Rene Ritchie (@reneritchie) 1/2/19, 5:24 PM IMHO, complaints about pricing, price points, home buttons, headphone jacks, batteries, upgrade cycles, etc. are all valid but are also all besides the point, which remains: Can Apple transition iPhone from growth driver to platform that enables more growth drivers? That’s it.
This is pretty spot on. Apple has hundreds of millions of iPhone customers. How do you get those people to buy more things? And what are those things? Clearly they aren't Macs. They are AirPods, however. And Apple Music subscriptions. Video is the logical next step.
As someone who has bought Apple products (and stock) for almost 40 years, I remember many long years where Apple sold 1 device for every 1000 the other guys sold. They struck silver with the iPod and then gold with the iPhone. The iPod appealed to all sorts of people. You didn't have to be a techie. Apple built a better mousetrap and the public responded. And then came the iPhone. Everyone needs a phone. Apple built a better phone and, again, the public responded. So what else has incredibly broad appeal and needs a better use experience? And is Apple even the company to deliver these days? I personally wish they'd focus more on home automation and deliver some killer first party products in that area. I also think they should get serious about audio, maybe buy Sonos. HomePod was a huge miss. I would have bought at least 6 for my house if it wasn't such a gimped product.
I disagree that HomePod is a miss. People are comparing the $350 HomePod to FREE-$20 buck Echos which is just dumb. It's not a direct competitor to smart speakers. It's a high end bluetooth speaker with a Siri "musicologist". It's selling and it's doing its job.
Where could Apple strike Gold?
1. Cars.
2. Glasses. I have an idea that (hopefully) Cook will read that would make Apple Glasses a miracle device. If Apple can think of better ideas than a poor forum commenter then they will strike gold.
3. Health. Apple is already a leader here.
Now as far as services:
1. Shopping. A pre-installed app that can act as a mall, an "eBay" and an "amazon" all in one would pull in billions.
2. Expanding the TV app. Adding an Apple Service, a possible sports service and movies in theaters would pull in more billions.
3. Expanding Didi. Apple could also pre-install Didi into iOS devices and go head on with Uber/Lyft in western countries.
And right on cue, the salivating trolls come marching onto EVERY Apple site in existence by the truckload!
Forget trolls. What is your opinion on what is happening on iPhone?
The rest of the business seems to be doing ok. They have a lot of cash reserves to pull on. That won't save them from a roller coaster ride, short term, but iPhone is suffering. Do you agree with TCs line or do you think he is airbrushing bits? Are prices too high? Is competition playing a part? Are iPhones underperforming on features? Etc.
The smartphone market is mature. I can easily afford the top of the line iPhone model, but I see no reason to upgrade from my 7 Plus. I think a lot of people feel this way. Even if Apple dropped prices tomorrow, I still wouldn’t upgrade. My 7 Plus is great. I’d like FaceID, but that’s not enough of a reason to upgrade.
I dont think prices are the issue. There are iPhone models under $500. Top of the line is very pricey, but Apple has nice offerings at several price points. The market is saturated and mature and this was bound to happen.
If price wasn’t an issue why did Tim keep mentioning subsidies going away? Why did he mention not marketing the trade-in program enough? Both of those things scream price issues. Which was obvious when the front page of apple.com was displaying this:
I know many people with older phones and none of them WANT to upgrade. They don’t care about pricing. They are satisfied with their current devices. I was just helping a friend with her Mac today. It’s 8 years old and works fine. She sees no reason to upgrade. The same thing is happening with phones.
As I said, Apple has phone models at a variety of price points. Stop focusing on the top of the line. Phones are mature. The tech is mature. There aren’t a lot of new features. Faster, better screen, better camera...yawn. My phone is fast enough and the camera is fine. The days of annual upgrades are over.
Price is a factor, but it’s not the issue.
I don’t think higher prices is the only factor but it is A factor. It’s not like upgrade cycles just started lengthening this year. It’s possible too that the XR just introduced confusion to the lineup. People weren’t sure what to buy so they didn’t buy anything.
That could be, but I think it really comes down to how good these devices have become. We don’t upgrade our computers or any other piece of tech yearly. It’s crazy to buy a new phone every year, especially when there aren’t many new features. Truly new features, not just improved tech. At some point we reach “good enough” and I think that happened with the 7, maybe even the 6s. Upgrade cycles have been getting longer and longer ever since.
If Apple dropped the price of the XS by 20% tomorrow, I doubt it would impact overall sales very much. I think Apple could move more devices with promotions like a free year of Apple Music and/or increased iCloud storage amounts. After the first year, your customer is hooked and keeps paying. The “first world” (I hate that term) is saturated. Dropping prices alone won’t solve the problem. In the “developing” (I hate that term too) world, price is key. They need a cheap, break-even device that brings people into the ecosystem and gets them hooked on services. As much as I hate to think of Apple as a services company, that is the logical source of revenue growth. Recurring monthly charges.
You are right that regardless of price increases the upgrade cycle is lengthening. But I still think the price increases had an effect if for no other reason than the narrative around iPhone became about price. And maybe some people would have upgraded but balked when the flagship that used to start at $649 now started at $999. And then this year even the new cheaper model was $100 more than the flagship model was a couple years ago.
