Apple's powerful new Mac mini perfectly suits the 'Pro' market, yet the complaints have al...

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  • Reply 121 of 189
    StayPuftZombieStayPuftZombie Posts: 33unconfirmed, member
    This is a hostile, lopsided article that fails to understand users needs.

    I am no Mac Mini enthusiast or buyer, but I can relate to the user’s arguments of a reasonably cost effective Mac for those who aren’t seeking portability and who already own a monitor, keyboard etc. For Apple to slap them with such high prices is not going to go well. There should’ve been a well configured option for $499, then charge whatever  for the pro. They sure know how to pull off such options for the iPad. 

    Agreed. It's an apologist article. First that the storage is not upgradable means it clearly is NOT for many professionals, much less enthusiasts. Remember them. Enthusiasts? That saved the company. Power users, them?

    It so disingenuously pulls out the corpse/strawman of SATA speeds compared to the non-upgradable storage, employing the fallacious premise that it is one or the other, and COMPLETELY ignoring that any NVME stick can get 3000-3500MB/sec speeds as well. https://www.techradar.com/news/adatas-newest-nvme-ssd-promises-3500mbs-reads-for-less ;

    So if they really cared, they could have slapped in an NVMe slot, and not tied the drive via apple's drive copy protection scheme T2 chip. It's down right insulting to the intelligence of the readership here.

    On top of it selling a 2TB non upgradable "upgrade" for $1000, outright gouging its users, or $3200 for a MacBook Pro upgrade when 7.6TB SSDs go for under $1500. https://www.amazon.com/Micron-MTFDDAK7T6TDC-1AT1ZABYY-64-layer-Million-Industry/dp/B07BJ75JN1 And 2TB sticks (not upgrades from the insultingly small 128GB of storage) go for under $600. https://www.newegg.com/Product/Product.aspx?Item=9SIA12K7CW7654&ignorebbr=1&nm_mc=KNC-GoogleMKP-PC&cm_mmc=KNC-GoogleMKP-PC-_-pla-_-Solid+State+Disk-_-9SIA12K7CW7654&gclid=EAIaIQobChMIjKD1leex3gIVQz0MCh0Vvg0VEAkYAyABEgKzYPD_BwE&gclsrc=aw.ds
    edited October 31
  • Reply 122 of 189
    StayPuftZombieStayPuftZombie Posts: 33unconfirmed, member
    This is a hostile, lopsided article that fails to understand users needs.

    I am no Mac Mini enthusiast or buyer, but I can relate to the user’s arguments of a reasonably cost effective Mac for those who aren’t seeking portability and who already own a monitor, keyboard etc. For Apple to slap them with such high prices is not going to go well. There should’ve been a well configured option for $499, then charge whatever  for the pro. They sure know how to pull off such options for the iPad. 
    Pot/kettle situation, here.
    Way to get that totally substantive response in there. After all, if they dont agree with you, they must be wrong. ::eye roll::

    I look forward to your article defending Angela's presentation, which was a total disaster making the disaster Gill A. mac world seem like a welcome respite, on features of the store that predate her, for what at least seemed like a presentation that longer than what Steve Jobs did for the actual introduction of the Apple Store. Total waste of time but doesnt fit the narrative on here on just how awesome she is...

    edited October 31
  • Reply 123 of 189
    tylersdad said:
    tylersdad said:
    d3bug said:
    I'm sorry Mr Gallagher and Mr. Wuerthele, but you cannot redefine what "Pro" means just for Apple. Everyone abides by the same definition of "Pro" or nobody does. I'm afraid you are guilty of a classic hypocrisy move... one definition for me, and one for thee. When the components you might wish to upgrade (RAM, HDD, CPU, GPU) are soldered to the board, I'm afraid you cannot claim that system to be professional in any way... You might get away with "Prosumer", but not "Professional".
    Okay, I'll bite. What's Apple's definition of "Pro" then? Show me where they codified it? Apple uses "Pro" as nothing more than a marketing term, and never has applied a classification to what makes one product pro and one not.

