Why would anyone order one of these before keyboard reviews have come out?
Because this isn't as big of a deal as everyone is making it out to be? Just because there are a few that yell louder than the rest doesn't make a HUGE issue. Yes, there's an issue and Apple acknowledges the issue and hopefully has a permanent fix, but lets not exaggerate things here.
My Late 2016 MacBook Pro (bought in January, 2017) is now in AppleCare service for the 2nd time for kernel panics. So far Apple has replaced the Logic Board, performed a Clean Install of Mojave twice and are now replacing the SSD Drive in hopes that will cure the kernel panics. If that doesn’t work the Apple store geniuses said they will discuss replacement options with me. What exactly are Apple’s replacement options for a computer that’s a few years old but covered under AppleCare?
FYI, your storage is soldered to the logic board. Replacement, if they decide you have a lemon, most likely depends on refurb stock they have available for your particular model but in many cases they'll replace it with an equivalent newer model. With any luck you'd get the 2018.
Does the 2018 MacBook Pro’s have any problems that haven’t been fixed?
Third or fourth revision for a keyboard design Apple imply has basically no issues? They are being too proud here. Scrap the shitty design and go back to keyboards with some travel and with higher reliability.
I agree with you. They freaking need to get off their high horse and admit this keyboard is a complete failure. It's dragging their reputation and name down. The design is crap.
I just moments ago finished sending feedback to Apple letting them know that at least one buyer of a $5000 laptop is refusing to buy another one until I can be sure the keyboard is reliable.
The most expensive computer I ever bought has been the most frustrating machine I've ever owned because of the keyboard. Now Apple says "Don't worry, the new keyboard, despite being the same fundamental design, is better." Really? Define "better." Better enough for me to risk another six grand out of an audio engineer's salary? Not a chance. Once burned...
By stubbornly refusing to let this turkey die, Apple is discouraging me from buying another high-ticket item. That doesn't seem like a good strategy.
Have you still not just gotten your keyboard fixed?
I tried. Apple Stores here are booking ten days out. I booked an appointment while things were slow, but a week later I got another project and had to cancel the appointment because I couldn't be without the machine. When the project was done I went to book again, but the earliest appointment was still a week-and-a-half away so I didn't bother.
That doesn't really affect the fundamental premise of my comment, though. Even after it's fixed (and assuming it STAYS fixed -- others have reported needing two or even three replacements), I'm still going to have lingering doubts about the reliability of this design. In my world, coming up with >$5K for a computer is a major budget challenge. This experience makes me much, much less likely to drop that sum on another MacBook Pro. I've gone from a position of assuming the hardware design is sound to wanting to see proof before buying.
The fact is that Macs were not impervious before this. My 2011 got fixed like 5 times over the nearly 8 years I had it. You need a backup plan. You can always buy another Mac when you drop yours off and return it when you get yours back. That was even suggested to me by an Apple store employee more than once. Otherwise, you should consider getting a lower cost backup Mac to use during a repair for a couple days. I have an old Mac mini I've used in the past, or when I was in between Macs for a bit before ordering this one, borrowed an 11" Air from my sister's office and got a surprising amount of work done on it.
Or fix it, sell it, and buy something else if you think you'll be better served by a different machine.
My Late 2016 MacBook Pro (bought in January, 2017) is now in AppleCare service for the 2nd time for kernel panics. So far Apple has replaced the Logic Board, performed a Clean Install of Mojave twice and are now replacing the SSD Drive in hopes that will cure the kernel panics. If that doesn’t work the Apple store geniuses said they will discuss replacement options with me. What exactly are Apple’s replacement options for a computer that’s a few years old but covered under AppleCare?
FYI, your storage is soldered to the logic board. Replacement, if they decide you have a lemon, most likely depends on refurb stock they have available for your particular model but in many cases they'll replace it with an equivalent newer model. With any luck you'd get the 2018.
Does the 2018 MacBook Pro’s have any problems that haven’t been fixed?
Huh? Mine doesn't, at least not yet, but I'm sure some do as with any model ever. Also they've added it to the keyboard replacement program for 4 years and the 2018 would get the 2019 keyboard replacement in some cases, so that's promising.
I like the comment here about Apple training us to be ready for no-moving-part keyboards.
Consider the iPhone home button. All glass, not an actual button, but has a taptic engine to shake when pressed. Feels EXACTLY like a button that clicks. Only rarely is my phone ever OFF. Press your home 'button' when the phone is fully-OFF. It turns to stone! It's like a marble counter top! Power back on? Button!
No doubt people are in Cupertino right now typing on glass-top (like an electric stove) keyboard prototypes, with iPhone button circles for every key, with individual taptic feedback engines, under each key. Nice.
