Huawei faces dual US bans, Dutch accusations of carrier backdoor

2

Comments

  • Reply 21 of 43
    avon b7avon b7 Posts: 7,538member
    Huawei just put an approximate figure on this action:

    Around 11 billion US dollars going into the US. Activity that supports around 50,000 US jobs.

    EDIT: Reports are claiming that Huawei has already stockpiled 12 months of key components and is now accelerating its transition away from US component sourcing.

    Trade war or no trade war this action could put a dent into the US tech industry.
    edited May 2019
  • Reply 22 of 43
    Dan_DilgerDan_Dilger Posts: 1,583member
    wood1208 said:
    Banning Huawei selling equipment in USA is one thing but importantly rest of world must ban otherwise it effects everyone. A person calling or sending data on USA network which goes through internet than on some countries internal network which was provided by Huawei with backdoor so at the end you still sending your information to China.
    No The point of Encryption (from HTTPS to WPA to iMessage) is that interception doesn't matter. The internet is designed to be resilient to snooping. If your WiFi is encrypted correctly, it doesn't matter if China is listening to wireless in your coffeeshop. 

    avon b7 said:
    That is why the whole thing is absurd from a security perspective. Huawei is everywhere and I mean eveywhere in the communications chain. The US would have to homebrew it's own parallel communications system, put itself firmly within its own bubble of paranoia and cut itself off from the outside world. But even then, it would be literally powerless to stop the network from being compromised in some way. Why would Huawei even need to place backdoors for illicit means if governments are poring over systems trying to find a way in. Remind me how many critical holes Cisco has plugged just this year.

    No

    avon b7 said:
    This latest action is protectionism, just like it was from the start. If we want to talk government (not private companies) then by all means throw the FBI, NSA, CIA and other agencies into the soup and see who has more tentacles in more pies.


    Ironically this kind of protectionism sometimes backfires. When the US banned intel from selling Xeons to China for use in HPC, not only did intel see revenues drop by 1 billion dollars (IIRC) and ended up laying off 12,000 workers, but the Chinese simply cooked up their own solution and jumped straight to the top of supercomputing charts.

    Now Donald Trump has raised eyebrows around the world by upping the stakes both with Iran and China at the same time and voices are claiming he has lost control.

    On top of that, China will obviously not take nicely to having a company considered the national pride be attacked without evidence. Whatever comes next Donald Trump will only have himself to blame.

    As for Apple, if November and December were bad months in China for sales, I shudder to think what the anti US backlash will be to this in terms of iPhone sales in China over the next few months.

    No, protectionism is an effort in shielding from foreign competition. Banning tech export or sale is not protectionism.  

    China is already working to build its own ARM chips and Huawai has already threatened (uh, who just complained about phrasing?) to develop its own Android OS replacement. The West isn't losing jobs by stopping Google's subsidy of Chinese firms with software to use in flooding the market with cheap communist devices until its the only source of said devices left.

    There is plenty of "evidence" of China spying. Why do you supose this follows the arrest of Huawei's CFO and the seizing of her equipment?

    China isn't going to "take nicely" in any event so who cares?

    Trump is certainly destroying America's red states -- i mean how long can he prop up a planned economy based on massive billions of state subsidies while nobody buys rotting US crops and trade shifts to alternative states? Ask Russia about how sustainable its central farming run by a red party of idological idiots worked out. Red states in the US are absolutely screwed. They voted for a conman / rapist and now they're gettting bent over and taken advantage of. Now all they have is that big fake R foxcon plant in Wisconsin that's not real

    "Anti US backlash" on iPhones has been a Communist Party Propaganda slogan since at least 2014. There's no indication that the installed base of iPhone users is switching over to Huawei or any other maker in China.

    Now, if Trump can sustain a long term trade war, start an invasion of Iran, and further destablize the US economy with massive spending on white spuremacy monuments than yes it's not going to help Apple.

    But this isn't Apple vs Huawei. It's Huawei vs International law. China itself has a huge national reason to back Apple: it's providing jobs and productivity across a vast network of its supply chain. If China turned on Apple, losing its business to India or other developming regions would leave it with 5 big Chinese makers that are generating very little in profits.
    acejax805watto_cobra
  • Reply 23 of 43
    avon b7avon b7 Posts: 7,538member
    wood1208 said:
    Banning Huawei selling equipment in USA is one thing but importantly rest of world must ban otherwise it effects everyone. A person calling or sending data on USA network which goes through internet than on some countries internal network which was provided by Huawei with backdoor so at the end you still sending your information to China.
    No The point of Encryption (from HTTPS to WPA to iMessage) is that interception doesn't matter. The internet is designed to be resilient to snooping. If your WiFi is encrypted correctly, it doesn't matter if China is listening to wireless in your coffeeshop. 

    avon b7 said:
    That is why the whole thing is absurd from a security perspective. Huawei is everywhere and I mean eveywhere in the communications chain. The US would have to homebrew it's own parallel communications system, put itself firmly within its own bubble of paranoia and cut itself off from the outside world. But even then, it would be literally powerless to stop the network from being compromised in some way. Why would Huawei even need to place backdoors for illicit means if governments are poring over systems trying to find a way in. Remind me how many critical holes Cisco has plugged just this year.

    No

    avon b7 said:
    This latest action is protectionism, just like it was from the start. If we want to talk government (not private companies) then by all means throw the FBI, NSA, CIA and other agencies into the soup and see who has more tentacles in more pies.


    Ironically this kind of protectionism sometimes backfires. When the US banned intel from selling Xeons to China for use in HPC, not only did intel see revenues drop by 1 billion dollars (IIRC) and ended up laying off 12,000 workers, but the Chinese simply cooked up their own solution and jumped straight to the top of supercomputing charts.

    Now Donald Trump has raised eyebrows around the world by upping the stakes both with Iran and China at the same time and voices are claiming he has lost control.