Personally I’d like to see Apple move to a good/better/best model for iPhones where good and better aren’t just the previous years phone at a cheaper price. Have 3 new phones that are good value for the money with no confusion over which one to get. The only thing that complicates this idea is size as some people want really big phones and some want an SE sized phone. I would just like to see the line up be clean. And only keep older models around for very price sensitive markets like India.
The narrative is definitely about price, unfortunately. It's like bashing BMW for selling the i8 at such a ridiculous price while ignoring all the other perfectly good cars that BMW sells. I agree with you on good/better/best, but I think that's kind of what we have now. It's just a matter of perception. Keeping an older models in production for another year or two and making it the "good" tier is a lot cheaper than designing three new phones each year, plus all of the production and tooling costs associated. You can get a new iPhone 7 Plus for under $500 today. I doubt they could deliver a newly designed "good" tier phone every year for that price.
I also agree that the product line is confusing, and that goes for everything, not just iPhones. Thank goodness we're not back to the Quadra and Performa days (yet), but things have gotten bad.
The cheapest new 2018 iPhone you can get in Canada right now is $1228 with AppleCare ($1375 after tax). $1375... for the bottom of the barrel 2018 phone. The cheapest possible phone you can get is a 7 for $1100.
The iPhone most people would like to have is the Xs 256 - which costs $2058 with AppleCare after tax.
Nice phones? Sure. $2058 nice? lol
Throw in a case and your average data plan cost and you are looking at a 2 year $4500 investment.
$4500 for the new iPhone with the newest features.
Go ahead and try to defend that. Business's can't justify that - so forget about 20 somethings paying off student loans, paying that for dancing poo emoji's and Instagram scrolling. And before you attempt to point to other offerings - nobody wants to pay $1100 for a near obsolete 3 year old iPhone 7.
It's beyond absurd.
Strong
U.S.
Dollar
Tim spoke of that as one of the factors in developed countries.
There are many factors. Currency issues are just one and easy to allow for but you need to trade off some margins. If currency fluctuations are reducing demand for your product, adjust pricing to compensate or risk losing the sale.
The Mate 20 Pro retails for the same price as an iPhone XR in India. That makes the iPhone XS far less attractive. Obviously in China, the Chinese brands have an edge when it comes to all the key handset areas. Looks like everything that could work against Apple there, actually did work against them.
And right on cue, the salivating trolls come marching onto EVERY Apple site in existence by the truckload!
Forget trolls. What is your opinion on what is happening on iPhone?
The rest of the business seems to be doing ok. They have a lot of cash reserves to pull on. That won't save them from a roller coaster ride, short term, but iPhone is suffering. Do you agree with TCs line or do you think he is airbrushing bits? Are prices too high? Is competition playing a part? Are iPhones underperforming on features? Etc.
The smartphone market is mature. I can easily afford the top of the line iPhone model, but I see no reason to upgrade from my 7 Plus. I think a lot of people feel this way. Even if Apple dropped prices tomorrow, I still wouldn’t upgrade. My 7 Plus is great. I’d like FaceID, but that’s not enough of a reason to upgrade.
I dont think prices are the issue. There are iPhone models under $500. Top of the line is very pricey, but Apple has nice offerings at several price points. The market is saturated and mature and this was bound to happen.
If price wasn’t an issue why did Tim keep mentioning subsidies going away? Why did he mention not marketing the trade-in program enough? Both of those things scream price issues. Which was obvious when the front page of apple.com was displaying this:
I know many people with older phones and none of them WANT to upgrade. They don’t care about pricing. They are satisfied with their current devices. I was just helping a friend with her Mac today. It’s 8 years old and works fine. She sees no reason to upgrade. The same thing is happening with phones.
As I said, Apple has phone models at a variety of price points. Stop focusing on the top of the line. Phones are mature. The tech is mature. There aren’t a lot of new features. Faster, better screen, better camera...yawn. My phone is fast enough and the camera is fine. The days of annual upgrades are over.
Price is a factor, but it’s not the issue.
I don’t think higher prices is the only factor but it is A factor. It’s not like upgrade cycles just started lengthening this year. It’s possible too that the XR just introduced confusion to the lineup. People weren’t sure what to buy so they didn’t buy anything.
DEAD ON with the XR confusion. A lot of people went into the Apple store prepared to drop $1000+ on a XS and left with a cheaper XR with a larger screen....
Or went into the store and left with nothing. If the XR was doing well why would Apple be marketing it $300 cheaper (with trade-in) on the front page of their website? Why would carriers like Sprint and T-Mobile be offering it for free with new activations?
Oh of course. People went in with $1000+ and left with nothing. DOOMED!
The stock will open down about 7%. That’s after being down almost 30% over the last quarter. But keep covering your eyes and ears if it makes you feel better.
I Wonder if Angela Ahrendts influace has something to do with whats happening with Apples prices and image of super lux. Product... indtead of value proposition.
I said it months ago. The XR should have had a smaller screen size, pulling the price down to at least 699 with the same profits, maybe even a lower price.
Android phones with screens bigger than the Xr sell for much less than the Xr though. So there's no excusing high prices with feature X or Y.
Certainly not the first time Apple out priced a product. It happens from time to time and it will happen again eventually. Honestly, I think this happens to every company eventually.
True but will they admit a mistake and correct or just keep chugging down the same track. Only time they admitted a mistake in pricing I can remember was the first iPhone where they dropped the price and pissed off everyone who'd bought it early.
They gave a voucher to those who bought early though.
