Benchmarked: Razer Blade Stealth versus 13-inch MacBook Pro with function keys

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Comments

  • Reply 81 of 105
    This comparison reminds me of the days when Phil would do a speed test on stage with the latest and greatest PC versus the Mac, and the Mac would always win.  It was a smack down.  

    I think the best thing we can do as a computer community is show Apple that they persistently come up short, and that engineers ought to actually focus on the best specs possible, rather than settling for average or bare minimum for a premium price point.  

    I'd love to see Phil out there again with a MacBook Pro trouncing the competition like they did in the old days.  Sadly, when all of the components are off the shelf compatible to every other manufacturer, Apple would have to make the conscious decision to spec out a laptop with that specifically in mind, and it's my opinion that Apple engineers have no plans to be the best in regard to performance.  

    I am aware that a critical component to functionality is the OS itself and Windows 10 has made significant improvements in stability from what I've read.  MacOS is stable, and functional, while I believe we're well past the days of seeing significant improvements and speed increases from one version of the OS to another.  Most of us run the latest version and it "just works", much to our daily contentment.  I feel the significant disparity is revealed in speed of workflow throughput.  We've seen 4k become the standard for video, and HEVC has proved a significant space saver while remaining visibly lossless to the average user, yet creating more work to be done by the CPU and GPU.  I have not seen a noticeable speed improvement with the change of filesystem to APFS either.   When we're seeing other laptops outperforming the MacBook Pro, it's not only a loss of pride in the brand we choose to spend our hard earned money on, it's also taking more time because the laptops we're offered by Apple Engineers are less capable than those by other manufacturers.  

    It has been my opinion, for several generations of Mac products, that Apple Engineers have cared significantly less about performance, and more about esthetics.  While Apple laptops look nice, they fall short in providing the best performance for their Prosumer users, which is truly unfortunate for those of us who refuse to leave the Mac ecosystem.  When the components of laptops are largely from the same vendors and assembled by other manufacturers, it's harder to differentiate them.  While I hope Apple persists in incorporating more of their own chips into their products, I am finding it difficult to imagine the day when Phil will be back out on that stage showing us the Mac trouncing the PC once again.  At least the Mac will look nice though.
    williamlondonelijahg
  • Reply 82 of 105
    saareksaarek Posts: 1,105member
    saarek said:
    macplusplus said:  Because that "staff" know how they will be ridiculed if they put the battery benchmark in the article. The battery life is most probably two hours or so, because a gaming laptop is expected to be used mostly plugged in. That one is a laptop for teens, who want it to carry their games alongside when hanging out with friends. Teens like that brand's flashy keyboards and mice too.
    Right on the money: it's specifically intended for gaming, so it isn't really a very good comparison to begin with. For example, how many people working in a typical corporate office that use PCs are going to be given a Razer Blade Stealth as their working laptop? I doubt that ever happens. They would get a PC model that was specifically intended for use as a working PC, not a gaming PC. 
    The HP Spectre probably would have been a better comparison. It's in the ultrabook class, like the MacBook Pro and, at least on paper, is a much better proposition.

    £1599 gets you Intel 8th Gen Core i7, 4K Display which is touch/pen enabled, 16GB Ram, 1TB SSD, supports USB C/Thunderbolt and USB A and even has 3 years warranty included -- and typical HP junk.

    £1599 for the Mac, well it gets you the old 2017 model with 8GB Ram, 7th Gen CPU, 256GB SSD and one year warranty, plus £50 back in your pocket - and Apple level quality, the MacOS and Apple Ecosystem.
    Here, fixed that for ya!
    Yes, new Apple MacBook level quality. Faulty keyboards, logic boards, SSD's, Thunderbolt ports, and speakers.

    The thing is people like you assume that anyone like me, who point out the faults and the recent price gouging of Apple, must be a Troll, or a windows fanboy, or that we are not well versed in Apple's past products and the faults that they too had.

    The truth is I love Apple, I am heavily invested in the Apple eco system and I am deeply troubled by what I perceive as recent missteps by Apple and the apparent lack of change of course by them. And importantly I am not alone.

    By heavily invested, let me clarify. In my household we have two iPhones (an iPhone 8 and an iPhone XS Max), an iPad, a MacBook Pro, a HomePod, an Apple TV, a Apple Watch and a 27" iMac. My loyalty to Apple runs around 13 years deep and I have converted one hell of a lot of people over the years, I should be on commission with the amount of product I havre shifted for them!

    But it's getting harder to recommend Apple. Their pricing is generally no longer fit for the average consumer or the education market. £1200 entry level for a laptop is just too much for most people, it's the same with the £800 for the Mac Mini.

    On top of the price hikes their reliability has gone through the floor, in good conscience how can I push someone to spend upwards of twice the price for something like the MacBook Pro when I know it has so many issues, issues that I and my family have already experienced.

    Mindlessly defend them if you want, but doing that will not help them improve.


    elijahg
  • Reply 83 of 105
    This comparison reminds me of the days when Phil would do a speed test on stage with the latest and greatest PC versus the Mac, and the Mac would always win.  It was a smack down.  

