New iPadOS lets you use a mouse to control your iPad and iPhone apps [u]

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Comments

  • Reply 41 of 66
    GeorgeBMacGeorgeBMac Posts: 11,421member
    xixo said:
    Saying that an iThing can be a full replacement for a Mac is like saying a transvestite can be a full replacement for a woman.

    It can, but it's an ersatz version of the original.

    Make no mistake, adding mouse support is a capitulation. Hiding control inside accessibility settings only perpetuates the minification of the iOS UI.

    Like a supermodel who's had a few too many liposuctions, the end result isn't pretty. 
    I agree.
    I think that instead of being a full replacement for a MacBook, an iPad with keyboard and mouse will provide an alternative to MacBooks that will meet the needs of "Some of the people all of the time.  Or, all of the people some of the time".
    cgWerksmelgross
  • Reply 42 of 66
    anantksundaramanantksundaram Posts: 20,403member
    entropys said:
    I think putting mouse support as an assistive measure on the iPad is appropriate.  It should be finger based first and foremost
    Why?
  • Reply 43 of 66
    anantksundaramanantksundaram Posts: 20,403member

    I get why Apple didn’t mention this on site but at the same time a lot of people aren’t going to know about so they’re still going to knock the iPad as not being a proper computer. If Apple thinks most support on the iPad is OK why not just say so?
    Because it's an accessibility feature and not a primary method of input.
    What is the practical difference between an "accessibility feature" and "primary method of input"? If it's turned on, it does become a co-primary method or even 100% primary method, no?
  • Reply 44 of 66
    cgWerkscgWerks Posts: 2,952member
    macgui said:
    You don't have to be disabled or impaired to have trouble getting text highlighted or placing the cursor where you want it, quickly. It can be especially annoying if the iPad is in a case that has a thick border around the perimeter.  This feature wasn't on my list of I Really Want...  but I'll take it.
    Me too, but did you watch the little video in that tweet? That isn't going to help, as far as I can see.

    GeorgeBMac said:
    The original track point originated with IBM 30 years ago but continues to this day in Lenovo Thinkpads.  And, while it has both ergonomic advantages and disadvantages to an external mouse, it is ideal for a small keyboard without an external mouse.
    I hate those, though. :) I think I'll just deal with trying to select via touch if it were something like that.

    That said, I had to do some work in a computer lab a few weeks ago. I was (I forget being on Macs) astounded at the awful quality of the keyboards mice. As much as I hate the new MBP keyboard, I can imagine it is quite an upgrade from what it seems all too many PC people are used to.

    I guess there must be a big difference between how an 'average user' works (and what they put up with) and those who are actually efficient, with reasonable equipment.

    GeorgeBMac said:
    I think the new MacPro demonstrates that Apple is returning to pragmatism and practicality (aka:  "Making people's lives better") over the design and exclusivity nonsense they've been locked into the past several years.  

    If, in the final version of iOS13, Apple hasn't perfected pointing, text selection and the cut/copy/paste functions I have confidence that they soon will.   Restricting that functionality is not a hill that they want to stand on.
    Gosh, do I hope you're right! (Aside from all the gained productivity and happiness, I enjoyed my Apple-evangelist days more than being seen as a troll!)

    Here's hoping it ends up supporting the Magic Mouse and Keyboard, or the MS Arc Mouse.  I really like the latter as well.  It's not as versatile as the Magic Mouse, but comes close.
    Or, the Magic Trackpad... IMO, better AND easier to pack. (I've had several Magic Mice and they just hurt my hand.)

    GeorgeBMac said:
    I agree.
    I think that instead of being a full replacement for a MacBook, an iPad with keyboard and mouse will provide an alternative to MacBooks that will meet the needs of "Some of the people all of the time.  Or, all of the people some of the time".
    Yeah, they aren't the same, but they don't need to be. They just need to be good enough, which they haven't been, so far. (And, I spent years iOS only while mobile and I recently switched back again... but it isn't something I look forward to being productive with, at least yet. I'm hoping this will somewhat change that.)

