nikon Z6 video is good enough to challenge the GH5 and Blackmagic is releasing a new camera in the video m43 market that will destroy Panasonic on their own video turf.  So it is something of a desperation effort to launch a camera system they can't even demo because waiting till spring of 2019 to say anything would see a large erosion in their limited market and mind share."

    You spoke about Panasonic's track record in mirrorless video but now you throw in the Nikon Z6!!!?? A camera that isn't even available against a camera that's been on the market for a while now. Given that Panasonic track record, Nikon had a good model to follow!

    As for Blackmagic destroying Panasonic on its own video turf, well, that's your little fantasy right now. The reality is that the GH series changed the industry, Nikon is amazingly late to the game and this is about the S Series, not the GH series. Two completely different areas.

    As for 'erosion' I think the opposite is true. They are basically saying, 'look at what we have in the pipe. You might want to hold off on any near term purchase until you see the finished product'. And not only the S1 Series. We will see if a GH6 appears on m4/3 in May 2019 or not.
  • Reply 45 of 49
    tmaytmay Posts: 3,982member
    avon b7 said:
    nht said:
    avon b7 said:
    tmay said:
    avon b7 said:
    melgross said:
    avon b7 said:
    tmay said:
    avon b7 said:
    tmay said:
    avon b7 said:
    The big advantage for Panasonic (and Sony) is that they 'know' digital and everything associated with it (screens, viewfinders, video processors, software) far better than Canon or Nikon. They have far better logistical capacity (again, like Sony).

    I don't understand the boutique reference. This Panasonic system doesn't exist yet and any current boutique status for the mount will be lost quickly seeing as a system for the pro  markets without lenses is dead in the water. The same thing happened with m4/3. 

    Of course, Leica will also provide lenses for Panasonic without the Leica branding or certification (again, just like with m4/3).

    The cat will be amongst the pigeons as a major player with ample resources is entering a specialised and relatively small market and brings with it the kind of design agility that the likes of Canon and Nikon can only dream of. They will also back the product up with a new pro services network. Something that will be very easy to do given their existing networks. Sony and Panasonic know each other very well but in this case it is Sony that has something to lose.

    The biggest issue is the user and how to get him/her onboard but this announcement is largely a declaration of intentions and from the m4/3 (which will continue btw) experience, Panasonic won't just dip a toe into the water, it will carve out a space for itself. 




    https://www.sansmirror.com/newsviews/2018-mirrorless-camera/july-september-2018-mirrorl/the-fight-at-the-top.html

    "Too many folk believe that it is the product and technology that is the thing that wins a market war like we're about to have in mirrorless full frame. No, it's not. The thing that wins is having a customer focus. No customer, no sale, no matter what the technology. So it's how you engage and speak to that potential customer that's important. Sure, describing why your technology is better might be part of that, but you actually have to catch the customer's attention before you can get to that discussion."

    Sounds like like another company that we well know.
    Weird that that piece totally misses one major area for new growth: new users, with no entrenchment.

    The author seemingly failed to forecast the entry of Panasonic into this reduced market too.
    Read more, post less. Thom never stated anywhere that they wouldn't enter the full frame market, but now that they have, it's pretty easy to state that Panasonic is no disruption to either the Full Frame MILC or DSLR's from Canon or Nikon.

    I'll post the prior link, again;

    https://www.sansmirror.com/newsviews/2018-mirrorless-camera/july-september-2018-mirrorl/new-baby-elephant-enters.html

    If you think that there are a lot of new users to find in the market, you should post a link to back it up.

    Right now, Sony holds near 100% of the Full Frame MILC market, but that will drop rapidly as Canon and Nikon ship their first generation. Together, those three will have 90% of the market, and to Panasonic is many months away from delivery of their first models.

    If you don't agree with Thom, al least post some links stating how and why Panasonic is going to be taking marketshare from the three current players.

    Here's another quote;

    "How does the L mount stack up against the other mirrorless full frame mounts?
    • Canon RF — 20mm flange, 54mm throat
    • Consortium L — 20mm flange, 51.6mm throat
    • Nikon Z — 16mm flange, 55mm throat
    • Sony FE — 18mm flange, 46mm throat

    If you're to believe Canon's and Nikon's technical descriptions about how a bigger mount is better for future new optical designs, Nikon has the most flexible mount with Canon a bit behind that. The L-mount and the FE mount have some liabilities when it comes to ray-bending at the back"

    That he 'never said they wouldn't enter the market' is besides the point. No. He didn't even mention them!

    What a huge miss! He writes a piece on the 'fight at the top' in early September, when rumours were rife on this Panasonic move and didn't even make a passing reference to it. That failing undermined the whole piece.

    Then he writes another piece and calls them 'the baby elephants' in the room. Very clever! Simply because they have no current presence with this new proposal. It's actually more like a mammoth just entered the room. LOL. 

    "If you think that there are a lot of new users to find in the market, you should post a link to back it up"

    No need. The laws of nature. People leave the market retirement, death, career change etc and people enter the market.

    The point is, there is no entrenchment for those people. Not in knowhow, habits or equipment. In such a small market the actual change is more noticeable.

    From the other article:

    "Sigma has yet to produce a digital camera with convincing UI, focus, and low light performance."

    That is also wierd. Did he forget that although Sigma will be producing cameras for this mount, the real push will be to put lenses onto the market? 14 next year alone (mainly the same Sigmas currently available for Sony. Panasonic is in the opposite position. The real push is with the camera although it will also produce lenses.

    "Safety in numbers" 

    He says that for the, ehem 'little elephants', (protection for the 'dwarves' LOL), but then, when it suits him says:

    "Canikony" to claim "90% of the market"

    And promptly lumps Canon, Nikon and Sony into one group for no valid reason.

    Why not separate those numbers and try to imagine a fourth major player? Of course that player has 0% of the market because it has no phones available yet, but it is clear that Panasonic is NOT entering this market to be a niche player. Reason enough to take major notice.

    Saying the other three have 90% of the market make little sende unless stating the obvious is back in fashion.

    As for the mount, he says:

    "If you're to believe Canon's and Nikon's technical descriptions about how a bigger mount is better for future new optical designs, Nikon has the most flexible mount with Canon a bit behind that. The L-mount and the FE mount have some liabilities when it comes to ray-bending at the back."

    The obvious stance to that is what if you don't believe all that? Are we to imagine Panasonic does? 