    Upgrading components is in utterly no way the definition of "Pro." That may be YOUR definition, but it means you're calling Disney, Pixar, NASA, IBM, and most of the rest of the market not pro because they don't crack the cases open -- and never have, even when the door folded down. You really don't have any room to call somebody else a hypocrite in this matter.
    It's not just about not being able to upgrade. Components fail. Apple hardware is no less susceptible to this than other hardware. If you can't upgrade the SDD, then you certainly can't repair it. Which begs the question: What happens when parts fail? Do these devices need to be sent back to Apple or taken to an Apple authorized repair facility?
    I don’t think I understand the question fully. If they fail, then yes. That also has no bearing on “pro” though.
    My comment had less to do with the Pro vs. Not-Pro debate. I honestly have no opinion there, since each person's definition of "Pro" is bound to vary considerably. 

    I'm more or less just thinking about how these companies would possibly use a device like this without repairability (if that's even a word) .If you have a farm of these, some component is bound to fail. It's just the reality of electronics--no matter the quality of the components that make up the electronics. The companies you mentioned never crack them open at all? Not even to make repairs? I've built out data centers. Stuff breaks. And rather than be down a server, I can just pop in new components and have my downed server back up and running in a few hours. We keep spares of certain types of hardware--RAM, hard drives, CPUs. It's not an option with a device like this. You just have to wait for it to get repaired, do without, or keep spare computers around. 
    If you have built server farms and have repair experience, then you are able to upgrade also the new Mac Mini’s SSD. It is your job to figure out how. You cannot expect the same from all Apple customers. Apple doesn’t build computers for you and the ones like you, it builds computers for general public. On the other hand, we are no more in the “plug and pray” era, those tightly integrated devices cannot be repaired using a   mere how-to sheet, this is a matter of a very valuable expertise, training, talent and refined personal taste. You cannot expect that from people who get OCD when they face a new version of a stupid keyboard.
    edited October 31
  • Reply 124 of 189
    StayPuftZombieStayPuftZombie Posts: 33unconfirmed, member
    tylersdad said:
    tylersdad said:
    d3bug said:
    I'm sorry Mr Gallagher and Mr. Wuerthele, but you cannot redefine what "Pro" means just for Apple. Everyone abides by the same definition of "Pro" or nobody does. I'm afraid you are guilty of a classic hypocrisy move... one definition for me, and one for thee. When the components you might wish to upgrade (RAM, HDD, CPU, GPU) are soldered to the board, I'm afraid you cannot claim that system to be professional in any way... You might get away with "Prosumer", but not "Professional".
    Okay, I'll bite. What's Apple's definition of "Pro" then? Show me where they codified it? Apple uses "Pro" as nothing more than a marketing term, and never has applied a classification to what makes one product pro and one not.

    Upgrading components is in utterly no way the definition of "Pro." That may be YOUR definition, but it means you're calling Disney, Pixar, NASA, IBM, and most of the rest of the market not pro because they don't crack the cases open -- and never have, even when the door folded down. You really don't have any room to call somebody else a hypocrite in this matter.
    It's not just about not being able to upgrade. Components fail. Apple hardware is no less susceptible to this than other hardware. If you can't upgrade the SDD, then you certainly can't repair it. Which begs the question: What happens when parts fail? Do these devices need to be sent back to Apple or taken to an Apple authorized repair facility?
    I don’t think I understand the question fully. If they fail, then yes. That also has no bearing on “pro” though.
    My comment had less to do with the Pro vs. Not-Pro debate. I honestly have no opinion there, since each person's definition of "Pro" is bound to vary considerably. 

    I'm more or less just thinking about how these companies would possibly use a device like this without repairability (if that's even a word) .If you have a farm of these, some component is bound to fail. It's just the reality of electronics--no matter the quality of the components that make up the electronics. The companies you mentioned never crack them open at all? Not even to make repairs? I've built out data centers. Stuff breaks. And rather than be down a server, I can just pop in new components and have my downed server back up and running in a few hours. We keep spares of certain types of hardware--RAM, hard drives, CPUs. It's not an option with a device like this. You just have to wait for it to get repaired, do without, or keep spare computers around. 
    If you have built server farms and have repair experience, then you are able to upgrade also the new Mac Mini’s SSD. It is your job to figure out how. You cannot expect the same from all Apple customers. Apple doesn’t build computers for you and the ones like you, it build computers for general public. On the other hand, we are no more in the “plug and pray” era, those tightly integrated devices cannot be repaired using a   mere how-to sheet, this is a matter of a very valuable expertise, training, talent and refined personal taste. You cannot expect that from people who get OCD when they face a new version of a stupid keyboard.
    Um no one force apple to say this machine would be directed to pros. Which they did. And Pros and power users and enthusiasts all want user upgradable storage.  Because 2 years from now a 4TB SSD stick will cost nothing and it's wasteful to then need to toss out an entire machine because it doesnt offer enough storage. Or the other option is to have a rats nest of drives cables ala the oh-so-successful trashcan mac. Yea great choices for the enthusiats.  Way to show you care.

