Apple's powerful new Mac mini perfectly suits the 'Pro' market, yet the complaints have al...

1456810

Comments

  • Reply 141 of 189
    cat52cat52 Posts: 124member
    I'm a die-hard Mini fan and while I can't say I enjoyed the 4 year wait between updates, Tuesday's announcement was *exactly* what I had been hoping for!  So I'm more than thrilled...  And hey, better late than never.

    With the cpu/ram/ssd I want, it's going to be around $2k all told, but worth every penny considering how rugged and durable all my other Mini's have been...

    So well done Apple, and thank you.

  • Reply 142 of 189
    docno42docno42 Posts: 3,551member
    sabon said:

    PS: WHERE IS THE iPad for PROGRAMMERS???? Some of us want a machine that has lots of power and is very portable and doesn’t cost $5000. That is the iPad Pro. Except that there is no way, other than Swift Playgrounds, for people to program on an iPad without doing it remotely. I do that now but I would rather be able to do it all on the iPad. Think I’m nuts? That’s what people told me when “real programmers” only programmed on mainframes. They lost their jobs because they couldn’t change and adapt. I’ve always been ahead of the bleeding edge waiting for technology to catch up for 35 years now. 
    Until they fix text selection in iOS you really don't want that.  I bought an original iPad Pro instead of replacing my MacBook Pro and for the most part it was wonderful.

    Except for text selection.  It absolutely SUCKS in iOS.  And no ESC key on Apple iOS physical keyboards too.  I'm typing on a MacBook Air now; text selection was such a complete shitshow I finally gave up and went back to macOS
    GeorgeBMac
  • Reply 143 of 189
    This is finally and truly the headless iMac which I called it and it's even better because you can upgrade the RAM later vs. the 21.5" iMac which you can't. Apple just hit the bull's eye.
    The 21.5” iMac switched to socketed DDR4 with the 2017 model. That’s the reason I said the next mini would have socketed ram, since I was expecting 28W (or 45W hexa-core if we were reallly lucky) mobile CPUs again with the logic board sharing design with 13” MBP/iMac 1080p. 

    Very pleasantly surprised to see the desktop-class 65W parts—and a hexa-core mini. I thought there would be a pretty small possibility of getting both quads and hexa-cores, or 35W/65W S-series for that matter. Happy to be wrong in both cases  :)
    edited October 2018
  • Reply 144 of 189
    pakitt said:
    The Mac Mini was launched and intended as an affordable Mac option for migrating PC users to the macOS world. The basic version was less than 500$. It seems that everybody forgets that. Now the Mini is clearly something else. It is not the "most affordable Mac desktop" anymore. Period. The price, the specs, everything indicates their strategy for this product has radically changed. You want an "affordable" Mac? get an iOS iPad/iPhone. macOS for the "masses"? None for you.
    iOS for the masses.  macOS for the high-end market.  That's how it looks like Apple is positioning these platforms.
    $799 is hardly targeting the high-end market, although if you need it/are willing to pay for it (the excellent 27” monitor that’s a 1,300 value, that is), the $1,799 27” iMac 5K is a helluva deal. Though I prefer the 256GB SSD config for $1,899. 
    edited November 2018
  • Reply 145 of 189
    Bar said:
    All the announcements were pretty meh to be honest. Wasn’t anything anyone really needed. The only thing I took away from the event is that only affluent people are wanted as the Apple customer. They completely ignored the entry level market with the Mac mini. Won’t be able to recommend Apple products at all to the average individual anymore considering all that most people do is check email and watch cat videos. 
    Don’t worry most people don’t check email anymore, they check Twitter, Facebook, Whatsapp, cat videos don’t come by email. If Apple is not present in that “entry level market” let be it. There is Android and ChromeOS for those.
    This is exactly the market best served by a $329 iPad. My mom does all that and more on hers, and her 2014 mini has sat unused for a couple of years. 
    edited November 2018
  • Reply 146 of 189
    jbdragon said:
    I think prices went up to much for what you get. $799 for a i3, really? Great Apple finally updated the hardware and then jacked prices up. It should start at $599 at most for that i3. The Mac Mini was suppose to be a way to get a low cost Mac. Now it's a over priced thing. It was never meant to be a PRO type of thing. It's so far from that now with a weak i3 at a $799 starting price point. I don't get it.
    The 2014 represented an abandonment of the pro portion of the market: no quad option, no dual drive bays, using 15W/28W CPUs. Even with low-priced entry level models, it failed to sell very well to the home/consumer or “switchers”. So Apple decided to go higher end with a more pro-focused lineup to try to find a market, and I think they will. 

