Tim Cook wanted Apple to fight US DOJ in court over encryption

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Comments

  • Reply 21 of 46
    StrangeDaysStrangeDays Posts: 12,325member

    wizard69 said:
    tzm41 said:
    Cue "Timmy should stay out of politics" comments in 3...2...1
    Well he probably should.   At the very least he needs to keep an eye on Mac development as Apple has really missed the boat there. 
    Why, because conservatives have their panties in a bunch over equal civil rights for gays because that isn't what they think their old book says? That's when the Cook-politics whining started, right? Never mind that Apple is and has always been a liberal, hippie-run company? 

    Apple already explained the Mac Pro issue -- they bet on parallel processing and it didn't work out, and it took time to realize this and come up with an all new design. Not really a big deal, since almost no one has a MP anyhow, single-digits of all Macs. The rest of the Mac line is fine -- iMacs are great, Mini is great, and despite the claims of some clickbaiting pro-trolls without any data, the MBs are great. If not, build a linux box or whatever the neckbeards are using these days.
    edited April 2019 cornchipDetnator
  • Reply 22 of 46
    StrangeDaysStrangeDays Posts: 12,325member

    gatorguy said:
    flydog said:
    lkrupp said:
    Rule number one. Don’t EVER pick a fight with politicians or the government. If they come after you, fine, fight ‘em but don’t attack them first. But it is slightly hypocritical to want to fight the U.S. but turn then around and cow-tow to China and India.
    Not hypocritical at all.  Apple is a US company and most of its employees reside here, as does Tim Cook.   Who cares what India or China do.
    Demonstrably Apple does since they are willing to bend their deep-rooted convictions to stay there. 
    What evidence do you provide that they are bending their policies to remain in China? Have they not served markets all over the globe with policies one would not tolerate within our native borders, for decades? Regardless of whether you believe Apple is supposed to only serve markets with the unique and desirable condition of governing as seen in the US, where is the bending of behavior? 
    radarthekat
  • Reply 23 of 46
    gatorguygatorguy Posts: 23,510member
    Soli said:
    gatorguy said:
    flydog said:
    lkrupp said:
    Rule number one. Don’t EVER pick a fight with politicians or the government. If they come after you, fine, fight ‘em but don’t attack them first. But it is slightly hypocritical to want to fight the U.S. but turn then around and cow-tow to China and India.
    Not hypocritical at all.  Apple is a US company and most of its employees reside here, as does Tim Cook.   Who cares what India or China do.
    Demonstrably Apple does since they are willing to bend their deep-rooted convictions to stay there. 
    Are you saying the US and every state only has laws that are in-line with Apple’s so-called “deep-rooted convictions”?
    Obviously not. That's why Apple modifies their position and public statements as needed for the markets that are or may be profitable for them despite what they may say in some other one. I think most companies do that. 
    muthuk_vanalingam
  • Reply 24 of 46
    racerhomie3racerhomie3 Posts: 1,257member
    flydog said:
    lkrupp said:
    Rule number one. Don’t EVER pick a fight with politicians or the government. If they come after you, fine, fight ‘em but don’t attack them first. But it is slightly hypocritical to want to fight the U.S. but turn then around and cow-tow to China and India.
    Not hypocritical at all.  Apple is a US company and most of its employees reside here, as does Tim Cook.   Who cares what India or China do.
    I agree with you on India ,but China matters since thats where  does most of its manufacturing.
  • Reply 25 of 46
    radarthekatradarthekat Posts: 3,574moderator
    gatorguy said:
    flydog said:
    lkrupp said:
    Rule number one. Don’t EVER pick a fight with politicians or the government. If they come after you, fine, fight ‘em but don’t attack them first. But it is slightly hypocritical to want to fight the U.S. but turn then around and cow-tow to China and India.
    Not hypocritical at all.  Apple is a US company and most of its employees reside here, as does Tim Cook.   Who cares what India or China do.
    Demonstrably Apple does since they are willing to bend their deep-rooted convictions to stay there. 
    You would actually make the argument that a manufacturer of climbing rope should not do business in China because their product might be used to hang a dissident?  

    Because that’s what your stance amounts to.  Too bad you don’t realize that. 
  • Reply 26 of 46
    gatorguygatorguy Posts: 23,510member
    gatorguy said:
    flydog said:
    lkrupp said:
    Rule number one. Don’t EVER pick a fight with politicians or the government. If they come after you, fine, fight ‘em but don’t attack them first. But it is slightly hypocritical to want to fight the U.S. but turn then around and cow-tow to China and India.
    Not hypocritical at all.  Apple is a US company and most of its employees reside here, as does Tim Cook.   Who cares what India or China do.
    Demonstrably Apple does since they are willing to bend their deep-rooted convictions to stay there. 
    You would actually make the argument that a manufacturer of climbing rope should not do business in China because their product might be used to hang a dissident?  