    They had all the time in the world, and all they did was slap in current components in the same old case and show they dont give a damn about pros/enthusiasts/power users, and show they do care on gouging on storage prices and using their customers like money mules.
    edited October 31 docno42tylersdad
  • Reply 125 of 189
    StayPuftZombieStayPuftZombie Posts: 33unconfirmed, member
    Mac Mini processing minimum four threads in parallel is what many people need (I do) and Pro is for those who need powerful processing of media with large or multiple large projects. If you do not know difference that means you spent too much time on your mobile device moving between screens and not understanding that work on desktop is not on swiching tabs ior screens, but processing many tasks while seeing all the progress within multiple applications or projects. Work as professional and you will learn those basics. That is also why we use multpile large screens (not for fancy picture, but for amount of information our brain digests from different sources in parelle and not in sequential fashion). If you do not do this then do not bother, but then do not ask questions because you will never understand. If you worked on 4-10 projects at the same time you are that professional. Mac Mini is just powerful for fun and minor work. I finally see that Apple brought nice computer I need. However pros that we run in the shop need something better than this so Mac Pro is stilll needed for that work.
    Your gatekeeping of the "pro" title continues to be ludicrous. It's great that you understand what you need, but applying it to an entire class of users is pretty insulting, and not warranted.
    LOL. But you. You. You totally know what pros are.  He doesn't. But you do. You're the one with the keys to the definition. Sure. Sure.
  • Reply 126 of 189
    StayPuftZombieStayPuftZombie Posts: 33unconfirmed, member
    jtrdfw said:
    I will never understand the delusion these articles promote. If you want to understand the complaints then join the rest of the damn world. Apple - at best - is heinously price gouging for off the shelf components you can see the prices of (and buy) yourself. These articles not only try to cover up this behavior but they convince a few others that all is well and this is how it should be. We need competitors. Healthy competitors. Apple has the money to be that, but its customer base and especially the vocal supporters like this prevent that from ever happening.
    You're conflating issues. You have some points here, but this isn't even close to what the article is talking about.
    Sure that other readers see it that way, meh, who cares what we think, you know what we should think better than we do.
  • Reply 127 of 189
    StayPuftZombieStayPuftZombie Posts: 33unconfirmed, member
    d3bug said:
    I'm sorry Mr Gallagher and Mr. Wuerthele, but you cannot redefine what "Pro" means just for Apple. Everyone abides by the same definition of "Pro" or nobody does. I'm afraid you are guilty of a classic hypocrisy move... one definition for me, and one for thee. When the components you might wish to upgrade (RAM, HDD, CPU, GPU) are soldered to the board, I'm afraid you cannot claim that system to be professional in any way... You might get away with "Prosumer", but not "Professional".
    Okay, I'll bite. What's Apple's definition of "Pro" then? Show me where they codified it? Apple uses "Pro" as nothing more than a marketing term, and never has applied a classification to what makes one product pro and one not.

    Upgrading components is in utterly no way the definition of "Pro." That may be YOUR definition, but it means you're calling Disney, Pixar, NASA, IBM, and most of the rest of the market not pro because they don't crack the cases open -- and never have, even when the door folded down. You really don't have any room to call somebody else a hypocrite in this matter.