    So the low-end strategy didn’t work; if the higher-end strategy fails to get decent traction, this will be the last update. And the mini will have had a good run. 

    btw don’t worry about Intel’s marketing-based nomenclature, there’s nothing wrong with an i3. 
    edited November 2018
  • Reply 147 of 189
    canukstormcanukstorm Posts: 2,532member
    Where do you get off saying we can't complain?  That's a horrific, narrow attitude. I think the mini will be good for some people, but I take exception to two issues - 1) It's too expensive for the base model.  This is supposed to be the entry level computer that wins over your standard Windows goon. Except now its approaching twice the price of the original mini.  I'm betting it has an impressive profit-margin for the company though. 2) Lack of a discreet GPU option yet again.  But the ability to add an eGPU partially offsets that, I suppose.  Still, should have it as an option.  I honestly feel that they set their price points to keep demand down.  Otherwise I was wanting to order one yesterday, but I decided not to. (because of the price mainly.)
    Nope.  Apple doesn't pitch this as an entry level computer.  Here's the first full paragraph on the Mac mini page:  "In addition to being a great desktop computer, Mac mini powers everything from home automation to giant render farms. And now with eighth-generation Intel quad-core and 6-core processors and Intel UHD Graphics 630, Mac mini has even more compute power for industrial-grade tasks. So whether you’re running a live concert sound engine or testing your latest iOS app, Mac mini is the shortest distance between a great idea and a great result."

    Nothing on the page suggests a "getting started on Mac" use case.  The "switcher" use case was over a decade ago.  This is not your father's Mac mini.
    Exactly!
  • Reply 148 of 189
    StayPuftZombieStayPuftZombie Posts: 45unconfirmed, member
    tylersdad said:
    tylersdad said:
    d3bug said:
    I'm sorry Mr Gallagher and Mr. Wuerthele, but you cannot redefine what "Pro" means just for Apple. Everyone abides by the same definition of "Pro" or nobody does. I'm afraid you are guilty of a classic hypocrisy move... one definition for me, and one for thee. When the components you might wish to upgrade (RAM, HDD, CPU, GPU) are soldered to the board, I'm afraid you cannot claim that system to be professional in any way... You might get away with "Prosumer", but not "Professional".
    Okay, I'll bite. What's Apple's definition of "Pro" then? Show me where they codified it? Apple uses "Pro" as nothing more than a marketing term, and never has applied a classification to what makes one product pro and one not.

    Upgrading components is in utterly no way the definition of "Pro." That may be YOUR definition, but it means you're calling Disney, Pixar, NASA, IBM, and most of the rest of the market not pro because they don't crack the cases open -- and never have, even when the door folded down. You really don't have any room to call somebody else a hypocrite in this matter.
    It's not just about not being able to upgrade. Components fail. Apple hardware is no less susceptible to this than other hardware. If you can't upgrade the SDD, then you certainly can't repair it. Which begs the question: What happens when parts fail? Do these devices need to be sent back to Apple or taken to an Apple authorized repair facility?
    I don’t think I understand the question fully. If they fail, then yes. That also has no bearing on “pro” though.
    My comment had less to do with the Pro vs. Not-Pro debate. I honestly have no opinion there, since each person's definition of "Pro" is bound to vary considerably. 