    On top of that, China will obviously not take nicely to having a company considered the national pride be attacked without evidence. Whatever comes next Donald Trump will only have himself to blame.

    As for Apple, if November and December were bad months in China for sales, I shudder to think what the anti US backlash will be to this in terms of iPhone sales in China over the next few months.

    No, protectionism is an effort in shielding from foreign competition. Banning tech export or sale is not protectionism.  

    China is already working to build its own ARM chips and Huawai has already threatened (uh, who just complained about phrasing?) to develop its own Android OS replacement. The West isn't losing jobs by stopping Google's subsidy of Chinese firms with software to use in flooding the market with cheap communist devices until its the only source of said devices left.

    There is plenty of "evidence" of China spying. Why do you supose this follows the arrest of Huawei's CFO and the seizing of her equipment?

    China isn't going to "take nicely" in any event so who cares?

    Trump is certainly destroying America's red states -- i mean how long can he prop up a planned economy based on massive billions of state subsidies while nobody buys rotting US crops and trade shifts to alternative states? Ask Russia about how sustainable its central farming run by a red party of idological idiots worked out. Red states in the US are absolutely screwed. They voted for a conman / rapist and now they're gettting bent over and taken advantage of. Now all they have is that big fake R foxcon plant in Wisconsin that's not real

    "Anti US backlash" on iPhones has been a Communist Party Propaganda slogan since at least 2014. There's no indication that the installed base of iPhone users is switching over to Huawei or any other maker in China.

    Now, if Trump can sustain a long term trade war, start an invasion of Iran, and further destablize the US economy with massive spending on white spuremacy monuments than yes it's not going to help Apple.

    But this isn't Apple vs Huawei. It's Huawei vs International law. China itself has a huge national reason to back Apple: it's providing jobs and productivity across a vast network of its supply chain. If China turned on Apple, losing its business to India or other developming regions would leave it with 5 big Chinese makers that are generating very little in profits.
    It's protectionism Jim, but not as you know it.

    The US has gone as far as to all but admit it. I quoted this yesterday:

    ---------------

    The U.S. House of Representatives Intelligence Committee - Thursday:

    “Today, our nation faces no greater long-term strategic challenge than China’s emergence as a major actor on the global stage,”

    Adam Schiff, the committee’s Democratic chairman

    “Beijing has implemented an aggressive and sophisticated whole of society influence campaign to win supporters, sow confusion in the American public and undermine opposition to the Chinese threat within American society,” 

    Representative Devin Nunes, the committee’s ranking Republican.

    ------------------

    The goal is to derail China's efforts to overtake the US. Especially in key strategic areas. That is to protect US industry and influence around the world! It is a form of ABSOLUTE protectionism at that! It is a huge attempt at 'shielding the US from foreign competition'. It is also probably illegal.

    I have never seen Huawei 'threaten' to design its own mobile OS. Kirin OS has been known about for a while. It is a - plan B - in case it has no option but to deploy it. If it does, it will be because someone basically forces them into releasing it. It was born purely out of a need imposed by foreign (US) politics.

    This is also Huawei vs Apple and Boeing vs Airbus etc. There are international law issues all over the shop. This latest Trump move might even end up there. The risk of China 'turning on Apple' is also quite real.
  • Reply 24 of 43
    acejax805acejax805 Posts: 109member
    It doesn't matter if traffic coming into US networks are based on Huawei equipment or not, the security depends on the US network entry points and access controls setup on those entry points.
    edited May 2019
  • Reply 25 of 43
    tmaytmay Posts: 6,254member
    avon b7 said:
    wood1208 said:
    Banning Huawei selling equipment in USA is one thing but importantly rest of world must ban otherwise it effects everyone. A person calling or sending data on USA network which goes through internet than on some countries internal network which was provided by Huawei with backdoor so at the end you still sending your information to China.
    That is why the whole thing is absurd from a security perspective. Huawei is everywhere and I mean eveywhere in the communications chain. The US would have to homebrew it's own parallel communications system, put itself firmly within its own bubble of paranoia and cut itself off from the outside world. But even then, it would be literally powerless to stop the network from being compromised in some way. Why would Huawei even need to place backdoors for illicit means if governments are poring over systems trying to find a way in. Remind me how many critical holes Cisco has plugged just this year.

    This latest action is protectionism, just like it was from the start. If we want to talk government (not private companies) then by all means throw the FBI, NSA, CIA and other agencies into the soup and see who has more tentacles in more pies.

    Ironically this kind of protectionism sometimes backfires. When the US banned intel from selling Xeons to China for use in HPC, not only did intel see revenues drop by 1 billion dollars (IIRC) and ended up laying off 12,000 workers, but the Chinese simply cooked up their own solution and jumped straight to the top of supercomputing charts.

    Now Donald Trump has raised eyebrows around the world by upping the stakes both with Iran and China at the same time and voices are claiming he has lost control.

    On top of that, China will obviously not take nicely to having a company considered the national pride be attacked without evidence. Whatever comes next Donald Trump will only have himself to blame.

    As for Apple, if November and December were bad months in China for sales, I shudder to think what the anti US backlash will be to this in terms of iPhone sales in China over the next few months.


    I just wanted to note your statement;

    "When the US banned intel from selling Xeons to China for use in HPC, not only did intel see revenues drop by 1 billion dollars (IIRC) and ended up laying off 12,000 workers, but the Chinese simply cooked up their own solution and jumped straight to the top of supercomputing charts". 