    Sure, pros hate the ability to upgrade. ::eye roll:: They have traditionally just loved everything being totally non upgradable, but better yet, doing upgrades through snake pits of external boxes and cables. See the trashcan mac for an example of success.  ::eyeroll::
  • Reply 128 of 189
    zoetmbzoetmb Posts: 2,350member
    Bar said:
    All the announcements were pretty meh to be honest. Wasn’t anything anyone really needed. The only thing I took away from the event is that only affluent people are wanted as the Apple customer. They completely ignored the entry level market with the Mac mini. Won’t be able to recommend Apple products at all to the average individual anymore considering all that most people do is check email and watch cat videos. 
    People who only check email and watch cat videos don't even need a computer.   Their large-screen phone or pad will more than suffice, not that iPads are inexpensive.   And once one added a keyboard, monitor and mouse or trackpad, the Mini was never really inexpensive anyway.   
    StayPuftZombie
  • Reply 129 of 189
    Mike WuertheleMike Wuerthele Posts: 3,689administrator
    Mac Mini processing minimum four threads in parallel is what many people need (I do) and Pro is for those who need powerful processing of media with large or multiple large projects. If you do not know difference that means you spent too much time on your mobile device moving between screens and not understanding that work on desktop is not on swiching tabs ior screens, but processing many tasks while seeing all the progress within multiple applications or projects. Work as professional and you will learn those basics. That is also why we use multpile large screens (not for fancy picture, but for amount of information our brain digests from different sources in parelle and not in sequential fashion). If you do not do this then do not bother, but then do not ask questions because you will never understand. If you worked on 4-10 projects at the same time you are that professional. Mac Mini is just powerful for fun and minor work. I finally see that Apple brought nice computer I need. However pros that we run in the shop need something better than this so Mac Pro is stilll needed for that work.
    Your gatekeeping of the "pro" title continues to be ludicrous. It's great that you understand what you need, but applying it to an entire class of users is pretty insulting, and not warranted.
    LOL. But you. You. You totally know what pros are.  He doesn't. But you do. You're the one with the keys to the definition. Sure. Sure.
    Where in this piece did I define Pro? Where did I restrict it beyond "you make money on it?" Where am I gatekeeping like "only people who upgrade are pros" or other similar statements?

    Slow your roll and aggression and actually read what you're responding to before you type -- you've been warned at least once before on this. I am telling you again to read the commenting guidelines, which you clearly didn't do the first time I suggested you do so.

    Your dissent is fine. How you are expressing it is not.
    edited October 31
  • Reply 130 of 189
    Mike WuertheleMike Wuerthele Posts: 3,689administrator
    tylersdad said:
    tylersdad said:
    d3bug said:
    I'm sorry Mr Gallagher and Mr. Wuerthele, but you cannot redefine what "Pro" means just for Apple. Everyone abides by the same definition of "Pro" or nobody does. I'm afraid you are guilty of a classic hypocrisy move... one definition for me, and one for thee. When the components you might wish to upgrade (RAM, HDD, CPU, GPU) are soldered to the board, I'm afraid you cannot claim that system to be professional in any way... You might get away with "Prosumer", but not "Professional".
    Okay, I'll bite. What's Apple's definition of "Pro" then? Show me where they codified it? Apple uses "Pro" as nothing more than a marketing term, and never has applied a classification to what makes one product pro and one not.

    Upgrading components is in utterly no way the definition of "Pro." That may be YOUR definition, but it means you're calling Disney, Pixar, NASA, IBM, and most of the rest of the market not pro because they don't crack the cases open -- and never have, even when the door folded down. You really don't have any room to call somebody else a hypocrite in this matter.
    It's not just about not being able to upgrade. Components fail. Apple hardware is no less susceptible to this than other hardware. If you can't upgrade the SDD, then you certainly can't repair it. Which begs the question: What happens when parts fail? Do these devices need to be sent back to Apple or taken to an Apple authorized repair facility?
    I don’t think I understand the question fully. If they fail, then yes. That also has no bearing on “pro” though.
    My comment had less to do with the Pro vs. Not-Pro debate. I honestly have no opinion there, since each person's definition of "Pro" is bound to vary considerably. 

    I'm more or less just thinking about how these companies would possibly use a device like this without repairability (if that's even a word) .If you have a farm of these, some component is bound to fail. It's just the reality of electronics--no matter the quality of the components that make up the electronics. The companies you mentioned never crack them open at all? Not even to make repairs? I've built out data centers. Stuff breaks. And rather than be down a server, I can just pop in new components and have my downed server back up and running in a few hours. We keep spares of certain types of hardware--RAM, hard drives, CPUs. It's not an option with a device like this. You just have to wait for it to get repaired, do without, or keep spare computers around. 
    Oh, I understand now, thanks for the clarification. 

