iPhone loyalty rates down to 8-year low, survey claims

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Comments

  • Reply 41 of 91
    GeorgeBMacGeorgeBMac Posts: 11,421member
    urahara said:
    Soli said:
    There's really nothing surprising about this. The plateauing of smartphones design is upon us and with vendors following Apple's lead (which may or may not be from stolen IP) there are more than enough similarities. People that care about protecting their data probably won't jump to Android-based devices and those that are fine with built-in crapware (at best) and spyware (at worse) will likely never see a reason to use an iPhone. To each their own.
    1)  Rather than "stolen ip" it is more probably just a case of a maturing market -- just as happened with PCs a couple decades ago.  Samsung hardware (or that from Huawei or most any other vendor) is a close enough match to Apple's that most people won't notice enough of a difference to pay a premium price simply to get an Apple on the back cover.

    Which leads directly to your second point:
    2)  "People that care about protecting their data....".   Yes, it is the Apple ecosystem that will set Apple apart from the Samsungs, Huawei's and others...   Data privacy is part of that (a big part), but not the entire part.  It also includes the Apple reputation for quality, its willingness and ability to service its products (even if that is simply answering a 'how to' question at the Apple store), its inhouse apps like Numbers and Maps, its great, user friendly OS, its integration with other Apple products such as the watch, and background things such as iCloud backup that prevent those disasters that should never happen but do...

    The Mac line is a good example for the iPhone line:
    A Mac, any Mac, without MacOS is simply a very expensive Windows machine that any manufacturer can match or better whenever they choose.   Macs excel not from their hardware (which is always very good but still mostly just off the shelf stuff anybody can buy and assemble) but from their OS and Apple's ecosystem.   And, iPhones are entering that same mature product arena.

    So, I agree with the implication of what you say:   Apple needs to shift from emphasizing and relying on its hardware and emphasize the other things that set their products like the iPhone apart.

    Which device matches MacBook Pro 15'' (2018)?
    From a strictly hardware perspective?  Quite a few. 
  • Reply 42 of 91
    avon b7avon b7 Posts: 6,515member
    elijahg said:
    jdw said:
    The continued presence of the "notch" coupled with what consumers perceive as the biggest bang for the buck is no doubt driving this.
    The notch doesn't concern me personally, but the price does. I'll always (within reason) be loyal to Apple, but more and more people are looking at Apple's £1000 phones and thinking "nah, you know what, I'm going to switch to Android," where they get 75% of the features for 25% of the price. Some of the Chinese Android phones really are surprisingly good, even at the £250 price bracket. My friend's £250 Xiaomi has incredible low-light camera performance. Makes the Xs look like something from 5 years ago.

    Current iPhone toting friends are either holding off on a 5s sized device, or as I am, cheaper phones. The flagship 6s was £650 which was pretty good bang for your buck. It was way better than any other phone then. The flagship Xs is now £1000, but hardware wise is it really that much better than the competition? Is it really that much better than the 6s? Software is of course much better than Android, but that was already factored into the £650 iPhone's cost. The Xs is certainly not £350 better than my 6s was at the time.
    If you consider Face ID and the Neural Engine yes, it is. Competitors have already given up face identification on behalf of “almost notchless” phones. Face ID is the only successful tech in that domain. Is it luxurious or burlesque? Absolutely not because you get it as cheap as $750, even cheaper with trade in on the XR. Don’t underestimate that Face ID assembly, it may open a whole growth domain to the iPhone such as health: face analysis, iris analysis, and even more (imagine a Siri that can detect makeup errors or suggest hair style :D ). It is not a fancy Animoji tool. The Watch acquired a whole health and fitness domain thanks to its heart rate sensors.

    Apple’s another superiority is its use of the same CPU across all models of the same generation. Competitors offer differing CPUs by country even in the same model, those may differ even by store or by batch, there is no guarantee. So you get an A12 iPhone for as low as $750 and even cheaper with trade in. I am very glad I could buy an A11 iPhone 8+ substantially cheaper than iPhone X.
    Android hasn't given up on face identification. It was used long before FaceID, (which is simply one - expensive - form of face identification and using 3D depth sensing) and is still widely used as a convenience biometric. It is a shame that Apple doesn't offer the same convenience options for iPhones without 3D depth sensing.

    Also, FaceID is not the only successful use of the tech. An example of using 3D depth sensing, 3D object scanning/modelling, skeletal mapping and VR:



    That video was taken almost a year ago. Baby steps but, AFAIK, Apple didn't provide anything similar when they could have done. Rumours point to the tech moving forward with the Mate 30 Pro.

    It is true that, in general, Android phones are trying to reduce notches to their minimum expression and passing on expensive biometrics where other solutions provide more than sufficient security for payments etc. I think the goal was to maximise screen to body ratios and that is what we are seeing.
  • Reply 42 of 91
    maestro64maestro64 Posts: 5,039member
    I could be completely wrong with this view, but I think what we are seeing in the data is the fact kids are finally coming off the Parent's payroll as such they do not have the money to buy new Iphones so they get what ever is the cheapest.
    AppleExposedAI_lias
  • Reply 44 of 91
    GeorgeBMacGeorgeBMac Posts: 11,421member
    bigtds said:
     I think my 12 year old grandson may serve as a good example of what's going on:

    He does not know a single kid (not one!) who doesn't have and use Apple products:   iPhones, iPads, iPods, Apple Watches, etc....   while many of their parents do use other (Samsung) products.   But the kids wouldn't be caught dead carrying a Samsung phone.

    Part of that is the prestige factor of Apple.   But most of it is the social networking that Apple enables with FaceTime and iMessage which the kids rely heavily on to communicate with each other.  Without an iPhone, iPad or iPod they are outcasts from their social network.
    The problem is, parents are teaching kids to be followers and not leaders. To treat others as outcasts because they are different or because they don't conform to standards you define is really dumb and has become a big problem in this country. These kids will grow up to be intolerant lemmings who's lives are defined by the idiot slabs they use to communicate with other idiots. Not something I would be proud of.
    Sorry, but these days, neighborhoods where kids went over and asked if "Johnny can come out and play" are long gone.