    So, here's the story about that;

    https://www.fool.com/investing/general/2015/04/15/the-us-government-crushes-intel-corporations-chine.aspx

    First, Intel did lose about $1B in sales to China, and sales were lost by GPU manufacturers as well, and China did have to create new foundry processes to catch up to the performance of the Xeon, but there weren't any jobs lost, since there were other venues for Xeon sales, and all of this was to constrain the use of HPC's to develop military technologies. In case you weren't aware of it, HPC's are used for all kinds of simulations, fluid, RF, stealth, jet engine, and rockets, and high energy (explosives), all useful by the Chinese Military. Why would the U.S., or 
    any other country in the West, provide any authoritarian country such as China, the tools to create weapons? 

    Rule number one in National Security; you don't provide technology to your adversaries, and you do attempt to limit theft, and illegal sales of that technology.

    I'm stunned by how naive you are about China's goals.

    Do you think that Spain's acquiescence to the BRI, will benefit Spain in the long run? Isn't it more likely that China will end up influencing Spanish government officials to do the things that are best for China.

    I'm imagining Spain Hosting the PLAN because of the economic benefits of doing so, over the negative implications for Spanish and EU National Security. 

    I have posted links to the issue of Chinese influence in a more recent thread, and I'm sure that you have ignored them, but smaller countries do not have the economic viabilities to withstand the economic challenges that China imposes, without hardship.


    Oh, and those two Canadian individuals who were picked up in China days after Meng Wanzhou given house arrest, have now been charged with spying. But of course, this is China so no actual evidence is requred;

    https://www.theguardian.com/world/2019/may/16/canadians-detained-in-china-charged-with-espionage

    "Kovrig, a former diplomat, and Spavor, an entrepreneur who frequently led tours to North Korea, were both detained by Chinese officials in December last year. For months, the pair have been held in a detention facility without access to a lawyer and been granted a single consular visit per month. There is no indication when the two will be formally charged or go on trial.

    “Canada strongly condemns their arbitrary arrest as we condemned their arbitrary detention on December 10,” said Canada’s foreign affairs department in a statement on Thursday. “We reiterate our demand that China immediately release Mr Kovrig and Mr Spavor.”

    "The formal arrests of the two are widely seen as retaliation for Canada’s apprehension of Huawei’s CFO Meng Wanzhou at Vancouver airport on 1 December. The telecoms executive is fighting extradition proceedings to the US, where American officials allege she committed fraud. China immediately called for her release following the arrest and closely watched court appearances.

    Amid pressure from Beijing, Ottawa has repeatedly stated that Canada’s justice system is immune from political interference.

    On Thursday, a Chinese foreign ministry spokesman deployed similar language to rebut Canada’s frustrations over the arrests of Kovrig and Spavor.

    “We always act in accordance with the law, and we hope that Canada will not make irresponsible remarks on China’s legal construction and judicial handling,” said Lu Kang at a news conference."

    The Chinese Police State at work.



    cornchipwatto_cobra
  • Reply 26 of 43
    avon b7avon b7 Posts: 7,538member
    tmay said:
    avon b7 said:
    wood1208 said:
    Banning Huawei selling equipment in USA is one thing but importantly rest of world must ban otherwise it effects everyone. A person calling or sending data on USA network which goes through internet than on some countries internal network which was provided by Huawei with backdoor so at the end you still sending your information to China.
    That is why the whole thing is absurd from a security perspective. Huawei is everywhere and I mean eveywhere in the communications chain. The US would have to homebrew it's own parallel communications system, put itself firmly within its own bubble of paranoia and cut itself off from the outside world. But even then, it would be literally powerless to stop the network from being compromised in some way. Why would Huawei even need to place backdoors for illicit means if governments are poring over systems trying to find a way in. Remind me how many critical holes Cisco has plugged just this year.

    This latest action is protectionism, just like it was from the start. If we want to talk government (not private companies) then by all means throw the FBI, NSA, CIA and other agencies into the soup and see who has more tentacles in more pies.

    Ironically this kind of protectionism sometimes backfires. When the US banned intel from selling Xeons to China for use in HPC, not only did intel see revenues drop by 1 billion dollars (IIRC) and ended up laying off 12,000 workers, but the Chinese simply cooked up their own solution and jumped straight to the top of supercomputing charts.

    Now Donald Trump has raised eyebrows around the world by upping the stakes both with Iran and China at the same time and voices are claiming he has lost control.

    On top of that, China will obviously not take nicely to having a company considered the national pride be attacked without evidence. Whatever comes next Donald Trump will only have himself to blame.

    As for Apple, if November and December were bad months in China for sales, I shudder to think what the anti US backlash will be to this in terms of iPhone sales in China over the next few months.


    I just wanted to note your statement;

    "When the US banned intel from selling Xeons to China for use in HPC, not only did intel see revenues drop by 1 billion dollars (IIRC) and ended up laying off 12,000 workers, but the Chinese simply cooked up their own solution and jumped straight to the top of supercomputing charts". 

    So, here's the story about that;

    https://www.fool.com/investing/general/2015/04/15/the-us-government-crushes-intel-corporations-chine.aspx

    First, Intel did lose about $1B in sales to China, and sales were lost by GPU manufacturers as well, and China did have to create new foundry processes to catch up to the performance of the Xeon, but there weren't any jobs lost, since there were other venues for Xeon sales, and all of this was to constrain the use of HPC's to develop military technologies. In case you weren't aware of it, HPC's are used for all kinds of simulations, fluid, RF, stealth, jet engine, and rockets, and high energy (explosives), all useful by the Chinese Military. Why would the U.S., or any other country in the West, provide any authoritarian country such as China, the tools to create weapons? 

    Rule number one in National Security; you don't provide technology to your adversaries, and you do attempt to limit theft, and illegal sales of that technology.

    I'm stunned by how naive you are about China's goals.

    Do you think that Spain's acquiescence to the BRI, will benefit Spain in the long run? Isn't it more likely that China will end up influencing Spanish government officials to do the things that are best for China.

    I'm imagining Spain Hosting the PLAN because of the economic benefits of doing so, over the negative implications for Spanish and EU National Security. 