    Because that’s what your stance amounts to.  Too bad you don’t realize that. 
    Huh? That comparison didn't make sense the first time you used it and certainly doesn't now.

    What does selling rope haver to do with Apple's "core beliefs" morphing or going entirely silent in some markets? Are they really core beliefs if they'll put them aside to enter profitable markets? , Are they core beliefs if they aren't willing to leave some profits on the table in markets that don't share their values?  Are they actually core beliefs if Apple isn't willing to go to the mat when told to weaken their privacy safeguards in countries that demand access to user data or else go home?

    ...And you want to compare that to selling rope?? IMO it smells more like a marketing plan than core beliefs. 

    There's absolutely nothing wrong with going into every region and market they think will deliver profits. A lot of companies do that. Their sole reason for existence is profit, and that's OK, it doesn't make a company evil. That some folks here might question Apple's dedication to "core values" when they simply go silent on the subject when it's inconvenient elsewhere in the world should be easily understood by you Radar. No one is saying Apple is bad, That's business, Apple doesn't exist to be nice guys with white hats willing to take a bullet for the little guy. Everything works to draw in more money and when something doesn't  they'll stop talking it and move on to something else to raise awareness of the Apple brand. 

    Apple is a for profit corporation that adjusts its marketing to play to the audience region by region, common stuff that Apple is far better at than most. This "fight the evil DoJ" plays well here, a great lead-in for a sales pitch. "CORE VALUES!!", fly that flag. 
    edited April 2019 muthuk_vanalingam
  • Reply 27 of 46
    boboliciousbobolicious Posts: 1,063member
    for consideration:  

    should reference be gods devils of silicon valley ?

    of boiling frogs & trojan horses...?

    I understand photos tags every image - where is the off switch...?

    just click 'agree' because (of course) we have 'choice'...
    edited April 2019
  • Reply 28 of 46
    Soli said:
    lkrupp said:
    But it is slightly hypocritical to want to fight the U.S. but turn then around and cow-tow to China and India.
    Not at all. You have to abide by the laws of a nation. Wanting to go to court is a valid (if abused) legal process in the US, Cook is a US citizen, and Apple a US corporation.

    Leading by example is also how you best invoke the change you want. For instance, you may have a policy on your home where you wash dishes by hand to save energy and water, but I doubt that you would force that on another household. You could lead by example and talk up the reasons why, but it wouldn’t be hypocritical to go to a dinner party and let them use their dishwasher, but it would be weird if you insist to wash your silverware by hand or say you won’t attend unless they get rid of the appliance.

    Adding to your point, I had said this on a previous thread - the double standard is not Apple's behaviour in and out of the US. The double standard is some posters here expecting developers to adhere to the App Store rules, since it is Apple's domain and then expecting Apple to not adhere to local laws of the countries it operates in.
    Soli
  • Reply 29 of 46
    Soli said:
    lkrupp said:
    Soli said:
    lkrupp said:
    But it is slightly hypocritical to want to fight the U.S. but turn then around and cow-tow to China and India.
    Not at all. You have to abide by the laws of a nation. Wanting to go to court is a valid (if abused) legal process in the US, Cook is a US citizen, and Apple a US corporation.

    Leading by example is also how you best invoke the change you want. For instance, you may have a policy on your home where you wash dishes by hand to save energy and water, but I doubt that you would force that on another household. You could lead by example and talk up the reasons why, but it wouldn’t be hypocritical to go to a dinner party and let them use their dishwasher, but it would be weird if you insist to wash your silverware by hand or say you won’t attend unless they get rid of the appliance.
    Then why is Apple being castigated for pullings apps in China and India. They’re just following the law, right? But no, Apple is criticized for not standing up to Chinese and Indian censorship in the name of “freedom”. Isn’t that a double standard being imposed by the trolls and critics?
    1) When don’t trolls have double standards?

    2) Can you say Apple isn’t standing up to censorship? Just like we know they went head to head with Qualcomm, they also came to some agreement. If the US gov’t had felt a need to end encryption privacy we may have seen Apple eventually back down. I doubt that they would pull out of the US market.

    3) If Tim Cook watches porn does it make Apple a hypocrite for not being in the porn business or allowing such apps on their App Store? No? Too obtuse of an example? Well what if Cook loves the HBO series Game of Thrones? Does it make Apple a hypocrite for not wanting to make anything other than PG content (or sell via iTunes Store) for their video service? I don’t think so. 


    Slightly OT, but regarding point 3, this is again something I mentioned before. People seem to have a problem with Apple operating in places like the Middle-East because Tim Cook is gay. It's seen as him being a hypocrite.

    However, the fact that Tim doesn't let his personal orientation get in the way of Apple's business (it's an American company, making money for American stakeholders) shows integrity rather than hypocrisy.