    So, kids today use technology to communicate with each other.   It has nothing to do with what parents teach or don't teach.   The kid without access to the necessary technology is out of the loop and left behind.

    Life is cruel.  Deal with t.
    AppleExposed
  • Reply 45 of 91
    maestro64maestro64 Posts: 5,039member
    Thanks to Gatorguy providing the link to the data, 

    I think my original point is valid, it is kid coming off the Parent payroll as the reason individual are choosing to move away from iPhone

    The survey group was - online audience 62.4% millennials / 37.6% were 36-65

    As a group we know Millennial make less then than their contemporaries at the same age and adjusted for inflation. They also do not save as much and so on. As long as Mom and Dad were paying the bill for the new cell phone or data plan they were happy. Now that they need to pay they are thinking twice about how much they spend on a phone. This could be bad news for Apple. 
    gatorguy
  • Reply 46 of 91
    bigtdsbigtds Posts: 167member
    bigtds said:
     I think my 12 year old grandson may serve as a good example of what's going on:

    He does not know a single kid (not one!) who doesn't have and use Apple products:   iPhones, iPads, iPods, Apple Watches, etc....   while many of their parents do use other (Samsung) products.   But the kids wouldn't be caught dead carrying a Samsung phone.

    Part of that is the prestige factor of Apple.   But most of it is the social networking that Apple enables with FaceTime and iMessage which the kids rely heavily on to communicate with each other.  Without an iPhone, iPad or iPod they are outcasts from their social network.
    The problem is, parents are teaching kids to be followers and not leaders. To treat others as outcasts because they are different or because they don't conform to standards you define is really dumb and has become a big problem in this country. These kids will grow up to be intolerant lemmings who's lives are defined by the idiot slabs they use to communicate with other idiots. Not something I would be proud of.
    Sorry, but these days, neighborhoods where kids went over and asked if "Johnny can come out and play" are long gone.

    So, kids today use technology to communicate with each other.   It has nothing to do with what parents teach or don't teach.   The kid without access to the necessary technology is out of the loop and left behind.

    Life is cruel.  Deal with t.
    You're right...life is cruel. But if you're OK with your kid being a little elitist a-hole, then you're part of the problem.
    muthuk_vanalingam
  • Reply 47 of 91
    macplusplusmacplusplus Posts: 2,111member
    avon b7 said:
    elijahg said:
    jdw said:
    The continued presence of the "notch" coupled with what consumers perceive as the biggest bang for the buck is no doubt driving this.
    The notch doesn't concern me personally, but the price does. I'll always (within reason) be loyal to Apple, but more and more people are looking at Apple's £1000 phones and thinking "nah, you know what, I'm going to switch to Android," where they get 75% of the features for 25% of the price. Some of the Chinese Android phones really are surprisingly good, even at the £250 price bracket. My friend's £250 Xiaomi has incredible low-light camera performance. Makes the Xs look like something from 5 years ago.

    Current iPhone toting friends are either holding off on a 5s sized device, or as I am, cheaper phones. The flagship 6s was £650 which was pretty good bang for your buck. It was way better than any other phone then. The flagship Xs is now £1000, but hardware wise is it really that much better than the competition? Is it really that much better than the 6s? Software is of course much better than Android, but that was already factored into the £650 iPhone's cost. The Xs is certainly not £350 better than my 6s was at the time.
    If you consider Face ID and the Neural Engine yes, it is. Competitors have already given up face identification on behalf of “almost notchless” phones. Face ID is the only successful tech in that domain. Is it luxurious or burlesque? Absolutely not because you get it as cheap as $750, even cheaper with trade in on the XR. Don’t underestimate that Face ID assembly, it may open a whole growth domain to the iPhone such as health: face analysis, iris analysis, and even more (imagine a Siri that can detect makeup errors or suggest hair style :D ). It is not a fancy Animoji tool. The Watch acquired a whole health and fitness domain thanks to its heart rate sensors.

    Apple’s another superiority is its use of the same CPU across all models of the same generation. Competitors offer differing CPUs by country even in the same model, those may differ even by store or by batch, there is no guarantee. So you get an A12 iPhone for as low as $750 and even cheaper with trade in. I am very glad I could buy an A11 iPhone 8+ substantially cheaper than iPhone X.
    Android hasn't given up on face identification. It was used long before FaceID, (which is simply one - expensive - form of face identification and using 3D depth sensing) and is still widely used as a convenience biometric. It is a shame that Apple doesn't offer the same convenience options for iPhones without 3D depth sensing.

    Also, FaceID is not the only successful use of the tech. An example of using 3D depth sensing, 3D object scanning/modelling, skeletal mapping and VR:



    That video was taken almost a year ago. Baby steps but, AFAIK, Apple didn't provide anything similar when they could have done. Rumours point to the tech moving forward with the Mate 30 Pro.

    It is true that, in general, Android phones are trying to reduce notches to their minimum expression and passing on expensive biometrics where other solutions provide more than sufficient security for payments etc. I think the goal was to maximise screen to body ratios and that is what we are seeing.
    We don’t deal with vaporware. If those become a true product and in Apple’s scale come back again !
  • Reply 48 of 91
    avon b7avon b7 Posts: 6,515member
    avon b7 said:
    elijahg said:
    jdw said:
    The continued presence of the "notch" coupled with what consumers perceive as the biggest bang for the buck is no doubt driving this.
    The notch doesn't concern me personally, but the price does. I'll always (within reason) be loyal to Apple, but more and more people are looking at Apple's £1000 phones and thinking "nah, you know what, I'm going to switch to Android," where they get 75% of the features for 25% of the price. Some of the Chinese Android phones really are surprisingly good, even at the £250 price bracket. My friend's £250 Xiaomi has incredible low-light camera performance. Makes the Xs look like something from 5 years ago.