How many androids run iOS?
Also, my point was, a smaller screen size would have made a more desirable iPhone. Bigger isn't always better.
Whilst iOS is certainly "sticky" it's not sticky enough that people will pay twice the price of an Android phone that does 90% of what the iPhone does. I love Apple, I'm dismayed when a friend switches away from iOS. I'm dismayed not at the friend, but at Apple's prices; because I'm in the same boat: I will not pay Cook's prices.
I agree, I know a few people who would rather a smaller iOS phone. But for some reason after years of holding out on a big screen phone, Apple now doesn't offer a smaller one much to the disappointment of people with smaller hands.
Rene Ritchie (@reneritchie) 1/2/19, 5:24 PM IMHO, complaints about pricing, price points, home buttons, headphone jacks, batteries, upgrade cycles, etc. are all valid but are also all besides the point, which remains: Can Apple transition iPhone from growth driver to platform that enables more growth drivers? That’s it.
This is pretty spot on. Apple has hundreds of millions of iPhone customers. How do you get those people to buy more things? And what are those things? Clearly they aren't Macs. They are AirPods, however. And Apple Music subscriptions. Video is the logical next step.
As someone who has bought Apple products (and stock) for almost 40 years, I remember many long years where Apple sold 1 device for every 1000 the other guys sold. They struck silver with the iPod and then gold with the iPhone. The iPod appealed to all sorts of people. You didn't have to be a techie. Apple built a better mousetrap and the public responded. And then came the iPhone. Everyone needs a phone. Apple built a better phone and, again, the public responded. So what else has incredibly broad appeal and needs a better use experience? And is Apple even the company to deliver these days? I personally wish they'd focus more on home automation and deliver some killer first party products in that area. I also think they should get serious about audio, maybe buy Sonos. HomePod was a huge miss. I would have bought at least 6 for my house if it wasn't such a gimped product.
Agree 100%. And with a new video service coming maybe Apple should get into the TV business. I know TVs are a low margin business but it wouldn’t be about the TV so much as about tvOS and Apple’s video service. Every time I go into Best Buy the busiest part of the store is their TV section. I have a 4K TCL TV with Roku. I hardly ever fire up my Apple TV box. But if Apple sold a smart TV with tvOS and all the benefits of the Apple ecosystem I’d seriously think about getting one. And it wouldnt have to be outrageously priced because it would be all about getting Apple video service subs.
Apple is doomed in China. Even if Trump reverse his hostile altitude toward China, Apple has lost all the goodwill of Chinese people. If you don't believe this will happen, take a look of Samsung sales in China. Its market share is at low single digits. Chinese used to be fond of Apple due to Apple helping manufacturing jobs in China. Trump wants Apple to being those SLAVE jobs back to US. He says by avoiding tariffs he imposed on China, Apple can make up the high costs of labor in US. This idiot ignores Apple's market share in China. Apparently he doesn't care if Apple sell iPhones in China. This has never been the American way of doing business. Why the red states white Americans believe in him?
I am holding off on a new iPhone and am sticking with my 6S Plus for a while longer due to Apple's higher prices. I'm sure I am not the only one...
Why not? Still works?? But if you cannot afford a new iPhone theres a lot of android alternative. Nobody is twisting your arm to buy a latest and the greatest
Nobody even mentions that Apple is still selling the iPhone 7, 8 and now again the X. If you don’t need the latest model, there are plenty of less-expensive models to choose from. People are focusing on the most-expensive Xs Max instead of the whole lineup. Yes the Xs Max is expensive - one reason I’m keeping my 8 Plus. But it’s not all there is.
It's ridiculous isn't it?
People complain about price and then quote the most expensive iPhone as an example.
The latest iPhone is $750.
When do people complain that Ford is too expensive and then continue to quote the $70,000 Shelby Mustang? Like they say, people have special rules for Apple.
Ya that claim keeps being made. However the piddly insultingly low 64GB of storage make that phone useless many. If you're replacing an older phone that cost less but had not storage and you're using it, that low end entry phone isn't going to cut it. That send to be Apple's strategy. Put devices with very low storage (and RAM on MacBooks) to try and bring people in. Then when they spec the machine they need is hundreds or thousands more.
Well XR seems to be doing fine.
64GB is plenty for a lot of people. I'm thinking of buying a 64GB XR myself.
Would you prefer XR start at 128GB and $799?
Like I said Apple can't win with the haters. I think a better strategy would have been a smaller screen size and lower price. But Apple is only gonna be 4 billion from breaking a new record so maybe Tim Cook is a better CEO than the rest of us?
You seem to think the extra storage costs Apple. It doesn't. The 64GB chip is a couple of dollars, the 128GB one is a couple of dollars more. Apple makes the money in making suckers pay an extra $100 for $4 of storage. It's a ripoff and people don't like it. Apple could sell the base model for the same price with 128GB storage, making it much better value and the customers would be much more willing to pay the price. It would likely increase sales, though Apple would no longer make the extra $96 for an upgrade to the next tier. And unfortunately all Cook can see is the loss of that $96, not the fact that it would ultimately result in more sales and more revenue.
The extra storage is not $100 but $50. Just saying.
Apple downgrades its guidance and suddenly all the naysayers are geniuses in their own fabricated little universes. Amazing. It's like a broken clock that is accurate exactly twice a day. Again, Apple is always hiring so let's see those broken clock expert resumes heading out to Cupertino so the angry army of ephemeral redemption can set Tim & Co. back on to the righteous path to profitability.