    I have posted links to the issue of Chinese influence in a more recent thread, and I'm sure that you have ignored them, but smaller countries do not have the economic viabilities to withstand the economic challenges that China imposes, without hardship.


    Oh, and those two Canadian individuals who were picked up in China days after Meng Wanzhou given house arrest, have now been charged with spying. But of course, this is China so no actual evidence is requred;

    https://www.theguardian.com/world/2019/may/16/canadians-detained-in-china-charged-with-espionage

    "Kovrig, a former diplomat, and Spavor, an entrepreneur who frequently led tours to North Korea, were both detained by Chinese officials in December last year. For months, the pair have been held in a detention facility without access to a lawyer and been granted a single consular visit per month. There is no indication when the two will be formally charged or go on trial.

    “Canada strongly condemns their arbitrary arrest as we condemned their arbitrary detention on December 10,” said Canada’s foreign affairs department in a statement on Thursday. “We reiterate our demand that China immediately release Mr Kovrig and Mr Spavor.”

    "The formal arrests of the two are widely seen as retaliation for Canada’s apprehension of Huawei’s CFO Meng Wanzhou at Vancouver airport on 1 December. The telecoms executive is fighting extradition proceedings to the US, where American officials allege she committed fraud. China immediately called for her release following the arrest and closely watched court appearances.

    Amid pressure from Beijing, Ottawa has repeatedly stated that Canada’s justice system is immune from political interference.

    On Thursday, a Chinese foreign ministry spokesman deployed similar language to rebut Canada’s frustrations over the arrests of Kovrig and Spavor.

    “We always act in accordance with the law, and we hope that Canada will not make irresponsible remarks on China’s legal construction and judicial handling,” said Lu Kang at a news conference."

    The Chinese Police State at work.



    Politics. Politics.

    My point on the Xeons was that not only did the tactic fail but it forced China to accelerate its own plans and the result was anything but good for the US.

    On the subject of HPC, I collaborate with an important supercomputing centre, so I know a thing or two about the subject.

    The US will just have to accept that China is very much in that game and that the EU is designing its own HPC processors - precisely to be independent of US technology.
  • Reply 27 of 43
    AppleExposedAppleExposed Posts: 1,805unconfirmed, member
    The iKnockoff Google-slaves are claiming the United States is jealous of China which is why they are blocking spy devices from them. (since when was the U.S. pro-Apple anyway?)

    They are hoping the U.S. tech industry collapses so that China gets a better foothold on the market.

    THIS is how much they hate Apple, that they hope their home country collapses to see Apple go down with them.

    These people get more and more stupid the more I pay attention to them.....
    watto_cobra
  • Reply 28 of 43
    AppleExposedAppleExposed Posts: 1,805unconfirmed, member
    avon b7 said:
    Huawei just put an approximate figure on this action:

    Around 11 billion US dollars going into the US. Activity that supports around 50,000 US jobs.

    EDIT: Reports are claiming that Huawei has already stockpiled 12 months of key components and is now accelerating its transition away from US component sourcing.

    Trade war or no trade war this action could put a dent into the US tech industry.

    I literally read this after what I posted......

    I can smell the hope that the U.S. collapses so Apple falls with them from your comment.
    cornchipwatto_cobra
  • Reply 29 of 43
    avon b7avon b7 Posts: 7,538member
    avon b7 said:
    Huawei just put an approximate figure on this action:

    Around 11 billion US dollars going into the US. Activity that supports around 50,000 US jobs.

    EDIT: Reports are claiming that Huawei has already stockpiled 12 months of key components and is now accelerating its transition away from US component sourcing.

    Trade war or no trade war this action could put a dent into the US tech industry.

    I literally read this after what I posted......

    I can smell the hope that the U.S. collapses so Apple falls with them from your comment.
    I don't need to see anyone collapse and fail.

    That said, these latest moves (along with a string of Trump tweets) have confirmed beyond any doubt whatsoever that the core issue here is the US falling behind and seeing China pull ahead in key strategic areas. National security was simply the excuse to 'justify' what they have been doing all along.

    I've quoted key US politicians who have made clear statements. 
  • Reply 30 of 43
    tmaytmay Posts: 6,254member
    avon b7 said:
    tmay said:
    avon b7 said:
    wood1208 said:
    Banning Huawei selling equipment in USA is one thing but importantly rest of world must ban otherwise it effects everyone. A person calling or sending data on USA network which goes through internet than on some countries internal network which was provided by Huawei with backdoor so at the end you still sending your information to China.
    That is why the whole thing is absurd from a security perspective. Huawei is everywhere and I mean eveywhere in the communications chain. The US would have to homebrew it's own parallel communications system, put itself firmly within its own bubble of paranoia and cut itself off from the outside world. But even then, it would be literally powerless to stop the network from being compromised in some way. Why would Huawei even need to place backdoors for illicit means if governments are poring over systems trying to find a way in. Remind me how many critical holes Cisco has plugged just this year.

    This latest action is protectionism, just like it was from the start. If we want to talk government (not private companies) then by all means throw the FBI, NSA, CIA and other agencies into the soup and see who has more tentacles in more pies.

    Ironically this kind of protectionism sometimes backfires. When the US banned intel from selling Xeons to China for use in HPC, not only did intel see revenues drop by 1 billion dollars (IIRC) and ended up laying off 12,000 workers, but the Chinese simply cooked up their own solution and jumped straight to the top of supercomputing charts.

    Now Donald Trump has raised eyebrows around the world by upping the stakes both with Iran and China at the same time and voices are claiming he has lost control.

    On top of that, China will obviously not take nicely to having a company considered the national pride be attacked without evidence. Whatever comes next Donald Trump will only have himself to blame.

    As for Apple, if November and December were bad months in China for sales, I shudder to think what the anti US backlash will be to this in terms of iPhone sales in China over the next few months.