    And then, how far can Canon and especially Nikon go if they lose even relatively few sales to Panasonic? Are they so healthy that they can trudge on for a long period unaffected or will alarm bells sound sooner rather than later.

    Looking at how well m4/3 turned out I am optimistic about this new project. 

    We'll see how it turns out but anyone claiming this is a failed project, or too high a mountain to climb, really doesn't understand what Panasonic has already pulled off in m4/3. Notably the GH series.



    Your understanding of the industry is abysmal.
    Well, you often claim people are wrong and mostly never support it with ANYTHING external to your own opinion so in this case we're on equal terms!
    My data supports his "opinion".

    Where's your data?

    For the record, I'm your so called"stalker" because you post massive amounts of misinformation that needs correction, constantly. Still, I'm surprised that you have attached your "brand" to Panasonic, as if they need your help.


    'Equal terms'  because, in this case, and for PANASONIC, in this area, there literally is NO DATA.

    They don't actually have a product on the market.

    It all boils down to opinion. 

    Of course, we can look elsewhere for supporting data and use that as the basis of an opinion. That is what I have done. 

    Let's take the EVF. After 10 years of enormous success with EVF, do you have any reason to believe that the EVF on the S Series will not be one of the best, if not the best on the market next year?

    Etc, etc
    Panasonic has a long track record so there is plenty of data to draw upon to make an assessment on how competitive they will be in Full Frame.

    The answer is DFD isn't as good as PDAF or DPAF which will impact their uptake from a photographic perspective.  At the moment, nothing on the mirrorless market can touch the A9 for AF and nothing on the DSLR market can touch the D5/D850/D500 cameras for AF. Sony and Nikon have the best DR among cameras.  

    And Canon is still the 500lb gorilla.  He lumps Canon, Nikon and Sony together because that's the market.  Just like lumping iOS and Android together is the market.  Every else is noise.  If you knew anything about the photography market you would know that.  But you don't because you have no clue.

    The other aspect is that the Sony A7III and Nikon Z6 video is good enough to challenge the GH5 and Blackmagic is releasing a new camera in the video m43 market that will destroy Panasonic on their own video turf.  So it is something of a desperation effort to launch a camera system they can't even demo because waiting till spring of 2019 to say anything would see a large erosion in their limited market and mind share.

    This is your usual tactic...we don't know X so no one can say anything at all.  That's BS.
    BS?

    No. For BS your post took the crown! 

    Paragraph by paragraph:

    "Panasonic has a long track record so there is plenty of data to draw upon to make an assessment on how competitive they will be in Full Frame."

    Yes, Panasonic has a long (very long) track record which is exactly why I mentioned its mirrorless chops in my first post. That though, is not data for the S Series. There is none for that. ZERO, beyond the presentation we are speaking about.

    Is the supporting data good enough to allow us to speculate on how well it could do in full frame? IMO, yes.

    "The answer is DFD isn't as good as PDAF or DPAF which will impact their uptake from a photographic perspective.  At the moment, nothing on the mirrorless market can touch the A9 for AF and nothing on the DSLR market can touch the D5/D850/D500 cameras for AF. Sony and Nikon have the best DR among cameras."

    Again, on autofocus I said it was a drawback too.

    As for saying "nothing can touch xxx on xxx". That is a worthless statement. Especially when you cherry pick items from different cameras to compare them to a camera that doesn't even exist yet. Why not add where 'nothing can touch Panasonic' too?

    Yes, companies have strong points. Big surprise! But what will the S1 series do? Oh, you don't know! Nobody knows. The announcement is interesting for that very reason! If you want to use the 'nothing can touch' line, at least wait to see what Panasonic eventually plunks on the table and then use it.

    "And Canon is still the 500lb gorilla.  He lumps Canon, Nikon and Sony together because that's the market.  Just like lumping iOS and Android together is the market.  Every else is noise.  If you knew anything about the photography market you would know that.  But you don't because you have no clue."

    500lb gorilla? They are all 500lb gorillas as companies. If you start breaking things down, then different companies will be bigger than others in different areas. In the area we are actually talking about, it is Sony, not Canon. They have an almost five year lead.

    Putting Sony, Nikon and Canon in the same group to say they make up 90% of the market serves ZERO purpose beyond stating the obvious. We are talking about Panasonic's entry into the market and the effect it will have on the others. The whole point is to see what impact it will have. Saying that those three currently have 90% of the market is utterly besides the point. The point is that Panasonic will take some of that share. The point is 'how much' and 'who from' but until we actually have a product on the market, those three taking 90% among themselves is worthless.

    "The other aspect is that the Sony A7III and Nikon Z6 video is good enough to challenge the GH5 and Blackmagic is releasing a new camera in the video m43 market that will destroy Panasonic on their own video turf.  So it is something of a desperation effort to launch a camera system they can't even demo because waiting till spring of 2019 to say anything would see a large erosion in their limited market and mind share."

    You spoke about Panasonic's track record in mirrorless video but now you throw in the Nikon Z6!!!?? A camera that isn't even available against a camera that's been on the market for a while now. Given that Panasonic track record, Nikon had a good model to follow!

    As for Blackmagic destroying Panasonic on its own video turf, well, that's your little fantasy right now. The reality is that the GH series changed the industry, Nikon is amazingly late to the game and this is about the S Series, not the GH series. Two completely different areas.

    As for 'erosion' I think the opposite is true. They are basically saying, 'look at what we have in the pipe. You might want to hold off on any near term purchase until you see the finished product'. And not only the S1 Series. We will see if a GH6 appears on m4/3 in May 2019 or not.
    Not that I want to jump back in this, but, you seem to be missing a significant point. 

    You were the one that stated that Panasonic would be in the market like a "cat amongst the pigeons", and yet I've heard of no working models shown to the public to date.

    All the other entrants to the Full Frame Mirrorless Market, have shown working models, are shipping or have shipping dates.

    Nikon Z7; shipping 

    Nikon Z6, shipping November 30

    (MFT) Black Magic Pocket Camera 4K, shipping.

    Canon EOS R begins shipping in October.

    It's wonderful to take Panasonics PR statements and extrapolate them to a competitor in the market, which they will be, but Panasonic is certainly entering the full frame mirrorless market with little to no technical advantages, and late at that. 