The sad thing to realize for those who revel in Apple's quarterly shortfall is that this is a clear signal that the mass incineration of wealth taking place under the current US administration has no limits. Nobody is too smart, too innovative, or too efficient to escape the gross incompetence that is now a cancer on the US and world economy. This is not an "Apple problem" or a "Tim Cook problem." This is what happens when you send a boy (brain) in to do a man's job. The US economy is the mothership upon which the rich, poor, and all of those in-between rely on for safety, security, and long term financial sustainment. It's now being scuttled from within for the personal whims and sick amusement of someone who is as far out of touch with reality as a living organism can possibly be.
You should probably send your resume to the White House based on your own logic.
One type of argument I’ve always hated is of the type “if you are so smart why aren’t you doing that job”. That would exempt us from criticising anybody in a high level position. Except you contradicted yourself in the next post.
The real problem with China sales wasn’t tariffs (that should hurt iPhones be sales in the US) but the response to the arrest of the Huweii CFO.
Meng Wanzhou Was arrested in a 3rd country, Canada, for violation of US laws regarding a 4th, Iran. Imperial over reach.
Immediately the Chinese reduced their purchases of iPhones, with companies that used to buy them for employees moving to local suppliers.
As as far as I can see there’s fairly large support politically for the Iranian sanctions. The president doesn’t shoulder all the blame.
Thank you for your response. I agree that the president is not alone in this, but he is the one setting the tone and establishing the current culture, bizarre as it may be. There are plenty of enablers allowing this debacle to continue. Tim Cook is not one of them.
I Wonder if Angela Ahrendts influace has something to do with whats happening with Apples prices and image of super lux. Product... indtead of value proposition.
I said it months ago. The XR should have had a smaller screen size, pulling the price down to at least 699 with the same profits, maybe even a lower price.
Android phones with screens bigger than the Xr sell for much less than the Xr though. So there's no excusing high prices with feature X or Y.
Some do, some don't. Here's a handful of the flagship Android phones on the T-mobile site, all with comparable prices to iPhones:
And OMG a trade in promo! Samsung is doomed too!
I didn't mean all, but probably most. There are some surprisingly good Android phones that're big screened and $400. Samsung copied Apple's pricing (surprise surprise) and bumped their flagships up to $1000 shortly after Apple.
So are all the people who shit on anybody here who speculated iPhone sales might be soft going to apologize now? It was patently obvious once Apple started heavily pushing the trade-in program and displaying cheaper prices on apple.com homepage that there was an issue with sales.
yes, they are soft but it's ludicrious to think price is the only issue. Even Apple lowered prices by $100 to $150, it would have made any difference. Combination of iOS 12 + cheap battery upgrade program made older iPhones better and good enough for a ton of users. Currencies outside the USA got hit a lot causing prices to rise further. China's economy slowed in the 2H of 2018 which according to Tim Cook's letter where almost all of their negative decline came from. On top of all of that, the iPhone user base grew by 100 million users in the last 12 months which is the 6th straight year that's happened which means more people are buying and using iPhones. That last point alone is remarkable actually. And I think this sums it pretty well;
Part of the problem is the overreiliance on China sales for growth. They’ve never stopped being an IP-stealing, product dumping country. If the President can get them to deal and make some serious adjustments to their policies, things will get back on track pretty fast.
Having said that, the stock is about to take another serious gut punch.
If these China problems are fixed as you like, Apple sales will be lower without China market. Then its stock will never regain the record high.
So are all the people who shit on anybody here who speculated iPhone sales might be soft going to apologize now? It was patently obvious once Apple started heavily pushing the trade-in program and displaying cheaper prices on apple.com homepage that there was an issue with sales.
yes, they are soft but it's ludicrious to think price is the only issue. Even Apple lowered prices by $100 to $150, it would have made any difference. Combination of iOS 12 + cheap battery upgrade program made older iPhones better and good enough for a ton of users. Currencies outside the USA got hit a lot causing prices to rise further. China's economy slowed in the 2H of 2018 which according to Tim Cook's letter where almost all of their negative decline came from. On top of all of that, the iPhone user base grew by 100 million users in the last 12 months which is the 6th straight year that's happened which means more people are buying and using iPhones. That last point alone is remarkable actually. And I think this sums it pretty well;
Part of the problem is the overreiliance on China sales for growth. They’ve never stopped being an IP-stealing, product dumping country. If the President can get them to deal and make some serious adjustments to their policies, things will get back on track pretty fast.
"Part of the problem is the overreiliance on China sales for growth." => Great point
So are all the people who shit on anybody here who speculated iPhone sales might be soft going to apologize now? It was patently obvious once Apple started heavily pushing the trade-in program and displaying cheaper prices on apple.com homepage that there was an issue with sales.
yes, they are soft but it's ludicrious to think price is the only issue. Even Apple lowered prices by $100 to $150, it would have made any difference. Combination of iOS 12 + cheap battery upgrade program made older iPhones better and good enough for a ton of users. Currencies outside the USA got hit a lot causing prices to rise further. China's economy slowed in the 2H of 2018 which according to Tim Cook's letter where almost all of their negative decline came from. On top of all of that, the iPhone user base grew by 100 million users in the last 12 months which is the 6th straight year that's happened which means more people are buying and using iPhones. That last point alone is remarkable actually. And I think this sums it pretty well;
Part of the problem is the overreiliance on China sales for growth. They’ve never stopped being an IP-stealing, product dumping country. If the President can get them to deal and make some serious adjustments to their policies, things will get back on track pretty fast.