I still remember the glass trackpad intro videos on the 3 months they spent getting the texture of the glass right, or asking "what does a click FEEL like?"
It would be fun if they hired me to type: "The quick brown fox jumped over the lazy dog" all day!
Cheers!
Eric.
Edit 1 : The touchbar is practice for what flat-glass keys should LOOK like, and the Home Button is practice for what flat-glass keys should FEEL like. Edit 2: Perhaps in System Prefs -> Keyboard, one can dial up and down the haptic feedback on keys, and vary one's own "click-feel", just like mouse-speed. Niiiiice.
It seems like a great idea -- I always thought a virtual keyboard would be the ultimate experience -- but the Touvh Bar has actually changed my mind.
Because there are no physical boundaries, there's no way to locate a key by feel. Because the keys change depending on what you're doing, it's much harder to remember where particular keys are situated on the display. Both result in having to constantly look at the key display instead of the screen. It's much slower and less intuitive than a traditional physical keyboard.
My impression of a virtual keyboard as something that seems like a great idea but really isn't in real life was confirmed some months ago when I inherited an old iPad. I dislike typing on it so much that I find myself putting it down and grabbing my laptop.
Whether my feelings are intrinsic to the concept or the result of years of conditioning is still an open question. I'm prepared to be persuaded.
[...] Or fix it, sell it, and buy something else if you think you'll be better served by a different machine.
You just nailed the point: buy WHAT? Another MacBook Pro? New ones still use the same design, just with bandaids on the wounds.
I responded to a comment suggesting that sticking with this design is hurting Apple's reputation. I used my own experience as an example of how that may be true, as it has affected my willingness to buy anything that still uses it.
For all I know the bandaids may well solve the problem, but after being one of the the unlucky ones I'm reluctant to spend a lot of money to find out. Switching to a more conventional, time-tested design would overcome that objection. Quadrupling down on the butterfly keyboard HAS actually had an adverse effect on Apple's prospects for future sales in my particular household, so the person to whom I was responding might be right.
All that said, I get your point about either doing something about it or shutting up. It sees the Genius on Friday. Wish me luck.
My Late 2016 MacBook Pro (bought in January, 2017) is now in AppleCare service for the 2nd time for kernel panics. So far Apple has replaced the Logic Board, performed a Clean Install of Mojave twice and are now replacing the SSD Drive in hopes that will cure the kernel panics. If that doesn’t work the Apple store geniuses said they will discuss replacement options with me. What exactly are Apple’s replacement options for a computer that’s a few years old but covered under AppleCare?
FYI, your storage is soldered to the logic board. Replacement, if they decide you have a lemon, most likely depends on refurb stock they have available for your particular model but in many cases they'll replace it with an equivalent newer model. With any luck you'd get the 2018.
Does the 2018 MacBook Pro’s have any problems that haven’t been fixed?
Huh? Mine doesn't, at least not yet, but I'm sure some do as with any model ever. Also they've added it to the keyboard replacement program for 4 years and the 2018 would get the 2019 keyboard replacement in some cases, so that's promising.
I only meant after reading through the various comments in this thread that the 2018 MBP’s suffered from a Thermal Throttle issue that was hopefully fixed via a software update?
Luckily I haven’t encountered the sticking butterfly keyboard problem but they again I normally use a Bluetooth keyboard unless something goes wrong and I have to boot into Safe Mode.
[...] Or fix it, sell it, and buy something else if you think you'll be better served by a different machine.
You just nailed the point: buy WHAT? Another MacBook Pro? New ones still use the same design, just with bandaids on the wounds.
I responded to a comment suggesting that sticking with this design is hurting Apple's reputation. I used my own experience as an example of how that may be true, as it has affected my willingness to buy anything that still uses it.
For all I know the bandaids may well solve the problem, but after being one of the the unlucky ones I'm reluctant to spend a lot of money to find out. Switching to a more conventional, time-tested design would overcome that objection. Quadrupling down on the butterfly keyboard HAS actually had an adverse effect on Apple's prospects for future sales in my particular household, so the person to whom I was responding might be right.
All that said, I get your point about either doing something about it or shutting up. It sees the Genius on Friday. Wish me luck.
Like, an older MacBook Pro or Air that you can get by on for the couple days it may take to fix your Mac. I’m realizing for a while now that I should invest in just that in case something happens, but of course based on my numerous repairs with my 2011 and prior Macs— the point being, if it’s not a keyboard it could be anything else as it was for me on older models. If your professional life depends on it, you should have some kind of backup plan, and it doesn’t need to cost $5K. They’ll keep fixing it for at least four years, and at some point you may get upgraded in the process to a newer machine that could even possibly end up with the 2019 keyboard that for all we know is much more reliable. I dunno, just saying it’s not worth fretting over in advance, given they all break eventually.
