Apple services & Apple Card 'too late to the game,' HSBC downgrades stock

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Comments

  • Reply 41 of 83
    airnerdairnerd Posts: 671member
    mac_dog said:
    Apple is still a disrupter. The credit card, insurance  industries are possibly the last of the sectors that, thus far, have skated by without any real innovation. And they’re soiling themselves. 
    What innovation has Apple brought to the credit card? What are they doing that no one else is doing?
    Yeah, this is what I want to see in the comments too.  Lots of hype about how Apple is fixing the CC game, and I don't see it.  It sounds more secure...when you can use apple pay.  But I already use apple pay when I can which makes the current CC I have it tied to more secure.  

    So what is my enticement?  I have better card benefits on my current CC.  And guess what, if someone skims the number I'm alerted within seconds of fraud use and I'm never on the hook for the charges.  On top of that when Chase issues me my new CC number, Apple pay has it immediately so I don't have to wait for the new card. 


    I'm all for APple expanding its services offered.  But I am not seeing how this CC changes the game in any way.  It is likely to be adopted by hardcore Apple ecosystem users so it will do just fine.  But it isn't going to convert anyone who is shopping for a CC, and limits itself to Apple users.  
  • Reply 42 of 83
    airnerdairnerd Posts: 671member
    Soli said:
    mac_dog said:
    Apple is still a disrupter. The credit card, insurance  industries are possibly the last of the sectors that, thus far, have skated by without any real innovation. And they’re soiling themselves. 
    What innovation has Apple brought to the credit card? What are they doing that no one else is doing?
    A: Higher rewards when using Apple Pay (over the physical card) to help push the adoption of a more secure payment system.
    The offered rewards are lower than my current card.  While it may help those that own the new CC to use apple pay, it is no incentive to convert customers to the new CC.  
    chemengin
  • Reply 43 of 83
    SoliSoli Posts: 9,327member
    airnerd said:
    Soli said:
    mac_dog said:
    Apple is still a disrupter. The credit card, insurance  industries are possibly the last of the sectors that, thus far, have skated by without any real innovation. And they’re soiling themselves. 
    What innovation has Apple brought to the credit card? What are they doing that no one else is doing?
    A: Higher rewards when using Apple Pay (over the physical card) to help push the adoption of a more secure payment system.
    The offered rewards are lower than my current card.  While it may help those that own the new CC to use apple pay, it is no incentive to convert customers to the new CC.  
    What card do you have that offers you better than 2% on Apple Pay-based purchases and better than 3% on purchases through Apple?
    edited April 10
  • Reply 44 of 83
    gilly33gilly33 Posts: 293member
    Another analyst drivel. When this group of Apple services take off they will spew same lame crap they typically do as they eat crow. 
  • Reply 45 of 83
    shahhet2shahhet2 Posts: 149member
    Soli said:
    airnerd said:
    Soli said:
    mac_dog said:
    Apple is still a disrupter. The credit card, insurance  industries are possibly the last of the sectors that, thus far, have skated by without any real innovation. And they’re soiling themselves. 
    What innovation has Apple brought to the credit card? What are they doing that no one else is doing?
    A: Higher rewards when using Apple Pay (over the physical card) to help push the adoption of a more secure payment system.
    The offered rewards are lower than my current card.  While it may help those that own the new CC to use apple pay, it is no incentive to convert customers to the new CC.  
    What card do you have that offers you better than 2% on Apple Pay-based purchases and better than 3% on purchases through Apple?