"Part of the problem is the overreiliance on China sales for growth." => Great point
This is wrong. Apple market share has not been growing recently. And its market share in India is also declining according to a recent AI article.
I am holding off on a new iPhone and am sticking with my 6S Plus for a while longer due to Apple's higher prices. I'm sure I am not the only one...
Why not? Still works?? But if you cannot afford a new iPhone theres a lot of android alternative. Nobody is twisting your arm to buy a latest and the greatest
Nobody even mentions that Apple is still selling the iPhone 7, 8 and now again the X. If you don’t need the latest model, there are plenty of less-expensive models to choose from. People are focusing on the most-expensive Xs Max instead of the whole lineup. Yes the Xs Max is expensive - one reason I’m keeping my 8 Plus. But it’s not all there is.
It's ridiculous isn't it?
People complain about price and then quote the most expensive iPhone as an example.
The latest iPhone is $750.
When do people complain that Ford is too expensive and then continue to quote the $70,000 Shelby Mustang? Like they say, people have special rules for Apple.
Ya that claim keeps being made. However the piddly insultingly low 64GB of storage make that phone useless many. If you're replacing an older phone that cost less but had not storage and you're using it, that low end entry phone isn't going to cut it. That send to be Apple's strategy. Put devices with very low storage (and RAM on MacBooks) to try and bring people in. Then when they spec the machine they need is hundreds or thousands more.
Well XR seems to be doing fine.
64GB is plenty for a lot of people. I'm thinking of buying a 64GB XR myself.
Would you prefer XR start at 128GB and $799?
Like I said Apple can't win with the haters. I think a better strategy would have been a smaller screen size and lower price. But Apple is only gonna be 4 billion from breaking a new record so maybe Tim Cook is a better CEO than the rest of us?
You seem to think the extra storage costs Apple. It doesn't. The 64GB chip is a couple of dollars, the 128GB one is a couple of dollars more. Apple makes the money in making suckers pay an extra $100 for $4 of storage. It's a ripoff and people don't like it. Apple could sell the base model for the same price with 128GB storage, making it much better value and the customers would be much more willing to pay the price. It would likely increase sales, though Apple would no longer make the extra $96 for an upgrade to the next tier. And unfortunately all Cook can see is the loss of that $96, not the fact that it would ultimately result in more sales and more revenue.
One has to believe there are people at Apple doing the math on optimal prices and what changing the price +/- X number of $$ does to sales & revenues. I don’t know who is ultimately responsible for setting prices (is it Schiller’s team that makes the final call) but IMo they misjudged the market. Aside from the iPad announced in March every other hardware product Apple released this year went up in price. People might finally be saying no thanks.
So are all the people who shit on anybody here who speculated iPhone sales might be soft going to apologize now? It was patently obvious once Apple started heavily pushing the trade-in program and displaying cheaper prices on apple.com homepage that there was an issue with sales.
Not for a minute.
Should someone who's wrong 24 quarters in a row (all the analysts and the idiots who believe them) that now finds their prediction come true one single time suddenly be praised for their insight? Or did they just get lucky after repeating the same tripe over and over to the point where one day they were finally correct?
We all know it's the latter.
Of course, you could have simply accepted a differing opinion and countered with your own reasoned input instead of jumping on posters and labelling them as trolls, shills, idiots and what not. There is no 'getting lucky' here. Price ceilings exist. You have one. I have one. Most of us do. If prices increase in a saturated market and Apple hasn't pushed the envelope on a tech level, something is likely to give. With iPhone, it just gave.
We're focusing on iPhone mainly here and rightly so.
If you don't call being right one time only a lucky guess, then what do you call it?
And what do you call being wrong 24+ times? Bad luck? Oh wait, you said luck isn't involved. So being wrong for years and years is what, incompetence?
You’re such a troll! Go stand in the corner and think about your actions.
Ahhhh, did I upset you with facts?
Not at all. There’s always people like you that root for the team they love no matter what. Apple could kill thousands of people and you’d still defend them no matter what. Just tired of you trying to bully people hear that have a different opinion than you do. You are an ass and I’m calling you out on that.
And right on cue, the salivating trolls come marching onto EVERY Apple site in existence by the truckload!
Forget trolls. What is your opinion on what is happening on iPhone?
The rest of the business seems to be doing ok. They have a lot of cash reserves to pull on. That won't save them from a roller coaster ride, short term, but iPhone is suffering. Do you agree with TCs line or do you think he is airbrushing bits? Are prices too high? Is competition playing a part? Are iPhones underperforming on features? Etc.
The smartphone market is mature. I can easily afford the top of the line iPhone model, but I see no reason to upgrade from my 7 Plus. I think a lot of people feel this way. Even if Apple dropped prices tomorrow, I still wouldn’t upgrade. My 7 Plus is great. I’d like FaceID, but that’s not enough of a reason to upgrade.
I dont think prices are the issue. There are iPhone models under $500. Top of the line is very pricey, but Apple has nice offerings at several price points. The market is saturated and mature and this was bound to happen.