    Seems like a tough market for them to enter, and Panasonic might even see pressure in its current MFT market from the Black Magic camera.
    edited September 2018
  • Reply 46 of 49
    avon b7avon b7 Posts: 4,302member
    tmay said:
    avon b7 said:
    nht said:
    avon b7 said:
    tmay said:
    avon b7 said:
    melgross said:
    avon b7 said:
    tmay said:
    avon b7 said:
    tmay said:
    avon b7 said:
    The big advantage for Panasonic (and Sony) is that they 'know' digital and everything associated with it (screens, viewfinders, video processors, software) far better than Canon or Nikon. They have far better logistical capacity (again, like Sony).

    I don't understand the boutique reference. This Panasonic system doesn't exist yet and any current boutique status for the mount will be lost quickly seeing as a system for the pro  markets without lenses is dead in the water. The same thing happened with m4/3. 

    Of course, Leica will also provide lenses for Panasonic without the Leica branding or certification (again, just like with m4/3).

    The cat will be amongst the pigeons as a major player with ample resources is entering a specialised and relatively small market and brings with it the kind of design agility that the likes of Canon and Nikon can only dream of. They will also back the product up with a new pro services network. Something that will be very easy to do given their existing networks. Sony and Panasonic know each other very well but in this case it is Sony that has something to lose.

    The biggest issue is the user and how to get him/her onboard but this announcement is largely a declaration of intentions and from the m4/3 (which will continue btw) experience, Panasonic won't just dip a toe into the water, it will carve out a space for itself. 




    https://www.sansmirror.com/newsviews/2018-mirrorless-camera/july-september-2018-mirrorl/the-fight-at-the-top.html

    "Too many folk believe that it is the product and technology that is the thing that wins a market war like we're about to have in mirrorless full frame. No, it's not. The thing that wins is having a customer focus. No customer, no sale, no matter what the technology. So it's how you engage and speak to that potential customer that's important. Sure, describing why your technology is better might be part of that, but you actually have to catch the customer's attention before you can get to that discussion."

    Sounds like like another company that we well know.
    Weird that that piece totally misses one major area for new growth: new users, with no entrenchment.

    The author seemingly failed to forecast the entry of Panasonic into this reduced market too.
    Read more, post less. Thom never stated anywhere that they wouldn't enter the full frame market, but now that they have, it's pretty easy to state that Panasonic is no disruption to either the Full Frame MILC or DSLR's from Canon or Nikon.

    I'll post the prior link, again;

    https://www.sansmirror.com/newsviews/2018-mirrorless-camera/july-september-2018-mirrorl/new-baby-elephant-enters.html

    If you think that there are a lot of new users to find in the market, you should post a link to back it up.

    Right now, Sony holds near 100% of the Full Frame MILC market, but that will drop rapidly as Canon and Nikon ship their first generation. Together, those three will have 90% of the market, and to Panasonic is many months away from delivery of their first models.

    If you don't agree with Thom, al least post some links stating how and why Panasonic is going to be taking marketshare from the three current players.

    Here's another quote;

    "How does the L mount stack up against the other mirrorless full frame mounts?
    • Canon RF — 20mm flange, 54mm throat
    • Consortium L — 20mm flange, 51.6mm throat
    • Nikon Z — 16mm flange, 55mm throat
    • Sony FE — 18mm flange, 46mm throat

    If you're to believe Canon's and Nikon's technical descriptions about how a bigger mount is better for future new optical designs, Nikon has the most flexible mount with Canon a bit behind that. The L-mount and the FE mount have some liabilities when it comes to ray-bending at the back"

    That he 'never said they wouldn't enter the market' is besides the point. No. He didn't even mention them!

    What a huge miss! He writes a piece on the 'fight at the top' in early September, when rumours were rife on this Panasonic move and didn't even make a passing reference to it. That failing undermined the whole piece.

    Then he writes another piece and calls them 'the baby elephants' in the room. Very clever! Simply because they have no current presence with this new proposal. It's actually more like a mammoth just entered the room. LOL. 

    "If you think that there are a lot of new users to find in the market, you should post a link to back it up"

    No need. The laws of nature. People leave the market retirement, death, career change etc and people enter the market.

    The point is, there is no entrenchment for those people. Not in knowhow, habits or equipment. In such a small market the actual change is more noticeable.

    From the other article:

    "Sigma has yet to produce a digital camera with convincing UI, focus, and low light performance."

    That is also wierd. Did he forget that although Sigma will be producing cameras for this mount, the real push will be to put lenses onto the market? 14 next year alone (mainly the same Sigmas currently available for Sony. Panasonic is in the opposite position. The real push is with the camera although it will also produce lenses.

    "Safety in numbers" 

    He says that for the, ehem 'little elephants', (protection for the 'dwarves' LOL), but then, when it suits him says:

    "Canikony" to claim "90% of the market"

    And promptly lumps Canon, Nikon and Sony into one group for no valid reason.

    Why not separate those numbers and try to imagine a fourth major player? Of course that player has 0% of the market because it has no phones available yet, but it is clear that Panasonic is NOT entering this market to be a niche player. Reason enough to take major notice.

    Saying the other three have 90% of the market make little sende unless stating the obvious is back in fashion.

    As for the mount, he says:

    "If you're to believe Canon's and Nikon's technical descriptions about how a bigger mount is better for future new optical designs, Nikon has the most flexible mount with Canon a bit behind that. The L-mount and the FE mount have some liabilities when it comes to ray-bending at the back."

    The obvious stance to that is what if you don't believe all that? Are we to imagine Panasonic does? 

    And then, how far can Canon and especially Nikon go if they lose even relatively few sales to Panasonic? Are they so healthy that they can trudge on for a long period unaffected or will alarm bells sound sooner rather than later.

    Looking at how well m4/3 turned out I am optimistic about this new project. 

    We'll see how it turns out but anyone claiming this is a failed project, or too high a mountain to climb, really doesn't understand what Panasonic has already pulled off in m4/3. Notably the GH series.



    Your understanding of the industry is abysmal.
    Well, you often claim people are wrong and mostly never support it with ANYTHING external to your own opinion so in this case we're on equal terms!
    My data supports his "opinion".

    Where's your data?

    For the record, I'm your so called"stalker" because you post massive amounts of misinformation that needs correction, constantly. Still, I'm surprised that you have attached your "brand" to Panasonic, as if they need your help.


    'Equal terms'  because, in this case, and for PANASONIC, in this area, there literally is NO DATA.

    They don't actually have a product on the market.

    It all boils down to opinion. 

    Of course, we can look elsewhere for supporting data and use that as the basis of an opinion. That is what I have done. 