    I'm more or less just thinking about how these companies would possibly use a device like this without repairability (if that's even a word) .If you have a farm of these, some component is bound to fail. It's just the reality of electronics--no matter the quality of the components that make up the electronics. The companies you mentioned never crack them open at all? Not even to make repairs? I've built out data centers. Stuff breaks. And rather than be down a server, I can just pop in new components and have my downed server back up and running in a few hours. We keep spares of certain types of hardware--RAM, hard drives, CPUs. It's not an option with a device like this. You just have to wait for it to get repaired, do without, or keep spare computers around. 
    If you have built server farms and have repair experience, then you are able to upgrade also the new Mac Mini’s SSD. It is your job to figure out how. You cannot expect the same from all Apple customers. Apple doesn’t build computers for you and the ones like you, it build computers for general public. On the other hand, we are no more in the “plug and pray” era, those tightly integrated devices cannot be repaired using a   mere how-to sheet, this is a matter of a very valuable expertise, training, talent and refined personal taste. You cannot expect that from people who get OCD when they face a new version of a stupid keyboard.
    Um no one force apple to say this machine would be directed to pros. Which they did. And Pros and power users and enthusiasts all want user upgradable storage.  Because 2 years from now a 4TB SSD stick will cost nothing and it's wasteful to then need to toss out an entire machine because it doesnt offer enough storage. Or the other option is to have a rats nest of drives cables ala the oh-so-successful trashcan mac. Yea great choices for the enthusiats.  Way to show you care.
    If 2 years from now a 4 TB SSD stick will cost nothing then so a Thunderbolt external storage will be, and no one will toss out the entire machine, calm down...
    Right so screw the people that need internal storage. Viva la snake pit attached drive bricks. People that need embedded solutions, lets begrudge them. There’s only one true way. Rats nests of external storage. Again, look to the trash can Mac for an example of that raging success. A success so great, yet apple had to admit it was a failure. 
  • Reply 149 of 189
    tylersdad said:
    tylersdad said:
    d3bug said:
    I'm sorry Mr Gallagher and Mr. Wuerthele, but you cannot redefine what "Pro" means just for Apple. Everyone abides by the same definition of "Pro" or nobody does. I'm afraid you are guilty of a classic hypocrisy move... one definition for me, and one for thee. When the components you might wish to upgrade (RAM, HDD, CPU, GPU) are soldered to the board, I'm afraid you cannot claim that system to be professional in any way... You might get away with "Prosumer", but not "Professional".
    Okay, I'll bite. What's Apple's definition of "Pro" then? Show me where they codified it? Apple uses "Pro" as nothing more than a marketing term, and never has applied a classification to what makes one product pro and one not.

    Upgrading components is in utterly no way the definition of "Pro." That may be YOUR definition, but it means you're calling Disney, Pixar, NASA, IBM, and most of the rest of the market not pro because they don't crack the cases open -- and never have, even when the door folded down. You really don't have any room to call somebody else a hypocrite in this matter.
    It's not just about not being able to upgrade. Components fail. Apple hardware is no less susceptible to this than other hardware. If you can't upgrade the SDD, then you certainly can't repair it. Which begs the question: What happens when parts fail? Do these devices need to be sent back to Apple or taken to an Apple authorized repair facility?
    I don’t think I understand the question fully. If they fail, then yes. That also has no bearing on “pro” though.
    My comment had less to do with the Pro vs. Not-Pro debate. I honestly have no opinion there, since each person's definition of "Pro" is bound to vary considerably. 

    I'm more or less just thinking about how these companies would possibly use a device like this without repairability (if that's even a word) .If you have a farm of these, some component is bound to fail. It's just the reality of electronics--no matter the quality of the components that make up the electronics. The companies you mentioned never crack them open at all? Not even to make repairs? I've built out data centers. Stuff breaks. And rather than be down a server, I can just pop in new components and have my downed server back up and running in a few hours. We keep spares of certain types of hardware--RAM, hard drives, CPUs. It's not an option with a device like this. You just have to wait for it to get repaired, do without, or keep spare computers around. 
    If you have built server farms and have repair experience, then you are able to upgrade also the new Mac Mini’s SSD. It is your job to figure out how. You cannot expect the same from all Apple customers. Apple doesn’t build computers for you and the ones like you, it build computers for general public. On the other hand, we are no more in the “plug and pray” era, those tightly integrated devices cannot be repaired using a   mere how-to sheet, this is a matter of a very valuable expertise, training, talent and refined personal taste. You cannot expect that from people who get OCD when they face a new version of a stupid keyboard.
    Um no one force apple to say this machine would be directed to pros. Which they did. And Pros and power users and enthusiasts all want user upgradable storage.  Because 2 years from now a 4TB SSD stick will cost nothing and it's wasteful to then need to toss out an entire machine because it doesnt offer enough storage. Or the other option is to have a rats nest of drives cables ala the oh-so-successful trashcan mac. Yea great choices for the enthusiats.  Way to show you care.
    If 2 years from now a 4 TB SSD stick will cost nothing then so a Thunderbolt external storage will be, and no one will toss out the entire machine, calm down...
    Right so screw the people that need internal storage. Viva la snake pit attached drive bricks. People that need embedded solutions, lets begrudge them. There’s only one true way. Rats nests of external storage. Again, look to the trash can Mac for an example of that raging success. A success so great, yet apple had to admit it was a failure. 
    How do you embed those “drive bricks” and “rats nets” into a Mac Mini enclosure? Stop dreaming, if people need those they’ll be external, obviously. If you dream of an enclosure as big as to enclose all of your fauna then you’re on the wrong thread, this thread is related to Mac Mini.
    PickUrPoison
  • Reply 150 of 189
    hentaiboy said:
    If Apple had priced the Base Mini at $699 then I believe there would be zero complaints. 