    I think the best thing we can do as a computer community is show Apple that they persistently come up short, and that engineers ought to actually focus on the best specs possible, rather than settling for average or bare minimum for a premium price point.  

    I'd love to see Phil out there again with a MacBook Pro trouncing the competition like they did in the old days.  Sadly, when all of the components are off the shelf compatible to every other manufacturer, Apple would have to make the conscious decision to spec out a laptop with that specifically in mind, and it's my opinion that Apple engineers have no plans to be the best in regard to performance.  

    I am aware that a critical component to functionality is the OS itself and Windows 10 has made significant improvements in stability from what I've read.  MacOS is stable, and functional, while I believe we're well past the days of seeing significant improvements and speed increases from one version of the OS to another.  Most of us run the latest version and it "just works", much to our daily contentment.  I feel the significant disparity is revealed in speed of workflow throughput.  We've seen 4k become the standard for video, and HEVC has proved a significant space saver while remaining visibly lossless to the average user, yet creating more work to be done by the CPU and GPU.  I have not seen a noticeable speed improvement with the change of filesystem to APFS either.   When we're seeing other laptops outperforming the MacBook Pro, it's not only a loss of pride in the brand we choose to spend our hard earned money on, it's also taking more time because the laptops we're offered by Apple Engineers are less capable than those by other manufacturers.  

    It has been my opinion, for several generations of Mac products, that Apple Engineers have cared significantly less about performance, and more about esthetics.  While Apple laptops look nice, they fall short in providing the best performance for their Prosumer users, which is truly unfortunate for those of us who refuse to leave the Mac ecosystem.  When the components of laptops are largely from the same vendors and assembled by other manufacturers, it's harder to differentiate them.  While I hope Apple persists in incorporating more of their own chips into their products, I am finding it difficult to imagine the day when Phil will be back out on that stage showing us the Mac trouncing the PC once again.  At least the Mac will look nice though.
    Not that I disagree with anything you said, but comparing MacOS to Windows only on the basis of stability, is only part of the equation:   MacOS is generally more user friendly and world's more secure.  For me, security is a major selling point.   (On the other hand, Windows has more "apps" available).

    And too:  Don't forget the entire Apple Ecosystem that simply doesn't exist in the world of Windows.   I love how my Apple Watch unlocks my MacBook and how my messages flow between my Watch, my phone and my MacBook - etc, etc, etc,....

    And, even on the strictly hardware basis:   Apple tends to provide products that go beyond simple glitzy technical features and instead fit the needs of the user.  It's what set Steve apart:   The blend of technical guru and artsy/humanities genius where he could blend the two to come up a product that was greater than the sum of its parts.  Apple continues to do it on their other products but has been falling off lately on their Mac line.  I have confidence that they'll get the mojo back (even if they stick to off the shelf components).
    brian greenwilliamlondonwatto_cobraelijahg
  • Reply 84 of 105
    saareksaarek Posts: 1,105member
    This comparison reminds me of the days when Phil would do a speed test on stage with the latest and greatest PC versus the Mac, and the Mac would always win.  It was a smack down.  

    I think the best thing we can do as a computer community is show Apple that they persistently come up short, and that engineers ought to actually focus on the best specs possible, rather than settling for average or bare minimum for a premium price point.  

    I'd love to see Phil out there again with a MacBook Pro trouncing the competition like they did in the old days.  Sadly, when all of the components are off the shelf compatible to every other manufacturer, Apple would have to make the conscious decision to spec out a laptop with that specifically in mind, and it's my opinion that Apple engineers have no plans to be the best in regard to performance.  

    I am aware that a critical component to functionality is the OS itself and Windows 10 has made significant improvements in stability from what I've read.  MacOS is stable, and functional, while I believe we're well past the days of seeing significant improvements and speed increases from one version of the OS to another.  Most of us run the latest version and it "just works", much to our daily contentment.  I feel the significant disparity is revealed in speed of workflow throughput.  We've seen 4k become the standard for video, and HEVC has proved a significant space saver while remaining visibly lossless to the average user, yet creating more work to be done by the CPU and GPU.  I have not seen a noticeable speed improvement with the change of filesystem to APFS either.   When we're seeing other laptops outperforming the MacBook Pro, it's not only a loss of pride in the brand we choose to spend our hard earned money on, it's also taking more time because the laptops we're offered by Apple Engineers are less capable than those by other manufacturers.  

    It has been my opinion, for several generations of Mac products, that Apple Engineers have cared significantly less about performance, and more about esthetics.  While Apple laptops look nice, they fall short in providing the best performance for their Prosumer users, which is truly unfortunate for those of us who refuse to leave the Mac ecosystem.  When the components of laptops are largely from the same vendors and assembled by other manufacturers, it's harder to differentiate them.  While I hope Apple persists in incorporating more of their own chips into their products, I am finding it difficult to imagine the day when Phil will be back out on that stage showing us the Mac trouncing the PC once again.  At least the Mac will look nice though.
    I think that once Apple releases their own A Series chips inside of a MacBook we will see benchmarks like that again. Intel is the new IBM when it comes to their CPU's, they just can't push the envelope at the moment.