    anantksundaram said:
    What is the practical difference between an "accessibility feature" and "primary method of input"? If it's turned on, it does become a co-primary method or even 100% primary method, no?
    The big issue is keeping it co-primary in terms of app development. If devs start developing apps targeted at the keyboard/mouse using iOS people, it starts becoming a problem when the keyboard/mouse isn't there, or the non-keyboard/mouse people.
  • Reply 45 of 66
    22july201322july2013 Posts: 3,564member
    Trackballs? 
    GeorgeBMac
  • Reply 46 of 66
    cgWerkscgWerks Posts: 2,952member
    Trackballs? 
    Heh, yeah, I suppose any pointing device. Trackballs might be better than mice, but none of them will probably match trackpad in terms of portability.
  • Reply 47 of 66
    KennybobennyKennybobenny Posts: 1unconfirmed, member
    I’ve got Logitech mouse to work but not my trackpad as mentioned already (trackpad). I was able to highlight text. Cut and paste.
    GeorgeBMacmelgrosswatto_cobra
  • Reply 48 of 66
    kevin keekevin kee Posts: 1,289member
    I get why Apple didn’t mention this on site but at the same time a lot of people aren’t going to know about so they’re still going to knock the iPad as not being a proper computer. If Apple thinks most support on the iPad is OK why not just say so?
    I guess because it's not the default on how iPad is operated. Unlike Surface or Mac, all of the equivalent Apps for iPad has been designed specifically for fingers.
    edited June 2019 fastasleep
  • Reply 49 of 66
    kevin keekevin kee Posts: 1,289member
    xixo said:
    Saying that an iThing can be a full replacement for a Mac is like saying a transvestite can be a full replacement for a woman.

    It can, but it's an ersatz version of the original.

    Make no mistake, adding mouse support is a capitulation. Hiding control inside accessibility settings only perpetuates the minification of the iOS UI.

    Like a supermodel who's had a few too many liposuctions, the end result isn't pretty. 
    I agree.
    I think that instead of being a full replacement for a MacBook, an iPad with keyboard and mouse will provide an alternative to MacBooks that will meet the needs of "Some of the people all of the time.  Or, all of the people some of the time".
    It's a supplement, not a replacement nor an alternative. I would hate to use mouse for the easy way a finger can do to move, scroll, rotate, zoom, pinch, press, etc. If mouse is a 2D gesture, your finger and touch screen is a 3D gestures, definitely one I won't trade in.
    fastasleepwatto_cobra
  • Reply 50 of 66
    fastasleepfastasleep Posts: 6,408member
    macgui said:
    I think you're overestimating how many people will use this beyond its target audience (people with disabilities, primarily).  You're simulating a single finger in a multi-touch environment, for one. It may be useful in certain niche use cases, but as a general rule most people won't even know it's there.
    I think you're underestimating how many people will use this beyond its target audience. If people regularly use a keyboard with the iPad, they're ripe for using a mouse. Not all of them, but it'll catch on.

    You don't have to be disabled or impaired to have trouble getting text highlighted or placing the cursor where you want it, quickly. It can be especially annoying if the iPad is in a case that has a thick border around the perimeter.  This feature wasn't on my list of I Really Want...  but I'll take it.
    Maybe, we'll see. I think I'd put my money on Apple improving text selection to the point that most people won't find a mouse worth the hassle. For finer design type work, obviously the Pencil is a preferable solution. I'm sure I'll see it, just not in any great numbers that's going to dictate iOS app design choices etc, at least in the near future. 
    watto_cobra
  • Reply 51 of 66
    fastasleepfastasleep Posts: 6,408member

    I get why Apple didn’t mention this on site but at the same time a lot of people aren’t going to know about so they’re still going to knock the iPad as not being a proper computer. If Apple thinks most support on the iPad is OK why not just say so?
    Because it's an accessibility feature and not a primary method of input.
    What is the practical difference between an "accessibility feature" and "primary method of input"? If it's turned on, it does become a co-primary method or even 100% primary method, no?
    The difference is that developers are not going to design their apps with mice in mind, nor will Apple reference it in their human interface guidelines, whereas finger and Pencil will continue to be as they are the official primary means of input. It's in Accessibility > Assistive Touch for a reason.
  • Reply 52 of 66
    fastasleepfastasleep Posts: 6,408member

    cgWerks said:
    Trackballs? 
    Heh, yeah, I suppose any pointing device. Trackballs might be better than mice, but none of them will probably match trackpad in terms of portability.
    Good lord. I have a colleague who works with a trackball exclusively and boy howdy if that's not the slowest way to operate a Mac I've ever seen. When I go to help him with some issue it's like having my hands tied behind my back.
    watto_cobra
  • Reply 53 of 66
    k2kwk2kw Posts: 2,075member
    mac_128 said:
    Some people really can't get over Apple ruining their talking points, defending Apple's resistance to adding a mouse all these years.

    The bottom line is Apple is being totally hypocritical with the iPad by Marketing it with an attached keyboard, but not including a mouse, after stating that they would not bring a touchscreen to the MacBook because it would be awkward to lift one's hands from the keyboard to touch the screen -- exactly the same thing required by an iPad while using a keyboard.

    And for that exact reason, they are adding mouse support. It doesn't matter if it's under accessibility -- that merely allows Apple to save face by insisting that it's there just for the disabled, knowing full well it's likely to serve the very people who would otherwise be using a MacBook, or buy into Apple's marketing that the iPad appears to serve as a MacBook replacement, merely by adding a keyboard.
    I think that Apple marketing will say they were consistent in saying that “NO” they did not add mouse support to iOS.   They added it to iPadOS.