    Let's take the EVF. After 10 years of enormous success with EVF, do you have any reason to believe that the EVF on the S Series will not be one of the best, if not the best on the market next year?

    Etc, etc
    Panasonic has a long track record so there is plenty of data to draw upon to make an assessment on how competitive they will be in Full Frame.

    The answer is DFD isn't as good as PDAF or DPAF which will impact their uptake from a photographic perspective.  At the moment, nothing on the mirrorless market can touch the A9 for AF and nothing on the DSLR market can touch the D5/D850/D500 cameras for AF. Sony and Nikon have the best DR among cameras.  

    And Canon is still the 500lb gorilla.  He lumps Canon, Nikon and Sony together because that's the market.  Just like lumping iOS and Android together is the market.  Every else is noise.  If you knew anything about the photography market you would know that.  But you don't because you have no clue.

    The other aspect is that the Sony A7III and Nikon Z6 video is good enough to challenge the GH5 and Blackmagic is releasing a new camera in the video m43 market that will destroy Panasonic on their own video turf.  So it is something of a desperation effort to launch a camera system they can't even demo because waiting till spring of 2019 to say anything would see a large erosion in their limited market and mind share.

    This is your usual tactic...we don't know X so no one can say anything at all.  That's BS.
    BS?

    No. For BS your post took the crown! 

    Paragraph by paragraph:

    "Panasonic has a long track record so there is plenty of data to draw upon to make an assessment on how competitive they will be in Full Frame."

    Yes, Panasonic has a long (very long) track record which is exactly why I mentioned its mirrorless chops in my first post. That though, is not data for the S Series. There is none for that. ZERO, beyond the presentation we are speaking about.

    Is the supporting data good enough to allow us to speculate on how well it could do in full frame? IMO, yes.

    "The answer is DFD isn't as good as PDAF or DPAF which will impact their uptake from a photographic perspective.  At the moment, nothing on the mirrorless market can touch the A9 for AF and nothing on the DSLR market can touch the D5/D850/D500 cameras for AF. Sony and Nikon have the best DR among cameras."

    Again, on autofocus I said it was a drawback too.

    As for saying "nothing can touch xxx on xxx". That is a worthless statement. Especially when you cherry pick items from different cameras to compare them to a camera that doesn't even exist yet. Why not add where 'nothing can touch Panasonic' too?

    Yes, companies have strong points. Big surprise! But what will the S1 series do? Oh, you don't know! Nobody knows. The announcement is interesting for that very reason! If you want to use the 'nothing can touch' line, at least wait to see what Panasonic eventually plunks on the table and then use it.

    "And Canon is still the 500lb gorilla.  He lumps Canon, Nikon and Sony together because that's the market.  Just like lumping iOS and Android together is the market.  Every else is noise.  If you knew anything about the photography market you would know that.  But you don't because you have no clue."

    500lb gorilla? They are all 500lb gorillas as companies. If you start breaking things down, then different companies will be bigger than others in different areas. In the area we are actually talking about, it is Sony, not Canon. They have an almost five year lead.

    Putting Sony, Nikon and Canon in the same group to say they make up 90% of the market serves ZERO purpose beyond stating the obvious. We are talking about Panasonic's entry into the market and the effect it will have on the others. The whole point is to see what impact it will have. Saying that those three currently have 90% of the market is utterly besides the point. The point is that Panasonic will take some of that share. The point is 'how much' and 'who from' but until we actually have a product on the market, those three taking 90% among themselves is worthless.

    "The other aspect is that the Sony A7III and Nikon Z6 video is good enough to challenge the GH5 and Blackmagic is releasing a new camera in the video m43 market that will destroy Panasonic on their own video turf.  So it is something of a desperation effort to launch a camera system they can't even demo because waiting till spring of 2019 to say anything would see a large erosion in their limited market and mind share."

    You spoke about Panasonic's track record in mirrorless video but now you throw in the Nikon Z6!!!?? A camera that isn't even available against a camera that's been on the market for a while now. Given that Panasonic track record, Nikon had a good model to follow!

    As for Blackmagic destroying Panasonic on its own video turf, well, that's your little fantasy right now. The reality is that the GH series changed the industry, Nikon is amazingly late to the game and this is about the S Series, not the GH series. Two completely different areas.

    As for 'erosion' I think the opposite is true. They are basically saying, 'look at what we have in the pipe. You might want to hold off on any near term purchase until you see the finished product'. And not only the S1 Series. We will see if a GH6 appears on m4/3 in May 2019 or not.
    Not that I want to jump back in this, but, you seem to be missing a significant point. 

    You were the one that stated that Panasonic would be in the market like a "cat amongst the pigeons", and yet I've heard of no working models shown to the public to date.

    All the other entrants to the Full Frame Mirrorless Market, have shown working models, are shipping or have shipping dates.

    Nikon Z7; shipping 

    Nikon Z6, shipping November 30

    (MFT) Black Magic Pocket Camera 4K, shipping.

    Canon EOS R begins shipping in October.

    It's wonderful to take Panasonics PR statements and extrapolate them to a competitor in the market, which they will be, but Panasonic is certainly entering the full frame mirrorless market with little to no technical advantages, and late at that. 

    Seems like a tough market for them to enter, and Panasonic might even see pressure in its current MFT market from the Black Magic camera.
    Still jousting or not? LOL

    The entire industry is in pain if you look back over the 10 years. Sales have been bad. After the boom years of point and shoot 2016 was awful. 2017 a little better. 2018 looks bad again. There were even people saying that some of the larger players could disappear by the end of this decade. I can see why these subjects arise. The pie isn't what it was and now everybody wants a bit of everybody else's pie.

    Sony was pretty much pigging out and ruling the roost in full frame mirrorless. Maybe even getting lazy as a result. Now it seems like a lot of gatecrashing is going to happen. if Canon and Nikon weren't already enough, having Panasonic jump into the fray too (with all their mirrorless experience on board) really put the cat amongst the pigeons. The first to sit up and take notice will be Sony itself, having more to lose (as market leaders) than anyone else but Canon and Nikon just got a jolt too. SLR and DSLR always had mirrorless as a major threat.

    m3/4 established a capable and successful mirrorless platform. More than 50 bodies and over 60 lenses means users have options. 10 years later Olympus (especially) and Panasonic have both stated their is life left in m3/4. Olympus will surely have a major product announcement next year (its centenary).

    There is not much future in DSLR, right?