    With regards to your other points about the engineering team. It stinks of what happened to Intel with the Pentium 4. The engineering team became secondary to the marketing team and had to build for headline Mhz ratings as that is how people largely judged computer performance. I still remember the excellent Mhz myth keynote presentation that Apple gave. Overall it backfired on Intel, their CPU's got smashed by AMD's Athlon and it took them years to recover with the excellent Intel Centrino architecture.

    Apple's latest MacBook's feel very much like the engineering team are no longer working in tandem with the design team, but rather are told "this is the design, make it fit". 
    williamlondon
  • Reply 85 of 105
    This comparison reminds me of the days when Phil would do a speed test on stage with the latest and greatest PC versus the Mac, and the Mac would always win.  It was a smack down.  

    I think the best thing we can do as a computer community is show Apple that they persistently come up short, and that engineers ought to actually focus on the best specs possible, rather than settling for average or bare minimum for a premium price point.  

    I'd love to see Phil out there again with a MacBook Pro trouncing the competition like they did in the old days.  Sadly, when all of the components are off the shelf compatible to every other manufacturer, Apple would have to make the conscious decision to spec out a laptop with that specifically in mind, and it's my opinion that Apple engineers have no plans to be the best in regard to performance.  

    I am aware that a critical component to functionality is the OS itself and Windows 10 has made significant improvements in stability from what I've read.  MacOS is stable, and functional, while I believe we're well past the days of seeing significant improvements and speed increases from one version of the OS to another.  Most of us run the latest version and it "just works", much to our daily contentment.  I feel the significant disparity is revealed in speed of workflow throughput.  We've seen 4k become the standard for video, and HEVC has proved a significant space saver while remaining visibly lossless to the average user, yet creating more work to be done by the CPU and GPU.  I have not seen a noticeable speed improvement with the change of filesystem to APFS either.   When we're seeing other laptops outperforming the MacBook Pro, it's not only a loss of pride in the brand we choose to spend our hard earned money on, it's also taking more time because the laptops we're offered by Apple Engineers are less capable than those by other manufacturers.  

    It has been my opinion, for several generations of Mac products, that Apple Engineers have cared significantly less about performance, and more about esthetics.  While Apple laptops look nice, they fall short in providing the best performance for their Prosumer users, which is truly unfortunate for those of us who refuse to leave the Mac ecosystem.  When the components of laptops are largely from the same vendors and assembled by other manufacturers, it's harder to differentiate them.  While I hope Apple persists in incorporating more of their own chips into their products, I am finding it difficult to imagine the day when Phil will be back out on that stage showing us the Mac trouncing the PC once again.  At least the Mac will look nice though.
    Not that I disagree with anything you said, but comparing MacOS to Windows only on the basis of stability, is only part of the equation:   MacOS is generally more user friendly and world's more secure.  For me, security is a major selling point.   (On the other hand, Windows has more "apps" available).

    And too:  Don't forget the entire Apple Ecosystem that simply doesn't exist in the world of Windows.   I love how my Apple Watch unlocks my MacBook and how my messages flow between my Watch, my phone and my MacBook - etc, etc, etc,....

    And, even on the strictly hardware basis:   Apple tends to provide products that go beyond simple glitzy technical features and instead fit the needs of the user.  It's what set Steve apart:   The blend of technical guru and artsy/humanities genius where he could blend the two to come up a product that was greater than the sum of its parts.  Apple continues to do it on their other products but has been falling off lately on their Mac line.  I have confidence that they'll get the mojo back (even if they stick to off the shelf components).
    I agree completely with what you've said, and I'm fully immersed in the Mac ecosystem.  My first Mac ran System 7.  My primary concern is, and this is purely my opinion, that Apple Engineers have chosen to choose less than the best components while choosing to embrace the esthetics of the form factor, be it desktop or laptop.  I have both.  

    I remain cautiously optimistic that Apple will somehow create a chip of its own specifically for those with video work.  If you would like to experience true pain, work with RED video sometime.  As it is, I find 4k video shot on an iPhone using HEVC to be taxing in FCP when, again in my opinion, the MBP ought to chew it up and spit it out without so much as breaking a sweat.  This has not been my experience.  Perhaps Apple ought to create a MBP with a different form factor specifically for those who do video work that will stress the system significantly more than the "typical" user in their day to day workflows.  As I see it, Apple Engineers are not interested in breaking from their absolutely-thin-is-best policy, and that, in my opinion, is truly unfortunate for all those who use their laptops for more than classroom work or boardroom presentations.  

    At this point, I'd be more than happy with Apple re-releasing the old G3 "Wallstreet" Powerbook form factor (mine still works), with all of the heat management to keep it cool for video editing.  I don't mind a thick laptop, and I don't mind a heavy laptop, especially if it's a beast using MacOS and kicking ass and taking names.  
    redgeminipawilliamlondonGeorgeBMacelijahg
  • Reply 86 of 105
    danvmdanvm Posts: 707member
    This comparison reminds me of the days when Phil would do a speed test on stage with the latest and greatest PC versus the Mac, and the Mac would always win.  It was a smack down.  