    You already know and I have already pointed out that Citi Double Cash gives 2% on everything and not only just 2% for Apple Pay. (Or Fidelity 2% rewards visa)
    As far as Security is concerned, you can add that card to Apple Pay and have same privileges. (Like current Credit Card are not secure enough)
    Addition to that there are many other benefits which are better and each card will have their plus/minuses.
    For e.g. this offers 24 month extended protection, which is much better benefit in itself.
    It also has Price Protection, where you can use Citi Rewind if you find lower price, Damage and theft protection or secondary car insurance.
    Enough with the FUD.
  • Reply 46 of 83
    SoliSoli Posts: 9,327member
    shahhet2 said:
    Soli said:
    airnerd said:
    Soli said:
    mac_dog said:
    Apple is still a disrupter. The credit card, insurance  industries are possibly the last of the sectors that, thus far, have skated by without any real innovation. And they’re soiling themselves. 
    What innovation has Apple brought to the credit card? What are they doing that no one else is doing?
    A: Higher rewards when using Apple Pay (over the physical card) to help push the adoption of a more secure payment system.
    The offered rewards are lower than my current card.  While it may help those that own the new CC to use apple pay, it is no incentive to convert customers to the new CC.  
    What card do you have that offers you better than 2% on Apple Pay-based purchases and better than 3% on purchases through Apple?

    You already know and I have already pointed out that Citi Double Cash gives 2% on everything and not only just 2% for Apple Pay. (Or Fidelity 2% rewards visa)
    As far as Security is concerned, you can add that card to Apple Pay and have same privileges. (Like current Credit Card are not secure enough)
    Addition to that there are many other benefits which are better and each card will have their plus/minuses.
    For e.g. this offers 24 month extended protection, which is much better benefit in itself.
    It also has Price Protection, where you can use Citi Rewind if you find lower price, Damage and theft protection or secondary car insurance.
    Enough with the FUD.
    So how is 2% on Apple Pay for Citi lower than 2% on Apple Pay for Card? How is 3% at Apple lower than 2% on Citi? How are rewards after your billing cycle plus the due date and whatever other timeframe or requirements they tack on better than rewards given that day?

    Again, you also ignore all the fees that Citi charges as well as all the other intrinsic benefits that make Card a good get for many. Are facts really that hard for you or are you training to be an alt-right politician?
    edited April 10
  • Reply 47 of 83
    rogifan_newrogifan_new Posts: 4,213member
    airnerd said:
    mac_dog said:
    Apple is still a disrupter. The credit card, insurance  industries are possibly the last of the sectors that, thus far, have skated by without any real innovation. And they’re soiling themselves. 
    What innovation has Apple brought to the credit card? What are they doing that no one else is doing?
    Yeah, this is what I want to see in the comments too.  Lots of hype about how Apple is fixing the CC game, and I don't see it.  It sounds more secure...when you can use apple pay.  But I already use apple pay when I can which makes the current CC I have it tied to more secure.  

    So what is my enticement?  I have better card benefits on my current CC.  And guess what, if someone skims the number I'm alerted within seconds of fraud use and I'm never on the hook for the charges.  On top of that when Chase issues me my new CC number, Apple pay has it immediately so I don't have to wait for the new card. 


    I'm all for APple expanding its services offered.  But I am not seeing how this CC changes the game in any way.  It is likely to be adopted by hardcore Apple ecosystem users so it will do just fine.  But it isn't going to convert anyone who is shopping for a CC, and limits itself to Apple users.  
    To me all of these services announcements are an answer to the question how do we monetize our existing customer base. I guess in that sense they don’t have to be groundbreaking or innovative. But I liked Apple better when the goal was making insanely great products.
  • Reply 48 of 83
    rogifan_newrogifan_new Posts: 4,213member
    shahhet2 said:
    Soli said:
    airnerd said:
    Soli said:
    mac_dog said:
    Apple is still a disrupter. The credit card, insurance  industries are possibly the last of the sectors that, thus far, have skated by without any real innovation. And they’re soiling themselves. 
    What innovation has Apple brought to the credit card? What are they doing that no one else is doing?
    A: Higher rewards when using Apple Pay (over the physical card) to help push the adoption of a more secure payment system.
    The offered rewards are lower than my current card.  While it may help those that own the new CC to use apple pay, it is no incentive to convert customers to the new CC.  
    What card do you have that offers you better than 2% on Apple Pay-based purchases and better than 3% on purchases through Apple?