    I just wanted to note your statement;

    "When the US banned intel from selling Xeons to China for use in HPC, not only did intel see revenues drop by 1 billion dollars (IIRC) and ended up laying off 12,000 workers, but the Chinese simply cooked up their own solution and jumped straight to the top of supercomputing charts". 

    So, here's the story about that;

    https://www.fool.com/investing/general/2015/04/15/the-us-government-crushes-intel-corporations-chine.aspx

    First, Intel did lose about $1B in sales to China, and sales were lost by GPU manufacturers as well, and China did have to create new foundry processes to catch up to the performance of the Xeon, but there weren't any jobs lost, since there were other venues for Xeon sales, and all of this was to constrain the use of HPC's to develop military technologies. In case you weren't aware of it, HPC's are used for all kinds of simulations, fluid, RF, stealth, jet engine, and rockets, and high energy (explosives), all useful by the Chinese Military. Why would the U.S., or any other country in the West, provide any authoritarian country such as China, the tools to create weapons? 

    Rule number one in National Security; you don't provide technology to your adversaries, and you do attempt to limit theft, and illegal sales of that technology.

    I'm stunned by how naive you are about China's goals.

    Do you think that Spain's acquiescence to the BRI, will benefit Spain in the long run? Isn't it more likely that China will end up influencing Spanish government officials to do the things that are best for China.

    I'm imagining Spain Hosting the PLAN because of the economic benefits of doing so, over the negative implications for Spanish and EU National Security. 

    I have posted links to the issue of Chinese influence in a more recent thread, and I'm sure that you have ignored them, but smaller countries do not have the economic viabilities to withstand the economic challenges that China imposes, without hardship.


    Oh, and those two Canadian individuals who were picked up in China days after Meng Wanzhou given house arrest, have now been charged with spying. But of course, this is China so no actual evidence is requred;

    https://www.theguardian.com/world/2019/may/16/canadians-detained-in-china-charged-with-espionage

    "Kovrig, a former diplomat, and Spavor, an entrepreneur who frequently led tours to North Korea, were both detained by Chinese officials in December last year. For months, the pair have been held in a detention facility without access to a lawyer and been granted a single consular visit per month. There is no indication when the two will be formally charged or go on trial.

    “Canada strongly condemns their arbitrary arrest as we condemned their arbitrary detention on December 10,” said Canada’s foreign affairs department in a statement on Thursday. “We reiterate our demand that China immediately release Mr Kovrig and Mr Spavor.”

    "The formal arrests of the two are widely seen as retaliation for Canada’s apprehension of Huawei’s CFO Meng Wanzhou at Vancouver airport on 1 December. The telecoms executive is fighting extradition proceedings to the US, where American officials allege she committed fraud. China immediately called for her release following the arrest and closely watched court appearances.

    Amid pressure from Beijing, Ottawa has repeatedly stated that Canada’s justice system is immune from political interference.

    On Thursday, a Chinese foreign ministry spokesman deployed similar language to rebut Canada’s frustrations over the arrests of Kovrig and Spavor.

    “We always act in accordance with the law, and we hope that Canada will not make irresponsible remarks on China’s legal construction and judicial handling,” said Lu Kang at a news conference."

    The Chinese Police State at work.



    Politics. Politics.

    My point on the Xeons was that not only did the tactic fail but it forced China to accelerate its own plans and the result was anything but good for the US.

    On the subject of HPC, I collaborate with an important supercomputing centre, so I know a thing or two about the subject.

    The US will just have to accept that China is very much in that game and that the EU is designing its own HPC processors - precisely to be independent of US technology.
    So, you evidently agree that HPC's are important to the Chinese Military, and more generally, to Militaries around the world. 

    Yeah, Politics. /s

    Authoritarian Chinese round up two innocent Canadians to use as leverage against Meng Wanzhou extradition. I'm guessing that Canada won't abide by Chinese wishes, and actually follow the law.

    Authoritarian Chinese use Huawei for internal security and military apparatus. News at 11:00.

    Just politics.


    cornchipwatto_cobra
  • Reply 31 of 43
    tmaytmay Posts: 6,254member

    avon b7 said:
    Huawei just put an approximate figure on this action:

    Around 11 billion US dollars going into the US. Activity that supports around 50,000 US jobs.

    EDIT: Reports are claiming that Huawei has already stockpiled 12 months of key components and is now accelerating its transition away from US component sourcing.

    Trade war or no trade war this action could put a dent into the US tech industry.

    I literally read this after what I posted......

    I can smell the hope that the U.S. collapses so Apple falls with them from your comment.
    What's funny, is that Avon B7 isn't supporting China per se, only Huawei. I'm not sure if he ever noted that ZTE is also in the telecom business, though he has made off hand remarks about some of the other Chinese Smartphone OEM's. 

    I posited once that he is actually a Chinese National living in Spain, but of course, that couldn't possibly be the case.

    Oh, and Avon B7 has been hoping for Apple's collapse since he arrived here at AI.

    One thing that I have noticed, is that he has tunnel vision aligned with Huawei's business model; marketshare uber alles.
    edited May 2019 cornchip
  • Reply 32 of 43
    tmaytmay Posts: 6,254member
    wood1208 said:
    Banning Huawei selling equipment in USA is one thing but importantly rest of world must ban otherwise it effects everyone. A person calling or sending data on USA network which goes through internet than on some countries internal network which was provided by Huawei with backdoor so at the end you still sending your information to China.
    No The point of Encryption (from HTTPS to WPA to iMessage) is that interception doesn't matter. The internet is designed to be resilient to snooping. If your WiFi is encrypted correctly, it doesn't matter if China is listening to wireless in your coffeeshop. 

    avon b7 said:
    That is why the whole thing is absurd from a security perspective. Huawei is everywhere and I mean eveywhere in the communications chain. The US would have to homebrew it's own parallel communications system, put itself firmly within its own bubble of paranoia and cut itself off from the outside world. But even then, it would be literally powerless to stop the network from being compromised in some way. Why would Huawei even need to place backdoors for illicit means if governments are poring over systems trying to find a way in. Remind me how many critical holes Cisco has plugged just this year.