    I think the best thing we can do as a computer community is show Apple that they persistently come up short, and that engineers ought to actually focus on the best specs possible, rather than settling for average or bare minimum for a premium price point.  

    I'd love to see Phil out there again with a MacBook Pro trouncing the competition like they did in the old days.  Sadly, when all of the components are off the shelf compatible to every other manufacturer, Apple would have to make the conscious decision to spec out a laptop with that specifically in mind, and it's my opinion that Apple engineers have no plans to be the best in regard to performance.  

    I am aware that a critical component to functionality is the OS itself and Windows 10 has made significant improvements in stability from what I've read.  MacOS is stable, and functional, while I believe we're well past the days of seeing significant improvements and speed increases from one version of the OS to another.  Most of us run the latest version and it "just works", much to our daily contentment.  I feel the significant disparity is revealed in speed of workflow throughput.  We've seen 4k become the standard for video, and HEVC has proved a significant space saver while remaining visibly lossless to the average user, yet creating more work to be done by the CPU and GPU.  I have not seen a noticeable speed improvement with the change of filesystem to APFS either.   When we're seeing other laptops outperforming the MacBook Pro, it's not only a loss of pride in the brand we choose to spend our hard earned money on, it's also taking more time because the laptops we're offered by Apple Engineers are less capable than those by other manufacturers.  

    It has been my opinion, for several generations of Mac products, that Apple Engineers have cared significantly less about performance, and more about esthetics.  While Apple laptops look nice, they fall short in providing the best performance for their Prosumer users, which is truly unfortunate for those of us who refuse to leave the Mac ecosystem.  When the components of laptops are largely from the same vendors and assembled by other manufacturers, it's harder to differentiate them.  While I hope Apple persists in incorporating more of their own chips into their products, I am finding it difficult to imagine the day when Phil will be back out on that stage showing us the Mac trouncing the PC once again.  At least the Mac will look nice though.
    Not that I disagree with anything you said, but comparing MacOS to Windows only on the basis of stability, is only part of the equation:   MacOS is generally more user friendly and world's more secure.  For me, security is a major selling point.   (On the other hand, Windows has more "apps" available).

    How do you get to the conclusion that macOS is more secure than Windows?  Personally I think both environments do an excellent job from a security POV. 

    And too:  Don't forget the entire Apple Ecosystem that simply doesn't exist in the world of Windows.   I love how my Apple Watch unlocks my MacBook and how my messages flow between my Watch, my phone and my MacBook - etc, etc, etc,....

    Don't forget that MS have their ecosystem too.  Two examples that come to my mind are gaming and business / enterprise.  The integration of the Xbox / Xbox Live and Windows 10 ecosystems is non existent in Apple devices.  And the business / enterprise ecosystem MS have is miles ahead of what Apple offers.  From what I'm seeing, both environments have excellent ecosystems, with a strength in some areas and weakness in other. 

    beowulfschmidtwilliamlondonelijahg
  • Reply 87 of 105
    Seriously, Apples woes really started when 'thin became in', all that good engineering went out the door in the name of fashion.
    williamlondonGeorgeBMacelijahg
  • Reply 88 of 105
    woodbine said:
    Seriously, Apples woes really started when 'thin became in', all that good engineering went out the door in the name of fashion.
    Complete nonsense, of course. Thinner computing devices make them easier to bring more places with less effort. A mobile is a mobile, not a desktop. As an enterprise professional I welcome less mass to lug around with my portable computers. Shrinking and miniaturization is a very technical, very impressive skill.

    You can’t get the fantastic devices of the future if you’re content to stay with the status quo.

     Get a dell.
    edited December 2018 redgeminipawilliamlondonwatto_cobraelijahg
  • Reply 89 of 105
    There is no 2018 model of the MBP without touch bar, the one currently on sale is the 2017 model, so I don't know why people are complaining about the comparison.  It's Apple's own fault for not upgrading it this year with 8th generation CPUs, etc.
    elijahg
  • Reply 90 of 105
    Having never ever used anything than Apple products for productivity, I wholeheartedly support AI's decision to be truthful about the cost and the performance of Apple products. This kind of press is necessary and it can only be beneficial to us loyal customers. 
    elijahg
  • Reply 91 of 105
    saareksaarek Posts: 1,105member
    JayVee said:
    There is no 2018 model of the MBP without touch bar, the one currently on sale is the 2017 model, so I don't know why people are complaining about the comparison.  It's Apple's own fault for not upgrading it this year with 8th generation CPUs, etc.
    Sadly it’s now a very common Apple practice. Last years hardware at today’s prices .

    It’s a way for them to make more money from those buying the base model whilst also pushing people to the upper model.

    It’s all in with Tim’s current approach. Sell less, make more.

    Of course, at least in my opinion, the issue with this strategy is that selling less means a lower install base. As the install base shrinks the revenue stream for App developers drop and so they abandon the platform. 

    It will all happen slowly, of course, but it’s almost like Apple is deliberately putting the Mac into a slow death spiral.
    edited December 2018 elijahg
  • Reply 92 of 105
    saarek said:
    Has apple insider gone mental? This is the worse matchup, one is brand new and one is a whole generation ago. 7th gen cpu vs 8th gen’s latest? When comparing cpu’s This is like putting a 2019 corvette up against a 1999. You can justify this with cost all you want, it is still ludicrous.
    Apple Insider is doing what every other consumer does.  I.e. At a certain price point: What is the best value?