    If, say, Minicolo decided to keep spare parts on hand, it would be RAM and motherboards which include the processor and storage. However, a better solution -- and one that data centers are increasingly taking -- is overprovisioning so capacity lost by a downed unit is taken over by the extra. This is the "spare computers" part that you're talking about. I think you know this, though.

    Lost in this particular conversation, is there are solid numbers that clearly say that this kind of approach with a minimum of replaceable components and the engineering associated with that is cutting way, way down on failure rate percentages. Small comfort for infant failures, or for those machines that fail in a large fleet, though.

    When the above listed companies have computers fail, they use something similar to JAMF to load software and have IT drop off a new computer. The dead computer has basic troubleshooting done, and it is generally sent to an Apple (or IBM, or Dell) depot for repair, or they call an on-site tech to repair it as part of the terms of the contract.

    Your type of repair that you're talking about, I did for many years. This is a dying art, and will continue to get rarer and rarer, I'm afraid.

    In all things electronics, if something is mission-critical, having a single point of failure even that can be repaired in just a few hours or up to a day is unacceptable. I don't make a ton of money, but I have a spare to get work done in the case this machine bites it.


    edited October 31 tmay
  • Reply 131 of 189
    KITAKITA Posts: 146member
    Posted this comparison before, but I'll post it again here:

    Mac Mini 2018 - $1,798

    - macOS
    - Intel Core i7-8700 (6 core)
    - Intel UHD Graphics 630
    - 16 GB DDR4
    - 512 GB MLC SSD
    - AppleCare+ (3 years)

    Ports
    - 1x Ethernet
    - 4x Thunderbolt 3
    - 1x HDMI 2.0
    - 2x USB-A 3.0
    - 1x 3.5 mm

    Upgradeable parts
    - RAM - 2 slots


    HP Z2 Mini G4 - $1,826

    - Windows / Linux
    - Intel Xeon E-2126G (6 core)
    - NVIDIA Quadro P1000 4 GB GDDR5
    - 16 GB ECC DDR4
    - 512 GB TLC SSD
    - Onsite warranty (3 years)

    Ports
    - 1x Ethernet
    - 1x Thunderbolt 3
    - 3x DisplayPort 1.2
    - 4x USB-A 3.0
    - 2x USB-C 3.1 Gen2
    - 1x 3.5 mm

    Upgradeable parts
    - CPU - 1 socket
    - RAM - 2 slots
    - SSD - M.2
    - HDD - SATA
    - WiFi - M.2
    - dGPU - 1 slot

    It's clear the Mac Mini isn't competing with what might be regarded as a "pro" device, but it's still a very useful piece of kit for when macOS is required.
    SpamSandwich
  • Reply 132 of 189
    zenwaves said:
    There's no way could I complain. I have a 2012 Mac Mini Server which is my media center (basically iTunes & Plex Server).

    Every single click, whether it's a Finder window or App, results in a two-minute wait while the beach ball spins...

    The only thing I'll miss are the dual 1TB internal drives!

    I have a 2014 mini in the living room strictly as an iTunes source (because Apple won't let us just plug in a @#$%!!! external drive to the Apple TV, instead requiring a full-on computer just to feed it content... but I digress...).

    Over a period of days it just gradually gets slower and slower and slower... I don't why, but a reboot spruces it up again. Maybe you just need to restart yours every few days.
  • Reply 133 of 189
    StayPuftZombieStayPuftZombie Posts: 33unconfirmed, member
    Mac Mini processing minimum four threads in parallel is what many people need (I do) and Pro is for those who need powerful processing of media with large or multiple large projects. If you do not know difference that means you spent too much time on your mobile device moving between screens and not understanding that work on desktop is not on swiching tabs ior screens, but processing many tasks while seeing all the progress within multiple applications or projects. Work as professional and you will learn those basics. That is also why we use multpile large screens (not for fancy picture, but for amount of information our brain digests from different sources in parelle and not in sequential fashion). If you do not do this then do not bother, but then do not ask questions because you will never understand. If you worked on 4-10 projects at the same time you are that professional. Mac Mini is just powerful for fun and minor work. I finally see that Apple brought nice computer I need. However pros that we run in the shop need something better than this so Mac Pro is stilll needed for that work.
    Your gatekeeping of the "pro" title continues to be ludicrous. It's great that you understand what you need, but applying it to an entire class of users is pretty insulting, and not warranted.
    LOL. But you. You. You totally know what pros are.  He doesn't. But you do. You're the one with the keys to the definition. Sure. Sure.
    Where in this piece did I define Pro? Where did I restrict it beyond "you make money on it?" Where am I gatekeeping like "only people who upgrade are pros" or other similar statements?