    Now, Panasonic is so huge that its camera division rarely gets a look in on a macro level. That business in lumped into the AVC division but sometimes the word 'camera' does pop up.

    For 2019, Panasonic will transfer financial resources from AVC into air-conditioning and other growth areas (remember the pain I spoke of) but even so, the goal is to stabilise sales of cameras and make them more profitable. m3/4 has a nice look right now (G9 and GH5 are reportedly doing well). The sole business reference Panasonic made to cameras for 2019 was to push 'high end mirrorless cameras'. I took that to mean the S1 series specifically. I think they plan to make splash with this release and turn heads.

    As a company, Sony is like Panasonic.

    Nikon however, is in a difficult situation. It has a lot riding on the success or failure of its recently announced and future products and, like Panasonic, is putting more resources into its non camera divisions. The problem is that Nikon, as a company, has not had an easy ride over the last few years and has lost money in once solid business areas.

    I have already mentioned this once in this thread but how long can Nikon stay healthy in the camera business in painful market conditions if it has a misstep in new products?


  • Reply 47 of 49
    tmaytmay Posts: 3,982member
    avon b7 said:
    tmay said:
    avon b7 said:
    nht said:
    avon b7 said:
    tmay said:
    avon b7 said:
    melgross said:
    avon b7 said:
    tmay said:
    avon b7 said:
    tmay said:
    avon b7 said:
    The big advantage for Panasonic (and Sony) is that they 'know' digital and everything associated with it (screens, viewfinders, video processors, software) far better than Canon or Nikon. They have far better logistical capacity (again, like Sony).

    I don't understand the boutique reference. This Panasonic system doesn't exist yet and any current boutique status for the mount will be lost quickly seeing as a system for the pro  markets without lenses is dead in the water. The same thing happened with m4/3. 

    Of course, Leica will also provide lenses for Panasonic without the Leica branding or certification (again, just like with m4/3).

    The cat will be amongst the pigeons as a major player with ample resources is entering a specialised and relatively small market and brings with it the kind of design agility that the likes of Canon and Nikon can only dream of. They will also back the product up with a new pro services network. Something that will be very easy to do given their existing networks. Sony and Panasonic know each other very well but in this case it is Sony that has something to lose.

    The biggest issue is the user and how to get him/her onboard but this announcement is largely a declaration of intentions and from the m4/3 (which will continue btw) experience, Panasonic won't just dip a toe into the water, it will carve out a space for itself. 




    https://www.sansmirror.com/newsviews/2018-mirrorless-camera/july-september-2018-mirrorl/the-fight-at-the-top.html

    "Too many folk believe that it is the product and technology that is the thing that wins a market war like we're about to have in mirrorless full frame. No, it's not. The thing that wins is having a customer focus. No customer, no sale, no matter what the technology. So it's how you engage and speak to that potential customer that's important. Sure, describing why your technology is better might be part of that, but you actually have to catch the customer's attention before you can get to that discussion."

    Sounds like like another company that we well know.
    Weird that that piece totally misses one major area for new growth: new users, with no entrenchment.

    The author seemingly failed to forecast the entry of Panasonic into this reduced market too.
    Read more, post less. Thom never stated anywhere that they wouldn't enter the full frame market, but now that they have, it's pretty easy to state that Panasonic is no disruption to either the Full Frame MILC or DSLR's from Canon or Nikon.

    I'll post the prior link, again;

    https://www.sansmirror.com/newsviews/2018-mirrorless-camera/july-september-2018-mirrorl/new-baby-elephant-enters.html

    If you think that there are a lot of new users to find in the market, you should post a link to back it up.

    Right now, Sony holds near 100% of the Full Frame MILC market, but that will drop rapidly as Canon and Nikon ship their first generation. Together, those three will have 90% of the market, and to Panasonic is many months away from delivery of their first models.

    If you don't agree with Thom, al least post some links stating how and why Panasonic is going to be taking marketshare from the three current players.

    Here's another quote;

    "How does the L mount stack up against the other mirrorless full frame mounts?
    • Canon RF — 20mm flange, 54mm throat
    • Consortium L — 20mm flange, 51.6mm throat
    • Nikon Z — 16mm flange, 55mm throat
    • Sony FE — 18mm flange, 46mm throat

    If you're to believe Canon's and Nikon's technical descriptions about how a bigger mount is better for future new optical designs, Nikon has the most flexible mount with Canon a bit behind that. The L-mount and the FE mount have some liabilities when it comes to ray-bending at the back"

    That he 'never said they wouldn't enter the market' is besides the point. No. He didn't even mention them!

    What a huge miss! He writes a piece on the 'fight at the top' in early September, when rumours were rife on this Panasonic move and didn't even make a passing reference to it. That failing undermined the whole piece.

    Then he writes another piece and calls them 'the baby elephants' in the room. Very clever! Simply because they have no current presence with this new proposal. It's actually more like a mammoth just entered the room. LOL. 

    "If you think that there are a lot of new users to find in the market, you should post a link to back it up"

    No need. The laws of nature. People leave the market retirement, death, career change etc and people enter the market.

    The point is, there is no entrenchment for those people. Not in knowhow, habits or equipment. In such a small market the actual change is more noticeable.

    From the other article:

    "Sigma has yet to produce a digital camera with convincing UI, focus, and low light performance."

    That is also wierd. Did he forget that although Sigma will be producing cameras for this mount, the real push will be to put lenses onto the market? 14 next year alone (mainly the same Sigmas currently available for Sony. Panasonic is in the opposite position. The real push is with the camera although it will also produce lenses.

    "Safety in numbers" 

    He says that for the, ehem 'little elephants', (protection for the 'dwarves' LOL), but then, when it suits him says:

    "Canikony" to claim "90% of the market"

    And promptly lumps Canon, Nikon and Sony into one group for no valid reason.

    Why not separate those numbers and try to imagine a fourth major player? Of course that player has 0% of the market because it has no phones available yet, but it is clear that Panasonic is NOT entering this market to be a niche player. Reason enough to take major notice.

    Saying the other three have 90% of the market make little sende unless stating the obvious is back in fashion.

    As for the mount, he says:

    "If you're to believe Canon's and Nikon's technical descriptions about how a bigger mount is better for future new optical designs, Nikon has the most flexible mount with Canon a bit behind that. The L-mount and the FE mount have some liabilities when it comes to ray-bending at the back."

    The obvious stance to that is what if you don't believe all that? Are we to imagine Panasonic does? 