    This focus on value what allowed Dell to surpass almost everyone in the PC business.  They single handily killed off Gateway, and sent companies like IBM running for the hills (selling PCs).

    When you buy a MacBook, the expectations is you get value from the quality of components and longevity of the machine.  The reality for many is they’re better off buying a Windows machine now, with the full knowledge that they’ll probably need to replace it with another while the MacBook is still going strong.

    When you buy a premium car is it worth it? What about a premium washing machine?  All these comparisons are worth discussing.  There is no universal right answer...

    My biggest complaint about Apple is their pricing.  I find value in the iPhone & iPad product lines, but I don’t own a Mac.  As much as I dislike Windows 10, I don’t own a Mac.  I’m not sure I’ll ever own a Mac... because of price/value.

    The business case (enterprise) for MacBooks (as I see it) is stronger than for “personal” machines.  We’re talking about the cost for IT support factored in.  Personally, I can do everything myself so there is no cost saving.

    Would I recommend a MacBook to others? Sure.  In the right situation.  I can see value in a computer noob taking a MacBook to college, where Apple Stores are located everywhere for support. 
    You don't buy a Mac for the hardware.   You buy it for the OS and the ecosystem -- which is why they cost more.    Those things cost Apple money that they pass on to you in the selling price.
    I've never minded paying 30-35% more for a comparable Mac. For that 30-35% you get a much nicer design, reliability, premium build materials, Mac OS, long software support cycle of 6 years+ and good resale value that usually ends up recovering most of the additional outlay.

    But the new MacBook family design traits remove a lot of those advantages. You no longer get a long term reliable machine, resale value will certainly take a hit as people understandably will be nervous of buying these machines out of warranty due to the many issues that they have. From keyboards to speakers, logic board failures to port issues, the problems of the generation are everywhere, and in large reported numbers.

    I love Apple, I've been an avid apple user for 13 years since I bought my first Mac mini and fell in love with Mac OS X, but these new MacBooks have really shook my faith in Apple and their quality control. I'm not sure if I should sell my MacBook Pro now whilst it is in warranty and seek out a model from 2015 or not, or get the extended warranty and hold on until they release a new design that is actually fit for purpose.

    https://www.macworld.co.uk/feature/mac/macbook-pro-keyboard-problems-3653458/
    I'm on my 5th MacBook Pro, a 2015, and the only one that has ever failed was a 2006 model.  Haven't had a single issue with the keyboards (99.9% of people who buy them don't; the problem is overblow on forums).

    My latest MacBook Pro is selling used on eBay for 65-70% of what I paid for it, whereas a Dell Windows 10 laptop I purchased a year ago is worth barely 25%. By the time I own it as long as I've had my Mac it will be worth nearly nothing.  In addition, that Dell laptop is an utter piece of plastic junk, and not just because of the OS.
    redgeminipawatto_cobra
  • Reply 93 of 105

    An article comparing a macOS computer with a Windows computer is like comparing the best English-language newspaper with the best French-language newspaper. What's the point? They serve different customers; they don't compete.
    I think the comparison is a poor one, but not because they don't compete. People indeed shop both.

    The comparison is a poor one because it compares computers that were designed 2 years apart, and one is a PC where this is an Apple-focused website (or it's supposed to be). I doubt people are coming here for info on Windows computers.
    williamlondonwatto_cobraelijahg
  • Reply 94 of 105
    lkrupp said:
    Bottom line? MacBooks are overpriced TRASH. I get it. Thanks for reminding us with a 2X4 to the forehead in this side-by-side.
    Only if you compare hardware to hardware and ignore the fact that, when you buy a Mac, you also get the great OS and Apple's ecosystem -- both of which add considerable value.   Value that you have to pay for though.
    If one considers the hardware to be trash (though, based on later comments, I think the OP might have forgotten the /s in his/her comment), then a high value operating system is of limited value.  If the hardware fails repeatedly, as it has for some of the posters in this thread, then paying a premium for the OS is a waste of money, since one will need to replace the hardware.  If that hardware replacement eventually requires buying a new machine, then you end up paying for the OS again, even though you don't need another copy of it.  Because, if I'm not mistaken, unlike a Windows box, you can't buy a Mac of any variety without buying the OS at the same time, correct?
    williamlondonelijahg
  • Reply 95 of 105
    tbornot said:
    My main problem with the Mac is that it can’t run the huge library of viruses available on the PC, nor can it keep most of the processors busy running virus scanners or my internet connection saturated downloading emergency patches.  I mean, what can a Mac do anyway?
    I've never had a virus on my Win 10 box, nor did I when it had Win 7 on it.  Windows XP was the same way.  And I only ever ran the built in Microsoft scanner.  I periodically checked it with something else, like MalwareBytes, Spybot, Kapersky, or one of many others, but I never actually ran any of those full time on my box.
    williamlondon
  • Reply 96 of 105
    saareksaarek Posts: 1,105member
    flydog said:
    saarek said:
    Has apple insider gone mental? This is the worse matchup, one is brand new and one is a whole generation ago. 7th gen cpu vs 8th gen’s latest? When comparing cpu’s This is like putting a 2019 corvette up against a 1999. You can justify this with cost all you want, it is still ludicrous.
    Apple Insider is doing what every other consumer does.  I.e. At a certain price point: What is the best value?