    Soli
  • Reply 30 of 46
    gatorguygatorguy Posts: 23,510member
    Soli said:
    lkrupp said:
    But it is slightly hypocritical to want to fight the U.S. but turn then around and cow-tow to China and India.
    Not at all. You have to abide by the laws of a nation. Wanting to go to court is a valid (if abused) legal process in the US, Cook is a US citizen, and Apple a US corporation.

    Leading by example is also how you best invoke the change you want. For instance, you may have a policy on your home where you wash dishes by hand to save energy and water, but I doubt that you would force that on another household. You could lead by example and talk up the reasons why, but it wouldn’t be hypocritical to go to a dinner party and let them use their dishwasher, but it would be weird if you insist to wash your silverware by hand or say you won’t attend unless they get rid of the appliance.
    @Soli ;Would it be OK to insist on handwashing if you were the one bringing the dishes, or should your dishes be allowed to be abused by another home's dishwasher? Perhaps not bringing your dishes at all is the right solution. 
    edited April 2019
  • Reply 31 of 46
    focherfocher Posts: 687member
    No one does more to destroy privacy than the people who participate in so-called social media platforms.
  • Reply 32 of 46
    leighrleighr Posts: 238member
    I have to say that all of this so called Russian rigging of the US election is a bit of a farce, when you consider that around 40% of Americans didn’t event bother to vote. That’s enough people to easily have enabled either side to win in a landslide. Did the Russians force 40% of Americans to stay home that day? Of course not. There’s no possible way that Russia can control that many people who have the freedom to vote whichever way they please. So any “interference” if it did exist is negligible at best.
  • Reply 33 of 46
    "people have values, corporations are made of people, and therefore corporations should have values." I believe this is the fallacy of composition. It simply isn't the case that because corporations are composed of people that that implies that corporations should have qualities that people have. (5 "that"s in one sentence. Thanks, english.)
  • Reply 34 of 46
    SoliSoli Posts: 10,033member
    greg uvan said:
    "people have values, corporations are made of people, and therefore corporations should have values." I believe this is the fallacy of composition. It simply isn't the case that because corporations are composed of people that that implies that corporations should have qualities that people have. (5 "that"s in one sentence. Thanks, english.)
    Why do you believe that there can be no intersection of humanity and business? Have you really never chosen one product over another because it’s ethos? I certain have done so for both people and the products and services of a company.

    i think the fallacy is ascribing the exact same values to a corporation as to an individual. For instance, I choose not to use Uber because of countless ethical and criminal issues, but I don’t think that because the company has acted in a certain way that every employee is therefore guilty of those crimes or even was in support.

    in regards to Apple, people that think Tim Cook is Apple and Apple is Tim Cook are foolish. They call Tim a hypocrite and mention Saudi Arabia because of anti-gay laws, yet they never mention such laws in the US. Most are not enforced but goddamn they do exist and those jurisdictions tend to still allow hate crimes based on those archaic laws to be given a greater pass. I don’t think Apple should not do business in those US states because it’s not exactly in-line with Cook’s particular values, but I doubt there’s a single democracy that aligns with an single indivisible.
    edited April 2019
  • Reply 35 of 46
    SoliSoli Posts: 10,033member
    gatorguy said:
    Soli said:
    lkrupp said:
    But it is slightly hypocritical to want to fight the U.S. but turn then around and cow-tow to China and India.
    Not at all. You have to abide by the laws of a nation. Wanting to go to court is a valid (if abused) legal process in the US, Cook is a US citizen, and Apple a US corporation.

    Leading by example is also how you best invoke the change you want. For instance, you may have a policy on your home where you wash dishes by hand to save energy and water, but I doubt that you would force that on another household. You could lead by example and talk up the reasons why, but it wouldn’t be hypocritical to go to a dinner party and let them use their dishwasher, but it would be weird if you insist to wash your silverware by hand or say you won’t attend unless they get rid of the appliance.
    @Soli ;Would it be OK to insist on handwashing if you were the one bringing the dishes, or should your dishes be allowed to be abused by another home's dishwasher? Perhaps not bringing your dishes at all is the right solution. 
    If you’re bringing your own dishes to use at someone else’s party without having a conversation with them first is weird AF, but if that’s something you really want to do I hope you first ask for permission and have a conversation about you needing to hand wash your own plate.
  • Reply 36 of 46
    NemWanNemWan Posts: 118member
    leighr said:
    I have to say that all of this so called Russian rigging of the US election is a bit of a farce, when you consider that around 40% of Americans didn’t event bother to vote. That’s enough people to easily have enabled either side to win in a landslide. Did the Russians force 40% of Americans to stay home that day? Of course not. There’s no possible way that Russia can control that many people who have the freedom to vote whichever way they please. So any “interference” if it did exist is negligible at best.
    You're explifying why many people don't yet understand how crucial digital privacy is. It's the power of unregulated big data that allows "negligable" interference to be precise and decisive. The 2016 election was decided by a negligable margin: if 78,000 votes, 0.06% of the electorate, had been cast differently in the right states, it would have flipped the electoral college the other way. Interference is a clear and present danger because of the ability to collect treasure troves of once-private data and microtarget extreme and fraudulent propaganda to the most receptive people. That gives enemies the means to get big results from small effects, under the radar but in plain sight, wth half the country denying it was a real attack because such a "negligable" effect shouldn't matter.
  • Reply 37 of 46
    tribalogicaltribalogical Posts: 1,182member
    First, I think it's fine to be a 'free-market person', although it matters how one defines that. I may define it differently than some politicians or multi-national CEOs might. Unfortunately, most use it as a foil to prevent or crush smaller competition, or to pass legislation overly-friendly to larger corporations and the wealthiest among us... it creates a type of global capitalism that I believe is both dangerous and unsustainable over the long term.