    Either way it was obvious that this was coming when Marzipan was revealed last year.   I expect that in a year or two mouse support will be equal to pencil support in iPadOS as new apps are developed that are designed to run on both mac and iPad through UiKit (or is is webkit).

    With Apple allowing. You to use an iPad as a second screen Apple for a Mac Apple will be delivering their Toaster/Refrigrator and every one will love chilled toast. It may just take a few more years to get there.   Can’t wait for them to get there.   I expect they will someday announce the Smart MacBook some day.   Their version.of the Surface Book.  But it will be a much better device.

    For all you vile attackers against this.  HAHA HAHA.
    mac_128GeorgeBMaccgWerks
  • Reply 54 of 66
    melgrossmelgross Posts: 33,510member
    melgross said:

    I've been saying that this was inevitable for over a year now and getting beat up for it.
    It's not a "toaster / refrigerator" as many claimed.   It is "One Ring to Rule Them All!"

    With this and desktop level Safari, the iPad just became a man.

    I'm glad that it's finally here!   Although it sounds like Apple may need to fine tune it or finish it off.  I think this will be particularly attractive to students who won't have to buy and lug around two devices.

    (I suspect this will kill off the MacBook but the MacBook Air and MacBook Pros will continue on as strong as ever.   While there is overlap in the functionality, the two form factors and OS's will continue to have different (but complimentary) strengths and weaknesses)
    I think you're overestimating how many people will use this beyond its target audience (people with disabilities, primarily).  You're simulating a single finger in a multi-touch environment, for one. It may be useful in certain niche use cases, but as a general rule most people won't even know it's there.

    "I think this will be particularly attractive to students who won't have to buy and lug around two devices." — I seriously doubt that. 
    Niche use?
    No, it will be useful for most business users and others such as students who work with word processors and spreadsheets -- and make the iPad far more functionally adequate for those tasks -- rather than just squeaking by...

    I suspect you are thinking of traditional iPhone/iPad touch based apps like games.

    The truth is:  A finger works very well for many things.  But for fine work a finger is just too clumsy and you need a cursor -- at least to be efficient.  So, the iPad has both and the user will be able to decide based on what their needs of the moment are...

    As for students not being interested in a single device that meets all their needs:  You might be right for those students who can afford an extras grand or two in order to buy a Mac for heavy word processing.   But, most students I know could easily find better use for that money -- as well as space in their backpack.
    If you say so. You're going to be disappointed with your cursor for "fine work" then:


    EDIT: closer look at that video shows a "Cursor" setting, so curious to see what options are there.

    I meant that most students will never know this accessibility feature exists, much less enable it and start using mice with their iPads. SOME may, but it's not going to be common by any means.

    And, no, I'm not talking about games. Give me a break.
    Why wouldn’t most students know about it? Sure they will. If this makes it into the final release, everyone will know about it. This is what’s known as “a big thing”. It will be written about everywhere. Third parties will have keyboards with trackpads built in (since Smith says that they work).  Companies will advertise that their mice work with the iPad and iOS 13.
    You're crazy if you think most typical iOS users know about random accessibility options. I also think most younger users aren't as dependent on mice as a few people here seem to think they are. I guess we'll see, won't we?
    You missed what I said, even though I was pretty clear. I said that because this is a “big thing”, it will be written about everywhere, as it’s already been. In just two days, I’ve seen almost a dozen articles about mouse support in iOS. Most of these in popular venues, not just tech sites. It it arrives intact when 13 is released, there will be more written about it.

    right now, it seems to not be quite as versatile as we have been hoping, so possibly the fever will die down somewhat. But otherwise, this will be publicized all over. You would have to live under a rock to not know about it. This isn’t something that just those who are impaired in some fashion want, it’s almost everyone, minus a few fanatics who think that anything other than touch is anathema.
    cgWerks
  • Reply 55 of 66
    melgrossmelgross Posts: 33,510member

    MplsP said:
    Interesting - not sure if this is a good or bad thing. Part of the reason the iPhone and then the iPad did well was because iOS was designed as a touchscreen interface OS, unlike previous adaptations of Windows. That’s both a benefit and a detriment for an iPad. The interface is simple to use, but for fine manipulations it gets cumbersome. A finger works well but it is not a precision pointing device. The pencil gives increase precision, but costs an additional $100+. Now that a mouse or trackpad can be used will it fragment the software so you end up with some that ‘requires’ a mouse to use it effectively? 
    Doesn’t look like a trackpad is supported and mouse support doesn’t include text selection.
    FTFA: "Troughton-Smith also confirmed that the same feature is available when you use an Apple Magic Trackpad paired to your iPad running iPadOS."