    What about this ... buy an iPhone XS Max and an Apple Hermès Watch and a new Mac Mini is thrown in for an extra $150  :D
  • Reply 151 of 189
    Because this is a far cry from a pro machine. Come on now. No pro-GPU (you can forget about working with an nvidia card anyway, as apple stopped supporting the unofficial drivers), not enough ports, etc. The comparison with the iMac Pro has already been made, and for that money you can buy a whole lot more elsewhere. The Vega cards are nice, but if you do 3D or ML it holds no candle to Nvidia. I guess the new GPU in the iPad pro is a sign that Apple also does not want to work with AMD anymore in the long run.
  • Reply 152 of 189
    crowleycrowley Posts: 8,717member
    StayPuftZombie said:

    Right so screw the people that need internal storage. 
    Do they exist?
  • Reply 153 of 189
    nhtnht Posts: 4,522member
    docno42 said:
    sabon said:

    PS: WHERE IS THE iPad for PROGRAMMERS???? Some of us want a machine that has lots of power and is very portable and doesn’t cost $5000. That is the iPad Pro. Except that there is no way, other than Swift Playgrounds, for people to program on an iPad without doing it remotely. I do that now but I would rather be able to do it all on the iPad. Think I’m nuts? That’s what people told me when “real programmers” only programmed on mainframes. They lost their jobs because they couldn’t change and adapt. I’ve always been ahead of the bleeding edge waiting for technology to catch up for 35 years now. 
    Until they fix text selection in iOS you really don't want that.  I bought an original iPad Pro instead of replacing my MacBook Pro and for the most part it was wonderful.

    Except for text selection.  It absolutely SUCKS in iOS.  And no ESC key on Apple iOS physical keyboards too.  I'm typing on a MacBook Air now; text selection was such a complete shitshow I finally gave up and went back to macOS
    Yes, same here.
    docno42
  • Reply 154 of 189
    nhtnht Posts: 4,522member
    michelb76 said:
    Because this is a far cry from a pro machine. Come on now. No pro-GPU (you can forget about working with an nvidia card anyway, as apple stopped supporting the unofficial drivers), not enough ports, etc. The comparison with the iMac Pro has already been made, and for that money you can buy a whole lot more elsewhere. The Vega cards are nice, but if you do 3D or ML it holds no candle to Nvidia. I guess the new GPU in the iPad pro is a sign that Apple also does not want to work with AMD anymore in the long run.
    CUDA drivers and libs seems to work better in windows than anything else.  We replaced a Linux install with win10 because of that.
  • Reply 155 of 189
    d3bug said:
    I'm sorry Mr Gallagher and Mr. Wuerthele, but you cannot redefine what "Pro" means just for Apple. Everyone abides by the same definition of "Pro" or nobody does. I'm afraid you are guilty of a classic hypocrisy move... one definition for me, and one for thee. When the components you might wish to upgrade (RAM, HDD, CPU, GPU) are soldered to the board, I'm afraid you cannot claim that system to be professional in any way... You might get away with "Prosumer", but not "Professional".
    Okay, I'll bite. What's Apple's definition of "Pro" then? Show me where they codified it? Apple uses "Pro" as nothing more than a marketing term, and never has applied a classification to what makes one product pro and one not.

    Upgrading components is in utterly no way the definition of "Pro." That may be YOUR definition, but it means you're calling Disney, Pixar, NASA, IBM, and most of the rest of the market not pro because they don't crack the cases open -- and never have, even when the door folded down. You really don't have any room to call somebody else a hypocrite in this matter.

    Sure, pros hate the ability to upgrade. ::eye roll:: They have traditionally just loved everything being totally non upgradable, but better yet, doing upgrades through snake pits of external boxes and cables. See the trashcan mac for an example of success.  ::eyeroll::
    I don't know how you use your Mac(s) and I don't begrudge you your opinion or preferences, but I thought it worth mentioning that at least some of us feel differently.