    You already know and I have already pointed out that Citi Double Cash gives 2% on everything and not only just 2% for Apple Pay. (Or Fidelity 2% rewards visa)
    As far as Security is concerned, you can add that card to Apple Pay and have same privileges. (Like current Credit Card are not secure enough)
    Addition to that there are many other benefits which are better and each card will have their plus/minuses.
    For e.g. this offers 24 month extended protection, which is much better benefit in itself.
    It also has Price Protection, where you can use Citi Rewind if you find lower price, Damage and theft protection or secondary car insurance.
    Enough with the FUD.
    I’m curious how many people spend that much on Apple products/services that the really 3% matters. I’m sure initial adoption of the card will be decent but there’s nothing really special about it.
  • Reply 49 of 83
    rogifan_newrogifan_new Posts: 4,213member
    According to the NY Post Apple paid over $485M for Texture. Assuming they had less than 200k subs (which is what the NY Times reported) that would mean Apple paid at 20x multiple for a magazine app. Crazy. https://nypost.com/2019/04/09/apple-to-shutter-texture-and-replace-it-with-news-app/amp/?__twitter_impression=true
  • Reply 50 of 83
    rwx9901rwx9901 Posts: 85member
    Late to the game with TV programming for sure me thinks.  However, how are they late to the show with Apple Card?  Mark my words we'll see other credit card giants follow suit with the way Apple has approached the credit card game.
    Soli
  • Reply 51 of 83
    zoetmbzoetmb Posts: 2,490member
    We've heard this all before from other brilliant industry analysts:  

    John C. Dvorak, 1984
    “The Macintosh uses an experimental pointing device called a "mouse". There is no evidence that people want to use these things. I don’t want one of these new fangled devices."
     
    former Apple VP Gaston Bastiaens, January 1996.
    “Within the next two months, Sony will acquire Apple. … Sony will be the white knight who will step into the picture."
     
    Michael Dell, October 1997
    "I'd shut [Apple] down and give the money back to the shareholders."
     
    Hiawatha Bray, Boston Globe, 1998.
    "The iMac will only sell to some of the true believers. The iMac doesn’t include a floppy disk drive for doing file backups or sharing of data. ... The iMac will fail. 
    10/5/2000   Michael S. Malone
    Apple R.I.P.
    “Nevertheless, the bloom is off the rose. The incredible run-up Apple stock has enjoyed since Steve's return is over, and the sheen of success that had enveloped the company has been tarnished. 
    A temporary setback? Don't be too sure. Unlike, say, Hewlett-Packard, Apple has always been a company that deals poorly with failure. When things go bad at Apple, they go very bad. “
    5/21/2001  Cliff Edwards  
    Commentary: Sorry, Steve: Here's Why Apple Stores Won't Work 
    “New retail outlets aren't going to fix Apple's sales “
     
    12/23/2006 Bill Ray (Mobile)
    “Why the Apple phone will fail, and fail badly”
    It's the Pippin all over again”
     
    1/14/2007 Matthew Lynn
    Apple iPhone Will Fail in a Late, Defensive Move
    “…Don't let that fool you into thinking that it matters. The big competitors in the mobile-phone industry such as Nokia Oyjand Motorola Inc.won't be whispering nervously into their clamshells over a new threat to their business…
    The iPhone is nothing more than a luxury bauble that will appeal to a few gadget freaks. In terms of its impact on the industry, the iPhone is less relevant”
     
    3/28/2007 John Dvorak
    Apple should pull the plug in the iPhone
    Commentary:  Company risks its reputation in competitive business
    … Now compare that effort and overlay the mobile handset business. This is not an emerging business. In fact it's gone so far that it's in the process of consolidation with probably two players dominating everything, Nokia Corp…and Motorola Inc.” 
     

    In fiscal 2018, Apple Services was a $37 billion business, a 24% increase over fiscal 2017.   If it were spun off, it would be a Fortune 500 company.   

    The proof of Apple's success in the credit card space will be when Chase, Citibank, HSBC and others will rush to issue cards that emulate the Apple Card, which I believe they soon will in a defensive move, although it will be difficult for them to do so because their profits are in late fees and annual fees.   While I don't have data to back it up, it seems to me that the Apple Card is going to be a huge.  No annual fee and no problem with late payments?   Huge.   And yes, there are some cards out there who might have a certain benefit that's equal to or better than one of Apple's benefits.  But you have to look at the benefits as a package AND it's not what's out there if you look for it - it's what the average consumer has that counts and most consumers have high interest cards with annual fees if the card comes with any benefits.   