    And then, how far can Canon and especially Nikon go if they lose even relatively few sales to Panasonic? Are they so healthy that they can trudge on for a long period unaffected or will alarm bells sound sooner rather than later.

    Looking at how well m4/3 turned out I am optimistic about this new project. 

    We'll see how it turns out but anyone claiming this is a failed project, or too high a mountain to climb, really doesn't understand what Panasonic has already pulled off in m4/3. Notably the GH series.



    Your understanding of the industry is abysmal.
    Well, you often claim people are wrong and mostly never support it with ANYTHING external to your own opinion so in this case we're on equal terms!
    My data supports his "opinion".

    Where's your data?

    For the record, I'm your so called"stalker" because you post massive amounts of misinformation that needs correction, constantly. Still, I'm surprised that you have attached your "brand" to Panasonic, as if they need your help.


    'Equal terms'  because, in this case, and for PANASONIC, in this area, there literally is NO DATA.

    They don't actually have a product on the market.

    It all boils down to opinion. 

    Of course, we can look elsewhere for supporting data and use that as the basis of an opinion. That is what I have done. 

    Let's take the EVF. After 10 years of enormous success with EVF, do you have any reason to believe that the EVF on the S Series will not be one of the best, if not the best on the market next year?

    Etc, etc
    Panasonic has a long track record so there is plenty of data to draw upon to make an assessment on how competitive they will be in Full Frame.

    The answer is DFD isn't as good as PDAF or DPAF which will impact their uptake from a photographic perspective.  At the moment, nothing on the mirrorless market can touch the A9 for AF and nothing on the DSLR market can touch the D5/D850/D500 cameras for AF. Sony and Nikon have the best DR among cameras.  

    And Canon is still the 500lb gorilla.  He lumps Canon, Nikon and Sony together because that's the market.  Just like lumping iOS and Android together is the market.  Every else is noise.  If you knew anything about the photography market you would know that.  But you don't because you have no clue.

    The other aspect is that the Sony A7III and Nikon Z6 video is good enough to challenge the GH5 and Blackmagic is releasing a new camera in the video m43 market that will destroy Panasonic on their own video turf.  So it is something of a desperation effort to launch a camera system they can't even demo because waiting till spring of 2019 to say anything would see a large erosion in their limited market and mind share.

    This is your usual tactic...we don't know X so no one can say anything at all.  That's BS.
    BS?

    No. For BS your post took the crown! 

    Paragraph by paragraph:

    "Panasonic has a long track record so there is plenty of data to draw upon to make an assessment on how competitive they will be in Full Frame."

    Yes, Panasonic has a long (very long) track record which is exactly why I mentioned its mirrorless chops in my first post. That though, is not data for the S Series. There is none for that. ZERO, beyond the presentation we are speaking about.

    Is the supporting data good enough to allow us to speculate on how well it could do in full frame? IMO, yes.

    "The answer is DFD isn't as good as PDAF or DPAF which will impact their uptake from a photographic perspective.  At the moment, nothing on the mirrorless market can touch the A9 for AF and nothing on the DSLR market can touch the D5/D850/D500 cameras for AF. Sony and Nikon have the best DR among cameras."

    Again, on autofocus I said it was a drawback too.

    As for saying "nothing can touch xxx on xxx". That is a worthless statement. Especially when you cherry pick items from different cameras to compare them to a camera that doesn't even exist yet. Why not add where 'nothing can touch Panasonic' too?

    Yes, companies have strong points. Big surprise! But what will the S1 series do? Oh, you don't know! Nobody knows. The announcement is interesting for that very reason! If you want to use the 'nothing can touch' line, at least wait to see what Panasonic eventually plunks on the table and then use it.

    "And Canon is still the 500lb gorilla.  He lumps Canon, Nikon and Sony together because that's the market.  Just like lumping iOS and Android together is the market.  Every else is noise.  If you knew anything about the photography market you would know that.  But you don't because you have no clue."

    500lb gorilla? They are all 500lb gorillas as companies. If you start breaking things down, then different companies will be bigger than others in different areas. In the area we are actually talking about, it is Sony, not Canon. They have an almost five year lead.

    Putting Sony, Nikon and Canon in the same group to say they make up 90% of the market serves ZERO purpose beyond stating the obvious. We are talking about Panasonic's entry into the market and the effect it will have on the others. The whole point is to see what impact it will have. Saying that those three currently have 90% of the market is utterly besides the point. The point is that Panasonic will take some of that share. The point is 'how much' and 'who from' but until we actually have a product on the market, those three taking 90% among themselves is worthless.

    "The other aspect is that the Sony A7III and Nikon Z6 video is good enough to challenge the GH5 and Blackmagic is releasing a new camera in the video m43 market that will destroy Panasonic on their own video turf.  So it is something of a desperation effort to launch a camera system they can't even demo because waiting till spring of 2019 to say anything would see a large erosion in their limited market and mind share."

    You spoke about Panasonic's track record in mirrorless video but now you throw in the Nikon Z6!!!?? A camera that isn't even available against a camera that's been on the market for a while now. Given that Panasonic track record, Nikon had a good model to follow!

    As for Blackmagic destroying Panasonic on its own video turf, well, that's your little fantasy right now. The reality is that the GH series changed the industry, Nikon is amazingly late to the game and this is about the S Series, not the GH series. Two completely different areas.

    As for 'erosion' I think the opposite is true. They are basically saying, 'look at what we have in the pipe. You might want to hold off on any near term purchase until you see the finished product'. And not only the S1 Series. We will see if a GH6 appears on m4/3 in May 2019 or not.
    Not that I want to jump back in this, but, you seem to be missing a significant point. 

    You were the one that stated that Panasonic would be in the market like a "cat amongst the pigeons", and yet I've heard of no working models shown to the public to date.

    All the other entrants to the Full Frame Mirrorless Market, have shown working models, are shipping or have shipping dates.

    Nikon Z7; shipping 

    Nikon Z6, shipping November 30

    (MFT) Black Magic Pocket Camera 4K, shipping.

    Canon EOS R begins shipping in October.

    It's wonderful to take Panasonics PR statements and extrapolate them to a competitor in the market, which they will be, but Panasonic is certainly entering the full frame mirrorless market with little to no technical advantages, and late at that. 