    Slow your roll and aggression and actually read what you're responding to before you type -- you've been warned at least once before on this. I am telling you again to read the commenting guidelines, which you clearly didn't do the first time I suggested you do so.

    Your dissent is fine. How you are expressing it is not.
    Sure sure. Apparently "agression" is anything that you disagree with. Sure sure.

    That your title "Apple's powerful new Mac mini perfectly suits the 'Pro' market, yet the complaints have already started" is negatively cast on those complaining because apparently you know what perfectly suits the "Pro market" is besides the point. That's not an 'aggressive' belittling of those that just dont know what perfecatly suits the Pro market like youself.

    That you right above in this thread, criticize maciekskontakt's sense of the professional market, and you deem that if "you worked on 4-10 projects at the same time you are that professional" espousing your mastery of what a "Pro" is. That's fine. I see how that works.
    docno42
  • Reply 134 of 189
    d3bug said:
    I'm sorry Mr Gallagher and Mr. Wuerthele, but you cannot redefine what "Pro" means just for Apple. Everyone abides by the same definition of "Pro" or nobody does. I'm afraid you are guilty of a classic hypocrisy move... one definition for me, and one for thee. When the components you might wish to upgrade (RAM, HDD, CPU, GPU) are soldered to the board, I'm afraid you cannot claim that system to be professional in any way... You might get away with "Prosumer", but not "Professional".
    Okay, I'll bite. What's Apple's definition of "Pro" then? Show me where they codified it? Apple uses "Pro" as nothing more than a marketing term, and never has applied a classification to what makes one product pro and one not.

    Upgrading components is in utterly no way the definition of "Pro." That may be YOUR definition, but it means you're calling Disney, Pixar, NASA, IBM, and most of the rest of the market not pro because they don't crack the cases open -- and never have, even when the door folded down. You really don't have any room to call somebody else a hypocrite in this matter.

    Sure, pros hate the ability to upgrade. ::eye roll:: They have traditionally just loved everything being totally non upgradable, but better yet, doing upgrades through snake pits of external boxes and cables. See the trashcan mac for an example of success.  ::eyeroll::
    I don't know how you use your Mac(s) and I don't begrudge you your opinion or preferences, but I thought it worth mentioning that at least some of us feel differently.

    I actually like the quasi-"modular" approach of the 2013 Mac Pro and the new Mac mini. My external storage can be retained or upgraded independent of the computer itself, which can also be swapped out without affecting the storage setup. Devices can be moved from machine to machine. Configurations can be more easily modified.

    They're the opposite of the iMac. I like that.
  • Reply 135 of 189
    Mike WuertheleMike Wuerthele Posts: 3,689administrator
    Mac Mini processing minimum four threads in parallel is what many people need (I do) and Pro is for those who need powerful processing of media with large or multiple large projects. If you do not know difference that means you spent too much time on your mobile device moving between screens and not understanding that work on desktop is not on swiching tabs ior screens, but processing many tasks while seeing all the progress within multiple applications or projects. Work as professional and you will learn those basics. That is also why we use multpile large screens (not for fancy picture, but for amount of information our brain digests from different sources in parelle and not in sequential fashion). If you do not do this then do not bother, but then do not ask questions because you will never understand. If you worked on 4-10 projects at the same time you are that professional. Mac Mini is just powerful for fun and minor work. I finally see that Apple brought nice computer I need. However pros that we run in the shop need something better than this so Mac Pro is stilll needed for that work.
    Your gatekeeping of the "pro" title continues to be ludicrous. It's great that you understand what you need, but applying it to an entire class of users is pretty insulting, and not warranted.
    LOL. But you. You. You totally know what pros are.  He doesn't. But you do. You're the one with the keys to the definition. Sure. Sure.
    Where in this piece did I define Pro? Where did I restrict it beyond "you make money on it?" Where am I gatekeeping like "only people who upgrade are pros" or other similar statements?

