iPhone loyalty rates down to 8-year low, survey claims

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Comments

  • Reply 61 of 91
    GeorgeBMacGeorgeBMac Posts: 11,421member
    Soli said:
    There's really nothing surprising about this. The plateauing of smartphones design is upon us and with vendors following Apple's lead (which may or may not be from stolen IP) there are more than enough similarities. People that care about protecting their data probably won't jump to Android-based devices and those that are fine with built-in crapware (at best) and spyware (at worse) will likely never see a reason to use an iPhone. To each their own.
    1)  Rather than "stolen ip" it is more probably just a case of a maturing market -- just as happened with PCs a couple decades ago.  Samsung hardware (or that from Huawei or most any other vendor) is a close enough match to Apple's that most people won't notice enough of a difference to pay a premium price simply to get an Apple on the back cover.

    The fact the knockoffs now perform and act like iPhones are exactly why it's stolen IP.


    So the fact that it rains in China means that they stole our weather?
    That battle was fought 10 years ago -- or 20 years ago if you include MacOS.
    What a strange analogy to compare something organic to a tech IP.

    Just because it rained in China 10 years ago doesn't make rain disappear.
    So, you have no response....  OK...  I didn't expect one.
    elijahg
  • Reply 62 of 91
    bigtdsbigtds Posts: 167member
    Oh boo hoo. So buying a knockoff iPhone is being "independent"? What a joke.

    If your kid really wants to be an individual tell him to use a Blackberry.
    My comment was not about what device people use but about how people treat others based on what they choose to use. Kinda like what you do.
  • Reply 63 of 91
    GeorgeBMacGeorgeBMac Posts: 11,421member
    bigtds said:
    LOL.... You apparently either didn't read what I wrote or it right over your head.   I said:   "He doesn't know a single kid, not one, who isn't using an iPhone or equivalent".
    That doesn't make him elitist.  It makes him normal.
    GeorgeBMac said:
     "I think my 12 year old grandson may serve as a good example of what's going on:

    He does not know a single kid (not one!) who doesn't have and use Apple products:   iPhones, iPads, iPods, Apple Watches, etc....   while many of their parents do use other (Samsung) products.   But the kids wouldn't be caught dead carrying a Samsung phone.

    Part of that is the prestige factor of Apple.   But most of it is the social networking that Apple enables with FaceTime and iMessage which the kids rely heavily on to communicate with each other.  Without an iPhone, iPad or iPod they are outcasts from their social network."

    Your words, not mine.
    Yes, my words -- which you totally spun to say he's an eliitist, spoiled kid when what I did actually say was:   He is totally, completely normal because they ALL have iPhones and IF THERE WAS A KID WITHOUT AN iPHONE, he would be out of the loop.   But as I have said twice now -- there is no such kid.   They ALL have iPhones or the equivalent.  Every.  Single.  One. Of.  Them.   Please write that on the blackboard 50 times so that it sinks in.

    You can disaprove if it makes you happy.   But you can't change reality to suit you.   Sorry.
    AppleExposed
  • Reply 64 of 91
    avon b7avon b7 Posts: 6,515member
    bigtds said:
     I think my 12 year old grandson may serve as a good example of what's going on:

    He does not know a single kid (not one!) who doesn't have and use Apple products:   iPhones, iPads, iPods, Apple Watches, etc....   while many of their parents do use other (Samsung) products.   But the kids wouldn't be caught dead carrying a Samsung phone.

    Part of that is the prestige factor of Apple.   But most of it is the social networking that Apple enables with FaceTime and iMessage which the kids rely heavily on to communicate with each other.  Without an iPhone, iPad or iPod they are outcasts from their social network.
    The problem is, parents are teaching kids to be followers and not leaders. To treat others as outcasts because they are different or because they don't conform to standards you define is really dumb and has become a big problem in this country. These kids will grow up to be intolerant lemmings who's lives are defined by the idiot slabs they use to communicate with other idiots. Not something I would be proud of.
    Sorry, but these days, neighborhoods where kids went over and asked if "Johnny can come out and play" are long gone.

    So, kids today use technology to communicate with each other.   It has nothing to do with what parents teach or don't teach.   The kid without access to the necessary technology is out of the loop and left behind.

    Life is cruel.  Deal with t.
    I think this is a really interesting subject that is full of conflict. I agree with both of you to a point. I don't have kids but I have a perpetual internal debate where the underlying issues swirl around while times goes by and technology flies ahead before I can reach any kind of conclusion.

    In that context, 'deal with it' is probably the most realistic option (given how things stand today) but on another level things could be different.

    It's fascinating and very complex.

    I always remember some people telling me that they didn't want their kids on smartphones until around thirteen or fourteen but feared them being left behind. I think Steve Jobs might have made a similar claim at some point.
    bigtds
  • Reply 65 of 91
    RembertRembert Posts: 11unconfirmed, member
    Prices are way too high. And with pretty capable older phones like the SE and 6S there's no need to upgrade to the higher, more expensive, better looking models. It's still a phone and the SE and 6S are still good enough. Why pay over $1000 when a $100 second hand will do? I'd pay no more than $500 for a phone. Also the Macbook Pro has become way too expensive. I almost start to believe they've hired Jean-Louis Gassée again or maybe one of his disciples of the mantra "55 or die", requiring Apple products have a profit-margin of at least 55%.
    AI_liaselijahg
  • Reply 66 of 91
    AppleExposedAppleExposed Posts: 1,805unconfirmed, member
    avon b7 said:
    avon b7 said:
    avon b7 said:
    avon b7 said:
    elijahg said:
    jdw said:
    The continued presence of the "notch" coupled with what consumers perceive as the biggest bang for the buck is no doubt driving this.
    The notch doesn't concern me personally, but the price does. I'll always (within reason) be loyal to Apple, but more and more people are looking at Apple's £1000 phones and thinking "nah, you know what, I'm going to switch to Android," where they get 75% of the features for 25% of the price. Some of the Chinese Android phones really are surprisingly good, even at the £250 price bracket. My friend's £250 Xiaomi has incredible low-light camera performance. Makes the Xs look like something from 5 years ago.

    Current iPhone toting friends are either holding off on a 5s sized device, or as I am, cheaper phones. The flagship 6s was £650 which was pretty good bang for your buck. It was way better than any other phone then. The flagship Xs is now £1000, but hardware wise is it really that much better than the competition? Is it really that much better than the 6s? Software is of course much better than Android, but that was already factored into the £650 iPhone's cost. The Xs is certainly not £350 better than my 6s was at the time.
    If you consider Face ID and the Neural Engine yes, it is. Competitors have already given up face identification on behalf of “almost notchless” phones. Face ID is the only successful tech in that domain. Is it luxurious or burlesque? Absolutely not because you get it as cheap as $750, even cheaper with trade in on the XR. Don’t underestimate that Face ID assembly, it may open a whole growth domain to the iPhone such as health: face analysis, iris analysis, and even more (imagine a Siri that can detect makeup errors or suggest hair style :D ). It is not a fancy Animoji tool. The Watch acquired a whole health and fitness domain thanks to its heart rate sensors.