    As far as AppleTV+ is concerned, there are too many players out there, Apple is getting in late and there are more players coming, like Disney and AT&T Warner.   With those new players, the studios with streaming services are initially going to attempt to be successful by keeping their content from the other services.   So Netflix definitely and Amazon maybe is going to lose most of the Disney and Warner titles.   The question is, what is Apple going to get?   If Apple's reliance is going to be primarily on original content (which is where Netflix is going and where Amazon has attempted), then the question becomes is their original content better than the competition and even if it is, how many different streaming services will the average person subscribe to?   I would say two services, three tops.    If Apple really wanted to be in this business, they should have bought Warner Bros. and not let AT&T get it or even gone up against Disney and Comcast to acquire 20th Century Fox.    On the other hand, one would be a fool to under-estimate Apple.  

    Soli
  • Reply 52 of 83
    When are we finally going to criminalize the professional practice of publicly manipulating stocks with unfounded “predictions”?  
    tenthousandthings
  • Reply 53 of 83
    zoetmbzoetmb Posts: 2,490member
    shahhet2 said:
    Soli said:
    airnerd said:
    Soli said:
    mac_dog said:
    Apple is still a disrupter. The credit card, insurance  industries are possibly the last of the sectors that, thus far, have skated by without any real innovation. And they’re soiling themselves. 
    What innovation has Apple brought to the credit card? What are they doing that no one else is doing?
    A: Higher rewards when using Apple Pay (over the physical card) to help push the adoption of a more secure payment system.
    The offered rewards are lower than my current card.  While it may help those that own the new CC to use apple pay, it is no incentive to convert customers to the new CC.  
    What card do you have that offers you better than 2% on Apple Pay-based purchases and better than 3% on purchases through Apple?

    You already know and I have already pointed out that Citi Double Cash gives 2% on everything and not only just 2% for Apple Pay. (Or Fidelity 2% rewards visa)
    As far as Security is concerned, you can add that card to Apple Pay and have same privileges. (Like current Credit Card are not secure enough)
    Addition to that there are many other benefits which are better and each card will have their plus/minuses.
    For e.g. this offers 24 month extended protection, which is much better benefit in itself.
    It also has Price Protection, where you can use Citi Rewind if you find lower price, Damage and theft protection or secondary car insurance.
    Enough with the FUD.
    None of that matters.   Citi must have over 100 different credit cards.   The issue isn't whether Citi (or anyone else) happens to have a card that matches or beats some of what Apple is providing.  The question is how effectively they market it and what the demand for it is.   All of the credit card offering banks have made credit cards unduly complex and they've overwhelmed consumers with offers.   I get offers in the mail every day.  I don't even look to see if they're better than what I have today - I throw them all in the trash and since there's a trash can next to the mailboxes in my apartment building, I see that many other people do as well.   And while it might be foolish for consumers to care about the Apple brand, they do.   How many consumers care about the Citibank or Chase or HSBC or Fidelity brands?  The issue isn't what the cards actually offer - it's what is the overall perception of what the card offers to the typical consumer and especially to Apple fans.   It's also foolish for consumers to care whether their card is "ordinary", silver, gold, platinum or black.  But they do.   And because of all that, Apple is going to do very well.    