    I actually like the quasi-"modular" approach of the 2013 Mac Pro and the new Mac mini. My external storage can be retained or upgraded independent of the computer itself, which can also be swapped out without affecting the storage setup. Devices can be moved from machine to machine. Configurations can be more easily modified.

    They're the opposite of the iMac. I like that.
    Nothing would stop you from having that if Apple also put in an NVMe slot that made user storage upgradable internally.  A lot of mac mini applications involve having it be encapsulated into a confined area and not having an internal user upgradable storage area is limiting.  

    I do not begrudge those that want dangling storage, but you have that. For those that want the ability to upgrade internal storage, we can look to the HP mini Z that not only has Xeons, but 2 forms of internal user upgradable storage (sata and NVMe sticks).

    So in short, not only do I not begrudge your use, which makes sense for many applications (and I agree with your points on the modularity of the storage separated from the hardware corpus), congratulations, you have what you want. On the other hand, those that need to have flexibility in internal storage are quite begrudged in practice. Apple's admitting failure on the traschcan mac is evidence that quite a few were begrudged. 
    Your point is well taken. Still, even if external storage isn't your preferred approach -- the point on which we differ and is mostly a matter of personal preference -- it's a relatively minor obstacle, and maybe not worth choosing to forego an otherwise good machine.

    If we shift the conversation from desktop machines to laptops, it's a whole different animal and I agree with you. External storage is a seriously unwelcome hindrance in a portable application. Because of that I tend to buy the maximum available when I order the machine, but then Apple's ridiculous upgrade prices become an issue. Add the facts that storage needs tend to grow as files accumulate, and that internal storage options both increase in capacity and become less expensive over time, and Apple's approach -- locking down internal storage -- becomes really frustrating.
  • Reply 156 of 189
    StayPuftZombie said:
    [...] Again, look to the trash can Mac for an example of that raging success. A success so great, yet apple had to admit it was a failure. 
    Apple did not declare the Mac Pro a failure because it didn't consolidate various components into its chassis. Where they declared failure was the thermal environment they created, which made it either impossible or impractical for Apple to upgrade it. I don't think Apple has ever said the fundamental concept was a failure, or that there was anything wrong with the machines they made, just that they discovered they couldn't keep it current.

    I see the trashcan in use everywhere I go in my work, so whatever shortcomings it's perceived to have weren't enough to prevent facilities from putting them to work.
  • Reply 157 of 189
    nhtnht Posts: 4,522member
    StayPuftZombie said:
    [...] Again, look to the trash can Mac for an example of that raging success. A success so great, yet apple had to admit it was a failure. 
    Apple did not declare the Mac Pro a failure because it didn't consolidate various components into its chassis. Where they declared failure was the thermal environment they created, which made it either impossible or impractical for Apple to upgrade it. I don't think Apple has ever said the fundamental concept was a failure, or that there was anything wrong with the machines they made, just that they discovered they couldn't keep it current.

    I see the trashcan in use everywhere I go in my work, so whatever shortcomings it's perceived to have weren't enough to prevent facilities from putting them to work.
    I like my lowly 6 core trash can.  

    Quiet, good performance (for something 5 years old) and I have a couple enclosures attached without any issues with wires.  One is a fire resistant one used for on site backup that I would have with any set up and the other a thunderbolt one that could live inside a larger MP but meh I like it separate as I can connect it to my MBP natively if I want.

    I swap machines every 3 years and have a few at a time so it’s less hassle to swap the compute units and keep storage unchanged until they get too small/slow.
  • Reply 158 of 189
    nhtnht Posts: 4,522member
    tylersdad said:
    tylersdad said:
    d3bug said:
    I'm sorry Mr Gallagher and Mr. Wuerthele, but you cannot redefine what "Pro" means just for Apple. Everyone abides by the same definition of "Pro" or nobody does. I'm afraid you are guilty of a classic hypocrisy move... one definition for me, and one for thee. When the components you might wish to upgrade (RAM, HDD, CPU, GPU) are soldered to the board, I'm afraid you cannot claim that system to be professional in any way... You might get away with "Prosumer", but not "Professional".
    Okay, I'll bite. What's Apple's definition of "Pro" then? Show me where they codified it? Apple uses "Pro" as nothing more than a marketing term, and never has applied a classification to what makes one product pro and one not.