    Apple’s another superiority is its use of the same CPU across all models of the same generation. Competitors offer differing CPUs by country even in the same model, those may differ even by store or by batch, there is no guarantee. So you get an A12 iPhone for as low as $750 and even cheaper with trade in. I am very glad I could buy an A11 iPhone 8+ substantially cheaper than iPhone X.
    Android hasn't given up on face identification. It was used long before FaceID, (which is simply one - expensive - form of face identification and using 3D depth sensing) and is still widely used as a convenience biometric. It is a shame that Apple doesn't offer the same convenience options for iPhones without 3D depth sensing.

    Also, FaceID is not the only successful use of the tech. An example of using 3D depth sensing, 3D object scanning/modelling, skeletal mapping and VR:



    That video was taken almost a year ago. Baby steps but, AFAIK, Apple didn't provide anything similar when they could have done. Rumours point to the tech moving forward with the Mate 30 Pro.

    It is true that, in general, Android phones are trying to reduce notches to their minimum expression and passing on expensive biometrics where other solutions provide more than sufficient security for payments etc. I think the goal was to maximise screen to body ratios and that is what we are seeing.
    We don’t deal with vaporware. If those become a true product and in Apple’s scale come back again !
    It is a real product. The video was taken at the official presentation for the Mate 20 Pro last year. I didn't link to the full official presentation as it almost two hours long. That's why it's just someone filming from the audience.
    What you don’t understand is in today’s tech world, selling companies is more  important than selling products. This is why vaporware exist. Blow a balloon with apparently novel but most probably tried tested and already failed brilliant idea, upload a few videos to YouTube, buy a few expo booths, and you don’t have to deliver anything more. There are shitloads of click-thirsty tech writers and TV reporters that would jump onto that and automatically inflate you startup company’s value to some satisfactory level. Then you sell the company and become vapor yourself grabbing all those angel investors’ money. Even Apple couldn’t save itself from such a scam, remember their sapphire adventure.

    This is no longer your 1970s capitalism...
    You are not addressing the points I made:

    Face identification is widely used on Android even without 3D depth sensing.

    FaceID is simply a biometric and easily substituted for other biometrics if you want to maximise screen to body ratio.

    FaceID is not the only successful use of 3D depth sensing.

    You veered off into a rant on other points.

    FaceID is the most secure biometric lock in history. Apples not gonna give that up for you.

    Also face sensing on the knockoffs is rushed garbage to tick a box in typical Android fashion.
    FaceID actually isn't the 'most secure biometric lock in history' although I don't know what you mean by 'lock'.

    Either way, you seem to lack much knowledge on biometrics, purpose, trade-offs etc.

    Please backup your claim of 'garbage tick a box' Android feature.
    More garbage thrown in to tick a box.

    As an android apologist I'm shocked you have no idea what this is.
    StrangeDays
  • Reply 67 of 91
    AppleExposedAppleExposed Posts: 1,805unconfirmed, member
    bigtds said:
    Oh boo hoo. So buying a knockoff iPhone is being "independent"? What a joke.

    If your kid really wants to be an individual tell him to use a Blackberry.
    My comment was not about what device people use but about how people treat others based on what they choose to use. Kinda like what you do.

    Your comment made it seem like buying a knockoff iPhone made the kid "different". It's actually quite the opposite.

    I only treat dumb people like crap. I don't care what they use. Unfortunately Apple haters online are the most dumb people I come across and trust me, I'm in a lot of circles outside of tech and these guys are the most ignorant.
  • Reply 68 of 91
    AppleExposedAppleExposed Posts: 1,805unconfirmed, member
    Soli said:
    There's really nothing surprising about this. The plateauing of smartphones design is upon us and with vendors following Apple's lead (which may or may not be from stolen IP) there are more than enough similarities. People that care about protecting their data probably won't jump to Android-based devices and those that are fine with built-in crapware (at best) and spyware (at worse) will likely never see a reason to use an iPhone. To each their own.
    1)  Rather than "stolen ip" it is more probably just a case of a maturing market -- just as happened with PCs a couple decades ago.  Samsung hardware (or that from Huawei or most any other vendor) is a close enough match to Apple's that most people won't notice enough of a difference to pay a premium price simply to get an Apple on the back cover.

    The fact the knockoffs now perform and act like iPhones are exactly why it's stolen IP.


    So the fact that it rains in China means that they stole our weather?
    That battle was fought 10 years ago -- or 20 years ago if you include MacOS.
    What a strange analogy to compare something organic to a tech IP.

    Just because it rained in China 10 years ago doesn't make rain disappear.
    So, you have no response....  OK...  I didn't expect one.

    I don't think I can respond to it when you're comparing rain to actual patents. It's just ridiculous.

    Sorry, China can't steal weather but you know damn well they steal technology. 
    StrangeDays
  • Reply 69 of 91
    avon b7avon b7 Posts: 6,515member
    avon b7 said:
    avon b7 said:
    avon b7 said:
    elijahg said:
    jdw said:
    The continued presence of the "notch" coupled with what consumers perceive as the biggest bang for the buck is no doubt driving this.
    The notch doesn't concern me personally, but the price does. I'll always (within reason) be loyal to Apple, but more and more people are looking at Apple's £1000 phones and thinking "nah, you know what, I'm going to switch to Android," where they get 75% of the features for 25% of the price. Some of the Chinese Android phones really are surprisingly good, even at the £250 price bracket. My friend's £250 Xiaomi has incredible low-light camera performance. Makes the Xs look like something from 5 years ago.

    Current iPhone toting friends are either holding off on a 5s sized device, or as I am, cheaper phones. The flagship 6s was £650 which was pretty good bang for your buck. It was way better than any other phone then. The flagship Xs is now £1000, but hardware wise is it really that much better than the competition? Is it really that much better than the 6s? Software is of course much better than Android, but that was already factored into the £650 iPhone's cost. The Xs is certainly not £350 better than my 6s was at the time.
    If you consider Face ID and the Neural Engine yes, it is. Competitors have already given up face identification on behalf of “almost notchless” phones. Face ID is the only successful tech in that domain. Is it luxurious or burlesque? Absolutely not because you get it as cheap as $750, even cheaper with trade in on the XR. Don’t underestimate that Face ID assembly, it may open a whole growth domain to the iPhone such as health: face analysis, iris analysis, and even more (imagine a Siri that can detect makeup errors or suggest hair style :D ). It is not a fancy Animoji tool. The Watch acquired a whole health and fitness domain thanks to its heart rate sensors.

    Apple’s another superiority is its use of the same CPU across all models of the same generation. Competitors offer differing CPUs by country even in the same model, those may differ even by store or by batch, there is no guarantee. So you get an A12 iPhone for as low as $750 and even cheaper with trade in. I am very glad I could buy an A11 iPhone 8+ substantially cheaper than iPhone X.
    Android hasn't given up on face identification. It was used long before FaceID, (which is simply one - expensive - form of face identification and using 3D depth sensing) and is still widely used as a convenience biometric. It is a shame that Apple doesn't offer the same convenience options for iPhones without 3D depth sensing.