    Current iPhone toting friends are either holding off on a 5s sized device, or as I am, cheaper phones. The flagship 6s was £650 which was pretty good bang for your buck. It was way better than any other phone then. The flagship Xs is now £1000, but hardware wise is it really that much better than the competition? Is it really that much better than the 6s? Software is of course much better than Android, but that was already factored into the £650 iPhone's cost. The Xs is certainly not £350 better than my 6s was at the time.
    If you consider Face ID and the Neural Engine yes, it is. Competitors have already given up face identification on behalf of “almost notchless” phones. Face ID is the only successful tech in that domain. Is it luxurious or burlesque? Absolutely not because you get it as cheap as $750, even cheaper with trade in on the XR. Don’t underestimate that Face ID assembly, it may open a whole growth domain to the iPhone such as health: face analysis, iris analysis, and even more (imagine a Siri that can detect makeup errors or suggest hair style :D ). It is not a fancy Animoji tool. The Watch acquired a whole health and fitness domain thanks to its heart rate sensors.

    Apple’s another superiority is its use of the same CPU across all models of the same generation. Competitors offer differing CPUs by country even in the same model, those may differ even by store or by batch, there is no guarantee. So you get an A12 iPhone for as low as $750 and even cheaper with trade in. I am very glad I could buy an A11 iPhone 8+ substantially cheaper than iPhone X.
    Android hasn't given up on face identification. It was used long before FaceID, (which is simply one - expensive - form of face identification and using 3D depth sensing) and is still widely used as a convenience biometric. It is a shame that Apple doesn't offer the same convenience options for iPhones without 3D depth sensing.

    Also, FaceID is not the only successful use of the tech. An example of using 3D depth sensing, 3D object scanning/modelling, skeletal mapping and VR:



    That video was taken almost a year ago. Baby steps but, AFAIK, Apple didn't provide anything similar when they could have done. Rumours point to the tech moving forward with the Mate 30 Pro.

    It is true that, in general, Android phones are trying to reduce notches to their minimum expression and passing on expensive biometrics where other solutions provide more than sufficient security for payments etc. I think the goal was to maximise screen to body ratios and that is what we are seeing.
    We don’t deal with vaporware. If those become a true product and in Apple’s scale come back again !
    It is a real product. The video was taken at the official presentation for the Mate 20 Pro last year. I didn't link to the full official presentation as it almost two hours long. That's why it's just someone filming from the audience.
    Carnage
  • Reply 49 of 91
    AppleExposedAppleExposed Posts: 1,805unconfirmed, member
    Soli said:
    There's really nothing surprising about this. The plateauing of smartphones design is upon us and with vendors following Apple's lead (which may or may not be from stolen IP) there are more than enough similarities. People that care about protecting their data probably won't jump to Android-based devices and those that are fine with built-in crapware (at best) and spyware (at worse) will likely never see a reason to use an iPhone. To each their own.
    1)  Rather than "stolen ip" it is more probably just a case of a maturing market -- just as happened with PCs a couple decades ago.  Samsung hardware (or that from Huawei or most any other vendor) is a close enough match to Apple's that most people won't notice enough of a difference to pay a premium price simply to get an Apple on the back cover.

    The fact the knockoffs now perform and act like iPhones are exactly why it's stolen IP.

    avon b7 said:
    urahara said:
    Soli said:
    There's really nothing surprising about this. The plateauing of smartphones design is upon us and with vendors following Apple's lead (which may or may not be from stolen IP) there are more than enough similarities. People that care about protecting their data probably won't jump to Android-based devices and those that are fine with built-in crapware (at best) and spyware (at worse) will likely never see a reason to use an iPhone. To each their own.
    1)  Rather than "stolen ip" it is more probably just a case of a maturing market -- just as happened with PCs a couple decades ago.  Samsung hardware (or that from Huawei or most any other vendor) is a close enough match to Apple's that most people won't notice enough of a difference to pay a premium price simply to get an Apple on the back cover.

    Which leads directly to your second point:
    2)  "People that care about protecting their data....".   Yes, it is the Apple ecosystem that will set Apple apart from the Samsungs, Huawei's and others...   Data privacy is part of that (a big part), but not the entire part.  It also includes the Apple reputation for quality, its willingness and ability to service its products (even if that is simply answering a 'how to' question at the Apple store), its inhouse apps like Numbers and Maps, its great, user friendly OS, its integration with other Apple products such as the watch, and background things such as iCloud backup that prevent those disasters that should never happen but do...

    The Mac line is a good example for the iPhone line:
    A Mac, any Mac, without MacOS is simply a very expensive Windows machine that any manufacturer can match or better whenever they choose.   Macs excel not from their hardware (which is always very good but still mostly just off the shelf stuff anybody can buy and assemble) but from their OS and Apple's ecosystem.   And, iPhones are entering that same mature product arena.

    So, I agree with the implication of what you say:   Apple needs to shift from emphasizing and relying on its hardware and emphasize the other things that set their products like the iPhone apart.

    Which device matches MacBook Pro 15'' (2018)?
    Maybe this?

    https://www.techradar.com/reviews/huawei-matebook-x-pro

    A knockoff Macbook will perform worse on Windows. This is why knockoff Apple products brag about specs, it fools idiots into thinking bigger specs means better.

    bigtds said:
     I think my 12 year old grandson may serve as a good example of what's going on:

    He does not know a single kid (not one!) who doesn't have and use Apple products:   iPhones, iPads, iPods, Apple Watches, etc....   while many of their parents do use other (Samsung) products.   But the kids wouldn't be caught dead carrying a Samsung phone.