    Upgrading components is in utterly no way the definition of "Pro." That may be YOUR definition, but it means you're calling Disney, Pixar, NASA, IBM, and most of the rest of the market not pro because they don't crack the cases open -- and never have, even when the door folded down. You really don't have any room to call somebody else a hypocrite in this matter.
    It's not just about not being able to upgrade. Components fail. Apple hardware is no less susceptible to this than other hardware. If you can't upgrade the SDD, then you certainly can't repair it. Which begs the question: What happens when parts fail? Do these devices need to be sent back to Apple or taken to an Apple authorized repair facility?
    I don’t think I understand the question fully. If they fail, then yes. That also has no bearing on “pro” though.
    My comment had less to do with the Pro vs. Not-Pro debate. I honestly have no opinion there, since each person's definition of "Pro" is bound to vary considerably. 

    I'm more or less just thinking about how these companies would possibly use a device like this without repairability (if that's even a word) .If you have a farm of these, some component is bound to fail. It's just the reality of electronics--no matter the quality of the components that make up the electronics. The companies you mentioned never crack them open at all? Not even to make repairs? I've built out data centers. Stuff breaks. And rather than be down a server, I can just pop in new components and have my downed server back up and running in a few hours. We keep spares of certain types of hardware--RAM, hard drives, CPUs. It's not an option with a device like this. You just have to wait for it to get repaired, do without, or keep spare computers around. 
    If you have built server farms and have repair experience, then you are able to upgrade also the new Mac Mini’s SSD. It is your job to figure out how. You cannot expect the same from all Apple customers. Apple doesn’t build computers for you and the ones like you, it build computers for general public. On the other hand, we are no more in the “plug and pray” era, those tightly integrated devices cannot be repaired using a   mere how-to sheet, this is a matter of a very valuable expertise, training, talent and refined personal taste. You cannot expect that from people who get OCD when they face a new version of a stupid keyboard.
    Um no one force apple to say this machine would be directed to pros. Which they did. And Pros and power users and enthusiasts all want user upgradable storage.  Because 2 years from now a 4TB SSD stick will cost nothing and it's wasteful to then need to toss out an entire machine because it doesnt offer enough storage. Or the other option is to have a rats nest of drives cables ala the oh-so-successful trashcan mac. Yea great choices for the enthusiats.  Way to show you care.
    If 2 years from now a 4 TB SSD stick will cost nothing then so a Thunderbolt external storage will be, and no one will toss out the entire machine, calm down...
    Right so screw the people that need internal storage. Viva la snake pit attached drive bricks. People that need embedded solutions, lets begrudge them. There’s only one true way. Rats nests of external storage. Again, look to the trash can Mac for an example of that raging success. A success so great, yet apple had to admit it was a failure. 
    Buy a NUC.  I have 2 and are buying more.  Done.  

    Im likely getting a mini too to replace my MP but I’m going to wait until the new ones come out to see if I will want that instead.
  • Reply 159 of 189
    tylersdad said:
    tylersdad said:
    d3bug said:
    I'm sorry Mr Gallagher and Mr. Wuerthele, but you cannot redefine what "Pro" means just for Apple. Everyone abides by the same definition of "Pro" or nobody does. I'm afraid you are guilty of a classic hypocrisy move... one definition for me, and one for thee. When the components you might wish to upgrade (RAM, HDD, CPU, GPU) are soldered to the board, I'm afraid you cannot claim that system to be professional in any way... You might get away with "Prosumer", but not "Professional".
    Okay, I'll bite. What's Apple's definition of "Pro" then? Show me where they codified it? Apple uses "Pro" as nothing more than a marketing term, and never has applied a classification to what makes one product pro and one not.

    Upgrading components is in utterly no way the definition of "Pro." That may be YOUR definition, but it means you're calling Disney, Pixar, NASA, IBM, and most of the rest of the market not pro because they don't crack the cases open -- and never have, even when the door folded down. You really don't have any room to call somebody else a hypocrite in this matter.
    It's not just about not being able to upgrade. Components fail. Apple hardware is no less susceptible to this than other hardware. If you can't upgrade the SDD, then you certainly can't repair it. Which begs the question: What happens when parts fail? Do these devices need to be sent back to Apple or taken to an Apple authorized repair facility?
    I don’t think I understand the question fully. If they fail, then yes. That also has no bearing on “pro” though.
    My comment had less to do with the Pro vs. Not-Pro debate. I honestly have no opinion there, since each person's definition of "Pro" is bound to vary considerably. 