If price wasn’t an issue why did Tim keep mentioning subsidies going away? Why did he mention not marketing the trade-in program enough? Both of those things scream price issues. Which was obvious when the front page of apple.com was displaying this:
I know many people with older phones and none of them WANT to upgrade. They don’t care about pricing. They are satisfied with their current devices. I was just helping a friend with her Mac today. It’s 8 years old and works fine. She sees no reason to upgrade. The same thing is happening with phones.
As I said, Apple has phone models at a variety of price points. Stop focusing on the top of the line. Phones are mature. The tech is mature. There aren’t a lot of new features. Faster, better screen, better camera...yawn. My phone is fast enough and the camera is fine. The days of annual upgrades are over.
Price is a factor, but it’s not the issue.
I don’t think higher prices is the only factor but it is A factor. It’s not like upgrade cycles just started lengthening this year. It’s possible too that the XR just introduced confusion to the lineup. People weren’t sure what to buy so they didn’t buy anything.
That could be, but I think it really comes down to how good these devices have become. We don’t upgrade our computers or any other piece of tech yearly. It’s crazy to buy a new phone every year, especially when there aren’t many new features. Truly new features, not just improved tech. At some point we reach “good enough” and I think that happened with the 7, maybe even the 6s. Upgrade cycles have been getting longer and longer ever since.
If Apple dropped the price of the XS by 20% tomorrow, I doubt it would impact overall sales very much. I think Apple could move more devices with promotions like a free year of Apple Music and/or increased iCloud storage amounts. After the first year, your customer is hooked and keeps paying. The “first world” (I hate that term) is saturated. Dropping prices alone won’t solve the problem. In the “developing” (I hate that term too) world, price is key. They need a cheap, break-even device that brings people into the ecosystem and gets them hooked on services. As much as I hate to think of Apple as a services company, that is the logical source of revenue growth. Recurring monthly charges.
You are right that regardless of price increases the upgrade cycle is lengthening. But I still think the price increases had an effect if for no other reason than the narrative around iPhone became about price. And maybe some people would have upgraded but balked when the flagship that used to start at $649 now started at $999. And then this year even the new cheaper model was $100 more than the flagship model was a couple years ago.
Personally I’d like to see Apple move to a good/better/best model for iPhones where good and better aren’t just the previous years phone at a cheaper price. Have 3 new phones that are good value for the money with no confusion over which one to get. The only thing that complicates this idea is size as some people want really big phones and some want an SE sized phone. I would just like to see the line up be clean. And only keep older models around for very price sensitive markets like India.
"Personally I’d like to see Apple move to a good/better/best model for iPhones where good and better aren’t just the previous years phone at a cheaper price."
Disagree. I think they should go back to Steve Jobs' idea of having only 2 lines => "Consumer" & "Pro"
And right on cue, the salivating trolls come marching onto EVERY Apple site in existence by the truckload!
Forget trolls. What is your opinion on what is happening on iPhone?
The rest of the business seems to be doing ok. They have a lot of cash reserves to pull on. That won't save them from a roller coaster ride, short term, but iPhone is suffering. Do you agree with TCs line or do you think he is airbrushing bits? Are prices too high? Is competition playing a part? Are iPhones underperforming on features? Etc.
The smartphone market is mature. I can easily afford the top of the line iPhone model, but I see no reason to upgrade from my 7 Plus. I think a lot of people feel this way. Even if Apple dropped prices tomorrow, I still wouldn’t upgrade. My 7 Plus is great. I’d like FaceID, but that’s not enough of a reason to upgrade.
I dont think prices are the issue. There are iPhone models under $500. Top of the line is very pricey, but Apple has nice offerings at several price points. The market is saturated and mature and this was bound to happen.
If price wasn’t an issue why did Tim keep mentioning subsidies going away? Why did he mention not marketing the trade-in program enough? Both of those things scream price issues. Which was obvious when the front page of apple.com was displaying this:
I know many people with older phones and none of them WANT to upgrade. They don’t care about pricing. They are satisfied with their current devices. I was just helping a friend with her Mac today. It’s 8 years old and works fine. She sees no reason to upgrade. The same thing is happening with phones.
As I said, Apple has phone models at a variety of price points. Stop focusing on the top of the line. Phones are mature. The tech is mature. There aren’t a lot of new features. Faster, better screen, better camera...yawn. My phone is fast enough and the camera is fine. The days of annual upgrades are over.
Price is a factor, but it’s not the issue.
I don’t think higher prices is the only factor but it is A factor. It’s not like upgrade cycles just started lengthening this year. It’s possible too that the XR just introduced confusion to the lineup. People weren’t sure what to buy so they didn’t buy anything.
That could be, but I think it really comes down to how good these devices have become. We don’t upgrade our computers or any other piece of tech yearly. It’s crazy to buy a new phone every year, especially when there aren’t many new features. Truly new features, not just improved tech. At some point we reach “good enough” and I think that happened with the 7, maybe even the 6s. Upgrade cycles have been getting longer and longer ever since.
If Apple dropped the price of the XS by 20% tomorrow, I doubt it would impact overall sales very much. I think Apple could move more devices with promotions like a free year of Apple Music and/or increased iCloud storage amounts. After the first year, your customer is hooked and keeps paying. The “first world” (I hate that term) is saturated. Dropping prices alone won’t solve the problem. In the “developing” (I hate that term too) world, price is key. They need a cheap, break-even device that brings people into the ecosystem and gets them hooked on services. As much as I hate to think of Apple as a services company, that is the logical source of revenue growth. Recurring monthly charges.