    Part of that is the prestige factor of Apple.   But most of it is the social networking that Apple enables with FaceTime and iMessage which the kids rely heavily on to communicate with each other.  Without an iPhone, iPad or iPod they are outcasts from their social network.
    The problem is, parents are teaching kids to be followers and not leaders. To treat others as outcasts because they are different or because they don't conform to standards you define is really dumb and has become a big problem in this country. These kids will grow up to be intolerant lemmings who's lives are defined by the idiot slabs they use to communicate with other idiots. Not something I would be proud of.

    Oh boo hoo. So buying a knockoff iPhone is being "independent"? What a joke.

    If your kid really wants to be an individual tell him to use a Blackberry.
    Soli
  • Reply 50 of 91
    macplusplusmacplusplus Posts: 2,111member
    avon b7 said:
    avon b7 said:
    elijahg said:
    jdw said:
    The continued presence of the "notch" coupled with what consumers perceive as the biggest bang for the buck is no doubt driving this.
    The notch doesn't concern me personally, but the price does. I'll always (within reason) be loyal to Apple, but more and more people are looking at Apple's £1000 phones and thinking "nah, you know what, I'm going to switch to Android," where they get 75% of the features for 25% of the price. Some of the Chinese Android phones really are surprisingly good, even at the £250 price bracket. My friend's £250 Xiaomi has incredible low-light camera performance. Makes the Xs look like something from 5 years ago.

    Current iPhone toting friends are either holding off on a 5s sized device, or as I am, cheaper phones. The flagship 6s was £650 which was pretty good bang for your buck. It was way better than any other phone then. The flagship Xs is now £1000, but hardware wise is it really that much better than the competition? Is it really that much better than the 6s? Software is of course much better than Android, but that was already factored into the £650 iPhone's cost. The Xs is certainly not £350 better than my 6s was at the time.
    If you consider Face ID and the Neural Engine yes, it is. Competitors have already given up face identification on behalf of “almost notchless” phones. Face ID is the only successful tech in that domain. Is it luxurious or burlesque? Absolutely not because you get it as cheap as $750, even cheaper with trade in on the XR. Don’t underestimate that Face ID assembly, it may open a whole growth domain to the iPhone such as health: face analysis, iris analysis, and even more (imagine a Siri that can detect makeup errors or suggest hair style :D ). It is not a fancy Animoji tool. The Watch acquired a whole health and fitness domain thanks to its heart rate sensors.

    Apple’s another superiority is its use of the same CPU across all models of the same generation. Competitors offer differing CPUs by country even in the same model, those may differ even by store or by batch, there is no guarantee. So you get an A12 iPhone for as low as $750 and even cheaper with trade in. I am very glad I could buy an A11 iPhone 8+ substantially cheaper than iPhone X.
    Android hasn't given up on face identification. It was used long before FaceID, (which is simply one - expensive - form of face identification and using 3D depth sensing) and is still widely used as a convenience biometric. It is a shame that Apple doesn't offer the same convenience options for iPhones without 3D depth sensing.

    Also, FaceID is not the only successful use of the tech. An example of using 3D depth sensing, 3D object scanning/modelling, skeletal mapping and VR:



    That video was taken almost a year ago. Baby steps but, AFAIK, Apple didn't provide anything similar when they could have done. Rumours point to the tech moving forward with the Mate 30 Pro.

    It is true that, in general, Android phones are trying to reduce notches to their minimum expression and passing on expensive biometrics where other solutions provide more than sufficient security for payments etc. I think the goal was to maximise screen to body ratios and that is what we are seeing.
    We don’t deal with vaporware. If those become a true product and in Apple’s scale come back again !
    It is a real product. The video was taken at the official presentation for the Mate 20 Pro last year. I didn't link to the full official presentation as it almost two hours long. That's why it's just someone filming from the audience.
    What you don’t understand is in today’s tech world, selling companies is more  important than selling products. This is why vaporware exist. Blow a balloon with apparently novel but most probably tried tested and already failed brilliant idea, upload a few videos to YouTube, buy a few expo booths, and you don’t have to deliver anything more. There are shitloads of click-thirsty tech writers and TV reporters that would jump onto that and automatically inflate you startup company’s value to some satisfactory level. Then you sell the company and become vapor yourself grabbing all those angel investors’ money. Even Apple couldn’t save itself from such a scam, remember their sapphire adventure.

    This is no longer your 1970s capitalism...
    edited July 2019 AppleExposed
  • Reply 51 of 91
    AppleExposedAppleExposed Posts: 1,805unconfirmed, member
    Who is BankMyCell and are the reputable?

    It was an anti-Apple report. That's all you need to break into "reputable" status.

    Same way DXO Mark suddenly became reputable.
  • Reply 52 of 91
    avon b7avon b7 Posts: 6,515member
    avon b7 said:
    avon b7 said:
    elijahg said:
    jdw said:
    The continued presence of the "notch" coupled with what consumers perceive as the biggest bang for the buck is no doubt driving this.
    The notch doesn't concern me personally, but the price does. I'll always (within reason) be loyal to Apple, but more and more people are looking at Apple's £1000 phones and thinking "nah, you know what, I'm going to switch to Android," where they get 75% of the features for 25% of the price. Some of the Chinese Android phones really are surprisingly good, even at the £250 price bracket. My friend's £250 Xiaomi has incredible low-light camera performance. Makes the Xs look like something from 5 years ago.

    Current iPhone toting friends are either holding off on a 5s sized device, or as I am, cheaper phones. The flagship 6s was £650 which was pretty good bang for your buck. It was way better than any other phone then. The flagship Xs is now £1000, but hardware wise is it really that much better than the competition? Is it really that much better than the 6s? Software is of course much better than Android, but that was already factored into the £650 iPhone's cost. The Xs is certainly not £350 better than my 6s was at the time.
    If you consider Face ID and the Neural Engine yes, it is. Competitors have already given up face identification on behalf of “almost notchless” phones. Face ID is the only successful tech in that domain. Is it luxurious or burlesque? Absolutely not because you get it as cheap as $750, even cheaper with trade in on the XR. Don’t underestimate that Face ID assembly, it may open a whole growth domain to the iPhone such as health: face analysis, iris analysis, and even more (imagine a Siri that can detect makeup errors or suggest hair style :D ). It is not a fancy Animoji tool. The Watch acquired a whole health and fitness domain thanks to its heart rate sensors.