    I'm more or less just thinking about how these companies would possibly use a device like this without repairability (if that's even a word) .If you have a farm of these, some component is bound to fail. It's just the reality of electronics--no matter the quality of the components that make up the electronics. The companies you mentioned never crack them open at all? Not even to make repairs? I've built out data centers. Stuff breaks. And rather than be down a server, I can just pop in new components and have my downed server back up and running in a few hours. We keep spares of certain types of hardware--RAM, hard drives, CPUs. It's not an option with a device like this. You just have to wait for it to get repaired, do without, or keep spare computers around. 
    If you have built server farms and have repair experience, then you are able to upgrade also the new Mac Mini’s SSD. It is your job to figure out how. You cannot expect the same from all Apple customers. Apple doesn’t build computers for you and the ones like you, it build computers for general public. On the other hand, we are no more in the “plug and pray” era, those tightly integrated devices cannot be repaired using a   mere how-to sheet, this is a matter of a very valuable expertise, training, talent and refined personal taste. You cannot expect that from people who get OCD when they face a new version of a stupid keyboard.
    Um no one force apple to say this machine would be directed to pros. Which they did. And Pros and power users and enthusiasts all want user upgradable storage.  Because 2 years from now a 4TB SSD stick will cost nothing and it's wasteful to then need to toss out an entire machine because it doesnt offer enough storage. Or the other option is to have a rats nest of drives cables ala the oh-so-successful trashcan mac. Yea great choices for the enthusiats.  Way to show you care.
    If 2 years from now a 4 TB SSD stick will cost nothing then so a Thunderbolt external storage will be, and no one will toss out the entire machine, calm down...
    Right so screw the people that need internal storage. Viva la snake pit attached drive bricks. People that need embedded solutions, lets begrudge them. There’s only one true way. Rats nests of external storage. Again, look to the trash can Mac for an example of that raging success. A success so great, yet apple had to admit it was a failure. 
    How do you embed those “drive bricks” and “rats nets” into a Mac Mini enclosure? Stop dreaming, if people need those they’ll be external, obviously. If you dream of an enclosure as big as to enclose all of your fauna then you’re on the wrong thread, this thread is related to Mac Mini.
    There's an argument to made that there's no point in the Mac being "mini" if it requires an assortment of external peripherals to make it useful. Most external storage systems are bigger than the computer. Same with graphics accelerators like the Blackmagic. Doesn't that make the size of the computer itself pretty much irrelevant?

    How would the enjoyment or utility of a Mac in this class be adversely affected by making it twice as big? Or even three or four times as big, like the size of a small RAID enclosure? If that meant quieter operation, better thermal control, room for internal storage, and more flexibility in the components Apple can design around (like discrete graphics and/or more powerful CPUs), wouldn't that be grounds for making it bigger?

    I'm not saying that I'd prefer a bigger enclosure, I don't really care very much, I'm just saying it doesn't really NEED to be tiny. It just needs to be small enough to fit comfortably in the majority of use settings. Making it bigger wouldn't deter me from buying one.
    docno42
  • Reply 160 of 189
    nhtnht Posts: 4,522member
    tylersdad said:
    tylersdad said:
    d3bug said:
    I'm sorry Mr Gallagher and Mr. Wuerthele, but you cannot redefine what "Pro" means just for Apple. Everyone abides by the same definition of "Pro" or nobody does. I'm afraid you are guilty of a classic hypocrisy move... one definition for me, and one for thee. When the components you might wish to upgrade (RAM, HDD, CPU, GPU) are soldered to the board, I'm afraid you cannot claim that system to be professional in any way... You might get away with "Prosumer", but not "Professional".
    Okay, I'll bite. What's Apple's definition of "Pro" then? Show me where they codified it? Apple uses "Pro" as nothing more than a marketing term, and never has applied a classification to what makes one product pro and one not.

    Upgrading components is in utterly no way the definition of "Pro." That may be YOUR definition, but it means you're calling Disney, Pixar, NASA, IBM, and most of the rest of the market not pro because they don't crack the cases open -- and never have, even when the door folded down. You really don't have any room to call somebody else a hypocrite in this matter.
    It's not just about not being able to upgrade. Components fail. Apple hardware is no less susceptible to this than other hardware. If you can't upgrade the SDD, then you certainly can't repair it. Which begs the question: What happens when parts fail? Do these devices need to be sent back to Apple or taken to an Apple authorized repair facility?
    I don’t think I understand the question fully. If they fail, then yes. That also has no bearing on “pro” though.
    My comment had less to do with the Pro vs. Not-Pro debate. I honestly have no opinion there, since each person's definition of "Pro" is bound to vary considerably. 