    Slow your roll and aggression and actually read what you're responding to before you type -- you've been warned at least once before on this. I am telling you again to read the commenting guidelines, which you clearly didn't do the first time I suggested you do so.

    Your dissent is fine. How you are expressing it is not.
    Sure sure. Apparently "agression" is anything that you disagree with. Sure sure.

    That your title "Apple's powerful new Mac mini perfectly suits the 'Pro' market, yet the complaints have already started" is negatively cast on those complaining because apparently you know what perfectly suits the "Pro market" is besides the point. That's not an 'aggressive' belittling of those that just dont know what perfecatly suits the Pro market like youself.

    That you right above in this thread, criticize maciekskontakt's sense of the professional market, and you deem that if "you worked on 4-10 projects at the same time you are that professional" espousing your mastery of what a "Pro" is. That's fine. I see how that works.
    You continue to interpret how you want, I guess. And, I don’t believe you see how anything works. You seem to be upset that I’d rather the marketing term “pro” not be gate-kept, which makes no sense.

    Be sure to read those commenting guidelines. You’re out of warnings.
    edited October 31
  • Reply 136 of 189
    polymnia said:
    rcfa said:
    The one thing that is missing: ECC RAM, otherwise, particularly in combination with an eGPU, this is a killer machine.
    MacPro feature. 
    Even the cheapest of the cheapest AMD processors (which are both faster and use less power than intel processors in their respective use-cases they have been designed for, while being offered at a lower price) support ECC.

    MacPro feature my ass.
    MacPro feature.
  • Reply 137 of 189
    StayPuftZombieStayPuftZombie Posts: 33unconfirmed, member
    d3bug said:
    I'm sorry Mr Gallagher and Mr. Wuerthele, but you cannot redefine what "Pro" means just for Apple. Everyone abides by the same definition of "Pro" or nobody does. I'm afraid you are guilty of a classic hypocrisy move... one definition for me, and one for thee. When the components you might wish to upgrade (RAM, HDD, CPU, GPU) are soldered to the board, I'm afraid you cannot claim that system to be professional in any way... You might get away with "Prosumer", but not "Professional".
    Okay, I'll bite. What's Apple's definition of "Pro" then? Show me where they codified it? Apple uses "Pro" as nothing more than a marketing term, and never has applied a classification to what makes one product pro and one not.

    Upgrading components is in utterly no way the definition of "Pro." That may be YOUR definition, but it means you're calling Disney, Pixar, NASA, IBM, and most of the rest of the market not pro because they don't crack the cases open -- and never have, even when the door folded down. You really don't have any room to call somebody else a hypocrite in this matter.

    Sure, pros hate the ability to upgrade. ::eye roll:: They have traditionally just loved everything being totally non upgradable, but better yet, doing upgrades through snake pits of external boxes and cables. See the trashcan mac for an example of success.  ::eyeroll::
    I don't know how you use your Mac(s) and I don't begrudge you your opinion or preferences, but I thought it worth mentioning that at least some of us feel differently.

    I actually like the quasi-"modular" approach of the 2013 Mac Pro and the new Mac mini. My external storage can be retained or upgraded independent of the computer itself, which can also be swapped out without affecting the storage setup. Devices can be moved from machine to machine. Configurations can be more easily modified.

    They're the opposite of the iMac. I like that.
    Nothing would stop you from having that if Apple also put in an NVMe slot that made user storage upgradable internally.  A lot of mac mini applications involve having it be encapsulated into a confined area and not having an internal user upgradable storage area is limiting.  

    I do not begrudge those that want dangling storage, but you have that. For those that want the ability to upgrade internal storage, we can look to the HP mini Z that not only has Xeons, but 2 forms of internal user upgradable storage (sata and NVMe sticks).

    So in short, not only do I not begrudge your use, which makes sense for many applications (and I agree with your points on the modularity of the storage separated from the hardware corpus), congratulations, you have what you want. On the other hand, those that need to have flexibility in internal storage are quite begrudged in practice. Apple's admitting failure on the traschcan mac is evidence that quite a few were begrudged. 
    edited October 31
  • Reply 138 of 189
    I like this new mini! Like someone else said earlier in the thread, the Mac Pro is probably overkill for many users and thus not a great value. The new mini provides a great alternative -- a "capable" machine at a more manageable price point.