    Apple’s another superiority is its use of the same CPU across all models of the same generation. Competitors offer differing CPUs by country even in the same model, those may differ even by store or by batch, there is no guarantee. So you get an A12 iPhone for as low as $750 and even cheaper with trade in. I am very glad I could buy an A11 iPhone 8+ substantially cheaper than iPhone X.
    Android hasn't given up on face identification. It was used long before FaceID, (which is simply one - expensive - form of face identification and using 3D depth sensing) and is still widely used as a convenience biometric. It is a shame that Apple doesn't offer the same convenience options for iPhones without 3D depth sensing.

    Also, FaceID is not the only successful use of the tech. An example of using 3D depth sensing, 3D object scanning/modelling, skeletal mapping and VR:



    That video was taken almost a year ago. Baby steps but, AFAIK, Apple didn't provide anything similar when they could have done. Rumours point to the tech moving forward with the Mate 30 Pro.

    It is true that, in general, Android phones are trying to reduce notches to their minimum expression and passing on expensive biometrics where other solutions provide more than sufficient security for payments etc. I think the goal was to maximise screen to body ratios and that is what we are seeing.
    We don’t deal with vaporware. If those become a true product and in Apple’s scale come back again !
    It is a real product. The video was taken at the official presentation for the Mate 20 Pro last year. I didn't link to the full official presentation as it almost two hours long. That's why it's just someone filming from the audience.
    What you don’t understand is in today’s tech world, selling companies is more  important than selling products. This is why vaporware exist. Blow a balloon with apparently novel but most probably tried tested and already failed brilliant idea, upload a few videos to YouTube, buy a few expo booths, and you don’t have to deliver anything more. There are shitloads of click-thirsty tech writers and TV reporters that would jump onto that and automatically inflate you startup company’s value to some satisfactory level. Then you sell the company and become vapor yourself grabbing all those angel investors’ money. Even Apple couldn’t save itself from such a scam, remember their sapphire adventure.

    This is no longer your 1970s capitalism...
    You are not addressing the points I made:

    Face identification is widely used on Android even without 3D depth sensing.

    FaceID is simply a biometric and easily substituted for other biometrics if you want to maximise screen to body ratio.

    FaceID is not the only successful use of 3D depth sensing.

    You veered off into a rant on other points.
    muthuk_vanalingam
  • Reply 53 of 91
    GeorgeBMacGeorgeBMac Posts: 11,421member
    bigtds said:
    bigtds said:
     I think my 12 year old grandson may serve as a good example of what's going on:

    He does not know a single kid (not one!) who doesn't have and use Apple products:   iPhones, iPads, iPods, Apple Watches, etc....   while many of their parents do use other (Samsung) products.   But the kids wouldn't be caught dead carrying a Samsung phone.

    Part of that is the prestige factor of Apple.   But most of it is the social networking that Apple enables with FaceTime and iMessage which the kids rely heavily on to communicate with each other.  Without an iPhone, iPad or iPod they are outcasts from their social network.
    The problem is, parents are teaching kids to be followers and not leaders. To treat others as outcasts because they are different or because they don't conform to standards you define is really dumb and has become a big problem in this country. These kids will grow up to be intolerant lemmings who's lives are defined by the idiot slabs they use to communicate with other idiots. Not something I would be proud of.
    Sorry, but these days, neighborhoods where kids went over and asked if "Johnny can come out and play" are long gone.

    So, kids today use technology to communicate with each other.   It has nothing to do with what parents teach or don't teach.   The kid without access to the necessary technology is out of the loop and left behind.

    Life is cruel.  Deal with t.
    You're right...life is cruel. But if you're OK with your kid being a little elitist a-hole, then you're part of the problem.
    LOL.... You apparently either didn't read what I wrote or it right over your head.   I said:   "He doesn't know a single kid, not one, who isn't using an iPhone or equivalent".
    That doesn't make him elitist.  It makes him normal.
  • Reply 54 of 91
    GeorgeBMacGeorgeBMac Posts: 11,421member
    Soli said:
    There's really nothing surprising about this. The plateauing of smartphones design is upon us and with vendors following Apple's lead (which may or may not be from stolen IP) there are more than enough similarities. People that care about protecting their data probably won't jump to Android-based devices and those that are fine with built-in crapware (at best) and spyware (at worse) will likely never see a reason to use an iPhone. To each their own.
    1)  Rather than "stolen ip" it is more probably just a case of a maturing market -- just as happened with PCs a couple decades ago.  Samsung hardware (or that from Huawei or most any other vendor) is a close enough match to Apple's that most people won't notice enough of a difference to pay a premium price simply to get an Apple on the back cover.

    The fact the knockoffs now perform and act like iPhones are exactly why it's stolen IP.


    So the fact that it rains in China means that they stole our weather?
    That battle was fought 10 years ago -- or 20 years ago if you include MacOS.
    AppleExposedelijahgmuthuk_vanalingam
  • Reply 55 of 91
    macplusplusmacplusplus Posts: 2,111member
    avon b7 said:
    avon b7 said:
    avon b7 said:
    elijahg said:
    jdw said:
    The continued presence of the "notch" coupled with what consumers perceive as the biggest bang for the buck is no doubt driving this.
    The notch doesn't concern me personally, but the price does. I'll always (within reason) be loyal to Apple, but more and more people are looking at Apple's £1000 phones and thinking "nah, you know what, I'm going to switch to Android," where they get 75% of the features for 25% of the price. Some of the Chinese Android phones really are surprisingly good, even at the £250 price bracket. My friend's £250 Xiaomi has incredible low-light camera performance. Makes the Xs look like something from 5 years ago.