    Also, FaceID is not the only successful use of the tech. An example of using 3D depth sensing, 3D object scanning/modelling, skeletal mapping and VR:



    That video was taken almost a year ago. Baby steps but, AFAIK, Apple didn't provide anything similar when they could have done. Rumours point to the tech moving forward with the Mate 30 Pro.

    It is true that, in general, Android phones are trying to reduce notches to their minimum expression and passing on expensive biometrics where other solutions provide more than sufficient security for payments etc. I think the goal was to maximise screen to body ratios and that is what we are seeing.
    We don’t deal with vaporware. If those become a true product and in Apple’s scale come back again !
    It is a real product. The video was taken at the official presentation for the Mate 20 Pro last year. I didn't link to the full official presentation as it almost two hours long. That's why it's just someone filming from the audience.
    What you don’t understand is in today’s tech world, selling companies is more  important than selling products. This is why vaporware exist. Blow a balloon with apparently novel but most probably tried tested and already failed brilliant idea, upload a few videos to YouTube, buy a few expo booths, and you don’t have to deliver anything more. There are shitloads of click-thirsty tech writers and TV reporters that would jump onto that and automatically inflate you startup company’s value to some satisfactory level. Then you sell the company and become vapor yourself grabbing all those angel investors’ money. Even Apple couldn’t save itself from such a scam, remember their sapphire adventure.

    This is no longer your 1970s capitalism...
    You are not addressing the points I made:

    Face identification is widely used on Android even without 3D depth sensing.

    FaceID is simply a biometric and easily substituted for other biometrics if you want to maximise screen to body ratio.

    FaceID is not the only successful use of 3D depth sensing.

    You veered off into a rant on other points.
    Face recognition without 3D depth sensing can be easily fooled by a flat picture. You become boring sometimes.
    First, it isn't easily fooled with the latest algorithms but that is besides the point.

    As I said face identification was used long before FaceID but as a convenience feature. It was never used as a security feature and why I believe you could never use it to authorise a payment for example. Other biometrics handle that.

    However, just having the option on a non-FaceID iPhone would be welcome for many users. Options are nice. Remember, 'security' isn't the idea! Convenience is!
    edited July 2019
  • Reply 70 of 91
    crowleycrowley Posts: 10,453member
        
    GeorgeBMac
  • Reply 71 of 91
    avon b7avon b7 Posts: 6,515member
    avon b7 said:
    avon b7 said:
    avon b7 said:
    avon b7 said:
    elijahg said:
    jdw said:
    The continued presence of the "notch" coupled with what consumers perceive as the biggest bang for the buck is no doubt driving this.
    The notch doesn't concern me personally, but the price does. I'll always (within reason) be loyal to Apple, but more and more people are looking at Apple's £1000 phones and thinking "nah, you know what, I'm going to switch to Android," where they get 75% of the features for 25% of the price. Some of the Chinese Android phones really are surprisingly good, even at the £250 price bracket. My friend's £250 Xiaomi has incredible low-light camera performance. Makes the Xs look like something from 5 years ago.

    Current iPhone toting friends are either holding off on a 5s sized device, or as I am, cheaper phones. The flagship 6s was £650 which was pretty good bang for your buck. It was way better than any other phone then. The flagship Xs is now £1000, but hardware wise is it really that much better than the competition? Is it really that much better than the 6s? Software is of course much better than Android, but that was already factored into the £650 iPhone's cost. The Xs is certainly not £350 better than my 6s was at the time.
    If you consider Face ID and the Neural Engine yes, it is. Competitors have already given up face identification on behalf of “almost notchless” phones. Face ID is the only successful tech in that domain. Is it luxurious or burlesque? Absolutely not because you get it as cheap as $750, even cheaper with trade in on the XR. Don’t underestimate that Face ID assembly, it may open a whole growth domain to the iPhone such as health: face analysis, iris analysis, and even more (imagine a Siri that can detect makeup errors or suggest hair style :D ). It is not a fancy Animoji tool. The Watch acquired a whole health and fitness domain thanks to its heart rate sensors.

    Apple’s another superiority is its use of the same CPU across all models of the same generation. Competitors offer differing CPUs by country even in the same model, those may differ even by store or by batch, there is no guarantee. So you get an A12 iPhone for as low as $750 and even cheaper with trade in. I am very glad I could buy an A11 iPhone 8+ substantially cheaper than iPhone X.
    Android hasn't given up on face identification. It was used long before FaceID, (which is simply one - expensive - form of face identification and using 3D depth sensing) and is still widely used as a convenience biometric. It is a shame that Apple doesn't offer the same convenience options for iPhones without 3D depth sensing.

    Also, FaceID is not the only successful use of the tech. An example of using 3D depth sensing, 3D object scanning/modelling, skeletal mapping and VR:



    That video was taken almost a year ago. Baby steps but, AFAIK, Apple didn't provide anything similar when they could have done. Rumours point to the tech moving forward with the Mate 30 Pro.

    It is true that, in general, Android phones are trying to reduce notches to their minimum expression and passing on expensive biometrics where other solutions provide more than sufficient security for payments etc. I think the goal was to maximise screen to body ratios and that is what we are seeing.
    We don’t deal with vaporware. If those become a true product and in Apple’s scale come back again !
    It is a real product. The video was taken at the official presentation for the Mate 20 Pro last year. I didn't link to the full official presentation as it almost two hours long. That's why it's just someone filming from the audience.
    What you don’t understand is in today’s tech world, selling companies is more  important than selling products. This is why vaporware exist. Blow a balloon with apparently novel but most probably tried tested and already failed brilliant idea, upload a few videos to YouTube, buy a few expo booths, and you don’t have to deliver anything more. There are shitloads of click-thirsty tech writers and TV reporters that would jump onto that and automatically inflate you startup company’s value to some satisfactory level. Then you sell the company and become vapor yourself grabbing all those angel investors’ money. Even Apple couldn’t save itself from such a scam, remember their sapphire adventure.

    This is no longer your 1970s capitalism...
    You are not addressing the points I made:

    Face identification is widely used on Android even without 3D depth sensing.

    FaceID is simply a biometric and easily substituted for other biometrics if you want to maximise screen to body ratio.

    FaceID is not the only successful use of 3D depth sensing.

    You veered off into a rant on other points.

    FaceID is the most secure biometric lock in history. Apples not gonna give that up for you.

    Also face sensing on the knockoffs is rushed garbage to tick a box in typical Android fashion.
    FaceID actually isn't the 'most secure biometric lock in history' although I don't know what you mean by 'lock'.

    Either way, you seem to lack much knowledge on biometrics, purpose, trade-offs etc.

    Please backup your claim of 'garbage tick a box' Android feature.
    More garbage thrown in to tick a box.

    As an android apologist I'm shocked you have no idea what this is.
    You are not responding to the points I made.