    No

    avon b7 said:
    This latest action is protectionism, just like it was from the start. If we want to talk government (not private companies) then by all means throw the FBI, NSA, CIA and other agencies into the soup and see who has more tentacles in more pies.


    Ironically this kind of protectionism sometimes backfires. When the US banned intel from selling Xeons to China for use in HPC, not only did intel see revenues drop by 1 billion dollars (IIRC) and ended up laying off 12,000 workers, but the Chinese simply cooked up their own solution and jumped straight to the top of supercomputing charts.

    Now Donald Trump has raised eyebrows around the world by upping the stakes both with Iran and China at the same time and voices are claiming he has lost control.

    On top of that, China will obviously not take nicely to having a company considered the national pride be attacked without evidence. Whatever comes next Donald Trump will only have himself to blame.

    As for Apple, if November and December were bad months in China for sales, I shudder to think what the anti US backlash will be to this in terms of iPhone sales in China over the next few months.

    No, protectionism is an effort in shielding from foreign competition. Banning tech export or sale is not protectionism.  

    China is already working to build its own ARM chips and Huawai has already threatened (uh, who just complained about phrasing?) to develop its own Android OS replacement. The West isn't losing jobs by stopping Google's subsidy of Chinese firms with software to use in flooding the market with cheap communist devices until its the only source of said devices left.

    There is plenty of "evidence" of China spying. Why do you supose this follows the arrest of Huawei's CFO and the seizing of her equipment?

    China isn't going to "take nicely" in any event so who cares?

    Trump is certainly destroying America's red states -- i mean how long can he prop up a planned economy based on massive billions of state subsidies while nobody buys rotting US crops and trade shifts to alternative states? Ask Russia about how sustainable its central farming run by a red party of idological idiots worked out. Red states in the US are absolutely screwed. They voted for a conman / rapist and now they're gettting bent over and taken advantage of. Now all they have is that big fake R foxcon plant in Wisconsin that's not real

    "Anti US backlash" on iPhones has been a Communist Party Propaganda slogan since at least 2014. There's no indication that the installed base of iPhone users is switching over to Huawei or any other maker in China.

    Now, if Trump can sustain a long term trade war, start an invasion of Iran, and further destablize the US economy with massive spending on white spuremacy monuments than yes it's not going to help Apple.

    But this isn't Apple vs Huawei. It's Huawei vs International law. China itself has a huge national reason to back Apple: it's providing jobs and productivity across a vast network of its supply chain. If China turned on Apple, losing its business to India or other developming regions would leave it with 5 big Chinese makers that are generating very little in profits.
    These are links on Chinese Trade, and Huawei cruft in the system:

    On China Trade



    On Huawei cruft

    https://threadreaderapp.com/thread/1129080020012552193.html
    watto_cobra
  • Reply 33 of 43
    anantksundaramanantksundaram Posts: 20,401member
    avon b7 said:

    And the rest of the world is pretty much against those sanctions anyway.
    Who cares. They can do what they want. But don't get American companies involved by stealth, as your pal -- the Huawei lady under extradition orders in Canada -- is alleged to have done.
    watto_cobra
  • Reply 34 of 43
    avon b7avon b7 Posts: 7,538member
    avon b7 said:

    And the rest of the world is pretty much against those sanctions anyway.
    Who cares. They can do what they want. But don't get American companies involved by stealth, as your pal -- the Huawei lady under extradition orders in Canada -- is alleged to have done.
    Yes. 'alleged'. That something to remember.

    As for others doing 'as they want', that would be nice, except when they do that, they get threatened by their 'ally'. Some ally eh?!

    The world basically turned its back on the US on Iran sanctions. The US refused to listen and look at things now! Perhaps we should have seen this coming:

    https://www.theguardian.com/us-news/2019/may/17/john-bolton-iran-north-korea-venezuela-trump

    As for US companies, some of them wouldn't even be American today if it weren't for the government stopping buy outs on the grounds of 'fears' of losing 'control':

    https://www.cnbc.com/2018/03/12/trump-issues-order-prohibiting-broadcoms-bid-to-take-over-qualcomm.html

    And many American companies have actually fallen foul of the US sanctions on Iran but what happened to them?:

    https://www.cnbc.com/amp/2018/12/14/stephen-roach-asks-why-us-singled-out-huawei-for-sanctions-violation.html

    Are you surprised that Meng was singled out? Are you seeing that national security has nothing to do with anything here?

    Most of the world has gone a different way on climate change too and just for good measure, Donald Trump will be greeted in London by over a million Londoners who will tell him what they think:

    https://www.independent.co.uk/news/uk/politics/trump-uk-state-visit-when-london-protests-blimp-a8915331.html






  • Reply 35 of 43
    avon b7avon b7 Posts: 7,538member
    tmay said:

    avon b7 said:
    Huawei just put an approximate figure on this action:

    Around 11 billion US dollars going into the US. Activity that supports around 50,000 US jobs.

    EDIT: Reports are claiming that Huawei has already stockpiled 12 months of key components and is now accelerating its transition away from US component sourcing.

    Trade war or no trade war this action could put a dent into the US tech industry.

    I literally read this after what I posted......

    I can smell the hope that the U.S. collapses so Apple falls with them from your comment.
    What's funny, is that Avon B7 isn't supporting China per se, only Huawei. I'm not sure if he ever noted that ZTE is also in the telecom business, though he has made off hand remarks about some of the other Chinese Smartphone OEM's. 