    Seems like a tough market for them to enter, and Panasonic might even see pressure in its current MFT market from the Black Magic camera.
    Still jousting or not? LOL

    The entire industry is in pain if you look back over the 10 years. Sales have been bad. After the boom years of point and shoot 2016 was awful. 2017 a little better. 2018 looks bad again. There were even people saying that some of the larger players could disappear by the end of this decade. I can see why these subjects arise. The pie isn't what it was and now everybody wants a bit of everybody else's pie.

    Sony was pretty much pigging out and ruling the roost in full frame mirrorless. Maybe even getting lazy as a result. Now it seems like a lot of gatecrashing is going to happen. if Canon and Nikon weren't already enough, having Panasonic jump into the fray too (with all their mirrorless experience on board) really put the cat amongst the pigeons. The first to sit up and take notice will be Sony itself, having more to lose (as market leaders) than anyone else but Canon and Nikon just got a jolt too. SLR and DSLR always had mirrorless as a major threat.

    m3/4 established a capable and successful mirrorless platform. More than 50 bodies and over 60 lenses means users have options. 10 years later Olympus (especially) and Panasonic have both stated their is life left in m3/4. Olympus will surely have a major product announcement next year (its centenary).

    There is not much future in DSLR, right?

    Now, Panasonic is so huge that its camera division rarely gets a look in on a macro level. That business in lumped into the AVC division but sometimes the word 'camera' does pop up.

    For 2019, Panasonic will transfer financial resources from AVC into air-conditioning and other growth areas (remember the pain I spoke of) but even so, the goal is to stabilise sales of cameras and make them more profitable. m3/4 has a nice look right now (G9 and GH5 are reportedly doing well). The sole business reference Panasonic made to cameras for 2019 was to push 'high end mirrorless cameras'. I took that to mean the S1 series specifically. I think they plan to make splash with this release and turn heads.

    As a company, Sony is like Panasonic.

    Nikon however, is in a difficult situation. It has a lot riding on the success or failure of its recently announced and future products and, like Panasonic, is putting more resources into its non camera divisions. The problem is that Nikon, as a company, has not had an easy ride over the last few years and has lost money in once solid business areas.

    I have already mentioned this once in this thread but how long can Nikon stay healthy in the camera business in painful market conditions if it has a misstep in new products?


    I"m not sure where you are getting "their is not much future in DSLR's" when there are still film cameras being made and sold, and that these current owners have a path to mirrorless in their own brands. Panasonic''s MfT products don't really give them much of a heads start.

    Nikon is always in a "difficult" position, and has made missteps, including being late to Full Frame Mirrorless, and survived, and they currently retain the number two in the industry behind Canon. You haven't shown anything that would indicate that they won't meet success with their foray into Full Frame Mirrorless, so you are just spewing FUD. The worst case for Nikon would be that they would be purchased intact by another, larger company.

    Your original post was with regard to Panasonic being a threat to the other three, and you haven't shown any data to indicate that, other than an opinion not based in anything concrete, other than statements from Panasonic PR.

    I've seen enough commentary to understand that the Canon/Nikon Duopoly in full frame DSLR's will continue, and that base has an easy transition to Full Frame Mirrorless. Panasonic has an opportunity to enter the market, but again, there isn't any indication that they will disrupt the current market with the new models. 

    Panasonic makes many fine MFT cameras and lenses, and video cameras, but that won't necessarily transfer to a disruption in the Full Frame Mirrorless market.

    You would do well to tone down the superlatives; it"s enough for Panasonic to appeal to their current MFT base and transition them to Full Frame Mirrorless. Save the competitive talk until after their are some reviews in.
  • Reply 48 of 49
    nhtnht Posts: 4,496member
    avon b7 said:

    Again, on autofocus I said it was a drawback too.

    As for saying "nothing can touch xxx on xxx". That is a worthless statement. Especially when you cherry pick items from different cameras to compare them to a camera that doesn't even exist yet. Why not add where 'nothing can touch Panasonic' too? 
    Because there isn't an area where Panasonic still reigns supreme.  The GH-5 isn't the clear winner in any segment given the Sony video capabilities.

    I don't say that the A9 is unmatched for mirrorless AF.  Measured performance does.
    Yes, companies have strong points. Big surprise! But what will the S1 series do? Oh, you don't know! Nobody knows. The announcement is interesting for that very reason! If you want to use the 'nothing can touch' line, at least wait to see what Panasonic eventually plunks on the table and then use it.
    Nope.  You can spend forever waiting and 2018 is when I and many others jump into FF mirrorless because we've been waiting for Nikon and Canon to take the plunge.  Panasonic has had years to challenge Sony and decided to wait until the rather glacial Nikon and Canon have released FF mirrorless.  

    The one area that Panny might be able to trump the others is with a global shutter.  They've been claiming that they are on the brink of an organic CMOS sensor with global shutter singe 2013.  Eventually they probably will ship.  Before Sony?  Eh.

    It's unlikely that they will ship the S1 before the A7SIII even if the A7SIII is unannounced.  The A7SIII is more likely to be the "first FF camera with 4K/60" video than the S1.
    500lb gorilla? They are all 500lb gorillas as companies. If you start breaking things down, then different companies will be bigger than others in different areas. In the area we are actually talking about, it is Sony, not Canon. They have an almost five year lead.
    Putting Sony, Nikon and Canon in the same group to say they make up 90% of the market serves ZERO purpose beyond stating the obvious. We are talking about Panasonic's entry into the market and the effect it will have on the others. The whole point is to see what impact it will have. Saying that those three currently have 90% of the market is utterly besides the point. The point is that Panasonic will take some of that share. The point is 'how much' and 'who from' but until we actually have a product on the market, those three taking 90% among themselves is worthless.
    The Sony 5 year lead is debatable with the Nikon Z6/Z7 being at the same general technical level as the A7III/A7RIII.  The Canon is a weird offering but its Canon.  

    The issue is folks won't wait for Panasonic to get it's FF act together sometime in 2019 and folks are buying into systems.  L mount seems meh at the moment and no better optically than the E mount in terms of flange and throat diameter.
    You spoke about Panasonic's track record in mirrorless video but now you throw in the Nikon Z6!!!?? A camera that isn't even available against a camera that's been on the market for a while now. Given that Panasonic track record, Nikon had a good model to follow!
    As for Blackmagic destroying Panasonic on its own video turf, well, that's your little fantasy right now. The reality is that the GH series changed the industry, Nikon is amazingly late to the game and this is about the S Series, not the GH series. Two completely different areas.
    The Z7 is shipping and the video is very good.  The Z6 video is better.  They announced and shipped within a month...Panasonic instead pulled a Mac Pro.  