    I have linked to two Android phone features in this thread as direct counters to affirmations, made right here, that were untrue. I have also challenged your claim about FaceID.

    1. Huawei took a baby (but bold) step in providing the 3D Live Object Modelling feature, taking advantage of the 3D depth sensing technology. Are you calling that step 'garbage'? Did you see what was involved?

    2. One Hop: is that 'garbage' too? I will add something that is pure speculation on my part but may be coming at some point. What if you could open an image file or video file on your phone, point it at the TV and literally 'flick' up with you finger on your phone screen and  send to file to be viewed on the TV screen? Would that be garbage?

    3. Is iris scanning technology more secure than FaceID?
    bigtdselijahgIreneW
  • Reply 72 of 91
    GeorgeBMacGeorgeBMac Posts: 11,421member
    avon b7 said:
    bigtds said:
     I think my 12 year old grandson may serve as a good example of what's going on:

    He does not know a single kid (not one!) who doesn't have and use Apple products:   iPhones, iPads, iPods, Apple Watches, etc....   while many of their parents do use other (Samsung) products.   But the kids wouldn't be caught dead carrying a Samsung phone.

    Part of that is the prestige factor of Apple.   But most of it is the social networking that Apple enables with FaceTime and iMessage which the kids rely heavily on to communicate with each other.  Without an iPhone, iPad or iPod they are outcasts from their social network.
    The problem is, parents are teaching kids to be followers and not leaders. To treat others as outcasts because they are different or because they don't conform to standards you define is really dumb and has become a big problem in this country. These kids will grow up to be intolerant lemmings who's lives are defined by the idiot slabs they use to communicate with other idiots. Not something I would be proud of.
    Sorry, but these days, neighborhoods where kids went over and asked if "Johnny can come out and play" are long gone.

    So, kids today use technology to communicate with each other.   It has nothing to do with what parents teach or don't teach.   The kid without access to the necessary technology is out of the loop and left behind.

    Life is cruel.  Deal with t.
    I think this is a really interesting subject that is full of conflict. I agree with both of you to a point. I don't have kids but I have a perpetual internal debate where the underlying issues swirl around while times goes by and technology flies ahead before I can reach any kind of conclusion.

    In that context, 'deal with it' is probably the most realistic option (given how things stand today) but on another level things could be different.

    It's fascinating and very complex.

    I always remember some people telling me that they didn't want their kids on smartphones until around thirteen or fourteen but feared them being left behind. I think Steve Jobs might have made a similar claim at some point.
    So many parts of the equation have changed....
    Part of it is that parents are afraid to leave their kid outside without an adult standing guard.   So, unless the kid has an organized activity or a "play date" they are locked in the house.*  But, even without that, kids usually can't physically walk to a friend's house and knock on the door -- they live too far apart.  

    So, using smart phones they not only stay in touch but are able to arrange meet ups where they can physically interact.   So, in many ways the smart phone is doing the opposite of what it is often criticized for doing:  Instead of isolating kids it is uniting them and promoting social interaction!   "Unintended consequences" aren't always bad!



    * That's even different in different places:   My grandson lives in a well-to-do area of new money and very right wing.   Next to me is another well-to-do area of old money that is very liberal.   Where my grandson lives you never see kids out by themselves.   But, in the liberal area I see them out walking, talking, biking like it was  50 years ago all the time -- they even walk to school (but not uphill both ways like we did!)  
    edited July 2019
  • Reply 73 of 91
    GeorgeBMacGeorgeBMac Posts: 11,421member
    Soli said:
    There's really nothing surprising about this. The plateauing of smartphones design is upon us and with vendors following Apple's lead (which may or may not be from stolen IP) there are more than enough similarities. People that care about protecting their data probably won't jump to Android-based devices and those that are fine with built-in crapware (at best) and spyware (at worse) will likely never see a reason to use an iPhone. To each their own.
    1)  Rather than "stolen ip" it is more probably just a case of a maturing market -- just as happened with PCs a couple decades ago.  Samsung hardware (or that from Huawei or most any other vendor) is a close enough match to Apple's that most people won't notice enough of a difference to pay a premium price simply to get an Apple on the back cover.

    The fact the knockoffs now perform and act like iPhones are exactly why it's stolen IP.


    So the fact that it rains in China means that they stole our weather?
    That battle was fought 10 years ago -- or 20 years ago if you include MacOS.
    What a strange analogy to compare something organic to a tech IP.

    Just because it rained in China 10 years ago doesn't make rain disappear.
    So, you have no response....  OK...  I didn't expect one.

    I don't think I can respond to it when you're comparing rain to actual patents. It's just ridiculous.

    Sorry, China can't steal weather but you know damn well they steal technology. 
    Yes!  The Liar in Chief keeps telling us that!    And we all believe and obey....
  • Reply 74 of 91
    macplusplusmacplusplus Posts: 2,111member
    avon b7 said:
    avon b7 said:
    avon b7 said:
    avon b7 said:
    elijahg said:
    jdw said:
    The continued presence of the "notch" coupled with what consumers perceive as the biggest bang for the buck is no doubt driving this.
    The notch doesn't concern me personally, but the price does. I'll always (within reason) be loyal to Apple, but more and more people are looking at Apple's £1000 phones and thinking "nah, you know what, I'm going to switch to Android," where they get 75% of the features for 25% of the price. Some of the Chinese Android phones really are surprisingly good, even at the £250 price bracket. My friend's £250 Xiaomi has incredible low-light camera performance. Makes the Xs look like something from 5 years ago.

    Current iPhone toting friends are either holding off on a 5s sized device, or as I am, cheaper phones. The flagship 6s was £650 which was pretty good bang for your buck. It was way better than any other phone then. The flagship Xs is now £1000, but hardware wise is it really that much better than the competition? Is it really that much better than the 6s? Software is of course much better than Android, but that was already factored into the £650 iPhone's cost. The Xs is certainly not £350 better than my 6s was at the time.
    If you consider Face ID and the Neural Engine yes, it is. Competitors have already given up face identification on behalf of “almost notchless” phones. Face ID is the only successful tech in that domain. Is it luxurious or burlesque? Absolutely not because you get it as cheap as $750, even cheaper with trade in on the XR. Don’t underestimate that Face ID assembly, it may open a whole growth domain to the iPhone such as health: face analysis, iris analysis, and even more (imagine a Siri that can detect makeup errors or suggest hair style :D ). It is not a fancy Animoji tool. The Watch acquired a whole health and fitness domain thanks to its heart rate sensors.

    Apple’s another superiority is its use of the same CPU across all models of the same generation. Competitors offer differing CPUs by country even in the same model, those may differ even by store or by batch, there is no guarantee. So you get an A12 iPhone for as low as $750 and even cheaper with trade in. I am very glad I could buy an A11 iPhone 8+ substantially cheaper than iPhone X.
    Android hasn't given up on face identification. It was used long before FaceID, (which is simply one - expensive - form of face identification and using 3D depth sensing) and is still widely used as a convenience biometric. It is a shame that Apple doesn't offer the same convenience options for iPhones without 3D depth sensing.