    Apple is very smart.  Just as when Steve Jobs returned to Apple and simplified the product line into four quadrants:  Pro Desktop, Consumer Desktop, Pro Laptop, Consumer Laptop, Apple is issuing ONE credit card.  Interest rates may vary depending upon one's credit rating, but it's one card.  No fee.   Simple cash back program.    Increased security.  Very easy to understand.   Having said that, there is one segment of the credit card market that probably wouldn't be interested in Apple's card and that is those who use their card to collect airline mileage/hotel program points, which they probably care about more than the 2% cash back.    And it also doesn't seem to have the attributes that would make it a practical business card issued to employees by corporations.  But other than that, IMO (and I could well be wrong), it's going to be huge.   I think under-estimating Apple, even with their occasional failures, is a massive mistake.  
    Soli
  • Reply 54 of 83
    AF_HittAF_Hitt Posts: 89member
    tjwolf said:
    With regards to the credit card, he severely underestimates Apple's brand power.  The card & associated benefits (usability, rewards, etc.) are exactly what a typical Apple customer is looking for.  I bet they'll have tens of millions of card members within the first year.  I'll certainly be one of them - what's not to like: 3% off Apple gear! easy visualization of expenditures, better security.....and a lovely physical card to boot!
    Completely agree. Between the straight 10% military discount they just rolled out and the 3% back on anything Apple (including subscriptions), having an Apple Card as a supplement to other cards is an absolute no brainer.
  • Reply 55 of 83
    1348513485 Posts: 77member
    tjwolf said:
    They'll have to spend massively to license additional content from the established content providers - if their plan is really to be a Netflix/Prime competitor.  Which, to me, isn't altogether clear they are.  
    That's the whole thing in a nutshell--It's not just that *we* might not be clear on what is going to happen, but is Apple really clear about what they're trying to do? At this point they have some big names in the lab so the potential is there, but I haven't heard about any particular show/series they're going to offer that just wows! me. A TV morning show drama? Yawn. Oprah-Anything? Yawn (besides, I'll never forgive her for inflicting Dr. Phil and Dr. Oz on us).

    I don't care if Apple is late to anything, because usually they can make up the gap, but clarity of focus hasn't been communicated to us in the masses yet.
  • Reply 56 of 83
    Fwiw I plan to get an Apple Card as soon as it becomes available in Canada.
    With no annual fees and no fees when you travel (and pay for stuff in ‘foreign currency’) it will be totally worth it to me.
    currently pay 2.5% fee for conversion of any foreign currencies back to Cdn$.
  • Reply 57 of 83
    I do fault Apple on gaming on iOS. If they had understood it and it’s potential, along with a dedicated first-party “pro” remote — and also didn’t let the Games section of the store run into the ground with “Get” IAP junk — it could’ve been had way earlier. They may redeem themselves with Apple Arcade. 
  • Reply 58 of 83
    13485 said:
    tjwolf said:
    They'll have to spend massively to license additional content from the established content providers - if their plan is really to be a Netflix/Prime competitor.  Which, to me, isn't altogether clear they are.  
    That's the whole thing in a nutshell--It's not just that *we* might not be clear on what is going to happen, but is Apple really clear about what they're trying to do? At this point they have some big names in the lab so the potential is there, but I haven't heard about any particular show/series they're going to offer that just wows! me. A TV morning show drama? Yawn. Oprah-Anything? Yawn (besides, I'll never forgive her for inflicting Dr. Phil and Dr. Oz on us).

    I don't care if Apple is late to anything, because usually they can make up the gap, but clarity of focus hasn't been communicated to us in the masses yet.
    Not disagreeing about things being unclear, but I will argue the point about a television-news-show comedy/drama series -- ever hear of the Mary Tyler Moore Show? -- I think that was a minor hit. ... And the Oprah introduction was way over the top and just kind of wrong, but you are kidding yourself if you think an Oprah + Prince Harry project isn't going to get traction with, for example, my spouse.

    I'm concerned the Ron Moore sci-fi drama is dead -- he isn't in the promotional photo, and as far as I know we haven't heard anything about it beyond the initial news, which worries me -- that's one of the things I was looking forward to.
    edited April 10
  • Reply 59 of 83
    slurpyslurpy Posts: 5,187member
    Yeah, HSBC can go fuck themsleves. Completely clueless analysts. There's no such thing as "late to the game" when it comes to Apple. I can't think of a single product they've made that "failed" cause it was "late". Apple Music was also "late to the game", people here and other places mocked up and claimed it stood no chance. Same with almost every product Apple has ever released.
  • Reply 60 of 83
    hentaiboyhentaiboy Posts: 1,029member
    The apple card is something no other card can even come close to offer.
    Do you wish to elaborate?
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