    I posited once that he is actually a Chinese National living in Spain, but of course, that couldn't possibly be the case.

    Oh, and Avon B7 has been hoping for Apple's collapse since he arrived here at AI.

    One thing that I have noticed, is that he has tunnel vision aligned with Huawei's business model; marketshare uber alles.
    Wow! So many wrong conclusions in one post.
  • Reply 36 of 43
    tmaytmay Posts: 6,254member
    avon b7 said:
    avon b7 said:

    And the rest of the world is pretty much against those sanctions anyway.
    Who cares. They can do what they want. But don't get American companies involved by stealth, as your pal -- the Huawei lady under extradition orders in Canada -- is alleged to have done.
    Yes. 'alleged'. That something to remember.

    As for others doing 'as they want', that would be nice, except when they do that, they get threatened by their 'ally'. Some ally eh?!

    The world basically turned its back on the US on Iran sanctions. The US refused to listen and look at things now! Perhaps we should have seen this coming:

    https://www.theguardian.com/us-news/2019/may/17/john-bolton-iran-north-korea-venezuela-trump

    As for US companies, some of them wouldn't even be American today if it weren't for the government stopping buy outs on the grounds of 'fears' of losing 'control':

    https://www.cnbc.com/2018/03/12/trump-issues-order-prohibiting-broadcoms-bid-to-take-over-qualcomm.html

    And many American companies have actually fallen foul of the US sanctions on Iran but what happened to them?:

    https://www.cnbc.com/amp/2018/12/14/stephen-roach-asks-why-us-singled-out-huawei-for-sanctions-violation.html

    Are you surprised that Meng was singled out? Are you seeing that national security has nothing to do with anything here?

    Most of the world has gone a different way on climate change too and just for good measure, Donald Trump will be greeted in London by over a million Londoners who will tell him what they think:

    https://www.independent.co.uk/news/uk/politics/trump-uk-state-visit-when-london-protests-blimp-a8915331.html






    You aren't even worth mocking anymore. For all the stuff that Trump has done, he is the Leader of a Democratically elected government, yet, never a bad word about China from you.

    Hypocrite.
    edited May 2019 anantksundaramcornchipdanhwatto_cobra
  • Reply 37 of 43
    avon b7avon b7 Posts: 7,538member
    tmay said:
    avon b7 said:
    avon b7 said:

    And the rest of the world is pretty much against those sanctions anyway.
    Who cares. They can do what they want. But don't get American companies involved by stealth, as your pal -- the Huawei lady under extradition orders in Canada -- is alleged to have done.
    Yes. 'alleged'. That something to remember.

    As for others doing 'as they want', that would be nice, except when they do that, they get threatened by their 'ally'. Some ally eh?!

    The world basically turned its back on the US on Iran sanctions. The US refused to listen and look at things now! Perhaps we should have seen this coming:

    https://www.theguardian.com/us-news/2019/may/17/john-bolton-iran-north-korea-venezuela-trump

    As for US companies, some of them wouldn't even be American today if it weren't for the government stopping buy outs on the grounds of 'fears' of losing 'control':

    https://www.cnbc.com/2018/03/12/trump-issues-order-prohibiting-broadcoms-bid-to-take-over-qualcomm.html

    And many American companies have actually fallen foul of the US sanctions on Iran but what happened to them?:

    https://www.cnbc.com/amp/2018/12/14/stephen-roach-asks-why-us-singled-out-huawei-for-sanctions-violation.html

    Are you surprised that Meng was singled out? Are you seeing that national security has nothing to do with anything here?

    Most of the world has gone a different way on climate change too and just for good measure, Donald Trump will be greeted in London by over a million Londoners who will tell him what they think:

    https://www.independent.co.uk/news/uk/politics/trump-uk-state-visit-when-london-protests-blimp-a8915331.html






    You aren't even worth mocking anymore. For all the stuff that Trump has done, he is the Leader of a Democratically elected government, yet, never a bad word about China from you.

    Hypocrite.
    No government is perfect. Not China. Not the US, Russia or the UK.

    I prefer to steer clear of politics as you know well. Sometimes business and politics overlap however. Like this Huawei case.

    Given the comments by high ranking US officials, will you now concede that this has very little to do with security and everything ro do with power and influence?

    Will you concede that the US president has overstepped the mark? Made unproven claims about Huawei? Escalated issues beyond reasonable levels? Threatened allies? Interfered with third countries? Provoked crisis situations with Iraq, Iran, North Korea and Venezuela?

    While far from perfect, by all accounts, China has not really kicked up the same kind of issues or created the same kind of issues. Huawei, definitely not.

    China is mostly reacting to changing situations, not provoking them with the same regularity as DT.

    Take a look at the world press. Who is getting criticised more? Trump or Xi?

    Why?

    If I mention the US it's because something happened that makes it worth commenting on (in the tech and security spheres).
  • Reply 38 of 43
    cornchipcornchip Posts: 1,943member
    avon b7 said:

    No government is perfect. 

    Well you got that right LoL


    watto_cobra
  • Reply 39 of 43
    tmaytmay Posts: 6,254member
    avon b7 said:
    tmay said:
    avon b7 said:
    avon b7 said:

    And the rest of the world is pretty much against those sanctions anyway.
    Who cares. They can do what they want. But don't get American companies involved by stealth, as your pal -- the Huawei lady under extradition orders in Canada -- is alleged to have done.
    Yes. 'alleged'. That something to remember.

    As for others doing 'as they want', that would be nice, except when they do that, they get threatened by their 'ally'. Some ally eh?!