    This focus on value what allowed Dell to surpass almost everyone in the PC business.  They single handily killed off Gateway, and sent companies like IBM running for the hills (selling PCs).

    When you buy a MacBook, the expectations is you get value from the quality of components and longevity of the machine.  The reality for many is they’re better off buying a Windows machine now, with the full knowledge that they’ll probably need to replace it with another while the MacBook is still going strong.

    When you buy a premium car is it worth it? What about a premium washing machine?  All these comparisons are worth discussing.  There is no universal right answer...

    My biggest complaint about Apple is their pricing.  I find value in the iPhone & iPad product lines, but I don’t own a Mac.  As much as I dislike Windows 10, I don’t own a Mac.  I’m not sure I’ll ever own a Mac... because of price/value.

    The business case (enterprise) for MacBooks (as I see it) is stronger than for “personal” machines.  We’re talking about the cost for IT support factored in.  Personally, I can do everything myself so there is no cost saving.

    Would I recommend a MacBook to others? Sure.  In the right situation.  I can see value in a computer noob taking a MacBook to college, where Apple Stores are located everywhere for support. 
    You don't buy a Mac for the hardware.   You buy it for the OS and the ecosystem -- which is why they cost more.    Those things cost Apple money that they pass on to you in the selling price.
    I've never minded paying 30-35% more for a comparable Mac. For that 30-35% you get a much nicer design, reliability, premium build materials, Mac OS, long software support cycle of 6 years+ and good resale value that usually ends up recovering most of the additional outlay.

    But the new MacBook family design traits remove a lot of those advantages. You no longer get a long term reliable machine, resale value will certainly take a hit as people understandably will be nervous of buying these machines out of warranty due to the many issues that they have. From keyboards to speakers, logic board failures to port issues, the problems of the generation are everywhere, and in large reported numbers.

    I love Apple, I've been an avid apple user for 13 years since I bought my first Mac mini and fell in love with Mac OS X, but these new MacBooks have really shook my faith in Apple and their quality control. I'm not sure if I should sell my MacBook Pro now whilst it is in warranty and seek out a model from 2015 or not, or get the extended warranty and hold on until they release a new design that is actually fit for purpose.

    https://www.macworld.co.uk/feature/mac/macbook-pro-keyboard-problems-3653458/
    I'm on my 5th MacBook Pro, a 2015, and the only one that has ever failed was a 2006 model.  Haven't had a single issue with the keyboards (99.9% of people who buy them don't; the problem is overblow on forums).

    My latest MacBook Pro is selling used on eBay for 65-70% of what I paid for it, whereas a Dell Windows 10 laptop I purchased a year ago is worth barely 25%. By the time I own it as long as I've had my Mac it will be worth nearly nothing.  In addition, that Dell laptop is an utter piece of plastic junk, and not just because of the OS.
    The main Problems that people have now were not present in the 2015 MacBook Pro. 

    The one one you have pretty much meets the gold standard of what people want.
    elijahg
  • Reply 97 of 105
    doggone said:
    Sure parents will generally not spend a lot on a kids computer.  They can buy any laptop for less that $500.  It will likely be heavy, easily get loaded with Malware and fall to pieces after a few years. Go ahead and get a PC if that is for you.
    Every Mac I have bought has lasted over 5 years.  And I don't have to worry about software, OS or security. Their longevity and staying power seems to be increasing over time.  My 1st gen rMBP has lasted for 6 years and is still as fast as it was when I got it.   The 2016 MBP is even better because it has a smaller footprint and is 50% lighter with the same screen size.  
    HD die a lot faster than SSD, especially those for laptops.  SSDs are a lot faster and are no longer a huge bottleneck.  How often does a motherboard die, and even it is does a Time Machine back up can restore everything if you have it set up properly.
    If you are using a MBP for professional applications then wouldn't you have a external monitor, keyboard, mouse etc. The 15 inch MBP has 4 TB3 ports that allow you to configure externals how you like.  I got a dock that provides all the back compatibility I need and can charge from either side. Way more flexible that in the past.

    The way I see your math, a $500 Windows laptop lasts "a few years"...a few means at least 3 (or it would be a couple).  $500 for 3 years.  Then another $500 for a newer machine, faster, later tech, etc. for another 3 years.  At this point, your $1500 6 year old MBP is looking pretty old and SLOW compared to that $500 Windows machine.  And that Windows machine can be upgraded.  Bigger SSD's, more memory, etc.  Your stuck with whatever Apple has glued into your MBP.  Forever.  Or until you shell out another $2000 to replace it.

    I get people religiously want macOS.  But it's a losing argument when it comes to hardware, value and the ability to cheaply upgrade the performance and capacity of a Windows PC.    And, reliability these days isn't even an issue with Windows PC.  It's all the same hardware now!