    What do you mean doesn't include text selection? It's an AssistiveTouch feature, so it simulates anything a finger can do in iOS.
    I’m just going by what I read. And looking at the big-ass round pointer  it sure doesn’t look like text selection would be easy to do. I think the jury is still out on text selection and new cut/copy/paste gestures.
    There’s an open dot in the middle. It looks strange to us,  but I’d bet that if used, we would get used to it quickly.
  • Reply 56 of 66
    melgrossmelgross Posts: 33,510member
    One thing we’re not considering is whether there are APIs that would allow a developer to enable more standard mouse support now that Apple has the major work out of the way. Those APIs may not be specifically for mice, they could be for controllers. But we’ve seen clever developers adapt one thing for something else successfully.
  • Reply 57 of 66
    melgrossmelgross Posts: 33,510member
    xixo said:
    Saying that an iThing can be a full replacement for a Mac is like saying a transvestite can be a full replacement for a woman.

    It can, but it's an ersatz version of the original.

    Make no mistake, adding mouse support is a capitulation. Hiding control inside accessibility settings only perpetuates the minification of the iOS UI.

    Like a supermodel who's had a few too many liposuctions, the end result isn't pretty. 
    We don’t need the demeaning comparisons. 
  • Reply 58 of 66
    melgrossmelgross Posts: 33,510member

    I get why Apple didn’t mention this on site but at the same time a lot of people aren’t going to know about so they’re still going to knock the iPad as not being a proper computer. If Apple thinks most support on the iPad is OK why not just say so?
    Because it's an accessibility feature and not a primary method of input.
    What is the practical difference between an "accessibility feature" and "primary method of input"? If it's turned on, it does become a co-primary method or even 100% primary method, no?
    Yes indeed! It something I think Apple is afraid might happen.
  • Reply 59 of 66
    melgrossmelgross Posts: 33,510member
    xixo said:
    Saying that an iThing can be a full replacement for a Mac is like saying a transvestite can be a full replacement for a woman.

    It can, but it's an ersatz version of the original.

    Make no mistake, adding mouse support is a capitulation. Hiding control inside accessibility settings only perpetuates the minification of the iOS UI.

    Like a supermodel who's had a few too many liposuctions, the end result isn't pretty. 
    I agree.
    I think that instead of being a full replacement for a MacBook, an iPad with keyboard and mouse will provide an alternative to MacBooks that will meet the needs of "Some of the people all of the time.  Or, all of the people some of the time".
     I agree. It’s like Files. Some people have been afraid that it would compIicate the way an iPad HAS to be used. But the way Apple has done it, you can just ignore the folder as though it’s not there. That, to me, is an ideal solution for both sides.

    so making mouse support something that needs to be turned on for those who want it, but left off for those who don’t, also seems to be a good solution. I like the way later Chromebooks do it. Plug the keyboard in, and mouse/cursor support automatically appears. Remove it, and so does the support.
    GeorgeBMaccgWerkswatto_cobra
  • Reply 60 of 66
    fastasleepfastasleep Posts: 6,408member
    k2kw said:
    mac_128 said:
    Some people really can't get over Apple ruining their talking points, defending Apple's resistance to adding a mouse all these years.

    The bottom line is Apple is being totally hypocritical with the iPad by Marketing it with an attached keyboard, but not including a mouse, after stating that they would not bring a touchscreen to the MacBook because it would be awkward to lift one's hands from the keyboard to touch the screen -- exactly the same thing required by an iPad while using a keyboard.

    And for that exact reason, they are adding mouse support. It doesn't matter if it's under accessibility -- that merely allows Apple to save face by insisting that it's there just for the disabled, knowing full well it's likely to serve the very people who would otherwise be using a MacBook, or buy into Apple's marketing that the iPad appears to serve as a MacBook replacement, merely by adding a keyboard.
    I think that Apple marketing will say they were consistent in saying that “NO” they did not add mouse support to iOS.   They added it to iPadOS.

    Either way it was obvious that this was coming when Marzipan was revealed last year.   I expect that in a year or two mouse support will be equal to pencil support in iPadOS as new apps are developed that are designed to run on both mac and iPad through UiKit (or is is webkit).

    With Apple allowing. You to use an iPad as a second screen Apple for a Mac Apple will be delivering their Toaster/Refrigrator and every one will love chilled toast. It may just take a few more years to get there.   Can’t wait for them to get there.   I expect they will someday announce the Smart MacBook some day.   Their version.of the Surface Book.  But it will be a much better device.

    For all you vile attackers against this.  HAHA HAHA.
    It's available on iPhone too, not just iPad.
    watto_cobra
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