Third or fourth revision for a keyboard design Apple imply has basically no issues? They are being too proud here. Scrap the shitty design and go back to keyboards with some travel and with higher reliability.
I agree with you. They freaking need to get off their high horse and admit this keyboard is a complete failure. It's dragging their reputation and name down. The design is crap.
I just moments ago finished sending feedback to Apple letting them know that at least one buyer of a $5000 laptop is refusing to buy another one until I can be sure the keyboard is reliable.
The most expensive computer I ever bought has been the most frustrating machine I've ever owned because of the keyboard. Now Apple says "Don't worry, the new keyboard, despite being the same fundamental design, is better." Really? Define "better." Better enough for me to risk another six grand out of an audio engineer's salary? Not a chance. Once burned...
By stubbornly refusing to let this turkey die, Apple is discouraging me from buying another high-ticket item. That doesn't seem like a good strategy.
Everyone's personal experiences differ. I myself have had zero problems on my 2017 MBP with that keyboard. The only thing that I'm not a fan of is the keyboard being louder. Other than that, zero keyboard problems.
The folks that a complaining - assuming they actually own one - has me wondering what environment they're in that causes the keys to getting stuck. I've seen people use their laptops literally as dinner plates, with crud of every kind getting on their keyboard and just asking for keyboard failure.
It's obvious this recent design is not friendly in certain uses. It is Apple's responsibility to make these keyboards as reliable as can be. Then again, how reliable can they be if it turns out that the problem is with people not taking care of what is a precision electronic device?
Maybe Apple should consider that there are cases where people don't take care of their devices (as it happens in many enterprises and business). That's why companies, like Lenovo, have spill resistant keyboards in some high end Thinkpads and include dust as part of their Mil-Spec tests. Would be nice I Apple do something similar, don't you think?
Does it means Apple can use now low power DDR4 memory?
In theory, but it doesn't.
I wonder why Apple would not choose to use low power RAM now that the CPUs support it? Does anyone know if that would require a significant redesign or retooling? Are LP and regular RAM modules interchangeable? It just seems weird that a company so focussed on battery life would not take advantage of an opportunity to extend it. Apple took the time to update other parts of the machine -- keyboard and T2 -- I can't get my head around why they'd leave that old compromise in place.
Maybe we'll see a new model in the fall that addresses this. I hope so.
I love the extra cores though! Yum.
It's my understanding that these new chips from Intel do not support LDDR4. As usual, Intel is the problem and not Apple.
Correct. LP-DDR4 won't supported until Intel's 10nm mobile processors are released. Earliest would be this Fall.
Call me when they give up on the touchbar, add the function keys back and shrink the oversized touchpad. Till then I'll be on my 2017 version of the 2015 Macbook Pro with a great keyboard an a ton of useful ports.
You'll be waiting forever. I actually think this is Apple's future plans with respect to their laptop keyboards
"Much of the commentary regarding Mac keyboard trouble is along the lines of “Why doesn’t Apple just go back to the old keyboard design?”
My suspicion is that Apple designers have a defined vision for where to take the Mac. That vision includes removing most mechanical movements associated with the keyboards and instead having the keyboard be a piece of glass with tactile feedback. This would explain decisions like Touch Bar and coming up with keyboards that travel less. In my mind, there is no question that the strategy is meant to train MacBook users to eventually type on glass.
However, the design found with the butterfly mechanism is problematic. Instead of declaring defeat and retreating, Apple designers and engineers are trying to solve the problem by continuing to “improve” upon the design."
Does it means Apple can use now low power DDR4 memory?
In theory, but it doesn't.
I wonder why Apple would not choose to use low power RAM now that the CPUs support it? Does anyone know if that would require a significant redesign or retooling? Are LP and regular RAM modules interchangeable? It just seems weird that a company so focussed on battery life would not take advantage of an opportunity to extend it. Apple took the time to update other parts of the machine -- keyboard and T2 -- I can't get my head around why they'd leave that old compromise in place.
Maybe we'll see a new model in the fall that addresses this. I hope so.
I love the extra cores though! Yum.
That would be a long discussion. In a nut shell the technologies are not interchangeable. As for why Apple did not implement that could be for all sorts of reasons.
Low-power RAM won't be supported until 10nm processors come out
Third or fourth revision for a keyboard design Apple imply has basically no issues? They are being too proud here. Scrap the shitty design and go back to keyboards with some travel and with higher reliability.
In my opinion they can’t scrap the design in the current models because of space issues. Every component is presumed to be designed to fit within a certain space parameter and any change back to the former or different keyboard design simply won’t work. If a redesign of the keyboard is coming, and rumors say it is, then it will be in a completely new model of MacBook.