    Second, I don't think it's Democracy that's failing on its own, it's "unfettered, unregulated commerce and Capitalism" that is in part driving that (which is not, apples to apples, synonymous with a "free market" in my view). The system as it stands, and at its current pace of hoarding at the high end by companies and individuals means that by 2050, there won't be enough money to go around. Poverty is already worsening at an accelerated rate globally. Imagine when 10 billion people can't sustain themselves, while a few hundred are hoarding almost the entire wealth of the world? The result? Think "French Revolution" as just a small example of the chaos and upheaval inevitable in that kind of scenario...

    As it stands right now, that same Capitalism means that a very few of the wealthiest people (e.g., the Forbes 100+) are hoarding more wealth than that held by the bottom FIFTY PERCENT of all humanity combined. And that's only going to get worse. It's unsustainable, really.

    Because of that extreme concentration of wealth created by unfettered capitalism, Cook is right that we are seeing a weakening of democracy around the world, including in the USA. Our democracy doesn't have answers to those things built in. We need a conversation that makes sense, and New Rules that put limits on the power of Capitalism to hoover the world's wealth and resources into a very few pockets.

    Third, as part of the first two issues, Privacy has indeed become a major issue. I think Cook is right that it ties directly into recent abuses. Mostly because, as part of the "free market", oversized corporations and the world's wealthiest individuals who own them have acted with impunity (some might call it corruptly), abusing the 'privilege' of access to sensational amounts of private, aggregate data.

    Finally, it bothers me no end that law enforcement and spy agencies are complaining that comms are "going dark", which implies to me a certain complacency on their parts. With an attitude similar to "what's yours is mine" as a given? And speaking of abuses, there are plenty from those quarters too, when the access to our data is a given...

    We live in interesting times, that's for sure.

    Thanks for reading...
    edited April 2019
  • Reply 38 of 46
    tribalogicaltribalogical Posts: 1,182member
    flydog said:

    Can we address the criminals working in and for the Governments first?
    Not before we address irrational thinking.
    There's nothing wrong with acknowledging that corruption and criminality exists in numerous governments around the world, ours included. To imply that is somehow irrational, may itself be the greater example of irrational thinking...
    edited April 2019
  • Reply 39 of 46
    tribalogicaltribalogical Posts: 1,182member
    lkrupp said:
    Rule number one. Don’t EVER pick a fight with politicians or the government. If they come after you, fine, fight ‘em but don’t attack them first. But it is slightly hypocritical to want to fight the U.S. but turn then around and cow-tow to China and India.
    Agreed. It's like arguing with idiots. You never argue with them because no one is going to know which one is which.
    They won't know which is which because by arguing with idiots, you also become one yourself.

    I'm also troubled by the deference shown to China regarding their policies. Especially given the power of "standing" that Cook mentions. How about Apple, Google, and the myriad other massive corporations tell China to take a hike? Get with the program or lose ALL OF US? China would wither on the vine without the explicit support of these multinational corps...

    I wish they'd say screw it, we'll be less rich. We don't give in to totalitarian regimes like Communist China (yes, they are still that regardless of the partial Capitalist model they've allowed).

    Sure... if only.
    edited April 2019
  • Reply 40 of 46
    sreesree Posts: 147member
    lkrupp said:
    Rule number one. Don’t EVER pick a fight with politicians or the government. If they come after you, fine, fight ‘em but don’t attack them first. But it is slightly hypocritical to want to fight the U.S. but turn then around and cow-tow to China and India.

    Just because they are far away from the US, does not mean china and india are the same. It is unfair to club them together.

    China is a dictatorship, and india is a democracy with an independent judiciary. Whatever apps have had to be pulled from the indian app store, were pulled because some court directed them to do so. Would you expect apple to keep an app even after a US court orders it to remove it from the app store?
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