    Also, FaceID is not the only successful use of the tech. An example of using 3D depth sensing, 3D object scanning/modelling, skeletal mapping and VR:



    That video was taken almost a year ago. Baby steps but, AFAIK, Apple didn't provide anything similar when they could have done. Rumours point to the tech moving forward with the Mate 30 Pro.

    It is true that, in general, Android phones are trying to reduce notches to their minimum expression and passing on expensive biometrics where other solutions provide more than sufficient security for payments etc. I think the goal was to maximise screen to body ratios and that is what we are seeing.
    We don’t deal with vaporware. If those become a true product and in Apple’s scale come back again !
    It is a real product. The video was taken at the official presentation for the Mate 20 Pro last year. I didn't link to the full official presentation as it almost two hours long. That's why it's just someone filming from the audience.
    What you don’t understand is in today’s tech world, selling companies is more  important than selling products. This is why vaporware exist. Blow a balloon with apparently novel but most probably tried tested and already failed brilliant idea, upload a few videos to YouTube, buy a few expo booths, and you don’t have to deliver anything more. There are shitloads of click-thirsty tech writers and TV reporters that would jump onto that and automatically inflate you startup company’s value to some satisfactory level. Then you sell the company and become vapor yourself grabbing all those angel investors’ money. Even Apple couldn’t save itself from such a scam, remember their sapphire adventure.

    This is no longer your 1970s capitalism...
    You are not addressing the points I made:

    Face identification is widely used on Android even without 3D depth sensing.

    FaceID is simply a biometric and easily substituted for other biometrics if you want to maximise screen to body ratio.

    FaceID is not the only successful use of 3D depth sensing.

    You veered off into a rant on other points.
    Face recognition without 3D depth sensing can be easily fooled by a flat picture. You become boring sometimes.
    First, it isn't easily fooled with the latest algorithms but that is besides the point.

    As I said face identification was used long before FaceID but as a convenience feature. It was never used as a security feature and why I believe you could never use it to authorise a payment for example. Other biometrics handle that.

    However, just having the option on a non-FaceID iPhone would be welcome for many users. Options are nice. Remember, 'security' isn't the idea! Convenience is!
    To your surprise Face ID is used to authorize a payment today, authorizing payments is one the reasons of Face ID’s security. If Face ID wasn’t secure banks would reject Apple Pay. Face ID coupled with Apple Pay got the security seal from the banks, where are you living to not understand that?

    Security is well the idea, it is almost all idea behind such a personal item as a smartphone. Data Protection Directive and alike, EU is struggling to provide the most secure digital life to citizens like you, you just cannot ridicule security under the pretext of convenience. Face ID is both secure and convenient. Convenience precedes security and it is a prerequisite for security, since the human is the worst factor in implementing a security scheme. If it is not convenient, it is not secure either. This is why Apple didn’t move Touch ID behind the phone. Instead of implementing it in such an inconvenient way, they removed it altogether until a more convenient implementation on a full screen iPhone. If you want to philosophize on technology I can feed you during hours and hours but I hope you have better things to do.
    edited July 2019 StrangeDays
  • Reply 75 of 91
    StrangeDaysStrangeDays Posts: 12,325member
    avon b7 said:
    avon b7 said:
    avon b7 said:
    avon b7 said:
    elijahg said:
    jdw said:
    The continued presence of the "notch" coupled with what consumers perceive as the biggest bang for the buck is no doubt driving this.
    The notch doesn't concern me personally, but the price does. I'll always (within reason) be loyal to Apple, but more and more people are looking at Apple's £1000 phones and thinking "nah, you know what, I'm going to switch to Android," where they get 75% of the features for 25% of the price. Some of the Chinese Android phones really are surprisingly good, even at the £250 price bracket. My friend's £250 Xiaomi has incredible low-light camera performance. Makes the Xs look like something from 5 years ago.

    Current iPhone toting friends are either holding off on a 5s sized device, or as I am, cheaper phones. The flagship 6s was £650 which was pretty good bang for your buck. It was way better than any other phone then. The flagship Xs is now £1000, but hardware wise is it really that much better than the competition? Is it really that much better than the 6s? Software is of course much better than Android, but that was already factored into the £650 iPhone's cost. The Xs is certainly not £350 better than my 6s was at the time.
    If you consider Face ID and the Neural Engine yes, it is. Competitors have already given up face identification on behalf of “almost notchless” phones. Face ID is the only successful tech in that domain. Is it luxurious or burlesque? Absolutely not because you get it as cheap as $750, even cheaper with trade in on the XR. Don’t underestimate that Face ID assembly, it may open a whole growth domain to the iPhone such as health: face analysis, iris analysis, and even more (imagine a Siri that can detect makeup errors or suggest hair style :D ). It is not a fancy Animoji tool. The Watch acquired a whole health and fitness domain thanks to its heart rate sensors.

    Apple’s another superiority is its use of the same CPU across all models of the same generation. Competitors offer differing CPUs by country even in the same model, those may differ even by store or by batch, there is no guarantee. So you get an A12 iPhone for as low as $750 and even cheaper with trade in. I am very glad I could buy an A11 iPhone 8+ substantially cheaper than iPhone X.
    Android hasn't given up on face identification. It was used long before FaceID, (which is simply one - expensive - form of face identification and using 3D depth sensing) and is still widely used as a convenience biometric. It is a shame that Apple doesn't offer the same convenience options for iPhones without 3D depth sensing.

    Also, FaceID is not the only successful use of the tech. An example of using 3D depth sensing, 3D object scanning/modelling, skeletal mapping and VR:



    That video was taken almost a year ago. Baby steps but, AFAIK, Apple didn't provide anything similar when they could have done. Rumours point to the tech moving forward with the Mate 30 Pro.

    It is true that, in general, Android phones are trying to reduce notches to their minimum expression and passing on expensive biometrics where other solutions provide more than sufficient security for payments etc. I think the goal was to maximise screen to body ratios and that is what we are seeing.
    We don’t deal with vaporware. If those become a true product and in Apple’s scale come back again !
    It is a real product. The video was taken at the official presentation for the Mate 20 Pro last year. I didn't link to the full official presentation as it almost two hours long. That's why it's just someone filming from the audience.
    What you don’t understand is in today’s tech world, selling companies is more  important than selling products. This is why vaporware exist. Blow a balloon with apparently novel but most probably tried tested and already failed brilliant idea, upload a few videos to YouTube, buy a few expo booths, and you don’t have to deliver anything more. There are shitloads of click-thirsty tech writers and TV reporters that would jump onto that and automatically inflate you startup company’s value to some satisfactory level. Then you sell the company and become vapor yourself grabbing all those angel investors’ money. Even Apple couldn’t save itself from such a scam, remember their sapphire adventure.

    This is no longer your 1970s capitalism...
    You are not addressing the points I made:

    Face identification is widely used on Android even without 3D depth sensing.