Looks like that's not happening until some time next year now.
My Late 2016 MacBook Pro (bought in January, 2017) is now in AppleCare service for the 2nd time for kernel panics. So far Apple has replaced the Logic Board, performed a Clean Install of Mojave twice and are now replacing the SSD Drive in hopes that will cure the kernel panics. If that doesn’t work the Apple store geniuses said they will discuss replacement options with me. What exactly are Apple’s replacement options for a computer that’s a few years old but covered under AppleCare?
Apart from addressing Pro-users' voracious appetites for processing performance, the newly revamped MacBook Pro models also address keyboard issues that have continued to dog Apple's butterfly keyboard design.
The company has maintained that its butterfly design is used without problem by the vast majority of its users and that its notebooks achieve overall quality levels that are the best it has ever delivered. However, it has worked to continued to improve the design of its ultra slim butterfly mechanism so as to substantially reduce issues users may experience with unresponsive or double-typing keys.
Where is this information coming from anyway? It's not mentioned at all in Apple's press release.
Apple gave a few tech media people keyboard info on background, and then leave it to the media folks to report it, with a given set of rules.
Yeah, I eventually found one that mentioned a call between Apple and reporters. Everything else simply used the exact same quotes about different "materials" in the keyboard and nothing else. We'll find out when iFixit tears it apart.
NICE!!! Just as my late 2012 15" MacBook Pro Retina is struggling with OS X 10.13! It just crashed for some mysterious reason. I was out of my office for 20 minutes, came back to the grey screen of death. Very reassuring.
I'd LOVE the i9 octo-core, but wonder if it has thermal issues similar to the 2018. I guess I'll wait for some hands-on reviews before biting the bullet.
I wouldn’t even consider one of these machines until there are long term quality reports. I’ve been burnt far too many times by Apple (actually computers in general) to be the first on the band wagon. However I must admit the spec look enticing. Will need to check pricing.
Yes, the specs look fantastic!
I rarely use the keyboard, so for me it’s not an issue. I intend to max out everything but the SSD when I order. I’ll probably stick with the slightly slower octo-core processor because of possible heat issues.
Honestly, I’ve been using Macs since the 512K and never had any major hardware issues. Although, dealing with SCSI was always a nightmare. That’s maybe a dozen Macs, PowerBooks and MacBook Pros The OS… System 6, System 7, System 8… sure, but rarely with OS X.
Not Mac OS 9? I remember that being a bit of a nightmare up til whatever the end was, 9.2.2? I always had a soft spot for Mac OS 8.6, at the time anyway. Yeah, SCSI was ... ugh. *shudder*. For all those people wishing for tinkering in their Macs, that was always a nightmare for me too — I had nothing but problems with my G3 ZIF upgrade, various expansion cards over the years (Voodoo 5 drivers!). My first PowerBook G4 where I moved away from that G3 tower was a dream, and the only major problem I've had with any of my Macs since then was my 2011 MacBook Pro and the four? five? motherboards it went through over 8 years due to dGPU failures and I think a faulty RAM slot (or that may have been the previous one I owned). I'm not afraid of a keyboard failure after that.
My Late 2016 MacBook Pro (bought in January, 2017) is now in AppleCare service for the 2nd time for kernel panics. So far Apple has replaced the Logic Board, performed a Clean Install of Mojave twice and are now replacing the SSD Drive in hopes that will cure the kernel panics. If that doesn’t work the Apple store geniuses said they will discuss replacement options with me. What exactly are Apple’s replacement options for a computer that’s a few years old but covered under AppleCare?
FYI, your storage is soldered to the logic board. Replacement, if they decide you have a lemon, most likely depends on refurb stock they have available for your particular model but in many cases they'll replace it with an equivalent newer model. With any luck you'd get the 2018.
Does it means Apple can use now low power DDR4 memory?
In theory, but it doesn't.
I wonder why Apple would not choose to use low power RAM now that the CPUs support it? Does anyone know if that would require a significant redesign or retooling? Are LP and regular RAM modules interchangeable? It just seems weird that a company so focussed on battery life would not take advantage of an opportunity to extend it. Apple took the time to update other parts of the machine -- keyboard and T2 -- I can't get my head around why they'd leave that old compromise in place.
Maybe we'll see a new model in the fall that addresses this. I hope so.
I love the extra cores though! Yum.
That would be a long discussion. In a nut shell the technologies are not interchangeable. As for why Apple did not implement that could be for all sorts of reasons.
Low-power RAM won't be supported until 10nm processors come out
And I will then continue to use my 2015 MBP - the last good MBP. At least is a 10 nm processor comes out next year it will be a big speed and battery improvement. Praying for a return to the old keyboard but not holding my breath.