    Current iPhone toting friends are either holding off on a 5s sized device, or as I am, cheaper phones. The flagship 6s was £650 which was pretty good bang for your buck. It was way better than any other phone then. The flagship Xs is now £1000, but hardware wise is it really that much better than the competition? Is it really that much better than the 6s? Software is of course much better than Android, but that was already factored into the £650 iPhone's cost. The Xs is certainly not £350 better than my 6s was at the time.
    If you consider Face ID and the Neural Engine yes, it is. Competitors have already given up face identification on behalf of “almost notchless” phones. Face ID is the only successful tech in that domain. Is it luxurious or burlesque? Absolutely not because you get it as cheap as $750, even cheaper with trade in on the XR. Don’t underestimate that Face ID assembly, it may open a whole growth domain to the iPhone such as health: face analysis, iris analysis, and even more (imagine a Siri that can detect makeup errors or suggest hair style :D ). It is not a fancy Animoji tool. The Watch acquired a whole health and fitness domain thanks to its heart rate sensors.

    Apple’s another superiority is its use of the same CPU across all models of the same generation. Competitors offer differing CPUs by country even in the same model, those may differ even by store or by batch, there is no guarantee. So you get an A12 iPhone for as low as $750 and even cheaper with trade in. I am very glad I could buy an A11 iPhone 8+ substantially cheaper than iPhone X.
    Android hasn't given up on face identification. It was used long before FaceID, (which is simply one - expensive - form of face identification and using 3D depth sensing) and is still widely used as a convenience biometric. It is a shame that Apple doesn't offer the same convenience options for iPhones without 3D depth sensing.

    Also, FaceID is not the only successful use of the tech. An example of using 3D depth sensing, 3D object scanning/modelling, skeletal mapping and VR:



    That video was taken almost a year ago. Baby steps but, AFAIK, Apple didn't provide anything similar when they could have done. Rumours point to the tech moving forward with the Mate 30 Pro.

    It is true that, in general, Android phones are trying to reduce notches to their minimum expression and passing on expensive biometrics where other solutions provide more than sufficient security for payments etc. I think the goal was to maximise screen to body ratios and that is what we are seeing.
    We don’t deal with vaporware. If those become a true product and in Apple’s scale come back again !
    It is a real product. The video was taken at the official presentation for the Mate 20 Pro last year. I didn't link to the full official presentation as it almost two hours long. That's why it's just someone filming from the audience.
    What you don’t understand is in today’s tech world, selling companies is more  important than selling products. This is why vaporware exist. Blow a balloon with apparently novel but most probably tried tested and already failed brilliant idea, upload a few videos to YouTube, buy a few expo booths, and you don’t have to deliver anything more. There are shitloads of click-thirsty tech writers and TV reporters that would jump onto that and automatically inflate you startup company’s value to some satisfactory level. Then you sell the company and become vapor yourself grabbing all those angel investors’ money. Even Apple couldn’t save itself from such a scam, remember their sapphire adventure.

    This is no longer your 1970s capitalism...
    You are not addressing the points I made:

    Face identification is widely used on Android even without 3D depth sensing.

    FaceID is simply a biometric and easily substituted for other biometrics if you want to maximise screen to body ratio.

    FaceID is not the only successful use of 3D depth sensing.

    You veered off into a rant on other points.
    Face recognition without 3D depth sensing can be easily fooled by a flat picture. You become boring sometimes.
    AppleExposed
  • Reply 56 of 91
    avon b7avon b7 Posts: 6,515member
    Soli said:
    There's really nothing surprising about this. The plateauing of smartphones design is upon us and with vendors following Apple's lead (which may or may not be from stolen IP) there are more than enough similarities. People that care about protecting their data probably won't jump to Android-based devices and those that are fine with built-in crapware (at best) and spyware (at worse) will likely never see a reason to use an iPhone. To each their own.
    1)  Rather than "stolen ip" it is more probably just a case of a maturing market -- just as happened with PCs a couple decades ago.  Samsung hardware (or that from Huawei or most any other vendor) is a close enough match to Apple's that most people won't notice enough of a difference to pay a premium price simply to get an Apple on the back cover.

    The fact the knockoffs now perform and act like iPhones are exactly why it's stolen IP.

    avon b7 said:
    urahara said:
    Soli said:
    There's really nothing surprising about this. The plateauing of smartphones design is upon us and with vendors following Apple's lead (which may or may not be from stolen IP) there are more than enough similarities. People that care about protecting their data probably won't jump to Android-based devices and those that are fine with built-in crapware (at best) and spyware (at worse) will likely never see a reason to use an iPhone. To each their own.
    1)  Rather than "stolen ip" it is more probably just a case of a maturing market -- just as happened with PCs a couple decades ago.  Samsung hardware (or that from Huawei or most any other vendor) is a close enough match to Apple's that most people won't notice enough of a difference to pay a premium price simply to get an Apple on the back cover.

    Which leads directly to your second point:
    2)  "People that care about protecting their data....".   Yes, it is the Apple ecosystem that will set Apple apart from the Samsungs, Huawei's and others...   Data privacy is part of that (a big part), but not the entire part.  It also includes the Apple reputation for quality, its willingness and ability to service its products (even if that is simply answering a 'how to' question at the Apple store), its inhouse apps like Numbers and Maps, its great, user friendly OS, its integration with other Apple products such as the watch, and background things such as iCloud backup that prevent those disasters that should never happen but do...

    The Mac line is a good example for the iPhone line:
    A Mac, any Mac, without MacOS is simply a very expensive Windows machine that any manufacturer can match or better whenever they choose.   Macs excel not from their hardware (which is always very good but still mostly just off the shelf stuff anybody can buy and assemble) but from their OS and Apple's ecosystem.   And, iPhones are entering that same mature product arena.