You are right that regardless of price increases the upgrade cycle is lengthening. But I still think the price increases had an effect if for no other reason than the narrative around iPhone became about price. And maybe some people would have upgraded but balked when the flagship that used to start at $649 now started at $999. And then this year even the new cheaper model was $100 more than the flagship model was a couple years ago.
Personally I’d like to see Apple move to a good/better/best model for iPhones where good and better aren’t just the previous years phone at a cheaper price. Have 3 new phones that are good value for the money with no confusion over which one to get. The only thing that complicates this idea is size as some people want really big phones and some want an SE sized phone. I would just like to see the line up be clean. And only keep older models around for very price sensitive markets like India.
The narrative is definitely about price, unfortunately. It's like bashing BMW for selling the i8 at such a ridiculous price while ignoring all the other perfectly good cars that BMW sells. I agree with you on good/better/best, but I think that's kind of what we have now. It's just a matter of perception. Keeping an older models in production for another year or two and making it the "good" tier is a lot cheaper than designing three new phones each year, plus all of the production and tooling costs associated. You can get a new iPhone 7 Plus for under $500 today. I doubt they could deliver a newly designed "good" tier phone every year for that price.
I also agree that the product line is confusing, and that goes for everything, not just iPhones. Thank goodness we're not back to the Quadra and Performa days (yet), but things have gotten bad.
Apple does have good/better/best from a pricing standpoint but there’s nothing exciting about a 2 or 3 year old phone. If Apple is transitioning into a services company then they may need to be willing to sacrifice some hardware margin as they transition. I think Apple absolutely could design a really good phone for $500 (look what they did with the iPad announced in March). But are they willing to sacrifice some margin to do so? Time will tell.
Quite a frenzy here. Letter on Apple website may calm those in need. Over 100 million device activated over 12 months. Isn’t that about the number of Amazon Prime members pre-holiday over their whole existence? Any company CEO would just about kill for those stats.
Apple is doomed in China. Even if Trump reverse his hostile altitude toward China, Apple has lost all the goodwill of Chinese people. If you don't believe this will happen, take a look of Samsung sales in China. Its market share is at low single digits. Chinese used to be fond of Apple due to Apple helping manufacturing jobs in China. Trump wants Apple to being those SLAVE jobs back to US. He says by avoiding tariffs he imposed on China, Apple can make up the high costs of labor in US. This idiot ignores Apple's market share in China. Apparently he doesn't care if Apple sell iPhones in China. This has never been the American way of doing business. Why the red states white Americans believe in him?
Speaking of which, this is an interesting take with respect to China
And right on cue, the salivating trolls come marching onto EVERY Apple site in existence by the truckload!
Forget trolls. What is your opinion on what is happening on iPhone?
The rest of the business seems to be doing ok. They have a lot of cash reserves to pull on. That won't save them from a roller coaster ride, short term, but iPhone is suffering. Do you agree with TCs line or do you think he is airbrushing bits? Are prices too high? Is competition playing a part? Are iPhones underperforming on features? Etc.
The smartphone market is mature. I can easily afford the top of the line iPhone model, but I see no reason to upgrade from my 7 Plus. I think a lot of people feel this way. Even if Apple dropped prices tomorrow, I still wouldn’t upgrade. My 7 Plus is great. I’d like FaceID, but that’s not enough of a reason to upgrade.
I dont think prices are the issue. There are iPhone models under $500. Top of the line is very pricey, but Apple has nice offerings at several price points. The market is saturated and mature and this was bound to happen.
If price wasn’t an issue why did Tim keep mentioning subsidies going away? Why did he mention not marketing the trade-in program enough? Both of those things scream price issues. Which was obvious when the front page of apple.com was displaying this:
I know many people with older phones and none of them WANT to upgrade. They don’t care about pricing. They are satisfied with their current devices. I was just helping a friend with her Mac today. It’s 8 years old and works fine. She sees no reason to upgrade. The same thing is happening with phones.
As I said, Apple has phone models at a variety of price points. Stop focusing on the top of the line. Phones are mature. The tech is mature. There aren’t a lot of new features. Faster, better screen, better camera...yawn. My phone is fast enough and the camera is fine. The days of annual upgrades are over.
Price is a factor, but it’s not the issue.
I don’t think higher prices is the only factor but it is A factor. It’s not like upgrade cycles just started lengthening this year. It’s possible too that the XR just introduced confusion to the lineup. People weren’t sure what to buy so they didn’t buy anything.
DEAD ON with the XR confusion. A lot of people went into the Apple store prepared to drop $1000+ on a XS and left with a cheaper XR with a larger screen....
Or went into the store and left with nothing. If the XR was doing well why would Apple be marketing it $300 cheaper (with trade-in) on the front page of their website? Why would carriers like Sprint and T-Mobile be offering it for free with new activations?
Oh of course. People went in with $1000+ and left with nothing. DOOMED!
The stock will open down about 7%. That’s after being down almost 30% over the last quarter. But keep covering your eyes and ears if it makes you feel better.
Buying opportunity.
Unfortunately the market overall doesn’t seem to be in buying mode.
And right on cue, the salivating trolls come marching onto EVERY Apple site in existence by the truckload!