The new quad-core 13-inch MacBook Pro mobile creation machine
The $1799 model now getting a 300MHz jump in CPU speed to use Intel's 8th Generation 15 Watt Core i5-8365 CPU with a Turbo Boost speed of 4.1 GHz.
The custom option for an Intel i7 is also getting upgraded by 300MHz to Intel's Core i7-8665U.
These are not the correct CPUs for this new release. Apple isn’t using 15W U-series with GT2 graphics on the Touch Bar model (or non-Touch Bar model for that matter).
I’m not sure what the new CPU model numbers are, but they’re an improvement to the 28W/GT3e parts used in the 2018 machines. So the I5-8259U 2.3/3.8GHz model is now 2.4/4.1GHz, and the I7-8559U 2.7/4.5GHz model has been upgraded to 2.8/4.7GHz.
I haven't seen any Intel announcements on new 28W Iris Plus 655 parts; I think these are probably custom SKUs made for Apple, maybe just better binned 8259/8559 parts.
Third or fourth revision for a keyboard design Apple imply has basically no issues? They are being too proud here. Scrap the shitty design and go back to keyboards with some travel and with higher reliability.
I agree with you. They freaking need to get off their high horse and admit this keyboard is a complete failure. It's dragging their reputation and name down. The design is crap.
I just moments ago finished sending feedback to Apple letting them know that at least one buyer of a $5000 laptop is refusing to buy another one until I can be sure the keyboard is reliable.
The most expensive computer I ever bought has been the most frustrating machine I've ever owned because of the keyboard. Now Apple says "Don't worry, the new keyboard, despite being the same fundamental design, is better." Really? Define "better." Better enough for me to risk another six grand out of an audio engineer's salary? Not a chance. Once burned...
By stubbornly refusing to let this turkey die, Apple is discouraging me from buying another high-ticket item. That doesn't seem like a good strategy.
Have you still not just gotten your keyboard fixed?
I tried. Apple Stores here are booking ten days out. I booked an appointment while things were slow, but a week later I got another project and had to cancel the appointment because I couldn't be without the machine. When the project was done I went to book again, but the earliest appointment was still a week-and-a-half away so I didn't bother.
That doesn't really affect the fundamental premise of my comment, though. Even after it's fixed (and assuming it STAYS fixed -- others have reported needing two or even three replacements), I'm still going to have lingering doubts about the reliability of this design. In my world, coming up with >$5K for a computer is a major budget challenge. This experience makes me much, much less likely to drop that sum on another MacBook Pro. I've gone from a position of assuming the hardware design is sound to wanting to see proof before buying.
The new quad-core 13-inch MacBook Pro mobile creation machine
The $1799 model now getting a 300MHz jump in CPU speed to use Intel's 8th Generation 15 Watt Core i5-8365 CPU with a Turbo Boost speed of 4.1 GHz.
The custom option for an Intel i7 is also getting upgraded by 300MHz to Intel's Core i7-8665U.
These are not the correct CPUs for this new release. Apple isn’t using 15W U-series with GT2 graphics on the Touch Bar model (or non-Touch Bar model for that matter).
I’m not sure what the new CPU model numbers are, but they’re an improvement to the 28W/GT3e parts used in the 2018 machines. So the I5-8259U 2.3/3.8GHz model is now 2.4/4.1GHz, and the I7-8559U 2.7/4.5GHz model has been upgraded to 2.8/4.7GHz.
I haven't seen any Intel announcements on new 28W Iris Plus 655 parts; I think these are probably custom SKUs made for Apple, maybe just better binned 8259/8559 parts.
Good correction!
On the low end, there is an i5-8269U at 2.6/4.2. I can easily see Apple asking Intel for price reduced parts bin of 8269U chips that can hit 2.4/4.1 at the rated TDP.
No commensurate i7-8569U though. Maybe it’s been in the plans and Apple for first dibs.
It looks like Apple’s MBP13 is the dominant customer for GT3e or Iris 655 GPU chips. Very very few other OEMs use them as far as I can tell. Wonder how long this type of relationship can last.
I like the comment here about Apple training us to be ready for no-moving-part keyboards.
Consider the iPhone home button. All glass, not an actual button, but has a taptic engine to shake when pressed. Feels EXACTLY like a button that clicks. Only rarely is my phone ever OFF. Press your home 'button' when the phone is fully-OFF. It turns to stone! It's like a marble counter top! Power back on? Button!
No doubt people are in Cupertino right now typing on glass-top (like an electric stove) keyboard prototypes, with iPhone button circles for every key, with individual taptic feedback engines, under each key. Nice.