    The world basically turned its back on the US on Iran sanctions. The US refused to listen and look at things now! Perhaps we should have seen this coming:

    https://www.theguardian.com/us-news/2019/may/17/john-bolton-iran-north-korea-venezuela-trump

    As for US companies, some of them wouldn't even be American today if it weren't for the government stopping buy outs on the grounds of 'fears' of losing 'control':

    https://www.cnbc.com/2018/03/12/trump-issues-order-prohibiting-broadcoms-bid-to-take-over-qualcomm.html

    And many American companies have actually fallen foul of the US sanctions on Iran but what happened to them?:

    https://www.cnbc.com/amp/2018/12/14/stephen-roach-asks-why-us-singled-out-huawei-for-sanctions-violation.html

    Are you surprised that Meng was singled out? Are you seeing that national security has nothing to do with anything here?

    Most of the world has gone a different way on climate change too and just for good measure, Donald Trump will be greeted in London by over a million Londoners who will tell him what they think:

    https://www.independent.co.uk/news/uk/politics/trump-uk-state-visit-when-london-protests-blimp-a8915331.html






    You aren't even worth mocking anymore. For all the stuff that Trump has done, he is the Leader of a Democratically elected government, yet, never a bad word about China from you.

    Hypocrite.
    No government is perfect. Not China. Not the US, Russia or the UK.

    I prefer to steer clear of politics as you know well. Sometimes business and politics overlap however. Like this Huawei case.

    Given the comments by high ranking US officials, will you now concede that this has very little to do with security and everything ro do with power and influence?

    Will you concede that the US president has overstepped the mark? Made unproven claims about Huawei? Escalated issues beyond reasonable levels? Threatened allies? Interfered with third countries? Provoked crisis situations with Iraq, Iran, North Korea and Venezuela?

    While far from perfect, by all accounts, China has not really kicked up the same kind of issues or created the same kind of issues. Huawei, definitely not.

    China is mostly reacting to changing situations, not provoking them with the same regularity as DT.

    Take a look at the world press. Who is getting criticised more? Trump or Xi?

    Why?

    If I mention the US it's because something happened that makes it worth commenting on (in the tech and security spheres).
    No, I won't concede anything of the sort.

    "While far from perfect". China is an authoritarian government. There is nothing you could state that will mitigate that fact. Certainly, you must be aware that Hong Kong is at risk of losing its democracy in the near term, and Taiwan in the medium term. That isn't just "politics". As well, there are near a million Uyghurs confined in camps, with security systems provided by Huawei, as the Chinese government works to crush their religion, culture, and forcibly assimilate them into the workforce.

    Hardly "politics".  

    Worse for Huawei, there is in the U.S., a growing consensus that China is an economic and national security threat to the world. Even the EU is coming around to this fact, with the expectation that Huawei will only get some peripheral contracts for antennas and such, and little in the way of contracts for the actual 5G core technology. 

    There's also the possibility that the U.S. and China won't come to a trade deal, and Xi needs that much more than Trump does.
    watto_cobra
  • Reply 40 of 43
    IreneWIreneW Posts: 302member
    tmay said:
    avon b7 said:
    tmay said:
    avon b7 said:
    avon b7 said:

    And the rest of the world is pretty much against those sanctions anyway.
    Who cares. They can do what they want. But don't get American companies involved by stealth, as your pal -- the Huawei lady under extradition orders in Canada -- is alleged to have done.
    Yes. 'alleged'. That something to remember.

    As for others doing 'as they want', that would be nice, except when they do that, they get threatened by their 'ally'. Some ally eh?!

    The world basically turned its back on the US on Iran sanctions. The US refused to listen and look at things now! Perhaps we should have seen this coming:

    https://www.theguardian.com/us-news/2019/may/17/john-bolton-iran-north-korea-venezuela-trump

    As for US companies, some of them wouldn't even be American today if it weren't for the government stopping buy outs on the grounds of 'fears' of losing 'control':

    https://www.cnbc.com/2018/03/12/trump-issues-order-prohibiting-broadcoms-bid-to-take-over-qualcomm.html

    And many American companies have actually fallen foul of the US sanctions on Iran but what happened to them?:

    https://www.cnbc.com/amp/2018/12/14/stephen-roach-asks-why-us-singled-out-huawei-for-sanctions-violation.html

    Are you surprised that Meng was singled out? Are you seeing that national security has nothing to do with anything here?

    Most of the world has gone a different way on climate change too and just for good measure, Donald Trump will be greeted in London by over a million Londoners who will tell him what they think:

    https://www.independent.co.uk/news/uk/politics/trump-uk-state-visit-when-london-protests-blimp-a8915331.html






    You aren't even worth mocking anymore. For all the stuff that Trump has done, he is the Leader of a Democratically elected government, yet, never a bad word about China from you.

    Hypocrite.
    No government is perfect. Not China. Not the US, Russia or the UK.

    I prefer to steer clear of politics as you know well. Sometimes business and politics overlap however. Like this Huawei case.

    Given the comments by high ranking US officials, will you now concede that this has very little to do with security and everything ro do with power and influence?

    Will you concede that the US president has overstepped the mark? Made unproven claims about Huawei? Escalated issues beyond reasonable levels? Threatened allies? Interfered with third countries? Provoked crisis situations with Iraq, Iran, North Korea and Venezuela?

    While far from perfect, by all accounts, China has not really kicked up the same kind of issues or created the same kind of issues. Huawei, definitely not.

    China is mostly reacting to changing situations, not provoking them with the same regularity as DT.

    Take a look at the world press. Who is getting criticised more? Trump or Xi?

    Why?

    If I mention the US it's because something happened that makes it worth commenting on (in the tech and security spheres).
    No, I won't concede anything of the sort.

    "While far from perfect". China is an authoritarian government.

    ....

    There's also the possibility that the U.S. and China won't come to a trade deal, and Xi needs that much more than Trump does.
    Actually, just because US is a democracy and China is  not, I don't think that is true anymore. What would American companies do without cheap Chinese labour?
    williamlondon
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