    FaceID is simply a biometric and easily substituted for other biometrics if you want to maximise screen to body ratio.

    FaceID is not the only successful use of 3D depth sensing.

    You veered off into a rant on other points.
    Face recognition without 3D depth sensing can be easily fooled by a flat picture. You become boring sometimes.
    First, it isn't easily fooled with the latest algorithms but that is besides the point.

    As I said face identification was used long before FaceID but as a convenience feature. It was never used as a security feature and why I believe you could never use it to authorise a payment for example. Other biometrics handle that.

    However, just having the option on a non-FaceID iPhone would be welcome for many users. Options are nice. Remember, 'security' isn't the idea! Convenience is!
    Move them goalposts! Face-recognition is “only a convenience! not for security” on android because none of those jokers can create one that works correctly — they either burned your retinas out or are easily fooled with a freakin’ photo. Pathetic. Which is why you now pretend that such failings are a feature, not a bug. Also pathetic. 
    Soli
  • Reply 76 of 91
    StrangeDaysStrangeDays Posts: 12,325member

    Soli said:
    There's really nothing surprising about this. The plateauing of smartphones design is upon us and with vendors following Apple's lead (which may or may not be from stolen IP) there are more than enough similarities. People that care about protecting their data probably won't jump to Android-based devices and those that are fine with built-in crapware (at best) and spyware (at worse) will likely never see a reason to use an iPhone. To each their own.
    1)  Rather than "stolen ip" it is more probably just a case of a maturing market -- just as happened with PCs a couple decades ago.  Samsung hardware (or that from Huawei or most any other vendor) is a close enough match to Apple's that most people won't notice enough of a difference to pay a premium price simply to get an Apple on the back cover.

    The fact the knockoffs now perform and act like iPhones are exactly why it's stolen IP.


    So the fact that it rains in China means that they stole our weather?
    That battle was fought 10 years ago -- or 20 years ago if you include MacOS.
    What a strange analogy to compare something organic to a tech IP.

    Just because it rained in China 10 years ago doesn't make rain disappear.
    So, you have no response....  OK...  I didn't expect one.

    I don't think I can respond to it when you're comparing rain to actual patents. It's just ridiculous.

    Sorry, China can't steal weather but you know damn well they steal technology. 
    Yes!  The Liar in Chief keeps telling us that!    And we all believe and obey....
    While I dislike the president, your hatred makes you uselessly irrational. US companies have complained of Chinese IP theft for decades. (Recent headlines have chinese autonomous car companies stealing US tech from Apple and Tesla). To pretend it’s all just pretend because you don’t like the administration is about as dim as one can get. Talk about cognitive dissonance. 
    edited July 2019 Soli
  • Reply 77 of 91
    avon b7avon b7 Posts: 6,515member
    avon b7 said:
    avon b7 said:
    avon b7 said:
    avon b7 said:
    elijahg said:
    jdw said:
    The continued presence of the "notch" coupled with what consumers perceive as the biggest bang for the buck is no doubt driving this.
    The notch doesn't concern me personally, but the price does. I'll always (within reason) be loyal to Apple, but more and more people are looking at Apple's £1000 phones and thinking "nah, you know what, I'm going to switch to Android," where they get 75% of the features for 25% of the price. Some of the Chinese Android phones really are surprisingly good, even at the £250 price bracket. My friend's £250 Xiaomi has incredible low-light camera performance. Makes the Xs look like something from 5 years ago.

    Current iPhone toting friends are either holding off on a 5s sized device, or as I am, cheaper phones. The flagship 6s was £650 which was pretty good bang for your buck. It was way better than any other phone then. The flagship Xs is now £1000, but hardware wise is it really that much better than the competition? Is it really that much better than the 6s? Software is of course much better than Android, but that was already factored into the £650 iPhone's cost. The Xs is certainly not £350 better than my 6s was at the time.
    If you consider Face ID and the Neural Engine yes, it is. Competitors have already given up face identification on behalf of “almost notchless” phones. Face ID is the only successful tech in that domain. Is it luxurious or burlesque? Absolutely not because you get it as cheap as $750, even cheaper with trade in on the XR. Don’t underestimate that Face ID assembly, it may open a whole growth domain to the iPhone such as health: face analysis, iris analysis, and even more (imagine a Siri that can detect makeup errors or suggest hair style :D ). It is not a fancy Animoji tool. The Watch acquired a whole health and fitness domain thanks to its heart rate sensors.

    Apple’s another superiority is its use of the same CPU across all models of the same generation. Competitors offer differing CPUs by country even in the same model, those may differ even by store or by batch, there is no guarantee. So you get an A12 iPhone for as low as $750 and even cheaper with trade in. I am very glad I could buy an A11 iPhone 8+ substantially cheaper than iPhone X.
    Android hasn't given up on face identification. It was used long before FaceID, (which is simply one - expensive - form of face identification and using 3D depth sensing) and is still widely used as a convenience biometric. It is a shame that Apple doesn't offer the same convenience options for iPhones without 3D depth sensing.

    Also, FaceID is not the only successful use of the tech. An example of using 3D depth sensing, 3D object scanning/modelling, skeletal mapping and VR:



    That video was taken almost a year ago. Baby steps but, AFAIK, Apple didn't provide anything similar when they could have done. Rumours point to the tech moving forward with the Mate 30 Pro.

    It is true that, in general, Android phones are trying to reduce notches to their minimum expression and passing on expensive biometrics where other solutions provide more than sufficient security for payments etc. I think the goal was to maximise screen to body ratios and that is what we are seeing.
    We don’t deal with vaporware. If those become a true product and in Apple’s scale come back again !
    It is a real product. The video was taken at the official presentation for the Mate 20 Pro last year. I didn't link to the full official presentation as it almost two hours long. That's why it's just someone filming from the audience.
    What you don’t understand is in today’s tech world, selling companies is more  important than selling products. This is why vaporware exist. Blow a balloon with apparently novel but most probably tried tested and already failed brilliant idea, upload a few videos to YouTube, buy a few expo booths, and you don’t have to deliver anything more. There are shitloads of click-thirsty tech writers and TV reporters that would jump onto that and automatically inflate you startup company’s value to some satisfactory level. Then you sell the company and become vapor yourself grabbing all those angel investors’ money. Even Apple couldn’t save itself from such a scam, remember their sapphire adventure.

    This is no longer your 1970s capitalism...
    You are not addressing the points I made:

    Face identification is widely used on Android even without 3D depth sensing.

    FaceID is simply a biometric and easily substituted for other biometrics if you want to maximise screen to body ratio.

    FaceID is not the only successful use of 3D depth sensing.

    You veered off into a rant on other points.
    Face recognition without 3D depth sensing can be easily fooled by a flat picture. You become boring sometimes.
    First, it isn't easily fooled with the latest algorithms but that is besides the point.

    As I said face identification was used long before FaceID but as a convenience feature. It was never used as a security feature and why I believe you could never use it to authorise a payment for example. Other biometrics handle that.