I still remember the glass trackpad intro videos on the 3 months they spent getting the texture of the glass right, or asking "what does a click FEEL like?"
It would be fun if they hired me to type: "The quick brown fox jumped over the lazy dog" all day!
Cheers!
Eric.
Edit 1 : The touchbar is practice for what flat-glass keys should LOOK like, and the Home Button is practice for what flat-glass keys should FEEL like. Edit 2: Perhaps in System Prefs -> Keyboard, one can dial up and down the haptic feedback on keys, and vary one's own "click-feel", just like mouse-speed. Niiiiice.
Comments
http://blog.lenovo.com/en/blog/thinkpad-laptop-chamber-of-horrors-mil-spec-test/
https://p.widencdn.net/ky4bev/asset-thinkpad-mil-spec-flyer
"Much of the commentary regarding Mac keyboard trouble is along the lines of “Why doesn’t Apple just go back to the old keyboard design?”
https://www.aboveavalon.com/dailypremiumupdate/2019/4/1/apple-cancels-airpower-my-airpower-theory-mac-butterfly-keyboard-woes-continue
I realize patents aren't always a guarantee of anything but Apple has been granted many patents with respect to glass keyboards with tactile feedback.
Not Mac OS 9? I remember that being a bit of a nightmare up til whatever the end was, 9.2.2? I always had a soft spot for Mac OS 8.6, at the time anyway. Yeah, SCSI was ... ugh. *shudder*. For all those people wishing for tinkering in their Macs, that was always a nightmare for me too — I had nothing but problems with my G3 ZIF upgrade, various expansion cards over the years (Voodoo 5 drivers!). My first PowerBook G4 where I moved away from that G3 tower was a dream, and the only major problem I've had with any of my Macs since then was my 2011 MacBook Pro and the four? five? motherboards it went through over 8 years due to dGPU failures and I think a faulty RAM slot (or that may have been the previous one I owned). I'm not afraid of a keyboard failure after that.
With a $4880 laptop, $20 for a decent BT keyboard comfortably leads to a sub-$5000 solution that I can even work with.
Although still is option of tuesday release before WWDC
I’m not sure what the new CPU model numbers are, but they’re an improvement to the 28W/GT3e parts used in the 2018 machines. So the I5-8259U 2.3/3.8GHz model is now 2.4/4.1GHz, and the I7-8559U 2.7/4.5GHz model has been upgraded to 2.8/4.7GHz.
I haven't seen any Intel announcements on new 28W Iris Plus 655 parts; I think these are probably custom SKUs made for Apple, maybe just better binned 8259/8559 parts.
That doesn't really affect the fundamental premise of my comment, though. Even after it's fixed (and assuming it STAYS fixed -- others have reported needing two or even three replacements), I'm still going to have lingering doubts about the reliability of this design. In my world, coming up with >$5K for a computer is a major budget challenge. This experience makes me much, much less likely to drop that sum on another MacBook Pro. I've gone from a position of assuming the hardware design is sound to wanting to see proof before buying.
"I'll alert the media", butler Hobson to Arthur Bach, movie Arthur (1981)
On the low end, there is an i5-8269U at 2.6/4.2. I can easily see Apple asking Intel for price reduced parts bin of 8269U chips that can hit 2.4/4.1 at the rated TDP.
No commensurate i7-8569U though. Maybe it’s been in the plans and Apple for first dibs.
It looks like Apple’s MBP13 is the dominant customer for GT3e or Iris 655 GPU chips. Very very few other OEMs use them as far as I can tell. Wonder how long this type of relationship can last.
Consider the iPhone home button.
All glass, not an actual button, but has a taptic engine to shake when pressed.
Feels EXACTLY like a button that clicks.
Only rarely is my phone ever OFF.
Press your home 'button' when the phone is fully-OFF. It turns to stone! It's like a marble counter top!
Power back on? Button!
No doubt people are in Cupertino right now typing on glass-top (like an electric stove) keyboard prototypes, with iPhone button circles for every key, with individual taptic feedback engines, under each key. Nice.
I still remember the glass trackpad intro videos on the 3 months they spent getting the texture of the glass right, or asking "what does a click FEEL like?"
It would be fun if they hired me to type: "The quick brown fox jumped over the lazy dog" all day!
Cheers!
Eric.
Edit 1 : The touchbar is practice for what flat-glass keys should LOOK like, and the Home Button is practice for what flat-glass keys should FEEL like.
Edit 2: Perhaps in System Prefs -> Keyboard, one can dial up and down the haptic feedback on keys, and vary one's own "click-feel", just like mouse-speed. Niiiiice.