Another thing you should most definitely do, get a personal item insurance policy! I did, and it covers everything from out of warranty parts failure to accidental damage or anything else your normal renters/homeowners insurance won’t cover, and without deductible. Mine is with State Farm and is like $120 a year I think for my $5K Mac? So when it goes tits up or I spill a glass of wine on it and Apple Doesn’t cover it for whatever reason, they’ll buy me a brand new Mac with equivalent specs. More or less redundant in many cases with the AppleCare I purchased, but figured it was better to cover all my bases.
My Late 2016 MacBook Pro (bought in January, 2017) is now in AppleCare service for the 2nd time for kernel panics. So far Apple has replaced the Logic Board, performed a Clean Install of Mojave twice and are now replacing the SSD Drive in hopes that will cure the kernel panics. If that doesn’t work the Apple store geniuses said they will discuss replacement options with me. What exactly are Apple’s replacement options for a computer that’s a few years old but covered under AppleCare?
FYI, your storage is soldered to the logic board. Replacement, if they decide you have a lemon, most likely depends on refurb stock they have available for your particular model but in many cases they'll replace it with an equivalent newer model. With any luck you'd get the 2018.
Does the 2018 MacBook Pro’s have any problems that haven’t been fixed?
Huh? Mine doesn't, at least not yet, but I'm sure some do as with any model ever. Also they've added it to the keyboard replacement program for 4 years and the 2018 would get the 2019 keyboard replacement in some cases, so that's promising.
I only meant after reading through the various comments in this thread that the 2018 MBP’s suffered from a Thermal Throttle issue that was hopefully fixed via a software update?
Luckily I haven’t encountered the sticking butterfly keyboard problem but they again I normally use a Bluetooth keyboard unless something goes wrong and I have to boot into Safe Mode.
There was something with the i9 hexacore that was quickly fixed by Apple.
Like, an older MacBook Pro or Air that you can get by on for the couple days it may take to fix your Mac.
I meant my "Buy what?" comment in response to your suggestion that if I'm not happy with this Mac I should sell it and buy something else. My only choices are another butterfly keyboard or a not-Mac. I don't find either particularly enticing.
Maybe I'll feel better about the butterfly keys after the repair. We'll see.
I like the comment here about Apple training us to be ready for no-moving-part keyboards.
Consider the iPhone home button. All glass, not an actual button, but has a taptic engine to shake when pressed. Feels EXACTLY like a button that clicks. Only rarely is my phone ever OFF. Press your home 'button' when the phone is fully-OFF. It turns to stone! It's like a marble counter top! Power back on? Button!
Yeah, I'm in agreement with the others here that this is probably what is happening. The question is whether Apple will stubbornly see it through, despite all the bad reviews, or eventually give in and correct course. It's kind of a game of 'PR chicken.'
Given the number of people in these threads who seem to not even use their laptop keyboards, I suppose Apple knows the stats on that and has just decided mobile typing can be a think of the past? (ie: screw all those people who aren't just commuting desktop-hub to desktop-hub?) Or, maybe they think their auto-correct is good enough that even with a horrific keyboard, people will be able to type sufficiently fast to kind of muddle through?
I type some on my iPad (as it is now my mobile device). I can see how haptic would make it better, though finger-positioning (is and) would be an issue. Auto-correct and suggestions help, but it's hard to say how much it helps vs how much it slows me down and is a distraction. All I know is that I can't type nearly as fast. Again, I suppose Apple is OK with that, so long as they can achieve THEIR goals?
macxpress said: Because this isn't as big of a deal as everyone is making it out to be? Just because there are a few that yell louder than the rest doesn't make a HUGE issue. Yes, there's an issue and Apple acknowledges the issue and hopefully has a permanent fix, but lets not exaggerate things here.
What isn't a big deal? The breaking, or the breaking + the experience in general? I'm sure the braking (and fixing) is a relatively small sub-set, but this is about more than the outright breaking. I follow a dozen or so podcasts and tech people, mostly Apple oriented. Out of that set of people, only a couple actually don't hate the keyboard. Out of people I know who use them, personally, again it's a similar situation (one likes it, the rest tolerating it).
If the bar is, "not everyone hates it" I'm sure they will be just fine, and we're making too big a deal of it? My quandary is more where you people are coming from who are so adamant to defend Apple on this one.
pulseimages said: Does the 2018 MacBook Pro’s have any problems that haven’t been fixed?
Apparently, the keyboard.
fastasleep said: The fact is that Macs were not impervious before this. My 2011 got fixed like 5 times over the nearly 8 years I had it. You need a backup plan. You can always buy another Mac when you drop yours off and return it when you get yours back. That was even suggested to me by an Apple store employee more than once.