    I'm annoyed to the point of spitting over the prices Apple is charging for memory and storage upgrades -- honestly Apple, WTF?! -- but both can be mitigated, the former with third-party modules and the latter with external storage. I'd rather have lots of NVMe inside the computer for convenience, but I won't let Apple's bizarre, insulting, greedy, alienating, bloody annoying upgrade policies ruin my enjoyment of what it a really great new product.
  • Reply 139 of 189
    I'm a pro, and the minis do not satisfy me at all. 
    They cost roughly the price of a real mac pro.
    They force me to buy an external enclosure for expanded storage.
    They force me to buy an external enclosure for PCI cards.
    Why do I care if the mini is small, if the whole package is multiple boxes connected by multiple wires?
    Why do I care if the mini is elegantly designed if the whole package is a salad of devices with different form factors made by different companies?
    This is not "modular." The classic Mac Pro is modular. This is an incomplete part of a kit. 
    You are looking for the MacPro. Give them some more time.
  • Reply 140 of 189
    tylersdad said:
    tylersdad said:
    d3bug said:
    I'm sorry Mr Gallagher and Mr. Wuerthele, but you cannot redefine what "Pro" means just for Apple. Everyone abides by the same definition of "Pro" or nobody does. I'm afraid you are guilty of a classic hypocrisy move... one definition for me, and one for thee. When the components you might wish to upgrade (RAM, HDD, CPU, GPU) are soldered to the board, I'm afraid you cannot claim that system to be professional in any way... You might get away with "Prosumer", but not "Professional".
    Okay, I'll bite. What's Apple's definition of "Pro" then? Show me where they codified it? Apple uses "Pro" as nothing more than a marketing term, and never has applied a classification to what makes one product pro and one not.

    Upgrading components is in utterly no way the definition of "Pro." That may be YOUR definition, but it means you're calling Disney, Pixar, NASA, IBM, and most of the rest of the market not pro because they don't crack the cases open -- and never have, even when the door folded down. You really don't have any room to call somebody else a hypocrite in this matter.
    It's not just about not being able to upgrade. Components fail. Apple hardware is no less susceptible to this than other hardware. If you can't upgrade the SDD, then you certainly can't repair it. Which begs the question: What happens when parts fail? Do these devices need to be sent back to Apple or taken to an Apple authorized repair facility?
    I don’t think I understand the question fully. If they fail, then yes. That also has no bearing on “pro” though.
    My comment had less to do with the Pro vs. Not-Pro debate. I honestly have no opinion there, since each person's definition of "Pro" is bound to vary considerably. 

    I'm more or less just thinking about how these companies would possibly use a device like this without repairability (if that's even a word) .If you have a farm of these, some component is bound to fail. It's just the reality of electronics--no matter the quality of the components that make up the electronics. The companies you mentioned never crack them open at all? Not even to make repairs? I've built out data centers. Stuff breaks. And rather than be down a server, I can just pop in new components and have my downed server back up and running in a few hours. We keep spares of certain types of hardware--RAM, hard drives, CPUs. It's not an option with a device like this. You just have to wait for it to get repaired, do without, or keep spare computers around. 
    If you have built server farms and have repair experience, then you are able to upgrade also the new Mac Mini’s SSD. It is your job to figure out how. You cannot expect the same from all Apple customers. Apple doesn’t build computers for you and the ones like you, it build computers for general public. On the other hand, we are no more in the “plug and pray” era, those tightly integrated devices cannot be repaired using a   mere how-to sheet, this is a matter of a very valuable expertise, training, talent and refined personal taste. You cannot expect that from people who get OCD when they face a new version of a stupid keyboard.
    Um no one force apple to say this machine would be directed to pros. Which they did. And Pros and power users and enthusiasts all want user upgradable storage.  Because 2 years from now a 4TB SSD stick will cost nothing and it's wasteful to then need to toss out an entire machine because it doesnt offer enough storage. Or the other option is to have a rats nest of drives cables ala the oh-so-successful trashcan mac. Yea great choices for the enthusiats.  Way to show you care.
    If 2 years from now a 4 TB SSD stick will cost nothing then so a Thunderbolt external storage will be, and no one will toss out the entire machine, calm down...
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