    So, I agree with the implication of what you say:   Apple needs to shift from emphasizing and relying on its hardware and emphasize the other things that set their products like the iPhone apart.

    Which device matches MacBook Pro 15'' (2018)?
    Maybe this?

    https://www.techradar.com/reviews/huawei-matebook-x-pro

    A knockoff Macbook will perform worse on Windows. This is why knockoff Apple products brag about specs, it fools idiots into thinking bigger specs means better.

    Did you read the review?

    Touchscreen.
    3:2 better than wide-screen for work
    Windows signature edition (no bloat)
    4mm bezels (14" screen in a 13" footprint)
    8 second fingerprint scanning cold boot
    Quad Atmos speaker setup
    Great keyboard (spillproof!)
    Etc.

    Also, have you seen Huawei One Hop in action? Shouldn't you be able to do the same with an iPhone? Would you like such a feature?



    Specs? Have you visited Apple's website?

    It's full of specs!


    edited July 2019 bigtds
  • Reply 57 of 91
    AppleExposedAppleExposed Posts: 1,805unconfirmed, member
    Soli said:
    There's really nothing surprising about this. The plateauing of smartphones design is upon us and with vendors following Apple's lead (which may or may not be from stolen IP) there are more than enough similarities. People that care about protecting their data probably won't jump to Android-based devices and those that are fine with built-in crapware (at best) and spyware (at worse) will likely never see a reason to use an iPhone. To each their own.
    1)  Rather than "stolen ip" it is more probably just a case of a maturing market -- just as happened with PCs a couple decades ago.  Samsung hardware (or that from Huawei or most any other vendor) is a close enough match to Apple's that most people won't notice enough of a difference to pay a premium price simply to get an Apple on the back cover.

    The fact the knockoffs now perform and act like iPhones are exactly why it's stolen IP.


    So the fact that it rains in China means that they stole our weather?
    That battle was fought 10 years ago -- or 20 years ago if you include MacOS.
    What a strange analogy to compare something organic to a tech IP.

    Just because it rained in China 10 years ago doesn't make rain disappear.
  • Reply 58 of 91
    AppleExposedAppleExposed Posts: 1,805unconfirmed, member
    avon b7 said:
    avon b7 said:
    avon b7 said:
    elijahg said:
    jdw said:
    The continued presence of the "notch" coupled with what consumers perceive as the biggest bang for the buck is no doubt driving this.
    The notch doesn't concern me personally, but the price does. I'll always (within reason) be loyal to Apple, but more and more people are looking at Apple's £1000 phones and thinking "nah, you know what, I'm going to switch to Android," where they get 75% of the features for 25% of the price. Some of the Chinese Android phones really are surprisingly good, even at the £250 price bracket. My friend's £250 Xiaomi has incredible low-light camera performance. Makes the Xs look like something from 5 years ago.

    Current iPhone toting friends are either holding off on a 5s sized device, or as I am, cheaper phones. The flagship 6s was £650 which was pretty good bang for your buck. It was way better than any other phone then. The flagship Xs is now £1000, but hardware wise is it really that much better than the competition? Is it really that much better than the 6s? Software is of course much better than Android, but that was already factored into the £650 iPhone's cost. The Xs is certainly not £350 better than my 6s was at the time.
    If you consider Face ID and the Neural Engine yes, it is. Competitors have already given up face identification on behalf of “almost notchless” phones. Face ID is the only successful tech in that domain. Is it luxurious or burlesque? Absolutely not because you get it as cheap as $750, even cheaper with trade in on the XR. Don’t underestimate that Face ID assembly, it may open a whole growth domain to the iPhone such as health: face analysis, iris analysis, and even more (imagine a Siri that can detect makeup errors or suggest hair style :D ). It is not a fancy Animoji tool. The Watch acquired a whole health and fitness domain thanks to its heart rate sensors.

    Apple’s another superiority is its use of the same CPU across all models of the same generation. Competitors offer differing CPUs by country even in the same model, those may differ even by store or by batch, there is no guarantee. So you get an A12 iPhone for as low as $750 and even cheaper with trade in. I am very glad I could buy an A11 iPhone 8+ substantially cheaper than iPhone X.
    Android hasn't given up on face identification. It was used long before FaceID, (which is simply one - expensive - form of face identification and using 3D depth sensing) and is still widely used as a convenience biometric. It is a shame that Apple doesn't offer the same convenience options for iPhones without 3D depth sensing.

    Also, FaceID is not the only successful use of the tech. An example of using 3D depth sensing, 3D object scanning/modelling, skeletal mapping and VR:



    That video was taken almost a year ago. Baby steps but, AFAIK, Apple didn't provide anything similar when they could have done. Rumours point to the tech moving forward with the Mate 30 Pro.

    It is true that, in general, Android phones are trying to reduce notches to their minimum expression and passing on expensive biometrics where other solutions provide more than sufficient security for payments etc. I think the goal was to maximise screen to body ratios and that is what we are seeing.
    We don’t deal with vaporware. If those become a true product and in Apple’s scale come back again !
    It is a real product. The video was taken at the official presentation for the Mate 20 Pro last year. I didn't link to the full official presentation as it almost two hours long. That's why it's just someone filming from the audience.
    What you don’t understand is in today’s tech world, selling companies is more  important than selling products. This is why vaporware exist. Blow a balloon with apparently novel but most probably tried tested and already failed brilliant idea, upload a few videos to YouTube, buy a few expo booths, and you don’t have to deliver anything more. There are shitloads of click-thirsty tech writers and TV reporters that would jump onto that and automatically inflate you startup company’s value to some satisfactory level. Then you sell the company and become vapor yourself grabbing all those angel investors’ money. Even Apple couldn’t save itself from such a scam, remember their sapphire adventure.