    GeorgeBMacelijahg
  • Reply 98 of 105
    saareksaarek Posts: 1,105member
    deminsd said:
    doggone said:
    Sure parents will generally not spend a lot on a kids computer.  They can buy any laptop for less that $500.  It will likely be heavy, easily get loaded with Malware and fall to pieces after a few years. Go ahead and get a PC if that is for you.
    Every Mac I have bought has lasted over 5 years.  And I don't have to worry about software, OS or security. Their longevity and staying power seems to be increasing over time.  My 1st gen rMBP has lasted for 6 years and is still as fast as it was when I got it.   The 2016 MBP is even better because it has a smaller footprint and is 50% lighter with the same screen size.  
    HD die a lot faster than SSD, especially those for laptops.  SSDs are a lot faster and are no longer a huge bottleneck.  How often does a motherboard die, and even it is does a Time Machine back up can restore everything if you have it set up properly.
    If you are using a MBP for professional applications then wouldn't you have a external monitor, keyboard, mouse etc. The 15 inch MBP has 4 TB3 ports that allow you to configure externals how you like.  I got a dock that provides all the back compatibility I need and can charge from either side. Way more flexible that in the past.

    The way I see your math, a $500 Windows laptop lasts "a few years"...a few means at least 3 (or it would be a couple).  $500 for 3 years.  Then another $500 for a newer machine, faster, later tech, etc. for another 3 years.  At this point, your $1500 6 year old MBP is looking pretty old and SLOW compared to that $500 Windows machine.  And that Windows machine can be upgraded.  Bigger SSD's, more memory, etc.  Your stuck with whatever Apple has glued into your MBP.  Forever.  Or until you shell out another $2000 to replace it.

    I get people religiously want macOS.  But it's a losing argument when it comes to hardware, value and the ability to cheaply upgrade the performance and capacity of a Windows PC.    And, reliability these days isn't even an issue with Windows PC.  It's all the same hardware now!


    I’ll not be switching to a Dell, or similar,  but Apple have really painted themselves into a corner with their new computers.

    Have a problem with the keyboard in older MacBooks or any other laptop on the planet,  not a problem. Pull out the key, if blowing air doesn’t fix it, and replace accordingly.

    Have a 2016-current MacBook? Well if the key gets stuck, you need to replace the whole assembly, consisting of the keyboard, the battery, and the upper case metal surrounding the keyboard and Thunderbolt 3 ports.

    That’s a TERRIBLE engineering design. Not only did they create a keyboard that dies if a piece of dust gets under the key, but they make it impossible to fix without replacing most of the computer.

    If almost anything on the MacBook fails, and once again from the speakers to the logic board there is a higher than normal failure rate, they have to replace essentially everything but the screen.

    How this ever got past quality control is beyond me, but how they continued to sell a faulty design for years is worse.
    edited December 2018 williamlondonelijahg
  • Reply 99 of 105
    deminsd said:
    doggone said:
    Sure parents will generally not spend a lot on a kids computer.  They can buy any laptop for less that $500.  It will likely be heavy, easily get loaded with Malware and fall to pieces after a few years. Go ahead and get a PC if that is for you.
    Every Mac I have bought has lasted over 5 years.  And I don't have to worry about software, OS or security. Their longevity and staying power seems to be increasing over time.  My 1st gen rMBP has lasted for 6 years and is still as fast as it was when I got it.   The 2016 MBP is even better because it has a smaller footprint and is 50% lighter with the same screen size.  
    HD die a lot faster than SSD, especially those for laptops.  SSDs are a lot faster and are no longer a huge bottleneck.  How often does a motherboard die, and even it is does a Time Machine back up can restore everything if you have it set up properly.
    If you are using a MBP for professional applications then wouldn't you have a external monitor, keyboard, mouse etc. The 15 inch MBP has 4 TB3 ports that allow you to configure externals how you like.  I got a dock that provides all the back compatibility I need and can charge from either side. Way more flexible that in the past.

    The way I see your math, a $500 Windows laptop lasts "a few years"...a few means at least 3 (or it would be a couple).  $500 for 3 years.  Then another $500 for a newer machine, faster, later tech, etc. for another 3 years.  At this point, your $1500 6 year old MBP is looking pretty old and SLOW compared to that $500 Windows machine.  And that Windows machine can be upgraded.  Bigger SSD's, more memory, etc.  Your stuck with whatever Apple has glued into your MBP.  Forever.  Or until you shell out another $2000 to replace it.

    I get people religiously want macOS.  But it's a losing argument when it comes to hardware, value and the ability to cheaply upgrade the performance and capacity of a Windows PC.    And, reliability these days isn't even an issue with Windows PC.  It's all the same hardware now!


    I’ll help you with your value equation a little. And, no... it’s not all the same hardware. Apple doesn’t use many off-the-shelf components. Most are custom designs, and Apple designs their own logic boards.