This is true, but I think the issue here is more that it is a design flaw Apple should fix, and has been working on now for over 4 years. When we were dealing with some flaky dGPUs or stuff like that, it is more understandable, as every product often has some faulty units or even a particular flaw. But, yes, if you're operating a business with your equipment, you should have a plan-B of some kind.
Actually, that was one of the major issues Apple had getting into corporate IT, as the other major vendors had such exchange programs, and Apple didn't. (And, I helped get Apple into our server rooms, because we had the budget to buy spares, and I was willing to cart the broken ones down the block to the Apple Store.)
fastasleep said: Also they've added it to the keyboard replacement program for 4 years and the 2018 would get the 2019 keyboard replacement in some cases, so that's promising.
Promising that the 2018 has an issue that would need such a program.
lorin schultz said: It seems like a great idea -- I always thought a virtual keyboard would be the ultimate experience -- but the Touvh Bar has actually changed my mind. Because there are no physical boundaries, there's no way to locate a key by feel. Because the keys change depending on what you're doing, it's much harder to remember where particular keys are situated on the display. Both result in having to constantly look at the key display instead of the screen. It's much slower and less intuitive than a traditional physical keyboard.
I think it is even worse than that, as the Touch Bar isn't meant as a primary input device, or the trackpads (I have a Magic Trackpad 2 on my desk, btw, which I love... or at least it saves me from constant mouse use and associated pain!) where you don't have to click in a precise spot. As mentioned above, I can type on my iPad, just not nearly as well as on a physical keyboard. That's not good enough for me for serious work, which is why I don't use my iPad for serous work (or I use an external keyboard).
But, I'm not sure Apple is really in the serious work game so much anymore as the 'sell mass quantities' game. The 'cool factor' you mention might sell a bunch, and since most of the users just hook up external keyboards anyway...
lorin schultz said: You just nailed the point: buy WHAT? Another MacBook Pro? New ones still use the same design, just with bandaids on the wounds. I responded to a comment suggesting that sticking with this design is hurting Apple's reputation.
Basically, some kind of backup machine that can get the work done while the main one is in for repair... like a Mac mini, or other laptop, etc. But, as you say... they've pretty much ruined the entire laptop lineup now, but you could use an external keyboard at the desk, I guess. (Assuming you work mostly mobile.)
re: reputation - Does that matter if the future is Game of Thrones II? If I can see the shortcomings in such a strategy, one would think 'brilliant' business minds being paid millions per year would be able to, right?
pulseimages said: I only meant after reading through the various comments in this thread that the 2018 MBP’s suffered from a Thermal Throttle issue that was hopefully fixed via a software update?
I think most of the 'thermal throttle' issues (knock on wood!) have been about not getting 100% of the theoretical performance, not the machine breaking. But, I do wonder how much poor thermals will impact longevity. Apple doesn't have a great track record on that with their pro laptops. Even the designs I loved in the 2000s and such were poor in that regard.
I have a 2016 MacBook Pro. Aside from a brief early problem with repeating keys that soon resolved itself, I haven't had any flaws with the keyboard. It works as it was designed to.
Having said that, I object to the design of the keyboard, especially as a touch typist. I find it absolutely jarring, especially when using it immediately after using my mechanical external keyboard:
a) The key travel is insanely shallow, again even more jarring after the satisfying key travel of my external keyboard. My fingers start to hurt after long typing sessions by I can type on my mechanical keyboard for hours at a time with no problem. b) The new arrow key design with double sized left and right arrow keys makes it more difficult to distinguish each key by touch. c) The TouchBar makes it impossible to find function keys and volume/etc keys by touch. d) There are too many accidental clicks with my palms on the touchpad while I'm typing. Why can't Apple implement functionality in Linux distros that disables the touchpad while typing?
There are silver linings however:
1) Touch ID is awesome and has added untold hours to my life saving me from retyping passwords to unlock my session 2) I can map ESC to CapsLock easily. As a vim user this is much appreciated
javacowboy said: a) The key travel is insanely shallow, again even more jarring after the satisfying key travel of my external keyboard. My fingers start to hurt after long typing sessions by I can type on my mechanical keyboard for hours at a time with no problem.
In light of comments about Apple potentially leading us towards a touch-screen based 'keyboard' on laptops in the future, I think I'd make a couple of observations in regard to your comment. 1. I think the idea is to get us used to not smacking the keys as hard... so I guess if you ONLY typed on this keyboard, you'd eventually gravitate that way in comparison to mechanical keyboards. 2. But, ironically, I actually find it easier to type on my iPad, even without haptic, than I do on my son's MBP. (Assuming a transition to touch screen 'keyboard'.) Mission accomplished? ie. instead of it being a stepping stone, maybe it is such a horrible experience that we'll be glad to go a touch-screen based keyboard?