    This is no longer your 1970s capitalism...
    You are not addressing the points I made:

    Face identification is widely used on Android even without 3D depth sensing.

    FaceID is simply a biometric and easily substituted for other biometrics if you want to maximise screen to body ratio.

    FaceID is not the only successful use of 3D depth sensing.

    You veered off into a rant on other points.

    FaceID is the most secure biometric lock in history. Apples not gonna give that up for you.

    Also face sensing on the knockoffs is rushed garbage to tick a box in typical Android fashion.
  • Reply 59 of 91
    avon b7avon b7 Posts: 6,515member
    avon b7 said:
    avon b7 said:
    avon b7 said:
    elijahg said:
    jdw said:
    The continued presence of the "notch" coupled with what consumers perceive as the biggest bang for the buck is no doubt driving this.
    The notch doesn't concern me personally, but the price does. I'll always (within reason) be loyal to Apple, but more and more people are looking at Apple's £1000 phones and thinking "nah, you know what, I'm going to switch to Android," where they get 75% of the features for 25% of the price. Some of the Chinese Android phones really are surprisingly good, even at the £250 price bracket. My friend's £250 Xiaomi has incredible low-light camera performance. Makes the Xs look like something from 5 years ago.

    Current iPhone toting friends are either holding off on a 5s sized device, or as I am, cheaper phones. The flagship 6s was £650 which was pretty good bang for your buck. It was way better than any other phone then. The flagship Xs is now £1000, but hardware wise is it really that much better than the competition? Is it really that much better than the 6s? Software is of course much better than Android, but that was already factored into the £650 iPhone's cost. The Xs is certainly not £350 better than my 6s was at the time.
    If you consider Face ID and the Neural Engine yes, it is. Competitors have already given up face identification on behalf of “almost notchless” phones. Face ID is the only successful tech in that domain. Is it luxurious or burlesque? Absolutely not because you get it as cheap as $750, even cheaper with trade in on the XR. Don’t underestimate that Face ID assembly, it may open a whole growth domain to the iPhone such as health: face analysis, iris analysis, and even more (imagine a Siri that can detect makeup errors or suggest hair style :D ). It is not a fancy Animoji tool. The Watch acquired a whole health and fitness domain thanks to its heart rate sensors.

    Apple’s another superiority is its use of the same CPU across all models of the same generation. Competitors offer differing CPUs by country even in the same model, those may differ even by store or by batch, there is no guarantee. So you get an A12 iPhone for as low as $750 and even cheaper with trade in. I am very glad I could buy an A11 iPhone 8+ substantially cheaper than iPhone X.
    Android hasn't given up on face identification. It was used long before FaceID, (which is simply one - expensive - form of face identification and using 3D depth sensing) and is still widely used as a convenience biometric. It is a shame that Apple doesn't offer the same convenience options for iPhones without 3D depth sensing.

    Also, FaceID is not the only successful use of the tech. An example of using 3D depth sensing, 3D object scanning/modelling, skeletal mapping and VR:



    That video was taken almost a year ago. Baby steps but, AFAIK, Apple didn't provide anything similar when they could have done. Rumours point to the tech moving forward with the Mate 30 Pro.

    It is true that, in general, Android phones are trying to reduce notches to their minimum expression and passing on expensive biometrics where other solutions provide more than sufficient security for payments etc. I think the goal was to maximise screen to body ratios and that is what we are seeing.
    We don’t deal with vaporware. If those become a true product and in Apple’s scale come back again !
    It is a real product. The video was taken at the official presentation for the Mate 20 Pro last year. I didn't link to the full official presentation as it almost two hours long. That's why it's just someone filming from the audience.
    What you don’t understand is in today’s tech world, selling companies is more  important than selling products. This is why vaporware exist. Blow a balloon with apparently novel but most probably tried tested and already failed brilliant idea, upload a few videos to YouTube, buy a few expo booths, and you don’t have to deliver anything more. There are shitloads of click-thirsty tech writers and TV reporters that would jump onto that and automatically inflate you startup company’s value to some satisfactory level. Then you sell the company and become vapor yourself grabbing all those angel investors’ money. Even Apple couldn’t save itself from such a scam, remember their sapphire adventure.

    This is no longer your 1970s capitalism...
    You are not addressing the points I made:

    Face identification is widely used on Android even without 3D depth sensing.

    FaceID is simply a biometric and easily substituted for other biometrics if you want to maximise screen to body ratio.

    FaceID is not the only successful use of 3D depth sensing.

    You veered off into a rant on other points.

    FaceID is the most secure biometric lock in history. Apples not gonna give that up for you.

    Also face sensing on the knockoffs is rushed garbage to tick a box in typical Android fashion.
    FaceID actually isn't the 'most secure biometric lock in history' although I don't know what you mean by 'lock'.

    Either way, you seem to lack much knowledge on biometrics, purpose, trade-offs etc.

    Please backup your claim of 'garbage tick a box' Android feature.
    AppleExposedbigtdselijahgmuthuk_vanalingamCarnage
  • Reply 60 of 91
    bigtdsbigtds Posts: 167member
    LOL.... You apparently either didn't read what I wrote or it right over your head.   I said:   "He doesn't know a single kid, not one, who isn't using an iPhone or equivalent".
    That doesn't make him elitist.  It makes him normal.
    GeorgeBMac said:
     "I think my 12 year old grandson may serve as a good example of what's going on:

    He does not know a single kid (not one!) who doesn't have and use Apple products:   iPhones, iPads, iPods, Apple Watches, etc....   while many of their parents do use other (Samsung) products.   But the kids wouldn't be caught dead carrying a Samsung phone.

    Part of that is the prestige factor of Apple.   But most of it is the social networking that Apple enables with FaceTime and iMessage which the kids rely heavily on to communicate with each other.  Without an iPhone, iPad or iPod they are outcasts from their social network."

    Your words, not mine.
    muthuk_vanalingam
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