    When it’s time to sell that 3 year old, barely running, $500 Windows computer, if it can be sold, it might be worth $50 - $100, if you’re lucky. To buy new, you’re basically forking out the whole cost. You might replace it with another $500 machine, with $100 back in your pocket from selling the old one, meaning it’s now $400... x 2 cycles (6 years), so $900... plus the cost of maintenance software (anti-virus etc.), and the dreaded update Tuesdays that take several hours of production time away while it forces you to do updates. Let’s not forget Microsoft’s cut for a major OS update, so that could be another $100 or so. You’re at a minimum of $900 investment to use the Windows machine for 6 years. Then, when you sell that one to start your next 3 year cycle, you’re up to $1,300 out of pocket so far. If you’re spending a lot more on the Windows PC, the return on investment gets much worse (see below).

    My case? My last PC was a custom ordered $1,400 Dell back in 2007. Vista killed it for me and Windows, so it was sold a little over a year later. The winning bid on eBay was $325. I bought my first MacBook for $1,600, and never looked back. 

    When it’s time to sell that 6 year old, $1,500 MacBook Pro, it’ll still be worth somewhere in the neighborhood of $600 - $800. Now it’s time to upgrade to another $1,500 MacBook Pro... We’ll average it out to $700 returned on selling the used one. You’re out of pocket cost to start year 7 is effectively $800. Overall investment for 7 years is $2,300. The more these upgrade/selling cycles happen, the more it levels off over the years. The next upgrade cycle, starting year 13, is about $3,100 total investment. 

    I had my first ($1,600) MacBook for a little over 2 years, and sold it for $1,150. 

    As I always tell people, the biggest expense is the initial upfront investment for the Mac. After that, when considering resale value, it gets a lot more affordable to upgrade to a newer model.  

    Let’s try this with more expensive Windows machines, which a LOT of them are going the MacBook route with soldered, non-upgradeable parts.

    $1,500 initial purchase. 
    $300 resale after 3 years.
    $1,200 out of pocket for the next 3 years.
    $300 resale after 3 years.
    $2,400 overall investment starting year 7. 

    ...
    $300 resale after 3 years.
    $3,600 overall investment starting year 10. 
    $300 resale after 3 years.
    $4,800 overall investment starting year 13. - You’re now at $1,700 more expensive to own Windows PCs compared to similar Macs for the same amount of time. 

    It just keeps sucking you dry as time goes on. I won’t even get into overall stress levels of Windows versus MacOS. You can put a price on that... doctors and meds... 
    edited December 2018 watto_cobraelijahg
  • Reply 100 of 105
    saarek said:
    saarek said:
    macplusplus said:  Because that "staff" know how they will be ridiculed if they put the battery benchmark in the article. The battery life is most probably two hours or so, because a gaming laptop is expected to be used mostly plugged in. That one is a laptop for teens, who want it to carry their games alongside when hanging out with friends. Teens like that brand's flashy keyboards and mice too.
    Right on the money: it's specifically intended for gaming, so it isn't really a very good comparison to begin with. For example, how many people working in a typical corporate office that use PCs are going to be given a Razer Blade Stealth as their working laptop? I doubt that ever happens. They would get a PC model that was specifically intended for use as a working PC, not a gaming PC. 
    The HP Spectre probably would have been a better comparison. It's in the ultrabook class, like the MacBook Pro and, at least on paper, is a much better proposition.

    £1599 gets you Intel 8th Gen Core i7, 4K Display which is touch/pen enabled, 16GB Ram, 1TB SSD, supports USB C/Thunderbolt and USB A and even has 3 years warranty included -- and typical HP junk.

    £1599 for the Mac, well it gets you the old 2017 model with 8GB Ram, 7th Gen CPU, 256GB SSD and one year warranty, plus £50 back in your pocket - and Apple level quality, the MacOS and Apple Ecosystem.
    Here, fixed that for ya!
    Yes, new Apple MacBook level quality. Faulty keyboards, logic boards, SSD's, Thunderbolt ports, and speakers.

    The thing is people like you assume that anyone like me, who point out the faults and the recent price gouging of Apple, must be a Troll, or a windows fanboy, or that we are not well versed in Apple's past products and the faults that they too had.

    The truth is I love Apple, I am heavily invested in the Apple eco system and I am deeply troubled by what I perceive as recent missteps by Apple and the apparent lack of change of course by them. And importantly I am not alone.

    By heavily invested, let me clarify. In my household we have two iPhones (an iPhone 8 and an iPhone XS Max), an iPad, a MacBook Pro, a HomePod, an Apple TV, a Apple Watch and a 27" iMac. My loyalty to Apple runs around 13 years deep and I have converted one hell of a lot of people over the years, I should be on commission with the amount of product I havre shifted for them!

    But it's getting harder to recommend Apple. Their pricing is generally no longer fit for the average consumer or the education market. £1200 entry level for a laptop is just too much for most people, it's the same with the £800 for the Mac Mini.

    On top of the price hikes their reliability has gone through the floor, in good conscience how can I push someone to spend upwards of twice the price for something like the MacBook Pro when I know it has so many issues, issues that I and my family have already experienced.

    Mindlessly defend them if you want, but doing that will not help them improve.


    Actually, no...   I did not assume that at all in any way.   And, I wasn't trying to refute anything you said.  I was just pointing out additional facets of the truth -- the other side of the coin if you will.
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