    I'm more or less just thinking about how these companies would possibly use a device like this without repairability (if that's even a word) .If you have a farm of these, some component is bound to fail. It's just the reality of electronics--no matter the quality of the components that make up the electronics. The companies you mentioned never crack them open at all? Not even to make repairs? I've built out data centers. Stuff breaks. And rather than be down a server, I can just pop in new components and have my downed server back up and running in a few hours. We keep spares of certain types of hardware--RAM, hard drives, CPUs. It's not an option with a device like this. You just have to wait for it to get repaired, do without, or keep spare computers around. 
    If you have built server farms and have repair experience, then you are able to upgrade also the new Mac Mini’s SSD. It is your job to figure out how. You cannot expect the same from all Apple customers. Apple doesn’t build computers for you and the ones like you, it build computers for general public. On the other hand, we are no more in the “plug and pray” era, those tightly integrated devices cannot be repaired using a   mere how-to sheet, this is a matter of a very valuable expertise, training, talent and refined personal taste. You cannot expect that from people who get OCD when they face a new version of a stupid keyboard.
    Um no one force apple to say this machine would be directed to pros. Which they did. And Pros and power users and enthusiasts all want user upgradable storage.  Because 2 years from now a 4TB SSD stick will cost nothing and it's wasteful to then need to toss out an entire machine because it doesnt offer enough storage. Or the other option is to have a rats nest of drives cables ala the oh-so-successful trashcan mac. Yea great choices for the enthusiats.  Way to show you care.
    If 2 years from now a 4 TB SSD stick will cost nothing then so a Thunderbolt external storage will be, and no one will toss out the entire machine, calm down...
    Right so screw the people that need internal storage. Viva la snake pit attached drive bricks. People that need embedded solutions, lets begrudge them. There’s only one true way. Rats nests of external storage. Again, look to the trash can Mac for an example of that raging success. A success so great, yet apple had to admit it was a failure. 
    How do you embed those “drive bricks” and “rats nets” into a Mac Mini enclosure? Stop dreaming, if people need those they’ll be external, obviously. If you dream of an enclosure as big as to enclose all of your fauna then you’re on the wrong thread, this thread is related to Mac Mini.
    There's an argument to made that there's no point in the Mac being "mini" if it requires an assortment of external peripherals to make it useful. Most external storage systems are bigger than the computer. Same with graphics accelerators like the Blackmagic. Doesn't that make the size of the computer itself pretty much irrelevant?

    How would the enjoyment or utility of a Mac in this class be adversely affected by making it twice as big? Or even three or four times as big, like the size of a small RAID enclosure? If that meant quieter operation, better thermal control, room for internal storage, and more flexibility in the components Apple can design around (like discrete graphics and/or more powerful CPUs), wouldn't that be grounds for making it bigger?

    I'm not saying that I'd prefer a bigger enclosure, I don't really care very much, I'm just saying it doesn't really NEED to be tiny. It just needs to be small enough to fit comfortably in the majority of use settings. Making it bigger wouldn't deter me from buying one.
    What folks are STILL whining about a decade and a half later is that Apple stopped making affordable towers when they dropped the MDD G4 machines in 2004.  

    They could make it a little larger but if they solved the thermal issues there’s no reason to.  With 2x airflow it’s likely fine.

    So it’s useless whining about something Apple has shown its not going to do.  We now have a headless iMac that costs pretty much exactly like an iMac (within $50 or so) without the screen. It’s not “overpriced”.  It’s not “underpowered”. And it’s designed like every other fucking Mac out there with soldered parts, adhesives and limited user upgrades.  

    People just need to GET OVER IT.  15 years of whining about how Apple cheats users, overcharges them and don’t give them what they want is enough for everyone else to get tired of it and tell these losers to buy a PC.   They aren the losers because of what they want but because they stay with a vendor that they think has been abusing them for over a decade.  Especially the dimwitted tools that start thier whining with “Ive owned a Mac ever since the original and Steve wouldn’t blah blah blah”.  Holy shit...that was an AIO  that if Steve could have gotten away with gluing shut to keep users out he would have.

    Apple isn’t going to build it.  Move the fuck on.  HP makes a great little box. The intel NUCs are nice little boxes.  There’s lots of options in 2018 and win10 is a decent OS.
Sign In or Register to comment.