Forget trolls. What is your opinion on what is happening on iPhone?
The rest of the business seems to be doing ok. They have a lot of cash reserves to pull on. That won't save them from a roller coaster ride, short term, but iPhone is suffering. Do you agree with TCs line or do you think he is airbrushing bits? Are prices too high? Is competition playing a part? Are iPhones underperforming on features? Etc.
The smartphone market is mature. I can easily afford the top of the line iPhone model, but I see no reason to upgrade from my 7 Plus. I think a lot of people feel this way. Even if Apple dropped prices tomorrow, I still wouldn’t upgrade. My 7 Plus is great. I’d like FaceID, but that’s not enough of a reason to upgrade.
I dont think prices are the issue. There are iPhone models under $500. Top of the line is very pricey, but Apple has nice offerings at several price points. The market is saturated and mature and this was bound to happen.
If price wasn’t an issue why did Tim keep mentioning subsidies going away? Why did he mention not marketing the trade-in program enough? Both of those things scream price issues. Which was obvious when the front page of apple.com was displaying this:
I know many people with older phones and none of them WANT to upgrade. They don’t care about pricing. They are satisfied with their current devices. I was just helping a friend with her Mac today. It’s 8 years old and works fine. She sees no reason to upgrade. The same thing is happening with phones.
As I said, Apple has phone models at a variety of price points. Stop focusing on the top of the line. Phones are mature. The tech is mature. There aren’t a lot of new features. Faster, better screen, better camera...yawn. My phone is fast enough and the camera is fine. The days of annual upgrades are over.
Price is a factor, but it’s not the issue.
I don’t think higher prices is the only factor but it is A factor. It’s not like upgrade cycles just started lengthening this year. It’s possible too that the XR just introduced confusion to the lineup. People weren’t sure what to buy so they didn’t buy anything.
That could be, but I think it really comes down to how good these devices have become. We don’t upgrade our computers or any other piece of tech yearly. It’s crazy to buy a new phone every year, especially when there aren’t many new features. Truly new features, not just improved tech. At some point we reach “good enough” and I think that happened with the 7, maybe even the 6s. Upgrade cycles have been getting longer and longer ever since.
If Apple dropped the price of the XS by 20% tomorrow, I doubt it would impact overall sales very much. I think Apple could move more devices with promotions like a free year of Apple Music and/or increased iCloud storage amounts. After the first year, your customer is hooked and keeps paying. The “first world” (I hate that term) is saturated. Dropping prices alone won’t solve the problem. In the “developing” (I hate that term too) world, price is key. They need a cheap, break-even device that brings people into the ecosystem and gets them hooked on services. As much as I hate to think of Apple as a services company, that is the logical source of revenue growth. Recurring monthly charges.
You are right that regardless of price increases the upgrade cycle is lengthening. But I still think the price increases had an effect if for no other reason than the narrative around iPhone became about price. And maybe some people would have upgraded but balked when the flagship that used to start at $649 now started at $999. And then this year even the new cheaper model was $100 more than the flagship model was a couple years ago.
Personally I’d like to see Apple move to a good/better/best model for iPhones where good and better aren’t just the previous years phone at a cheaper price. Have 3 new phones that are good value for the money with no confusion over which one to get. The only thing that complicates this idea is size as some people want really big phones and some want an SE sized phone. I would just like to see the line up be clean. And only keep older models around for very price sensitive markets like India.
"Personally I’d like to see Apple move to a good/better/best model for iPhones where good and better aren’t just the previous years phone at a cheaper price."
Disagree. I think they should go back to Steve Jobs' idea of having only 2 lines => "Consumer" & "Pro"
Comments
Where could Apple strike Gold?
1. Cars.
2. Glasses.
I have an idea that (hopefully) Cook will read that would make Apple Glasses a miracle device. If Apple can think of better ideas than a poor forum commenter then they will strike gold.
3. Health.
Apple is already a leader here.
Now as far as services:
1. Shopping.
A pre-installed app that can act as a mall, an "eBay" and an "amazon" all in one would pull in billions.
2. Expanding the TV app.
Adding an Apple Service, a possible sports service and movies in theaters would pull in more billions.
3. Expanding Didi.
Apple could also pre-install Didi into iOS devices and go head on with Uber/Lyft in western countries.
I also agree that the product line is confusing, and that goes for everything, not just iPhones. Thank goodness we're not back to the Quadra and Performa days (yet), but things have gotten bad.
The Mate 20 Pro retails for the same price as an iPhone XR in India. That makes the iPhone XS far less attractive. Obviously in China, the Chinese brands have an edge when it comes to all the key handset areas. Looks like everything that could work against Apple there, actually did work against them.
Whilst iOS is certainly "sticky" it's not sticky enough that people will pay twice the price of an Android phone that does 90% of what the iPhone does. I love Apple, I'm dismayed when a friend switches away from iOS. I'm dismayed not at the friend, but at Apple's prices; because I'm in the same boat: I will not pay Cook's prices.
I agree, I know a few people who would rather a smaller iOS phone. But for some reason after years of holding out on a big screen phone, Apple now doesn't offer a smaller one much to the disappointment of people with smaller hands.
This is wrong. Apple market share has not been growing recently. And its market share in India is also declining according to a recent AI article.
Disagree. I think they should go back to Steve Jobs' idea of having only 2 lines => "Consumer" & "Pro"