Third or fourth revision for a keyboard design Apple imply has basically no issues? They are being too proud here. Scrap the shitty design and go back to keyboards with some travel and with higher reliability.
I agree with you. They freaking need to get off their high horse and admit this keyboard is a complete failure. It's dragging their reputation and name down. The design is crap.
I just moments ago finished sending feedback to Apple letting them know that at least one buyer of a $5000 laptop is refusing to buy another one until I can be sure the keyboard is reliable.
The most expensive computer I ever bought has been the most frustrating machine I've ever owned because of the keyboard. Now Apple says "Don't worry, the new keyboard, despite being the same fundamental design, is better." Really? Define "better." Better enough for me to risk another six grand out of an audio engineer's salary? Not a chance. Once burned...
By stubbornly refusing to let this turkey die, Apple is discouraging me from buying another high-ticket item. That doesn't seem like a good strategy.
Everyone's personal experiences differ. I myself have had zero problems on my 2017 MBP with that keyboard. The only thing that I'm not a fan of is the keyboard being louder. Other than that, zero keyboard problems.
The folks that a complaining - assuming they actually own one - has me wondering what environment they're in that causes the keys to getting stuck. I've seen people use their laptops literally as dinner plates, with crud of every kind getting on their keyboard and just asking for keyboard failure.
It's obvious this recent design is not friendly in certain uses. It is Apple's responsibility to make these keyboards as reliable as can be. Then again, how reliable can they be if it turns out that the problem is with people not taking care of what is a precision electronic device?
I get your position -- people should be more careful with their keyboards.
I think many of these people that you're criticizing — the ones eating over their keyboards, not working in clean offices, and so on— have used other keyboards all their lives without any issues. So now they have a new, expensive device that doesn't work in the same conditions that older, cheaper ones did. That's frustrating for them.
Third or fourth revision for a keyboard design Apple imply has basically no issues? They are being too proud here. Scrap the shitty design and go back to keyboards with some travel and with higher reliability.
I agree with you. They freaking need to get off their high horse and admit this keyboard is a complete failure. It's dragging their reputation and name down. The design is crap.
I just moments ago finished sending feedback to Apple letting them know that at least one buyer of a $5000 laptop is refusing to buy another one until I can be sure the keyboard is reliable.
The most expensive computer I ever bought has been the most frustrating machine I've ever owned because of the keyboard. Now Apple says "Don't worry, the new keyboard, despite being the same fundamental design, is better." Really? Define "better." Better enough for me to risk another six grand out of an audio engineer's salary? Not a chance. Once burned...
By stubbornly refusing to let this turkey die, Apple is discouraging me from buying another high-ticket item. That doesn't seem like a good strategy.
Everyone's personal experiences differ. I myself have had zero problems on my 2017 MBP with that keyboard. The only thing that I'm not a fan of is the keyboard being louder. Other than that, zero keyboard problems.
The folks that a complaining - assuming they actually own one - has me wondering what environment they're in that causes the keys to getting stuck. I've seen people use their laptops literally as dinner plates, with crud of every kind getting on their keyboard and just asking for keyboard failure.
It's obvious this recent design is not friendly in certain uses. It is Apple's responsibility to make these keyboards as reliable as can be. Then again, how reliable can they be if it turns out that the problem is with people not taking care of what is a precision electronic device?
I get your position -- people should be more careful with their keyboards.
I think many of these people that you're criticizing — the ones eating over their keyboards, not working in clean offices, and so on— have used other keyboards all their lives without any issues. So now they have a new, expensive device that doesn't work in the same conditions that older, cheaper ones did. That's frustrating for them.
This is exactly my complaint. I paid $2500 for a premium device with a keyboard that is worse in every way than the keyboard on my 8 year old MB Air. (And every other Mac keyboard I’ve used.) the general goal of technology is improving the design. At the bare minimum, if something is worse in some respects it’s made up for by improvements in others.
My Late 2016 MacBook Pro (bought in January, 2017) is now in AppleCare service for the 2nd time for kernel panics. So far Apple has replaced the Logic Board, performed a Clean Install of Mojave twice and are now replacing the SSD Drive in hopes that will cure the kernel panics. If that doesn’t work the Apple store geniuses said they will discuss replacement options with me. What exactly are Apple’s replacement options for a computer that’s a few years old but covered under AppleCare?
FYI, your storage is soldered to the logic board. Replacement, if they decide you have a lemon, most likely depends on refurb stock they have available for your particular model but in many cases they'll replace it with an equivalent newer model. With any luck you'd get the 2018.