    The BMPCC4K offers 4K DCI/60 RAW for $1300 using m43 lenses.  For sure it destroys the GH5 unless there is something seriously wrong with it or really late.  Panasonic will have lost its m43 video stronghold AND has been getting pressured by FF 4K offerings from Sony and now Nikon. 
    As for 'erosion' I think the opposite is true. They are basically saying, 'look at what we have in the pipe. You might want to hold off on any near term purchase until you see the finished product'. And not only the S1 Series. We will see if a GH6 appears on m4/3 in May 2019 or not.
    For sure fear of erosion.  Aren't you one of the Cassandra folks claiming that the Mac is doomed for professionals because of the Mac Pro "debacle"?  Isn't that just a "look what we have in the pipe. Please don't leave yet" announcement?  Announcing a FF system today for a release sometime in 2019 is the same thing.

    The difference is that Apple has a software ecosystem that will keep pro's engaged.  For all your negativity FCPX is still here and with ProRes Raw going to be even more relevant.  

    For m43 shooters switching to L mount means buying completely new lenses.  At that point Sony and Nikon are equally good options for FF video unless Panny can pull a global shutter rabbit out of its hat before Sony Semi does.

    And it's not just any global shutter sensor but one with good DR and AF performance.  If it's not good then 13 stops DR and 4K DCI RAW using the lenses you already own sounds like a really good stop gap vs going L mount.  If the GH6 isn't 4K RAW it's DOA unless BM screws the pooch.

    But given you don't know jack you're still talking generalities and handwaving nonsense.
    edited September 2018 tmay
  • Reply 49 of 49
    melgrossmelgross Posts: 31,982member
    nht said:
    avon b7 said:

    Again, on autofocus I said it was a drawback too.

    As for saying "nothing can touch xxx on xxx". That is a worthless statement. Especially when you cherry pick items from different cameras to compare them to a camera that doesn't even exist yet. Why not add where 'nothing can touch Panasonic' too? 
    Because there isn't an area where Panasonic still reigns supreme.  The GH-5 isn't the clear winner in any segment given the Sony video capabilities.

    I don't say that the A9 is unmatched for mirrorless AF.  Measured performance does.
    Yes, companies have strong points. Big surprise! But what will the S1 series do? Oh, you don't know! Nobody knows. The announcement is interesting for that very reason! If you want to use the 'nothing can touch' line, at least wait to see what Panasonic eventually plunks on the table and then use it.
    Nope.  You can spend forever waiting and 2018 is when I and many others jump into FF mirrorless because we've been waiting for Nikon and Canon to take the plunge.  Panasonic has had years to challenge Sony and decided to wait until the rather glacial Nikon and Canon have released FF mirrorless.  

    The one area that Panny might be able to trump the others is with a global shutter.  They've been claiming that they are on the brink of an organic CMOS sensor with global shutter singe 2013.  Eventually they probably will ship.  Before Sony?  Eh.

    It's unlikely that they will ship the S1 before the A7SIII even if the A7SIII is unannounced.  The A7SIII is more likely to be the "first FF camera with 4K/60" video than the S1.
    500lb gorilla? They are all 500lb gorillas as companies. If you start breaking things down, then different companies will be bigger than others in different areas. In the area we are actually talking about, it is Sony, not Canon. They have an almost five year lead.
    Putting Sony, Nikon and Canon in the same group to say they make up 90% of the market serves ZERO purpose beyond stating the obvious. We are talking about Panasonic's entry into the market and the effect it will have on the others. The whole point is to see what impact it will have. Saying that those three currently have 90% of the market is utterly besides the point. The point is that Panasonic will take some of that share. The point is 'how much' and 'who from' but until we actually have a product on the market, those three taking 90% among themselves is worthless.
    The Sony 5 year lead is debatable with the Nikon Z6/Z7 being at the same general technical level as the A7III/A7RIII.  The Canon is a weird offering but its Canon.  

    The issue is folks won't wait for Panasonic to get it's FF act together sometime in 2019 and folks are buying into systems.  L mount seems meh at the moment and no better optically than the E mount in terms of flange and throat diameter.
    You spoke about Panasonic's track record in mirrorless video but now you throw in the Nikon Z6!!!?? A camera that isn't even available against a camera that's been on the market for a while now. Given that Panasonic track record, Nikon had a good model to follow!
    As for Blackmagic destroying Panasonic on its own video turf, well, that's your little fantasy right now. The reality is that the GH series changed the industry, Nikon is amazingly late to the game and this is about the S Series, not the GH series. Two completely different areas.
    The Z7 is shipping and the video is very good.  The Z6 video is better.  They announced and shipped within a month...Panasonic instead pulled a Mac Pro.  

    The BMPCC4K offers 4K DCI/60 RAW for $1300 using m43 lenses.  For sure it destroys the GH5 unless there is something seriously wrong with it or really late.  Panasonic will have lost its m43 video stronghold AND has been getting pressured by FF 4K offerings from Sony and now Nikon. 
    As for 'erosion' I think the opposite is true. They are basically saying, 'look at what we have in the pipe. You might want to hold off on any near term purchase until you see the finished product'. And not only the S1 Series. We will see if a GH6 appears on m4/3 in May 2019 or not.
    For sure fear of erosion.  Aren't you one of the Cassandra folks claiming that the Mac is doomed for professionals because of the Mac Pro "debacle"?  Isn't that just a "look what we have in the pipe. Please don't leave yet" announcement?  Announcing a FF system today for a release sometime in 2019 is the same thing.

    The difference is that Apple has a software ecosystem that will keep pro's engaged.  For all your negativity FCPX is still here and with ProRes Raw going to be even more relevant.  

    For m43 shooters switching to L mount means buying completely new lenses.  At that point Sony and Nikon are equally good options for FF video unless Panny can pull a global shutter rabbit out of its hat before Sony Semi does.

    And it's not just any global shutter sensor but one with good DR and AF performance.  If it's not good then 13 stops DR and 4K DCI RAW using the lenses you already own sounds like a really good stop gap vs going L mount.  If the GH6 isn't 4K RAW it's DOA unless BM screws the pooch.

    But given you don't know jack you're still talking generalities and handwaving nonsense.
    Canon has shown an H sized global shutter sensor intended for video, but they say they will rework it for their mostly still lines too. I imagine that means FF. It would work for both their DSLR and mirrorless lines. When? We don’t know. But it’s in production now, and was first shown almost two years ago.
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