    However, just having the option on a non-FaceID iPhone would be welcome for many users. Options are nice. Remember, 'security' isn't the idea! Convenience is!
    To your surprise Face ID is used to authorize a payment today, authorizing payments is one the reasons of Face ID’s security. If Face ID wasn’t secure banks would reject Apple Pay. Face ID coupled with Apple Pay got the security seal from the banks, where are you living to not understand that?

    Security is well the idea, it is almost all idea behind such a personal item as a smartphone. Data Protection Directive and alike, EU is struggling to provide the most secure digital life to citizens like you, you just cannot ridicule security under the pretext of convenience. Face ID is both secure and convenient. Convenience precedes security and it is a prerequisite for security, since the human is the worst factor in implementing a security scheme. If it is not convenient, it is not secure either. This is why Apple didn’t move Touch ID behind the phone. Instead of implementing it in such an inconvenient way, they removed it altogether until a more convenient implementation on a full screen iPhone. If you want to philosophize on technology I can feed you during hours and hours but I hope you have better things to do.
    If you want security you use accepted secure measures. There are a few to choose from. They are all trade-offs to a degree.

    But what does security have to do with convenience? Nothing.

    And if convenience includes a level of security but not enough to authorise a bank payment, your options grow bigger. There are tradeoffs to consider. Should iPhone 8 series users be denied the option? Even understanding the lower security angle? Simply because their phones do not have 3D depth sensing?

    Virtually the entire Android flagship world offers the feature. It was great before FaceID arrived and it's still great now. And by the way, the 'contextual' part of face detection was also implemented long before FaceID. As was eye tracking to kmow if you were actually looking at the screen or not (to turn it off for power saving).

    What is your point with 'FaceID can authorise payments today'? The Mate 20 Pro does exactly the same thing today. I suppose some Xiaomi phones too. Other phones simply ask for a fingerprint.

    Appreciating convenience has absolutely nothing to do with ridiculing anything. 

    Security is security.
    Convenience is convenience.

    If convenience comes with a degree of security, it is simply a plus.

    Where on earth did you get the idea of ridiculing?

    If convenience is a prerequisite for security, why did (does?) Apple allow users to NOT set a passcode? Convenience can lead to NO security. That said, in the trade-offs involved in security, convenience, reliability, accuracy and speed are important factors.

    Rear mounted fingerprint sensors were/are purely a case of user preference. IMO, the best place for them. I love them on the back and have debunked countless claims to the contrary (often from people who have never even used one).

    However, you are drifting from what you originally said, namely that no other phone had made good use of 3D depth sensing technology and that Android vendors had given up on face identification.

    Both affirmations are incorrect.

  • Reply 78 of 91
    macplusplusmacplusplus Posts: 2,111member
    avon b7 said:
    avon b7 said:
    avon b7 said:
    avon b7 said:
    avon b7 said:
    elijahg said:
    jdw said:
    The continued presence of the "notch" coupled with what consumers perceive as the biggest bang for the buck is no doubt driving this.
    The notch doesn't concern me personally, but the price does. I'll always (within reason) be loyal to Apple, but more and more people are looking at Apple's £1000 phones and thinking "nah, you know what, I'm going to switch to Android," where they get 75% of the features for 25% of the price. Some of the Chinese Android phones really are surprisingly good, even at the £250 price bracket. My friend's £250 Xiaomi has incredible low-light camera performance. Makes the Xs look like something from 5 years ago.

    Current iPhone toting friends are either holding off on a 5s sized device, or as I am, cheaper phones. The flagship 6s was £650 which was pretty good bang for your buck. It was way better than any other phone then. The flagship Xs is now £1000, but hardware wise is it really that much better than the competition? Is it really that much better than the 6s? Software is of course much better than Android, but that was already factored into the £650 iPhone's cost. The Xs is certainly not £350 better than my 6s was at the time.
    If you consider Face ID and the Neural Engine yes, it is. Competitors have already given up face identification on behalf of “almost notchless” phones. Face ID is the only successful tech in that domain. Is it luxurious or burlesque? Absolutely not because you get it as cheap as $750, even cheaper with trade in on the XR. Don’t underestimate that Face ID assembly, it may open a whole growth domain to the iPhone such as health: face analysis, iris analysis, and even more (imagine a Siri that can detect makeup errors or suggest hair style :D ). It is not a fancy Animoji tool. The Watch acquired a whole health and fitness domain thanks to its heart rate sensors.

    Apple’s another superiority is its use of the same CPU across all models of the same generation. Competitors offer differing CPUs by country even in the same model, those may differ even by store or by batch, there is no guarantee. So you get an A12 iPhone for as low as $750 and even cheaper with trade in. I am very glad I could buy an A11 iPhone 8+ substantially cheaper than iPhone X.
    Android hasn't given up on face identification. It was used long before FaceID, (which is simply one - expensive - form of face identification and using 3D depth sensing) and is still widely used as a convenience biometric. It is a shame that Apple doesn't offer the same convenience options for iPhones without 3D depth sensing.

    Also, FaceID is not the only successful use of the tech. An example of using 3D depth sensing, 3D object scanning/modelling, skeletal mapping and VR:



    That video was taken almost a year ago. Baby steps but, AFAIK, Apple didn't provide anything similar when they could have done. Rumours point to the tech moving forward with the Mate 30 Pro.

    It is true that, in general, Android phones are trying to reduce notches to their minimum expression and passing on expensive biometrics where other solutions provide more than sufficient security for payments etc. I think the goal was to maximise screen to body ratios and that is what we are seeing.
    We don’t deal with vaporware. If those become a true product and in Apple’s scale come back again !
    It is a real product. The video was taken at the official presentation for the Mate 20 Pro last year. I didn't link to the full official presentation as it almost two hours long. That's why it's just someone filming from the audience.
    What you don’t understand is in today’s tech world, selling companies is more  important than selling products. This is why vaporware exist. Blow a balloon with apparently novel but most probably tried tested and already failed brilliant idea, upload a few videos to YouTube, buy a few expo booths, and you don’t have to deliver anything more. There are shitloads of click-thirsty tech writers and TV reporters that would jump onto that and automatically inflate you startup company’s value to some satisfactory level. Then you sell the company and become vapor yourself grabbing all those angel investors’ money. Even Apple couldn’t save itself from such a scam, remember their sapphire adventure.

    This is no longer your 1970s capitalism...
    You are not addressing the points I made:

    Face identification is widely used on Android even without 3D depth sensing.

    FaceID is simply a biometric and easily substituted for other biometrics if you want to maximise screen to body ratio.

    FaceID is not the only successful use of 3D depth sensing.

    You veered off into a rant on other points.
    Face recognition without 3D depth sensing can be easily fooled by a flat picture. You become boring sometimes.
    First, it isn't easily fooled with the latest algorithms but that is besides the point.

    As I said face identification was used long before FaceID but as a convenience feature. It was never used as a security feature and why I believe you could never use it to authorise a payment for example. Other biometrics handle that.