Does the 2018 MacBook Pro’s have any problems that haven’t been fixed?
Huh? Mine doesn't, at least not yet, but I'm sure some do as with any model ever. Also they've added it to the keyboard replacement program for 4 years and the 2018 would get the 2019 keyboard replacement in some cases, so that's promising.
I only meant after reading through the various comments in this thread that the 2018 MBP’s suffered from a Thermal Throttle issue that was hopefully fixed via a software update?
Luckily I haven’t encountered the sticking butterfly keyboard problem but they again I normally use a Bluetooth keyboard unless something goes wrong and I have to boot into Safe Mode.
There was something with the i9 hexacore that was quickly fixed by Apple.
My Late 2016 MacBook Pro (bought in January, 2017) is now in AppleCare service for the 2nd time for kernel panics. So far Apple has replaced the Logic Board, performed a Clean Install of Mojave twice and are now replacing the SSD Drive in hopes that will cure the kernel panics. If that doesn’t work the Apple store geniuses said they will discuss replacement options with me. What exactly are Apple’s replacement options for a computer that’s a few years old but covered under AppleCare?
FYI, your storage is soldered to the logic board. Replacement, if they decide you have a lemon, most likely depends on refurb stock they have available for your particular model but in many cases they'll replace it with an equivalent newer model. With any luck you'd get the 2018.
I’m bringing it in again to Apple tomorrow after picking it up last Friday. I was reading through the Terms and Conditions of AppleCare and it said when Apple decides to replace a product.
”All replacement products provided under this Plan will at a minimum be functionally equivalent to the original product. If Apple exchanges the Covered Equipment, the original product becomes Apple’s property and the replacement product is your property, with coverage effective for the remaining period of the Plan.
My original AppleCare coverage ends January 19, 2020 so if Apple replaces my buggy MBP with a refurbished or new MBP does that mean I only have AppleCare coverage on the replacement until 1/19/2020 as well? That doesn’t seem right since unforeseen problems can arise from the replacement machine or can you purchase additional AppleCare for the replacement?
My Late 2016 MacBook Pro (bought in January, 2017) is now in AppleCare service for the 2nd time for kernel panics. So far Apple has replaced the Logic Board, performed a Clean Install of Mojave twice and are now replacing the SSD Drive in hopes that will cure the kernel panics. If that doesn’t work the Apple store geniuses said they will discuss replacement options with me. What exactly are Apple’s replacement options for a computer that’s a few years old but covered under AppleCare?
FYI, your storage is soldered to the logic board. Replacement, if they decide you have a lemon, most likely depends on refurb stock they have available for your particular model but in many cases they'll replace it with an equivalent newer model. With any luck you'd get the 2018.
Does the 2018 MacBook Pro’s have any problems that haven’t been fixed?
Huh? Mine doesn't, at least not yet, but I'm sure some do as with any model ever. Also they've added it to the keyboard replacement program for 4 years and the 2018 would get the 2019 keyboard replacement in some cases, so that's promising.
I only meant after reading through the various comments in this thread that the 2018 MBP’s suffered from a Thermal Throttle issue that was hopefully fixed via a software update?
Luckily I haven’t encountered the sticking butterfly keyboard problem but they again I normally use a Bluetooth keyboard unless something goes wrong and I have to boot into Safe Mode.
There was something with the i9 hexacore that was quickly fixed by Apple.
My Late 2016 MacBook Pro (bought in January, 2017) is now in AppleCare service for the 2nd time for kernel panics. So far Apple has replaced the Logic Board, performed a Clean Install of Mojave twice and are now replacing the SSD Drive in hopes that will cure the kernel panics. If that doesn’t work the Apple store geniuses said they will discuss replacement options with me. What exactly are Apple’s replacement options for a computer that’s a few years old but covered under AppleCare?
FYI, your storage is soldered to the logic board. Replacement, if they decide you have a lemon, most likely depends on refurb stock they have available for your particular model but in many cases they'll replace it with an equivalent newer model. With any luck you'd get the 2018.
I’m bringing it in again to Apple tomorrow after picking it up last Friday. I was reading through the Terms and Conditions of AppleCare and it said when Apple decides to replace a product.
”All replacement products provided under this Plan will at a minimum be functionally equivalent to the original product. If Apple exchanges the Covered Equipment, the original product becomes Apple’s property and the replacement product is your property, with coverage effective for the remaining period of the Plan.
My original AppleCare coverage ends January 19, 2020 so if Apple replaces my buggy MBP with a refurbished or new MBP does that mean I only have AppleCare coverage on the replacement until 1/19/2020 as well? That doesn’t seem right since unforeseen problems can arise from the replacement machine or can you purchase additional AppleCare for the replacement?
You would only have the remaining period. I recommend getting a personal item policy from your insurance company, that will cover any kind of damage whether it’s a failure of its own or you dump a glass of wine on it, with no deductible. I am paying $110 a year or so to cover my $5K machine with State Farm right now for this reason, even though I have Apple Care too.
The upgrade 13" CPU listed, the i7-8665U, is a quad core, the header lists a hexacore? Is there another upgrade option or should that header be quad core still?
Edit: Yes it looks like the 13" is still a quad core
It is.
Wrong CPUs listed for the 13-inch. i7-8569U and i5-8279U.
pulseimages said: ”All replacement products provided under this Plan will at a minimum be functionally equivalent to the original product. If Apple exchanges the Covered Equipment, the original product becomes Apple’s property and the replacement product is your property, with coverage effective for the remaining period of the Plan.
Yeah, though 4 years is better than nothing, it still kind of limits the useful life of the laptop to 4 years w/o repairs so expensive it wouldn't be worth fixing. And, if you bought the machine years ago, it might almost be up.
It seems the general useful-life has been shrinking across the industry (mostly due to software not supporting older hardware, not real lack of hardware abilities), but I used to keep computers WAY longer than 4 years.
Comments
Or fix it, sell it, and buy something else if you think you'll be better served by a different machine.
Because there are no physical boundaries, there's no way to locate a key by feel. Because the keys change depending on what you're doing, it's much harder to remember where particular keys are situated on the display. Both result in having to constantly look at the key display instead of the screen. It's much slower and less intuitive than a traditional physical keyboard.
My impression of a virtual keyboard as something that seems like a great idea but really isn't in real life was confirmed some months ago when I inherited an old iPad. I dislike typing on it so much that I find myself putting it down and grabbing my laptop.
Whether my feelings are intrinsic to the concept or the result of years of conditioning is still an open question. I'm prepared to be persuaded.
I responded to a comment suggesting that sticking with this design is hurting Apple's reputation. I used my own experience as an example of how that may be true, as it has affected my willingness to buy anything that still uses it.
For all I know the bandaids may well solve the problem, but after being one of the the unlucky ones I'm reluctant to spend a lot of money to find out. Switching to a more conventional, time-tested design would overcome that objection. Quadrupling down on the butterfly keyboard HAS actually had an adverse effect on Apple's prospects for future sales in my particular household, so the person to whom I was responding might be right.
All that said, I get your point about either doing something about it or shutting up. It sees the Genius on Friday. Wish me luck.
Luckily I haven’t encountered the sticking butterfly keyboard problem but they again I normally use a Bluetooth keyboard unless something goes wrong and I have to boot into Safe Mode.
Another thing you should most definitely do, get a personal item insurance policy! I did, and it covers everything from out of warranty parts failure to accidental damage or anything else your normal renters/homeowners insurance won’t cover, and without deductible. Mine is with State Farm and is like $120 a year I think for my $5K Mac? So when it goes tits up or I spill a glass of wine on it and Apple Doesn’t cover it for whatever reason, they’ll buy me a brand new Mac with equivalent specs. More or less redundant in many cases with the AppleCare I purchased, but figured it was better to cover all my bases.
There was something with the i9 hexacore that was quickly fixed by Apple.
Maybe I'll feel better about the butterfly keys after the repair. We'll see.
Given the number of people in these threads who seem to not even use their laptop keyboards, I suppose Apple knows the stats on that and has just decided mobile typing can be a think of the past? (ie: screw all those people who aren't just commuting desktop-hub to desktop-hub?) Or, maybe they think their auto-correct is good enough that even with a horrific keyboard, people will be able to type sufficiently fast to kind of muddle through?
I type some on my iPad (as it is now my mobile device). I can see how haptic would make it better, though finger-positioning (is and) would be an issue. Auto-correct and suggestions help, but it's hard to say how much it helps vs how much it slows me down and is a distraction. All I know is that I can't type nearly as fast. Again, I suppose Apple is OK with that, so long as they can achieve THEIR goals?
If the bar is, "not everyone hates it" I'm sure they will be just fine, and we're making too big a deal of it? My quandary is more where you people are coming from who are so adamant to defend Apple on this one.
Apparently, the keyboard.
This is true, but I think the issue here is more that it is a design flaw Apple should fix, and has been working on now for over 4 years. When we were dealing with some flaky dGPUs or stuff like that, it is more understandable, as every product often has some faulty units or even a particular flaw. But, yes, if you're operating a business with your equipment, you should have a plan-B of some kind.
Actually, that was one of the major issues Apple had getting into corporate IT, as the other major vendors had such exchange programs, and Apple didn't. (And, I helped get Apple into our server rooms, because we had the budget to buy spares, and I was willing to cart the broken ones down the block to the Apple Store.)