    However, just having the option on a non-FaceID iPhone would be welcome for many users. Options are nice. Remember, 'security' isn't the idea! Convenience is!
    To your surprise Face ID is used to authorize a payment today, authorizing payments is one the reasons of Face ID’s security. If Face ID wasn’t secure banks would reject Apple Pay. Face ID coupled with Apple Pay got the security seal from the banks, where are you living to not understand that?

    Security is well the idea, it is almost all idea behind such a personal item as a smartphone. Data Protection Directive and alike, EU is struggling to provide the most secure digital life to citizens like you, you just cannot ridicule security under the pretext of convenience. Face ID is both secure and convenient. Convenience precedes security and it is a prerequisite for security, since the human is the worst factor in implementing a security scheme. If it is not convenient, it is not secure either. This is why Apple didn’t move Touch ID behind the phone. Instead of implementing it in such an inconvenient way, they removed it altogether until a more convenient implementation on a full screen iPhone. If you want to philosophize on technology I can feed you during hours and hours but I hope you have better things to do.
    If you want security you use accepted secure measures. There are a few to choose from. They are all trade-offs to a degree.

    But what does security have to do with convenience? Nothing.

    And if convenience includes a level of security but not enough to authorise a bank payment, your options grow bigger. There are tradeoffs to consider. Should iPhone 8 series users be denied the option? Even understanding the lower security angle? Simply because their phones do not have 3D depth sensing?

    Virtually the entire Android flagship world offers the feature. It was great before FaceID arrived and it's still great now. And by the way, the 'contextual' part of face detection was also implemented long before FaceID. As was eye tracking to kmow if you were actually looking at the screen or not (to turn it off for power saving).

    What is your point with 'FaceID can authorise payments today'? The Mate 20 Pro does exactly the same thing today. I suppose some Xiaomi phones too. Other phones simply ask for a fingerprint.

    Appreciating convenience has absolutely nothing to do with ridiculing anything. 

    Security is security.
    Convenience is convenience.

    If convenience comes with a degree of security, it is simply a plus.

    Where on earth did you get the idea of ridiculing?

    If convenience is a prerequisite for security, why did (does?) Apple allow users to NOT set a passcode? Convenience can lead to NO security. That said, in the trade-offs involved in security, convenience, reliability, accuracy and speed are important factors.

    Rear mounted fingerprint sensors were/are purely a case of user preference. IMO, the best place for them. I love them on the back and have debunked countless claims to the contrary (often from people who have never even used one).

    However, you are drifting from what you originally said, namely that no other phone had made good use of 3D depth sensing technology and that Android vendors had given up on face identification.

    Both affirmations are incorrect.

    OK everyone in these forums know that you are unfalsifiable and I have no time to waste with your repetitively and perpetually identical claims. How many banks endorse Huawei payments isn’t Xiaomi the worst of all with advertising-stuffed OS and apps impossible to remove macOS applications got instant iPhone input since Mojave iPhone allows to remove a password not because it is more convenient that way but because password is not needed and even dangerous for kids iOS had AirPlay since a decade and that’s it you reached your quota.
    edited July 2019 StrangeDays
  • Reply 79 of 91
    macplusplusmacplusplus Posts: 2,111member
    Rayer said:
    elijahg said:
    jdw said:
    The continued presence of the "notch" coupled with what consumers perceive as the biggest bang for the buck is no doubt driving this.
    The notch doesn't concern me personally, but the price does. I'll always (within reason) be loyal to Apple, but more and more people are looking at Apple's £1000 phones and thinking "nah, you know what, I'm going to switch to Android," where they get 75% of the features for 25% of the price. Some of the Chinese Android phones really are surprisingly good, even at the £250 price bracket. My friend's £250 Xiaomi has incredible low-light camera performance. Makes the Xs look like something from 5 years ago.

    Current iPhone toting friends are either holding off on a 5s sized device, or as I am, cheaper phones. The flagship 6s was £650 which was pretty good bang for your buck. It was way better than any other phone then. The flagship Xs is now £1000, but hardware wise is it really that much better than the competition? Is it really that much better than the 6s? Software is of course much better than Android, but that was already factored into the £650 iPhone's cost. The Xs is certainly not £350 better than my 6s was at the time.
    Both the notch and the price keep me from considering an iPhone. There is no reason for the notch to be there. When you look at the top of the iPhone to the bottom of the notch, it is the same height or less than all the other iPhones that came before it. So what did it gain you? Nothing good. Now videos are either cut into or you have a black bar where one would have been anyway if they didn't have the notch. I currently have an almost 2 year old Pixel 2 and refused to update to the Pixel 3 because they raised the price $150 without adding $150 in value. I would have considered the iPhone XR because the price is slightly better than the P3 and probably going to be better than the P4, but not as long as there is a notch 
    You don’t lose much with the notch but you gain the convenience and security of Face ID. Videos or photos are affected by the notch only when they are zoomed, otherwise the user interface doesn’t let the notch obstruct the content. It is a prerequisite for an app to adapt to iPhone X UI rules. OK it is not the best design this time but the convenience of Face ID will already make you forget the notch. Apple might preserve the bezels for Face ID until they get to a fully notchless design IMHO, but they made it that way and that is not a big deal or a deal breaker.
    edited July 2019 StrangeDays
  • Reply 80 of 91
    hexclockhexclock Posts: 1,089member
    bigtds said:
    LOL.... You apparently either didn't read what I wrote or it right over your head.   I said:   "He doesn't know a single kid, not one, who isn't using an iPhone or equivalent".
    That doesn't make him elitist.  It makes him normal.
    GeorgeBMac said:
     "I think my 12 year old grandson may serve as a good example of what's going on:

    He does not know a single kid (not one!) who doesn't have and use Apple products:   iPhones, iPads, iPods, Apple Watches, etc....   while many of their parents do use other (Samsung) products.   But the kids wouldn't be caught dead carrying a Samsung phone.

    Part of that is the prestige factor of Apple.   But most of it is the social networking that Apple enables with FaceTime and iMessage which the kids rely heavily on to communicate with each other.  Without an iPhone, iPad or iPod they are outcasts from their social network."

    Your words, not mine.
    Yes, my words -- which you totally spun to say he's an eliitist, spoiled kid when what I did actually say was:   He is totally, completely normal because they ALL have iPhones and IF THERE WAS A KID WITHOUT AN iPHONE, he would be out of the loop.   But as I have said twice now -- there is no such kid.   They ALL have iPhones or the equivalent.  Every.  Single.  One. Of.  Them.   Please write that on the blackboard 50 times so that it sinks in.

    You can disaprove if it makes you happy.   But you can't change reality to suit you.   Sorry.
    My brother-in-law and his wife both use (and love) Android phones, but their 3 kids ALL have iPhones, AirPods, MacBooks, etc. 
    Same for my nieces and nephew. American teens overwhelmingly prefer iPhones. 
    This article is from last year but I doubt the numbers have changed much. 

    https://www.businessinsider.com/apple-iphone-popularity-teens-piper-jaffray-2018-4
    edited July 2019
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