Promising that the 2018 has an issue that would need such a program.
lorin schultz said:
It seems like a great idea -- I always thought a virtual keyboard would be the ultimate experience -- but the Touvh Bar has actually changed my mind.
Because there are no physical boundaries, there's no way to locate a key by feel. Because the keys change depending on what you're doing, it's much harder to remember where particular keys are situated on the display. Both result in having to constantly look at the key display instead of the screen. It's much slower and less intuitive than a traditional physical keyboard.
I think it is even worse than that, as the Touch Bar isn't meant as a primary input device, or the trackpads (I have a Magic Trackpad 2 on my desk, btw, which I love... or at least it saves me from constant mouse use and associated pain!) where you don't have to click in a precise spot. As mentioned above, I can type on my iPad, just not nearly as well as on a physical keyboard. That's not good enough for me for serious work, which is why I don't use my iPad for serous work (or I use an external keyboard).
But, I'm not sure Apple is really in the serious work game so much anymore as the 'sell mass quantities' game. The 'cool factor' you mention might sell a bunch, and since most of the users just hook up external keyboards anyway...
lorin schultz said:
You just nailed the point: buy WHAT? Another MacBook Pro? New ones still use the same design, just with bandaids on the wounds.
I responded to a comment suggesting that sticking with this design is hurting Apple's reputation. Basically, some kind of backup machine that can get the work done while the main one is in for repair... like a Mac mini, or other laptop, etc. But, as you say... they've pretty much ruined the entire laptop lineup now, but you could use an external keyboard at the desk, I guess. (Assuming you work mostly mobile.)
re: reputation - Does that matter if the future is Game of Thrones II? If I can see the shortcomings in such a strategy, one would think 'brilliant' business minds being paid millions per year would be able to, right?
pulseimages said:
I only meant after reading through the various comments in this thread that the 2018 MBP’s suffered from a Thermal Throttle issue that was hopefully fixed via a software update? I think most of the 'thermal throttle' issues (knock on wood!) have been about not getting 100% of the theoretical performance, not the machine breaking. But, I do wonder how much poor thermals will impact longevity. Apple doesn't have a great track record on that with their pro laptops. Even the designs I loved in the 2000s and such were poor in that regard.
I have a 2016 MacBook Pro. Aside from a brief early problem with repeating keys that soon resolved itself, I haven't had any flaws with the keyboard. It works as it was designed to.
Having said that, I object to the design of the keyboard, especially as a touch typist. I find it absolutely jarring, especially when using it immediately after using my mechanical external keyboard:
a) The key travel is insanely shallow, again even more jarring after the satisfying key travel of my external keyboard. My fingers start to hurt after long typing sessions by I can type on my mechanical keyboard for hours at a time with no problem.
b) The new arrow key design with double sized left and right arrow keys makes it more difficult to distinguish each key by touch.
c) The TouchBar makes it impossible to find function keys and volume/etc keys by touch.
d) There are too many accidental clicks with my palms on the touchpad while I'm typing. Why can't Apple implement functionality in Linux distros that disables the touchpad while typing?
There are silver linings however:
1) Touch ID is awesome and has added untold hours to my life saving me from retyping passwords to unlock my session
2) I can map ESC to CapsLock easily. As a vim user this is much appreciated
1. I think the idea is to get us used to not smacking the keys as hard... so I guess if you ONLY typed on this keyboard, you'd eventually gravitate that way in comparison to mechanical keyboards.
2. But, ironically, I actually find it easier to type on my iPad, even without haptic, than I do on my son's MBP. (Assuming a transition to touch screen 'keyboard'.) Mission accomplished? ie. instead of it being a stepping stone, maybe it is such a horrible experience that we'll be glad to go a touch-screen based keyboard?
I think many of these people that you're criticizing — the ones eating over their keyboards, not working in clean offices, and so on— have used other keyboards all their lives without any issues. So now they have a new, expensive device that doesn't work in the same conditions that older, cheaper ones did. That's frustrating for them.
”All replacement products provided under this Plan will at a minimum be functionally equivalent to the original product. If Apple exchanges the Covered Equipment, the original product becomes Apple’s property and the replacement product is your property, with coverage effective for the remaining period of the Plan.
My original AppleCare coverage ends January 19, 2020 so if Apple replaces my buggy MBP with a refurbished or new MBP does that mean I only have AppleCare coverage on the replacement until 1/19/2020 as well? That doesn’t seem right since unforeseen problems can arise from the replacement machine or can you purchase additional AppleCare for the replacement?
It seems the general useful-life has been shrinking across the industry (mostly due to software not supporting older hardware, not real lack of hardware abilities), but I used to keep computers WAY longer than 4 years.